The Sun.
London, England, 1856-02-19 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING_ FEBRUARY 19, i 856.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

not have acted in a more consistent manner if
they had refused to entertain the subject of that
measure at such a period, when it was impossible it
could be considered in a manner adequate to its import-
ance, and when they knew that it had been passed
through the other house in the most hasty and careless
manner ?
After a few remarks from Earl GRANVILLE,
Lord REDESDALE withdrew the resolutions for the
present.
PIRACY IN THE CHINA SEAS.
The Earl of ALBEMARLE rose to present a peti-
tion from the native and European merchants of the
British settlement of Singapore, praying for protection
to their trade from piracy ; and asked her Majesty's
Ministers what steps they had taken to comply with a
memorial from the merchants of Singapore, dated the
12th of June, addressed to the Lords Commissioners of
the Admiralty, on the subject of the aforesaid piracy.
The noblo lord briefly described the circumstances
under which the piracy took place, as well as the pecu-
liar obstacle which prevented its being put down. The
most formidable piracies were committed by the Chinese,
and the smaller junks fell an easy prey. Apart from the
duty of putting down piracy we had a convention with
the Netherlands, dated 1824, and the Dutch performed
their part of the duty, whereas our vessels were wholly
inadequate for their intended purpose. He begged,
therefore, to ask the noble lord the question of which

HOUSE OF LORDS—(YE.sTEILDAy).

THE WENSLEYDALE PEERAGE
COMMITTEE OF PRIVILEGES.
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack
at 2 o'clock, and shortly after the house resolved itself into
a Committee of Privileges, Lord REDESDALB in the chair,
" to examine and consider the copy of the letters patent
purporting to create the Right Hon. Sir James Parke,
Knight, a baron of the United Kingdom for life (pre-
sented on Monday the 4th inst.), and to report thereon to

this house."
The LORD CHANCELLOR announced that he had
received a letter from Lord Wensleydale, announcing
that he declined appearing before their lordships' com-
mittee by eetiesel.
At the request of Earl GREY the letter was read in
txtenso as follows :
"MY DEAR LORD CHANCELLOR,--I have the honour to
acknowledge the receipt of an order of your lordships'
house, of the 12th inst., giving nae liberty to be heard by
counsel, if I should think fit, on Monday next. before the
Committee of Privileges, to whom it is referred to examine
and consider a copy of the letters patent, purporting to
create me a Baren for life. I will thank your lordship to
state for me that I decline to appear by counsel before the
Committee.
" I have the honour to be, my dear Lord Chancellor,
" Your very obedient
" Feb' 16, lf 5 i." WII:EYDALE.
Lord CAMPBELL said he rejoiced his learned friend
bad not denied, by that letter, their lordships' jurisdiction.
Mr. Smith, an officer of their lordships' house, exa-
mined by Lord Lyndhurst, produced copies of the jour-
nal of the house, dated 1660, relative to the Earl
Banbury peerage, to the Pierbeck peerage of 1660, to
the Marquis of Worcester peerage, 1660, and relative to
the scions of peers during the life time of the father,
and also of barons by writ, and also that of the peerages
of Ormond, Hamilton and Brandon, and Fermoy, and
of Lord Dingwall, and others.
3,4:r. Sharpe said that the patents before their lordships'
house had been translated by Mr. Hardy, but that gen-
tleman was not present. Witness had not examined
them.
Lord LYNDHURST asked their lordships if they
deemed it necessary to send for Mr. Hardy
The LORD CHANCELLOR said he apprehended
it mattered not whether a witness was called to prove
the translation. Noble lords should use their own discre-
tion on that point.
Lord LYNDHURST said he wished to know if
their lordships desired him to go through patents pre-
vious and subsequent to the periods placed on the table
to prove senegative. He wished to know if that was
sufficient ? He had not had time to make further re-
searches.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said be could give no
answer to the question. It was fcr the noble lord to
ake bin own course.
Lord LYNDHURST said there had not been suffi-
cient time for him to examine the other patents to prove
a negative, and stated that an application hail been
made to the Master of the Rolls to make certain searches,
but that learned gentleman declined, not having re-
ceived an order from their lordships' house. That was
his answer whereby certain evidence had not been pro-
duced, and if it was necessary to produce it a further
delay must take place.
Lord CAMPBELL regretted the delay that must
arise in consequence of this. They were now morally
convinced they had all the evidence tbat could be pro-
duced, but no doubt it would be desirable to have the
legal evidence that further search had been made,
but no further precedents could be found.
The Earl of DERBY said this was a question that
ought not to be taken up in a party spirit. It was not
for the Lard Chancellor or any other noble lord
to throw obstacles in the way. It was not
Lord Lyndhuret's case, but that of the committee.
(Hear, hear.) When, however, the whole of the
evidence relative to the question bad been
collected and examined, and laid on the table of
their lordships' house, it would be for the noble and
learned lord (Lyndhurst) to submit a motion thereon to
the committee.
Earl GRANVILLE said that the Government bad
no desire to throw impediments in the way.
Lord ST. LEONA RDS condemned the conduct of
the Government with respect to the conduct of this in-
quiry.
The LORD CHANCELLOR denied that the course
he took was one of a technical character. It was for
him to say what search should be made in this case.
He was ready to admit that every search had been made.
Lord CAMPBELL— -With that admission of the Lord
Chancellor the noble Lord (Lyndhurst) had better close
his evidence.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said he had received a
letter from a gentleman in the Rolls Court, Dublin,
announcing the grant of an Irish life peerage in the
time of Philip and Mary, which was the time stated by
the noble lord (Lord Derby). He reserved the right of
using it if he thought necessary.
Lord LYNDHURST said he would endeavour to
bring before their lordships such evidence as would allow
them to come to a correct conclusion on the subject.
Earl GREY said that he thought the negative search
might go on, and the nohle and learned lord gave his
notice for the discussion of the question on an early day.
Lord BROUGHAM doubted they could not come to
a proper conclusion until the whole of the evidence had
been produced. It would net do to discuss the ques-
tion on the admissions of this or that from n able and
learned lords, and he suggested the further consideration
of it till the whole of the inquiry was completed.
Lord AEINGER, said this was not a mere question of
Lord Wensleydale's taking his seat, but one that affected
the constitution of their lordships' house. If life peer-
ages weregiven to lawyers, why should they not be given
to military men ? To these taro °eke; of peerage might
bring the hereditary branch into collision with the
Crown and the House of Commons, and might endan-
ger the existence of the.r lordships' house.
Lord DERBY suggested the adjournment of the
committee to Friday, and the noble and learned lord
gave notice of a motion on the question in the mean-
time.

he bad given notice.
The Earl of GRANVILLE said that information had
been received that piracy was carried on in such small
boats in the China Seas that the ships sent out
could not follow owing to the shallow water.
A despatch had been sent out to detach a
steamer for the purpose of putting down the
piratical trade. When the orders of the Board of Control
were received be had no doubt that more effectual
means would be taken to carry out this object.
VICE-PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL OF
EDUCATION.
This bill passed through committee.
HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICES BILL.
This bill passed through committee.
METROPOLITAN POLICE DILL.
This bill also passed through committee.
Their lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(YEsTEE,DAY.)
The SPEAKER took the chair at a quarter to 4 o'clock.
NEW MEMBER.
Mr. A. BLACK took the oaths and his seat for Edin-
burgh.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
The following bills were severally read a second time,
and ordered to be committed :—Boston Gas, Chorley
Water, Crystal Palace Co., Fleetwood, Preston, and West
Riding Junction Railway, Gainsborougk Gas, Hasling-
den and Rawtenstall Water, Honiton and Sidmouth
Road, Inverness and Aberdeen Junction Railway, Leeds
Improvement Aets Amendment, Leeds Water, London.
derry and Enniskillen Railway, Metropolitan Railway,
Midland Railway, Milford Junction Railway, Norfolk
Railway, Penrith and Cockermouth Roads, Rotherham
and Barnby Moor Road, Scarborough Water, Stirling
and Dunfermline Railway, Vale of Clyde Railway,
Wakefield Gas, Wavesey Valley Railway, Oxford, Wor-
cester, and Wolverhampton Railway (Additional Capi-
tal, &c.)
LANDS IMPROVEMENT COMPANY (SCOT-

LAND) BILL.

On the motion that this bill be read a second time,

Mr. E. LOCKHART opposed the motion, and moved
that it be read a second tune that day six months.
Mr. W. LOCKHART supported the bill.
Mr. FITZROY could not support the amendment.
There was nothing new in the bill, as the principal points
it contained were to be found in two statutes already
on the table. He therefore thought that the bill ought
to he read a second time.
The motion was ultimately withdrawn, and the bill
was road a second time.
Petitions against the opening of the Crystal Palace,
British Museum, and National Gallery on Sundays
were presented by Mr. M. Smith, Mr. Wilcox, Mr.
Baxt•T, Mr. Hindley, Mr. Butler, Mr. Masterman,
ST E. B. Lytton, Mr. Ball, Mr. Acland, Captain
Duncombe, Lord Emlyn, Mr. Christie, Mr. James
M`Gregor, Mr. Spooner, and several other lion.
member,.
Sir J. -WALMSLEY presented a similar petition
amidst great laughter.
Several petitions were also presented in favour of open-
ing the Crystal Palace on Sundays.
ROBBERIES (GLASGOW).

Mr. STIRLING obtained leave for a return relative
to robberies, &c., in Glasgow.
ABJURATION OATHS.

Mr. M. GItSON gavii notice that, on Friday next,

he should move fr a cJimnitte.e of the whole hnu;e, with
a view to obtain leave to bring in a bill for the repeal
of the oaths of abjuration.
PUBLIC-HOUSE LICENCES. _

Mr. LUSHJNGTON asked the Vice-President of the
Board of Trade whether it was the intention of the Go-
vernment to bring in a bill for the purpose of carrying
into effect the resolutions of the committee of the House
Of Lords of last session on agricultural statistics ?
Mr. LOWE said it was.
THE CRIMEA:.

Mr. LAXARD asked the lindtr Secretary for War
why the list of officers recommended. by General Simp-
son for promotion for distinguished services in the attack
on the Redam on the Bth of September, alluded to in
the Gazette of the sth of October last, had not yet been
published, and whether it was the intention of the Sec-
retary of State for War to publish that document ?
Mr. PEEL said that the list sent home by General

Simpson included all the officers in the army for Lord
Hardinge to select from, and hence the brevet of the 2.1
November. The names were all recorded at the Horse
Guardq.

Lord LYNDHURST said be would do so on the
assumption that no additional search being made for a
negative should not he used against him.
Lord GLENELG asked if it was the intention of
the noble and learned lord to ca:l in the assistacca of
the judges in deciding t"e legality of this question ?
Lord LYNDFIURST said he had no such intention.
The judges might give an opinion on the legality of the
patent, but they could not decide on the right to sit and
vote, that being out of their jurisdiction. A case had
occurred where the judges had been called in, but they
declined entering on the right of a peer to sit and vote.
The House. of Lords were the sole authority to de-
cide that question.
Lord CAMPBELL said if that were adopted great
delay must arise, because the judges were about to start
on circuit.
Earl GRANVILLE reminded the house that the pre-
sent discussion was irregular.
Earl DERBY asked if Lord Lyndhurst gave notice of
a motion, it was right the Government or any other
noble lord endeavoured to propose an amendment ?
Earl GRANVILLE said that for the Government he
would state, it any amendment were intended to be
proposed, ample notice of it would be given. At least
24 hours' consideration would be required. ,
Earl GREY gave a similar intimation. It would be
necessary to see the motion first.
After some remarks from Lord BROUGHAM on the
ill-advised granting of the peerage,
Their lordships adjourned till Friday next at five
o'clock,
Lord CAMPBELL intimating that, if desirable,
the house should sit on till a late hour to finish it.
The house then resumed, and suspended its sittings
till five o'clock.
Lord Lyndhurst, in the course of the sitting, handed
in his motion, which declared that the patent creating
Sir J. Parke a life peer did not entitle him to sit or vote
in their lordships' house.

REFORM OF THE STAFF OF THE BRITISH

ARMY.

COURT OF CLIANCERY (IRELAND.)

Their lordship re-assembled at five o'clock.
The Earl of HARDWICKE gave notice that to-
morrow he should ask a question of her Majesty's Go-
vernment as to their intentions respecting the ships
sunk within the harbour of Sebastopol.
Lord BROUGHAM postponed his motion respecting
judicial statistics front next Friday till Friday week.
The Earl of DERBY presented a petition praying that
in any measure that might be adopted on the subject of
Church Rates due care be taken to preserve the union
between Church and State.
Lard ST. LEONARDS presented a similar petition
roma Dorsetshire.
• THE FALL OP KARs,
The terl of HARDWICKE said a few nights ago
a
wish had been expressed by his noble friend (the Earl of
Ellenborough) that the papers in reference to the surren-
der of Bars should be placed on the table, and that a
discussion should take place before the noble lord for
Foreign Affairs left this country. It was, however,
understood from the Government that the pressure ea
them was so great that they were afraid that the papers
coald not be produced before the noble earl's departure.
lie wished now to ask when it was likely they would
e laid on the tablet
Earl GRANTILLE said, in the absence of the
Under Secretary of State, he could not exactly specify
the time.
The Earl of NIALMESBYRY hoped that as this was
a subject of the most pressing importance, that the noble
earl would urge the greatest despatch in respect to their
preparation.
Earl GRANVILLE said the greatest despatch would
be used in order that the papers might be laid on the
table.
Lord REDESDALE moved the following resolu-
tions:—

1. "That no private bill be read a second time after
Tuesday, the Bth day of July next.
2. That no bill confirming any provisional order of the
Board of Health or authorising any enclosure of lands
under special report of the Enclosure Commissioners for
Bngland and pales, or for c,onfirmino• any scheme of the
Charity Commissioners for Englan7l and Wales, bo
reads second time after Tuesday, the 15th day of July
next.

3. That when a bill shall have passed the house with
amendments, these orders shall not apply to any new bill
feet up from the House of Commons which the Chairman
of Committees shall report to the house as substantially
the same as the hill so amended."
Earl GREY said he thoug:it it was due to the
racter of the house to stand by those resolutions if they
were passed. Notwithstanding that resolutions were
passed, they
allowed them to be suspended in reference
to measures which could not
.bee.rthecharacter oi urgency,
as for example the limited liability measure was pressed
upon them at the latter end of last session on the plea of
urgency. He now appealed to their lordships whether
that plea was at all justified, and whether they would

Master of the Rolls in framing the Incumbered Estates
Act, took that opportunity of warning the house not
hastily to abolish a jurisdiction which had been so bene-
ficial to Ireland. (Rear, and no.) He should hesitate
much before he removed business from a court which

bad given such entire satisfaction. No complaints had
been made of the court, while it had disposed of an im-
mense amount of property in a satisfactory manner.
(" No, no," from Mr. Whiteside.) Its proceedings
might have been unsatisfactory to a small minority,
but as a general rule it met the requirements of pub-
lic opinion iu England and Ireland. Without oppos-
ing the second reading of the present bill, he (Mr,
Ellice) would watch with great jealousy any attempt to
supersede an act which he had himself strongly supported,
and which had, since the period at which it became law,
worked exceedingly well in Ireland.
_ _

Mr. WHITEabE said he was in this predicament
with respect to the bill, that he believed it to be impos-
sible of execution through the medium of the Court of
Chancery unreformed, or reformed as was proposed by
this bill. Since the last time he had addressed the house

he had been in Ireland, and found it to be the opinion
of the whole legal profession in that country that tho
working of the bill would be impossible. There were

still 1,600 estates, valued at sixteen or seventeen mil-
lions of money, remaining fair adjudication in the Incutn-
bered Estates Court, and three millions of money to be

distributed, showing that there was a great deal of diffe-

rence between the rapid sale of property and the proper
distribution of the proceeds afterwards. He believed
that although the court had effected sales with great.ra-
pidity, the distribution of the funds would not give en-
tire satisfaction. It .was the opinion of the whole liar
that the Court of Chancery could not dispose of these ar-
rears ; the attorneys thought the same ; and he had a
letter from the Master of the Rolls expressing a similar
opinion. The Master pointed out that the bill pro-
posed to do with four judges the amount of work now
done by nine. The Master also said that the business
might be done with the staff proposed, bnt certainly not
if the arrears were to be thrown on the new courts. He
(Mr. Whiteside) objected to this bill as a job, the object
of which was to oust all the officers of the Court of
Chancery and fill their places with the officers of the
Incumbered E dates Court, and that with that view
it was proposed to deprive the judges of the right of
nomination, and to lodge it with her Majesty's admi-
nistrator. Another objection to the bill was the want

of a satisfactory court of appeal, without which, it was
the opinion of the whole Irish bar, the bid could
never give satisfaction. He begged also to point out
that one object of the bill was to make the Court of
Chancery a great conveyancing machine for the whole
of Ireland. Any man possessed of property might,
athoegh owing no money, go into the Court of Chancery
and get a new title to his property without any expense,
the court having, at the expense of the country, to do
all the work of a conveyancer. If the proposal were
persisted in, of referring the bill to a committee of the
whole house, he must give his vote• against the second
reading.
Mr. J. O'BRIEN was of opinion that all the faults
which had been found to the bill were faults of deteil,
while its principle was well worthy the consideration of
the house. That principle was, to maintain the system
of Parliamentary title, which had already produced
such good effects in Ireland. If that system was to be
persevered in in the case of incumbered estates, there
would be gross injustice in withholding it from estates
that were not incumbered ; and as to the disposal of
arrears, that was merely a question of detail. He could
assure the house that if two estates of equal value in
every other respect were for sale, one with a Parliamen-
' tary title and one without, the former would fetch three or
four years' purchase more than the latter. If,then, it was
admitted that Parliamentary titles would be an advantage
to incumbered as well as unincumberad estates, the Court
of Chancery would be necessary to inquire into questions
of title. It had been objected that the Court of Chancery
had got into such I a 1 repute in Ireland, that they ought
mot to be entrusted with new powers ; but were they
prepared to abolis'i that court, or to refuse the reforms
contemplated by the bill, and which were not mere expe-
riments, but alterations framed upon the model of the
reforms which ha :I been carried out in this country ? It
was proposed to abolish the office of masters in chancery,
and to institute a tribunal similar to the Vice-Chancellors'
Courts. But it was a mere matter of detail whether the
existing masters were to be made vice-chancellors, or
whether new vice.chancellens should be appointed. If
at this moment all the arrears were thrown upon these
two vicechancellors, he admitted that it would be al-
most impossible to dispose of the business. But those
arrears would not come at once. If it did, that was a
mere matter of detail ; and if the Incurnbered Estates
Court were continued for the purpose of working up the
arrears, he saw no reason why the delay should take
place which the opponents of the present measure anti-
cipated. The business of the lncumbered Estates Court
was decreasing ; formerly, upwards of 1,200 petitions
had been presented in one year, while in 1854 only 372
petitions were presented. He saw no reason, therefore,
to fear, if the proposed court were relieved from the ar-
rears, that they would not be competent to the transac-
tion of all future business. Then with regard to the ex-
tension of the juricdicuon to unincumbered estates, it
was impossible to carry out the system of giving Parlia-
mentary titles in Ireland, unless the principle wan ex-
tended to all property, for which purpose this bill was
necessary. The constittr ion of the Court of Appeal was
a mere matter of detail, which might be arranged in
committee, as was the utse with most of the other objec-
tions which had been raised. The question now was
whether, considering the admitted necessity for /egisla-
tiem—conside irg, also, that this bill involved no new
principle, and that it had the unanimous support of the
Commission, the house was prepared to adopt the ex-
treme course suggested by the hon. member for

Mr, KER SEYMER moved for Returns for the last
five years for the Metropolitan District, showing the
number of license(' victuallers whose licences have
not been renewed in consequence of misconduct : Of
the number of public-houses permanently closed in
consequence of the refusal of magistrates to renew
the licences : And, Tear by year, of the number of
applications for new licences, showing how many have
been successful.—Granted.
AGRICULTURAL STATISTICS.

Mr. EWART inquired of ;be Under Secretary for
War whether any measures were in the contemplation
of the Government for the efficient reform of the Staff
of the British army, so as to make it a nucleus of the
best and most intelligent officers thereof, who shall re•
calve their appointments on the ground of merit only?
Mr. PEEL said it was, but nothing bad yet been de-
cided with regard to it.
FOREIGN OFFICE.

Lord PALMERSTON brought up a return of the
persons employed in the civil service of the Foreign-
office.

On the motion for the second reading 01 this
Mr. S. FITZGERA.LD presented a petition from
the solicitors practising in the Court of Chancery, Ireland,
against the bill, and he moved its second reading
that day six months. He thought the proposed
abolition of the Incumbered Estates Bill by this ima-
m e would he of the greatest evil to Ireland. This bill
was founded upon a commission issued to inquire whether
the powers of the Incumbered Estates Bill should cease
to be transferred to the Court of Chancery ; and he
much regretted that those commissions had been formed
entirely of lawyers practising in the Irish Court of
Chancery, for had others been associated with them,
as in the ease of the English Chancery Com-
mission, they would have been of great as,-ist•
ance, and many valuable improvements suggested.
He then reviewed the proceedings of'the commissioners,

and the subjects they had to investigate, and said they
did not attempt to elicit an answer from one of the wit-
' nesses brought before theta with reference to the trans-
fer of the jurisdiction fur the Incumbered Estates Bill.
One witness, Mr. Smith, had alluded to it, but his opi-
nion was against them, and the Master of the Rolls in
Ireland, had expressed an opinion upon the question, which
the hon. member read to the house. He next referred
to the contemplated changes with regard to the number
of judges in the Irish Court of Chancery who were to
be reduced in number, and who were to be called upon
to discharge the arrears in the Incumbered Estates
Court, now requiring an additional committee to dis-
charge, and also the Chancery bu-iness in addition.
They had too often been called upon to see men
in full vigour pensioned 'from abolished offices,
and other offices created to which others were
appointed, and he looked upon the provisions of this
bill as adopting that obnoxious principle, for whilst it
was put forth that a saving would be effected in the aboli-
tion of offices it was not really the case, for the pen-
sions of the abolished officers and those to be
appointed under this bill would be equal to, if not more
than those now paid under the present system. He looked
upon some of the provisions of this bill as introducing
exceptional legislation for Ireland, which he very much
deprecated, and which were of a piecemeal character.
He was of opinion, and he believed it was generally en-
tertained that the Incumbered Estates bill should be con-
tinued to Ireland for a limited period longer. It was
not now as atifirst a creditors curt, but a proprietors'
one, Who had frequent recourse to it ; and it would, if
continued, be of infinite benefit to that country.
asMar• P. URQUHART seconded the motion, and used
principal argument for so doing the con-
tinuation
tEhsattatdeisstreo Bs
and free operation of the Incum-
bered Bill for
amongstrnlrelan d.
landed It
preventproprie-
tors in that country in case of panic, as had been the case
in past years.
Mr.
This.DE A SbYi l 13
pu
rpoppoorstee
dd the
to
dseenclo n
witrhe a dt
hi pegs e ofgrethaet
bill
principles, viz., first, the Perpetuation of the unueual
powers of the Incumbered Estate's Bill ; secondly, the
transfer of those powers to the Court of Chancery 7 and
thirdly, the internal reform of the Irish Court of 'Chan-
eery. There was one portion of the bill to which the
hon. gentleman who moved this ameedment did not
advert, and that was the part which introducetil. into
the Irish procedure the regulations with regard 1,0 the
abolition of the office of master and the appointment of
chief clerks to the judges, which bad acted so fi e .
&ally in England. He thought that this portion of the
bill was entitled to the warmest commendation. Be-
lieving that the general scope of the measure was most
beneficial, he should vote for the second reading, and he
trusted that in committee the house would arrange a
bill alike creditable to the Legislature and advantageous
to the country.
Mr. CAIRNS entreated the house not to be led away
by flattering descriptions of the reformed Court of Oh:vi-
a:wry in Ireland, to abolish the Incumbered Estates
Court which had had such beneficial results in the con'',
try. He should advise that the jurisdiction of this cov.et
should he extended to unincumbered estates.
Mr. ELLICE, as one who had taken a part with +1

Horebarn.
Mr. GEORGE admitted that they ought not to refuse
a seem I reading to the bill merely because they objected
to certain of the details. In many respects the series of
bills proposed by tie hon. and learned member for En-
niskillen were identical with the Government measure,
and he suggested that the better course would be to
refer them all to a select committee. If that were done,
he should vote for the second rea ling ; if not, he should
oppose it. He thought the Incumbered Estates Court
should be continued until it had disposed of its own ar-
rears, and objected especially to the clause which gave
power to the new tribunal to sell unincumbered estates,
which he considered a m Est dangerous principle, and one
that %could give rise to bald. He was also for retaining
the existing m ist.?r4, under the altered name of Vice-
Chancellors, instead of appointing a new staff of officers
and imposing a cheep upon the e)untry for retiring
allowances. He preferred the Court of Appeal, as sug-
gested by the hon. and learned member for Enniskillen,
to that proposed in the Government bill.
Col. DUNNE would vote against the second reading
of this bill, not because he desired the Incumbered Es-
tates Court to be continued, but because he desired that
it should determine finally and altogether at the period
fixed by the existing act. Tots was a measure put for-
ward upon the ground of expediency. He objected to
expediency as a principle of legislation, believing it to
have been the cause of most of the calamities which bad
been inflicted upon the country. It was expediency which
had driven us into the present war, aid it was expe-
diency which had occasioned all the [elut:3 and mis-
takes which bad marked its pro,grese. He objected to
the proposal for compensating the officers of the Incuin-
bared Estates Court, by transferring them to the Court
of Chancery, leaving the present officers of that court,
who were quite equal to their duties, chargeable to the
country for retiring allowances. Ile. believed the woik-
ing of the Incumbered Estates Court by forcing sales
had not only deteriorated the value of Irish property,
but had been the mein cause of those murders which
had resulted from the endeavour of the purchasers to
dispossess the tenants iu order to make the most of their
property.
Mr. BLAND would vote for the second reading. All
concurred that the jurisdiction of the Incainbered Estates
Court should not be perpetuated, and this, he thought,
was the best time for infusing its jurisdiction into the
Court of Chancery. He acquiesced in many of the objec-
tions which had been advanced, but as they were mere
matters of detail they ought not to affect the vote upon
the second reading. He was of opinion that the existing
court ought to wind up its own business, and that the
new tribunal should not be incumbered with the arrears.
Mr. FRENCH denied that the Incumbered Estates
Court was popular in Ireland, as bad been stated ty
some hon. members. He thought there was much force
in the observation of the hon. member for
that when the Incumbered Estates Court was established
the greater proportion of the business with which it Lad
to deal had already been under process of investigation
in the Court of Chancery, and so for a time the proceed-
ings of. the Incumbered Estates Court went on speedily;
but now it was clear that the business was at a dead-
lock. Still, on the whole, he was not so enainoueed of
the Incumbered Estates Court in itself as to oppose the
second reading of the bill of the Solicitor-General.
Mr. M`MAHON said this question had been treated
as if it was one which concerned lawyers and landowners
only ; but he wished to treat it as one which concerned
the people of Ireland ; and looking at it in that point of
view, he urged that everything which tended to make
land cheap, and to facilitate the transfer of land, would
be for the good of the people of Ireland, and ought to
be adopted. He could not conceive how this measure
could tend to that object. He objected to making the
Court of Chancery a permanent conveyancing establish-
ment. He contended that it would be better to adopt
measures for the removal of impediments to the transfer
of land, such as abolishing judgments against land and
entails, and establishing a county registry of the trans-
fers of land. The Appeal Court in Ireland which it
was proposed to erect under the bill he thought was an
unnecessary expense, and that as all lawyers in Ireland
practised both in law and equity, the Court of Exche-
quer Chamber would constitute the best court of appeal
from the decisions of the Court of Chancery.
Mr. MALINS said he was placed in a difficulty with
reference to the course he ought to take on the second
reading of a !sill of much of which he approved, of much
of which he disapproved. He agreed in the provision
creating two Vice-Chancellors, andthat which abolished
the Masters in Chancery, :snd that which constituted a
Court of Appeal ; Unmet he objected to that court con-
sisting of only two judges, for he thought all courts of
;tepee' should consist of three judges. There was, how-
ever' an improvement in the bill on the practice in Eng-
landof allowing appeals to go from a single judge to an-
other single judge. He objected to that system in Eng-
land, and he knew that the Solicitor-General for Eng-
land agreed with him in that respect, and also in
another objection he had to the practice which now pre-
vailed of some appeals being heard by two judges and
oth era by only one judge ; and he hoped his hon. and
teal ned friend would support that provision of the bill.
Ha (Mr. Menne) also approved of the discontinuance of
tiro Incumbered Estates Court at some time or other.
Tice other objects of the bill were, be thought, open to
oljoetion- if there was the arrear in the Incumbered
Eettetes Court which had been stated, he thought nothing
WOUI4' be more unwise, or more calculated to break down

the whole system, than the transfer of the business of that a responsible situation for which he was not fit, no one
court to the Court of Chancery. He believed that the In- thought of attacking the judge ; but the case was very
cumbered Estates Court must be retained for a time, and different if such an appointment were male by the Exe-
that the Government would have to give way on that cutive Government. The experience of the last 20 years
point. The hon. gentleman then referred to the reforms in bad fully established two principles—that officers of the
the Court of Chancery four years ago, which alone pre- courts should not be paid by fees, and that their appoint-
vented that court from being swept away, and which had ments should rest with the Executive Government, and
worked so well that the Court of Chancery was fast ap- not with the judges.
proacbing to perfection, for both causes and appeals were Mr. KENNEDY said the profession bad had great
heard with great expedition. He should be glad to see reason to complain of the inclnvenitnt situation of the
the same machinery applied to the Court of Chancery in Incumbered Estates Court. They might well complain
Ireland, and therefore it would be with reluctance he when they were called on to attend at two distant places
should oppose the second reading of this bill. Some of at one and the same time. (A. laugh.) The result had
the provisions of the bill were most extraordinary, and been to give a monopoly to some few members of the
especially those which proposed to give the patronage of profession. He objected to the transfer of the mass of
the officers of the judges' to the Lord-Lieutenant—that business transacted in these courts to the Court of Chan-
is, to the Government of the day. It had been found to eery, already overburdened. He would empower the Court
be of the greatest possible advantage in this country of Chancery to deal with the unincumbered estates, but
that the Master of the Rolls and the Vice-Chancellors would retain the powers of the existing Incumbered

should have the choice of their own officers, while it the
choice were loft in the hands of the Government fitness
would not be the only thing considered. Again, he
objected to the provision declaring that the chief clerks
should be barristers, and not solicitors, as in Eugland ;
and he was afraid that arose from the question cf pa-
tronage again. Ho also objected to the Court of Chan-
cery being made a great conveyancing machine, with-
out reference to whether estates were incumbered or
not, which would require a machinery consisting of
as many conveyancing counsel as there would be
clerks in the court. In the difficulty in which ho
was placed he could only hope that the Solicitor-Ge-
reral for Ireland would accept the suggestion which
had been made for sending this bill, as well as those
of the hon. and learned member for Enniskillen, to a se-
lect committee. Unless that course was pursued he (Mr.
Matins) must reluctantly vote against the second read-
ing of the bill.
Mr. H. HERBERT supported the second reading of
the bill,
,on the ground that it was recommended in a re-
port which was sanctioned by Sir J. Romilly, the author
of the Incumbered Estates Court Act, which had been so
beneficial to Ireland, and of which he (Mr. Herbert) had
been one of the warmest supporters. He thonght that
when the principle of the Incumbered Estates Court had
effected so much good in the cases of estates which had
been incumbered, the same advantage and simplicity of
transfer should be applied to unincumbered estates.
Mr. CAIRNS said that if the reasons which actuated
the commissioners in making the recommendations con-
tained in the report were not capable of being made clear
and satisfactory to the members of the house generally,
there was no reason why they should commend them-
selves to the house, or why the house should adopt the
views which the commissioners took of the question.
The commissioners began 'by endeavouring to procure
every kind of information with regard to the matters on
which they had to form an opinion. After taking that
evidence the ammissioners called a meeting here, at
which they had the assistance of SirJ. Romilly, to whom
the Inoumbered Estates Court in a great measure owed
its existence, of Mr.Longfield, and Mr. Blackburn, who
perhaps was more conversant with matters pertaining to
the improvement of Ireland than any man living. They
all agreed that the Membered Estates Court did infinite
benefit. (Hear.) It was made quite clear to them that
landlords obtained a better market for their land through
the instrumentality of that court than they could else-
where. The commissioners therefore came to the con-
clusion that the court could not be abolished, but that,
on the contrary, it was necessary for the welfare of Ire-
land, and expedient for Great Britain at large, that it
should be continued. But they did not stop there, for
they had to consider whether its powers should not be
extended, because it was shown to them that theueh the
Incurnberecl Estates Court could do everything with re-
gard to the sale, there were other matters which were
not within the jurisdiction of the court, and which it was
necessary to send to the Court of Chancery or a court of
common law for adjudication. They also found that the
Incumbered E-tates Court carried on its business in an
obscure street iu Dublin, where the suitors could not
have that complete professional aid which they might
desire. They therefore recommended that the situation
of the court should be removed. They were next told
by the Incumbered Estates Commissioners themselves
that their staff was insufficient, and therefore it would
be necessary to add considerably to the staff of the court.
Having, then, come to the conclusion that the court was
to be retained, that a new situation and premises were
to be provided, that an increased staff was to be found,
all of which would require legislation and expenditure,
they had next to consider ;his further question, why the
pewees of the court should not be extended to the sale of
unincumbered as well as toineurnbered estates. The corn-
plaints on this head reachel the commissioners from vari-
ous parts and in the most etnnistakeable manner. His
hon. and learned friend the member for Enniskillen
challenged any to prove that estates had been incum-
bered with fictitious incunbrances for the purpose of
having them sold in the 'membered Estates Court. Of
course any person who cid so would not be candid
enough to tell it, or to give the circumstances of the
case, but there was plenty of evidence from professional
men to show that such thirgs had been done. If it were
material no doubt thonatnee and circumstances could be
obtained; but even if no such cases existed, there was no
reason for not extending the powers of the court to unin-
cutnbered estates, if it was right in itself. He would
put the following case :—iu estate worth 100,000/ ,
which was incumbered to one-half its value, was sold,
and the court, after distributing the 50,0001. to the in-
cumbrancers, ascertained the title of the owner, and
gave him the other 50,0101., and there the mat' er
ended. Why should not tie court have the power of
dealing with an anincumbe7ed estate worth 100,000/ as
it dealt with the 50,0001. which remained alter the vale
of the incumbered estate worth also 100,0001. (dear,
hear.) That was the whole question. Supposing they
gave these extended powers t ) the :Encumbered Estates
Court, and brought it by the side of the Court of Chan
eery, the result wou'd be that they would have two
Courts of Chancery—the Court of Chancery with the
powers of the Incumbered Estates Court, and the In-
cumbered Estates Court with all the powers of the Court
of Chancery. (Hear, hear.) There was no necessity
for two courts of the same kind ; and the whole questi el
was, whether they could male the Court of Ctisncery
as cheap and as expeditious AS. the Incumbered Estates
Court. He believed it could be so made. He therefore
would vote for the second read ng of the bill. Two of the
objections made to that principle he had already answered.
With regard to the third, which was made by the hon.
member fur Horsham, namely, that this bill went on
the principle of an exceptional legislation ter Ireland,
which he deprecated, whatever value might be in that
objection, it was now too late, for it should hare been
made when the Incumbered Estates Court was pro-
posed. But whatever fairness there might be in this ob•
jection, coming from the hon. member for Horsham, it
was hardly fair in the mouth of his hon. and learned
friend the member for Enniskillen, who had himself a bill
on the table which went on the principle of exceptional
legislation for Ireland. Ike would now say a few words
with regard to the details of the bill. With regard to the
amount of arrears in the Incumbered Estates Court, it
was difficult to know how to deal with that question, and
it deserved the consideration of a committee of the house.
He also thought that some means should be pointed out
in the bill providing for the existing staff of the court. It
was the duty of the house to see that the transfer of the
staff, if it should take place, should bo effected in the
most judicious manner. With regard to the question of
appeal, the same objection which was taken by his hon.
and learned friend might be taken to the appeal which
existed in England, where there was an appeal from
the Vice-Chancellor to the Lord Chancellor and to the
Lord Justices, who were generally but two in number,
and therefore there was a possibility of one judge having
an opinion opposite to that of his brother judge. The
next question, though one of detail, was the most impor-
tant and transcendent of al, viz., that which had refer-
ence to the appointment of the chief clerks under the
new judges. It was most important, in his opinion, that
the judges who wore to be responsible for the working
of the court should have the appointment of the chief
clerks. That was the recommendation of the commis-
sioners, and it was contained in the hill of last year. In
the present bill, howevsr, theapeointment was placed in
the hands of the Lord Lieutenant. He trusted that the
Government would not press this part of their measure,
but if they did he hoped it would be rejected by the
house. (Hear.) The qualifications laid down in the
bill for the office of Vice-Chancellor would exclude
Mr. Hargrave, one of the judges of the Incumbered
Estates Court, who was said to have performed
his duties in the must satisfactory manner. (Hear,
hear.) He thought the bill should be altered in this re-
spect also. These matters of detail were important, and
he did not think they could he satisfactorily considered
in a committee of the whole house. During the discus-
sion, different reasons had been assigned for disagreeing
with several parts of the bill, and he thought that these
several opinions should be represented on a select corn-
mittee, with the view, if possible, of reconciling them.
Mr. G. M. BUTT said the detaile'of the bill required
great alteration in his opinion ; but as he agreed in its
principle, he should vote for the second reading. He
hoped it would be allowed to go to a select committee,
along with Mr. Whiteside's bills, which contained many
provisions that might be advantageously incorporated
with the bill. This course would in reality be a saving
of time ; fir with the numerous objections raised to the
bill before the house, it must undergo considerable al-
teration before it could pass. In one important parti-
cular the recommendaticn of the commission had not
been followed. :They recommended that the chief clerks
and others should be appointed by the judges, and
without this, it was imposiible for the system to work
well. This bill proposed to give these appointments
to the Lord-Lieutenant. He agreed with the propriety
of extending the provisions of the Incumbered Estates
Court to estates not incumbered ; but great care was
necessary in making this extension of jurisdiction. It
would be a great boon, both to the people of Ireland and
of England, to establish some means of giving a Parlia-
mentary title to property ; but ho did not think the pro-
visions of this bill would suffice for the purpose. That
was another reason why he wished the bill to be referred
to a select committee.
Sir E. PERRY said this bill related to a subject with
which be had been brought much into contact, the pro-
per formation of a jurisdiction which should dispense jus-
tice in a cheap and summary manner. He was convinced
that the principle of the bill, the transfer of the jurisdiction
of the Incumbered Estates Court to the Court of Chancery
in Ireland, was a sound one. Objection had been taken tol
the way in which the patronage was proposed to be dis-
posed. From his experience in dispensing judicial pa-
tronage, which was great, be could say that theie was no
such blot on our judicial system as the attribution of that
patronage to the occupants of the bench. This led to the
mischievous creation of fees, and the unwillingness of the
judges to interfere with the officers appointed by them-
selves. There were numerous instances in India of im-
proper appointments, being made by the judges. He
thought it one of the best provisions of the bill to take
these appointments from the judges, and give them to
the executive government. If a judge made an improper
appointment—say his own son, a boy of 21 perhaps--to

Estates Court with regard to incumbered 'estates. Every
argument of the Solicitor-General for Ireland had in
reality gine in favour of the continuance of the Incum-
bared Estates Court. Unless the Government would con-
sent to these bills going before a select committee, he
should oppose the second reading.
Mr. T. O'BBIEN said he should support the second
reading of the bill, believing that the Incutnbered Estates
Court bad worked well, and required to be extended in
its operation. If the bills were referred to a select com-
mittee they would be delayed till the end of the session,
and then probably abandoned. The great object was to
give a Parliamentary title to persons purchasing pro-
perty ; and the difference between this bill and that of
Mr. Whiteside was merely one of detail. It would be
easy to incorporate the valuable provisions of the two
bills in one, when the house went into committee upon
them.

Mr. J. D. FITZGERALD said he found there were
many opponents to the bill ; but, as their opposition
rested on totally different grounds, one might be set off
against the other. The arguments of the hon. and
learned member for Enniskillen, might be set off against
those of the hoe, member for Horsham, and so of the
others On one point the house had agreed with a soli-
tary exception, that there should be a continuance of the
system of the Incumbered Estates Court, the exception
being the hon. member for Portarlington (Colonel
Dunne). The solitary objector to the principle of the
Incumbered Estates Court was the hon. and gallant
gentleman opposite (Colonel Dunne), who had certainly
been most consistent in his apposition. Indeed he told
the house that all the murders which had taken place in
Ireland had been caused by the commission. (Laughter.)
Colonel DUNNE demurred to this account of his ob-
servations.
Mr. FITZGERALD--At all events, to judge from
the hon. and gallant gentleman's speech, the way in
which he would determine the existence of the court
would be by hanging the three commissioners. (Laughter.)
The most popular objection to the bill, however, was the
provision it proposed to make for transferring the juris-
diction of the court to the Court of Chancery. Now,svhee
Sir J. Romilly (then the Solicitor-General) introduced
the measure in 1849 it was put forth as an experiment.
The original bill being one for three years expired in
1852 ; and in the March of that year, Lord Derby, who
was then in office and who had been asked in another
plaoe what were his intentions with respect to the court,
stated that the Lord Chancellor for Ireland was direct-
ieg his attention to the simplification of the procedure in
Chancery, with a view to see whether it might not have
the functions of ti e Incumbered Estates Court engrafted
upon it. In the raise year the right hon. gentleman
(M:r. Napier) expressed an opinion that the true mode
of reformiug the Incumbered Estates Court would be to
reform the Court of Chancery, and to transfer the juris-
diction to it. A similar opinion was expressed by many
other gentlemen of great authority. At that time the
procedure in Chancery was by bill and answer. The court
required every person, however remotely interested, to
be made a party to each suit : the system of master., as
well as that of charge and discharge, were in force, and,
in a word, there was such a long tissue of circumstances
leading to delay that a suit might be considered as almost
interminable. In 1849, then, the Court of Chancery was
not able to do the work of the Incumbered Estates Court,
for when the final decree vas made the litigation had
only just commenced. Thus, in 1502, Lord Redesdale
gave judgment it, a case of property which was not finally
sold till 1852. (Hear.) But since 1849 how great had
been the change. The Court of Chancery had, in the
first place, been eased by the Incumbered Estates Court,
which had disposed eight or nine hundred cantos in
which the Court of Chancery itself could not have so'd
the property. In the following year, however, Sir J.
Romilly introduced a large measure of Chancery reform.
The system of bid and answer was replaced by the easy
and expeditious mode of petition and affidavit. The re-
sult had beeu that from the passing of the act in 1850 to
the end of last year the court had disposed of no fewer
than 6SI causes, every one of which had been begun and
ended bef 're the Lord Cha a eller hinas, IF. Besides those,
176 causes bad been disposed of under the old system et
bill and answer. It would still further illustrate the
improvement if he (the 'hon. gentleman) were to state
the average period of the first thirty causes which had
been heard under the new system in Trinity Term, 1854.
Of those 30 cases 10 hadbeen begun and disposed of within
3 months, 15 within 5 months, and 24 within 10 months,
the rernainh g 6 having occupied a longer period. Now
compere this with what had been the case with the 176
(nu:es with respset to which the old procedure bad not been
deearted fratu. Of those cans ,s 12 hail been disposed of in
Trinity Term, 1854, and in these the suits had averaged a
length of seven years and a half, and some of them had
lasted 13 or 14 years each. (Hear.) The Government
n rw prop sod to r xt!nd the reform still further. They
pr p .set to abolish rho system of nasters in Chancery
—(hear) —and to make it imperative upon the judge who
hail a cause in charge never to let it pass from under his
control ; but if he etepl yal his chief clerk, it should be
under his own eye. (Cheers.) They proposed to put
an end t" all technicalities a,,d to all objections arising
from want of parties to the suit, from the death of sui-
tors an I everything of that kind. In short, if the bill
were carried, he would undertake is say that the Irish
Court of Chancery would be the cheapest, the simplest,
and the most expeditious tribunal in the land. Indeed,
in its present ceedition, they might get a right decided
in it more rapidly and at less expense than they could
in a court of common law. They need net, therefore,
hesitate to entrust it. when yet further reformed, with
the jurisdiction of the Incumbered Estates Court. (Hear,
hear.) He (the lion. gentleman) had just received a
letter from the Lord Chancellor of Ireland, stating that
by the conclusion date term both he and the Master of
the Rolls would have cleared off all their arrears. (Hear,
hear.) It was sometimes asked why an unincumbered
proprietor should net be placed in the same position as
the incernberetl one? He (Mr. Fitzgerald) could see no
reason why he should not, and he proposed, therefore, in
conformity with the weightiest possible authorities, both
in the profession and out of it, to give the proprietors of
non-incumbered property exactly the same privileges as
had been accorded to suitors in the Incumbered Estates
Court. The real question was, in truth, not whether
that court should be made perpetual, but whether they
should have two Courts of Chancery. (Hear.) The
censideratiens he had just pointed out to the house
were those which had influenced the commissioners
in coming to the conclusion that, although tho sys-
tem should be continued, it would he extremely injuri-
ous to the public interest that a separate tribunal should
be kept up instead of the jurisdiction being transferred
to one of the established courts. The hon. and learned
member for Enniskillen bad spoken of the job, and the
gross job, to be perpetrated by the bid. Tee clause he
characterised as the biggest job that hail ever come be-
fore the house was that which provided the chief clerks
should be appointed by the executive instead of by the
judges. This was a departure from the bill of last year,
but the obj et was to pro oire as efficient a staff as pos-
sible to secure the proper working of the bill. It de-
prived the masters, examiners, and all the officials of the
Incumbered Estates Court of their offices, and the clause
would enable the executive to appoint them to the new
situations to be created. Any appointment made by the
executive would be euhject to the control of Parliament,
but a judge was responsible to no person for any ap•
pointment made by him. The hon. and leaned member
for Enniskillen had referred to the 19th clause, which
provides that the clerks shall be ei iher barristers, soli-
citors, or persons who have been masters' examiners, or
masters, or secretary of the Incumbered Estates Court ;
he (Mr. Fitzgerald) confessed that he was alone respon-
sible for that clause. The officers of the Incumbered
Estates Court had given proof of their efficiency, and he
he wished, therefore, to make them eligible for the new
offices. The hon. and learned member for Enniskillen
said the objeat was to provide for a particular indivi-
dual ; such was not the case ; he could not even imagine
who was the person referred to. The hon. and learned
member said the bill was impracticable ; it proposed to
transfer to the Court of Chancery the whole mass of busi-
ness of the Incumbered Estates Court, and the result
must he that the whole would get clogged up. There was,
indeed, a large accumulation of business in the court of
the commissioners, but the delay was in many instances
owing to the masters themselves ; and he felt confident that
two vice-chancellors, starting with an efficient staff, would
soon clear it off. In point of fact the business was now
done by two, as the third commissioner, Baron Richards,
only sat in the full court. A complaint was made that he
had not consulted the Master of the Reds in reference to
this measure. He could only Say that he sent his lordship
a copy of the hill last July, but from that time he had
not received any communication from him. One officer
had suggested that his salary should be raised, but he
had not received a single suggestion for the public good
from any quarter. He was responsible for the frame the
bill had assumed ; but in all its principles, and in all its
details, with two exception', it was founded on the re-
commendations of the a nnnaissioners. He had volunteered
to prepare a bill founded on these recommendations, and
his only object bad been to introduce one that would
tend to secure the public benefit. He was ready to receive
suecestiouit as to the details, and would have no objec-
tion to refer the bill to a select committee. He would not
consent, however, that it should be referred along with
the five bills of the hon. and learned member for Ennis-
killen. They were se diametrically opposite that, if re-
ferred to one committee, none of them would ever
emerge. The hen. and learned member for Enniskillen,
in his speech on the first reading, bad stated that the
books and papers of the Incumbered Estates Court were
in ,the greatest confusion. He (Mr. Fitzgerald) had re-
ceived letters from the accountant-general and the secre-
tary distinctly denying that assertion.
Mr. NAPIER said it was impossible for him to con-
sent to the second reading of this bill, if the Government
refused to allow the bills of the hon. and learned member
for Enniskillen to go to a select committee. The object
of all the bills was the same ; it was to secure facility of
transfer and security of title iii the sale of estates, and the
best course for the house to adopt would be to refer all the
bills to one and the same select committee. At all events,
if the house pwed•this bill its present shape, the whole
' question of Chancery and Incumbered Fatales Refonn

in Ireland would be brought to a complete deadlock.
Afzer a few words front Mr. BENTINCK,
Mr. DISRAELI said he thosight the hon. and learned
Solicitor-General was pursuing an ungracious and unne-
cessary course in refusing t• allow the bills of the hon.
and learned member for Eeniskillen to be referred to a
select committee. It was proposed that the hon. and
learned member for Enniskillen should be a member of
the select committee to which this bill was to be referred;
and, of course, if he so thought fit, the hon. and learned
member could contest every clause of the bill in com-
mittee. Now, would it not save time, and promote the
object in view, if all the bills were referred to the same
committee ? However, the question now was, should
they read the bill a second time, with a view to referring
it to a select committee ? Ho saw no objection to that
course ; and he hoped, therefore, the house would not he
put to the trouble of a division.
Mr. S. FITZGERALD would not divide if he could
be convinced that the select committee, to whom the bill
was to be referred, would have power to extend the
period for the existence of the Incumbered Estates Court.
The SPEAKER said the bill contained a clause con-
tinuing the Incuinbered E,tatesCourt for a limited time,
and it would of course be competent for the committee to
extend the date.
The amendment was then withdrawn, when the bill
was read a second time, and ordered to be referred to a
select committee.
. JURIES (IRELAND) BILL.
On the order for the second reading of this bill,
Mr. FITZGERALD (Solicitor-General for Ireland)
said if there was any objection to the second reading of
this bill, be should postpone it for a fortnight. Other-
wise he should propose to read it now a second time,
and then refer it to a select committee.
Mr. WHITESIDE said the principle of the bill was
precisely the same as that of a bill which he introduced
last session, but which the Government opposed.
Mr. FITZGERALD denied the statement of the bon.
and learned member. This was simply a Consolidation
Bill of the Jury Laws of Ireland, and the idea of it had
in no way been borrowed from the source suggested.
Mr. NAPIER said he should decidedly object to re-
fer the bill to a select committee.
The second reading was then put off for a fortnight.
DRAINAGE ADVANCE Aar AMENDMENT
BILL.
On the motion for the second reading of this bill,
Col. DUN NE asked what was the object of the bill 1
Mr. WILSON said it was merely to simplify the
mode of transacting business between the Drainage Com-
missioners and the Treasury.
The bill was then read a second time.
TURNPIKE TRUSTS AR RANGEMENT BILL.
This bill was read a second time.
COAMONS INCLOSURE BILL.
This bill was read a second time.
SUPPLY.
The report of the committee of supply was brought up.
Upon the motion that it be agreed to, in reply to Mr.
WILLIAMS,
Mr. WILSON admitted that the customs and inland
revenue estimates (lid not include the whole of the su-
perannuation charges. He trusted that the Government
would, with the aid of the house, be enabled, in a short
time, to put the matter on a more satisfactory footing.
CH ARITABLE USES BILL.
The house went into committee on this bill.
In reply to Mr. WALPOLE,
Mr. ATHERTON said the bill in no wise dispensed
with the existing guards against fraud, applicable under
the existing law, to grants which were not for full value.
The bill then passed through committee.
ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSION (ENGLAND).
Sir G. GREY moved for a select committee to inquire
into the present constitution of the Ecclesiastical Com-
mission for England ; into the operation of the act 13
and 14 Vic., c. i 4. int;tuled, An Act to amend the Acts
relating to that Commission, and of the act 14 and 15
Vic., c. 104, intituled An Act to facilitate the Manage-.
ment and Improvement of Episcopal and Capitular
Estates in England ; and into the expediency of further
continuing the last act, and of consolidating the Church
Building Commission with the Ecclesiastical Commission.
It was provided by the first of those acts that the Eccle-
siastical Commiesioners should not act sinless two mem-
bers of t s Church Estates Commission were present.
The effect of this was to shift the power to the smaller
body, known as the Church Estates Commissioners,
having only a general supervision to the Ecclesiastical
Commissioners. The second act conferred larger powers
on the Church Estate Commissioners, but it would expire
this year ; and he desired that a committee should re-
port to the house upon the desirability of its continuance.
Its main object was to facilitate the enfranchisement of
copyhold and other property of a similar nature belong-
ing t ) the church. He thought it would be desirable to
renew the act, but some alterations would in his opinion
be requisite. Another question for the committee to
consider would be whether the Church Building Com-
mission ought not to be incorporated with the Church
Estate Commission.
The Marquis of BLANDFORD said that these acts
deserred most serious attention, as they had introduced
an entirely new p ieciple into our church polity, at least
so far as concerned the temporalities of the establish-
meet. He considered that it was the duty of Govern-
ment to put so impor ant a matter on a clear and defi-
nite footing.
Mr. WALPOLE gave his entire concurrence to the
proposal made by Sir G. Grey. It was most desirable
to consolidate and settle the law on this important
matter.
Mr. HADFIELD thought that there were so many
of these acts and commissiens that they stood in each
other's way. It was time that the country should under-
stand what these acts were, and how the law really stood.
Mr. MOWBRAY expressed his satisfaction at the
course which the Government intended to pursue. He
thanked the right hon. gentleman (Sir G. Grey) for thus
redeeming the promise which he made in the last ees.
sion of Parliament.
The resolution was then agreed to.
FORMATION 01? PARISHES BILL.
The following members were -nominated as the select
c munittee on this bill :—The Marquis of Blandford, Vis-
count Ebrington, Mr. Dyne, Mr. E. Egerton, Mr. G.
Butt, Mr. Gladstone. Mr. Massey, Mr. Mowbray, Mr.
Heallatn, Mr. S. Herbert, Sir S. Northcote, Mr. Dun-
lop, Lord J. Manners, and Mr. Pellatt. Five to be the
quorum ; power to send for persons, napers, and records.
PUBLIC PROSECUTORS BILL.
The following members were nominated as the select
committee on this hill :—Mr. J. 'G. Phillimore, Mr.
Napier, the Lord Advocate, Mr. Miles, Mr. Phillips,
Mr. Attorney-Genera', Mr. SeliCitor-General for Ire-
land, Mr. Walpole, Mr. W. Ewart, Lord Stanley, and
Mr. Watson.