The Sun.
London, England, 1860-03-13 00:00:00

have to consider is whether the Administration of this cowl.
try has in this crisis been placed in the hands of statesmen
equal to their position. The statement of the noble lord
the Foreign Secretary gives me great alarm, because he says
there is one party who think that if Sardinia is willing to do
so, and no difficulty is raised abroad, Savoy ought to be
given up.
Lord J. RUSSELL—No ; I said that if there were a party
who thought we ought to go to war even if Sardinia'were
prepared to give up Savoy, they should come forward with
a motion to that effect.
Mr. HORSMAN—That I heard distinctly; but I also
under stood the noble lord to say there was ;one party who
thought if it was matt-r of arrangement abroad, and Sar-
dinia was ready to give it up, Savoy might then be given
up; but that there was another party who would have us go
to war. I understand the noble lord to classify us all with
ono or other of those two parties. In that case I would ask,
to which of those parties do her Majesty's Ministers belong ?
(Hear, hear.) The whole question is this :—What is the
policy that leads to war ? Is it a policy of firmness ? Be-
cause I cannot but recollect an occasion when divided coun-
s As, leading to compromises and tending to weakness, did
not drift us into a most disastrous war—(hear, hear)—and I
know there are people who think that more sagacity and
firmness might have obviated that war. lam afraid there
may be something of the same kind going on at the present
moment. lam not sure that the 'counsels of the Cabinet.
are all at one ; and I must say tho- tone of both the noble
lords to-night fills me with a good deal of apprehension
(Hear, hoar.) The hon. member for Bridgewater has up to
this point kept himself entirely right. He has evinced on
this question great earnestness, but also great moderation.
(Hear.) But he has a responsible duty to discharge. It is
for him to consider, after the answer he has received to-
night, what course he shall pursue. The matter is one on
which he must be a good deal guided by the judgment of
the house, but he must not be deterred by the fear of being
left in a minority. (Laughter.) This is a question on which
he may feel that the opinions of the nation would not be re-
presented in this house—(cheers and counter cheers)—and it
is to the opinions of the nation he mustlook in the course that
he may take. He has told us more than once that time is
pressing—that events aro marching to their accomplish..
ment. The information received to-day confirms that im-
pression ; and I hope, therefore, that he will choose his op-
portunity and invite the judgment of this house—whose
opinion, more than that of any other body in this country,
or abroad, is urgently demanded—to determine whether or
not, by a firm and vigorous display of what are the real
sentiments of England, we may not do more to preserve the
peace of Europe and our own honour than by a policy of
timidity or vacillation. (Hear, hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—I do not
think my right hon. friend has a right to say that her Ma-
jesty's Government have been chary in the information they
have afforded to the house in regard to their foreign policy.
I confess that on almost all subjects of foreign policy it ap-
peats to me the house has already been put in possession of
information as rapidly following its receipt by the Govern-
ment themselves as the time requisite for the production of
the papers would permit. (Hear, hear.) With respect to the
apprehension expressed by my right hon. friend lest there
should be divided counsels in the Government, I, of course,
entirely ascribe his fears on that head to the friendly interest
he takes in our perfect harmony. (Laughter.) The best
opportunity, however for trying that question will be when
we come to the full discussion of the conduct of Govern-
ment, when it will sufficiently appear whether we have been
united in our views or not. It is very desirable that we
should clearly understand the position of the Government
with regard to the intended motion of the hon. member for
Bridgewater. My noble friend has given his opinion, not
of the inexpediency of all discussions relating to Savoy, but
only of the inexpediency of discussions that are :indecisive
in their character, and which, referring to the conduct of
the French Government, tend rather to irritation than to
any practical or substantive result. (Hear, hear.). The
motive of my noble friend at the head of the Government
in dividing the question into two parts was, I think,
to draw that distinction, and to lay down on the
one hand, that we could not be parties espe-
cially by giving a Government day for the purpose, particu-
larly while we have other very pressing subjects calling for
Our attention—to prolonging and renewing that class of dis-
cussions relating to Savoy to which I have adverted. But,
on the other hand, ho stated that if there be any disposition
to censure her Majesty's Government, there can be no doubt
it is quite competent and quite just that any hon. member
of this house should take an opportunity of proposing* 'no-
tion to that effect. (Hear.) And the spirit of that observa-
tion was obviously this—that if there be any disposition for
discuss in any form, whether by asking for explanations or
by proposing a censure, the proceedings of the Government
to no discussion of that nature, or aimed at that object, will
her Majesty's Government make any objection whatever.
(Hear, hear.) As my noble friend the Secretary of State for
Foreign Affairs is precluded by the forms of the housefrorn
again addressing it, he authorises me to say that as he un-
derstands there is a desire, without moving a vote of cen-
sure, to call for more detailed explanations from the Go-
vernment, he will take theearliest opportunity, in producing
papers to-morrow relating to Italy, to make a statement
with regard to the course that has been pursued. (Hear.)
Mr. S. FITZGERALD—I must say that the observa-
tions made by the noble lord only tend to divert the atten-
tion of the house from the 'real and very serious subject
before us. because the noble lord addresses himself to this

sit on this side of the house to cast a censure on the conduct
of the Government. The real point of the case is this—that
at the present moment we do not actually know what the
conduct of the Government has been—(hear, hear)—and I
beg to point out to the house that only four or Live days
have elapsed since the noble lord the Secretary of State ex-
pressed his belief that it was of the utmost importance
there should be a discussion on this subject. And not only
so, but he spoke as if a discussion in this house was not suf-
ficient, for he said he hoped the opinion of Parliament
would be expressed on this question. (Hear, hear.) Surely
it is of vast importance that upon a subject like this
there should be a full expression of the opinion of the House
of Commons ? What has been the language of the noble
lord himself with respect to this question of the annexation
of Savoy ? He has told us that it will spread distrust and
suspicion throughout Europe, and has reminded the French
Government that it probably, or possibly, implies on the
part of the Emperor of France the adoption of a policy
which has already been most fatal to the fortunes of his
family. If this is so, surely it is of the greatest importance
that we should now be able to strengthen the hands of the
Government in what I believe to be the course which they
are disposed to adopt—viz., that of expressing their strong
and emphatic disapproval of the course which has been
adopted by France. (Hear.) In another place it has been
slated that communications of a certain kind have passed
between the noble lord and the Governments of Russia,
Prussia, and Austria. Surely it is of great importance that
we should know what those communications have been ; and
whatever may be the conduct of those Governments, of
this I feel certain, that the position of the noble lord with
respect to them will be greatly strengthened if it is known
that there has been a decided expression of opinion on the
part of this house. (Hear.) It is not at present desired to
pass any vote of censure upon the Government, but we de-
sire to be so fully acquainted with all the circumstances and
with the policy of the Government, that if need be we can
give them the full support of a vote of this house. (Hear.)

THE CHINA WAR.
Mr. B. COCHRANE said that as it was understood that
Lord Elgin had been appointed ambassador extraordinary
to Chilli, and was to embark for that country within a few
days, it was right that the discussion of the affairs of China,
which was arrested by the noble lord the Secretary of State
for Foreign Affairs, should be resumed and concluded be-
fore the noble earl left this country. He therefore hoped
that the noble lord would fix a day for the debate prior to
the departure of the ambassador.
Sir G. GREY said that it was the intention of his noble
friend to make a statement with regard to China on Friday
next. Although Lord Elgin was going to Paris for a few
days, it would be some time before he would start for China.
The motion for the adjournment of the house was then
put, and negatived.
THE NEW SYSTEM OF PURCHASE IN THE
ARMY.
Col. SMY TH asked the right hon. gentleman the Secre-
tary of State for War when he proposed to introduce or lay
upon the table his proposal for alteration in the present sys-
tem of army purchase ?
Mr. S. HERBERT said that he could not lay upon the
table a proposal for altering the regulations of the army.
When the regulations were amended they might be mo'red
for, and presented to the house in their new form.

• -
PUBLIC BUSINESS.
In reply to questions from Sir S. NORTACOTE and Mr.
K. SEYMER,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
he should not proceed, in committee of Customs, with the
resolutions touching the drawback on wine or the imposi-
tion of minor taxes until Thursday or Friday at the soonest.
He could not at present fix a day for the discussion of the
wine licences with a view to a decision, because be thought,
if it were necessary to take a preliminary resolution, it
would bo better to take it in a very gaieral form, and to al-
low the discussion to come on upon the bill founded upon it,
which would include the police regulations and other mat-
ters, which, though necessary to the understanding of the
subject, could hardly be expressed in a resolution. That bill
was already prepared, and he hoped to lay it upon the table
to-morrow (Tpesday).
irfLITARY ORGANISATION.
Col. HERBERT asked the tight hon. gentleman the
Secretary of State for War when he intended to move the
reappointment of the Committee on Military Organisation ?
Mr. S. HERBERT was understood to reply that he had
not yet communicated with the members of the committee,
but he would give notice when he intended to move its re-
appointment.
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of altering the rystem of purchase now exisdsnugiit.n the army
without asking the opinion of that house
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Mr. S. HERBERT said that the army was governed
not by the votes of the House of Commons, but by the
Queen's regulations—(hear, hear)—and he should not be
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