The Sun.
London, England, 1860-08-01 00:00:00

BILL.

The house went into committee on this bill.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that the object of clause 4, at which the house resumed, was
simply to give the commissioners a uniform authority in
dealing with all stocks under Parliamentary guarantee.
The effect of this would be to increase the powers of the
commissoners, which at present ware in some degree re

duced.
This clause, with some amendments, was agreed to ; as
well as clEtuse 17, which relates to the production of ac-
counts. The other clauses were omitted.
The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and the house
resumed,
REFRESHMENT HOUSES AND WINE LI
CENCES BILL.
The house went into committee on Ifs bill, and resumed
at clause 6.

Col. DUNNE moved as an amendment the following :
Page 3, line 32, after " buildings" insert " which shall be
CHANCELLORs some remarks from
o Mr, r.
the A Y
EXCHEQUERR T ON,
over the value of £10," the object of which was to exclude
from the act all tenements under that value.
After The
me
said,
that as far as he was aware, no instructions had
been given to the police with respect to the mean-
ing of the term " refreshment houses," and he did
not consider there was any difficulty in respect to •its
interpretation. In the English bill tobacco shpps were
regarded as refreshment houses. The bill would extend
only to 12 or 14 towns in Ireland, because only that num-
ber had a population of 10,000 inhabitants. It had been
considered indispensable to the bills that the right of visi-
tation should be retained, and he could not consent to the
exclusion of houses under a yearly value of £lO.
After some discussion,
Mr. HENNESSY denounced this bill as a mere mea-
sure of police regulation, and unjust towards a poor class
of persons in Ireland, who would be called on to pay for a
supervision that would invade their privacy.
The amendment was negatived without a division. •

Mr. HENNESSY, then moved the omission of the
•lause; and the committee divided :
For the clause
Against
Majority
The amendment was accordingly negatived, and the
clause was agreed to.
Clauses'7 to 12 were agreed to after some discussion.
On clause 13,
Colonel DUNNE moved the following amendment :
" rage 6, clause 13, leave out from line 13, inclusive, to end
of clause, and insert further shall annex a certificate ap-
proving Of this application from two justices of the peace of
the district in which he resides, or if such house is situated
within the police district of the metropolis, or any boiough,
then from the justice or justices of Lthe district in which
such house is situated.'"
A protracted and irregular discussion ensued, after which
the house divided—

For the clause
Against
Majority
Mx. BUTT suggested the omission of the words ex-
cluding persons WhoSe houses might be suspected of being
frequented by members of an unlawful society.
Mr. DEASY said 11,3 had no desire to retain the words
in question.
Some other amendments were proposed and agreed to,
and the clause, to amended, was adopted.
Clauses 14 to 19 inclusive were agreed to.
On clause 20,
Lord FERMOY objected to the clause which he con-
sidered as conferring an arbitrary and oppressive power on
the police. By the clause, if any person should refuse ad-
mittance to the police he miglet be fined £5, and deprived of
k his license for two years. The noble lord concluded by
1119Zogne41h-eriniiNsiEwlsotifptphme teed", -.6, ?-that,
Mr. DEASY said that parties who took out licenses
under the act were aware of the conditions which were im-
posed. This provision exactly corresponded with a similar
provision of the English Act. However, he would have no
objection to limit the right of entrance to the houses when
the houses were licensed for selling refreshments.
The clause, with this latter amendment, was agreed to,
as wore the clauses to 25.
On clause 26,
Mr. DEASY moved an amendment; conferring on in-
spectors of constabulary the same powers of inspection as
those enjoyed by the inspectors of excise.
The clause, as amended, was agreed to.
Clauses 27 to 36 inclusive were agreed to.
On clause 37,
Colonel DUNNE moved the substitution'of " supervisor
of excise of the district" for "treasurer of the county."
The object of the amendment was to provide that the ex-
penses of prosecution should be defrayed, not by the coun-
ties in which they took place, but ly the excise.
The committee divided, and the numbers were—

For the clause • 65
Against it
Majority
The amendment was accordingly negatived.
Some other amendments were then moved, but the de-
bate was interrupted, it being 4 o'clock.
The sitting was then suspended.
The house resumed at 6 o'clock.
THE EMPEROR OF THE FRENCH.
Mr. B. COCHRANE said that yesterday he put a ques-
tion to the noble lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs as to
an article in a newspaper of which the noble lord said ho
had no knowledge. He now begged to ask the noble lord, in
distinct terms, whether a letter from the Emperor of the
French had been transmitted tp the noble lord of the most
friendly character; whether that letter had not been sub.
mitted to the Cabinet on Saturday last ; and if such a letter
had been received, whether the noble lord would have any
objection to lay it upon the table. (Oh, oh, and laughter.)
Lord J. RUSSELL, who was very indistinctly heard,
said—l of course could not answer a question with respect
to an article in a newspaper whichl had not seen, but with
regard to the question now put to me by the hon. gentle-
man, I beg to say that the Ambassador of the French did
communicate to me a letter addressed .o him—a private
letter of the Emperor of the French—which was of the
most friendly character towards this country, and expressing
a desire that the policy of the two countries might continue
to be identical. But the letter was a, private one, and though
I certainly did feel it right to communicate it to my col-
leagues, I do not think I should be justified in laying it
upon the table of this,hiluse. '
• EUROPEAN FORCES (INDIA BILL.)
Lord PALMERSTON moved that notices of motion be
postponed until after the order of the day fur the considera-
tion of the European Forces (India) Bill as ,4mendcd in
committee. j),
Mr. HADFIELD said he 'would ask the noble lord at
the head of the Government wlietht:r, after the friendly
message from the Emperor of the French, he would press
his motion for fortifications. (Laughter.) In justice to
the house, at this period of the session, and in justice to
the country, now heavily burdened, he 'hoped that no fur-
ther progress would bs made with works which he believed

-44

if commenced would cost 20 trillions instead of 12, and
which, when finished, would be of nc, real use. The noble
lord might depend upon it that if ever the day came when
the stout hearts and stalwart arms of the people of this
country were insufficient to defend it from invasion, fortifi-
cations would be of little avail,

Sir H. WILLOUGHBY asked the noble lord whether
he could now fix a day for the third reading of the bill.
Lord PALMERSTON said that he had every disposition
to give an opportunity for a full and fair discussion upon
the third reading of the bills and perhaps that day week
would be convenient for all parties. (Hear, hear, and a cry
of " Earlier.") Thursday next was set apart for the ques-
tion of fortifications, and Perhaps that subject might be ad-
journed till Friday, and the paper duties were to come on
upon Monday, so that Tuesday seemed the best day.
("Friday, Friday.") Well, then, he would propose Friday
for the third reading, con,ingmt anon the conclusion of the
debate upon fortifications.
The bill as amended was then agreed to, and the third
re ,ding fixed for Friday.'
CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES.
Mr. SPOONER asked if it was intended to take the
Civil Service Estimates to-morrow.
Lord PALMERSTON—CertainIy not.
VOLUNTEER CORPS (IRELAND).

Colonel FRENCH moved for leave to bring in a bill to
extend to Ireland all powers make rules and regulations
for the enrolment and organisation of volanteer corps which
are now by law applicable to Great Britain, urging the im-
policy as well as injustice of debarring the Executive Go-
vernment of Ireland—a part Df the United Kingdom most
exposed to invasion—from placing it in the same position in
relation to the raising
of volunteer corps as England and
Scotland.
Mr. CARDWELL, without distrusting the loyalty of
the people of Ireland, or their readiness to rally round the
Throne, and ,to resist any attempt at invasion, observed that
considerations of great importance, in connection with the
internal state of some parts of Ireland—to which he deli-
cately alluded—led the Government to the conclusion that
it was not judicious or expediekt to agree to the motion.
Mr. MAGUIRE denouxtcedthe policy of the Government
in not trusting the people of Ireland. If bad blood existed
among them, the blame, he said, was attributable to the
Government, which could put doWn Orange confederacies
as well as Riband. The distrun, shown to the people of Ire-
land confirmed the disaffection which existed in a large
mass of them, who, armed or ukarmed, he believed, would
meet invaders as foes.
Lord PALMERSTON observed that Mr. Maguire had
not held out great encouragement to the Government to
depart from their intention, and to accept the proposal to
place arms in the hands of the people of Ireland. On the
part of the people of Ireland, however, he denied the asper-
`Bien which Mr. Maguire had cyst upon his countrymen.
Ireland could not be said to be without means of defence
with 60,000 trained men.
After some further discussion, the motion was negatived
upon a division by 86 to 30.
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. W. EWART moved a series of resolutions for the
better regulation of the business of the house. 1. That the
discussion on the principle of a bill be confined to the time
of its introduction and second or third reading. 2. That
when, on a motion that the Speaker leave the chair for
going into a committee of supply, any discussion or debate
arise, it be not continued beyond 8 of the clock. 3. That
public bills which have been proceeded with in a previous
session may be resumed at the stage which they left off at
in the next session. 4. That bills introduced by the Go-
vernment be, as far as practicable,broughtonand proceeded
with early in the session. 5. That the best means of im-
proving and expediting the business of the house be consi-
dered by the Government in the interval between the ses-
sions, with a view to submitting the subject to the delibera-
tion of a select committee in the ensuing session of Parlia•
meat.
On the first resolution being put,
Sir G. LEWIS, after some remarks upon the amount of
precious time lost in extraneous discussions, and upon* the
-difficulty of layingdown inflexible rules for the government
of debates, observed that it might be advisable from time
to time to appoint a committee to consider the subject,
and that such a committee might be appointed early next
session. • In the meantime, he thought it hardly worth
while to discuss the proposed resolution.
Mr. NEWDEGATE agreed with his hon. friend the
member for Dumfries that it was necessary to put some
limits to the mode of transacting the business of the house;
but if he recollected rightly, his hon. friend himself had
introduced bills on Government nights. His opinion was
that days appointed for the transaction of Government
business should be exclusively devoted to the Government,

Lord HOTHAM noticed the changes which had taken
place in the mode of conducting business in his time, in
the frequent adjournment of debates, members delivering
prepared speeches who had not heard the previous debate,
or attacking everybody, and then leaving the house, and
he recommended a return to ancient practices.
Mr. ENVART rose to reply, but an hon. member moved
that the house be counted, but by the time the glass run
down there were 40 members present. The hon. member
said that as the Government proposed to appsint a select
committee on the subject he should withdraw his motion.
He hoped, however, in the recess that the Government
would turn their attention to the subject, and prepare some
plan for the committee.
The motion was then withdrawn.

On the motion of an hon. member the htiuse was counted,
and there being only 33 members present it adjourned at 25
minutes to 9 o'clock.

CUSTOMS DUTY ON FOREIGN PAPER.

TO THE I'DITOR OP THE SUN,
SIR,—On Monday, the 6th of August, after a
procrastination as elaborate as it is discreditable,
the House of Commons will be asked to come to a
decision as to the terms upon which foreign paper
shall be admitted into this country; and as upon
the right determination of this question depends
not only the future pm-sir-el:ray of the trade of paper-
making, but also the prosperity of almost every
other branch of commercial and manufacturing in-
dustry in this country, I consider the subject of
such vital importance to the general interest as to

justify me in again trespassi;g upon your space ;
and, notwithstanding the abuse, the misrepresen-
tation, and obloquy to which I have been almost

daily subjected from a section of the press, I will
endeavour, with your permission, to bring under
the notice of the commercial and manufacturing in-

:erests the great principle which is involved in the

determination of this apparently insignificant
question. I use the term insignificant as a com-

parative term, not because the interests imme•
diately at stake are ir., themselves of small account,
for the safety of a vast amount of property and the

welfare of thousands of innocent and industrious

people are involved in the issue, but because of the

greater magnitude, and therefore the proportionate
havoc which would be the consequence of applying
the principle of legislation to those larger interests
which is now, for the first time, sought to be ap-

plied to the paper trade. .
The question which I propose to bring under the
notice of your readers is a broad on 3, in which
every trade is interested that is in any degree de-

pendent upon a foreign source for the material which

forms the basis of the manufacture ; and, although

more than enough has been written to show the

bearing and effect of the proposed legislation on the
trade of papermaking, I may be permitted to use the
facts in connection with this particular interest in
illustration of the principle, which applies equally
to other and larger interests. The question is, can

we as a manufacturing nation afford to ignore .and
altogether put out of view, foreign legislation when
it takes the form of export duties levied upon raw
materials, the product of foreign countries, and
forming the basis of our manufactures, when we
are fixing the terms upon which foreign manu-

factured goods shall be admitted to this Country ?
When an import duty is levied at the English
port, or an Excise duty is exacted that has the effect
of enhancing the cost of any article of home manu-
facture, it seems to be an admitted principle that
every similar article coining from abroad should be
subjected to a Customs duty of equal amount; and

the question now raised, and to which I desire to
draw the attention of every one interested in the
covnuieTeiat piiiveiftt'‘oftttris tkitintry7--irv-liether
an export duty levies abroad, for the benefit of a
foreign Government, upon the raw materials we
purchase from them, is not identical in its effect
upon our manufacturing industry, in enhancing the
cost of the manufactured article, to that of an Eng-
lish tax of the same amount; and, if so, why the
manufactured goods of foreign countries should not
be met by a countervailing import duty, as in the
case of home taxation.

The proposal to ignore foreign taxation and to
admit foreign manufactured goods free from duty to
this country, irrespective of whatever tax the

foreigner may exact on the raw material of manu-
facture, is now made for the first time in connection
with the trade of papermaking. With the view,
therefore, of illustrating the principle, and showing
its practical operation, I shall shortly describe the
position of the paper trade, and the consequences
that must ensue in this particular case if Mr. Glad-
stone's proposal be permitted to pass into a law.
The paper trade is one that is dependent for its
raw Material upon the refuse products of other ma-
nufacturing operations and of domestic life; the
waste or refuse from the manufacture of linen and
cotton and the cast-off garments of the people com-
prise the raw material of our manufacture.
This refuse, which for any other purpose is utterly
worthless, is converted into an article of first neces-
sity, and of the annual value of upwards of
£6,000,000 ; and, as nearly as I can estimate, from
40,000 to 50,000 people are employed in the manu-
facture.

It is confined to no particular district, but spread
over the whole country, often in remote places,
where the facilities of good water are to be found.
For upwards of 150 years a large amount of the

revenue of
,this country has been derived from an
excise duty on paper; its amount has varied, but
in recent years the tax has been 11d. per lb. For
the sake of simplification I omit the additional 5
per cent. we now pay.
Previous to 1853 the Customs' duty stood at a
prohibitive amount ; but at that period, under the
direction of the Government of the day, in which
Mr. Gladstone was the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
the Customs duties were revised, and 21d. per lb.
was then fixed by Mr. James Wilson, now in India,
and, as I am informed by Mr. John Wood, the then
Chairman of the Board of Inland Revenue, as a bare
equivalent to the taxation (home and foreign) borne
by the home trade. This amount has remained un-
challenged up to the present day, it being known
and understood that the differential ld. per lb. in
excess of the Excise duty was intended to counter-
vail the foreign export duties levied abroad upon
the rags used by the English paper makers, which
duties are still levied, and amount to a tax of lid.
per lb. on the cost of paper. The foreign rag tax
of Id. added to the Excise duty of 11d. makes
2i'd. per lb., and allowing id. per lb. as the inci-
dental costs of the Excise system, we have a taxa-
tion of 3d. per lb. on English paper, and an import
duty on foreign paper of 21d. per lb.
Throughout the whole of the agitation for " the
repeal of the taxes on knowledge " I can find no
mention made of, the injustice of this import duty;
we have never until recently been stigmatised as
" grasping monopolists ;" nor were we before aware
that we have been battening on protection." It
seemed to be considered a fair and just, and the
only possible mode of counteracting the evil effect of
foreign legislation ; and, if the principle were ad-
mitted, the amount cannot be brought into question
against us, as the foreigner has had a clear advan-
tage of Id. per pound.
At the commencement of this year, without one
moment's notice, and without a word of consultation
with any member of the trade, Mr. Gladstone pro-
posed in his famous budget to repeal the Excise
duty on paper, and at the same time to abolish the
whole of the Customs duty on foreign paper. To
the former of these proposals we raised no objec-
tion.

The House of Lords rejected the bill for the re-
peal of the Excise duty, and now Mr. Gladstone
insists upon reducing the Customs duty to the
level of the Excise, notwithstanding the foreign

The illusion has at length vanished; the Govern-
ment is obliged to confess an entire failute in their
negotiations : but, actuated by some unaccountable
motive, Mr. Gladstone persists in his proposal to
abolish the differential import duty on foreign
paper, although the efforts that have been made to
obtain the remission of the foreign export duties
prove that the Government considered this a neces-
sary precursor to the alteration of the Customs'
duty.
We have not only shown theoretically that the
foreign manufacturers have an advantage entirely
due to the export duties levied upon us of £9 per ton,
being 40 to 70 per cent. on the value of the rags, and
of nearly 11d. per lb., or equal to 25 per cent. on the
cost of our paper, but we have laid before the
Government demonstrative proofs that the foreigi
makers are now competing with us in oti,cr.3ll.lnar
kef, in spite of the d;fferential id. per Ib. tour
exacted on their paper ; and, notwithstanding we
have great reason to believe that many members of
the Cabinet acknowledge the justice of our claim, we
are (as we suppose for party reasons) handed over
to be dealt with as Mr. Gladstone and Mr. Bright
think fit.

Now, if this species of legislation can be defended
on any theory of international justice, it is a prin-
ciple equally applicable to other trades and manu-
factures; and I will apply it theoretically, first, to
the most important of our national manufactures—
the cotton trade.

We are dependent upon America for a supply of
cotton to keep in profitable employment the vast
amount of capital invested in mills and machinery,
and the countless thousands who earn their daily
bread in connexion with this gigantic manufacture;
to say nothing of the merchants and the people they
employ in dispersing the product of this great in-
dustry throughout the world.

I now ask the Manchester Chamber of Commerce
what view they would take of a proposal on the part
of the American Government to levy an export duty,
not of 50 or 60' per cent., as in our case, but say 10
or 15 per cent. on the cotton coming to this country,
and that, notwithstanding such a proposal, Mr.
Gladstone insisted upon admitting American cloth
and yarn free to this country, and to our colonies
abroad.
America is ambitious to rival Great Britain in her
manufacturing greatness, and, finding the principle
admitted in the case of, paper, she may, by the mere
exercise of her will—for she has the power in her
own hands—l say she may take this means of strik-
ing at the root of our manufacturing supremacy.
Aud suppose she did ; what, I ask again, would you,
the Manchester Chamber of Commerce, say under
such circumstances to a proposal from Mr. Gladstone
to admit American cloth free to this country ?
Would you stand by and watch the drapers mea-
suring out American calico while the English mills
were standing idle and the people starving.
Will any one dare to say that any member of
that Chamber, no matter what his political creed may
be, would affirm the principle, and declare, in the
words of Mr. Gladstone, that it was but the develop.
ment of the Free-trade principle that this country
has been walking up to since 1846 ?

No—at the first mention of such an intention the
fast train would carry the whole Chamber to London
and-Zifi'lhe chairman at their-head;DoWning.-Sfat
would be stormed and taken in 48 hours.

" But," says sdme simpering doctrinaire," such a
course would be but just in the interest of the con-

sumer."

Pursue, then, your system to its legitimate con-
clusion, and see where it will land you.
What say you, men of Leeds, of Halifax, and
Bradford, to the admission of Continental woollens,
they levying an export duty on the wool they pro-
duce, and which you Purchase ?
What say you, denizens of the sister isle, why
Russia should not levy an export duty on her hemp
and flax, and send you in lieu thereof her manufac-
tured linen cloth? You, mcn of Belfast, would surely
receive so great a boon, and admit it free from duty,
for in so doing you would be able to rest from your
labour, and feel satisfied that you would be acting
in the " interest of the consumer."
And you of Coventry and Macclesfield, Spital-
fields and Paisley, would not you, too, desire to add
to the blessings you now enjoy that of an export
dnty on raw silk, and a free admission of foreign
manufactured silks ?
And you of Northampton, Stafford, Norwich, and
Glocester, are you content that the French Emperor
—in the exercise of that paternal care which he so
benignly manifests for the welfare of the European
family—should save you from all further trouble
and anxiety by an ordonnance directing ar export
duty to be levied on all foreign leather, concur-
rently with a proposal from Mr. Gladstone that
foreign gloves and shoes should be admitted free to
this country 1'
And now, having carried out this politico-econo-
mical theory to its legitimate conclusion—having
worked out the principle enunciated by a public
writer on the subject, who says," If an article can
be made cheaper abroad than at home," no matter
whether this be the result of foreign legislation, of
foreign taxation upon our raw material or not, " let
it be made abroad"—where, I ask, are your con-
sumers ? It is true we may have cheaper paper,
cheaper cotton, cheaper woollens, silks, linens, shoes,
and gloves—but where is the purchasing power, the
money wherewith to buy ?
Do not say that this is a wild, an impossible
theory ; it is but the measure which is meted out to
the English paper-maker by the combined action of
Mr. Gladstone and the Continental Governments.
We are told by the Government that if we cannot
meet a competitor who, by means of a tax levied
upon us by foreign Governments, and from which
he is exempt, has an advantage over us in the cost
of his paper of 25 per cent., " that we must seek
out some other occupation."
If this be justice to the paper-maker, why should
not the same measure be meted out to every other
trade?? And what is to prevent an extended appli-
cation of the sand principle ? When it has become
noised abroad among the nations that England is
willing to retire from business, that she has already
retired from the business of making paper,—prefer-
ring to sell her rags to the Americans and buy her
paper from the Germans and the Belgians,—is it to
be supposed that foreign nations are so ignorant, so
blind to their dwn interests as not to give a cordial
assent to the principle by extending its operations
to other branches of manufacture ?
I know that the full measure of such a calamity
is impossible. But why ? Because, long before it
could be consummated, the consumers, the people in
whose interest this absurd doctrine of what is falsely
and dishonestly termed " free trade " is put forth,
would rise up and destroy their oppressors. They
would demand to be governed by men who would
have some sympathy with their countrymen, who
would study the practical rather than the theoreti-
cal ; who would take humanity as it is, and not as
they would have it ; and who would recognise the
laws of God—that man shall live by the sweat of
his brow, in preference to any merely human theory.
Nor is this at variance with the principle of free
trade in its highest, noblest, best sense.
Heaven ordained that each portion of the human
family should produce that for which the people and
the climate were best fitted ; that where from the
nature of the climate, the skill of the people, the