The Sun.
London, England, 1860-07-10 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, JULY 10, 1860.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT

HOUSE OF LORDS—(YESTERDAY•)
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack
at five o'clock.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.

Lord -De Freyne's Estate, Hungerford Market and
Charing Cross Bridge, Waterford and Limerick Railway
(No. 2), North British Railway (Stations, &c.), and Epsom
and Leatherhead Railway Bills were read a third time and
passed.

heard fully and fairly discussed among naval officers. The
conclusion at which he had arrived was that, to transfer the
power of inflicting corporal punishment from the captain to
a court-martial would be to diminish the authority of the
captain and to endanger the discipline of the service. The
nearest approach which could safely be made to such a sys-
tem was to provide—as was done in the present bill—that,
except in the case of open mutiny, no man should be sub-
jected to corporal punishment by the commanding officer
until the case had been inquired into and reported upon by
one or more officers appointed by the commander. By that
means the responsibility would be to a certain extent di-
vided between the captain and one or more of his subordi-
nates. He proposed that arrangement rather for the protec-
tion of the captain than of the men, as it would relieve him
of that personal odium which he was at present apt to incur
if he inflicted corporal punishment. Their lordships were,

no doubt, aware that seamen were now grouped in two
classes ; and the first-class men were not liable to corporal
punishment at all till they had been reduced to the second
class. Every precaution, therefore, had been taken to place
corporal punishment on a safe footing. He was certainly
not prepared to give up this mode of punishment, as cer-
tain persons who called themselves the "friends of the
sailor" demanded. He believed that its opposition would
be a positive misfortune to the men and would lead to great
inconvenience at sea, as confinement was the only substi-
tute. The noble duke then moved the second reading of
the bill.

The Earl of HARDWICKE believed that the discipline
of the navy was equally, if not more, dependent on the cha-
racter and conduct of the officers in command than upon the
code of laws under which they acted. In forming an opinion
on this question, the public had not made sufficient allow-
ance for the peculiarities of the naval service, and had been

too prone to consider the Articles of War oR the same

ground as the general law of the land. The effect of popu•
lar opinion acting on the successive Boards of Adrai.

reit), had been to remder is extremely difficult for officers to
carry out the naval code of laws and to maintain the disci-
pline of the service; and that influence coLld only be met
by the establishment of a detailed system of discipline, and
by the personal example of commanding officers in sharing
the same privations and restrictions as their men. Ho owned

that the language of the old Act of Parliament was too gene-
ral and comprehensive, and that it was desirable that the
kind of punishment attached to each particular offence
should be clearly defined. He had, therefore, no objection
to the measure of the noble duke as a whole, although there
were points in which it might be improved. He highly ap-
proved the manner in which the noble dukehad limited the
distinction which prevailed between offences committed on
shore and on board of ships. The exemptions from martial
law which a seaman at present enjoyed when he quitted his
ship certainly tended to unsettle him on his return on board,
and not unfrequently petty officers who attempted to enforce
very strict discipline were assaulted by the men on shore.

The Act gave power to the Lords of the Admiralty to sus-
pend, annul, or modify any sentence passed on any person
subject to the Act, except the sentence of death, which
could only be remitted by her Majesty. He objected to any
proposal to constitute the Lords of the Admiralty an appel-

lant court. The naval officers who composed a court-martial
wore generally quite as good jr dges as the Lords of the Ad-
miralty, if not better. An appeal from court-martial was
always open to the Crown, and, although he wished to see
an appellate jurisdiction established, it ought to be en-
trusted, he thought, to men learned in the law, and not to
the Admiralty. Great objections were properly entertained
to the 15th section of the 49th clause, which set up within
the walls of the ship a court for the judgment of offences.
The clause said, " Except in case of open mutiny no
man shall be sentenced by the commanding officer to
corporal punishment until. his offence has been inquired
into by one or more officers appointed by such com-
manding officer, and the guilt or innocence of the prisoner
reported to such commanding officer." He objected to
this clause, thinking it desirable to retain in the hands of

the captain the sole power, conduct, and management of
the ship from first to last, together with the full responsi-
bility of such command. The captain might himself see an
offence committed, and yet under this clause he would be
unable to punish the offender until his guilt had been in-
quired into by these officers. Such a regulation would di-
minish and injure the authority of the captain, and have a
prejudicial influence upon the discipline of the ship. At
present an interval of 48 hours elapsed between the sentence
of corporal punishment and its infliction, so thatample time
existed for inquiry and reconsideration. He trusted that
the house would not agree to this inquiry by junior officers,
there were several clauses in the bill which required the
most careful consideration, either before a select eommittee
or inkommittee of the whole house.

Lord COLCHESTER thought it necessary for the good
of the service that the captain should have the supreme
command, not only over the ship, but over all in it. The
bill must be carefully considered in committee.
Lord MELVILLE objected to that part of the bill by
which an officer might be dismissed the service for what
was called an " error of judgment." He thought this a
very severe penalty.
The Duke of SOMERSET would consider the various
suggestions that had been made, with a view to their adop-
tion in committee if they were deemed advisable. If the
bill was sent to a select committee upstairs, and noble lords
attended to it for a day or two, he had no doubt that it might
be considerably improved. '(Heer, hear.)
The bill was then read a second time.
The Criminal Lunatics Asylum Bill was reported, with
amendments.

TRAMWAYS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Lord BELHAVEN, in moving that the house go into
comrcittee on this bill, explained that its object was to em-
power trustees in certain cases to lay down tramways on
turnpike roads.

Lord POLWARTH thought that before such powers
were given to trustees the people of Scotland generally
should be informed upon the subject. The bill, in reality,
gave power to trustees to lay down railways on pub-
lic roads.

Lord REDESDALE thought tho bill should bo post-
poned until next session, that it might be circulated through-
out Scotland.

After a brief conversation,
Lord BELHAVE N consented to withdraw the bill.
LAW AND EQUITY BILL.
The house went into committee on this bill.
fhe LORD CHANCELLOR said the select committee to
which this bill was referred had struck out several most
material clauses, but he hoped the house might before long
be induced to adopt them. The bill; as it stood, still con-
tained important amendments of the law which he believed
would be found beneficial in prat' ice, and he therefore sub-
mitted it to the favourable consideration of their lordships.
Two clauses had been omitted by mistake, and he believed
there was no objection to their introduction.
Lord BROUGHAM shared in the regret expressed by his
noble and learned friend at the decision which had been
arrived at by the select committee. He hoped that next
year, he would not say a wiser, but a different opinion might
prevail.

Lord CHELMSFORD dissented from the view taken by
the noble and learned lords who had just addressed the
committee.

The LORD CHANCELLOR said the supporters of the
bill in its original shape had been only compelled to yield to
what lawyers called the vis major, which could not be re-
sisted.

The bill then passed through committee.
CALEDONIAN AND CRINAN CANALS BILL.
The:report of amendments was received and agreed to.
Their lordships adjourned at five minutes to 7,o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS. (YESTERDAY.)
The SPEAKER took the chair at four o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.
The Lords' amendments to the following bills were con-
sidered and agreed to, and the bills were ordered for third
reading :—Conway and Llanrwst Railway, Mersey Docks
and Harbour Board, and Watchet Harbour.
The Kilrush and Kilkee Railway and Poulnasherry
Embankment Bill was read a third time and passed.
PETITIONS.
Several petitions were presented against the religious
profession clause in the Census Bill, against certain clauses
in the Poor Law Act, and praying for their amendment,
against the extension of the Wine Licenses Act to Scotland
during the present year, by the Attorney-General in favour
of the Bankruptcy and Insolvency (Salaries) Bill, and the
Bankruptcy and Insolvency Bill, sce,
LEAVE OF ABSENCE.
On the motion of Mr. BLACKBURN, leave of absence was
given to Mr. H. Baillie for three weeks, in consequence of
ill-health.

_
NEW WRIT.
On the motion of Mr. BRAND, a writ was ordered for
the election of a burgess to serve
.in Parliament for the
borough of Brighton, in the room of Admiral Sir G. B.
Pechell, deceased.
THE BREACH OF PRIVILEGE.
Lord FERMOY gave notice that to-morrow he would
move a resolution to the effect that, " The rejection
by the House of Lords of the bill for the repeal of the duty
on paper is an innovation of the:rights and privileges of the
house, and that it is incumbent on the House of Commons
to adopt practical measures for the restoration of such
rights and privileges. (Hear, hear, and laughter.)
RATING GOVERNMENT ESTABLISHMENTS.
Mr. Alderman SALOMONS asked the Secretary of State
for the Home Department if the arrangements for rating
the Government establishments were so far completed as to
admit of a supplementary estimate being brought forward
during the present session ?
Sir G. LEWIS said he believed the arrangements in
question were completed, and he hoped the Government
would be able to lay en the table the estimates Atteeseary to

carry into effect these arrangements before the end of the
session.

TRANSFER OF REAL ESTATES, &c.
Mr. HOPWOOD asked the Attorney-General whether
he intended to proceed this session with the bill to amend
the law relating to the transfer of real estates and the title
thereto ?
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that he had been
struggling for four months to make some progress with
this bill, but without success, and at this stage of the ses-
sion he would not bring in the bill.
THE CENSUS BILL.

Sir C. DOUGLAS asked the First Lord of the Treasury
what course the Government would pursue with reference
to the question of "religious profession," as proposed
in the Census Bill. He hoped that a satisfactory
answer would be given to his question by the GovQrnment
—if it was not so—(cries of " Order")—he trusted, when
they went into committee on thebill, that the objectionable
clause would not be persevered in.
Lord PALMERSTON said that when the bill came on
next Wednesday her Majesty's Government would be pre-
pared to state the course they intended to adopt.

_
SUPPLY.
Mr. DISRAELI expressed a hope that the Government
would not proceed with supply at a late hour that night,
and inquired what course the right hon. gentleman the
Chancellor of the Exchequer proposed to adopt in reference
to the resolution on the paper duty ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that

in the course of a few days he would amend the zesolution
referred to, but it would not be brought forwaitl until the
house had ample notice on the subject.

THE CENSUS BILL.

Sir J. TRELAWNY said that the answer of the noble
lord (Lord Palmerston) to the question of the hon. baronet
(Sir C. Douglas) was very unsatisfactory—(hear, hear)—
and that the noble lord in that answer had not shown re-
spect for his party. (Hear, hear.) Ho begged to give
notice that when the bill was brought on ho would
move amendments even in committee of supply until this
question was satisfactorily settled. (Hear.)
After a few remarks from Mr. 13ARRow and Mr. MARTIN,
Sir G. LEWIS said that the two bills which stood before
the Census Bill for Wednesday were not likely to:occupy
much time, and there would be ample time for the considers-
__

tion of the measure. If not, however, he would fix an eaily
day for its discussion.

Mr. B. OSBORNE said that the two bills alluded to
wore the Charities Bill and the Education Bill, and
they were not likely to be disposed of so soon
as the honourable baronet (Sir G. C. Lewis) considered.
This bill had caused considerable excitement among the
Dissenters, who were the best supporters of the noble lord's
(Palmerston) Government. He did not think that the
reply of the noble lord or the statement of the right hon.
baronet (Sir G. C. Lewis) satisfactory, and he asked the
latter if he intended to retain the bill in its present obnoxi-
ous form? The house had a right to be informed whether
the Government intended to proceed with the bill.
Mr. HATFIELD and Lord ENFIELD expressed dissent to
the clause relating to profession of religious belief.
Sir G. LEWIS said it was impossible, according to the
forms of the house, to fix an earlier day than that named
for the consideration of the bill. It was not usual to en-
deavour to anticipate the course Government intended to
take with respect to any particular bill; and he repeated
that he did not believe that the two bills which
preceded the Census Bill for Wednesday would occupy
much time, and when the bill came on he would state the
intentions of Government.

BANKRUPTCY AND INSOLVENCY (SALARIES,

So.) BILL.

The adjourned debate on the report of the committee on
this bill was resumed.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that as some days
had elapsed since the recent vote of the house in committee,
on an important clause of this bill, it might be convenient
for him to state the position in which it stood. It had been
necessary to devise some means of repairing the mis-
chief done by that vote. The clause from which,
by that vote, certain words were struck out, was one
relating to certain compensations created in 1831, but it
created no compensations, and the bill proposed to do more
than had been recommended by the royal commission, as a
step dictated by justice and equity. The object of that clause
was to relieve the suitors in bankruptcy from an enormous
burthen which never ought to have been laid upon them.
The fees which he proposed to remit amounted to nearly
£90,000 a year, and the step he would have taken was to
throw those charges, which were penalties to be paid for the
bad state of things altered in 1831, upon the consolidated
fund, instead of leaving them to be borne by the suitors of
the Court of Bankruptcy. In consequence, however, of that
vote it had become nocessat yto alter the arrangement of
the bill altogether. He had found, however, that he should
be able to do this without much inconvenience, and if he
had suggested the probability of his not going on with the
bill, it was because ho had received three blows, or three
adverse decisions upon it from his own side of the house.
He felt greatly indebted to hon. and learned gentlemen on
the opposite side, especially to Sir H. Cairns, Mr. M
Sir F. Kelly, and Mr. Whiteside, for their generous and en-

lightened support. The blows he had suffered were rather
from the friends of the Government. (Cheers and a laugh.)
This was a bill which not twenty gentlemen in
the house had read, and certainly which they did
not understand; therefore it was of no use to
go on with it if every gentleman was to do what was right
in his own eyes, whether he understood the matter or not ;
there should be more disposition to put confidence in the
Government upon this question. The right hon. member
for Coventry and the hon. memberforNottingham, amongst
others, had voted against him on that clause of the bill,
although the whole body of the manufacturers and mer-
chants whom they represented were in favour of the bill.
Ho would yet go on with the bill, being sincerely anxious
to pass it. The arrangement he now proposed was this. He
would leave the additional salaries of the county court
judges charged on the consolidated fund, but provide an
addition to the consolidated fund as would amply compen-
sate for that charge. The county court judges had been
treated unequally, and he thought unfairly. They were
divided into three classes, some having £1,500 a year, a few
£1,350, and the rest £1,200. The effect of this bill would be
to give them considerable additional labour, particularly
those who had only £1,200 a year. He therefore proposed
to make all the salaries £1,500 a year. But in return for
that, he thought the county court fees would bear some
augmentation. The proportion now paid on the amount of
the claims was 10d. in the pound, and it was proposed to
augment that to ls. At present nothing was paid for the
service of the summons, and consequently the summonses
were frequently taken out vexatiously ; it was therefore pro-
posed to place a very small fee on the service of the sum-
mons. But so numerous were the plaints and the summonses,
that this trifling additional amount, which had been recom-
mended by 50 out of the 57 county court judges, would
bring into consolidated fund £34,000 a year. The sum he
proposed to devote to increasing the salaries of county
court judges was £11,500 a year, so that the consolidated
fund would bo a considerable gainer. He would leave
the compensations and retiring annuities which were
given by the acts of 1831 charged as they now were.
He proposed that the bankruptoy accounts should be placed
before parliament every year, and that a vote for the defi-
ciency should be asked for from parliament, up to the let
of April in the next year. In that way he expected that
the amount of fees now paid upon bankrupt estates, but
which in reality were paid out of the pockets of the creditors
—he expected to diminish these fees to the amount of
£90,000 a year. There was a most serious per centage upon
estates in bankruptcy, which on an average of seven or
eight years amounted to about £38,000. He proposed to
take that away altogether. In addition to that there were
the large and oppressive per centages which had been re-
ceived by the official assignees, amounting, he observed,
during the last year to nearly £51,000. He proposed to
abolish them altogether. Of course in making these large
deductions he put faith in the great increase in the income
of the court, which he expected would be caused by bring-
ing all trustees for creditors and composition deeds within
the reach of the law of bankruptcy. The house would re-
member that the great feature of the present bill was to
make the law of bankruptcy part of the ordinary law of
debtor and creditor. As the matter at present stood, they
could not have the aid of the law of bankruptcy without
not only going into court but administering the whole of
the estate in the court. But it frequently happened that
they wanted some of the powers of the law of bankruptcy
for a particular purpose, and he proposed to give that bene-
fit to all trustees, all creditors, all parties to deeds of com-
position, upon their paying an inconsiderable stamp duty
and being registered in the Court of Bankruptcy. At
present a great part of the insolvency business was con-
ducted in a most irregular manner. All estates of im-
portance were carefully kept out of the Court of Bank-
ruptcy. All insolvencies of any magnitude were
made the subject of private arrangement. There was no
record of the state of insolvency, but under this improved
system he trusted there would be a perfect register. These
deeds of composition, according to the best returns,
amounted to about £90,000 per annum ; he calculated that
under the new system they would not exceed £6,000 per
annum. He proposed that, on all these proceedings there
should be a small stamp, in return for which the parties
would get the benefit of the administration in bankruptcy ;
they would have the opportunity of resorting to the court
instead of being driven as they were now to the necessity of
making private arrangements. He hoped and trusted that
the alteration would be beneficial rather than the contrary.
There were many matters of detail upon which there might
well be a difference of opinion. He stated in bringing in the
bill that there were many points on which he wished to have
a deliberate discussion in the house. He trusted, therefore,
that they might nowgo on with the bill. He had brought
it is to the hope of reemiag this great merantils nation,