The Sun.
London, England, 1860-02-15 00:00:00

NICE AND SAVOY.

The Marquis of NORMANBY moved for copies of any
instructions that may have been sent from the Secretary of
State forForeignAffairs to the Charge d'Affaires at Florence,
who was not accredited to the Provisional Government
there, directing him to attend an official reception on
the Ist of January, of Signor Buoncompagni,
now acting as Governor-General of Tuscany, having
been nominated as such by Prince Carignan, of
Savoy, without any subsequent popular sanction on the part
of the Tuscan people, and also for returns of all communi-
cations between the Secretary of State and her Majesty's
Ambassador at Paris on the subject of the annexation of
the duchies of Savoy and Nice to France up to the Ist of
January last. The noble lord took the opportunity of re-
marking upon what he considered the extraordinary act in
question, which he looked upon as an exemplification of the
line of conduct which had been pursued towards Italy,
and he would be careful not to say anything
that would embarrass the noble earl opposite in the re-
marks he should feel it his duty to make on the present occa-
sion. The noble marquis then referred to the answer given
to him on a former occasion when the noble earl, the Presi-
dent of the Council, said there might have been conversations
on the subject between Count Walewski and Lord Cowley
on the subject of the annexation of the two duchies, but
that nothing had taken place which could properly be called
official. He confessed he could not understand how any
such conversation could take place on so import-
ant a subject between two such eminent personages,
and nothing transpire that could be considered official. He
then proceeded to comment in severe terms on the part
the Government had taken in Italian affairs, and
said that the idea thatthe Baron Iticasola had been selected
by the popular voice was quite absurd. According to his
view it was quite a mistake to suppose that the people of the
Central States had tranquilly submitted to the Provisional
Government.
The Earl GRANVILLE said that he had never been
accused in their lordships' heuse of want of courtesy, and
he should certainly not be guilty of any want of courtesy
towards the noble marquis, either in his tone or manner ;
and if it had appeared so, he much regretted it. (Hear.)
This motion was almost without precedent in its irregularity,
but at the same time he had not the slightest objection to
the return. The noble marquis stated that no communica-
tion passing between a Minister of the Crown and an am-
bassador at a foreign Court, could be regarded in any other
light than as an official communication. He (Lord Gran-
ville) denied that such was the case. When a Minister and
an ambassador had known each other for many years, it
was impossible that they should not fall into views and
modes of expression which rendered the communication
unfit to be regarded as a public document. The noble mar-
quis
had referred to a conversation in which Count Walewski
had stated what would be done in certain contingencies, but
the papers laid last night on the table would throw some
light on that point. He suggested to the noble marquis that
the correspondence should comprise the entire period since
the accession of the present Administration to offiee. It
seemed strange that, on such a motion as this, the noble
marquis should have gone into a general charge against the
Italian people. (Hear.) He really must ask upon what
authority the noble marquis made all these grave charges
(Hear.) Private letters might throw some light on such
questions, but they ought not to be made the basis of such
charges, and such discussions of public questions on which
they all had reliable information on which they had formed
their opinions. The noble marquis, night after night, read
extracts and translations from his private correspondent, but
we did not know the name for the motive of this private
correspondent, and were therefore unable, to say what
weight ought to attach to his representations. It would be
childish for the Brit.sh Parliament to allow itself to be
influenced by such things. (Hear.) A collection of tales
of this description had been submitted to her Najesty's
Government, but, on inquiry, they proved to be without
foundation. (Hear, hear.) It would be contrary to human
nature to suppose that such a golden age had arrived for
Italy as that there were no offences on the part of the people,
and no misconduct on the part of the Government—(hear,
hear)—but, from what he considered authentic information,
he learned that the present condition of Italy was most re-
markable for the order which prevailed, and more cape
cially if they contrasted it with the state of things which
prevailed in 1848. Our representatives informed us that
the elections were conducted with order and regularity, and
that-the persons elected were those who were remarkable
for nobility of birth, for extent of property, or for their
scientific, or literary, or industrial qualifications. The noble
marquis even questioned the very existence of this despatch.
Probably this, too, was on the information of his private
correspondent. (Laughter.) The noble marquis had used
terms in speaking of the Central Italian Governments which
had better have been avoided, in relation to the heads of
States with which we wish to live in peace and friendship.
(Hear.) There were no doubt some offences committed,
but, 'on the whole, the condition of Italy was satisfactory as
regarded the order preserved and the disposition exhibited
on the part of the people. Her Majesty's Government had
never been partizans in this matter, but had always preserved
a strict neutrality. and when they approved of annexation,
because the people wished it, they expressed their readiness
at the same time to discuss any other proposition for a settle-
ment ; and, so far from the influence of England having
diminished, it had gone on gradually increasing, owing to
no other merit on the part of the Government than that they
had acted in unison with the feelings of the people of Italy,
and of the majority of the people of this country. (Hear.)
No doubt the people of Italy looked to us for moral sup.
port, and our policy was to leave them to settle their own
affairs—(hear)—abstaining from entering into any engage-
ments which might fetter our free action ; and, having
strictly done so, he did not think that the Government
deserved the reproaches of the noble marquis. (Hear.)
The Marquis of NORMANBY, in explanation, was
understood to say that, as he was informed, our represen-
tative was ordered to attend the official reception in ques-
tion, and that the representative of France was ordered not
to attend it.
The Earl of MALME SBURY remarked that if the noble
earl the President of the Council was tired of hearing the
noble marquis bring forward this Italian question it was the
fault of the Government themselves, for they had kept the
houie without information, and made it necessary to ask
these questions and move for these returns. Without wish-
ing to glorify the late Cabinet, to which he (the Earl of
Malmesbury) belonged, he must observe that on leaving
office he presented to Parliament the full correspondence
which had taken place on the affairs of Italy from the let of
January to the end of May. The noble lord the present
Secretary for Foreign Affairs hailnot followed that example,
for no official papers had been published by him since his
despatches of June last. Nov he (the Earl of Malmesbury)
had been made the subject of great misrepresentations. For
some party purpose he had been held up as a partisan of
Austria, and as a partial supporter of Austrian tyranny in
Italy. But in the very first despatch he wrote on the subject
to Lord A. Loftus, at Vienna, on the 12th of Jan., 1859, he
stated positively and categorically to Austria that in no
case could England assist her in military operations in
Italy. In the face of that he had been accused of being
partial to the Austrian Government and of wishing it well,
and being against Italian liberty and independence, while
throwing every possible difficulty in the way of France.
The object of the late Ministers was to establish and main-
tain a complete, impartial, bona fide neutrality, which they
knew was the wish of the English people ; and this was
done up to the moment when they quitted office. No cir-
cumstances which had occurred could justify her Majesty's
Government departing from the principle of non-interven-
tion. Though he had not seen the papers which had at last
been presented to the other house, but not to their lord-
ships, and spoke, therefore, with diffidence on the subject,
yet, from all he had heard, and, indeed, from what the noble
lord the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs had himself
stated in the other house, he was apprehensive that strict
impartiality and a system of non-iuterference had not been
persisted in. If it were true that her Majesty's Government
believed that the best policy was that North Italy should be
formed into a strong kingdom, composed of the united pro-
vinces which had rejected their former sovereigns, and urged
that policy on France, and France used it as a reason and a
pretext for carrying out objects which she appeared to have
abandoned for the time, then the blame of the loss of Savoy
to Piedmont and its annexation to France would in some
measure rest with her Majesty's Government, because they
had abandoned the principle which the late Government
first' eatablished, and which their successors had for a time
folloWed. Every roan had a right to form an opinion on this
subject, and the opinion of her Majesty's Government, it
appeared, was that a strong kingdom should be formed of
North Italy. He had the greatest respect for the experi-
ence and ability of the members of the Government in
inons;oubsuei
inme histhat
opinion that was not the way to give real
strength to the
eluded that theygov7nment of that part of Italy. lie con.•
sished what he, and he believed every
roan in this co Nnt- mstwished, viz., that Italy should be
strong enough to resist aggression and to take her place
among the other great
nations of Europe ; but he did not
think that their scheme was d the best for arriving at such
.consummation,ne and he not tell them why. If they
fG rmed a kingdom of North Italy, by uniting the duchies of
I'a,-ma and Tuscany, and the Ry,o and it had for its
consequence the annexation of Savoy to how could
a • trong kingdom in a milit.
it bc
fromptshoeopnn at both ends.
from the Earl of Derby.) It wcald?irbseense,:, (Hear_ , hear,
tz-enoble peer.)
(Renewed erics of " Hear, hear,"
France s,sou ld hold the key of the Al
Austria the s 'ey of North Italy on the Mincio. (Ilseoaurthlieanj
The sU.ograp ktical formation of Italy made it a difficult
cu t
try to deft 'nd in a illilitary point of view ; and
coun looking to
the character of I he Kaftans, he believed that the strength of
Itelv leas to be found in the existence of those separate and
distinct vent; R.-111s which it had possessed for many cen-
turies. would be stronger as a nation of confederated
States, free of course from foreign interference, than as one
1-insioni as suggested by her Majesty's
independent • '
.11 Italy were formed
into a kino•dom as they
Government.give offence, but
Proposed, it w ld be strong enough to
never strong e no
ugh to protect itself; but, though these
rich to urge them
were his own pet 'YAW opinions, he did not
upon the Italians, Jaor would Lie do so if . ho were now a
I eve
(C
Minister of the Cr,l%-n. Let them, in God's name, e,
heers from
the Italians to wort snit their own liberty.
the Ministerial benc he '.) And if her Majesty's Govern-
ment had any influee 'CO over the Emperor of the French,
let them induce him ‘l.O withdraw his army from Italy.
(Hear.) He now only so :w French troops substituted for
Austrian, a emaummat leer of which he perfectly disap-

proved, but which, he confessed, he had foreseen. A.
smaller matter had been brought before their lordships by
the noble marquis, viz., the compliment paid to Signor
BuoncomPagni. He entirely agreed with the noble marquis
in regretting that any mark of respect which w ts not posi-
tively necessary should have been paid to that gentleman.
He (the Earl of Malmesbury) was not a prude in politics,
nor influenced by any Quixotic feelings, but there was a
line, in his opinion, beyond which particular indulgence
should not be extended. If he believed that that the maxims
of the Christian religion were not sufficient to keep society
together, there was the code of honour established by men
which should be acted upon. Without a code of honour it
would be impossible for negotiations between different na-
tions to proceed, and the whole state of society would be
one of disruption. Let him remind their lordships what
Buoncompagni did when he stood in the sacred character of
Sardinian. Minister at the court of the Grand Duke of Tus-
cany. From the evidence of Mr. Scarlett, the English
Minister, he appears to have been if not the chief at least
one of the most active conspirators in bringing about the
revolution in Tuscany and in hurling the sovereign from
his throne. To English minds this was almost incredible.
Let him suppose that the Sardinian or any other foreign
Minister at the British court was discovered conspiring with
the Irish agitators or any other band of conspirators for the
purpose not only of violating their oath, and breaking the
law, but of actually driving the sovereign from her throne.
Such was the case in Tuscany; and before the ink was dry
which signed away the Grand Duke's power over his
subjects, Signor Buoncompagni, having been accredited to
him as the King of Sardinia's Minister, sat almost in the
place of the Grand Duke, inasmuch as he was one of the
royal commission who managed the whole affairs of the
duchy. Revolutions were revolutions, and they did not
expect to hear of them without many and perhaps great
crimes ; but there was no reason why those who took part
in them should receive useless and unnecessary complimwe ents.
Therefore he was perfectly unable to understand, as ll as
the noble marquis why our charge d'affaires went, though
, now apparently without orders, in official dress to the levee
M
lof . Buoncompag,ni. If he received no orders to attend
' that official reception, of course these remarks went
nded that
for no-
thing; but he (the Earl of Malmeebury) apprehe
their lordehips had too great a respect for public morality
to feel for oleo moment that such conduct could be excused.
(Hear, hear.) He had only one word to say with regard
to Savoy, and that was to express his surprise that no state-
ment had been :mule to the house concerning that scheme.
Considering the footing which, he was glad to say, the
noble lord at the head of the Government had estahlished
with the Emperor of the' French, it appeared to him that
her Majesty's Government ought to be perfectly clear and
well informed upon the subject. Did the Emperor of the
French mean, or did he not, to annex Savoy to France ?
The question was a short one, And easy to ask, and it ought
to be easy for his Majesty to airsVer. When her Majesty's
Government first had an idea that the annexation of Savoy
was contemplated, they ought to :lia,Vo lest no time in put •
ting categorical questions. Whs.? Lord Cowley was ap-
plied to on the subject, he said not on ly there was no treaty,
but no intention on the part of the Emperor of the French
to annex Savoy ; but it appeared that so: e. her Majesty h
's
Government had had communications wit.
the Frenc
Government, and that some proposals had been made re-
specting the annexation of Savoy. Now, he e,eished to know
what were the impressions on the minds of the Government
with regard to this matter ; and if they had reCeived any
answer from the French Government, they could perhaps
tell whether such a consummation was likely to take place.
If the subject was of such immense importance to Europe
as people generally supposed, they ought to expect and press
for an answer from her Majesty's Government, unless they
were of opinion that it was not for the public benefit to give
a reply.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said the noble earl,
and the noble marquis who made the motion, had mixed up
two questions which were totally disconnected, for he had
assumed that the annexation of Savoy to France was to be
part and parcel of the annexation of the Central States of
Italy to Sardinia. No such connection existed, and although
unfortunately the contingency of the annexation of Savoy
to France had been admitted into the discussion which had
taken place, he for one believed that such a scheme would
not now be carried out. (Hear.) He believed, and strongly
hoped and trusted, that the consolidation of a strong Italian
Government by the junction of the liberated duchies would
be effected. The feelings of the house and the country were
very strong against the one proposal, and very much m fa-
vour of the other. The Marquis of Clanricarde then taunted
the Marquis of Normanby with inconsistency in blaming
the Government for giving their moral support to the pro-
visional governments of Italy, alluding to what the noble
marquis had done as English ambassador at Paris during
the revolution, and referring especially to his having, four
days after the revolution, written home to his own Govern-
ment to say that they should tender their support to M.
Lamartine, as the head of the provisional government. He
confessed he had listened with extreme pain to the speeches
delivered both in the last and the present year by the noble
marquis. He believed that very few but the noble marquis
would have spoken as he had done with reference to the
Italians struggling for their liberation from the most despotic
and oppressive Government which perhaps ever existed in
a civilised age. (Hear.) The noble marquis's information
was as entirely incorrect as his political reasoning. Ile said
he had long resided in Florence, and was well acquainted
with the country, but it often happened that a resident
who attached himself to a particular creed or party knew
less of the condition of the country than a mere casual
visitor. (Hear, hear.) That was precisely the case of the
noble marquis. The noble marquis instanced Milan, where
he said that under the new Government taxation had in-
creased 15 per cent., but considering that during the last
two years the principal crops—viz., wine and silk—had
failed, the condition of the people was not so bad as might
have been expected. But why did not the noble marquis,
who was so much interested in the finances of Northern
Italy, go to Venice, where the property of people was sold
because their yearly income was not sufficient to defray the
taxes they were called upon to pay ? Surely that might
bo called confiscation. (Hear.) He had seen the reform
agitation, and he recollected many contested elections, and
he must say he never in his life saw among all classes and
throughout the whole of any town such order, unanimity,
and such happiness as he had witnessed at Milan during
demonstrations of popular feeling. It was all very well to
say that a stranger might havebeen deceived, but a per-
son coming from a free country generally was supposed to
know something of demonstrations, and could easily col-
lect from his intercourse with different parties whether their
sentiments were real or not. He had also visited Parma,
and here he must say he was sorry that the noble marquis
opposite should have thought it necessary to bring in ques-
tion the personal conduct of the ruler of those countries.
For his own part he believed that among the wealth and
intelligence of the middle classes in those provinces there
was but one feeling, namely, an anxiety to get rid of the
system under which they had lived. There certainly were
documents in existence of which the signatures could not
be denied, and he warned the noble lord (the Marquis of
Normanby) that when those documents were laid before
the house and the country they would not redound to the
honour of the princes who had been removed from their
thrones. What: was the government existing at Bologna P
It was notorious that ire that country the government was
so bad that life and property were not secure from the rapa-
city of the Austrian commanders and the pillage of the
Austrian soldiers ; while, on the other hand, there was
no protection against the banditti and other malefactors of
the country. In one place 26 young men had been shot one
morning for mere ordinary delinquencies, and there was an
instance of a person being shot by an Austrian soldier for
having stolen about twopence in value of our money. He
was as anxious as any man for the maintenance of the tem-
poral possessions of the Pope ; and looking at the state of
things in Europe, it was his deliberate opinion that it was
most desirable for the Protestant states that the Pope should
be in the independent position of a temporal sovereign. He
was sorry there should be so much delay in settling the
Italian question, but he thought that everything that could
be done to strengthen the Governments in Northern Italy
ought to bo done as speedily as possible. He defied the
noble marquis to produce at that table the list of the repre-
sentatives of Tuscany and Bologna, and show there could
be found a more admirable collectionof persons to represent
the interests of those countries. Among the number were
two princes, 29 marquises and counts—and among them the
oldest historical names-12 knights, 6 men of high military
rank, 12 professors, 4 ecclesiastical dignitaries, 4 judges, I
doctors, 2 engineers, and 5 manufacturers. The provisional
government of that country were placed in this position,
that they had the revolntionary party, which it was very
difficult for them to restrain, to deal with, and they were
now called to go to a new election, while at the same time
they saw their enemies were making preparations, not for
new elections. but possibly for a renewal of the war. It was
a positive fact that Austria was constantly sending addi-
tional troops into the Papal countries, and 800 men had
lately been despatched from Trieste to Ancona. He had
thought it right to make these remarks, because he consi-
dered:the provisional government of Italy and the people
of Italy had been most unfairly treated by the noble lord
opposite. His noble friend might go from one end of that
country to the other, and walk about the towns at all
hours in a great deal more safety than he could ever have
done while it was under the Austrian rule. At the
expelled
then by
established
theablisrheved revolution
wasion
sameiik time, it must be remembered that after the Grand
tGhoev Government rnwnai en was
of 0
eleBr4tBb, r
oawnnd the
b y
party then in power, the Grand Duke gave in his adhe-
sion to no party,and
honour of the persons who then composed that G
but when he felt secure, he totally Government ;
abolishedl the established
state of things, and re-institutedca 't
the fact was that the present state capital
Italya punishment. But
demanded the
utmost attention, and our Government should lose no time
in endeavouring to see them properly settled.
Earl GRANVILLE explained that the despatches
had been last received nCowley
from Lord madeo
allusionwhich
whatever to territorial acquisitions by the
French Gov ern •
ment.
After an observation from the Earl of AI ALMESIIITRY,
which did not reach the gallery,
The Earl of CARDIGAN protested against the evacua-
tion of Rome by the French troops. It might be judicious
to withdraw the troops from Northern Italy, but if Rome
were evacuated the lives of the Pope and the cardinals would
not be worth an hour's purchase. So hateful had the Papal
Government become to the people of Rome, that the pre-
sence of a strong force of foreign troops was absolutely ne-
ceseary for their protection.
The Earl of DERBY said that the house need not be
under the least apprehension that he was going to follow,
much less reply to, the very discursive speech of the noble
marquis opposite. lie agreed with the noble lord the Pre-
sident of the Council that the papers having been laid on
the
table of both houses only on the previous day, any frther
discussion on the motion of his noble friend would be pre-
mature. (Hear.) Still less did he think it wonld be desirable
to follow the noble marquis from Italy to Ireland, from the
biography of the nobles and princes of Italy to the noble
marquis's own reminiscence, of the time when he presided
over an institution for the promotion of civil and religious
liberty, or to the history of the old Catholic Association, or
even the account of the disciples of Dr. Cullen, all topics upon
which the noble marquis had aroused, and, no doubt, to
some extent enlightened their lordships. He (asord Derby)
had Lot been to Italy for 38 years, and therefore had
escaped the ignorance of its affairs, which had been said to be
the result of a2O years residence in the country. (A laugh.)
Neither had he paid it one of those sudden visits from which
it was said such sudden illumination could be derived. But
he should not discuss these contradictory opinions "non
nostrum tantas compenere lites ;" this, however, he would
7a?,,, that the Italian topic was becoming every day more
Inn ,ortant, and could not be i,.2:noi od. At present he joined
- deprecating discussion ; but' there were one or two points
upon which ha would a word. 1 wished, in
first
place,
place, to know
the table contained
whether the papers which had been laid on
'ned the latest inf,lrmation respecting the al-
legedcontemplated annexation
had received
vernmenttentions of the Emperorany information as to the present in-
(Hear.) If the noble earl of the French on the subject.
he was compelled to could not give him that informa-
tion Government had not acted ingenuously
to the conclusion either that
Parliament, or that there i, with the Houses of
thew and the Cabinet of tile Tiusilenct the harmony betweed
so touch stress. As he understceed
Tuileries upon which they laid
table contained the answer of the French Government
6overnment down
apers laid on the
to July last; but whet he wanted to know was Whlttter any