The Sun.
London, England, 1860-07-04 00:00:00

PRIVATE BUSINESS.

The Ness and Beauley Fisheries; London and North-
Western Railway (No. 2) ; Burnham Tidal Harbour and
Railway; Sudbury, Melford, and Clare Railway; London,
Chatham, and Dover Railway ; Caithness Road, Egham,
and Egham, Manchester, and Milford, Mid-Sussex, and
Midhurst Junction Railway; Deviation Petersfield Rail-
way ; West Cork Railway; Epsom and Leatherhead Rail-
way, and Hayling's Railway bills were read a second time.
The Epping Railways (Dunmow Extension), and the
Mersey Docks and Harbour Board Bills were read a third
time and passed.
LORD DE FREYNE'S ESTATE BILL.

The standing orderswere dispensed with in orderthat this
bill might be proceeded with.
WEIGHTS AND MEASURES BILL.

The re-committal of this bill was moved by Lord TEYN-
H AM.

Lord CHELMSFORD said he would oppose the mo-
tion for going into committee on this bill, as it was unjust
that publicans should be forced to use any particular ma-
chines. He concluded by moving that the bill be re-com-
mitted that day three months.
Lord TEYNHAM supported the bill. He thought it
was the duty of Parliament to see that justice was done to
the public.
The LORD CHANCELLOR disapproved of the bill.
The amendment war carried, and the bill postponed.
REPLY TO ADDRESS.

The Lord Steward of Her Majesty's Household brought
up her Majesty's most gracious reply to the addresses of
their lordships on the Berwick Election Commission and
the Mozambique questions.
The answers were ordered to be entered in the journals.
MASTERS AND OPERATIVES BILL.

Lord ST. LEONARDS, after presenting a petition nu-
merously signed in favour of this bill, moved the second
reading, and stated that the great object of the measure
was to create courts of conciliation with a view to prevent
or put a stop to strikes. The noble lord was so indistinctly
heard in the gallery that only a few disjointed sentences
were heard. He was understood to say that the provisions
of the bill would not directly prevent such a strike as that
which recently occurred in the building trades of London,
for it would be hardly possible for any council of concilia-
tion to settle such a dispute as that, but the object of the
measure was to bring together masters and operatives, and
if that could be accomplished it was hoped and believed
that a good feeling would ensue between them, and that
those strikes which had lately happened, and which they so
frequently witnessed, would net take place. When their
lordships contemplated the great misery which resulted to
the workpeople themselves, and the loss which was occa-
sioned, by those strikes, they might well try to find out
some remedy. These strikes had already caused a loss to
the country of several millions of money, and the suffering
and misery brought upon the families of the operatives
were much greater than it was possible to conceive. Let
them consider the matter in another light. The masters and
operatives might be said to be partners in the same concern,
but the latter were partners without any liability. They
took their share of the profits in the shape of wages, and
they incur red no risk as to loss. The wages were a part of
the profits made by the fair use of capital, and if a strike
took place, the capital of the concern was in danger of
being lost to the employers. It would be impossible to
pass a law which should, so to speak, settle a strike,
because the operatives, if they did not conspire, might
combine together to better their position; but there
being at present no court to which masters and opera-
tives could appeal to settle their disputes, no opportu-
nity could be given to prevent strikes taking place, and
therefore he would repeat that the provisions of this bill
were framed in the hope that the masters and operatives
would be brought more frequently together, and be made
more acquainted with each other's wants. (Hear.) The
noble and learned lord then gave a short description of the
machinery of the law existing in France, and was under-
stood to say that it worked well. The council was elected
by vote, and no man had a right to elect who was not 25
years of age, he must also have worked at his trade for not
less than five years, and have resided in the district for a
specified term ; and, further, the persons to be elected must
be of the age of 30 years, and able to read and write ; and
the Emperor had reserved to himself the right of appoint-
ing the president and vice-president of the council, which
when organised remained in office for the space of three
years. Every dispute must be brought before the council.
The operation of the law had had a wonderful effect in
France, and had produced much good feeling among all
parties. (Hear, hear.) A committee was appointed to in-
quire into the subject in 1321. They sat 36 days, and exa-
mined 122 witnesses, awl they recommended that courts of
arbitration should be established extending to all trades.
In pursuance of these recommendations, Parliament subse-
quently passed the .sth of George IV., cap. 96, which was
at present the existing law of the country, and by which
power was given to the magistrates to consider and decide
disputes between masters and workmen. The act of Parlia-
ment, as it now stood, gave both to masters and operatives
the option of going before a magistrate, and asking him to
decide their disputes for them, and it also gave the option
of choosing any other forna of arbitration they might think
proper. If a decision were once arrived at all the powers
of the act could be enforced to give effect to it. Thus their j
lordships would see that as the law now stood they had it I
in their power, by their own free will and without the
slightest coercion, to resort to arbitration. [A NOBLB
LORD—Then what is the use of this bill 11--His noble
friend asked what was the use of this bill ? and the answer
was, that the present measure had been introduced, be-
cause the act of George IV. had become a dead letter.
It provided only.for a single dispute, and not for disputes
as a whole, so that in every difference that arose between
masters and workmen it was necessary to appoint a new
arbitration. What both the masters and the workmen de-
sired was that there should be some properly constituted
court of arbitration to which they could have recourse in
the event of any dispute arising, and the present bill car-
ried out that object. One great objection to the act of Geo.
IV. was that it expressly prohibited any interference with
wages except with the consent of h.th parties, and that it
only applied to contracts pending or completed, without at-
tempting to affect future contracts. The act passed as an
adjunct to the Combination. Act, but it had fallen into dis-
use, and was at this moment positively and absolutely a
dead letter. What was more extraordinary was, that those
persons who had taken the most active part in strikes wore
themselves wholly unacquainted with its existence, and with
the nature of its enactment. In 18.58 a committee was ap-
pointed by the House of Commons to inquire into the sub-
ject, and they imported,
from the evidence laid before them,
they had arrived
at the conclusion that the establishment of
courts of conciliar
cial, raanufactoriu g' more °I;
particularly in large commer-
beneficial. They f and mining districts, would be most
iliereaded that an amendment
of the present act, by w
enabled to appoint arbitraeatotahlia
re
masters and operatives were
court of arbitration were was necessary, that if the
, the members should
be chosen in equal numbers by the
that the tribunals themselves should sit
f° ies interested, and
In addition the committee recommended r a Certain period.
that authority
should be given to the Secretary of Smtaatdeefotor the Rome De-
to license
partment, upon an application being
boards of this description, and that immediatelal'
beer
li-
cense being granted, the board should be yestec); ur"ip
a ht
to decide all questions relating to contracts which power
brought before them, On making these recomemdi
the committee expressed the opinion that them crenatiaotnionosf
such courts was calculated to promote a more friendly
understanding between the employers and employee. A
third committee had sat upon the subject in the 1:10u„ of
Commons during the preeent AegAioD) and they arrived at a
03144 f okAtittU4lol4 t 4 410 bi kr Igo! wa doll and muds),

dc; oci

ing fourteen witnesses. They reported that in their opinion
the establishment of courts of conciliation, more especially
in manufacturing and mining districts, would be beneficial,
and that they would tend to prevent strikes and promote a
friendly understanding between the employees and em..
ployed. The committee further expressed their concurrence
in the present bill, which was submitted t) tkem by the
House of Commons, and recommended that it should re-
ceive the legislative sanction of Parliament. In introducing
the bill in their lordships' house, he had been solely ani-
mated by a desire to promote an amicable feeling between
masters and operatives, and to prevent the recurrence of
those strikes which entailed such lamentable consequences.
By this bill the court of conciliation could be established
without a license from the crown. The council was to con-
sist of not less than two masters and two workmen, or more
than ten masters and ten workmen, and a chairman. The
powers of the council were those set forth in the sth of
George IV., cap. 96. The council could not entertain any
case unless both master and workman expressed their wil-
lingness to submit to its arbitration. The petitioners for
the license were authorised to proceed to the appointment
of a council of conciliation and arbitration from among
themselves within 30 days of such grant of license. Each
person, being 21 years of age, belonging to the trade, hav-
ing a license for a council, and being an inhabitant house-
holder, or part occupier of any house, warehouse, counting-
house, or other property, might demand to be registered,
and had a vote for the council, and might be elected there-
to. The noble and learned lord concluded by moving the
second reading of the bill.

Lord BAVENS WORTH moved as an amendment that
the bill be read a: second time that day six months. He
founded his objection to the measure on its interfering with
the existing relations between masters and workmen, and
because it proposed to supersede the law now in force. The
act of 5 Geo. IV. had been by no means so inoperative as
the noble and learned lord represented. The bill came up
to their lordships' house from the House of Commons re-
commended by a strong expression of public feeling. He
regarded with suspicion the report of the committee of the
House of Commons on which this bill was based, and he
contended that the subject was one which required a great
deal more consideration before their lordships attempted to
sanction anything like the novel system of legislation
which they were now asked to approve. What was wanted
was a fair and impartial tribunal, and the present bill would
not give that. The proposed constitution of councils of
conciliation was most defective, and, in his opinion, was
open to grave objections. Being composed of antagonistic
elements, their lordships might rely upon it that those
would not work well. Besides the appointment of a chair-
man of those councils would be a matter of great difficulty;
and instead of those councils being councils of conciliation,
he believed they would be count Is of wrangle. He believed
that the magistrates in petty sessions were a better court of
appeal, and would give more satisfaction in deciding mat-
ters of dispute between masters and men, than courts of
conciliation to be chosen in the manner which this bill pro-
posed. But there was a still graver objection to the bill ;
and it was this, that it would be necessary to have separate
courts for almost every class of trade, as it was not pos-
sible that one class of artisans could adjudicate properly
and with satisfaction for men who belonged to a totally
different trade. By passing this bill they would constitute
a number of small parliaments elected by universal suffrage.
Ellen the bill made no provision for the expenses of carry-1
ing out the act, and the elections which were to take
place under it. The magistrates would object to the ex-
pense being thrown on the county rate, and he believed
the Chancellor of the Exchequer would equally object to
their being borne by the Consolidated Fund. That some
improvement might be made in the existing law he did not
deny, but the effects of the existing law, great or small,
whichever they were, would not be remedied but aggravated
under the machinery provided by this bill. He therefore
moved that it be read a second time that day three months.
The Earl of DERBY said his noble friend had stated
various objections to the machinery and provisions of this
bill, but at the same time he stated that the existing law
was disposed to give a favourable consideration to any mea-
sure that professed to obviate the mischievous consequences
which arose out of disputes between masters and men. The
present bill was recommended as to its principle by the high
authority of his noble and learned friend, and the unanimous
opinion of a select committee of the House of Commons.
At the same time his noble and learned friend himself
pointed out several provisions of the bill which would re-
' quire to be amended in committee, and his noble friend who
moved the amendment showed that the measure was liable
to many serious objections. He should therefore, not wish-
ing summarily to reject a bill of this kind, vote for the
second reading ; but unless it were altered in committee, so
as to meet the objections to which it was liable in its pre-
sent shape, he should be sorry to see it read a third time.
Earl GRANVILLE complained of the loose phraseology
of the bill, and it was quite obvious that it could not pass
as it was drawn. He agreed with the noble earl, however,
that as this was a measure in which the working classes
took a great interest, it ought not to be dealt with in a sum-
mary way by rejecting the second reading. He should
therefore suggest to the noble lord (Ravensworth) that he
should withdraw his amendment, and move, instead, that
it be referred to a select committee.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said if this bill became law
he should rejoice indeed that he was no longer Chief Justice
of the Court of Queen's Bench, for the greater part of its
time would be taken up with motions for writs of manda-
mus, prohibitions, and certioraris arising out of this mea-
sure. (Hear.) The bill would not work at all. It would
produce "confusion worse confounded." He agreed with
his noble and learned friend in all he said about the strike,
and in his views of political economy, but he entirely dif-
fered from him in what he said regarding this bill, which
could only lead to mischievous results.
Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY said that he should not
object to the bill being referred to a select committee if the
noble and learned lord really thought that the bill would
come out of that committee an efficient bill. But if such a
course only held out to the working classes expectations
that could not be realised, he put it to their lordships
whether it would not be more honest as well as better to
reject the bill at once. (Hear.)
Lord RAVENSWORTH said he should withdraw his
amendment, and move that the bill be referred to a select
committee.

After a few words from Lord ST. LEONARDS the bill wai
read a second time, and ordered to be referred to a seleci
committee.

NEW ZEALAND BILL.

The Mike of NEWCASTLE, in moving the second read-
ing of this bill, said it did not arise out of the disturbances
which took place in the colony of New Zealand, although
he believed the passing of the measure would tend to put
an end to those disputes, which were so much to be re-
gretted. The southern part of the island was practically
in possession of the English settlers, and the number of
acres which they held was 7,000,000. The natives pos-
sessed 26,000,000 acres, a great part of which was utterly
valueless and unavailable in their hands. Now the
settlers on the one hand felt straitened for the want of
more land, and the natives on the other hand were jealous
of their independence, and were afraid that they were to be
absorbed. He believed that the claims of both parties
might bo reconciled by the establishment of an independent
council, to be composed of not less than three or more than
seven members, for the transference of these lands which
the natives were willing to dispose of. By the Constitu-
tion Act, which passed seven or eight years ago, the na-
tives could only deal with the Crown in this matter, and
up to the present time there existed no machinery by which
the lands could be transferred. The object of the present
bill was to provide such machinery, and he believed it
would give satisfaction to all parties.
Lord LYTTELTON believed that the object of the bill
was a good one, but he still looked upon it with apprehen-
sion, as he thought the General Assembly of New Zealand
would be apt to look with jealousy on the new council. He
thought the feeling of the General Assembly ought to be
consulted on the measure.

The Duke of NEWCASTLE said the bill had been in-
troduced with the concurrence of the colonial governor. and
ho had every reason to believe that it would not be distaste-
ful to the colonists.
The bill way then read a second time.

The Endowed Charities Bill passed through committee.
The-Mocal Boards of Health, &c., Bill passed through
committee with amendments, and was ordered to be re-
ported on Friday.
The Inland Bonding Bill and the Criminal Lunatic
Asylum Bill, after some discussion, in which Lord DEN-
MAN and Lord WODEMOUSE took part, also passed through
committee with amendments, and was ordered to be re-
ported on Friday.
The Spirits (Ireland) Act Amendment Bill was read a
third time nnd-paseed.
Several bills from the Commons wero read a first time,
and their lordships adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.-(YRSTERDAY.)

The SPEAKER took the chair at a quarter past 12 o'clock,

CENSUS BILL.

Several petitions were presented praying for the omis-
sion from the bill of the clause relating to the profession
of religious belief.
MINES REGULATION AND INSPECTION BILL.
The house went into committee on this bill, and resumed
at clause 10.

Mr. AYRTON moved the following amendment to in-
sert after rule 15:—Rule 16. Where the persons em-
ployed in any coal mine, colliery, or iron-stone are paid by
the weight, measure, or gauge of the coal, ironstone, or
other material gotten by; them, such coal, ironstone, or
other material shall be truly weighed, measured, or gauged
accordingly ; and it shall be lawful for such persons, at
their own cost, to station a person 'at the place appointed
for such weighing, measuring, or gauging, in order to take
an account thereof, and to ascertain the correctness of the
weight, measure, or gauge employed therein."

Mr. RIDLEY considered that the terms of the amend-
ment were not specific enough, and suggested the addition
of the following words—" on behalf of such person by whom
he Is so employed."
After some conversation the amendment of Mr. AYIITON
was adopted, and the clause, as amended, was agreed to.
Clauses 11 and 12 were also agreed to.
1 On clause 13,
AYRTOIi moved the following amendment