The Sun.
London, England, 1860-06-29 00:00:00

VALE OF CLWYD EXTENSION BILL.

The standing orders Were considered and suspended, in
order that this bill might be proceeded with.
ADULTERATION OF FOOD BILL.

This bill. on motion of Lord REDESDALE, was read a
eaaa time and passed.
SHELTER FOR SHIPPING.

The Marquis of CLANRICARDE called attention to
the unprotected state of the coast with respect
to any shelter for shipping during storms. Ho should like
to know how far it was practicable to afford better shelter

for those ships upon our coasts than was at present afforded
by the adoption of some plan for the construction of break-
waters and harbours less costly and Letter adapted
for certain localities than the system of solid
masonry hitherto in use, and ho wished to know
whether auy such plan appeared likely to be also service-
able for the improvement of our national defences. The
lose of life and property en our coasts during the last few
years was very great, and it was much to be regretted that
it was on the increase. The mercantile marine he looked
upon as the nursery of the navy, and such being the case
it was the duty of Parliament to do everything that was
calculated to be of service or protection to them. Year
after year large sacrifices of human life occurred, and many
hundreds of poor fellows left England who never returned ;
and the misery and destitution that was occasioned by such
a calamity was enormous. The noble lord then alluded
to the report of the commission which had sat upon the
subject, and quoted some remarks of Sir J. Burgoyne,
which he said was clearly against the plan proposed
in that report, yet Parliament had voted sums
of money for the carrying out these recommendations,
totally disregarding all other plans but solid masonry.
The system of running out solid blocks of masonry was per-
fectly useless, and experience had proved that to be the
case, and he thought it would be a waste of money to con-
tinue such a system. Where there was silt, this masonry
did not prevent the formation of bars, and the stone was
found to be far from durable. The harbour at Dover
he thought was the greatest failure that had ever occurred,
and after the vast sums of money that had been ex-
pended, the result had been so very far from
the object intended. There were several other places
beside Dover, where extensive works were going en, but he
feared the same useless result would follow. The
only ground he could' see why these works were
being carried out was because they were very large
and expensive, and unfortunately any engineer in this
country who was connected with any very extensive work
obtained a great reputationfrem that fact. his own opinion
was that the persons to be employed in constructing these
works should to scientific men, thoroughly acquainted with
the natural laws regulating the movement of the waves and
their reflux ; that they should be engineers who had been in
the habit of constructing such works ; and that, above all,
nautical men should be combined with them. At present
there was no want of engineers, but it was too much the
habit to employ men without having due regard to the
nature of the works upon which they were to be engaged.
No doubt .ho opinion of nautical men was taken even under
the present system; but what he complained of was that
the value of that nautical opinion was invariably determined
by the engineer. Before proceeding to expend such enor-
mous sums of money as £300,000, which he believed was
proposed to be incurred in one instance, he thought it would
be more economical to try an experiment elsewhere, even if
it involved the cost of one, two, or five thousand pounds.
He thought that a great responsibility at present rested on
the Government and both houses of Parliament, if they did
not without delay thoroughly inquire into the question ;
and in conclusion he begged to move for the appointment of
a select committee to investigate the matter.
The Duke of SOMERSET was of opinion that no amount
of expenditure would be refused by Parliament when the
object was to secure protection for the lives and property of
our seamen ; but it was not merely by considering the ques-
tion of harbours of refuge and breakwaters that knowledge
could be obtained upon the subject. The question had been
considered by many former committees, and especially by the
committee on sh;pwrecks, and the result arrived at was that
so long as the shipowners could recover from insurance com-
panies the amount for which their vessels were insured they
were careless as to what became of them. As regarded
the number of schemes which had been proposed for
harbours of refuge, their lordships were aware that they
had been most extensive and costly ; and the more
the evidence upon the question was examined, the
more perplexing the whole subject became. The most
distinguished engineers differed very materially from
each other in the opinion upon every scheme hitherto pro-
posed. By the terms of the noble marquis's motion he ap-
peared to object to every harbour and breakwater construc-
ted of solid masonry, but he (the Duke of Somerset) was
not aware, from any informat on he possessed, that any
batter system could be adopted. Floating breakwaters had
been proposed by Admiral Taylor and other naval officers,
and their proposals were submitted to a select committee in

1843, who came to the conclusion that there was not sufficient

evidence to justify the expen "iture of the public money in
the experimental construction of a floating breakwater.
Floating breakwaters were open to this serious drawback,
that in the event of any casualty the consequences must
bo most disastrous to any vessels riding in the harbour.
There was a breakwater at Dover, but it had failed. There
had been another at Brighton, built by Admiral Taylor, but
in consequence of a gale of wind it came on shore, expel i-
'nen ally exemplifying what the commissioners had said
would happen in such a ease. Last February a company
hail proposed to erect a floating breakwater at Hastings.
After taking legal elvice as to how far the Admiralty
would be nispon-ible for the consequences of such a struc-
ture, he wrote to the company, stating that. the Admi-
ralty were preAre 1 to give assent to its construction ,
upon the diet net understanding that they were not to
be hold in any degree responsible fur any damage or
injuries that might occur to vessels trusting to the
protection of the breakwater. How far the company
%erre :ail:died with that answer, or prepared to take the
whole responsibility upon themselves, he could not say,
h iving since that time had nu communication from them ;
but he believed their lurdships would be most unwilling to
undertake the establishment of a breakwater upon any such
terms. Now, all the light vessels along shore were fastened.
in what was supposed to be the most secure manner tile'
could be devised, but in 1311 the three light vessels in
the North Sea parted their anchors and went to sea ; and
Wag it not probable that if there had been a floating
breakwateru, at the time it would also have gone out to sea ?
was aware that breakwaters had not been successful in
many respects, and one reason was that engineers dif-
fered so much as to plans, and so also did successive
Clover
un'ents• Last year he (the noble duke) went to
Alderneymirivkil att the breakwater there, accompanied by
military
and
come unler the incers. About 14 different plans had
considerationbut as
of successive Governments
fur that breakwater,
course would be to abandon far as he could judge the best
n.oaey that had been speratlie project, even after all the
upon it. Then as to the harbour
of Holyhead ; it was true it had net been carried out upon
such a scale as it should have b
one of solid work, proceeding ef(ril• the shore; but then
Portland harbour was
there was every facility aad material
spot for con-
structing a harbour there. The noble n mthe
arl4lllBi t hwaadtit s aidt
Dover harbour was an unsuceiesfu! one. \Nsa
present ; but when the pier was carried out allittle further
c a t h a r.
it would be found very useful. There were l
hours of refuge proposed, but it required the Governmentgr
to pause before it adop ed any one of them, and h e shouldbe very sorry to pledge himself to any one of these harbours
without further information. The noble marquis wished f•r
committee, but if it was merely a committee to consider'
the construction of breakwaters and harbours at a less cost
than at present, he could net see the wisdom of entering
upon a new inquiry, and he did not think such a committee
would be of any use at the present time. He thought it
would be much better that the question Should be left upon
the responsibility of the Government to bring forward what
they thought would be the best plan fbr the construction of
harbours of refuge. (Hear, hear.)
The Earl of lIARDIVICKE said, as the noble duke had

stated that it was not the intention of the Government to
propose any vote of public money for breakwaters without
very 'grave considerations as to the manner in which that
money was to be expended, he should not enter upon that
part of the question. But the proposition of th noble mar-
quis was totally different. All the noble mar ,: is proposed
was to inquire whether floating breakwaters cre not better
than those of solid masonry. He himself (the Earl of Hard-
wicke) was of opinion that a breakwater o bat description
should be tried upon a scale which would not require any
large outlay, and that when it was secured with proper
anchors it would be found to be perfectly safe. He should
like to see an experiment tried, say at Hastings, of a float-
ing breakwater to secure the beaching of fishing boats,
which would render most essential service to the persons
engaged in that occupation. He thought, if a committee
was granted, it would be the means of laying bofore Parlia-
ment precise information as to what would be the best form
and materials for such constructions.

The Earl of BANDON wished to take that opportunity
of drawing the attention of the Government to the fact that
the south-west coast of Ireland was perfectly defenceless. Not
a single gun was to be found either at the harbour of Long
Island or the magnificent Bay of Bantry.
The Duke of SOMERSET was understood to say that in
case of any emergency ships of war would be the best de-
fence of that p ►rt of the coast.
The Earl of DERBY said, without wishing to take any
part iu the discussion as to the construction of floating
breakwaters, he wuld take that opportunity of putting a
question with reference to an important subject. The re-
port of the Commissionon National Defences had been lying
on the table of the house fora considerable time and had in-
volved an enormous expense, and he considered it was very
important that the intentions of the Government on the sub-
ject should bo known. The session was now far advanced,
and he hoped the noble earl opposite would be prepared to
state the intentions of the Government upon this question.
Earl GRANVILLE said whatever measures the Govern-
ment decide upon would be introduced in the other house
of Parliament. llc was not prepared at tha• moment to
state what the nature of those measures might be, but he
should make inquiries on the subject.
Lord BROUGHAM said that all who had witnessed that
grand and magnificent spectacle in Hyde-park on Saturday
last must have been convinced that our best defences were
to be found in our troops. In that term he included volun-
teers, for he could see no dilkrence between troops and
volunteers. He conic vcd that the existence of a large
, amy force, and the•facility with which they could be
moved from one part of the country to the other, was a
most important element in national defence. He would
suggest to the Government that some such scene as that of
Saturday last should be repeated in other parts of the
country, and that reviews of a similar kind should take
place in Yorkshire, Lancashire, Devonshire, and the eastern
and south-eastern parts of the country, which would pro-
duce the happiest effect upon the volunteer movement, and
the best effect also in other countries. (Hear.)
The Earl of CAITHNESS said that engineers, generally
speaking, omitted from their calculations one of two ele-
ments with which they had to deal in the construction of
solid harbou s. They took the water only into account,
and not the'air also. The harbour of Wick, which had stood
the most severe tests to which a harbour could be exposed,
had only given way in those parts where Hilton was used.
Next month the herring fishing on that coast would com-
mence, in which there would be 1,00) boats and 5,000 men
engaged, and if any storm arose it would be from the north
and north-east, and those boats would be left entirely at
the mercy of the sea, whereas if such a floating breakwater
as had been suggested was constructed the whole of the
lives and property embarked in the fishing would be pro-
tected from such storms.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said he did not envy
the noble duke or his colleagues the responsiblity they took
upon themselves in ab taining from carrying out what had
been proposed by the harbours commission, and in refusing
a committee to inquire farther into the subject.
Earl GRANVILLE said the noble marquis was mis-
taken in supposing that his noble friend refused his propo-
sal ; and if the noble marquis could find that the peers, who
we e best qualified to inquire into this subject, were pre-
pared to investigate it in committee, the Government would
not oppose a motion for that pUrpose.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE was understood to
withdraw his motion for the purpose of introducing another
to-morrow.