The Sun.
London, England, 1856-04-08 00:00:00

vernment would Teem It, tEeir duty to take into consi-
,
deration the arrangements which would have to be made.
Ile was not aware of any objection to assimilating the
Scotch to the English law, and he was quite ready to
consider what means would be necessary to provide that,
accommodation which would enable them to relieve
householders in Scotland from the existing grievance.
After a few words from Mr. THORNELY, amidst loud
cries of " Divide,"
Mr. MACKIE was understood to inquire whether the
Government would bave any objection to promise that
they would assimilate the Scotch to the English law ?
Lord PALI.IIERSTON raid he could only state, as at
present advised, he saw no objection to the change. Un-
less there were some objection of which he was not aware,
he was perfectly ready tr propose the assimilation of this
law of the two countries in this respect.
Mr. COWAN raid the grievance was universally ad-
mitted ; and he thought they would stultify themselves
if
Order," aey agreend " Divide.d to any
") delay. (Cries of °' Spoked
"
The house then divided, when there appeared--
For the resolution ........................ 139
Against it . ................... 116
Maj0rity.............................. -23
The announcement was received with cheers from the
Oi position.

Viscount PALMERSTON understood that it 'would not
be at variance with a precedent which had been pointed
out to him if he were now to move that the house do
mediately resolve itself into a committee of supply.
Mr. DISRAELI did not wish to raise any difficulty with
regard to the noble lord's motion ; but he was totally at a
loss to understand or explain the reiterated assertions of
those experienced and right hon. gentlemen who had said
that if the house arrived at the politic and just conclusion
they had done, they would be precluded from procee lin
with the committee of supply. (Hear, hear.) He begged
to congratilate the house both on having accomplished
that act of justice, and on being also about to go into com-
mittee of supply. (Hear.) But he must express his regret
that those whose office it was to guide and direct the busi.
ness of the house should have been so profoundly ignorant
on this matter as they had shown themselves to be, unless
indeed they had condescended to misrepresent the state of
the case, which it was quite impossible to conceive.
(Laughter.) He hoped that this night would be memor-
able, not only because the Government had been beaten in
consequence of their baying refused to do an act of justice,
bat because they had been enabled to arrive at certain and
accurate results with respect to the mode of conducting
the public business.

Th• CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER explained
that during the division the precedent referred to by
th• noble lord had been discovered by the diligence of one
of the clerks at the table. He trusted that the hove would
not belieTe that her Majesty's Government were capable of
resorting to a step so dishonourable as knowingly to mis-
represent the state of the case.
In answer to Mr. C. BRUCE,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
precedent referred to bad occurred in April, 1850.
The SPEAKER explained that there was, in fact, no-
thing in the amendment which bad been adopted to nega-
tive the motion for going into a committee of supply.
The right hon. geatleman then left the chair, and the
following votes were agreed to :-
- 6051., to defray the office expenses of the Commissioners
of Education, Ireland.

3,8791., for the University of London,
7,5101., for the Universities, Scotland.
2,4111., for the Queen's Universities, Ireland.
Mr. M`MAIION complained that only 201. was voted
for the examiners iu the Celtic languages, which ho pre-
sumed included the ancient lanr,nage of e Ireland. That
was almost the smallest sum voted to examiners—those in
Gree'_:, Latin, and mathematics, being allowed as much as
10X.

Mr. W. WILLIAMS said the allowance to the profes-
sors of Greek and of mathematics at Edinburgh was only
301. Considering that there were in the Queen's univer-
sities no fewer than 22 professors, and that not less than
15 gold u-edals and 3251. in premiums and exhibitions were
annually given away in order to induce 41 persons to be
examined, he did not think the hen. and learned gentle-
man ought to be dissatisfied. (Hear.
Mr. HORSSIAN said the Government did not arrange
the amount of salary • o be given to each of the examiners.
So much was voted for the university ; and the authorities
of that university vnado the distribution. It was said the
examiners were over-paid, in proportion to the number of
students ; but taking an average of the examiners, they
were paid much less than those of the University of London;
the average of the latter being 1001., and of those of the
University of Dublin, 701. The smallness of the number
of students was accounted for partly by the new colleges,
and partly by a more severe course of examination having
been adopted last year.
Mr. M'AIAHON said he must protest against this item.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS said there was no compel ism. be-
tween London University and those Irish universities.

The former received students from colleges all over the.
country, add the number must be immense. He regretted
that the Irish colleges had not been more successful than
they had been.
The vote was then agreed to, us were the following :-
4,800/., expenses of the Queen's Colleges in Ireland.
5301., expenses of the Royal Irish Academy.
3001., expenses of Royal Hibernian Academy.
2,9 i 5/ , for the expense of theological professors at Bel-
fast. Upon this vote,
Mr. HE YWORTH moved, as an amendment, that 1,500'.

should be disallowed, and that compensation should b©
made on reasonable terms. He contended that the grant

had originally been made on political ground.. It was
certainly not on religious grounds ; for it was given not
only to Presbyterians but to Unitarians, who taught anta-
gonistic doctrines to each other. If this grant WAR with-
drawn the voluntary principle would be more fully called
into exercise. Nothing could be more inimical to the in-
terests of true religion than to teach its professors to rely
on Government aid for support. The necessary result of
this system was to induce the people to give as little as
possible.
Mr. KIRK sail the observations of the hon. member,
however applicable to the Regiutn Donum, lied no sort of
reference to the vote before the house. That vote was for
the theclogical professors of Belfast, who were all Presby-
terians. A similar grant was made fur the Sc tch univer-
sities. He denied that the money was given by English-
men ; Ireland paid the same taxes now as England, and ho
claimed this vote as a right. There was no begging in the
case—they were incapable of begging. (Laughter.) Tue
professors of Belfast were most able and deserving men,
and had done much for the promotion of education.
Mr. HADFIELD sail that if Ireland paid this tax, the
Roman Catholics of Ireland, three fourths of the popula•
tion, were unjustly taxed for the support of these Pro-
testant professors. All the while these Irish Protestants
were complaining of being taxed for the support of May-
nooth, and petitioning fur the abolition of the grant. He
denied that six professors were needed at Belfast ; three
would be ample ; two could perform the duties very well.
At one time a single profea or, a friend of his, had per-
formed all the duties. Tine six professors were occupied
little more than five months in the ,year, and only from five
to fifteen hours in the week. Besides the Government sub-
sidy, they received fees from the pupils ; and one of them,
Dr. Cooke, received in addition 320/ a-year for distributiug
this charity, besides about 4001. a-year from the pew rents
of his chapel. Tilt Presbyterians of Belfast were the richest
body of dissenters that he knew of. Last year they raised.
30,0001. for manses for tl,eir ministers, 10,0001. for the mis-
sionary society, besides largo sums for other societies. Let
them be just before they were generous; let them take
their hands out of the public exchequer. Their brother
Dissenters were ashamed of them for accepting these pitiful
grants. Not a single body of Dissenters in this country
condescended to du so. It was denied that Unitarians
received any portion of this grant ; but he found from the
estimate itself that they did so. Thus the House of Com-
mons was asked to vote money fee those who maintained
the divinity of Christ and fur those who held such a belief
to be idolatry. He believed this grant had a most perni-
cious people of Ireland, because it prevented
the
disseminationuoof divine truth and moral culture to a
great extent. He was sure, if they withdrew this grant,
and other similar grants, which amounted to 40,0001., it
would be made up by voluntary contributions. Was the
house prepared to grant money by this vote for the support
of Calvinistic doctrines, and in the next to grant money
for the support of -Unitarian doctrines ? The Roman Ca-
tholics were watching this inconsistency. The only effect
of this would be to create a disregard and disrelish for re-
ligion in general Was the hon. and learned member for
Belfast prepared to vote money for the propagation of infi-
del doctrines? Could anything be more calculated to de-
stroy religion and to encourage scepticism than this mode
of supporting religion ? He intended, after the house
voted on the present motion, to take the sense of the com-
mittee on the next vote also.
Mr. CAIRNS said that one portion of the hon. gentle.
man's speech answered the other, because he said in the first
part that these grants were calculated to cramp voluntary
efforts, and the next moment he said that the Presbyterians
raised large sums of money for the support of their own
doctrines. The hon. gentleman complained that the profes-
sors only gave five or six hours each week to the business
of teaching. He did not know whether the hon gentleman
was much acquainted with colleges, but if he was he must
know that it was rota question of giving more time on the
part of the professors, but whether the students could give
more energy and attention than an hour each day to these
studies, considering the other classes they had to attend to.
He denied that the professors were paid too much for the
duties they had to perform. Every one of the professors in-
cluded in this vote was an orthodox Presbyterian. But the
hon. gentleman said that there were other grants which
went to the support of infidel doctrines. If that was tha
ground of opposition, the hon. gentleman should move the
rejection of the vote altogether, and not its diminution.
Mr. HEY WORTH said that he would withdraw his irat
motion, and move instead that the vote be reduced by
6001., leaving 900/, as a pension or compensation to the
professors.
Mr. R. J. FOX said the real question was whether it was
true policy to grant public money to establish a branch o
Scotch Presbyterianism in Ireland. He could understand
a government supporting a religion because it was
true. He could also understand a government supporting
a religion because it was the religion of the majority, but
the present grant could not be uphold on either of these
grounds, because Presbyterianism was not the national re-
ligion, nor was it the religion of the mAjority of the people
of Ireland. It was, like all other grants of the same kind,
an attempt to support the doctrines of a few by the money
of the many—the religion of a sect by the money of the
nation. (Hear.) It did not stand on the same 'ground as
the vote to the Scotch professors, because in Scotland the
religion of the majority of the people was Presbyterian-
ism. He should recommend the opponents of the Maynooth
grant to consider well the grounds on which they sup-
ported the present one. This was the Maynooth grant of
the Presbyterians. (Hear.)
Mr. SPOONER said he did not want to be instructedi
in his duty by the hon. member for Oldham.
support this vote because it was for the support
eul is
eeof i should
w
truth,oue Inat
but he should oppose the Maynooth grant
majority,
Oldhams o
oughttha
to support superstitious fables. (Laughter.) .
Sir J. FERGUSSON said that the present vote was a
grant to the College of Belfast. Now, in the north of
on
Ireland the Presbyterians wereemi,bnear
fur
his own showing, the hon. in
vote for it.
long as the Government supported the grant to Maynooth.
Mr. MOWBRAY said he should support this grant as
(Laughter.) If, however, the hon. member for Sheffield
showed that any portion of it. went to the support of a
Unitarian minister, he should, oin with him in opposition
to that part of the vote.
The house then divided—
For the amendment3l
85-54
Against it ..
Mr. CROSSLEY moved to reduce the vote by the sum.
of 3201.,
for six and a half years' mistakes in Mr. Young's
retired allowaume.
Mr, -WILSON believed that the hon. gentleman was no
acquainted with the circumstances of this vote. In 1850,
, when the Queen's Colleges were established, the professors
at the Belfast24cademical Institution were discontinued.