The Sun.
London, England, 1860-06-09 00:00:00

CHURCH RATES.

A nv,zaber of petitions were presented against the aboli•
tion of church rates.

Lo• rd LYVF,DEN presented a great many petitions in
law Air of the abolition.
THE BOMBARDMENT OF PALERMO.

Lord BROUGHAM said that he was about to put a
question. to his noble friend opposite, to which he hoped he
would receive an answer in the negative. It was, whether
there was any foundation for the accounts which had been
spread in this country of the bombardment of the town of
Palermo. For the honour of human nature he hoped there
wras no foundation for this unexampled atrocity. He said
,unexampled, for the most execrable tyrant of ancient times
.--Nero—even he was only charged with standing by in
levity while Rome was burning, and was never charged
'with the still more atrocious offence of setting fire to the
city for the purpose of destroying, amongst 600,000 human
beings, those who were his enemies. He hoped there was
no ground for this, because, though the principle of non-
intervention was sacred and ought to be scrupulously ob-
served, if it was unhappily proved that this account was
true, he must say that that principle of non-intervention
would be tried to the utmost. That principle was sacred
and inviolable, but it did not and could not extinguish in
their bosoms the natural feelings of humanity, could not
prevent them from hearing with indignation and horror of
those crimes that would be committed—if the answer were
not given to him in the negative—or prevent them from
wishing and praying for the speedy and entire liberation
of the people of Sicily, and, if this account be correct, even
by the downfall of their tyrants.
Earl GRANVILLE said he was sorry to say that the
Government had received finch intelligence as that which
the noble and learned lord had alluded to. The noble lord
ought to have given notice of his intention to put the ques-
tion to the noble earl the Under Secretary of State for
Foreign Affairs. It was impossible to give complete an-
swers unless such rules were complied with.
Lord BROUGHAM said he was perfectly well aware of
that, and
.he properly abstained from touching upon the
political aspect of the question.
OUR RELATIONS WITH ROME.

Earl STANHOPE, in moving for a copy or extract of the
despatch from the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs
to regulate the diplomatic relations with the Court of Rome
since the cessation of her Majesty's legation at Florence,
said that is the state of Central Italy, and the state of agi-
tation and alarm, and perhaps something more than alarm,
which existed there, it was certainly not desirable that their
lordships should be called on for any vote bearing on the
political aspect of that question, nor had he any intention
of proposing such a motion. His object merely was to call
attention to the disadvantage and inconvenience which at-
tended the system of carrying on diplomatic relations with
the Court of Rome since the cessation of her Majesty's mis-
sion at Florence. As to the exact time and mannerin which
a be ter system might be introduced, her Majesty's mini-
sters must be the best, and indeed the only judges. He
had no complaint whatever to bring against the gentleman
who now carried on our diplomatic business with the court
of Rome—Mr. Ode Russell—of whom he could only speak
in terms of praise. His appointment was a very good one,
and he justified his appointment by the ability and applica-
tion he had shown. In former times it used to be consi-
dared that penal consequences attached to any diplomatic
intercourse with the court of Rome, and it was thought that

any such diplomatic intercourse might expose the persons
conducting it to the penalties of a prwmunire. At the Con-
gress of Paris her Majesty's ministers had no wish to ex-
pose themselves to those penalties, but it was found impos-
sible to avoid all intercourse with the court of Rome, for
apart from all questions of a spiritual kind, there must oc-
casionally arise questions connected with their commercial
relations with such towns as Civita Vecchia and Ancona,
which required diplomatic intercourse. Her Majesty's Go-
vernment, therefore, determined to do that indirectly which
they could not do directly, by sending an attache from Flo-
rence to Rome, to carry on whatever diploma tic business
might be required, and with no greater salary. This gave
rise to so much inconvenience that the Government resolved
to apply a remedy to it, and accordingly in 1848 the act of
the 11th and 12th Viet., ch. 108, was passed, which was en-
titled " An Act for establishing and maintaining diplomatic
relations with the Sovereign of the Roman States." That
act:consisted of two clauses only, but in its passage through
their lordships' house a clause was introduced on a motion
of as noble earl (the Earl of Eglinton), which declared that
it should not be lawful for her Majesty to receive any mi-
nister from the court of Rome who should be in holy orders,
a Jesuit, or belonging to any other religious era pr_ An ilia
not now seek to disturb that decision of their lordships.
On the contrary, it seemed to him, considering the state of
religious feeling which prevailed in Ireland, that it would
not be desirable to receive any such nuncio or legation. He
did not in any manner seek to disturb that permission, but
merely to show how we might establish a more direct inter-
course with Rome. At that time the Ministers of the
Court of Rome took offence at this clause, and decided that
as it imposed a limit on their free discretion, they would not
receive any Minister from England. Eo that up to this
time the act had remained a dead letter. He thought the
time had now come for reviewing the subject. We had
been carrying on diplomatic intercourse by means of an
attache to the legation at Florence. That legation had now
ceased, so that at least there must be some modification.
He would ask what was the expedient to which Govern-
ment had had recourse. He presumed it had been neces-
sary to establish the attache either at the Court of Turin or
that of Naples. To either of these there were great objec-
tions. Turin was at a considerable distance from Rome,
and there certainly did not at present exist what the French
called compatibility between those two Governments. If
he were attached to Naples he would be 26 hours distant
from the city of Rome. This was a natural opportunity of
renewing diplomatic intercourse with Rome. The cessa-
tion of the legation at Florence would leave a fund suffi-
cient for the establishment of one at Rome, so that there
would be no increase of expense. The Ministers who now
advised the Pope were not the same as those who dissuaded
him from accepting the act of 1848. We were asking no
favour of the Court of Rome, but merely that the diplo-
matic intercourse between the two Courts should be
more direct. From whatever side the overture might
come, it was one that both parties might fairly and
properly entertain. As to the inconvenience and disad-
vantage of the former system, he might appeal to a
gentleman wio had held several diplomatic posts with
high honour o himself, and who was now in England en-
joying his well •earned renown. He meant Sir Hamilton
Seymour. He might also appeal to the testimony of the
noble marquis near him (Normanby), who had filled the
office of minister at Florence, and whose courtesy and hos-
pitality would not easily be forgotten by his countrymen.
In the first place, there was an utter want of weight and
dignity in this system. It was impossible that a young man,
holding no higher rank than that of attache, whatever his
ability, living, as most attaches must live, up three or four
flights of stairs, could compete in weight and influence with
the established missions of such powers as France and Aus-
tria. If he, with his slender salary, and at so early an age,
was able to compete successfully with other ministers, it
might become a question whether a lower salary would not
suffice for our ministers at Paris or St. Petersburg. With
all the personal merits of the gentleman who filled that
post, there had been a want of weight and dignity in his
representations. This had been felt in several cases. The
whole system as it now existed was neither more nor less
than a system of make-believe. We pretended in law not
to send a minister to Rome, and in fact we sent one there
from Florence. In public as in 'private life, a system of
make-believe was never so effective as a straightforward
mode of dealing. There was this further disadvantage.
It was perfectly optional with the Pope, or the Pope's
Ministers, whether they would or would not receive our
minister. An ambassador or a plenipotentiary had a right
to ask an audience of a sovereign; but in that instance it
was entirely optional with the Pope whether he would
grant the audience ; and there had been occasions when the
attache had had great difficulty in obtaining an audience.
The circumstances which had recently made the Court of
Rome more willing to grant those interviews would probably
induce them to receive a regular minister at that court. By
limiting this intercourse to the lowest diplomatic rank and
salary, we could not expect to be so well served as if one of
the highest rank were sent there. The question of enlist-
ment in Ireland for the Pope was one that required to be
dealt with by a very firm and prudent hand. The Courts
of Berlin and Petersburg, though not in connection with
thefehurch of Rome, had each several millions of Roman
Catholic subjects. Those courts had intimated to the Court
of Rome that ecclesiastical ministers would not be received ,
at Berlin or Petersburg ; and in consequence there had
baen no resident minister of the Pope at either court, though
they had been occasionally sent on special services. We may
adopt the same course at those courts, that of employing an
authorised agent at home. That distinguished
man,
Chevalier Bunsen, had at one time filled that office in Rome. 1
He was convinced that a mission at Rome would be most
conducive to the interests of art. The number of English
students in sculpture, painting, and architecture residing at
Rome was greater than those of any other country. It was
allowed that a two years' residence there was necessary
for
the full development of the artists' powers. Sir Joshua i
Reynolds had borne remarkable testimony to this fact. Ha I
said that before he went to Rome he imagined he had at-
tained something like excellence in painting ; but when he
got there he felt like a little child. England was almost the
only nation in the world that did nothing for its students
resident abroad. The Royal /Academy sent one student a
year to Rome, but the Government did nothing at all. Mr.
Gibson, the eminent English sculptor resident at Rome,
adios. colossal statue of the Queen adorned the room adjoining

where theirlordships sat, stated that France, Russia, Austria,
Saxony, Naples, Denmark, Sweden, Belgium, and other
European powers, had academies at Rome—even Mexico had
an academy there. France had at Rome five ar 1, itects, five
painters, five sculptors, two landscape paint 21 s, and two
engravers. Each student was sent there ler five years.
The students from Russia were sent for se years, at an
expense of £l6O a-year each. The French academy and the
Naples academy had professors of their ow n ; all the other
students were watched by the ministers of their respective
countries. In 1844 Mr. Gibson said he visited England after
an absence of 27 years. The late Sir Robert Peel sent for
him, and told him that the Government had some idea of
sending students to Rome, and wished him to give what
information he could on the subject from his knowledge of
the practice of foreign nations. He told Sir R. Peel that he
was entirely ignorant of the state of sculpture in England,
but that sinoe his arrival he had been examining and had
seen defects of style, likwise an absence of those grand prin-
ciples which prevailed in Italian works. He said that the
English Government spent a large sum in the erection of
public monuments, but contributed nothing to the training
of their students. If the English Government were to fol-
low the example of other nations, they would in the course
of time have public monuments that would be a credit to
them. It was unnecessary to add anything to the testi-
mony of so eminent an authority. The Prince Consort,
writing to the Earl of Ellesmere in 1856, had said : " No
country invests a larger amount of capital in works of art
than England, and• in none is there a more extraordinary
neglect of art-education." Some might object that ques-
tions of art were of no national importance. But he was
sure that that objection would not proceed from the noble
earl (Granville), nor from the noble earl (Derby) on his
side of the house, whose attachment to art was well
known, and who, not many weeks ago, had presented
two valuable pictures to the National Portrait Gallery.
It was only by study at Rome that our students could
attain that elegance which distinguished Italian works.
He said, therefore, that if an academy could be established
at Rome, a mission to that city would be most useful and
valuable, and even necessary. But if it turned out that
this country were unwilling to manifest the same care for
the cultivation of the fine arts as even Denmark or Mexico,
still a mission would be most beneficial. Itwould be a very
considerable boon to English artists r esident in Rome, who
were by no means a small or insignificant body. They
were a numerous, able, and devoted band, upon whose
studies and exertions depended the fate of the painting and
sculpture of this country in future years. In former years
he (Earl Stanhope) could conceive that there might be a
prejudice against such a mission, founded upon religious
considerations. But ho submitted that this question was
absolutely precluded by the act of 1848. That act had de-
cided that upon certain conditions we were willing and de-
sirous to establish diplomatic relations with the court of
Rome. That he apprehended, therefore, was not the ques-
tion. It was no longer an open question whether it was
desirable or practicable to have ,diplomatic relations with
Rome. These were the considerations which had led him
to bring this subject before their lordships. As to the ulti-
mate object, he hoped he might receive assurance that her
Majesty's Government were favourable to the proposal; as
to the exact time and circumstances, he felt that the ques-
tion must still remain undecided. He had at least endea-
voured to bring forward the subject in no party spirit,
avoiding every ground of offence to any class of opinions in
their lordships' house. He trusted that her Majesty's Go-
vernment, either then or thereafter, felt or might feel them-
selves enabled, by one and the same act, to place their diplo-
matic relations with Rome upon a sounder and better rela-
tion, and, at the same time, to encourage and protect the
cause of British art. (Hear, hear.) The noble earl con-
cluded by moving for a copy of the despatch referred to.
Lord WODEHOUSE said he hoped his noble friend
would not think him indifferent to the cause of art in this
country or abroad if he confined himself entirely to the ni-
plomatic view of the question. At the same time he could
not help feeling that this was not a convenient time or op-
portunity to accomplish the end which his noble friend de-
sired. Before, however, he (Lord Wodehouse) sat down,
he wished to explain to the house what was'the exact posi-
tion of our relations with the court of Rome, for though
his noble friend had been generally most correct in his
statements, he had yet fallen into one error. His noble
friend had correctly stated the circumstances which led to
the passing of the act of 1848, and of that particular clause
of the act to which reference had mere especially been
made. But with regard to the views of the court of Rome
on the subject of the diplomatic relations between this
country and that eourt, his noble friend would find that
the court of Rome thought different than it did with regard
to its relations with Prussia and Russia. The court of
Reme considered that the intimation, which he believed
was conveyed by the courts of Prussia and Russia to Rome,
that they did not wish to receive a minister who was an ec-
clesiastic, was very different from the intimation conveyed
by the House of Commons and the parliament of this coun-
try, viz., the law by which the prerogative of the sovereign
was restricted as to her diplomatic relations with one parti-
cular country in the world, and with one only. It was felt
to be not 'consistent with the dignity of the sovereign of
Rome to send a minister to this country whilst that limita-
tion upon the prerogative of the sovereign of this country
existed. He was not now going to discuss the policy of the
clause; he had no wish to raise that question. He onlywished
' to state flirt/ter tutu, LUIS IMILIa Lzatl oLuLv of circumstances,
our relations had been carried on with Rome in the same
manner as they had been for a considerable time previously,
They were conducted under the able management of Mr.
Odo Russell, the attache at that court. His noble friend
no doubt, had some ground for saying that an attache was
not the same as a minister. Still Mr. Odo Russell had
conducted our affairs at Rome in a very able manner, and
very much to the satisfaction of the Government, and had
placed our relations with the Papal Government on a most
satisfactory footing. Under these circumstances the Go-
vernment had now to consider whether this would be a con-
venient opportunity for making a representation to the Papal
court, to induce that court to receive a Minister from this
country, without a Minister being sent from Rome to us.
Ile should state that the Court of Rome had expressed its
readiness to receive a simple mission. He thought that if
the Government were to express such desire at the present
moment, they would run the risk of placing themselves in
a humiliating position, and the court of Rome in one of
some embarrassment. The present momentwas, he thought,
by no means a convenient one for taking such a step. Their
lordships knew what was the distracted state ef Italy, and
the divided condition of the Papal States. It had been be-
lieved very generally that her Majesty's Government had
taken a very forward part in pressing upon the Pope of
Rome the necessity of adopting changes in his Govern-
ment, and in urging him to taking a line of policy different
from that which he had been pursuing. But on this point
he (Lord Wodehouse) hoped there would be no misunder-
standing. Of course it was perfectly true that her Majesty's
Government, in common with others, were earnestly de-
sirous that the sovereign of Rome should make a change in
the administration of his dominions so as to render it more
consistent with the justice and well-being of those who were
placed under its rule. That they desired only in the in-
, terests of humanity and of the peace of Europe. The great
difficulty in Rome had been the condition of the Papal
States. But whilst the British Government had desired
this, it had always been thought right that this country,
being pre-eminently a Protestant State, should not take so
prominent a part as others with regard to a Catholic
State. Their course had, therefore, been for the most part
to second the representations made by other Governments,
and chiefly that of France. Matters being in this post-
tion, disapproving strongly as the Government did of the
present condition of the administration of the affairs
of the papacy, and the Pope being in so perilous a position,
they thought it would be extremely injudicious to propose
sending a minister to Rome at the present moment. Such
a request would very probably meet with a refusal by the
Pope, and would not tend to put our relations upon any
other than an unsatisfactory footing. (Hear.) He was not
aware that his noble friend had touched upon any other
point. If at any time the sovereign of Rome should express
a wish that a minister should be sent to Remo, her Majesty's
Government would make no objection, and power was
granted to them for the purpcse by the act of 1848 ; but her
Majesty's Government did not think the present opportu-
nity a good one for making any change. No inconvenience
arose at present, as his noble friend had stated, from Mr.
Ode Russell being placed under the embassy at Naples, for
he was able to correspond directly with the home Govern-
ment, although he sent his despatches to Naples to be for-
warded to the home Government in the ordinary course.
The Earl of MALAIESBURY thought their lordships
were much obliged to the noble earl for bringing this sub••
ject before the house. He entirely agreed with the noble
earl upon the diplomatic subject on which he had addressed
them. He did not distinctly see the force of saying that
this was not the right time and opportuniy for sending a
minister to Rome, because he thought the more serious the
affairs of Italy were the more this country required the
whole weight which it could give to its diplomacy in that
country. He should, however, be the very first raan to
declare that, whomsoever her Majesty's Government should
think proper to send, it would be impossible for him to act
with greater zeal, judgment, and discretion than that with
which Mr. Odo Russell had acted. (Hear.) He (the Earl
of Malmesbury) would say, from his own opportunities of
judging, that he had been most successful in his intercourse
not only with the ministers of the Pope, but with the Pope
himself, and this under the great disadvantage of not
holding a high rank. This disadvantage was chiefly felt in
contending with the ministers of other nations. Nothing
was more disadvantageous or more impolitic than for a
gentleman in this position to be compelled to sit down. in
conference with Ministers who had much greater authority
for urging their claims and advocating their cause than he
had. (Hear.) A point of detail had been referred to with
which he was not before acquainted, viz., that Mr. Ode
Russell had been attached to the court of Naples. He was
inclined to ask why this gentleman had not been attached
to the embassy at Turin, because it appeared to him that
Mr. Russell's correspondence would be much more conveni-
ently, rapidly, and safely sent from that part of Italy than
from Naples, considering the great distance of the latter
from London. This, however, was a point for the judg-
ment of the noble lord, and he only ventured to state his
opinion. Something had been said to the effect that in the
event of our sending a Minister to Rome, the Pope might not
consent to his reception at tais moment. But he (the Earl