The Sun.
London, England, 1856-04-01 00:00:00

THE SUN, LO.P4 DON, T CIES D_A__Y if_Sr 14.-,ti----AP-R4L

Mr. CRAWFORD, in reference to the increase proposed manent. As to the Tithe Commission, it was necessary to
to be made in the office, wished to know whether any wind up the operations of that commission, which we, in
commission had been appointed to inquire into the matter, posles.siou of an immense mass of documents to which con-
and whether any report would bs laid upon the table of stant reference was necessary.
the house? Mr. WALPOLE asked for an explanation of an item of
Mr. WILSON said that, from his experience in the 1,8001. chergod on this account.
Treasury, he was enabled to say that no office was better . Mr. WILSON said that it arose from the expenses of an
conducted than that under review. action which it had been necessary to institute.
Mr. WILLIAMS called attention to the expenses of the i After some further observations from Mr. W. WILLIAMS,
Queen's plates, and expressed an opinion that the house 1 the vote was agreed to.
should not be salted upon to pay for these adjuncts to I The next vote, 11,7101. for enclosure, drainage, and
horse-racing. • 1 other expenses under the Enclosure Act, was agreed to,
Mr. WISE said that there was no charge upon the civil ' after a protest from Mr. W. WILLIAMS, who contended
estimates for such things in this country, where they were i that theseexpenees wore strictly of a private nature.
paid out of the Queen's private purse. Ho did not under- ' The following votes were then agreed to :
stand why the satue principle should not be applied to 38,2311. for salaries in the General Registry-office.
Ireland or Scotland. 3,33e1. for the General Registry-office in Dublin.
The vote was agreed to. 6,665/. for the General Registry-office in Edinburgh.
On the vote of d,131/. for officers attending the house- 13,8801. for the Natienal Debt-office.
ho d of the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, 2,810. for the Pablic Works Loan Commission.
Mr. WILLIAMS said he could not conceive what was 1,5701. for the West India Islands Loan Relief Commie-
the use of these officers. The Lord-Lieutenant was a pri- sion.
vote gentleman, and it very seldom occurred that he was a 1,3101. for the office of Commissioner in Lunacy, after
military man. He found that two of the persons charged some objections urged by Mr. WILLIAMS.
for were termed " gentlemen at large," who received The vote was agreed to.
2571. 17s. 4d. He should like to know what were their 9811. was voted for defraying the expenses of the cora-
duties. (Hear, hear.) Then there was the master of the mission of roads iu South 'Wales.
horse ; could anything be more farcical ?To maintain the 1,4051. was voted for the Registrar of Friendly Societies.
dignity of royalty in this country was necessary, but to 32,0001. for foreign and other secret services.
adopt the seine system in reference to the mock royalty in 456,2:5/. was asked for ou account of printing and
Ireland was in the highest degree absurd. Then there was stationery.
a Court Herald. His salary was certainly small, for he Mr. WALPOLE called attention to this sum. This vote
received lees every year than his clothing amounted to. had been increased since last year by 40,000/., and he
(A laugh.) , alluded- to the inquiry of the committee appointed last
Mr. i3LACKBURN thought it was useless to discuss session with reference to the printing for that house. Ho
such details. The office ought to be abolished altogether. said that with regard to toe printing of the appendices to
The vote was agreed to. the reports presented to the house, and which cost a large
On the 'rota of 15,161/. for the Secretary of State's offices stern, nut one hon. member, he ventured to state, ever read
in Dublin and London, . them. He thought, however, that in many instances the
Mr. WILLIAMS wished to know why the salary of the appendices should be printed, but in accordance with the
Lord-Lienteuant was not included in the estimate.:? In recommendation of the committee, viz., that the printing
former years it was so; and he saw no reason why it should appendices to commissions and reports should be under
now be omitted. The salary of the Lord-Lieutenant used some controlling power. It was necessary that some check
to be 7,0001. a year, but now it was reduced to 4,0001. should be put on this expenditure
Mr. WILSON said it was not so. - The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER concurred
Mr. WILLIAMS assured the hon. gentleman that if he in the necessity of a cheek being put on this expenditure,
went back 15 or 16 years he would find that he was per- which pow amounted to the income of a petty German
tectly accurate in his statement. state, but considered it would be a delicate, thing to inter-
The following votes were agreed to with scarcely any fete with commissions and committees, and say what do-
discussion : currents should be inserted in their reports. An increase
6,2911. for the office of the paymaster of the Civil Ser- in the expense had ooccut red this year in consequence of
vice in Ireland. the statistical accounts that had been required by the house
2,5551. for the inspectors of lunatic asylums in Ireland. relative to the war.
22,516/• for the inspectors of the Board.of Public Works Mr. WALPOLE instanced the excess to which the print-
in Ireland. ing was carried by the production of volumes that probably
On the vote of 30,,161/. for the office of the Commissioner were never read. In one department—that of the Board
of Public Works in Ireland, of Health—he believed there were .40,00 e large volumes
Mr. BOWYER said he wished to ask a question of very that had been printed, but never distributed. (Hear.)
considerable importance. It would be remembered that Mr. CRA.WFORD thought more di-cretion should be
when the right hon. gentleman the member for Bucking- exercised in printing papers, &c., for that house. When
hamshire (Mr. Disraeli) held office as Chancellor of the matters of importance were printed, they soon were out
Exchequer, he said, on bringing forward his budget, that of print, and teat was time case with reference to the Kars
Government would take into consideration a general re- pipers that had recently been printed. The .lern.ind that
form of public accounts. Soon after that the Government had been made by the public for them had been so great
with which the right hon. gentleman was connected re- that he believed it was impossible now for hon. members
signed office, and the house bad heard no more of that int- or the public to get a copy, whilst others, not so interest-
portent subject. The house would remember that so far ing, remained on hand.
back as 1831 this subject of public accounts was taken into Mr. V. SMITH said that, in order to check this expen-
consideration by the Government. It had been considered diture, they should awpoiut a printing tribunal, whose de-
long before that time, but in 1831 it was fully gone into cision in all cases should be biudiug. The fault rested in
by commissioners, of whom Dr.. Bowring was at the head. a great measure with hon. members moving for pipers to
The commissioners recommended many important mea- .be printed that were more of a private than a public (la-
sures, the chief of which was a perfect uniformity in the ractcr.
method of keeping the public accounts, and the introduc- Mr. HENLEY said that not above one-fourth of the
tion of the commercial eystena of double entry. With re- amount asked for was pecess try for the printing of that
Bard to the audit-office, he believed that there had been house. The Army and the Admiralty took more than
no return of business since 5847, when it was two years 100,0001. of the amount. He was desirous of reducing the
in arresr. The great evil that -prevailed in the audit- large expenditure, but he did roe, wish thereby t' iuterft re
with the privilege of hon. members, and say what ehotod
office was clearly pointed out by the commissioners. It
was thus that the accounts were brought into the or should not be printed.
audit in the form of the office where they were Mr. WILSON defended time vote, and expki ted that a
made up, and afterwards they had to be put into the form great portion of the amount charged for the Ordnance was
required by the Exchequer, a coarse which it sometimes not stationery, but included a large amount for cartridge
took, a couple of months to accomplish. Compulsory powers paper necessary on account of the war. He also referred
should be given to the audit-office to secure uniformity of to other details in which the requirements of the war had
system, and then the grave delays now complained of caused an increase of expenditure.
would be avoided. He should like to know whether the Mr. DISRAELI said he was averse to checking the pri-
Government had any intention of following out the helix.-- vilege of the house ire printing evidence and documents in
tent promise made by the right hon. gentleman the member which commissions and eounidetees had reported. Some-
for Buckinghamshire when he held office ? thing had been said of not printing the appendices to these
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the reports, but lie thought these reports would not be so corn-
subject had recently engaged hie attention, and if it should plete as they should be without them. He was of opinion
be in his power he should lay the result before the house the house should have the documents on which reports
at an early period, were made, and which:illustrated evidence, and considered
Mr. MA CARTNEY had heard that some of the clerks that hon. members often found them of great assistance to
had been transferred from the audit to the War-office, and thorn in endeavouring to arrive at a proper conclusion on
important questions. The charge of 100,00 /. for the priet-
a report was in circulation that the war accounts were to
be audited by the War Department. ing he thought small for the benefits obtained, and was
Mr. WILSON said it was true that clerks had been trans- surprised at the house cavilling at such a small auto. It
was of the greatest importeece the house should have full
ferred as stated, and that the 'War-office would audit its
own accounts. Thera was a Treasury minute to that effect.. documentary evidence. The papers were not published
Mr. MA.CAR rN EY intimated that to-morrow he suould merely for lion nienraers, but rur the country generally,
move that it be laid upon the table of the house. and were necessary for the good governmeut of the eouu-
Mr. WILSON would have no objection to its production, try. He deprecated such an important question being
Mr. WILLIAMS thought the course which hail been compared to the revenues of a German prince as a reas( n
why it should be reduced.. He supported motions fur just
pursued in reference to this matter was not commendable.
economy, and iu his opinion there was not a vote brought
He was strongly of opinion that the war accounts should
before the house that was of more advaetage to the public
go to the audit-office, and he hoped that whatever the °pis
uion of the Treasury might be, the house would never service than that for printing, for it was by the Means they
had established to obtain information that gave their elect-
sanction an opposite principle. If there was any security
BMus so Lunch importance, and a Lich ultimately hal an
at all in reference to the dispesal of the national funds, it
was clearly through the audit-office. The house had passed influence on the prosperity of the country.
the War-office vote, which he would have opposed if he Mr. WALPOLE having explained,
hail known of the fact which had just been elicited, and Mr. DISRAELI said that the chairman of committees
virtually had the power of checking the. expenditure, by
which certainly took him very much by surprise. It was
deciding that appeadces should not be printed if too velu-
m most improper thing to allow any public department to
, urinous, and were not consilerei essential to thereport.
audit its own accounts. He trusted that the commissioners
salaries would be from time to time subjected to the revi-
After some remarks from Mr, HENLEY kohl Mr. A. PEL-
on of that house. - LATT, the latter of whom called attentiou to the printing
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER explained of specificetions of petents, F
.s
that the expenses in question were chiefly incurred in the Mr WILSON said thet these sp cifica ions were printed
under an act of Parliament passed within the last three
colonies. The auditors were altogether independent of the
offices audited. There had been a transfer of audit from years, and sold at it shillieg each. Many applications had
ireen made f• ir them from all parts of the country.
the Audit-office to the 'War-office, by a Treasury minute,
which ho would lay on the tat.le. If the office which made Mr. A. PELLATT asked how much money had been
the expenditure likewise audited the account, the system
received for
would be liable to great abuse. It had been understood Mr. WlLSONthese specifications?
said he could not then state the amount,
that the Commissioners of Audit should hold their offices but a retetrn could be furnished if desired.
oa the same tenure as the judges—not subject to annual Mr. WILLIAMS suggested that in future the amounts
votes of Parliament. This was an arrah ement of long received or referral to should be printed in the estimates.g
T
standing, and not introduced ay any aristocratic principle he vote was ultimately agreed to.
o:- patronage.
11,e410/. was voted for the pesteges of the several pub-
Mr. HENLEY could not see any fair reason why the lie dep e-tments,
business of audit should be taken from the proper tribunal 26,C411. was voted for the payment of the salaries of
' and transferred to a body which, in fact, constitutee no the ortieere of her Majesty's Treasury.
2511,0J0/. was voted to defrey the charges of prosecutions
tribunal at all, handing it, in fact, to the very parties who
might have been guilt of mismanagement. He trusted at quarter sessions, originally peal out of the county rates.
y
the Treasury minute v oda set all right. 1,100/. was voted for the Crown-oil-ice (Chancery).
Mr. WILLI AIMS hoped that the army expenditure 2,053/. for the Cr ,wn-office (Queen's Bench.)
would be audited by the Audit-office, and nowhere else, 16,3101' Snetitis, &c•
and wished to have an exact intatection to that effect. 6,4161., Registrar of the Admiralty.
Lord PALMERSTON said that the transfer of the audit 8,215/ , Theolveut Debtors' Court.
, e,01., Treaeur ere of County Courts.
i
had evidently been misunderstood. It was not the general 13
ee-mv expenditure which. was transferred to the War-office, 3,6151., Queen's Prison, 102.303/ , Metropolitan Police.
but -the regimented expense. These accounts were reit-
,
tiered to the paymaster for audit. They comprised large 3 312/ ,Lord Advocate and Solicitor General (Scotland).
sums, involving a multitude of (Nails, which made it int-
17,5511", Court of Session (ecotland).
possible for their accounts to be audited by the Audit-
9,5e81., Court of Justiciary (Scotland).office. The officers there did not understand their details, 6,4001., Criminal prosecutions (Seotlerni).
and were quite incompetent to such a duty. The principle 1,41 1 , Reuternbraucer ire Exchequer (Scotland).
oa which their accounts were made out was not a new (..110. 57 OM., Sheriffs and Stewards (Scotland).
They were not the general accounts of the War Depart-
12, 11371., Procurators Fiseal .
01/., Sheriffs' Clerks (Scotland).
went, but accounts of the manner in which money. was ex-
12,52,3001., Solicitor of the Crown (Scotland).
pended which had been issued for regimental services.
12,219/e, General'Register house (E iinburgh).
The form of audit in the Audit-office was of a different
1,124/. Commissar) Clerk (Edinburgh).
kind, and not applicable to these expenses.
51,7 di, Criminal prosecutions (Ireland).
Mr. HENLEY wished to know what was the exact ac- 1,2941.,. Court of Chancery (Ireland). ' '
counts withdrawn from the Audit-office, and how it was 1,3381:, Court oteQueetras Bench (Ireland).
that the Audit-office attempted these duties heretofore? 1,12.11.; Court of Common Pleas (Ireland).
Lord PALMERSTON explained that his observation 1,5801., Court of Exchequer (Ireland).
only applied to what had been said in respect of having all 2001 Taxing O'ficere (Ireland)
the army accounts audited by the Audit-office.- The great
bulk of the regimental accounts would continue to be 5 237/ Reerstrare to Judges' (Ireland).
audited as they had been hitherto audited—at the Wur- 1;7662 ” Registration-.
Of Juegruents (Ireland).
3001., .6
Court of Delegates (Ireland).
office. 3 '164/ , Insolvent Debtor. Court (Ireland).
Colonel DUNNE wishe Ito know if the contracts and '‘ '
31 "56°0011;1'.,Pmeleitcreop 0 t apool
jelle:ibplianb.lin.
2;7/ Court of Errors (Ireland)•
other expenses, such as those of the Land Transport Corps, '' • Justices • ''
were to be submitted to a board under the control of the
639,100'. Constabulary (frelsnd).
Minister of War, or to the Audit-office, under the control
1,5321., Forte Courts, Meestrelsea, 'Dablin.
.of Parliament ? As to the regimental expenses, there was
no doubt about them ; but he wished to know what wes
-.The next vote being one for the salaries of prison in-
spectors,
the practice with regard to the general army expenditure,
in which there had been so much waste? ' Mr, HENLEY objected to proceed with it at that late
Mr. WILSON said that the effect of the clans was that hour, on the ground that it roust give risetto much discus-
the final audit was still to remain at the audit beard, but
the details were tem bo examined at the Wer-office. Sir GEORGE GREY coneentel that , the Cheirtnen
Mr. HENLEY wished to know distinctly if the accounts shoild report progress. '
were alt. to go before the au lit board or not?, Nearly one- Mi. WALPOL, e E
eeil that he presumed this' vote would
fourth of the staff of the Audit-office was now taken away, be taken in corronittee of rimipply on Friday night; and as
just at the time. Wheri a strict audit was most wanted, and uoticerff a motion On this subjedt El'iali'eeir given, bethought
thus the Audit-office would he rendered unable to do its it would be desiteside that Governtnetif shouldgate whether
business. He thought that the house was entieledlo further • they had introdueed or intended to introduce any Modifies-
explanation, and that the vote should be postponed, assit lion of .the ticketmfdeevu system, hied what were their
was uecertain how the change would work. . . views with rempeetto the propriety of an inquiry into the
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that working of the syetem,
the arranement was intended not to make the audit less,
va'Sitier:i. G. GREY RreEspY,,ctsatiodtthheategvrielsattlLeteehael esrpartiVlgidfreoatsnptrhee-
but more, efficient. The clerks were transferked' to the.
War Department that they miht examine the accounts in present system. Ho believed that it would be desirable that
conueetion with the clerks of that department. When the
theas and that this would satisfy' the publiethen their apprehen-
commissariat was transfereed• to the War-office, it wthemshould be an inquiry into the working of the system,
thought advisable that its expenses should likewise be in- sloes were grontlless. Its thought, however, that the terrus
(if the motion for inquiry intended to be brought forward
coerce at that efffcca; He was confident that the spirit df
hb
ey
hth,,,,ei
,htehne.remember a
oford Bo
nertwhiecirtsalibil reet
iwi
aetr en
itgohot v:
lane
mune;
oanntic.i
ct bh
ea nagued, wi
taaisneoffit
et
ioe
rthtusahs'
puops
sainbYle.ex true Veasga.awn cne
0, butgoo
good he reason
e
ment limiting the inquiry to time working of 'he act of
for postponing the vote. .
Mr. DISRAELI said that when the Chancellor of the 8 :3, which abolished transportation, and substituted the
reeent system.
Exchequer himself admitted that he could not explain the p The CAA:MILAN theureporteel progress.
vote, he really thought there. was . good reason for post- •
pelting it. He himself (Mr. Disraeli) had once hod occa- : , . , • VACCINATION BILL. '
sion to examine tle.audit system, and he hart then thought Mr. COWPER moved the - second readitig of the
that one great fault was that the audit was tooellidited, Vaccination. Bill. After osome general observations
and diet a change was necessary in the whole audit system. on tire beneficial effect , of vaccination . he explained
To be efficient, audits should be complete and independent ; the objects of the bill, - which was generally to make the
and the fault of the present audit. was.that it was neither regulations with regard to this matter more stringent, and
complete nor independent. He could not approve of any
vote that tended to diminish the functions of the audits; ...o.giy.e, the b WigritA of guardians power to defray the' ex-
penses of prosecuting those parents wise neglected to com-
and where there was a probability of such a diminntibu he • idy with ike law.
,It was also, proposed. to provide pro-
really thought thatthe vote might beipostponeet till it was perly ekille 1 operators, sibs
•understood that improperly
further examined, lest they should arrive at a-conclusion performed vaccination WAS the cause of much of the pre-
which the Government itself would regret:: The Chaecel- j edict) entertained ag dust it. 'At the same time he pros
ler of the Exchequer had said OA persons whoseauthority posed slightly to raise the medical fee for the operation.
was of weight, had declared that the arrangement now pro-
posed Would, in their epiniort, be conducive to the public the bill, bat 'd there '
•' e Mr. HENLEY :beim-overt generally of the principle of
said was..severel details which he would
iditvice. Now he (Mr. Disraeli) 'lid • not aPproie of refer- propel, eto have altered in committee.
ring to anonymous aueherities; but, as the Chancellor of the Dr, tenet; ELL oposecathe bill altogether, and amidst
.Eltchetiner had dime se,' he would refer himself to one, at the altercate laughter and irnpetionce o the house; quoted
liceteof equal impoitanee. He remembered a good and
eitost'effiment public seivant, Who' hall declared that be did ai
influence
eber,9clily
somf tlatpios, , exi,e ee,,jeco4 except
showto
ethcaottir vaccination
it.
but
never h eb.
be
transferred.oped that th hrhaeupd audit i
toi
of
n thein
not care whether, the commissariat was transferred to the
oeWmarraTiiliseacerioatr wnoll;(lAfter some farther discussion, in which My. BARROW
MIALL also opposed., thehompuleory cieueee, the
which they found themselves was this— that they n w o n- and Mr,
retail a second time.
The remaining orders of the day were then disposed of.
fined the audit system jest as there was a large increase°, f
expenditure; and thuseender present circumstances, the REFORMATORY. AND INDUSTRIAL SCHOOLS.
audit would always be uneqetal to the occasion. The audits Sir S. NORTHCOTE obtained leave to bring in a bill
should always be complete and independent; but they had to amend the mode of committing criminal and vagrant
never been complete, and scarcely ever been independent. children to reformatory and itiduettial schools.
He trusted that the right hon. gentleman -would remonsi- The house then adjourned' at twenty minutes to two
der'his opinion, and consent to the postponement of the o'clock.
vote.

Mr. WILSON consented to the postponement of the
Tote.
Mr. WILLIAMS said that he had asked a question
which had been answered by the noble lord by a reference
to the regimental system. They all knew that the regi-
mental accounts must be audited in a distinct manner ;
but the general accounts of the army stood in a different
Position. There was a paymaster for the navy, and the
army accounts should be treated in the same way.
The vote was then withdrawn.
On the vote for 17,7101. for the copyhold, enclosure, and
tithe commission,
Mr. WILLIAMS wished to know when the commission
would expire ? It was film that it was wound up, and
there could at least be no occasion for three commissioners.
They were doing private business with public motley.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the enclosure commission was instituted to save the
ex-
pense of Parliamentary proceedings in the inclosuro of
waste lands. The cepybold commission was in the same
way extended to facilitate the enfranchisement of copy-
holds, Musa two 011117a4149113 wore iu thair nature pez.

THE DYCE SOMBRE WILL CASE.—TbiB celebrated case
has been appointed far hearing on the 3d of April before
the Judic;al Committee of the Privy C.Juncil, the parties
to the suit being the Ea•it India Company and Mr.
Prinsep on the one part, and Mrs. Dyce Sombre on the
other part.

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