The Sun.
London, England, 1856-04-25 00:00:00

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hon. gentleman opposite ho has made this motion that
r o advantage can arise in delaying other business on
account of a discussion which cannot take place satis-
factorily until 'my right hon. friend returns.
Colonel KNOX asked whether it were the case that
the clerks of the Treasury embarked from Portsmouth
instead of from. Southampton, because, if that were so,
he thought that the Houses of Lords and Commons might
have done the same ? He could only add his testimony
to what had been said about the arrangements of yester-
day ; and he hoped for the future when inquiries and
blue-books were talked about with reference to the con-
duct of gallant officers in both services engaged in the
war, that the country would place the saddle on the
right borne, and would understand that, those arrange-
ments for which officers were blamed were due to the
Government, and to the Government alone. (Cheers.)
Mr. H. HERBERT was not surprised at the disap-
pointment which had been expressed at the arrangements
which had been made for the accommodation of the
House of Commons ; but, having been one of the first
on board the Perseverance, he was anxious to bear testi-
mony to the extremely obliging conduct of Capt. Mac-
donald and the officers of that vessel. (Cheers.) At the
hour appointed Capt. Macdonald's vessel was in readi-
ness, and but for the delay elsewhere the House of Com-
mons would have been at the review in good time.
Mr. NEWDEGATE—I hope that the hon. member
for Salisbury will also be in his place when we are hon-
oured with the presence of the First Lord of the Admi-
ralty, because unquestionably we have great reason to
complain of the railway arrangements. As this house
legislates for the regulation of railways, I think that it
would be a gross dereliction of duty if, after such mis-
management brought within our own experience, we were
to take no notice of it. lam glad that the question is
not likely to pass without observation, because I feel that
the House of Commons being late on such an occasion
savours of disrespect to her Majesty, and I hope that
we shall acquit ourselves of all blame upon that score
by fixing it upon the proper persons.
Captain SCOBELL saw no good in poutponing the dis-
cussion until the arrival of the First Lord of the Adnatealty.
Of course the First Lord would be unaware of the incon-
venience which the house had experienced, and, at all
events, he could not help it now. O❑ future occasions he
hoped that the right hon. gentleman would make his ar-
rangements with better effect; for yesterday the whole
" transit" was so bad that it was only by the greatest
" perseverance" that the house ever got back to London.
The Government, of course, could not answer for the rail-
way, but when members arrived at the end of the railway
journey there was no way of getting off to the fleet ex-
cept by swimming for it. He believed that not one mem-
ber either of the Cabinet or of the Government was pre-
sent to receive the Speaker arid the house upon their ar-
rival, and he thought altogether that there was much
reason to complain. No doubt the Government were bet-
ter provided for somewhere else, but surely some one or
other of them might have been there to receive the house.
He regretted that on such an occasion some sailing vessels
had not been introduced to show the contrast between
such ships and steamers ; and he thought that their ab-
sence rendered the review somewhat incomplete.
Colonel FRENCH—I would beg to suggest to the
noble lord at the head of the Government that when
the First Lord of the Admiralty comes to town he
should give him a check for his uncourteous behaviour
towards the members of this house in general, and to
the hon. member for Anglesea in particular, to whom,
when he questioned the arrangements that were being
made, the right hon. baronet replied, that if members
didn't like them they might stay at home. The system of
checking, I believe, has already commenced, and I think•
that it might be extended with advantage. Report says
that the Secretary of the Admiralty bad arranged that
members of the Government 'of the Csbiuet) and their
1N ives should go in one vessel, and members of the Go•
verninent (not of the Cabinet) and their wives in another;
but that the ladies took the quarrel up and declared that
they would not be treated in such a manner. (Hear,
and laughter.) It is said that the noble lord did then
interfere, and that in consequence all the ladies were
permitted to go together. I think, therefore, that it
would be exceedingly desirable thatthe noble lord should
teach the right hon, baronet to behave with proper
coimt sy. (Hear.)

Sir G. GREY—I cannot allow the speech of the lion. 1
gentleman who has just sat down, and which he has
trade in perfect ignorance of the facts, to pass unnoticed.
When my right hon. friend comes to the hou.n he will
state the arrangements which were made by the Admi-
ralty, in order to afford the greatest amount of conveni-
ence to the greatest number of people in witnessing that
magnificent spectacle at Spithead which reflected the
highest credit on. the country. (Hear, and "Oh, oh!")
I say thtt that magnificent fleet and the evolutions which
it performed at the review are calculated to raise this
.country in the estimation of all who witnessed it—
foreigners as well as Leglishmen. (Hear, hear, and
cries of " Question !") My right honourable friend,
I am sure, intended no discourtesy in the answer
which he gave to the honourable member for An-
glcsea ; and, however much reason there may be
to complain of the difficulty in getting on board the Per-
. pwearsfe
cc
ot
13;1 satisfied
yesterdayw it h th. e (
manner
severarce, I am certain that every one must have been
Hear.)lAnllwthhaiethwethhaatvsehtipo
regret was the difficulty which was experienced in get-
ting on board her. With regard to the railway, of
cour.e) the Government was not responsible for delays
there ; and, as to no member of the Beard of Admiralty
being present to receive the house, I may state that the
whole of the Mara of Admiralty was, by her Majesty's
conimatt&., in attendance upon her Majesty.
Mr. HOWARD thought the house somewhat unjust in
its strictures upon his right hon. friend relttive to the
First Lard of the Admiralty. It appeared to hint that the
arrangements were of a very high order, and that the
house ought to have been very grateful for them. (Laugh-
ter and loud cries of " Oh, oh !" more especially from
the Opposition side of the house.) The house had shown
a great deal of impatience, and did not appear suffici-
ently to appreciate the magnificent spectacle of yesterday.
The blame ought to be attributed to the proper people,
and they were the conductors of the railway. (Hear.)
Capt. DUNCOUBE spoke to the defective at-de of
one of the vessels employed upon the occasion—either
the Transit or the Perseverance, but we did not catch
which.

The Marquis of GRA.NBY thought that the House of
Commons had great reason to complain that they had
been allowed no share in the admirable arrangements
which had been provided for the rest of the public. As
he was on board the Perseverance, however, he must add
his testimony to that which had been already given of

the admirable behaviour of the commander of that ves-
-891. (Hear, hear.) No doubt, as was said by an hon.
gentleman opposite, the review at Spithead was a mag-
nifiunt spectacle ; but, unfortunately, the House of
Commons had not•sucoeeded in seeing it. (Hear.) A
peace which he sincerely trusted would be an enduring
one had happily been terminated, and no doubt the re-
view had been intended to show to the world what Eng-
land was able to do. Now, there was no doubt as to
the maquißcent fleet of ships which had been prepared,
nor as to the gallantry and skill of the crews which man-
ned them, but there was one point upon which some
doubt did exist, and without question the review was
held in order to dispel that doubt. That doubt was as to
the efficient administration of the Admiralty, and the
object of the review was to prove that the administration
of that department was now different from what it had
hitherto been. It was to prove that scenes such as those
which had occurred in Balaltlava harbour could never

occur again ; but the result had been to produce a state
of things in the harbour of SJuthauipton similar to what
bad taken place at Balaklava, and, when such confusion
prevailed in a harbour not 78 miles from London, how
could any one be astonished at its being displayed in a
harbour distant 3,000 miles ? The members of that
house had been invited to be present, and they had
fallen victims to that very system, a change of which
was intended to be evinced by the review.
Mr. PEACOCKE said that he understood that the
refreshment for members of the two Houses of Parlia-
ment had been contracted for at 7s. 6J. a head—(An
Hon. Member.—" Five Shillings.")—but the Board of
Admiralty had taken much better care of themselves ;
for he understood that the clerks of that department
' were provided with all the delicacies of the season. He
did not complain so much as regarded the members of
that house, but as regarded the members of the other
House of Parliament, who were accompanied, by ladies;
he thought that they were entitled to at leastthe same
fare as the clerks of the Admiralty. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. KENNEDY considered that the whole of the
blame ought to be attributed to mismanagement on the
part of the railway companies, and he should, on an
early day, move for an inquiry into the causes of the
delay which had occurred on the line of railway.
The motion was then negatived.
CENTRAL AMERICA.
Lord PALMERSTON laid the correspondence rela-
tive
L from I T
Mr. NHT. Ileum;
QUESTION.
E
to the Central Americasidthe papers
question on the table.
t THEo
ranswerln
.wdoAu PALMERSTON
to E
iRe AMERICAN C
questionA
readyN
n a few days,
N with reference
it
when they should
be laid on the table.
TilE CIVIL SERVICE CONINIISSIONERS.

Viscount GODERICH moved an address to thank
her Majesty for having caused to be laid before this house
the
a
Civil Service Commissioners : to
t e
her Majesty that this house had ob-
served, with great satisfaction, the real and prudence
with which the commissioners have proceeded in
applying a remedy to evils of a serious character,
the previous existence of which had now been placed
beyond dispute ; and also the degree of progress
that had been made, with the sanction of the heads of
various departments of the State, towards the establish-
ment of a system of competition among candidates for
admission to the civil service : to assure her Majesty
of the steady support of this house in the prosecution
of the salutary measures which she had been
graciously pleased to adopt; and humbly to make
known to her Majesty that if she should think fit fur-
ther to extend them, and to make trial in the civil ser-
vice of the method of open competition as a condition of
entrance, this house would cheerfully provide for any
charges which the adoption of that system, may eAtail.
' The noble lord commenced by palming & eulogitiro upoi

!ON

t:7

't%ell.ll4lWo
epe seer,
he ability and zeal with which the civil service ciinitnins „„
sioners bed discharged their important duties, and ,
ceeded to adduce from their reportseevidence to show _rl S
that nut of 106 candidates who had beer. examined for
the Customs' department, 42 had been rejected for ttte
grossest ignorance ; while out of 54 candidates who hail
been examined for the Admiralty appointments, 19 heel
been rejected in consequence of their inability to spell
correctly. It appeared that in the case of some of the re-
jected candidates, the word " fingers" had been spelt
"finguree," while the word "guilty" had been lee gtbened
by the addition of a second "t;" and further, that all those
who had been rejected were nominee candidates Now
the only remedy for the continuance of such a state of
things was, he believed, to be found in the adoption of the
system of free and open comps tition,and in the maintenance
of that view he was upheld by the perusal of the commis-
sioners' report. It was beyond all question the duty of the
Government to obtain for employment in the civil set-
/ice the fittest persons who could be secured. Under
the existing system a result so desirable tad failed to by
brought about, inasmuch as one-third or one-fourth of
the nominee candidates had been rejected upon accouret
of their deficiency in respect of the simplest elements of
knowledge ; nor was there any guarantee that those
I who had succeeded were much more conversant with
that information which it was expedient they should pos-
sess. And to what, he might ask, was the deficiency in
knowledge, to which he referred to be ascribed ? Was it
to the circumstance that the middle classes—from which
the candidates for civil service were for the mostpart de-
rived—were themselves deficient in education 1 In his
opinion, the cause ought rather to be sought in the pre-
sent defective mode of selecting those candidates far
examination. (Bear.) And it was because he held that
opinion that he was desirous of seeing a system of free
and open competition for the civil service established.
By the adoption of such a system we should be enlarging
the sphere of our choice and would be enabled to
make our selection from the flower of the middle classes.
In support of his views upon that subject he might to
some extent quote the authority of the right hon. gen-
tleman the present Secretary for the Colonies, who, in
a letter to the Civil Service Commissioners, had stated
it to be his opinion that examinations conducted upon
the competitive principle afforded a better security for
the selection of fit candidates than, in its absence, the
efforts of examiners, however experienced they might
be, could provide. The opinion of the commissioners
would, he thought, upon a perusal of their report, be
found to be no less clear upon the point, and he there-
' fore hoped that the subject would receive the serious
attention of her Majesty's Government. It might be
urged, however, by the advocates of the system of nomi-
nation, that under it a certain valuable control was exer-
cised with respect to the moral qualifications of those
who presented themselves as candidates for examination,
and that under the system which he proposed such must
cease to be the case. But in answer to that argument
he might ask, if it was true that under the present sys-
tem any such valuable moral control as that to which Ale
had just alluded prevailed ? Did the right hon. gentle-
man the member for Wells (Mr. Hayter), for instance,
institute any inquiries upon that score ?—or if he did,
was it possible in nine cases out of ten any accurate in-
formation could be received ? He believed not, and he
could not, therefore, see that the argument to which he
had averted formed any good ground why a system cf
open competition should not be favourably entertained.
He might observe that the Society of Arts had recently
promulgated a scheme for a system of public examina-
tion for members of mechanics' institutes, which was
based upon the principle of free competition, and
that to that scheme several eminent commercial firms,
to whom a prospectus of it had been sent, had given
their approval. He need only mention the firms of the
honourable member for Halifax (Mr. Crossley); Fox,
Henderson, and Co., and Truman, Hanbury, Buxton,
and Co., as among the number, to show that it was
a principle likely to find favour with the commercial
classes. It was the principle which was adopted in the
Indian civil service and in the Ordnance department,
and in both it had been found to work well. But it
might be said the civil service in this country was not so
lucrative as in India, and that the success of free compe-
tition in its regard could not be taken as a guarantee of
the success of a similar system established at home, in-
asmuch as here similar attractions, in point of emolu-
ment, would not be presented to men of ability. His
answer to that argument should be, that be believed
the Government would have no difficulty in finding,
competent men in this country, too, it they set to work
in the right way, because the civil service appoint.
ments contained that element of certainty which would,
beyond all doubt, direct towards their attainment the
minds of a large number of the youth of the middle
classes. (Rear, bear.) He also wished to consider
the question of free competition in relation to its bear-
ing upon the advancement of education generally
throughout the kingdom ; and that was a point to
which ho more particularly desired to call the attention
of that majority who had, upon a late occasion, disposed
so summarily of the subject of national education in that
house. Bur, although ho was anxious that the house
should sanction the principle of open competition to the
civil service, he was well aware that its adoption could
produce no m'raculous improvement in our public ad-
ministration. But in a Government like ours, where
the heads of the great offices of state were frequently
changed, a considerable advantage would necessarily
be gained by any measure which would tend to increase
the efficiency of the subordinate officials in the public
departments. Let them consider for a moment the
influence which the present system exercised over the re-
lations of members of that house to the people whom they
represented. He believed that under tbat system hots&
• the electors and elected were placed in a false and unbe-
coming position. The member of Parliament who re-
commended a person for employment did not ask him-
self whether he was the fittest person that could
be found,
,but pressed his application with a zeal pro-
pertioned to the chances of support he might him-
self receive from a constituent at an election ; and the'
elector put on his representative a pressure which must,
in the natural course of things, prove detrimental to the
public service. He could not for a moment believe that
such a system was necessary to the good working of our
Parliamentary form of government. It was, in his opi-
nion, of the utmost importance that we Should prevent
the relaticooi which members of Parliament bore to their
constituents from sinking into that of mere delegates awl
thspet,ser3 of patronage. The connection between them
ought to rest on mutual confidence—a confidence on the
part of the electors in tl &r wisJoin, honesty, and patriot-
ism of their repreeentai ivese and a confidence -on the part
of the elected in the moderation and intelligence of their
constituente. He believed that by adopting the compe-
titive system in that case more would be done than could
be effected by any other measure to place the relations
• of both parties on a sound and an honest footing. He
believed, too, that such a change would greatly coa-
-1 tribute to insere the most efficient men for the dis-

charge of the public service; to relieve the Government
from ao eful arrassing and an injurious pressure ; to pro-
mote the diffusion of education throughout the country ;
to remove class differences, and to allay the sense of
class injustice ; and for these reasons he begged leave to
move the address of which he hat given notice.
Sir S. NORTHCOTE seconded the motion. He said he
had reason to think that the objects of those who advocated
the open competitive system in that case were very gene-
rally misunderstood by their opponents. They certainly did
not wish that the only test of fitness for an office should
be mere book learning. They fsli, on the contrary, that
good character was the very tirst of all qualifications, and
that literary or scientific attainments should be a subor-
dinate consideration. The open competitive system, as he
understood it, did not exclude, but, on the contrary, in-
cluded a careful examination of cl!aracter. It was fre-
quently said that such a man as the Duke of Wellington
would have been rejected under a competitive system.
But he did not believe that; be wss persuaded, on the con-
trary, that the Duke of Wellington would have easily
succeeded in passing any examination for which the cir-
cumstances of his time might have rendered it necessary
that he should have prepared himself. There was no
reason why an examination should not be so framed that
it would make known the stuff that was in a man as well
as his proficiency in any particular branch of human
study. He had been very much struck with a passage
in the book or, England lately published by M. de Mon-
talembert. In that passage the writer contrasted the
life and freedom of our system of education with the re-
straint imposed on the boys in the colleges of his own
country ; and he ended by stating that the English sys-
tem turned out not mere scholars, but men. That was
precisely the system which he wished to encourage
and to develop by the adoption of the competitive prin-
ciple in examinations for admission into our publio
offices ; and he believed that such a measure would, at
the same time, have the effect of securing for the state
the aid of the most useful and efficient public servants.
(Hear, hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—The noble
lord, in the speech so full of moderation and good taste in
which he has biought this motion forward, has said that
those who advocate the measure Which he supports have
been charged with the intention of endangering the con-
stitution and subverting the liberties of the country. So
far as I am concerned in anything I may have formerly
said, I never certainly made any such charge as that ; and
I am far from intending to make any such imputation on
the present occasion. My noble friend likewise has argued
against the system of nomination upon the ground that it.
is unnecessary, and detrimental with respect to the
working of our representative system of government.
He hiss shown the disadvantage which a system of nomi-
nation, conducted simply upon principles of patronage,
is calculated to produce in respect to the purity of our
electoral system. Ido not object to the principle of
open competition, upon the ground of its inconsistency
with the system of patronage ; nor, I am bound • to say,
will I throw any doubt upon the doctrine which my
noble friend enforces, upon the ground that it will diminish
the patronage at the disposal of the Crown. I wish to argue
this question simply upon the ground of the (Adel:AY ,of
the service. Whether the principle my noble friend seems
to introduce will or will not render the civil service of the
Crown more efficient than it was before--that is the issue
which I wish to raise. A motion, identical in its tendency,
though different in expression, was submitted last session by
the hon. member for the county of Cork ; it underwent full
debate, and ended with a rejection of the motion. It was
made not long after the order in council appointing the
civil service commission bad issued ; and the Ileum ap-
peared reluctantly to disturb that measure before it had had
a fair trial. That system has now been in force something
less than a year. The order in council is dated the 21st of
May, 185;; and of course a little delay occurred before it
could be carried out. The civil service commissioners have
made their report ; it is now on the table of the house ;
and in that report they have, with great perspicuity and
fulness, detailed the steps they have taken in execution of
the important trust confided to them. I hope that every
one who has read this report will agree with me in think-
ing that the civil service commissioners have direharged
their duties with groat discretion, and in a highly efficient
and useful manner, and that the choice of the Crown could
not possibly have fallen on gentlemen more calculated to
perform the duty in a satisfactory manner. The result of
I,l:lair proceedings has been to subject all-the candidates far
atimilkinli into the public pervies to an examination for