The Sun.
London, England, 1860-02-11 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, r SA.TURDAtr EVENING, FEBRUARY 11, 1860.

changeable. There is a power of unbounded supply of wine
if you will only alter your law, and there is a power, I
won't say of unbounded demand, but of an enormously in
creased demand, for this most useful and valuable commo-
dity. (Hear.) Now, I think cause enough has been shown
for an alteration in the present system of wine duties. But
I beseech the committee to remember the immense masses
of evil which are connected with that system. Look at the
fraud and adulteration to which it gives rise. (Hear, hear.)
Many of the houses engaged in the wino trade bear as high
a character as any in England ; but those gentlemen will
tell you of the difficulties they have to encounter in hold-
ing their ground against persons of inferior character who
are brought into that trade. And why do persons of infe-
rior character embark in it ? Because your law invites
them to do so. (Hear, hear.) Because the restrictive
operation of your tariff is so severe that it affords tempta-
tions which they cannot resist to counterfeit the article ou
which yon have laid such heavy duties. (Hear, hear.)
That is the way in which the duties work ; and let me, in
concluding my remarks on this subject, ask the commit-
tee to consider one thing more. We hear of the rich
man's luxuries and of contemplated reduction of duty
upon articles which the poor man does not consume.
Now, I make my appeal to the friends of the
poor man. There is a time which comes to all of us—the
time, I mean, of sickness—when wine becomes a common
necessary. (Hear, hear.) What kind of wine is adminis-
tered to the poor man in this country ? You have got a
law which makes it impossible for the poor man when he is
sick to obtain the comfort and support derived from good
wine, unless he is fortunate enough to live in the imme-
diate neighbourhood of some charitable and rich friend.
(Hear.) Consult the medical profession; ask what sort of
wine is supplied to bo Ards of guardians in this country ; go
on board the Queen's ships and see the wine supplied there.
Some time ago I had the honour of being on board her
Majesty's ship Scourge, at the time when an accident had
happened to one of the sailors. I wont see the man when
he was recovering from the effects of an operation. " What
wine do you give him ?" I asked. " Wo are forced to give
him the wine of our own mess," the surgeon told me ; " we
cannot give him the wine supplied to the Queen's ships."
He insisted on my tasting the ship wino, and certainly it
was with great difficulty I succeeded in swallowing part of
a glass. (A laugh.) Now, this wine is taken out of bond,
and pays no duty I but your system of duty vitiates the
entire trade, and, except with regard to the higher and most
expensive class of wines, makes it almost impossible to ob-
tain a sound or wholesome article. (Hear, hear.) Well,
I don't myself think that, under those circumstances, the
Government can require much authority for making pro-
posals which will lead to an effectual diminution of these
duties. (Hear, hear.) I believe I have now gone through
the principal heads of the commercial treaty with France.
I do not think that the friends of free trade, or those who
are anxious respecting the revenue, will fine fault with the
provisions of that treaty. (Hear, hear.) I believe myself
that you never were called upon to make asacrifice—that is,
an immediate sacrifice—of revenue which promised to bo
more fruitful of good. (Cheers.) I believe that the trade
which will be created will be immense ; and I know very
well that the expedition of trade and the economy brought
about in the public establishments by abolishing the duties
on manufactured goods will form results of no common.
value. (Hear, hear.) Again, everybody appreciates faci-
lity of personal intercourse with the Continent, and the
changes we propose in our tariff will immensely facilitate
that intercourse, by enabling the Customs' authorities to
withdraw the greater part of the annoying restraints which
are now found necessary. (Cheers.) Sir, I cannot pass
from the subject of the French treaty without paying a
tribute of respect to two persons at least who have been the
main authors of it. (Hear, hear.) I am bound to bear
this witness at any rate with regard to the Emperor of the
French—that he has given the most unequivocal proofs of
sincerity and earnestness in the progress of this great work,
work not mainly prosecuted for th purpose of the English
alliance, but with a view to commercial reforms at home,
and to the advantage and happiness of his own people.
(Cheers.) With regard to Mr. Cobden, speaking as I
goat
a time when every angry passion has passed away, I can
help expressing our obligations to him for the labour he has,
at no small personal sacrifice, bestowed upon a measure
which he, not the least among the apostles of free trade, be-
lieves to be one of the greatest triumphs free trade has ever
achieved. (Cheers.) It is a great privilege for any man
who, having 15 years ago rendered to his country one im-
portant and signal service, now enjoys the singular good
fortune of having had it in his power—undecorated, bear-
ing no mark of rank or ef title from his Sovereign, or from
the people—to perform another signal service in the same
Cause for the benefit of, I hope, a not ungrateful country.
(Cheers.) The point to which I have now brought the
committee in this, to them, I fear, laborious inquiry is this
—I have asked them to sacrifice X 1,190,000 of the existing
revenue in order to effect a relief to the consumer of, I think,
£1,737,000 by giving effect to the provisions of the treaty
with France. That treaty would bring about a great re-
form in the Customs' establishments of the country. At
the same time, it would not effect a reform which would
have any pretensions to the character of completeness, and
there are many other duties of a description which we think
call for the attention of Parliament, and by the reduction
or removal of which immense advantage might be conferred
upon the country. (Hear.) I have thought it best to sepa-
rate them entirely from those articles which we deal with
by the treaty, with a view to the convenience of the com-
mittee and their clearer understanding of the whole subject.
But this being the state of the case, and the Government
wishing to give, as far as may be, the character of complete-
ness to their reform of the Customs—which, indeed, is essen-
tial to the attainment of some of the objects in view—l now
come to their supplemental measure of Customs reform.
They intend to propose to the committee a further change
in the Customs' laws, which will entail at first a loss of
£910,000, giving at the same time a relief to the consumer
of about £1,040,000 ; but they propose also, in a manner
which I will explain to the committee, to meet the charge
of that loss by certain impositions upon trade of a character
which, I hope, will not be deemed exceptional. I will take
these two subjects next. They form the supplemental part
of the Customs' reform proposed by the Government. This
second portion of the Customs' reform contains many aboli-
tions and some reductions of the duty. I will read the prin-
cipal abolitions contemplated. By-the-by, there is one
point respecting the French treaty—l mean the pro-
Neal to give !immediate effect to the changes on the
English side, and the postponement of the changes
intended by France—which I ought to have noticed.
The provision:on this subject was not pressed upon us
by France; on the contrary, we have reason to believe
that she would have given us the time which she was com-
pelled to require for herself, but the arrangement I have
stated to the committee was owing to the deliberate judgment
of the English Government that it would be on the whole
more advantageous to the English people. (Cheers.) I now
come to the abolition of duties which form the second or sup-
jilementary
part of the measure we propose for the alteration
of the Customs' duties. We propose to abolish entirely and
immediately the duty on butter, which yields £95,000
(oheers)—the duty on tallow, which yields £87,000: the duty
On cheese, which yields £44,ooo—(cheers)—on oranges and
lemons, yielding £32,000; on eggs, £22,000; on nuts,
X 12,0043 ; on nutmegs £ll,OOO ; paper, 10,000 ; liquorice,
£9,000; dates, £7,000; and various other minor articles,
the total of these abolitions amounting to £382,000. I pro-
pose likewise a reduction of duties upon five articles of great
importance, one of which strikes at the principal differential
duty, except those which we have killed by the French
Peaty—namely, the duty en timber. (Cheers.) I propose to
reduce the duty on timber from 7s. 6d. and 15e., to the colo-
nial rate of Is. and 2s. (Cheers.) There will be a relief of
£400,000 to the consumer, but a considerable recovery b
increased consumption. The next article, the duty on which
propose to• reduce, with the approval f the house, is the
duty on currants. (Hear, hear.) There is no article of greater
importance to the mass of the community. (Hear.) All
those of the labouring classes who are in good circumstances
are large consumers of currants. The duty on currants ought
to have been reduced many years ago, but it was impossible
in consequence of the almost entire failure of the crop, which
made it impracticable to act upon the consumption by the
reduction of the duty. The duty on currants it now 15s. 9d. ;
we propose to reduce it to 7s. per cwt., which will involve a
loss of £170,000. This, however, will be compensated by
increased consumption. We propose to reduce the duty on
raisins from 10s. to 7s. ; on figs from 10s. to 7s. I also pro-
pose to reduces duty with regard to which I shall have to
give a further explanation—the duty on hops. I propose to
reduce the duty on hops from 455. to 14s. (Cheers.) The
total amount of these reductions will be £650,000, and the
abolitions £382,000. There will be a small article of black-
ing, which wilt be postponed, making a gross loss of
'V1435,000, but the increase of consumption will only entail
a total loss, as estimated, of £910,000. I will presently show
ttie state in which these changes, if they are adopted en-
. tire; will leave the tariff; but, for the present, I will
4 go on to state the mode in which the Government pro-
;Hemp to supply the revenue to compensate for the loss
that will follow these changes. (Sensation.) I am afraid,
irons the sensation that is expressed, that I may cause some
disappointment, for, in point of fact, I am not now going to
Ell up the great chasm that lay before us a short time ago,
but to deal with the little chasm created by parting with
£910,000. (A laugh.) The general principle of the measure
am about to propose will be an extension of a very small
kind of taxation, and which may be called a penny taxa-
tion. The penny taxation has answered and will answer.
At any rate there is one kind of " penny wisdom" that is
hot." pound folly," and that is alike popular and productive
We propose to levy upon all goods imported and exported,
by way of registration fee, a duty of Id. a package. It has
Wten been said and argued that when the tariff was cleared
if so .many articles, a small duty ought to have been retained
to cover the cost of registration, statistics, and various ser•
vices performed on behalf of trade by the Customs' estab-
lishment. That is an argument of very considerable force,
but there is one argument of conclusive weight the other
way, which has determined Governments conclusively not
• ' to retain these duties on the tariff, and that is, if yin' retain
small duties on your tariff they are attended with all the in-
cidents of a large duty. It requires the same sort of inspec-
tion, the same following, the same delay, and the same sys-
tem of accounts as if you were levying large and valuable
duties. But none of these objections apply to the measure I
, now propose. It would be a measure of the simplest kind,
levied to the amount of :1(1. per packet, and, on good's in
`bulk, according to the unit under which they are entered.
There must be a few cases of raw materials, of salt, of coals
and corn, in which it will be necessary to alter the unit to
prevent the Id. from becoming a heavy charge ; because,
not being entered in small parcels, but by the whole cargo,
and not being warehoused, they give very little trouble to
the Customs. But that will be matter of consideration in
the bill, and it will be for the Executive Government, in the
Administration of the law, to place the matter under general
rules. But what an idea it gives of the wealth and power of
,his country that to levy a small duty of ld. per package on
goods imported and exported, and in proportion en goods
in bulk, will produce £300,000 a year. (Hear.) That will be
levied without any reference to goods whatever, and with-
out any detention or examination. It will be taken off the
capers as one of the articles incidental to the receipt
despatch of the ship. The next charge I propose to the
,
11°Itge to enact is the charge upon e,ertain operations nowper-
fortaed ii warehouses. The committee are aware that the
original object of the warehousing system was to enable the
nnporters of goods to obtain two most important advan-
tages—one the postponement of the payment of these duties,
and the other to retain for themselves the option to the
latest moment between entering the goods for home con-
sumption and entering them for a foreign market. With
neither of these do we propose to interfere, or to saddle them
with any charge whatever. But in consequence of the
system of heavy and restrictive duties which has been pur-
sued in regard to spirits, and more especially in regard 'to
wine, there is a Most complicated system of operations of
'every kind performed in bond at a great disadvantage in
:respect to delay, in respect to less of time, to the risk of
fraud and the loss of revenue, which is a loss to the coun-
try Bat, great as are these evils, they are souse of the
'necessary results of the state of our law, which is now' re-
verting, to a low state of duties and a simple arrangement.
is, therefere, clear that all these extraordinary operations
which lie beyond the proper scope of the warehousing
.76tern, and ware of the nature of additional accommeaiss
tiers, should be subject to some charge. We, therefore, pro-
. rose to lay a moderate sum chargeable on the removal,
ttling, vatting, "fortifying"--I do not know all the jer-
: rill of the syetem—on all those extra operations, which
siel
tve grown up as exerescenc,es on the waouse system.
-4
Committee will be glad to hear thatreh we eta and in

this system of charge a mode of solving a very difficult
question, which has excited a great deal of interest in many
important communities. It is known as the question of
inland bonding. The great inland towns of this country
have always complained that they are excluded from the
facilities given to almost mere hamlets, and in many cases
to places of no importance as measured by population. But
under the system we propose certain charges will attach to
removals in warehouses, whether they are on the coast or
in the interior, which will place them all on a
proper footing. Of course, I do not mean to say that
the warehousing system can be applied to every town
in the country. The Government will have due regard
to the result of such a system, and to the power of
accommodation offered for the purpose, but the principle
of tho plan will be to return to the country the cost
of the warehousing establishment, to enable them to
deal with equity and justice with those little ports that
enjoy these privileges and that happen to be ports within
the meaning of the term, and at the same time to enable
great communities like Manchester, Birmingham, and other
large towns, which are fairly entitled to the demand of a
concession of this kind, to obtain these advantages. Upon
this I expect to gain £120,000. The next change I am about
to propose is one upon which it will be necessary for the
house to give a vote to-night, in conformity with our ordi-
nary practice. I propose to levy a duty of 6s. per cwt. upon
chicory or any other vegetable production to be used with
coffee, as a protection to the coffee revenue, which has not
grown and cannot grow as long as an article that assumes
the appearance of coffee is admitted free, while coffee itself
pays a high duty. It will be requisite that the Customs
shall be iu a condition to give immediate effect to this reso-
lution, and I will hand the resolution to you, Mr. Massey,
as I go along. I may mention that this will entail the die.
advantage of Iva excise charge upon home-grown chicory,
but that is not a serious matter, because the growth of chi-
cory in this country has almost died out. Some years ago
many thousand acres were employed in the growth of chi-
cory. but at the present day the whole quantity under cul-
tivation is under 500 acres. The duty on chicory, together
with the improvement of the revenue from coffee, will yield
£90,000 per annum, and that will bring iheso minor Cus-
toms charges to £510,000. I will now briefly run over the
changes we would ask the committee to adopt in the In-
land Revenue. A stamp of ld. on notes of sale of foreign
and colonial produce, and on brokers' contract notes, will
yield £lOO,OOO. A stamp of 3d on stock warrants, a re-
duction of the agreement stamp from 2s. 6d. to 6d , with
the repeal of exemptions, will yield £20,000. The next
change which we propose is to give to eating-houses of
all descriptions, whether under that name or under the
category of pastrycooks, a license, for which they will pay
at a very low rate, with the power of taking a license at
their option from the Excise, to be had simply on the pay-
ment of a certain sum of money, and subject to no other
limitation or restriction, for the purpose of authorising them
to sell wine or beer. (Hear, hear.) We think it is essential,
in giving effect to the changes in the wine duties, that this
sort of facility should be provided, in connexion with the
sale of eatables, wherever the trade may be carried on ; and
we also look on it as a change favourable to sobriety—(hear,
hear)—for the man who can get his glass of wine or beer at
the same time with his necessary food in an easy manner is
less likely to resort to places where he would be tempted to
indulge to excess. (Hear, hear.) We also propose that
the duty should be doubled upon any house that keeps open
after 12 o'clock at night. Then there are a variety of very
limited minor changes with which I do not know that I
need trouble the committee, such as on heritable bends in
Scotland, &c. One change, however, I will mention. We
propose to reduce the duty on game certificates, which it is
hoped will be satisfactory. (Cheers.) Only 34,000 game
certificates are taken out every year. The price is very
high, and no person can shoot for a day at any period of the
season without paying the price of a certificate for the whole
season. But the immediate and obvious ground for dealing
with it is the notorious fact that vast numbers of persons of
almost all classes who do shoot at all assume to themselves
the liberty of shooting without a certificate. (Laughter.)
We are not able to catch some 500 of them in the course of
the year, but I hope that so many will not escape under the
now system. We anticipate that while we shall give relief
to those who buy certificates to the amount of £50,000, we
shall have no leas but even a small gain of something like
£lO,OOO a-year. Instead of £4 for a certificate for the sea-
son, it may he had, if taken out in August, for £3 ; if taken
out on or after the Ist of October, £2 ; and if taken out on
or after the Ist of December, £l. (A laugh, and "Hear,
hear.") As to the measure of the right hon. gentleman
opposite which was adopted with regard to stamps on
cheques, we have not yet had sufficient experience to test
its full effects, either fiscally or otherwise ; but I think it is
quite clear that if it continues, as it is likely to do, at least
till we see our way more clearly, there should be no exemp-
tion for cheques drawn by the person himself. It is not worth
while keeping up the distinction, and a small sum will be
gained by its abolition. We, therefore, propose to remove
it. (Hear, hear) The stamp on leases will yield £7,000;
all personal estate passing by will, under general appoint-
ment, will become subject to probate duty, which will yield
£30,000, and the repeal of the exemption of the convey-
ances of building societies will give £5,900. The excise
duty on chicory will yield £5,000, and a stamp on extracts
from the registers of births, deaths, and marriages, £3,000.
I may now sum up. The Customs will give £510,000,
which, added to £386,000, the produce of the items of Inland
Revenue I have referred to, will give a total of £896,000.
The next item will give pleasure to the committee. It is
not a tax but a saving, and a saving which of all others
will, I am sure, be most acceptable to Parliament and to
the people. It is a savingfor the year on tho Customs Esta-
blishment .of £50,000, which will be the beginning of a
greater saving in consequence of the measures we are going
to adopt. (Cheers.) There will also be a saving in the
Inland Revenue, if the measures we propose should be
agreed to, of 536,000. There will, therefore, be altogether
£86,000 in saving and £896,000 in taxes, making together
£982,000, which will more than replace the revenue we pro-
pose to withdraw in the second part of our scheme of amend- '
ment. (Cheers.) Lot me recall to the committee the pre-
cise point at which we stand. We venture to say that the
country might fairly expect under the circumstances of +
the present year a reduction of the indirect taxes chosen
with the greatest care for the purpose, to an extent some-
thing like that which is represented by the amount of an-
nuities now falling in, £2,146,000—1 mean to that extent
in loss to the revenue, but to a much greater extent in relief
to consumers Of that £2,146,000 we have disposed of
about £1,190,000 by the French treaty, so far as the plans
of the Government are concerned ; and by way of supple-
ment to that treaty we have also proposed a further mea-
sure involving the loss of £910,000, with compensation in
the shape of new charges and savings to the extent of
£952,000. Consequently, there are still about £1,000,000
of remission, which, in the view of the Government, is due
to the trade and industry of the country on the principles I
have stated. The question is, where shall the reduction be
made ? As we have frankly admitted, we do not think the
greatest benefit would be conferred either on the nation at
large or on the labouring classes by an immediate return
to the minimum duty on sugar and tea; and though we
might take either of the two, we could not take both. As
we do not think that is the direction in which relief may
be best proposed, I think the committee will readily guess
what I am about to propose—the abolition of the excise
duty on paper. (Cheers.) There is only one argument
I know against its abolition, and that is, that the revenue
derived from it is a growing revenue. The reason why
it is so is that we live in a country with a growing
literature and a growing trade ; and, as neither litera-
ture nor trade can be carried on without paper, it
follows that as long as the bountry grows in literature and
trade the paper duty must increase, however impolitic it
may be in its operation. But let the committee briefly con-
sider with me the reasons for the repeal of the paper duty.
First of all, I do not hesitate to say that one reason for this
repeal, not perhaps conclusive in itself, but ce"tainly far
from immaterial i-st the view of any British Ministry, is
that the duty has been condemned by the House of Parlia-
ment. (Hear, hear.) And how has it been condemned?
Net by any chance majority, not by the Opposition hap-
pening to overpower the resisting Government, but with
the full concurrence of the responsible Executive of the day.
(Hear, hear.) On the 21st of June, 1858, my right hon.
friend the President of the Board of Trade made this mo-
tion—" That it is the opinion of this house that the main-
tenance of the excise duty on paper, as a perm:tient source
of re-venue, will be impolitic." The Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer objected to a second resolution proposed by my
hon. friend for the purpose of striking the nail a little fur-
ther home ; and on the second resolution being withdrawn,
the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the right hon. gentleman
opposite (Mr. Disraeli) adopted the first resolution, and said
that it required not immediate, but early consideration, and
it was adopted unanimously by the house. It is a question
whether it is altogether a wise practice to adopt resolutions
that eondensn duties which cannot at the time be repealed,
and I am afraid subsequent squabbling would be apt to
butju d hmeein'atc
it
at ha amt
a theter
ilail oeul
es e.
og
fr
Commonsgrow t o of shuacsh
recorded
ment in the case we are now considering. a
bad d_ But u
that is not
all. The paper duty is in many respects _
p rpractice
itchea;t
will show presently that it is untenable. (Hear, hear.) In
aorta, and
while
how does it operate ? it presses on the p • rer
owin to the
the firetailace, as a uniform duty on a very variable artiele,
while we find that the duty on fine payers ,
the arse
growth of literature, is rapidly increasing, on coarse
sorts it does not advance. Look at its operation on litera-
ture. On denr books, which are published for the wealthy,
it is a very light duty; on books brought out in large
quantities by:enterprising publishers for the middl
lower classes 'it is a very heavy and a very oppressiveedutny.
I think the Committee will admit that it is a most desirable
and legitimate object to promote the extension of cheap
literature. I 'do not speak of newspapers alone,
but of journals and publications which, in common
with all other literature we have seen so lately enlarged,
and the character of which I am bound to say since
the penny stamp on newspapers was removed has been
so highly creditable to the conductors of that which is
called the cheap press. (Cheers.) It is hardly possible to
describe, except by details on which I shall not venture,
the manner in which the paper duty obstructs skill and en-
terprise. But it has this characteristic, which I bog to call
to the special attention of the, committee. The material
with which it deals is a material of almost boundless scope,
for nearly everything which is fibrous may in cue manner
or another bo made to serve the purpose of paper. I spoke
just now of the production of British and spurious wines. I
sin told that in an inland town there is a manufacture of
British champagne. It is made from rhubarb, and the re-
commendation is, that after you have got all the champagne
out of the rhubarb, tho fibre should be made into paper.
(Laughter.) That is a very good recommendation. I be-
lieve, really and seriously, that whatever is grown with
fibre would, by skill and enterprise, be inade available for
the purposes of paper if it were not for the necessary ob-
structions offered by the regulations of the Excise depart-
ment. I do not think the committee is aware of the enor-
mous variety of purposes to which the use of this material
may, in one form or another, be applied. I have a list of
69 trades, in not one of which any one would guess it is
used. It is largely used by anatomical machinists to make
artificial limbs, by telescope makers, by boot and shoe
makers, by cap manufacturers for the foundation of hats
and caps, forming nearly all the peaks and many of the tops
which look like_varnish (laughter), by china and porcelain
manufacturers, by coach-makers, by comb-makers, by doll-
makers (most dolls being made of a material into the com-
position of which paper enters), in shipbuilding, in making
optical instruments, in pictures and looking-glasses, in
portmanteaus, in Sheffield goods, and in teapots. (Laugh-
tor.) One manufacturer said he had made panels for doors
from paper, and he looked forward, above all, to making
carriages of paper when the duty was off. Another manu-
facturer, who is asked into what combinations paper may
be made to enter, says—and I think it is a very just and
forcible observation—" Who can fix the limit to ingenious
combinations when we see indiarubber, for instance, being
made into strong and durable combs and other articles of
that sort?" Only this morning I was informed that paper
pipes are, made, prepared with bitumen, and capable of
standing'a pressure of 3001 b. of water to the inch. These
are pa,rtial but not uninteresting details, and I think that to
which they bear witness is the unbounded expansion of which
this trade is capable, and the way in which it will benefit the
working classes by means of abolishing thisduty—not only
because tisisy will get cheaper paper, which must advantage
every man Who furnishes a cottage and every purchaser of tea
and sugar, info the peat 9f Isvhiph it enters when tea and sugar
are wrapped in ; but by prating i metio4 an immense
trade it wsli. gisrp a greater, further stimulns to the el:114114
for the labow a the pottntry. Above alit lot one bay the great

advantage of this change, in my opinion, and in the opinion
of her Majesty's Government, is, that you will promote a
diffused demand and a demand for rural labour; that you
will not merely stimulate the process of massing people in
great centres of industry, but the demand for labour all over
the country. Where there are streams, where there are vil-
lages, where there is pure and good air and tolerable access,
there are the places where the paper manufacture delights
to rest itself. And there is a gentleman, a member of this
house, second to no man in England for enterprise, who did
within the last few years illustrate the effect of the paper
manufacture on the poor-rate. (Hear, hear.) The paper
duty has extinguished all the small paper manufacturers.
It has concentrated the trade in a few great hands. Village
mills are hardly to be found. I want to see tkese village
mills spring up again and flourish. (Cheers.) The case I
quote, to show the effect of paper manufacture upon the
poor-rate, is that of a member of this house, who a few years
ago, in reference to the supply of paper to a well-known
periodical, established a paper manufactory at Rickmans-
worth, and within three or four years the poor-rates of
Rickmansworth were diminished by one-half. (Cheers.)
That is a very telling and a very creditable argument. I
must state one other point. I told the committee that this
duty was rapidly becoming untenable, and I am bound to
warn them, as I did with respect to the wine duties, that
such is the state of things to which it tends. It is not
only invidious to maintain it when every other duty of the
same class has been abolished, but the law is rapidly beeom-
in.. untenable. The Inland Revenue Department are com-
pletely agreed that there ought to be a repeal of the duty.
I asked the agitators against the duty to furnish their res.-
sons in a series of short propositions to see how far they
could be admitted by the Inland Revenue. They sent me 15
arguments, and I sent them to the Board of Inland Revenue.
The heads of that department said that two of the preposi-
tions were questions of political economy upon which they
would give no opinion, but that with regard to all the other
13 they agreed with the agitators. (Hess, hear.) You
cannot undertake to maintain the duty beyond a certain
time, because such are the difficulties raised as to what is
paper and what is not paper, as to what are sheets of sub-
stance and what are not, that not only is there the greatest
soreness among the manufacturers, but the officers of
revenue ; and the maintainers of the law will soon be
placed in the ridiculous position in which they were
placed when unable to say what was a newspaper.
(Hear.) The paper duty must sooner or later follow the
newspaper stamp. We say sooner and not later, and that
it should follow now. (Hear, hear.) It is proposed that
the paper duty shall be abolished after the Ist of July next,
and that a drawback shall be allowed on stocks in the hands
of the dealers in the usual manner. There will be a loss by
the repeal of the paper duty in 1860-1861 of 11,000,001
The repeal of the paper duty will enable us to take some
other measures which are very desirable to clear the tariff
of all those articles connected with furnishing paper, writ-
ing paper, books, prints, and engravings, and it will greatly
simplify the laborious and difficult task which the Custom-
house officers have to perform in searching the luggage of
passengers for pirated books—affording to possessors of a
particular-kind of property a protection which is afforded to
no other, and ought not to be afforded to them. Of course,
whenever the Custom-house officers observe an illegal com-
modity it will be their duty to stop it, but an officious and
disagreeable description of search will no longer be neces-
sary. (Hear, hear.) The abolition of the paper duty will
save £20,000 a year in theestablishment of the Board of In-
land Revenue, and will enable us to adopt another measure
of some importance which I will in a very few words de-
scribe, and that is the abolition of the impressed stamp on
newspapers. The impressed stamp on newspapers is at-
tended with difficulties which, if I were dealing with the
subject alone, would take a long time to explain. It recog-
nises the exceptional status of newspapers, and again raises
the question " What is a newspaper ?' The Post-office au-
thorities find it impossible to draw a distinction between
publications entitled to the impressed stamp and other pe-
riodicals. It involves a great deal of unrequited service ;
and nothing is more absurd than that when the Post-office
carries newspapers, or any other printed matter not exceed-
ing four ounces in weightfor a penny, they should be liabl
after a stamp is impressed, to carry it half a. dozen times
over for the same money. It requires a distinct code for
itself. There are some 20 special regulations which every
ene is bound to observe, but which nOloody does observe,
to secure the condition upon which the privilege is given;
and this privilege, as to the mode of stamping newspapers,
and as to postage, is a privilege most inconvenient to the
parties and to the revenue. You are obliged, on the
one hand, to keep up an establishment for no other pur-
pose than stamping the paper for newspapers, and news-
paper proprietors are, on the other hand, obliged to cart
all their paper to the establishment where this depart-
ment of revenue is raised, in order to get it stamped.
I cannot but think that that is a system fraught with great
inconvenience and loss; it is inconvenient to the pro-
prietors of newspapers, and involves a loss of public money,
and, therefore, it furnishes a strong argument for the abo-
lition of the stamp. We propose, therefore, that the stamp
should bo abolished on the day on which he alteration in
the stamp laws takes place. (Hear, hear.) But there are
certain papers that take the advantage at certain times and
among them that great paper, the Ti,Les, of a three half-
penny stamp. It would be a hardship to those papers if we
called upon them to pay a twopenny postage, where they
now pay only three halfpence, and this difficulty we pro-
pose to get over in the simple way of introducing a three
halfpenny rate on the principle of the book postage, which
is four ounces, Id. ; six ounces, lid. ; eight ounces, 3d. ;
and so on. This is a change which I think will at once
recommend itself to the general favour of the house. (Hear,
hear.) I have now stated all the remissions and changes
of duty which the Government propose to recommend to the
house; but in view of the lrevenue it is necessary that I
should still refer to some articles which are connected with
the departments of Excise and taxes. I have mentioned
the article of hops ; and I have now to state that we pro-
pose to alter the system of hop credits. That system is one
that is indefensible in principle, and has nothing to recom-
mend it in point of convenience. As things now are, the
grower of hops who gets possession of his hops in August
and September and sells them in Ocober is not called on to
pay the duty till next May, when he pays one half, and the
other half in November, when he has got ill hand another
crop. This is a system that is highly disadvantageous, and
therefore we propose as a substitute that the hop grower,
who as a general rule has parted with his crop in October
or November, shall pay the duty on the following Ist of
January. As by taking away the hop credits we to some
extent put a pressure on the grower, and as we are going to
admit the foreign hop grower to competition with him, we
propose to give a partia remission of the duty, which will
stand no longer at 19s. 7d., but at 14s. 7d. per cwt. I may
also mention the change in respect of malt. Malt is at pre-
sent prohibited. We propose to remit the prohibition, and
substitute a Customs' duty of 3s. per bushel, being 2s. 9d.
and 5 per cent. in reference to the Excise. In consi-
dering the effect of compensation it is important to
consider what will be the relation of the change on the
wine duties to the duty on malt. When the change in the
wine duties has taken effect wine of the only description
that can compete with malt will pay a tax a great deal
heavier, and malt will not be subject to any undue
pressure. Let me now bring into one view the altera-
tions which I have stated in detail, and in doing so I must
endeavour to bring clearly before the mind of the commit-
tee three separate sums—let, the entire amount of the re-
mission or relief to the consumers by the adoption of the
plans we propose • 2d, the amount of loss to the revenue
which they entail; 3d, the amount of compensation which
will be derived from the changes in the tariff which we re-
commend for the adoption of the committee. The Customs'
duties under this treaty with France will give relief to the
consumers of a sum of £1,737,000, and a loss to the revenue
of £1,190,000. By the supplemental Customs plan we will
give relief to the consumers of £1,039,000, and there will be
a loss to the revenue of £910,000 ; total relief to the con-
sumers, £2,771,000 ; total loss to the revenue, £2,100,000.
In the Inland Revenue Department there will be a relief
on paper of £1,000,000; on hops, £105,000; and on game
certificates, £50,000; making in all, £1,155,000 ; and a total
loss to the revenue of £990,000. There will thus be a total
relief to the consumers in the Customs and Inland Revenue
Departments of £3,931,000, and of loss to the revenue of
£3,090,000. (Hear.) The amount of compensation by means
of increased consumption may be estimated at £841,000,
and there will be a further compensation by new charges
and savings on establishment's of £982,000, being a total of
£1,823,000. Taking this computation' there will be a net
loss to the revenue for 1860-61 of £2,108,000. I will not
enter now more fully into the question of relief to the con-
sumers, but I believe that the effect of the tariff in 1861-62
will be to enrich the revenue to a much greater extent than,
perhaps, many anticipate. (Hear.) I will now state in a
tow words the effect of those changes in bringing forward
that most desired consummation elan Reformers—a simpli-
fication of the Customs' tariff of the country. The number
of articles subject to Customs' duties in 1842 was 1,052; in
headings numberrto
the
eoo
under
articles,
whole
lr are
ew
nhu mci
1815, 1,163 articles, for I must remind the house that the
first operation of the reform of the tariff was to multiply the
n
h
29 which,
0.
bs)tfrhaarlTltdilyeh:adopted,
ecrt
ho ne
f without
articles
wereqr tui
ce lnecs
sea
remainingplof
oe aai
specified.
increase
Ir
on fora
f.ltehBwseo3f tariffut. hhb
ee.
number of articles was 466 in 18.59, 419. After the changes
now proposed
such as the specification of two or three classes of
will be 48. (Hear.) There are three classes of articles, in-
cluding in all 16, such as sugar, tea, tobacco, wine, coffee,
timber, raisins, &c., which are realitya the only articles
lilstcountervailing yieldingthah)au vrseeisf.
duties
dui:
ltitroieeewewrvev
isteheinnidl
that
cut
nhtebo,
do.
that will be retained on the tariff for purposes of
fi
ta revenue.
iedo n
special Besides
gr
grounds. Thus
hfut
five articlesartieles a
rtehere retained are
ete
•
admit Eau de Cologne free of duty while there
amyahwroreoeaus
1p
eerti i e cerit
C.
nut
faunlrurylos tdstmi
tocnomlri eiaanusts
, and 24 on account of their resemblance to cne or
ooif(
seutHrha account(Hear, hear.)
duty
example,
ht hee ean
revenue will be derived substantially from 15 articles.
justifies the changes we
house reformers will be of opinion
imOuluatreof
rthheatdlellearid,Ofooor
have made. (Hear, hear.
will in every instance strike at
dpiarpeecrt taxation
dutywi
will
lf
ga be o ud
directly
!try Ot,oooaor.
be the means of removing from
rural labour, £1,800,000, or the greater part of 12,000,000,
ill
nTdrewpaty
erhaps its mil—
e, remaining deformi-
ties. There will be on the British tariff, after the adoption
r int
tffhi
ae t
duties,
greatest,te neca,h a
of these changes, nothing whatever in the nature of protec-
udthiuffedeetrare
tive or differential duties, unless you apply that name to the
small charges which will be levied upon timber and corn,
which amounts in general, perhaps, to about 3 per cent.
With that limited exception you will have a final disap-
pearance of all protective and differential duties, and the
consumer will know that every shilling he. pays will go to
the revenue, and not to the domestic as against the foreign
producer. You will have a great extension and increase of
trade, you will have a remission of the principal restraints
upon travellers, and a great reduction in the expenses of
the Customs and Excise Departments. I told you that those
reductions must be brought in by degrees and in detail.
They will nett appear upon the estimates as they are pre-
sented for this year, because it is impossible to foresee, es-
pecially until we know what the decision of Parliament will
be, the precise changes which will be made. The imme-
diate reduction in the Customs department will be £50,000,
in the Excise £86,000 ; and the ultimate reduction upon the
expenses of the departments I expect will be somewhere
about £150,000. That is the nature of the change we pro-
pose in the Customs and Excise duties. It is certainly time
that I should proceed to refer again to the state of the gene-
ral account. (Hear.) It would have been possible to come
to it, perhaps, by a less circuitous route, and, as I stated
before, a shilling income-tax would have squared the ac-
count without any further trouble. I now come to consider
what are the moans by which we propose to square the ac-
count. • I don't pretend to :present to the house a budget
which grapples with all the difficulties of the case. I
don't propose to provide for the Exchequer Bonds—a shil-
ling income-tax perhaps would have done that as well,
(Hear, hear.) I have called the attention of the house to
the fact that wo are going to take awey the six weeks' credit
now allowed to maltstere, which will give us £1,100,000
within the financial year, The hop credit will give us
£300,000 more. The two sums together amount to
£1,400,000. They don't belong to the year, but they are
not borrowed money. They actually belong to the public,
and may be said at present to bo lent out to the producer
without interest, and we propose to take there es 4 esVil
apply them to the purposes y the'
TiTn. Par. 'Von will not,
perhisps, sonsider 'filet there remains , much option to
I have pointed out that a one shilling income-tax

would completely fill the void, and would enable you to
ellispense with the remaining part of the war duties on tea
and sugar. Without any remission of the duties on paper,
and without the slightest attempt to improve your fiscal
laws and extend your trade, you cannot escape with an
income-taxless than the amount at which it now stands,
9d. in the pound. We have proposed to you a remission
which goes to the extent of £4,000,000, and the additional
taxation which we have so far presented, falls entirely upon
trade, and now I will tell you in what manner we propose
I to supply the deficiency which remains. (Hear.) The
charge for 1860-61, as I have stated, is £70,100,000 ; the
income with the tea and sugar duties at their minimum
would have been £60,700,000. Deducting from that the
loss by remissions the amount would be £58,592,000. and
by retaining the tea and sugar duties at their present rates
we shall have an addition of £2,100,000, bringing up the
income to £60,692,000. But when we compare £60,692,100
I with £70,100,000. there is still a deficiency of nearly
I £9,500,000. Against that wo propose to take up the malt
and hop credits, which will give £1,400,000, and we pro-
' pose to renew the income-tax at a rate only higher by one
penny than that which it would. be necessary under any
circumstances to propose—viz., at 10d. in the pound.
(" Hear, hear," from Mr. Bright.) The assessment will
be 10d. in the pound on incomes above £l5O, and 7d. in the
pound below that amount. No new returns will be called
for under the new schedules, and the tax will be taken for
one year only. Both with. regard to that subject and the
duties on tea and sugar we wish to reserve to Parliament
the fullest and freest discretion. Instead of the old system,
under which only half the year wascollected within the year,
though by law three quarters ought to be collected, wo shall
require three quarters to be actually collected. The conse-
quence of that will be, that the income-tax at 10d., with
three quarters collected within the year, will give
£8,472,000. There will remain due, after April, 1861, one
quarter of the income-tax, about £2,250,000, nearly the
same sum as now remains due by law after April, 1860.
There is a slight change which we propose as regards the
mode of assessing railways—assessing them at their head
offices instead of at the various districts through which
they run. I think the house will now understand
how the final balance for the year rests. The revenue,
after:the deductions and remissions, without allowing for
what may be called the war duties on tea and sugar, will be
£58,692,000. I put the tea and sugar duties renewed at
£2,100,000, the malt and hop credits taken up at £1,400,000,
the income-tax for three quarters of the year at £8.472,300.
That brings up the total income to £70,564,000. The total
charge is £70,100,000, which leaves an apparent estimated
surplus of £464,000. As retards the method of proceeding
—as I have already said—f will ask the House to pass the
vote relating to chicory to-night, and the order in which we
will take the other subjects will be this. We shall proceed
first with that portion i'f the Customs' duties which are in-
volved in tho treaty with France,.and we shall begin with
the duties on wines. I cannot overstate to the committee
the importance both to trade and to the revenue of proceed-
ing to deal with these subjects at the earliest possible day.
We should not like to make an unreasonable demand on
the house or on individual members,. and as I now speakon
Friday, we could not ask the House to take an earlier day
than Thursday next ; but I trust that the committee and
individual members will allow of our proceeding on that
day in a matter where despatch is of so great importance.
We should, after that, proceed with the supplementary re-
solutions, or the second part of our plan, relating to to the
Customs' duties ; we should then take the Excise duties,
and after that the duties on tea and sugar. Probablybefore
we get so far we shall have made some progress in the Es-
timates, and it will be then convenient to take the income-
tax.. Without seeking to place on the propositions I have
made a colour more favourable than they may merit, I have
endeavoured to bring strongly and • clearly into view the
most prominent features of the plan of the Government.
We propose an ample provision for the service of the year.
It gives a sanction to the improvement of some subsidiary
resources in consideration of the great demands made on
the people in aid of the ordinary revenue of the year; it in-
volves a high rate of income-tax, and it abandons all en-
deavour to make a financial settlement for a term of years,
which we don't think suited to the existing state of affairs.
Those gentlemen who may entertain a hope of some mate •
rial reduction in our expenditure will be disposed, I think,
to agree in the wisdom and prcpriety of this course. It in-
volves a great reform in our tariff, it invoh-es a large re-
mission of taxation, and last of all, though not least, it in-
volves that commercial treaty with France which, though
objections may be taken to it, we confidently recommend,
not only on moral and social, but on political, fiscal, and
economical grounds. (Hear.) In conclusion, I may say
that I feel a hope which amounts to a persuasion, that this
house, whatever may happen, will not shrink from its duty.
After all it has achieved by resolute courageous commercial
reforms on behalf of tho masses of the people, and not on
on behalf of them alone, but au behalf of every class, on be-
half of the Throne, and of the institutions of the country, I
feel convinced that this house will not refuse to go boldly
on in the direction in which it has already reaped such
honourable rewards. (Chesrs.) By pursuing such a course
as this it will be in your power to scatter blessings among
the people, and blessings which are the best of all blessings,
because you are not forging mechanical helps for mon, to
enable you to do that for them which they ought to do for
themselves; but you are enlarging their moans, you are
giving value to their labour, you are appealing to their sense
of honourable self-dependeace. (Hear, hear.) There were
times of old when Sovereigns made progress through the
land, and when, at the proclamation of their heralds, they
caused to be scattered hears of coin among the people.
That may have been a goodly spectacle, but it is also a
goodly spectacle, in the altered spirit and circumstances of
our times, when a Sovereign is enabled through the wis-
dom of her great Council assembled in Parliament again to
scatter blessings among the people in the shape of wise and
prudent laws, which do not sap in any respect the founda-
tions of duty, but which strike away the shackles from the
arm of industry, which give a new incentive and new reward
to toil, and which win mare and more fur the Throne and
for the institutions of the country the gratitude, the confi-
dence, and the love of tat united people.. (Cheers.) Let
me even say to those who are justly anxious en the subject
of cur national defences that that which stirs the flame of
patriotism in men, that which binds them together, that'
which gives them increased confidence in their rulers, that
which makes them feel and know that they are treated
justly, and that we who represent them are labouring in-
cessantly and earnestly for their good—is in itself no
small, no feeble, and no transitory part of national des
fence. (Loud cheers.) W3reCommend this plan to your
impartial and searching inquiry; we do not presume
to make a claim on your acknowledgment, but neither
do we desire to draw on your generous confidence nor
to appeal to your compassi)n. We ask for nothing but
impartial search and inquiry; we know that it will re-
ceive that justice at your heeds, and we confidently antici-
pate in its behalf the apprond etaike of Parliament and of
the people of this empire. (The right hon. gentleman re-
sumed his seat amid loud ant general cheering.)
The CHAIRMAN having put the resolution with respect
to the reduction of the duties on chicory and other products,
Mr. DISRAELI said—lt is not nay intention to offer op-
position to the resolution which the right hon. gentleman
has proposed; indeed, I must take the liberty of congratu-
lating himself and the house on the able manner in whiel
he has addressed it under the painful circumstances with
which I can assure him all present sympathise. (Cheery.)
But the right hon. gentleman has placed before us a very
large scheme, treating of subjects of the greatest importance
and descending even to the tainutest detail, and having with
proper confidence invited on the part of the house an impar-
tial and searching examination of these topics, I would
venture to say that, as we do not all of us possess abilities
equal to those with which he is gifted, it appears to me
scarcely possible that an impartial and searching investiga-
tion can take place in the very limited time that the right
hon. gentleman has intimated. The claims of the trade of
the country, no doubt, are groat and urgent, when any al-
terations of the tariff are contemplated—no man hesitates to
acknowledge their importance ; but these claims have a
limit, and the urgency and importance of commercial inte-
r. s s came It justify this house in entering into rash and pre-
cipitatefivetirayncira
pia eogr
statementit
as tnatt i
subject;en.
w i( eewai ree,maheret
teat r) We are dealing with a
s,
differing in very essential
also dealing in the present
particulars from those by which even the most compreheu-
sive financial schemes have of late years been charaeterised.
right hon, gentleman has fairly
cMo rue s
ihdaevr ea t toon
sdual t
—n not onlyti
ie with financial and commercial
admitted, and as no member of this house should for a mo-
ment forget—we have to deal likewise with
political con-
We are asked to enter into rela-
tionsforeign "wet, which, having once been
lideratwiointsh. (
ali ear, hoar.)
adopted, are not susceptible of those changes which in
thoroughly domestic engagemente however important, the
omnipotence of Parliament would always be able to effect.
Anient so f therefore, feel
the
houset hhawtle
natal
the right hon. gentleman that we should enter upon the
butetat e expressing a t the
propositiong en general
of
l a
consideration of this financial sehorae next Thursday is one
I think of an unreasonable nature,
senndti
(Hear, hear.) I have
no wish to interfere 'with the government in the conduct
of public business, or with the arrangements which have
been made for bringing forward the bill popularly
called the Reform Bill, .but I should suggest that
this day fortnight would he the period at which,
under the circurnstaneee of the case, and according
to the proper and usual form, the discussion on this subject
might conveniently be taken. (Cries et 4, Oh! " and
i
cheers.) In several similar cases n which the interests in-
volved were mere limited than under the present financial
statement, the house, I remember,• requested a fortnight's
interval, and s mistimes even pressed for three weeks, and
no instance hag occurred where interests of any importance
wore concerned in which a less period than a week has been
granted. And now we ate called on to consider at such
brief notice questions of financial, of commercial, and of
political intereat, Ali of the 'aighest sad most comprehensive
character; end not to consider them merely, but to come to
a decision, because this scheme imust be taken as a whole,
and it is evident that the very first vote whiek is given
upon any portion of it will really
.decide the fate of the en-
tire proposal. And not lamely is the convenience of this
house to be consulted, bat our constituents are deeply
affected by this proposition; they have a right to consider
its details and to communicate with their representatives,
and many of them are at such a distance as to render it
scarcely possible that a communication could be returned
in time. On all these grounds I would suggest to the Go-
vernment that the postponement of the further considera-
tion of this question to this day fortnight is a step that
would be most convenient to the house, and most condu-
cive to the interests of the public. (Cheers.)
Mr. ELLICE expressed a hope that whatever course
might be adopted by the house they would not follow that
recommended by the right hon. gentleman who had just sat
down. (Cheers.) Interests of various descriptions were con-
cerned in the decision of the house, and on behalf of one
which would be most prejudicially affected by the proposed
changes, he was very anxious that the scheme should be
subjected to a speedy decision. He did not intend to go
into the details of tho measure. The right hon. gentleman
had stated it to the house with great ability—(hear, hear)—
and it was founded on a principle which recommended
itself very much to their serious attention. Although the
right hon. gentleman had pointed him out as one of those
who were most likely to object to the measure, ho wished
to express his acquiescence in its general principle, though
he objected very strongly to its proposed application to the
constituency which he represented ; and in their name he
took that opportunity of protesting against the harsh,
peremptory, and inconsiderate manner in which it was
proposed to deal with their interests. The silk trade was
that which was most especially affected by this scheme, and
of the £300,000 at present levied •
on silk manufactures
least one half was paid by the particular species
of silk manufactured by his constituency. A petition
had undoubtedly been presented from the silk manufacturers
of Manchester, in which they advocated the removal of the
restrictions as calculated to benefit the general silk trade;
but they were very little affected by the contemplated re-
peal of the duties. Tho branch of manufacture in which
this country was peculiarly interested was that of ribands,
which was prieciTelly and almost entirely carried on in the
city Gsosentry. In 1846, when the first general scheme
of retbrm was introduced, a certain consideration had been
paid to this particular trade, and a certain amount of pro-
tection had been retained in their favour. That protection
amounted to 16or 17 per cent. The trade, which was in a

state of progressive improvement, was now Ella), to be in-
jured by the proposed competition. He was innocent enough
in the first instance, to tell his constituentstha t he did not
believe s commercial treaty would be negotiated by the Go-
vernment. In this time of day he had thought it little likely
that the principle of a commercial treaty would have been
resorted to. He now asked where the equivalent was to be
found in the treaty for the free admission of ribands into
this country. (Hear, hear.) If an equivalent had been
granted, if the market of France had been'opened to Eng-
lish ribands, at the same time that the English market was
opened to French ribands, he should have thought the immix
lecturers and artisans in this country would have been able
to compete with those of France on terms of equality, and
that they would have consented to this measure; but when
he found that the duty on French ribands (.1' from 1.5 to 16
per cent. was to be taken off, and that they were to he ad-
mitted freely into this country, while our rfoands were to be
practically excluded from the French market, it would re-
quire greater ingenuity than even that of his right hon.
friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to persuade the
English workman that the price of his labour was not
diminished and his condition deteriorated, or that he had
been treated on principles of equality and justice. (Hear.)
The consequence of this treaty had been that the trade of
Coventry was now nearly in a state of panic, and that being
so he should be sorry to see the discussion on the measure
delayed longer than was absolutely necessary to enable the
house to master its details; because, while the suspense
lasted, the condition of the poor people there would be truly
unenviable. (Hear, hear.) Ile trusted therefore, that the
Chancellor of the Exchequer would adhere to his determi-
nation to proceed with the discussion on Thursday.
Mr. NE WD E GATE said many years had elapsed since a
commercial treaty with France was negotiated. Mr. Pitt, in
1787,'unide a proposition of that kind in the same friendly
spirit to France which pervaded that of the present Go-
vernment; but the substance of that treaty was before the
English public six or eight weeks before the Minister pro-
posed its adoption to the representatives of the people.
(Hear.) Now however, the Chancellor of the Exchequer ex-
pected that House, in less than a week, to master all the
details of an elaborate financial statement, which had been
propounded with an ability to which he (Mr. Newdegate)
rendered his humble tribute, but which involved more com-
plicated calculations then any exposition of the kind he
had ever before heard. The key of the whole scheme of the
right hon. gentleman was the treaty with France. He (Mr.
Newdegate) warned the committee that if they sanctioned
the provisions of that treaty they could never again retreat
from its obligations without the concurrence of France.
(Hear, hear.) He besought the committee not to commit
itself to an engagement which involved such vast conse-
quences without asking for at least a fortnight or three
weeks to deliberate on a step which they could never retrace
without endangering the good understanding which sub-
sisted between two great nations. The secrecy with respect
to this treaty had been so jealously maintained that the
whole of the people engaged in the silk trade of this coun-
try, amounting to nearly 150,000, according to the census
of 1851, were up to that hour in total ignorance of its pro-
visions. (Hear, hear.) He snbmitted that the committee
would do well to follow the example set in 1787 by the
House of Commons, who allowed six weeks or two months
to elapse before they ratified a similar treaty with France.
Mr. BENTINCK said he, in common with the rest of the
committee, had listened with the deepest attention to the
brilliant speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He would
go further, and say he had never heard in that House any
attempt equalling that which the right hen. gentleman had
made to gloss over a scheme, the tendency of which was de-
structive to some of the most important interests of tho
country. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. gentleman, with
considerable emphasis, was pleased to say—triumphing in
his new Free.trade aspirations—that Protection for some
time past had been lurking in holes and corners. As one of
those who had never deviated from the opinions, whether
they were right or wrong, which he had held on the subject
of Free-trade, he (Mr. Bentinck) ventured to say that when
he saw the kind of honesty and consistency which was now
rampant in high places, Protection might well takeitself
into those holes and corners, where, at least, it might find
better company. (A laugh.) He had heard with satisfaction
the right hon. gentleman the member for Coventry urge the
necessity of giving mature consideration to all the details
of the financial scheme propounded by the Chancellor of
the Exchequer ; but it was not in the power of man to be
able to form a sound opinion as to the probable effect of so
comprehensive a measure within the limited time which
was to be allowed to elapse before its discussion by the
house. He thought they ought to have more time to con-
sider the question. He hoped the right hon. gentleman
would adhere stoutly to the line ho had laid down, and he
was quite sure he would receive the support of every man
who wished to consider the subject dispassionately, and not
make it a mere party question for the sake of ensuring a
party triumph.
Mr. BAXTER hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer
would not yield to the suggestion of delay, but take the dis-
cussion at the earliest possible moment. Every member of
this house would have made up his mind by Friday next.
The hon. gentleman who had just sat down had made up
his mind already. He begged the right hon. gentleman on
no account to fix a distaht day for the discussion.
Sir S. NORTHCOTE asked the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer to explain more fully the intentions of the Govern-
ment as to the drawback en wines that had paid duty.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER would state
the intention of the Government more at length on another
occasion. But that intention was quite distinct, and
founded on a clear principle. They would adhere strictly
to the terms of what had been construed to be a compact,
and give a drawback to those who had complied with the
Treasury minute of 1843.
Mr. HORSFALL hoped the consideration of the Budget
would be postponed for at least a fortnight. Ho would not
venture to express any opinion for or against the views pro-
pounded. It was quite impossible the treaty could be in
the hands of hon. membets before Monday, and Thursday
next was too soon for the discussion.
Mr. PALK thought the members of the house ought to
have an opportunity of laying all the facts and alterations
involved in the Budget before their constituents. At the
same time, he hoped the Government would not be induced
by any delay in discussing the financial statement to defer
the introduction of the Reform Bill, as it had been advised
to do.

Mr. ALCOCK expressed his satisfaction with that part of
the Budget referring to the commercial intercourse between
England and France. It was a stigma on both countries
that their intercourse had not been much greater. But h•
regretted that no promise of a reduction in the malt o.,ity
had been made ; nor had justice been done to the cor:stuners
of tea and sugar. The working classes of 14w:ion spent
one-eighth of their wages in tea and sugar, v",3t, he did not
hear of any alteration in the duty on those
Mr„ GLYN, as a commercial man, ariicles.
4:At bound to repre-
sent the great inconvenience that w':,uld arise if there was
any postponement of the diaeux".ion upon the financial state-
ment. (Hear, hear.) Aw' dole week was to be given for
consideration, which wr:ald be ample ; and when the dis-
cussion commenced trusted it would be continued de the
in diets.

L__Loni.c.'HAMILTON, as the representative of a consti-
t46ll(7, largely interested in the linen trade, thought, in
19..irness, further time should be given, that he might ascer-
tain the feelings of those whom ho represented.
Lord PALMERSTON—It is quite impossibl9 for the
Government to ()encode to the proposal of the right hon.
gentleman to postpone the discussion for a fortnight—(hear,
hear)—because, for the reasons which have been clearly
stated, it would be exceedingly inconvenient and injurious
to various' trades, bat if Thursday be too early, we have no
abjection to fix the discussion for Friday. (" Hear, hear,"
and laughter.) There will be then an entire week for con-
sideration, but upon the question of any further postpone-
ment we must take the sense of the house. (Hear, hear.)
I hope if we take it on Friday that the house, feeling that
these are matters of most pressing interest, will consent to
continue the discussion from day to day. (Hear, hear.)
Sir J. PAKINGTON said, the hon. member for Kendal
(Mr. Glyn) had truly stated that it was important to trade
interests not to have unnecessary delay, but, on the other
hand, it must be remembered when the House of Commons
was called upon to decide upon proposals of such magnitude
in such a startling manner, that there were other and very
large interests throughout the country involved, and it was
important that sufficient time should be given for the consi-
deration of details so complicated. (Hear, hear.) He could
not suppose that the right hon. gentleman after proposing
so vast a scheme would be so unfair as to press it with un-
due haste. (Hear, hear.) The delay arising from the
right hon. gentleman's illness was unfortunate, but could
not be avoided, but there was a delay which the Govern-
ment could have avoided,—viz., in the production of the
treaty until that very night. (Hear, hear.) It had been
suggested that when once commenced the discussion should
continue de die in diem. That was a matter for the consi-
deration of the Government, but they could not expect that
the first discussion would pass off without an adjournment,
and he would suggest whether it was de-irable to begin a
debate on a Friday, that could not be continued until the
following week. With respect to the Reform Bill, of
course, the Government could please themselves. (Hear,
hear.)
Mr. SLANE Y hoped there would be no farther delay
upon these important matters. He regretted the right hon.
gentleman had not felt able to reduce the tea and sugar
duties, even if he had raised the Income-tax to ls., as he
was sure the rich would willingly have borne that increase
to contribute to the comfort and necessities of their poorer
fellow-subjects.
_ _

Mr. BALL thought the right hon gentleman was con-
sistent is not showing any particular favour to the agricul-
tural interests. In his first budget he had made an increase
in the malt duties, and he (Mr. Ball) had failed by a small
minority to procure a reversal of that policy. The right
hon. gentleman, he was sorry to say, although he had dealt
in a cosmopolitan spirit with otber interests, and had looked
about on all aides to see to what classes he might extend
relief, yet had added to the burden of the maltster by short-
ening the period which had been so long allowed him for
the payment of his duty. That, he thought, was hardly a
tair course to pursue. Ho should not, however, enter fur•
ther into the question upon that occasion, but should beg
the right hon. gentleman and the Government to put off for
a more lengthened period than they proposed the further
consideration of a statement so important as that which he
had just made, and embracing subjects so complex in their
nature. _ _

Mr. HORS ?lAN said hon. gentleman on both sides of
the House had a common interest in having the most con-
venient day fixed for the discussion of the proposals of the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, and he did not think the ques-
tion of time, thereforb, was one on which it would be cre-
ditable to the Committee to come to a division. He would,
under those circumstances, suggest that the further consi-
deration of the statement of the right hon. gentleman should
be postponed until Monday next, before which day hon.
gentlemen opposite might come to some agreement with the
Government as to the course which it was advisable to take.
He had, however, risen principally with the object of asking
the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, it being his in-
tention to extend to other countries the similar changes to
those which had been made in the case of Frahce, it was
intended to make those changes the subject of a treaty. [The
Chancellor of the Exchequer intimated that it was not.]
That being so, be should also wish to know whether the
right hon. gentleman had made allowance in his statement
for the loss to the revenue which the change in the tariff
in the case of those other countries would occasion.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied in
the affirmative.

Mr. CROSSLEY was desirous that the discussion of the
Budget—which he charade' iced as the best that had been
introduced since 1803—should be proceeded with as soon as
possible, in order that the introduction of the Reform Bill
might not be unduly postponed.
After a few words from Mr. KENDALL,
Mr. ItIDLEY bore testimony to the ability which had
been displayed in the framing of the financial scheme which
had that evening been submitted to the notice of the com-
mittee, and dwelt upon the adv-ntages which were likely to
result from the increased commercial intercourse which was
about to take place between this country and France. In
its leading features ho believed the budget would receive a
very cordial reception in the country, and he believed the
important interests affected will be much indebted to the
House of Commons if they suffered ne unnecessary delay
to intervene before pronouncing their decision on the great
scheme which had been laid before them.
Mr. R. W. CRAWFORD had taken the means of ascer-
taining what was the state of feeling in the city, and he
found that trade was in a state of paralysis, everbody wait-

lug to know what would be the decision of Parliament on
the bulget. Take the silk trade, for instance—there was
no period in the whole year when changes of the character
proposed were so likely to affect that trade as the month of
February, during the first and second week of which the
great transactions'in the silk trade were carried on. From
the communications which had been made to him, he could
state that the indecision affecting all transactions in the silk
trade placed all parties engaged in it in circumstances of
great disadvantage. The same might be said of the wine,
and indeed of every other trade. He therefore hoped that
no unreasonable delay would be allowed to take place.
Mr. E. C. EGERTON could confirm the statement made
by the hon. member for the city of London. He deprecated
any delay, in the settlement of this question. His consti-
tuents, the silk merchants of Macclesfield, were anxious to
know at once what was awaiting them. They were alive to
the benefits of free trade and not afraid of the result. They
only wished tustart on the same footing with their foreign
competitors. The great operations in the silk trade, as the
hon. member for the city of London had stated, were carried
on in February, and it was Kw* important that there should
be as little delay as possible in coming to a final decision it
regard to tie propositions which had been submitted to the
house.

Mr. S. EWART entirely agreed in the views of the hon.
member fdr the city of London. It was most important to
the commercial interest that this question should be settled
as soon as possible. It certainly should mot be delayed for
a fortnight ; a week, as proposed by the noble lord .at the
head of the Government, was quite sufficient. So tar as he
knew the feeling of his constituents he was quite sure that
the great and comprehensive 'measure of the right hon. the
Chancellor of the Exchequer—one of the greatest ever in-
troduced into that House—would meet with the most
cordial approval. .
Mr. NEWDEGATE could not agree in what had been
said as to the favourable feeling with which the budget
would be viewed by those engaged in the silk trade. It
was proposed to admit silk free immediately, while what-
ever was given in compensation by France was to be de-
layed for a long period, and then the terms of reciprocity
were to be 30 per cent. in France as against no duty here.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY put it to the Government
whether they would not adopt the suggestion of the right
hon. member for Stroud (Mr.llorsman) and tale Monday
week for the discussion of this subject.
Lord PALM ERSTON.—As I understood, the right hon.
member for Stroud proposed Monday next. (A laugh.)
Mr. G. W. BENTINCK wished to know front her
Majesty's Government whether, in the event of Parlia-
ment not thinking it right to confirm this treaty, the friendly
relations between the two Governments would be in any
way interfered with.

:fir. HORSMAN explained that he had suggested the
committee nominally for Monday, that an understanding
might then be come to as to when the discussion should be
taken, His object was to avoid a narrow division one way
or the other.

Lord J. RUSSELL—I cannot think the arrangement
suggested by the right hon. member would be convenient.
It would be much more advantageous that the country
should know at once when the discussion will really take
place. (Hoar, hear.) Sir, the hon. member for West
Norfolk is quite mistaken in supposing that the treaty is
imposed on this country by France. Indeed, it has been
long a in9ttei of discussion whether any ruler of France
would be bold enough to propose to diminish the protection
which many interests in that country are combined and
organised to uphold. However, the present Emperor, see-
ing the great advantage of free trade, or, at all events, of a
change in the French prohibitive and protective system,
authorised his Ministers to negotiate a treaty,on the subject.
The fact is, that some months ago, when Mr. Cobden was
going to Paris, he had a conversation with me, in which he
informed me that he had several friends in France—one of
them a person well known throughout Europe, M. Michel
Chevalier; that he was anxious to converse with them in
order to see whether there was any chance of a eommercial
treaty being entered into by France. I told him, on the
part of the Government, that if he found there was such a
disposition I was sure her Majesty's Government would be
quite ready to empower their representative to negotiate
Bitch a treaty. The treaty itself my right hon. friend has
explained in a manner which must have made its object
clear to every one who heard him. (Hear.) But when
the hon. gentleman asks whether the rejection of this treaty
is to be followed by a possible disturbance of the friendly
relations between this country and France, I must tell him
our argument is, that the tendency of the treaty is to pro-
mote friendly relations between the two Governments.
'(Cheers.) We believe it would work gradually, but surely,
in improving those relations, and that the benefits both
countriee would derive from an exchange of each other's
productions and manufactures would form such bonds of
amity that it would bo found more difficult to create ill-
feeling between them thanhad been the case in past times.
But, as to whether the rejection of the treaty would pro-
duce any disturbance of our friendly relations, why the hon.
gentleman and every other member of this houee are quite
as capable of forming an opinion as we are. That any
threat or intimidation of that kind has been made is untrue.
But, as to what effect any angry speeches in this House
against France, followed by the rejection of the treaty,
might have, the hon. member must judge for himself. The
right hon. member for Buckinghamshire said it would be
highly convenient if we postponed this subjeet for a fort-
night, and if I, in the meantime, would introduce the Re..
form Bill. Well, that is not the course lam gamq to
pursue. (A laugh.) However anxious I may be to Iring
in that Bill, it will be my duty not to submit it to the con-
sideration of the House until we have gone flrough at
least all the principal measures indicated b!,-- the budget.
(Hear, hear.) The only point at issue now •:a the difference
between the Friday and Monday. Th;s question has so
many branches, so many members are interested in the
various articles affected by the propos. al, that it is quite im-
possible we can get through the d; scussion in one or even
two nights. I think, therefore, the Government could not
properly delay the matter later than Friday next.
Mr. T. BARING -It is v ery unfortunate that the Govern-
ment should appear to r,ress their proposal forward with un-
necessary haste. Sue`, .a course must be unfavourable to its
success. It will not tacilitate its adoption, but must in reality
retard its progre,s, because a feeling will 'be excited in the
House, and per.iiaps in the country, that Ministers are anxious
to force the'lr measures upon Parliament. (Hear, hear.) Ido
not belie'. e there has been a case in which proposals of such
importance. made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer have
"cur. submitted for our approval within a week after their
•
P.. st explanation. Recollect that the secret of the right lion.
gentleman's budget—and I praise him for it—has been very
well kept. (A laugh.) Recollect, also, that the i.ecret of this
treaty—and I cannot equally praise bins for that—has been
kept till this very day, and yet it is only next week that its
provisions can be canvassed by the country. (Hear, hear.)
The budget is very large and affects a great variety of inte-
rests. I should be ashamed to hazard any opinion either in
favour of or against it without giving it the consideration
which its importance demands. Comprehensive as it no doubt
is, I must be allowed to say that a more complicated proposal
was hardly ever made in this House. It has been introduced
with that rare ability of which the right hon. gentleman has
'given so many proofs. We all admire the talent which he has
displayed ; we all cengratul .te ourselves on his re-appearance
among us; and we must all have wished, while listening to
him that he may long remain an ornament to this assembly.
(Cheers.) Permit me to say it is not just to this House to
force the measure upon our immediate consideration. It may
be politically, it may be commercially right—it may be finan-
cially expedient. On the other hand, while, perhaps, finan-
cially inexpedient, and commercially dangerous, Riney yet be
I,olitically right. We have to view it in various aspects. Do
not compel us to pronounce a hasty decision. If it be what
we hope, what the Government say it is, and just what the
country wants, it will lose none of its recommendations by
the delay of a week. (Cheers.) From what the noble lord has
told us, there is evidently no hurry in bringing in the Rettirm
Bill. Why not give us sufficient time to consider the budget
—to say whether we can or cannot give it a conscientious sep-
port. (Hear, hear.) The Government, commanding a ma-
jority, may say they will give the House and the country no
opportunity of examining their proposals, but in pursuing
such a course I am convinced they will gain neither in time
nor in credit. (Cheers.)
Mr. BASS was surprised to hear so eminent an authority
in commercial matters urging the necessity for delay. Many
branches of trade had been suspended for weeks, owing to the
uncertainty that had prevailed as to the intentions of the Go-
vernment. - - - _ - -

•
Sir J. PAKINGTON - Since we understand from the noble
lord that the discussion of the financial scheme is, under any
circumstances, to precede the introduction of the Reform Bill,
we are relieved from any practical difficulty as to Monday
week; and, as it is very unpleasant to commence a discussion
of this sort with a dispute as to the time at which it should
commence. I would suggest to the noble lord at the head of
the (;overnment, as an arrangement likely to be acceded to
by all parties, that he should name that day for the conside-
ration of the budget. ("No, no.")
Lord PALMERSTON—We are very unwilling to make any
change in the day named for the further consideration of this
subject, but, as there is an advantage in making au arrange-
ment which is unanimously approved, we are willing to make
the ncession suguested byHi the right hon. baronet, on the
underco standing, of course, at we shall then go on with the
debate day by day. (Hear, hear.)
The resolution was then agreed to, and the House resumed,

SUPPLY,

The House having resolved itself into a committee of Sup-

On the motion of Mr. HERBERT a vote of £4o',f4►9, to
cover the excess of military expenditure beyond the estimate
for the year 1858-59 was agreed to.
PROBATE AND ADMINISTRATION (INDIA) BILL.
This Bill, as amended, was considered.
ATTORNEYS AND SOLICITORS BILL.
This Bill was read a second time.
PACKET SERVICE SECURITIES.
Mr. LAING obtained leave to bring in a Bill to transfer to
the Postmaster-General securities entered into with the
Commissioners of the Admiralty in relation to the packet
service.
The Bill was introduced and read a first time.
The House adjourned at half-past 11 o'clock.

Mr. Long was prevented by indisposition from voting
against Mr. T. Duneombe's motion on Thursday last.

FROM THE4GAZETTE OF _LAST NIGHT

WAR-OFFICE, Ftn. 10.
The Queen has been graciously pleased to give orders
for the appointment of Rowland Hill, Esq., Secre-
tary to the Post Office, to be an Ordinary Mem-
ber of the Civil Division, of the Second Class, or Knights
Commanders, of the Most Honourable Order of the Bath.

FOREIGN-OFFICE, JAN. 24.
The Queen has been graciously pleased to appoint
Edmund Yates Peel, Esq., now British Vice-Consul at
Oran, to be her Majesty Consul at Mahon.

FEB. 9.
The Queen has been pleased to approve of Mr. Hermann
Quosbarth as Vice-Consul at Dundee for his Royal High-
ness the Grand Duke of Mecklenburgh-Schwerin.

VAR-OFFICE, PALL-MALL, FEB. 10.
Military Train—Brevet-Colonel John Clark Kennedy,
C. 8., Lieutenant- Colonel upon half-pay of the 18th Foot,
to be Colonel Commandant, vice Brevet-Colonel M'Murdo,
C. 8., appointed Inspector of Volunteers.