The Sun.
London, England, 1860-03-17 00:00:00

LONDON; nSATURDAYEVENING, MARCH 17, 1860.

present, I think I ought to state to the house that there was
delivered to me yesterday a despatch from M. Thouvenel to
Count Persigny, in which the writer asks that the case of
the annexation of Savoy might be laid before her Majesty's
Government for their consideration. The despatch is a
very temperate one. It is clear altogether of natural boun-
daries. It states the case as one of special interests, arising
from special circumstances, namely, that the position of
Italy is changed, that the position of France is thereby
changed, and that therefore this is a special case that de-
serves special consideration. But although it is stated in
the despatch that this question is submitted to the wisdom
and equity of Europe, yet I must say, taking the whole of
the despatch together, and considering the term used, that
it is necessary for France to have a secure frontier, I think
I should hardly be justified in saying that the powers of
Europe are consulted, and that by their verdict the French
empire will be guided. I have not yet laid this despatch
on the table, but I am stating all that I know on the sub-
ject. We shall consider maturely what answer shall be
given to this despatch ; but the whole despatch, and espe-
cially that part of it which relates to the question that my
hon. friend the member for Tamworth takes such interest
in—the question of Faucigny and Chablais—is one of so
much gravity and importance that, without saying more
about it at present, I will nevertheless add that it requires
most grave considerations. I shall lose no time in laying
the despatch and the answer to it on the table. (Hear,
hear.)
Mr. HALIBURTON attempted to say a few words in
explanation, but the Speaker would not permit him to ad-
dress the house a second time.
SALE OF GAS ACT.
Mr. H. E. SHERIDAN asked the President of the
Board of Trade, whether the Lords of the 'Treasury were
now prepared to carry out the provisions of the Sale of
Gas Act, and to have the " gas holder" at once deposited at
the Exchequer. office.
Mr. M. GIB SON said that a great deal of discussion had
taken place with regard to the difficulties which arose from
the defects of the law. He had come to the conclusion that
the act did not require immediate amendment, and that it
might be carried into execution. (Hear.) He had communi-
cated that opinion to the Betted of Trade, but otherwise he
could not interfere, the act irVing to the Board of Ti ado no
authority whatever. (Hear.)
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. BOUVEILIE said that what occurred that evening
induced him again to enter his protest at t he mode in which
their proceedings were conducted, and which were in direct
and gross violation of the standing orders. They had now
wasted bet Ween four and five Lours of 'valuable time in talk-
ing upon a great variety of subjects, upon which, however
important some of them might be, they could come to no
conclusion. According to the standing orders, the orders of
the day were to take precedence of all other business ; but
he had taken the trouble of making a note of the questions
that had been raised upon the question for adjourning tilt
Monday that night, and the time they occupied. In the
first place the hon. member for Finsbury bad taken them
into Kent and raised a ten minutes' discussion on the Kent
coroners. That seeely was not a very urgent subject ;
the next was a 25 minutes' discussion on the Nawab of
the Carnatic, raised, he was sorry to say, by a Scotch mem-
ber, because they very seldom impeded businese. • Next
the hon. baronet (Sir F. Smith) had raised a 10 minutes'
debate upon the college at Sandhurst, arid, after that,
came three or four minor Indian questions, followed by
a great debate of 45 minutes on the removal of Irish poor
—tin important question, but one that ought to have
been discussed on a substantive motion, and not treated
in this cursory and inconclusive style. His hon. friend
the member for Pontefract (Mr. Milnes), who was a great
sinner in this respect, had occupied 15 minutes on a
subject which did not come properly under the notice of
the house at all, and he was followed by the member for
Launceston (Mr. Haliburton), who carried them oft to the
Island of St. Pierre ; and lastly, they had the dissuasion on
Savoy, and the important statement of the noble lord, the
discussion having taken up another half-hour. Now, that
statement would have been much better made to a full house
at five o'clock than in a thin one, when the Members were
away at dinner. In fact, the way in which they acted was
damaging them in the estimation of the country as business
men. (Hear, hear.) Looking back at their course that
night, it reminded him of nothing so much as the song with
• which Mr. Albert Smith wound up his entertainment, and
rattled over the topics of the day. (Laughter, and " Sing
it.") , He could not renew this session the motion on which
he had been defeated, but he gave notice that the week after
next he would move that the motion for adjournment be made
on Thursdays instead of Fridays,'and then it would remain
to be seen whether members would curtail their own privi-
leges after having taken the chance of the ballot by bring-
ing forward such questions. (Hear.)
The motion for adjournment was then agreed to.
CHINA.
On the motion of going into committee of supply,
Sir DE L. EVANS rose to move Fs amendment. The
gallant general observed that when he had mentioned the
subject on a former occasion the noble lord said he was ex-
pecting papers from Mr. Br uce. Those papers had been re-
ceived and published, and it appeared from them that Mr.
Bruce was doing nothing, because he was looking for des-
patches from the noble lord. Vast preparations were being
made for an expedition to China, an expedition to pay for
which the sum mentioned by the Chancellor of the Exchequer
would go but a little way. The Secretary for War slid not,
when the subject was before the house, state the exact
amount of the force which was going from India, but he
understood him not to admit that his (the gallant general's)
estimate of it was correct. He believed that a large quantity
of artillery had been sent to China, and a large battery and
several thousand marines, and altogether there could not be
less than 40,000 men. It was possible that the Government
had sent out orders that this force should be diminished. It
was no doubt of portentous • magnitude, and he could not
see that it would be required. (Hear, hear.) It created an
opinion that some serious aggression or conquest was en-
tertained. That it would involve a great expense was clear,
and perhaps next year they would have to submit to an in-
creased income tax. (Hear,) The hon. and gallant member
then referred to a despatch of Lord Elgin's, in reference
to the payment of all expenses by the Chinese Govermpent.
The noble lord said that to fix any sum as an indemnity
would be a difficult thing to do; and he came to the con-
clusion, upon certain grounds apart from those of morality
and justice, that it would not be wise to drive the Chi-
nese Government to despair by demanding a large sum,
and it might, too, compel them to resort to measures of re-
sistance. The noble lord adopted the view that theie Would
not be much chance of obtaining an indemnity. The house
would recollect that the troops were proceeding from a dis-
tance of 5,000 voiles, and the stores were being sent 15,000
miles, All these matters would cost an enormous sum of
money. (Hear.) The first object which he had in N:ew
was to induce the Government to select some diplomatist
who should take charge of this great force now ordered for
China. So long as the matter was in doubt he did not press
it en the Government, but within the laSt few days they
had been formally told that Lord Elgin was to be sent to
Chink, and that information had put an end to all anxiety
on the subject—because, no doubt, a very considerable con-
fidence was placed in the judgment of that noble lord; and
as the great object was to obtain a ratification of the treaty
of commerce which he had concluded, he would be the fittest
person for the duty to be performed. To be sure, it was to
be regretted that Lord Elgin did not remain at his post
longer on the former occasion, and complete the work which
he had begun. (Hear.) It appeared that these great forces
of the fleet and army would be under the direction of two
plenipotentiaries, two admirals, and' tw3 generals, and if
they get on harmoniously it would much surprise
him, and
they would be as happy a family as they saw in other
places sometimes. (Laughter.) However, they were all
men of g feat ability, and it ww to be hoped they would
not well together. It was desirable that the house should
know whether the Government of this country had ar-
ranged with the Government of France how far these ope-
rations were to extend. (Hear.) It was said the army was to
be disembarked at the mouth of theTeiho, and march thence
to Pekin. Now, one-fourth of the army to be employed would
overthrow any Chinese force that "could oppose it, and
therefore,, sending such a large army to Pekin might bi
detrimental to the stability of the Chinese Government.
This was to be an inland war, whereas, on the former occa-
sions, they were naval attacks. He did not say that some
decided military demonstration might not be necessary to
restore the proper feeling towards this country, and to place
matters on a satisfactory footing, but he hoped the spirit of
the language in her Majesty's Speech would not be a dead
letter, but be acted upon. It should be recollected that in
this war there would beno glory to be obtained, and he won-
dered that the French _Goimrnment should have entered

into it, but he supposed it was in consequence of having a
large army unemployed. He held out these objections, and
he hoped the noble lord would be able to inform the house
that a reguldrebnvention or agreement had been entered
into with the French Government, and that the matter
would not be left to the chance orders of this Government
or that general. If there should not be some settled agree-
' talent for operations they would perhaps find next year that
the expenses of the war had been increased to £8,000,600 or
£10,000,000, instead of the sum which would now be asked
for. The hon. and gallant member then moved the follow-
ing amendment instead of the one which, he had placed on
- the notice paper :—" That, humbly participating in the
wish expressed in her Majesty's Speech on the opening
of this session of Parliament, viz.—' That she will be gra-
tified if the prompt acquiescence of the Emperor of China
in the moderate demands which will be made upOn him by
the allies shall obviate the necessity for the employment of
for" ;' and that, in the judgment of this house, the mode-
ration of policy thus indicated on the part of Eer Majesty
and that of her ally, the Emperor of the French, will best
anconattbute to diminish expenditure, avert complications,
promote commerce, the interests of justice, and the
establishment of peace."
Lord J. RUSSELLsaid that with respect to the ques.
Hon of his hon. and gallant friend relative to the question
which he had last raised as tothe military operations in
China, it would obviously be
Y unwise of the Govern-
ment to state the exact giveninstructvioenra
country. to the naval and
military commanders sent from
this u
wThet house
agree with him that it would be unwise
o make
those instructions so extremely strict that
ofileoeurns
dis-
tance of 15,000 miles should find themselves bound
in any, and all circumstances; (Hear, hear.) With his '
hon. and gallant friend he hoped it would not be necessary
for our troops to march to Pekin, but ho thought the Go-
vernment would be departing from their duty if they gave -
special instructions that there should be no march on that
city. "With regard to the terms of the negotiations, those

should not be settled, on account of the circumstances which
had lately occurred. Instructions had been drawly up for

Lord Elgin, in'which the French Government concurred

generally; but•ther6 were some points upon which thfy
wished for further explanations, and her Majesty's Go-

vernment considered the better way would be that Lord
Elgin: who was well tit quainted with Baron Gros, with

whom he had acted on the former Chinese mission in terms
of the greatest cordiality, should go to Paris and consult
with M. Thouvenel and Baron Gros on those points in re-
spect of which explanations were required. One of the
questions to be settled was whether Lord Elgin and Baron
Gros should have the supreme command of the naval and
military operations. That seemed to be a right principle,
but it must be observed that the :naval and military com-
manders might find themselves in such a position as that it
would be impossible for them to stop with safety to the
troops and the ships. (Hear, hear.) These were points
which had not yet been settled. As regarded the necessity
for a display of military force, seeing that 400 or 500 men
had been killed and wounded by an ambuscade—(no, no)—
he thought that the lives and property of Englishmen in
that country would not be safe if in some way or another
the Chinese were not required to make reparation for that
result. (Hear, hear.) Some persons said the passage up the
river was without notice to .the Chinese, but Mr. Bruce
showed that that was not so, but that he had required to be
allowed to go up with the skips, and that he should be re •
ceived in an honourable manner. There was no positive re-
fusal, but the commissioner at Shanghai desired to send first
to Pekin, and the time he required for the purpose was un-
reasonably long. When Mr. Bruce had arrived at the Peiho
he found no Chinese authorities there, and the people were
acting without orders ; and, whether Mr. Bruce was acting
rightly or wrongly, he and Admiral Hope went up to the
mouth of the river without any notice that their passage
would be obstructed. That having happened, and a great
loss of life and property having occurred, there must be
some reparation. (Hear, hear.) The demands made were ex-
ceedingly moderate. The treaty had been concluded, and
only required to be ratified. The Government, also de-
manded that some apology should be made for the outrage
which had been committed. That being done, it was pro-
posed that the British Minister should go up to Pekin
and obtain the ratification of the treaty. With regard to
the whole matter no one could regret it more than him.
self. There was no question of boundary to be settled, or
other matters of that kind. All that they sought for was
trade with the Chinese; and, in order that that might be
carried on, the Government required security for the lives
and property of their people. He would state that in late
years trade had enormously increased at Shanghai and
at other places, and that a large number of persons were
engaged in it, and of course they were liable to disputes.
It was therefore desirable that our Minister should
have the privsilege of resorting to the chief powers and
places in China, and not be confined to Canton and to
intercourse with the Governor there. He thought the
British Minister should have the option of residing at Pekin
or anywhere else where interests of trade required it. It
might be that he should reside at Shanghai, and go occa-
sionally to Pekin; but better arrangements than the pre-
sent were eminently desirable. (Hear.) Lord Elgin would
soon return, and would then proceed on his mission. His
hon. and gallant friend seemed to think that no better choice
could have been made, and that no man was more anxious
to maintain peaceful relations with the Chinese. His lord -
ship had acquired en esteem for that people, and a strong
wish for their welfare ; ma he (Lord J. Russell) believed
that both he and Baron 'Gros were animated by the most
pacific sentiments, and that better could not have been done
than to send them out as plenipotentiaries. He believed he
had now troubled the house with all that was necessary to
be said on the subject.
, Sir J. ELPHINSTONE regretted that, whilst sketching
out the proposed naval end ro'litary operations, the noble
lord had not also given them some comprehensive plan for
the settlement of our fuLare relations with China. With
the permission of house he (Sir J. Elphinstone) should
give it slight sketch of our policy and position in China
down to the present time. In 1832 the charter of the East
India Company came to an end, and there was consequently
a total change in our relations with the Chinese Govern-
ment. Instead of a monopoly opposed to a monopoly, car-
ried on by a disciplined body, acting up to all treaty stipu.
lations, the trade was thrown open to traders of any sort,
who, kelieving China to be an Eldorado, flocked to that
country from all parts. Our Government sent out a noble-
man to superintend that trade, but, instead of being accre-
dited as a plenipotentiary and supported by a sufficient force,
Lord Napier landed in the dead of the night, end was only
recognised by the chief of the police. He was conse-
quently subjected to serious insults, and the trade was
stopped. The results that followed led to the first Chinese
war, and then Sir H. Pottinger was sent out to settle
the question. He concluded the treaty with Nankin
after a series of hostilities which brought the Chinese
Government into great discredit with the people, and his
treaty was designated the seven years' settlement. Matters
dragged on under this treaty for years, during which British
subjects were persecuted with every indignity. The affair
of the Arrow was only the culminating; point of a serious
difficulty. He thought her Majesty's government had been
right in that affair, and had he been then in Parliament he
should have given them his support. (Hear, hear.) The
second Chinese war resulted in the mission of Lord Elgin,
into which he would not go further than to say that in his
judgment the whole 'operations were conducted not only
with singular ability by the gallant admiral and the pleni-
potentiary, but that everything that up to that time was
done was well done. (Hear, hear.) They had then the
treaty which was now before them, which although a great
improvement on that of Sir H. Pottinger did not embrace a
sufficiently comprehensive view of Chinese poicy. He
hoped that Lord Elgin might be able to effect his object
without the effusion of blood, and that his lordship would be
able to effect everything he had undertaken. But he en-
tirely differed from what the noble lord had shadowed forth
in his remarks, and he thought it would be a most fatal mis-
take if our troops advanced on Pekin. These was no doubt
but that the insult which had been passed upon us required
retribution, but he thought that, in the first instance, it
ought to be put, to the Chinese to give an ample apology
and compensation for the lives and property that had been
destroyed. His plan would be to fall back on the city of
Nankin. That was the strategic point from which the em-
pire could be paralysed. The party that held that city had so
complete a control of the producing districts that it would be
perfectly impossible for the Emperor to collect his revenue
so long as that city was held by a foreign Power. The empire
of China was intersected by two of the largest rivers in the
world—the, Yang-tse-Kiang and the Hoanho—the first
rising in the mountains of Thibet, and the other more to
the north, and both falling into the sea. These two rivers
watered all the great producing districts of China, and any
force occupying Nankin not only commanded the Grand
Canal, but commanded also the mouths of the rivers.
Having reduced the Taku forts and the defences of the Pei.
ho, the army should fall back on Nankin, which should be
occupied until the Emperor conceded our demands. If you
went on to Pekin you must start in the middle of April,
and would arrive at the mouth of the Pciiho, when, with
40,000 men, you would reduce the fat is. By the time you
had done this August would have arrived; and it was the
universal opinion of every gentleman who knew anything
about China that the Emperor would retire into Mantchou-
ria, leaving your army in an immense city, and surrounded
by a vast and turbulent population. The September winds
swept over the steppe from the Amor, and the thermome-
ter would probably fall from 30 to 40 degrees below zero.
Sheepskin-clad Tartars in myriads would harass the
,in-
vaders, thus placed 600 miles from their base of operations.
Whence would they get their supplies. He would not im-
pose upon any officer the duty of placing the Queen's troops
in such a position. (Hear, hear.) They had heard of the
disaster of Cabul—let them not tempt the repetition of such
a terrible calamity. (Hear, hear.) There was no doubt but
that the army they were sending out would go through any
Asiatic army that could be, collected; but the difficulty
would be in getting the latter together to be slaughtered.
They must remember that the Chinese were the mosfsublie
People in the world, and that they would exhaust all pos-
sible means to prevent our getting to Pekin, and afterwards
to harass us when our troops had taken possession of that
city. His Policy, then, would be to take possession of Nan-
kin with a force of gun-boats, and to keep the rivers clear,
as by so doing the producing districts would be brought
under our command, and the war to a speedy and satisfae - tory conclusion. The Chinese rebellion was not a matter of
yesterday. In 1820 the rebels were in force in Kwance•tung,
and the Americans were employed to resist them. He re-
membered an Americdn of the name of Magee, who kept a
public-house, and who was made a Mandarin of the Pea-
cock's Feather for his services. (. laugh.) Then, in 1849,
a movement took place which was a sort of semi-Christian
movement. There was also the movement:of the triad socie-
ties, the members of which became pirates. Our policy
throughout these events had been of a most vacillatin g
character, sometimes assisting the imperialists, and some-
times the rebels. In 1855 the rebels came down to Shanghai
and were supplied with ammunition by the mercantile com-
munity. Three hundred blue jackets and marines defended
proceeded.
the European community, and Captain O'Callaghan, who
commanded them, had never been sufficien ye wded,s deed-.
The
de-
spatches, ant
.c
es,
memberdes
ex.
ihpetri here e readof
this extractsstat
eoffr
affairs, o from Lordan
dEplgon
He knew that the rebels had never been able to create any
sort of Government themselves, so that our only chance of
maintaining any sort of regularity at all was 'to support th
Imperial Govermhent as we found it. The noble lord at
the head of foreign affairs pointed out in his statement that
evening the eventuality, in case of other negotiations fail-

ing, that wemust resort to some sort of indemnification from
the Chinese, but he (Sir J. Elphinstone) held that we could

not Secure any indemnification unless we held the export
duties in our own hands, and Lord Elgin took the same view
of tho matterin a despatch to Lord Malmesbury in July 1858
He (Sir J. Elphinstone) thought it would be unwise to drive
the Chinese to resistance and despair, which would only in-
crease the unpopurarity of such a measure, and would create
sympathy with the rfaels, by insisting upon the settleinent
of pecuniary claims which, under no circumstances, ►
could be reasonably satisfied. That, he thought, settled
the question of indemnity.
Lord J. RUSSELL—The claim, then, was £1,200,000.
Sir J. ELPHINSTONE thought that 1,200,000 dollars
would be as difficult to obtain from the Chinese as
£1,200,000.

Lord J. RUSSELL—That was an indemnity for the mer-
chants and the Government under the treaty of Tien-tsin.
Sir J. ELPIIINST6NE—Yes, but the noble lord asked
an indemnity for the great armaments we were now senda
ing out. But they had the Persian expedition to guide
them in their calculations as to the probable amount of the
coat of that expedition to China. Ti}e Persian expedition

lasted only four or five months, and the cost was £2,500,000,
which the people of England were called upon to pay. How
much of that amount was laid upon that willing horse, our
Indian empire, he could not say, but that amount was ex-
pended upon a small force going a distance of 3,500 miles.
Now the distance from Bombay to the mouth of the Peiho
was upwards of 5,000 miles, from Calcutta 4,700 miles, and
from Madras 4,800 miles. The price of coal for the expe-
dition to the Peiho would be £3 per ton ; the horses, artil-
lery, and attendants upon an army of 10,000 or 12,000 men
going such a distance must be much larger than what was
required forthe Persian expedition, and the basis of opera-
tions being India the army must carry the greater part of
its supplies with it. But, supposing the whole thing to be
done in a few weeks—though he did not expect it would
take less than 12 months—before the expedition could be
at an end, and .supposing it would not be necessary to
leave any force in the country to make the provisions of
the treaty be carried out, in that case his belief was
that they would not get out of this Chinese war
at a less cost than £10,000,000. (Hear, hear.) And
yet they had a deficiency of £6,000,000, or £7,000,000,
or £8,000,000, of which no account was taken, but which
must eventually come out of their pockets. (Hear, hear.)
That was the reason why he had steadily opposed the mea-
sures taken by the present Government. (Hear, hear.) He
could not conceive what brought them into this Chinese
matter at all. (Hear, hear.) Sixteen years ago, when he
went backwards and forwards to China, the whole of the
French trade to that country was represented by one ship,
laden with claret, which took back toys and a little tea.
He believed that trade had a little increased now, but he
was sorry to say, in a most unfavourable direction. Now,
the French ships were carrying coolies: That was a sys-
tem of slavery which had been growing up and would come
to a very insupportable pitch, and would increase the dis-
like of Europeans, and especially of the English, because
they could not draw a distinction between us and other na-
tions which had no great trade with China ; the odium
would all be laid upon the English, who were the only
Europeans known to the Chinese. That coolie question
must be dealt with, and other . questions also which were
eating up the vitals of every Chinese treaty until we took
the matter up as we ought to do, and settled it, now that we
lied an opportunity of placing our trade with China in a
position of security, such as became a great Christian na-
tion. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. BRIGHT said when the speech with which her Ma-
jesty opened the present session of Parliament first met his
eyes he was glad to observe the paragraph which referred
to these unhappy affairs in China, inasmuch as it indicated
a disposition on the part of the government to avoid re-
opening a war with China. The resolution moved by his
hon. friend near him (Sir De L. Evans) was in effect 'call-
ing upon the house to support the policy indicated in her
Majesty's speech, which was such as he was ewe every,
member of that house would be willing to vote for, and
which the Government would be willing to accept. Ano-
ther object of that resolution was to enable the noble lord
the Foreign Secretary to make that statement which he
gave the house to understand a few nights ago be in-
tended to make upon these Chinese affairs. He (Mr.
Bright) confessed he was a good deal disappointed with
that statement. The noble lord told the house
scarcely anything, except that the amount of force being
sent to China was only one-half as much as was stated
by his hon. friend. It appeared to him that, on occa-
sions of that sort, when the country might be dragged
into a bloody and costly contest, it was the duty of the
Foreign Minister to be a little more explicit. (Hear, hear.)
They had the case of the Persian war before them, to which
the hon. baronet opposite had alluded, which cost this
country upwards of £2,000,000 of nioney, about which they
had heard nothing—when it began, or how it was carried on
—except that they had to pay the enormous amount which
it cost the country. (Hear, hear.) They were, now appa-
rently involved in another transaction of a similar character,
Which he thought the most robust conscience in that house
would decline to accept as an honourable cause. (Hear,
hear.) Let them for a moment trace the progress of these
transactions. He would not go back to the original China
war, which was as bad a thing as could be, but only to the
war commenced by the indiscretion—to use no harsher
term—of the English Plenipotentiary, Sir J. Bowring.
That war was based upon a fraud, and that which the House
of Commons condemned as a positive lie. And, though,
when there was a dissolution, a large majority was retur aed
to support the Minister then in office, no Minister ever
dared to reverse that decision, and he believed there scarcely
existed now a doubt throughout the country as to the folly
and guilt of that transaction. (Hear, hear.) Well, that
war came to an end, and a treaty was made under the
auspices of a noble lord now in the Cabinet. He thought
there was a grievous error in the formation of that treaty.
There seemed to be a constant wish to introduce something
into those treaties which should have the effect of special
aggravation to the Chinese, but which no man could ever
prove to be of the smallest use to the trade or the honour
of this country. For instance, one thing was insisted upon
which had never before been heard of in China—that
an English Minister should reside in Pekin. Now, it was
a question still open whether it was worth while keeping a
Minister at any court in the world--(a laugh)—and whether
it would not be better to have all our ambassadors with-
drawn; and, when we had special questions to arrange with
foreign Courts, to send out apecial ambassadors for the pur-
pose. But however that may be, the question must be de-
cided by the European Powers. That man must have a
wonderful notion of English policy and English Commerce
who thought that anything could be gained by sending
some veteran diplomatist to reside at Pekin, which was a
place Where, of all others, he would probably be least com-
fortable, and certainly least wetted. (Hear, hear.) That
was a clause insisted on in the treaty with the especial ob-
ject of humiliating the Chinese and giving a proof of the
absolute supremacy and triumph which the arms of Eng-
land had obtained over the feeble Government of China.
Now they came from the question of the treaty to the ques-
tion of its ratification. For his own part he could never un-
derstand why a nobleman .who had arranged this treaty
should not have stayed in China until the whole thing was_
finished. There might, however, have been reasons for
Lord Elgin's return, and it might be that the Minister who
succeeded him had shown himself as competent as any other
man in the subordinate situations he had filled. On this
second case he (Mr. Bright) maintained we were just as
wrong as we were in the case at Canton nnder Sir J. Bow-
ring. All the arguments which the noble lord the Secretary
for Foreign Affairs used in 1857 would be valid against the
case he had in some sort apologised for to-night. The noble
lord spoke of the treachery that had been exercised against
the forces of England, but they had it on the authority of
an English officer engaged in that sanguinary and unhappy
affair—a gentleman holding the rank of captain, and a near
relative of a dignitary of the Church—that there was no
treachery whatever, and what was more, that if the Chinese
had intended to be treacherous, not one single vessel or one
person on board could have survived. (Hear, hear.) The
fact was it was not worth our while, as sensible men in-
volved in the discredit of these transactions, to try to cover
up these things by charges of treachery against the Chinese.
The real charge was one of utter folly and imbecility on
the part of our own Minister, and, notwithstanding all
that might be said of the valour 'of our admiral, of great
indiscretion on his part. (llear, hear.) He held that pru-
dence and valour were twins, and together they did great
things, but separate they ended in disasters like this—(hear)
—and he had no patience in hearing hon. members con-
stantly praising the valour of commanders of vessels on oc
casions of this nature. There could be no doubt that the
number sacrificed were sacrificed to the bad arrangements
of the admiral and the lolly of our Minister; and that was
not his opinion alone, but the opinion of those who had sur-
vived, and he felt sure of 99 out of every 100 of reflecting
men in England who had read through carefully the name-
tive of these miserable transactions. (Hear, hear.) Up to
this point, however, no one could blame the present Go-
vernment, because the noble lord had only taken office a few
weeks when this business occurred at the river Peiho. But
he thought the noble lord and his colleagues did not show
that judgment which might have been expected of them
when they heard the narrative of these transactions. It ap-
peared to him that no man living could read the despatches
and the narratives—whether they came from Chinese papers,
correspondents of London newspapers in China, Indian
papers, or from private sources—without coming to the con-
clusion that Mr. Bruce had been guilty of great want of
judgment, and that the consequence was a most disastrous
failure. But what ought to be done with a man who showed
a lack of judgment and failed disastrously ? He did not
pretend to say but that many of those present might fail in
judgment in many affairs of their lives; but when a Mini-
ster, placed in a responsible position 15,000 miles away from
heneee'committed an error so grievous as this, and brought
about a stake of things so alarming to all the people of this
country, troheuetii,ol first thiag the Government should do should
bni t
whomn
moreche
office
nothing
gftios
responsibility,continueect
hy
could.
ou la mhboaupa.
et guiltyttoosupply
find
no
d of
sounder
:sins
dg
place
ea
judgment
b failuresome i
mannand
e(;
absurdexhibited.
wihitshoppienoiopnl;
through the agency of a Minister who had made a failure
in his first ana only trr,nsaction with them, and whose
be ,
ortgs
mind must necessarily
greatly
would
lyirritated by the !allure
that had attended his eff
be impossible to
pick out a single man so entirely unfitted to have the con-
duct of tlese future negotiations es complications, what-
ever they might be, as Mr. Bruce, who
: i nee
despatches,tese tra
n theysac-
lions had been continued as our Minister in China. If hon.
gentlemen would only read Mr. Bruce'
would see at once that he was never fit for his office, for he
probeeded to commence his negotiations under feelings of
most unfair suspicion and distrust. (Hear, hear.) Almost
every expression made use of by Mr. Bruce was one which
showed how much he was disposed to offend rather than to
conciliate those with whom he was about to negotiate.
Mr.'Bruce was not fit then, could he be fit now ? If this

man was so great that the Prime Minister over 300,000,000
of people was not a sufficient great man for :.Hm to meet

with, and if the Government were determined to entrust

him with the future negotiati9ns, he (Mr. Bright) should
not have the smallest expectation that anysuccessful result
would be come to, and he should think that the estimate
made by the hon. member for Portsmouth would fall very

short of the bill we should have to pay. (Hear.). But•the
noble lord the Foreign Secretary, doing tardily what we
ought to have done months ago, was proposing to send Lord
Elgin out again with the hope of terminating this unhappy

state of affairs. He (Mr. Bright) was not able to-say
whether Lord Elgin was the most suitable man to go out,
but if he could clear himself from any feeling of exaspera-
tion, then there'certainly was no reason why the noble earl
should not be as good a man as any other to send out. Pos-
sibly the failure of the rieble lord's brother might have this
beneficial effect on him—that he might feel anxious by his
own conciliatory conduct, and by a wish to close this dismal
chapter, to conduct the affair well, and retrieve the misfor-
tune of his relative. He thought the noble lord the Foreign
Secretary in,his instructions shouldnot insist on that point
of the treaty which required an English Minister to reside
at Pekin. (Hear, hear.) He could see no advantage to this
country or to its policy or trade in having such a, resident
Minister ; and if we were more powerful than the Chinese
—if we could send fleets and armies without stint, and
break up a great nation which was in existence centuries
before we were heard of, surely it was not natural that we
should heap the most supreme insult upon, the governor of
those 300,000,000 'of men. (Hear.) Let the noble,lord tell
the house what was the use of establishing Mr. Bruce, or
hs successor, at Pekin. If the noble lord could show that
tie good was something greatly overbalancing the evil, then
tie house would consider it. But it seemed to him, to use an
expression which had lately become common, " going to
war for an idea," and an idea about as stupid as a statesman
mild well entertain. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) The hon.
umber for Portsmouth had advised them not to be led into
schat he called this new crime. He (Mr. Bright), as the
Muse knew, was not always expressing his distriist of the
_Emperor of the French. (A laugh.) He believed he always
s?oke as respectfully of the French Emperor or the Aus-
trian Emperor as of any person he was acquainted with, but
tie present case might be one where the objects of another
Government were different from the objects of the. British
Government. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord at the head
cf the Government had told them there was no conven-
tion with regard to these transactions—no specific agree-
tient between the two countries. But he (Mr. Bright)
thought we might be allowing ourselves to be dragged into
a complication in China which might be of immeasurable
evil there, and might lead afterwards to serious complica-
tions and unpleasantness nearer home. The Chancellor of
the, Exchequer could not be very happy if he heard the
speech of the hon. member for Portsmouth (Sir J. Elphin-
stone) as to expenses. It appeared to him (Mr. Bright) the
country and 'Parliament had become absolutely drunk on
this question. (A laugh) Words of truth and soberness,
such as he had endeavoured to speak on the question,
,were
treated as if he were really talking about something con-
cerning the people in another planet, and that we had no-
thing whatever to do with the matter. Hon. gentlemen op-
posite might charge him with having some special affection
for hon. gentlemen on the Government side of the house.
He had certainly taken a great interest in everybody who
had been powerful on that bench since he had been Parlia •
ment, when he found they were pursuing a course which
appeased to be jn harmony with the true interests of the
country. But when they came to this China question he
confessed he thought the Government, although they re-
ceived it as a legacy from the last Government, were stand-
ing on ground so slippery, that be should not be the least
surprised if next seasion of Parliament, supposing they
lived so long as a Government—he certainly hoped they
would—(hear, hear)—but he should not be surprised if they
found themselves engulphed on this very China question
which had once before caused political changes in that house
When that discusion took place three years ago he was
spending the winter at Rome. and he recollected receiving
a letter from his hon. friend the member for Rochdale,
written immediately after the division on the China ques-
tion, in which he said, " Me. Gladstone's speech was a
marvel of persuasive eloquence." (Hear, hear.) That was
true, for he had heard it confirmed since by scores of per-
sons who listened to it. (Hear, hear.) But the sight hon.
gentleman on that occasion was speaking on behalf of the
great principles of justice. He was telling the house that
what the noble lord called English prestige was valueless
to a nation sinless it was based on that which was equi-
table in its policy to other nations. (Cheers.) He was
not blaming the Government for adopting a policy which
was inequitable. He was only warning them against two
things—against partnership with another Power in transac-
tions which they could not control, and against snaking
demands on the Government of China which were based on
disasters caused by the folly of your own Minister, and
which they tad no right, in the sight of God or man, to
make. (Hear, hear.) He believed that, on looking back
to the transactions with China for the past few years, there
was nothing more vile or vicious to be found in our history
—that there was no page in ouAinnals more full of real
humiliation, because it was full of guilt, than that on which
was recorded our transactions with China. (Hear, hear.)
It was because he felt this, and wished the Government to
live and prosper, and the house to stand'honourably before
the country, to hold a position high in morals and credit
before the world, that he warned the Government and the
house against proceeding in a policy which no man in his
conscience could say is not a policy in defiance of the law
of Heaven, and in oppcsitiou to those laws and principles of
justice without which human society itself could not be held
together. (Cheers.)
Mr. S. HERBERT said that the hon. member for
Portsmouth seemed to have misconceived some words which
had fallen from the noble lord, judging from the emphatic
manner in which he deprecated an advance upon Pekin.
The policy of the hon. br ronet seemed to consist in an
advance on Nankin, which he supposed to be either in the
h:ads of the rebels or left by them an utterly deserted
waste. The hon. baronet farther stated that they should
riot only advance upon Nankin, but permanently retain it,
after having first reduced the Taku forts. That part of
the advice of the hon. baronet the Government would not
be disposed to follow. It was the desire of the govern-
ment to localise the war as much as possible, amid to
confine it to the Chinese Government. The demands
which had been made even after the disaster of the
Peiho were of the most moderate kind, consisting of
a demand for the ratification of the treaty as
it originally stood, and an apology for the outrage coin-
' mitted. There was no demand for an indemnity. The hon.
baronet's warning against the advance on Pekin was hardly
needed, especially by two such armies as the French and
English, because the experience of the one in Cabul, and
of the other in the retreat from Moscow would make them
hesitate in advancing into a'country where the rivers were
frozen. 'With regard to the co die immigration, Mr. Aus-
tin, a very valuable officer, was engaged in putting some
restrictions upon that traffic, and he hoped that other Euro-
pean nations would accommodate themselves to the views
of the English Government on the subject. He now came
to the speech of the member for Birmingham. The hon.
gentleman said, and he said with truth, that this was a
question which need not be discussed with asperity on either
side of the house, because both Governments had been more
or less mixed up with the transactions which had occurred.
He need not enlarge upon the treaty of Tien-tsin. He had
his own opinion with regard to the transactions in China,
ant would candidly say that he believed they had got in
the wrong groove, and that they. would find it difficult to
get out of it. (Hear, and laughter.) It might be true that
the treaty of Tien-tsin imposed conditions unacceptable to
China, and that we got advantages which we should have
been better without, but that treaty having been accepted,
they were bound to see that it was carried out, and its pro-
visions respected. (Hear.) The Chinese plenipotentiaries
had beeir accused of treachery in their diplomatic negotia •
tions with the British Minister. In that respect ho believed
they were not far removed from the condition of diplomacy
which existed amongst the civilised nations of Europe at the
end of the last century and the beginning of the present.
(Cries of "Now, now," and laughter.) Whatever might
be thought of the policy in China for the last 20 years,
and however much they might desire to obtain their ob-
ject without bloodshed, he believed it would be vain to ex-
pect that they coUld accomplish their purpose without
the presence in China of a large naval and military force.
The hondurable gentleman spoke of the success of the
American Minister. He certainly profited by the presence
of the English fleet, and wisely confined his demand to the
most favoured nation clause. The presence of the English
fleet very much facilitated their obtaining that result. It
was very easy to be wise after the event, and to criticise

he conduct of men 'who were acting at a great distance,
and under very difficult circumstances. But supposing
that Admiral Hope had suc:Teded in his attack, they would
have nothing to say against Mr.,Bruce. He hoped, how-
ever, that when Lord Elgin. arrived in China matters
would be placed on a better footing ; but ho was sorry to
think that, to accomplish this purpose, he must be attended
by a large military demonstration. (Hear, hear.) The
Earl of Elgin had many qualities necessary for the mis-
sion. He had great local knowledge; and having natu-
rally the success of his own treaty at heart, he would be
desirous to convert that treaty into a durable and per-
manent peace. No one could read the blue-book without
seeing that his opinion was that England was asking too
much, and dealing too harshly with the Chinese. Through-
out his correspondence there was a spirit of wisdom and
conciliation which gave him (Mr. S. Herbert) the greatest
hope that bis administration would also be marked by those
qualities, and that he would place our relations with the
Chinese oa such a footing as to secure us the blessings of
commerce and peace. (Hear, hear.) He hoped the house
would go very shortly into committee, when he would explain
how matters stood with regard to this particular vote:
Sir J. PAKINGTON quite agreed that this discussion
should not be made a party affair. The late Government
appointed Mr. Bruce, and while he agreed with the right
hon. gentleman to that extent, he must add that the right
hon. gentleman had not removed frorn his mind a feeling of
disappointment with which he had heard the statement of
the noble lord that evening. The noble lord had hardly
acted up to his promise made the other evening that he
would, on the receipt of the despatches, make a full state-
ment to the house as to what was to be the policy of the
Government with regard to our affairs in China. The noble
lord had not indeemed that pledge, and while they had a
right to complain of the speech of the noble lord, he was sure
the Government had no cause to complain of having been
unduly pressed by the Opposition on this subject. On the
contrary, he tad been apprehensive that with the Budget,
the Reform sill, and our foreign policy, that attention
might not be raid to this matter which was due to its great
importance. ',Hear, hear.) It involved a question of the
utmost importance to us in relation to our trade, to our
Puture policy in China, and the general question as to
whether we ehould eater into a great and expentaiye war or

not. The reverse of the Peiho involved a degree of diffi-
culty which entitled the Government to the assistance of
hon. gentlemen on all sides of the house. After that
disaster it was right that the Government should see that
our power and prestige in the East were not diminished—
(Hear, hear.) He was not disposed, therefore, to find fault
with the Government for sending out an imposing force to
support their demand. Ho thought they had acted wisely
in doing so. (Hear.) The hon. gentleman the member for
Birmingham had alluded to a speech which he (Sir J. Pak-
ington) heard two years ago, but which the hon. gentleman
did not hear, from a cause which ho was happy to see now
existed no longer. He agreed with the opinion which the
hon. gentleman the member for Rochdale had expressed to
the hon. gentleman the member for Birmingham in. relas
tion to that speech, which was the finest and most impres-
sive he ever listened to in that house. He only hoped the
right hon. gentleman had not forgotten the sentiments he
then expressed. (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) The noble lord
the member for the City of London also addressed the house
on that occasion. The noble lord was not then sitting side
by side with the noble viscount (Lord Palmerston) as he
was now. (Laughter.) They stood in entirely different
relations to each other. (A laugh.) The house had not
forgotten the emphasis in which the noble lord—in a spirit
of justice and wisdom in which he (Sir John Pakington)
heartily concurred at the time—bade the house "Be just
and fear not I" (Hear.) In the present state of our rela-
tions with China, he earnestly hoped that the noble lord
would act on that principle. (Hear, hear.) As to the
apology which was to be insisted on for the Peiho transac-
tion, he put it to the house, whether, taking the origin of
the transaction, and the whole conduct of Mr. Bruce into
consideration, we were really entitled to demand an apology.
(Hear, hear.) If the apology were refused what was to be
the alternative ? The right hon. baronet then quoted from
Lord Malmesbury's instructions to Mr. Bruce, to show
that those who said Lord Malmesbury's instructions justi-
fied Mr. Bruce in ordering the attack, were mistaken. On
the charge of diplomatic duplicity, he quoted passages front
the despatch of the Chinese Commissioners, and asked
what more the Government could want of diplomatists.
Their language was clear, fair, and bona fide, and he could not
see that Mr. Bruce had any reason to doubt their sincerity.
Immediately after he gave directions to Admiral Hope to
force the passage of the Peiho. If he determined to force his
way by that route, contrary to the determination of the Chi-
rise authorities, be thought he was not justified by the law
of nations. It seemed that Mr. Bruce was impressed with a
different idea of making a way to the capital from that which
appeared justified by his instructions. He rather thought
it was the intention of the Chinese to pay all honour to or r
Minister, and it Was unfortunate•our Minister took a dif-
ferent view of the subject. It was unfortunate that our Mi-
nister ordered an attack. He thought the Chinese were
justified in fortifying their coast. They had indicated the
route our Minister was to take, and were we justified in de-
termining to take another route to the capital ? Well, then,
if the Chinese refused an apology, he thought it most un-
wise to make it a cause of war. At all events, he hoped that
no military operations would be ordered until the ambassa-
dors arrived on the spot. He took no exception to the mis-
sion of Lord Elgin; but was Mr. Bruce to continue in the
same diplomatic capacity ? He hoped he would receive,
some explanation of the policy of the Government.
Mr. HOPE thought it was no excuse for ill-considered
operations that the admiral showed personal gallantry. He
thought Admiral Hope had refused to obey the instructions
he had received, and he would submit his conduct io the
judgment of professional men. However, although the opi-
nion of that house generally was in favour of Admiral Hope,
ho would put it to every member whether he was not MO-
rally responsible for this unseen disaster. He protested
against the waste of gallant lives in that attack. He ob-
jected to wars when success brought no honour, and defeat
brought both disaster and dishonour.
Mr. C. BRUCE read the British Minister's opinion of
the admiral. He was a hero of the ,old school, and if he
had under-rated his opponents, he should like to know
who had not. That river was the ordinary route to
the capital, and they had no reason to suppose that any
such opposition would be offered. The French officers ac-
knowledged the gallantry of the admiral not in making the
attack—for attack he did not consider it—but in opening
the passage. He would take the libsty of referring to a sub.
ject which had already been referred to in that house. It
was stated that Mr. Bruce had received a message from the
Governor-General; but the fact was that the booms were
blown up on the previous night, and Mr. Bruce went, in ac-
cordance with his instructions, in a boat for the purpose of
communicating with the official parties, and his boat was
then fired upon. A member of the embassy, too, who was in
the Magiciap, and anxious to communicate with the parties
'inside the bar, made the attempt, but was unsuccessful, and
a most treacherous attack was made upon them. It was
easy for those to criticise who were not in the difficult posi-
tion-in which Mr. Bruce was ; but great injustice had cer-
tainly been done to that gentleman. (Hear, hear.) The
American Minister, however, and other official authorities
did him the justice that was due to him. (Hear, hear.) Mr.
Bruce's instructions were to go to Pekin, and there, and
not elsewhere, to have the treaty with which he was en-
trusted ratified, and it was in his efforts to carry out his
instructions that the deplorable calamity occurred. He (Mr.
C. Bruce) however, did not think that the violation of the
treaty of Tien-tsin was of itself sufficient cause to commit
this country in a war with China; and here he must say
that even success to the British arms, in such a war, would
be a great calamity to this country. (Hear, hear.) They
should not forget that China counted 300,000,000 inhabi-
tants, and that they would, if properly dealt with, become
large customers for the manufactures of this country. The
hon. number here quoted from a blue-book, narrating the
instructions given by the Earl of Derby when in office, and
by two other Governments, to Lord Elgin and Mr. Bruce;
and proceeded to argue that the latter gentleman had not
in any way departed from the letter of his instructions.
All the documents also went to prove that the whole of the
difficulties in the matter arose from there not having been
any direct way of communicating with the chief officers of
the empire. And here he might say that there were ample
proofs that the " people" of China themselves were not
averse to free and friendly intercourse with British subjects.
Even at the Peiho, they had come forward, and lay " pre-
softs" manifested their friendly feelings. The hon. mem-
ber concluded by saying he felt strongly on this subject;
and by hoping the house would render that fair award of
justice to Mr. Bruce that was due to him.
Lord PALMERSTON—Sir, I entirely agree with one of
the expressions whichfell from the hon. baronet on the other
side of the house, that when you judge the conduct of a man
you ought to place yourself—or rather to imagine yourself
—in the situation in which he was when he performed the
act upon which •you are passing judgMent. (Cheers.) I
think that is the way in which the conduct of Mr. Bruce
ought to be considered. What were his instructions ? His
instructions were to exchange the ratifications of the treaty
wf Tien-tsin. He was told what those ratifications were,
and that, in accordance with the terms of the treaty, they
were to be exchanged at Pekin. He was ordered, there-
fore, to go to Pekin, and to go by the Peiho. He was
told that at the mouth of the Peiho he was to go up the
river in a ship-of-war as far as Tien-tsin, and that the ad-
miral was to accompany him with a sufficient force. What
was the meaning of " a sufficient force ?" The only inter-
pretation which anybody in Mr. Bruce's position could put
upon the term " sufficient force" was a force sufficient to
enable him from the mouth of the Peiho to go up the river
in a ship of war to Tien-tsin, and from thence to proomed to
Pekin to exchange the ratifications. But then it was said
that there was a qualifying clause in his instructions, viz,,
that he was to pursue that course unless any unforeseen
circumstances arose to induce hiss to think any other
course'advisable. 'Well, then, sir, I say that Mr. Bruce
was perfectly justified in thinking that no other cir-
cumstances had arisen to induce, him to alter his course.
(Loud cheers.) The right hon. baronet had quoted a
letter from the Chinese Commissioners, in which it was ad-
mitted that they themselves proposed that our Minister
should proceed to the mouth of the Peiho for the purpose
of going thence up to Pekin to exchange the ratifications.
Well, then he comes to the Peiho, and what does he find
there ? Does he find there an official communication say-
ing "the Government will not allow you to go up this way;
you must go up some other way ; the passage here is ob-
jected to." Nothing of the kind; he finds, however, an
impediment. The hon. baronet has said that every nation
has a right to barricade itsrivers. But surely every nation
has not a right to barricade its rivers against its own friends,
if they wish to maintain peace, friendship, and commercial
relations with the nation so represented. Well, then cam*
the inquiry—What do these barricades mean ? The people
say—" It is a simple arrangement of self-defence, established
by the people of the district to protect them." Against
whom ? Against your English Minister ? No—against
pirates. Well, the British expedition were not pirates;
therefore there was no reason to suppose that the barricades
were placed there to intercept their progress. Was there
any Chinese officer present to say —" You cannot go up
this way : you must go up another way ?" Not a bit.
There was nothing but militiamen and peasantry; at least
there was no other authorised obstacle. Well, then, under
these circumstances, it really appears to me that Mr. Bruce
and Admiral Hope were perfectly justified in taking steps to
remove obstacles which did not carry in themselves any
semblance whatever of official resistance against that which
they were authorised and entitled by the Chinese commis-
sioners to do. Well, did they begin the attack ? No ; in •
stead of their removing the barrier, it was the Chinese who
began the attack. Well, was the Peiho the wrong way ?
The Pei-ho was admitted by the Chinese to be the way to
Pekin. In the treaty which they had completed with
Russia six weeks before this transaction there is literally
a stipulation that the Russian Minister when he goes to
Pekin shall go-by the Pei-ho. That is an admission by
the Chinese Government that by the Pei-ho was the
ptoper way for an ambassador to go. Moreover, by oar
treaty of Nankin we are entitled to the privileges of
the most favoured.nation, and therefore we were by treaty
entitled to go by the Pei-ho—by the passage that was shut
against our Minister. Therefore, I say, if any man will
place him self in the situation of Mr. Bruce, knowing what
was the usual practice, and with the responsibility upon him
of excliangiligaliesratifications within the limited time,; I

really cannot imagine any -man placed in the situation

shrinking from the difficulty which he found in his course,
and going away and leaving the treaty unratified, for any
chance that might 4appeu, aftervf arde of ite ever bein rati-

tied.at all. I think if Mr. Bruce had taken such a course
there would have been just reason for blaming him for not
having performed his duty. (Hear.) It might have been
said to him, " You were told to go up the Pei-ho in a ship
of war. You were told to go with the admiral with a suffi-
cient force. There was a sufficient force. Why did you
run away and set the honour of the country at nought ?
Why did you go away when, according to all previous ex-
perience, you had a sufficient force ?" But the right hon.
baronet says that on the morning of the day on which the
attack took place, at nine o'clock, Mr. Bruce received a let-
ter from the Chinese authorities inviting him to take an-
other course. The right hon. baronet read the letter very
glibly; and if Mr. Bruce had received the letter as it is
in the blue book he would have read it very glibly too ;
but unfortunately the letter was in Chinese, and it took a
considerable; time to , translate it. lam afraid it was
not less than two hours before the letter could be
understood, and then he had to consult with M. Bour-
dillon, the French Minister. And some time was lost in
procuring a boat, nearly all the boats having been sent
below the bar, so that it was a long time before he could
reach M. Bourdillon. Bysthat time the firiag had begun,
and therefore it was too late to make any change in the
operations. But supposing that the letter had come to him
in time, would it have been wise to have gone round by the
land route ? We know what would have happened, because
the American Minister did go round that way and we know
that he was detained some time before he was allowed to
land, and then he was transported up the country in a
wooden box with two wheels with no light or air in it, and
at last, when he got to the last stage, he was obliged to get
out and walk because it was impossible for him to endure
the torture of riding in that box any longer. And when he
got to Pekin he was kept a close prisoner and was not al
,lowed even to visit the, Russian Minister, and he was not
allowed to exchange the ratifications, but was sent back.
Now, would this country'have been satisfied if they found
that their Minister had been sent to Pekin with a sufficient
fel-Cc, :and that by his instructions he was not to submit, on
his passage to Pekin, to any ceremony that was in the least
degrading,'" for remember," said Lord Malmeshury, "what
is done on your arrival in Pekin will be made a precedent
for all future occaeions—remember the honour of the mis-
sion and the dignity of the country,"—l ask, would this
country have been satisfied if they had been told, that our
Minister had been detained some days before he was allowed
to land—that he was then put in a covered cart, and so
jolted that. he was compelled to walk a considerable part of
the distance ? We know that in China there ere three
modes of honour,,or of degradation, I may say. Those who
ere treated with honour are carried in palanquinsand sedan
chairs ;'those who are the next in rank are allowed to ride ;
and, if any, none but those who aro of the lowest' class are
put in these covered boxes. (Hear, hear.) I say, then,
that even if Mr. Bruce had received the letter in time, it
would-net have been prudent to have acted upon it. Cer-
tainly, if I had been in his situation, nothing should have
induced me to consider that it would justify me in under-
going so much personal degradation and so much personal
inconvenience. (Laughter.) I think it very unfair for
Mr. Bruce to have cast upon him the censure to which
some aro disposed to subject him. I accept the princi-
ple laid down by the right hon. baronet. I ask every
one to consider himself placed in the same position, and to
say what he would himself have done, as a man of
honour, charged with a public responsibility? (Hear, hear.)
The conduct of the gallant admiral has been sufficiently
defended by those who are better able to judge of such
matters than I am myself, and I thereforo pass that
by. Everybody, I think, will admit that there never was
a greater display of heroism, and that not by the admiral
only, but by every one that was concerned in these transac-
tions. (Loud cheers.) The circumstance that success did
not attend the efforts of our force detracts in no degree what-
ever from the bravery or the distinction of the services
which they rendered. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. gen-
tleman wants to know what is our policy with regard to
China. That is a question undoubtedly which he is en-
titled to ask, and I think my noble friend has sufficiently
explained what our policy is ; but • when the right hon.
baronet asks what are our instructions with regard to the
operations that are to ba-performed, that is a questionwhich
I must beg leave to decline answering, because the house
must see that to tell beforehand what are the instructions
which have been laid down in order to guide the proceedings
of our naval and military commanders, or our diplomatic
agents, under circumstances that may not arise, might
defeat the purpose fer which those instructions are given.
(Hear, hear.) Our policy is simple, and I think it is just
and correct.
,A treaty has been concluded with China, and
that treaty has been approved by the Emperor—because, in
the blue book you will see that he conveys to his negotia-
tors his entire approval of the treaty, and orders it to be
carried into effect. Well, we want the ratifications of that
treaty to be exchanged--we want that treaty to become a
formally acknowledged contract between the two nations.
(Hear, hear.) Some persons think that the treaty contains
some concessions that it was not—l will not say justifiable—
but, that it was not handsome in us to 'ask for. I ammot of
that opinion. The chief variation between that treaty and
the treaty of Nankin is, in the first place, that we obtained
by it a right to have a resident at Pekin, and at all times to
have a direct communicationwith thecentral Government—
a right, the almost necessary consequence of the want of
which has been to cause the differences and the unpleasant
events which have taken placebetween the two Governments.
(Hear.) We have hitherto only had communication with
the Viceroy at Canton—an official whose great duty was
to put us off with excuses, and sometimes not even to
send to Pekin the representations that were made—to keep,
in short, the " barbarians" off as far and as long as he
could, till the result has been that accumulation of com-
plaints and grievances which has led to such important
and such disagreeable consequences. (Hear, hear.) But
there is nothing in that concession which could be offensive
to the Chinese; because Russia has for some time had a
diplomatic agent residing at Pekin, and we therefore ask
nothing for ourselves that the Emperor has not already
conceded to Russia. We have as much commercial inter-
course with China as Russia has, and I should think more.
We have certainly more subjects resident in China; and
there are more occasions when it might be essential to our
interests that we should have the power of communicating
directly with the Government of Pekin. (Hear.) It may
be a matter of discretion whether we shall so far exercise
that right as to have always a permanent resident at Pekin.
There are many reasons why, during a portion of the 'year
at all events, it may not be right to place any one in the
position of having to live in that city; but the right of
going to Pekin whenever we please, and of communicating
directly with the central Government are really essential
if we want to have our subjects and their property secure
in their commercial relations with China. (Hear.) Then we
obtain a right to navigate the great river Yang-tze-kiang,
and some others that are named. At present, seeing that
the rebellion has depopulated the towns on the banks of
those rivers, that concession may not be of much moment.
It has been recommended that we should take Nankin. If
we did, I do not think that we should find good accommo-
dation for our troops and officers; but the right of going
up the Yang-tze-kiang and the other rivers, and of trading
with the population on their banks, is one that may here-
after be of great importance to us in the prosecution of our
commercial relations with China. (Hear, hear.) Then
there is a third concession, namely, that our subjects
should have the right to travel in the interior with pass-
Ports. (Hear, hear.) That is a matter of great importance;
and the concession is one that would /sot be repugnant
to the feelings or habits of the Chinese. People are apt to
imagine that what took place at Canton is a sample of that
which would take place elsewhere, but that is a great mis-
take. The bad feeling excited against us at Canton was, I
believe, quite artificial ; for at Shanghai there is a large
European population, who live in perfect amity 'with the
natives. Whey visit and associate with each other, and our
residents go into the interior to a certain distance without
molestation, and on perfectly good terms with the inhabi-
tants. (Hear, hear.) Then our policy is to obtain the ra-
tification and the execution of the treaty of Tien-tsin. Our
policy is to obtain for our subjects in China freedom for
theinpersons and security for their commerce and their pro-
perty. (Hear.) Conquest does not enter into our views, it
forms no portion of our policy to conquer any part of China
Or to obtain possession of any part of it, except the island
of Hong Kong, which we already hold ; but we do think,
and I am persuaded the country has the same opinion, that
it would have been disgraceful to us, and that we could not
have expected to retain our position in the East, if, after
the disaster on the Peiho, we had simply gone away and
taken no further notice of it. (Hear, heir.) It is said you
are pressing too much on the Chinese by demanding an
apology. Well, sir, if we are to have any redress at all, I
think an apology is the very least demand which either a
nation or an individual can ask for an outrage such as that
committed on the Peiho river. (Hear, hear.) There is no
reason whatever for supposing that the Emperor of China
is at all disinclined to give that apology, for he character-
ised the outrage in question as an isolated faci arising from
the impetuosity of the British commander—that ft was not
to interrupt in any degree the friendly intercourse bets den
the two nations, and moreover that there was now actually
open to British commerce one of the ports which by
the treaty was to be added. Therefore, sir, I say
there is no proof that the Emperor of China is in a
temper of mind to refuse an apology. (Cheers.) When
I am asked 'what is to be our policy in China
I answer that our policy is to require the fulfil-

ment of the treaty—a treaty of commercial intercourse with
China, but not to involve the two nations in war, if war
should not be necessary. We do not demand any additional

cession of territory. To those gentlemen who seem to un-

dervalue the importance of a commercial treaty with China,
I say carry back your recollection to the feeling which
_ .

existed in this country when the treaty of Nankin was con-
cluded by Sir H. Pottinger, and the enthusiastic applause
with which the announcement 'of that treaty was received.

Why, sir,,the whole country admitted that the treaty was of
the utmost advantage to the commerce of this country. The
greatest advantages were anticipated from the increased
commercial intercourse. with China, and there can be no

doubt that by that treaty our commercial intercourse with
China was greatly increased. Nor did we unreasonably
anticipate the t_robability of events in believing that the
treaty of Tien-tsin, coupled with that of Nankin, if faith-

fully executed and carried out, would add vastly to the com-
mercial intercourse, not only of England (for we seek no
Qiclu,sive advaAtages), but of the ether States Ltixope and