The Sun.
London, England, 1860-06-15 00:00:00

Share 1

hey might not aspire to the rank of commissioned officers- 500 or 600 members could be readily obtained when any
would efficiently discharge the duties that now devolved on trifling party question arose, the house was almost deserted
midshipmen. He was not one of those who were for the total when they came to discuss important questions relating
abolition of flogging in the navy, which might be necessary the navy ; and unless the house put some pressure to
upon
topreserve blithe thought thatpunishment should Admiralty the present wretched system would continue,othe
not be inflicted except the men were tried and convicted by and the same want of energy would be displayed. By a
a court composed of officers and men. He would conclude false, penny wise economy they spoilt the effect of all they
by the following motion, his object being merely to draw did, and this, in fact, was the whole difficulty. li e must
the attention of the Admiralty to this most important say it was a disgrace to the country that there should be
subject :—" That, with a view to greater efficiency in war the slightest delay in procuring sufficient men for the navy ;
and less expenditure in peace, it is the opinion of this house and he thought the Government ought at OLC9 to say
that more prompt and effective measures should be adopted whether they disagreed with the recommendations of the
to complete the reserves of marines and seamen for her Manning Commission, and if they did not, whether they
Majesty's navy." were prepared to carry them out. He concurred entirely
Mr. LIDDELL said that great dissatisfaction was felt with the gallant, admiral that to attempt to defend the
from the non-establishment of school ships, and he believed country by fortifications was utter insanity- It would be a
there was only one school ship in existence. waste of money to construct fortifications, and, as regarded
Lord C. PAGET said there had been several communi- all practical purposes, the money so spent might be as well
cations between the Admiralty and the Board of Trade re- thrown into the Thames. (Hear, hear.) An efficient fleet,
specting the school ships. There were two classes of those costing half the money, would do more good than all the
ships—namely, the ships exclusively for the navy and the brick and mortar and stone-work which they could put
mixed school ships ; the ship Eagle, which had been sent together. (Hear, hear.)
to Southampton, being of the former description. Mixed Mr. WHITBREAD explained, with reference to a com-
school ships the Admiralty had not sent to Southampton plaint from Sir Charles Napier, that, although there was
nor anywhere else, wishing to pause for a while and see no savings bank proper which paid interest upon deposits
how the school ships exclusively for the navy succeeded. on board vessels of the royal navy, the sailors could deposit
Surely the Government was entitled to take their time and their money securely in the "second chest," kept by the
watch results before they ventured rashly to expend the paymaster. Another matter to which he wished to allude
public money. With respect to the naval reserve, it was was the qualifications required for the coast guard and the
making fair progress, and would get on faster only,that naval reserve. No doubt it would be easier to obtain men
theyrefusedall but first-rate seamen. The proof of this was if the qualification were lowered, but then the efficiency of
that shipowners were most anxious to get reserve men— the services would be proportionately lessened.
the Great Eastern being, if possible, to be at least half
manned from that source. With respect to enrolling Admiral DUNCOMBE said the Board of Admiralty had
been accused of not making sufficient exertions to procure
certainly rather a taking aspect, but he doubted men for the navy, but the matter was one of considerable
whether it would be of much use in getting the 20,000 difficulty. On that day week he went on board the Great
men which his honourable friend had promised. The con- Eastern, and one of the officers told him that the ship was
dition of the petty officers on board men-of-war was already then short 78 "A B" seamen, though they expected to sail
in 48 hours, and that they thought they would have to
very much improved, and 'as to the question of discipline,
endeavour to obtain them in America. It was true that the
a bill would be shortly introduced considerably modifying
vessels which were to carry the Prince of Wales and Prince
the articles of war. The reserve was going on very fairly,
Alfred hid readily obtained the requisite number of men;
but th y had determined to take no second class men, as
but those ships were engaged in a favourite service, and
they believed th at certain recent unfortunate occurrences had
afforded no criterion of what could be done with respect to
arisen from a too indiscriminate enlistment. There were
others. He was glad to hear that the noble lord intended
now 9,000 boys training for the navy ; in addition there was
to revise the articles of war, for he believed that a judicious
the following reserve :—Coastguard, 6,612 men; naval re-
revision of them would do more than anything else to
serve (now), 1,105 men ; royal naval coast volunteers, make the naval service popular with seamen. Discipline
7,007 ; marines on shore, 6,084 ; making a total of 23,831
was of the greatest importance, but punishment should' be
men, exclusive of marines and sailors, afloat. The St.
commensurate with the offence committed. It should also
George was being fitted for sea, and although only a few
be certain ; but it was impossible to carry out the extreme
days in commission was already half manned, and there
penalties which were awarded by the present articles of
were the Hecate, Torch, and other vessels also getting
war. The recommendation of the commissioners with re-
manned with great facility. These were then our present
Bard to the training of boys was a most valuable pal t of
forces at home. He should have, greatly preferred not to
their report, because they must look almost exclusively, he
have addressed the house until after the hon. and gallant
thought, to their educating boys for seamen as the future
admiral the member for Southwark had spoken on the sub-
means of manning the navy efficiently. (Hear.)
ject, as it was very much the practice of the hon. and gal-
lant gentleman to wait for him (Lord C. Paget), and then Mr. A. SMITH contended that by the practice of taking
take him to task when he had no opportunity of replying. votes on account for the civil service, the estimates for that
(Laughter.) In coficlusion, however, he would assure the service would never come properly before the house for dis-
house that no exertions should be spared by the Admiralty cussion. Those estimates had been increasing from
_ yen r
in endeavouring to get up these reserves as quickly as pos-
to year to a very considerable extent. In Bel they
sible. (Hear, hear.)
xam6,o6ouon,toeodo,toant9On 01,805080,t0in£178,52335,t0000£,1,a8n0d0,0h000,
tihneelBgshlt to
t
Admiral WALCOTT said:he thought that greater advan-
lages ought to be held out in the naval service in the shape was full time for the house to look into that expend;ture.
of incentives to emulation, increase of wages, and a liberal The first item in the present estimates was for the Trea-
pension at the expiration of a certain period of service. At sury, who were themselves the chief sinners in the matter,
i
the present time, owing to their indiscriminate treatment inasmuch as they had not brought forward the estimates at
of good and bad seamen alike, we now experienced a deft-
an early period of the session ; and as they had not pro -
ciency of men. He would again urge on the Admiralty perly performed their work, they could hardly be entitled
the great importance of entering boys at ages between 11 to their pay. (A. laugh.) The most important perhaps of
and 16 to the extent of 2,000 to 3,000 every year. That all the votes was, however, thatfor public education, which
arrangement would be found to conduce very greatly to the had runup in amount in a greater degree than any of the
efficiency of the service, and for that purpose training ships others ; and if they agreed to these votes on account, they
ought to be established at Plymouth, Woolwich, Chatham, would hear nothing more with regard to the subject of
and Deptford, and our principal mercantile ports. Ware them until a late period of the session, when it would be
that done, he would stake his professional fame on it, our impossible to bring them under discussion. There was
also the vote for consuls abroad, which was likely to raise
naval supremacy would never fade.
Sir C. NAPIER, in alluding to the observation of the a most important discussion. Under these circumstances
Secretary to the Admiralty (Sir C. Paget), that he (the hon. he hoped the house would not agree to the votes on ac-
and gallant admiral) always rose to address the house after count. He would not object to going into committee, but
he proposed to take the sense of the committee upon the
the noble lord had done speaking, said that he generally
spoke very early in the debate; but if he did on any occa-
first votes in the estimates.
sion follow the noble lord, it was because he was taught by The motion of Mr. LINDSAY was then negatived without
experience to do so. He thought the noble lord had given a division.
very unsatisfactory replies to the able speech of his hon.
friend (Mr. Lindsay), who had stated most distinctly and
clearly that the recommendations of the Manning Commis-
sion had not been carried into execution. That commission
recommended a reserve of 60,000 men, not including the
5,000 additional marines and 5,000 men on leave on other
stations. The noble lord admitted that we had only 23,000
men, but the house would not include in that calculation
the men in the different ports and dockyards. If the noble
lord had read the report of the Manning Commission, he
would have found that the number recommended was in ad-
dition to those men. The commissioners also hoped that
the coastguard would be speedily raised, but that had not
been done; and it had not been done because too many re-
strictions had been imposed. Those who were entrusted
with the management of the coastguard had pointed out
that the term of service was too long, and that therefore
they could not get the men. The commission recommended
12,000 men as the number required, but the noble lord ad-
mitted they had only 6,800, and it was n6w nearly a year
since the report of the commission was made. At the pre-
sent moment we were not in very favourable relations with
other powers; and if things should get worse on the Con-
tinent, how were they to man the fleet on an emer-
gency ? His hon. friend behind him (Mr. Lindsay) had
said of the 4,000 men recommended by the commission to
be raised in addition to those on the guard ships and flag
ships, and all the men scattered about for various purposes
-in our ports, we had not a single one. Well, then, what
reserve really had we? Of the numbers recommended by
the commission we had only 3,182 men upon whom they
could rely, and who were ready to be called out on an ewer •
gency. In the tenders there were 576, in the district ships'
companies, able and ordinary seamen, landsmen, and boys,
they had 1,873 more. His hon. friend (Mr. Lindsay) asked
with great propriety who were to officer the 20,000 royal
volunteers when they got on board, and recommended that
officers from the merchant service should be employed.
Those officers were not to be paid, and he only asked for
them that they should be allowed a simple decoration, such
as an arrow on the arm. Those officers would accompany
the crews in the fine ships of the merchant service, and
would say to them, " I am a reserve officer, why should you
not be a reserve seaman ?" He believed there was only the
prejudice of those in office against such a proposal, and, for
his own part, he thought the plan was a plain and sensible
one. If some such system were not adopted, and any sud-
den emergency arose, we should be obliged to man our ships
with convicts, the sweepings of the gaols, and what were
called "Lord Mayor's" men. (Laughter.) If the Admi-
ralty had taken proper steps to take up the men who had
deserted, to establish naval prisons in the different ports to
punish them for that desertion, and to publish proper laws
for their punishment, he believed we should have very little
desertion. The noble lord said he was devising new laws,
but he was a very long time about it. His hon. friend bad
also recommended a higher grade of petty officers. At pre-
sent the difference between the seamen and the petty officers
was not sufficiently great, nor the difference between the
petty officer and the warrant officer. A seaman had nothing
to look forward to but a boatswain, a gunner, or a carpen-
ter, except in time of war, when he might have an oppor-
tunity of distinguiShing himself by some gallant action.
The condition of officers of the grades he had referred to
should be raised, and that was only to be done by raising
their pay. It was to be regretted also that school ships
had not been established. The noble lord on that point
only urged that it would cost too much money, and that the
ships would ,have to be provided with batteries. 'What the
devil did they wani; with batteries ? (Laughter.) The ques-
tion was, were those ships necessary for the service of the
country. If they were, it was the duty of the Government
to provide them at any cost. The Government had also ne-
glected to carry out the recommendations of the commission
with regard to the seaman's fund and savings bank for the
men at the several forts, by which their savings would be
relieved from the liability of being plundered. As regarded
the manning of the navy, the Great Eastern, the Peninsu-
lar and Oriental Company, and other great steam naviga-
tion companies found no difficulty in manning their vessels,
and it was a disgrace to the country that her Majesty's fleet
could not be manned. The great steam companies had no
difficulty in getting seamen to go to the coast of Africa, the
West Indies, or any other part of the world, and it was a
disgrace to the country that vessels of her Majesty's navy
could not be manned with the same facility. The Admiralty
ought to adopt some means for popularising the royal navy,
and he would also impress upon them the necessity of train-
ing boys for the service, because, although that might in-
volve a large expense, it was preferable to thet system of
cobbling which had gone on since the peace, without any
satisfactory result whatever. He expressed himself the
more strongly on these subjects because at present confu-
sion prevailed, not only in Sicily and in the East, but he
might say throughout the world. He believed that money
had much better be spent in strengthening our navy
than in fortifying our ports and towns. (Hear, hear.) For-
tifying our coasts would be entirely useless, because the
Emperor Napoleon, if he intended to invade this country,
would not be such a blockhead as to attack fortifications,
but he would find places at which to land on the east and
south shores of England.
The only proper, and the only
British way of defending the country was by having a well-
manned and well-disciplined navy. (Cheers.)
Mr. BE NTINCK entirely concurred with the hon. mem-
ber for Sunderland in the opinion that the Board of Admi-
ralty had not exerted themselves to the utmost to carry out
the recommendations of the Manning Commission, but the
question was to whom did the blame principally attach?
The board were no doubt directly responsible, but they bad
many difficulties to contend against, and he contended that
the blame actually rested with the house. It was the real
culprit, because to its utter indifference to that question
was to be traced the absence of the required exertions on
the part of the Admiralty. The Admiralty, like other de-
partments of the Government, had to deal with that ham_
venient personage the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who
often starved departments in order to balance his account,.
It was almost too much to expect gentlemen opposite would
run the risk of breaking up their Government by having a
downright quarrel with the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
and therefore it rested with the house to deal with the
matter. unfortunately, however, while an attendance of

PROPERTY AND INCOME TAX.
Mr. WHALLEY rose, pursuant to notice, to call atten
tion to the present mode of assessing the property and in-

come tax, with a view to a more equitable adjustment. The
house was aware that, from the first imposition of the tax,

the mode in which it was assessed and the principle of as-
sessment acted upon had occasioned deep dissatisfaction to
the trading and industrial classes. This grievance had

been repeatedly recognised in Parliament, and in 18.32 the

subject was referred to a committee, but so difficult did they
find it to lay down rules for a more equitable mode of levy-
ing the tax that they referred the matter back again to the
house. His object was not on the present occasion to in-
vite the house to discuss the present mode of assessment, or
to inquire whether it could be improved, and if so by what

means, but merely to ask the Government to state what
course they proposed to pursue in respect to it in the next
session of Parliament, when the tax would nave to be re-
imposed in a permanent form. Common sense ;evoked

against a system of taxation which charged upon precarious
incomes derived from trades and professions equally with
with permanent incomes, derived from real property; nor
was any argument needed to prove its injustice. (Hear.)
Still it might not follow that it was expedient to make any

change; but in that case the onus was upon the Govern-

meat to show that it could not be altered without inconve-

nience and injury to the public service. But he thought

he coull demonstrate that they had materials in their hands
for the adjustment of the tax without inconvenience, and
without exciting jealously and ill•feeling between the llnded

and the trading interests. In 1853, the present Chancellor
of the Exchequer admitted that the tax bore more hardlyupon
industry and skill than it did upcn property, but added that
a readjustment could not be carried out without the risk of
evils greater than those which arose from its inequality ;
and further stated that it was a temporary tax, and as such
only could be maintained. In 1856,however, another mem-
ber of the Government, Sir G. C. Lewis, contended that
the State, in estimating the capability of individuals to pay
taxes, should look not at the amount of their property, but
to the omount of their income, and that the ability of each
person to pay should be measured by the annual revenue
he possessed, and not by the value of that revenue af if it
were to be sold and capitalised. He (Mr. Whalley) thought
the country should know which of those two opposite views
the Government now adopted, andwhether they could show
that the opinion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer was,
that no adjustment of the tax could take place which would
not produce evils greater:than those it was sought to remedy.
All the testimony adduced by the committeee of 1852 was
adverse to existing system of levying the tax, and tended to
show not only that it was most unjust towards those with

tinetuatingineoruee-derivable from the exertions of their o 13

industry, but thtit it gave rise to immorality and fraud. If
it was possible to devise a remedy, it was, most essential to
adopt it now that the property and income tax was about
to be made the permanent source of revenue. In 1549
Parliament passed an act releasing from its liability to the
poor-rate visible property, as stock in trade, amounting to
£16,000,000 a year, and which might be said to be property
of an analogous character to that which came under schedule
I) of the Property Tax Act. It was true that by usage this
class of property was exempt .from liability to the poor-
rate; but in the year he had mentioned the exemption was
confirmed by Act of Parliament, and the burden trans-
ferred to the land. That act was originally I assed for two
or three years, he forgot which, but since then it had been
continually renewed without objection on the part of the
owners of real property, by whom its justice had been
previously practically recognised. When the bill of 184 D
was under discussion the present Lord Chancellor,
then a member of the House of Conmons, said it was most
inquisitorial to attempt to tax stock irtitrade, but how much
more inquisitorial must it be to tax property such as was
assessed under schedule D, and which was not even, as,
stock in trade was, "visible" property, but property that
was invisible. (Bear, hear.) He submitted that in the courge
taken with regard to the liability of visible personal property
to the poor rate, they might find a means for the satisfac-
tory adjustment of the income tax in respect to incomes de-
rived from trades and professions. With the permission of
the house he would react a letter upon the subject from Mr.
George Coombe, a gentleman well known to many mem-
bers of the house as having paid great attention to matters
of this kind. The letter stated that materials existed, and.
were in the power of the Government, not only to ascertai-n
the operation of the tax, but to set it free from all those et.)-
jections which now aggravated its unpopularity, but thi.we
materials could never come out before any parliamentary
committee, or by means of any inquiry of the house ft, elf,
but only by means of an investigation conduct ed
bna y
.some
independent tribunals appointed for the purpose. sug-
gested that such an inquiry should be instituted, anti that
they should have an authoritative statement as to whatwas
the true state of the case.
Mr. POLLARD_uRQUHART believed that ft would
be dangerous longer to trifle with the feelings of t
UV people
with regard to the injustice of this tax as now levied. Ha
thought the time had come when it would be folly and
madness any longer to trifle with the feelings of the country
by refusing to grapple with this question.
Sir F. GOLDSAIIII said there was a very strong impres-
sion in various parts of the country that there was unfair-
ness in the imposition of this tax. That unfairness had
been submitted to because there had been a constant hope
that in two or three years the tax would be taken off. That
hope had now depart,d, and he thought the country
ought now to have an assurance that the Government
would grapple with the subject.
Mr. J. P. WESTHEAD said he represented a city in
which there was a great number of gentlemen of the legal
and clerical profession, and he believed they all considered
that this tax was most unfairly levied. He was sorry to
say that the prospect before us in reference to this tax was
very gloomy, and he feared that the tax would remain a
burden on the industry of the country for some time to
come. It appeared to him that a man, who byhis industry
had attained to a position in which he could maintain his
family in comfort, ought not to be taxed at the same rate
as a man who had property to bequeath to his children.
(liear.) He should certainly use his inflauce, if he sect*