The Sun.
London, England, 1860-02-18 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 18, 1860.

one to which they might be proud to belong ? At least, let
the militia not be disembodied without some slight recogni:,
servilocTeNuspoefualciedTitudeserving young officers.
toheFatBtOenljtiponMoßf house to
GRIFFITH
the
use vtiiich soldiers off duty were in the habit of making
of
their belts and buckles, which had been found by
experi-
ence
to be injurious to the safety of the public ; and wished
to ask the Secretary of State for War whether it was essen-
tial to any military duty that soldiers off duty should wear
equipments which were only necessary to support side-
arms, the wearing of which had been long dispensed with
on such occasions, and whether, therefore, the consideration
of the public safety might not, in the absence of any mili-
tary necessity, reasonably induce the military authorities to
discontinue the practice of allowing soldiers to wear such
belts and buckles when off duty ; and also moved for a copy
of any correspondence or return that may have occurred be-
tyre= the police and the military authorities on the use
which soldiers Off duty Were in the habit of making of their
belts and buckles. lie recommended` that as' the soldier
used his belt for improper purposes he should not be allowed
to wear it when off duty.
Gan. UPTON vindicated the character et the soldiers ai
a body, and thought that they should not be visited with
g mark of disgrace. (Hear.)
suce"apt.
_said the offences were compara-
nenT among 6,000 men were only 30
lr. Inion the highest number was 16i,
ni v eo
one
fye
ewa
noe
that was 8 per annum, In wither there were no offences
at all.
HIGHWAYS BILL.
Mr. BARROW wanted to know if it was the intention
to proceed with the highways bill that night.
THE CHINESE WAR.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY wanted to know what would
be the likely expense of the war in China. It was quita
clear that a vast body of men could not be moved from
India except at a great expense. He also wanted to know
if any portion of the expense of moving that body of men
was to be borne by India, and how the expense of the
transport of the troops to China was to be defrayed,
Sir DE LACY EVANS said a credit had been spoken of
towards the Chinese War of L 500,000, but for such a war
that sum was quite a bagatelle. There was.no glory to be
gained in a war with China, which he thought had been
owing to an injudicious selection of agents in that empire.
The war he considered to be a very grave affair, espeoially
considering the great distance they were from China. He
found that among other munitions of war siege artillery had
been embarked, and he should like to know for what pur-
pose.
General PEEL said he found the amount of the army
estimates to be £14,800,000, to which £1,000,000 was to be
added for the disembodied militia, anti £500,000 for the
war in China. A part of the force to be sent from India
to China consisted of native regiments, and as to the ex-
pense, it appeared to him that £500,000 would not cover
the outlay which had already been incurred. Therefore
there must be considerable additional expenditure on ac-
count of that war. Now he (General Peel) might be per-
mitted to say that he had not exceeded his army estimates
in 1858 by a single shilling. One thing he could not under-
stand, and that was how the men of the native army had
been paid. If they had not been paid by the Indian
Government they must be paid in one shape or another.
114; further wanted to know whether the men who remained
in India were to remain at the expensel of the Indian
Government.

ioz% 9f thi

with France, .but if this treaty passed
,we never couldtill
war'came prohibit the export of coal to France withbut .
at 'the same time prohibiting it to all other countries.
But the -cnielfron was not as regarded France, but
any othernation. - Here was a power given to the Crown
when Parliament was not sitting to prohibit at once, byan
order in council, the exportation of coal to the whole world. ,
He did not desire to put it hypothetically that this country
was at war with France ; but suppose we were at war with
Russia or the United States, we had the power to advise
the Crown by an order in council to prohibit the exporta-
ot:ehvfde,en
dropped.
exporta-
tion of coal to any country whatever. Now, he would take
the case which the noble lord himself put as to the treaty
with Russia. In that treaty there was a clause by which
we engaged not to prohibit the exportation of coal to Rus-
sia without at the same time prohibiting it to all the rest
of the world. Now that clause, he thought, was very
reasonable, and did not interfere with the power of the
Crown. No one 'could suppose that an order in council
would be framed in so foolish a manner as to say that if we
went to war with America we should merely prohibit the
exportation of coal to America. Therefore, he said, this
was a gv‘estion which deserved the most serious considera-
t!..C.7, Of Parliament. This was not the time to discuss the
details of the treaty ; but the noble lord talked of going into
committee on Monday night on the duties on wines, spi-
rits, and manufactured articles under this very treaty.
Suppose the house assented to that, and agreed to repeal
those duties, he apprehended that no British Minister
would be found to advise the Crown to sanotion such a
measnre without the assent of Parliament. But suppose
they agreed to repeal those duties on Monday, and some
other day they were asked to surrender that power and
would not agree, what would the fliperer of the French.
0,), ? 110 syoeld pay 1-"," lam one of the contracting par-
ties to this treaty ; and I ask for it as a whole. You have
struck out clause 11, and I won't have the treaty unless I
have it in the form in which I first accepted it." lie
(Sir H. Cairns) asked them, were the Government goin g
to ask the assent of Parliament to this 11th section ? Sup-
pose Parliament did not assent, had the Government any
assurance from the Emperor of the French that he would
acoept the treaty without the 11th section ? and if so,
were the Government prepared to state that they. would
come down to the house and ask the house to rescind any.
modifications of the customs duties which they had prevl=
that Parliament had a right to have
the Government,
sbayid the hon. and learned gentleman
o thisn
Lsl
oyqr
question
oa
jss
till
u.? I
isn
sHsweEesLra
eiLdd
could This imagine, nor could any constitutional lawyer
imagine, that at the end of the session, when Parliament
is prorogued, witmhigatoehilusudottmlaemenyoantah,cetz bdealyn.g passed on the subject,
a mere resolution would govern the matter if the treaty was
therefore the whole question fell to
regard to some other questions of the
he might have an opportunity
, 11031 hf: ertnra nahg ground.
and
answering r
subjectnlvi learned
dr
nt
Mr. WILLIAMS, previous to the house going into com-
mittee on the army estimates, complained of the short time
which had been allowed to members to discuss these esti-
mates, which, though oomprising 2,000 or 3,000 items, were
only delivered on Wednesday last.
Mr. S. HERBERT, in reply to a question by Mr. D.
GRIFFITH, which had been asked at an earlier period of the
evening relative to soldiers being allowed to wear their belts
when off duty, stated that all he could say was, that the
Commander-in-Chief had the subject under his considera-
tion. His royal highness also intended bringing into opera-
tion a military police, a system which had had great success
in some garrison towns, and which he hoped would put an
end to complaints of this description.
ARMY ESTIMATES,
The house having gone into committee,
Mr. S. HERBERT rose to bring forward the army esti-
mates. He said before he went into the statement which it
would be his duty to make, he would answer dui question
put by his hon. and gallant friend opposite (Col. Herbert),
who asked whether there would be any sum required in ad-
dition to the £soo,ooo'vote of credit for the Chinese expe-
dition. First, let him say that the amount of the force of
that expedition was greatly exaggerated, for it was not an
additional force, bat one "going to relieve four battalions at
Hong Kong. The two votes of credit altogether would
amount to about £900,000, and when they came to be dis-
cussed that would be the best time to go into the . question.
He apprehended that some charge would fall upon the East
India revenue,which must be arranged with them afterwards.
The hon. gentleman behind him (Mr. Williams) said, he
had taken an unfair advantage of him in bringing forward
these estimates so suddenly. There was some cause which
delayed the circulation of the totes, but he thought,
looking at the state of public business in the house, and the
necessity of having the financial statement at an early period,
the house would agree that upon the whole it was for the
convenience of the public service that the naval and military
estimates should be brought forward at the earliest period.
It was true these estimates, though not quite so large as the
hon. member, imagined, were unquestionably enormous.
(Hear.) Bt if they glanced at the estimates for last year as
compared with those for the present year, they would find
that his hon. and gallant friend (General Peel) received last
year a considerably larger sum than he should receive this
year. Now, what was the difference between the two esti-
mates ? Last year they amounted to £13,200,000 ; this year
to £14,800,000, making a difference of £1,600,000; that.wae,
the presont estimate'exceeded that of last year by £1,600,0)0.
The committee would naturally want to know what had
caused this enormous increase. Well, if he had to consider
in what manner ho should expend to the greatest advantage
of the country whatever sum of money was voted in the
estimates, whether it was better to do it by an increase of
forts, by laying in stores of those now armaments and
implements which were necessary by the change that science
had introduced into the art of war, and which other coun-
tries in Europe were rapidly adopting, and which we could
not ourselves neglect to adopt without seriously injuring
the power and influence of this country ; if he had the
choice, if money were put into his hands, and he was told
to expend it in the manner most likely to increase the
strength of tho army, he would not expend it on men, be-
cause at the end of the year when the men were paid they
had nothing to show for it towards the future strength of
the country. They had their security with the men they
employed while they employed them' but they were not
stronger in arms or material, of which they ought to have
a large stock for the future, irrespective of what they might
want at present. The particular kind of store or armament
we had been most deficient in for some time had been small
arms and rifled guns, and the expenditure en these arms was
necessary,. net only for the land but for the sea service.
They would see in these estimates, in the store vote, that
there was an enormous outlay, amounting to something'
little short of a million for arms, including what was re-
quired for the navy He did not think it would be possible,
looking at the rapidity with which armaments of this de-
scription were made abroad, and the enormous strength that
this added to the navy, to have permitted for a moment VI e
manufacture of the best weapons. That was his reason for
the expenditure of so large a sum. But it was necessary
especially to hasten on the manufacture of these rifled guns
which had shown themselves valuable in the war in Italy,
and which on board our ships might be of a value and im-
portance which no one had yet estimated. He now came to
what had been done with regard to these forces. In a dis-
cussion the other night, he said it was an error in the form
of the estimate having no distinction between the vote for
the embodied militia, and the vote for the line, because in
point of fact they were both battalions of infantry, and
should be both put together. If they wished to understand
what they were going to do they must take votes 2,3, and
4 together. Last year the amount of these votes was
£4,564,000; this year it was £5,498,000. He assumed that
they were going to have a large disembodied militia. He
had taken in this estimate the troops in China. If by some
good fortune that calamitous war was soon ended those men
would come to England without disturbing his estimate,
because they were already borne upon it. The Govern-
mnent thought it better to maintain a larger body of the
regular force, and to disembody the militia. Was it right
to maintain in time of peace an embodied militia, which
ought to be their reserve in time of war, or fear of war?
He entirely dissentedfrom the doctrine which had been ad-
vanced that night, that all the militia ought in turn to be
embodied. He could not conceive anything more likely to
give them all the evil of a disembodied militia, without giv-
ing them anything in return. H 3 was ashamed to say he was
the first to embody them, but he did so when they were en-
gaged in the war with Russia, when the efficiency of the
militia was of very little consideration. They were called out
simply as a channel for recruiting the line. It might be said
that was an expensive process, because the men got two
bounties. Tkat was true, but still they got the men. It was
an emergency, and in an emergency they must proceed be-
yond standard rules. It was justified in that case as well as
in the case of the Indian mutiny. They must recollect that
When they were doing that they were ruining their militia,
inasmuch as they took the men just as they were becoming
efficient. He thought the country had never appreciated the
services of the officers of the militia in that respect. He
thought that in future it ought to be laid down that they
would not embody the militia in time of peace. Another ob-
jection was that when the militia was embodied, it was com-
posed of the very clasaitho would go into the line, and they
thus narrowed their recruiting ground for the line, and they
were thus raising a competition against themselves. Per
these reasons the embodied militia ought to be dispensed with
as soon as possible. There was a considerable addition to the
force which they took this year ; it amounted to nearly 20,000
men—he was not speaking of that which was borne, but
that which. was voted last year. A largo portion of these
men were transferred from India to China. They had raised
a second battalion at home. They had raised twe batteries
of field artillery at home in the place of those who went
from here to China, and it was the intention of Government,
looking to the deficiency of artillery in this country, and
looking also to the improbability of their being any artillery
sent from India, that there should be an increase in that
force, and it was proposed, therefore, to add a brigade, which
was equivalent to a battalion, a brigade of garrison artillery,
and a brigade of field artillery. It was proposed, also, to
raise an addition to the force of engineers to a small extent.
The reason for that might be shortly stated. They had at
home one, broken half battalion of engineers. They had
got a very great increase in all works which required
engineering superintendence, and they had found this
year, as they found last, that the labour of sappers was
not only effective, but economical. This yea? a strike
took place at Woolwich, the works were stopped, and
the difficulty was removed by the employment of sappers,
who completed the somas, end he believed at a less cost than
if the regular workmen had been employed. Another rea-
son was, that they had not a sufficient number to give a fair
relief to those who were engaged abroad. Moreover, engi-
neers were in such request that it required a constant exer-
cise of authority to keep them out of civil employment. For
all these reasons the Government had thought proper to ap-
ply for an additional half company of engineers. That would
account for two brigades of artillery, and one and a half bat-
talion of sappers. It was proposed to take an augmentation
of 4,000 men in a manner that would meat easily enable them
to effect a reduction when the additional forces came home
from India, namely, by raising each company of infantry at
home from 80 to 100 men. They could most easily reduce
them by that means, and that was important, because after
all they had got an army which was amply sufficient for
their purpose, if they could secure their proper distribution.
If they had raised additional battalions instead of increas-
ing the strength of the companies, they would be obliged,
when they effected a reduction, to disband the officers,
which was objectionable on several grounds. They had
raised, a battalion of invalid artillery, commanded by
i major,was
who had been himself a private soldier, and whose
Buie
engaged in training artillery volunteers.
also,
actively
The whole of their army now amounted to 240,000 men,
inclading the 20,000 additional men to be raised ; but it was
dispersed in every quarter of the globe. It was said that
that was a large and disproportionate force when compared
with the population of this country. But see the propor-
tion between this and foreign countries. England, with a
population of 23,000,000 had an army of 220,000, or 1 to
yipmuroioofl
upl
returni
ssoo,
r7natBsi
4w,0,
ocinhaosaolo d,2fm2b
made
an
onteoogatr mwm7a2oe ypn; 0
rr, ofQb e i
1 three i
Austria,r3utiBo years ago)
ihtroi
to
51,81 i h80020no8:us0;
Prussia,, 10, d Fa( on'
uhda 1 sne ea: r v:l' thisoe7ar3rmillions,
1 i
—or the proportion of 1 to 95 ; Russia, 65 millions, and
tion of Ito 119. That comparison showed England as the
lowest in Europe, but it was not a fair one, because it must
be recollected that it Was not the am?), of England aionh

but of liadia and Australia, .the West Indies, Canada, and
their colonies spread over every part of the globe. If they
testei in that way, it would be 1 in 246, which was thejust
relative proportion, and a number unknown in modern
times. It was else common to say that their army was
the dearest in the world, but that arose in a great mea-
sure from the habits of the people, the higher scale of pay and provisions which existed hero beyond foreign coun-
tries. But see the proportions of officers in an infantry
regiment to each company, as compared with others. In
England it was 3, in France 3, in Austria 4, Prussia 6, and
Sardinia 4. In England there were 23 men to each officer,
France 22, Austria 26, Prussia 19, and Sardinia 19, and so
on in the same proportion with the cavalry and artillery.
Deducting the Indian depots, we had on the Ist of April,
last year, 87,000 men. This year we shall have, by the
augmentations and additions he had mentioned, 107,000
men, but from that they would have ultimately to deduct
the whole of the disembodied militia. On that point he
must ask the house the same indulgence as had been granted
to his predecessor, as to the time at which the militia regi-
ments should be disembodied. That must depend upoe cir-
cumstances, but at the same time ho was most anxious that
it should be completed within the present year. The only
change he intended to make as to the men in this vote was,
though a small matter, of some little importance. Now that
the general term of enlistment was limited to 10 years, the
existing regulation as to good conduct pay scarcely offered
sufficient inducement to young soldiers to re-enlist at the
end of that period. He proposed, therefore, to shorten the
period at which good conduct pay should commence, under
the belief that this would hold out such an inducement. It
was unnecessary for him to mention the number of field
guns which they had. The change now making in that de-
partment by the substitution of the Armstrong gun showed
that there were eight new batteries, and the hon. and gal-
lant general (Sir De L. Evans) need not be alarmed at 12 of
Armstrong's guns having been sent to China, for all the
home batteries would shortly be armed with these guns.
He would say, in passing, that his reason for sending these
Armstrong guns to China was in order to test them in field
practice more effectually and More economically than could
be done at home. The questions next arose, having got
these men—How were they commanded ? How were they
practised ? How were they clothed ? How were they armed?
How were they fed, and what was their state of health ?
The first vote would' answer the question as to how they
were commanded, and It was one which excited a good deal
of attention and jealousy and complaint in that house—he
meant the staff. (Hear, hear.) He was not one of those who
was inclined to make a run at the staff as being unneces-
sary, and that they should depend upon their regimental
rank. They should recollect that if they destroyed the staff
they destroyed the brain of the army, and left nothing but
the limbs. Before the Russian war we had in fact no staff.
Our officers were neither trained nor practised in staff ope-
rations, and the result was, that when they were suddenly
called upon to perform staff duties they failed. The matter
has, however, had the careful attention of every Govern-
ment since, and much had already been done to remedy
the deficiency then shown to exist. In the staff; two changes
had lately been made. The first had reference to the perma-
nent staff at the Horse Guards. Looking back for a period
of years, he found that they had a quartermaster-general
and an adjutant-general, the former of whom had been 40
years in that office, and the latter 20 years in his office. It
seemed to him (Mr. S. Herbert) quite obvious that the
system which left two men so long in such positions must
be defective; that it was impossible they could know any-
thing of the modern system of warfare, or keep pace with
modern improvements. It seemed to him, also, that it was
a great disadvantage to staff officers not to see the adminis-
tration of the army from above, upon what principle the
army was governed, and the whole mechanism by which the
machine was moved. It was, also a great advantage to the
Commander-in-Chief, as it enabled him to ascertain who
was the best administrator, and to put his hand upon the
man whohad the best headepiece. He had, therefore, pro-
posed to the Duke of Cambridge that, ia future, the head
office should only be held for five years. The Commander in-
Chief entirely concurred with his views, and he was glad to
think that the change thus made would be very beneficial to
the service. (Hear.) At the same time there were two pro-
visions attached to the change. One was that both these
officers should not retire at the same time, and thus place the
whole of the administration in the hands of new men (hear),
and the other that compensation should be given to the
officers who had accepted these appointments under the
impression that they were for life. (Hear.) With regard
to officers holding command on foreign stations, it had been
the practice to appoint a colonel to these pests, with the
temporary rank of major-general; but the Commander-in-
Chief found in practice that this restricted his choice,
and it was now proposed to give such officers the rank of
brigadiers. They would not have the same allowances as
if temporarily holding the rank of major-general, but as in
the case of Malta, where there wore two such officers, the
senior officer in command, and who was also Governor of
Malta, would hold the office of major-general. The same
would be the case at Gibraltar. These changes, it was be-
lieved would have a good effect, and place younger and
mere active officers at the disposal of the Ceinmander-in-
Chief. Last autumn there was a very general impression
in this country that the French army had got some pecu-
liar bayonet exercise which would give them a great ad-
vantage over everybody else, and it was also said, and he
believed truly, that there was a great deal more attention
paid in that country to the physical development of the
soldier than in England. He had communicated with the
Commander-in-Chief upon this subject, and Colonel Hamil-
ton, of the Guards, an exceedingly intelligent officer, was
appointed to visit France and examine into and report upon
these points. He did so. He came back stating that there
was not one movement of the new bayonet practice which
did not exist in our own army, and that so far from
the French officers themselves being aware of their supe-
riority in this respect, they only learned it from the news-
papers in this country. (A laugh.) They themselves were
very doubtful of its value, and most preferred the old
bayonet. But it was true that great importance was at-
tached to the physical training and development of the
French soldier, and with the best practical result. Colonel
Hamilton reported most favourably on this head, and under
this head it would be found that in the estimate he had
taken a MITI of money for the erection of gymnasiums in
one cr two of the .principal stations. 'With respect to the
Camp of Aldershott, he knew it was a sore point with hen.
members behind him, but after all that camp had been one
of the most useful institutions to the army we had ever had.
(Hear.) The men at the camp had practically tested 120 in-
ventions, many of them of great utility. There were fewer
desertions from Aldershott than from any other part of the
British :arniy— there was less drunkenness, less crime, and
less disease. In fact, the returns of mortality were so low as
to be almost fabulous. This might be attributed to the fact
in part that the soldiers sent there were young, but it
was also largely owing to the healthy position of the camp
and the ccesstant exercise in open air. (Hear, hear.) The
troops prided themselves on doing all that would be required
from them in a camp during a state of war. The Commis-
sariat consisted of four supernumeraries belonging to each
regiment, and had acted exceedingly well. Mr. Warriner,
who had been sent down to the camp to give instructions in
the exceedingly homely art of cookery, reported that the
soup made from meat contained 25 per cent. more nutriment
than he had seen elsewhere, that Aldershot loaves were 25
per cent. better than London bread, or in other words, that
four Aldershot loaves were equal to five London loaves.
(A laugh.) Another great improvement introduced was the
supply by the Commissariat of additional groceries to the
amount of lid. a day beyond the regular stoppage, and as
the purchases!were made wholesale, the soldiers had the ad-
vantage of either a larger quantity of goods for their money,
or better quality than they would otherwise have obtained.
(Hear, hear.) It was in contemplation to extend this sys-
tem, combined with equal net pay, to all stations of the
British army. Although at first it was looked upon with
suspicion, the troops were now quite convinced of the bene-
fits it conferred upon them. With regard to clothing, a
very great improvement, both as regards quality and make,
had been introduced, but the question of contract was still
undecided. In France, the contract system had worked so
badly, that they had resolved to abandon it_ For instance,
in Italy it was found that the soles of the men's boots
were actually pasteboard, not leather; their toes came
through them in a day, and they became quite useless. He
believed that a variety of modes of providing clothing
would give rise to a healthy competition. Next, how were
the troops armed, He believed that, on the whole, they
were the best armed troops in the world—(hear, hear)—
though no doubt some of them might bo still better.
There was a question which arose, not between the Whit-
worth and Enfield rifle, but the question was whether the
bore of the Enfield rifle was the proper one. There was
no doubt that the great fault of the Enfield rifle was its
weakness in the barrel, and many doubted whether a charge
of bayonets driven home would not altogether spoil the gun
for the purposes of shooting. Under these circumstances,
the iovernment had appointed a commission of officers to
teat the matter accurately ; and he hoped that, as practical
men, devoting their whole time to it, they would soon come
to a satisfactory conclusion. It might be asked, how could
they effect a change when they had so large a stock of the
bore in hand. They had in England peculiar facilities for
a change of this description. Their troops were scattered
over the world, and they could with ease, and perhaps with
advantage, divide their rifles and aannunition in the same
way. lie would now pass to the state of health of the army,
and he was happy to say that here a considerable irapreeo_
ment was to be found. In the household cavalry, tri. which,
from 1337 to 1856, the rate of mortality was 7 per thou-
sand, it was how 8.24. The cavalry of the line, in which the
mortality had Seeele 13.3 per thousand, was now 7.12, and in
all the other br ches of the service a like improvement was
to be seen. The mortality amongst the agricultural popu-
lation was 8 per thousand, and if they could get the army to
it, they would remove the stigma which had so long at-
tached to it. lie attributed the improvement principally
to the youthful ages of the men of which the army was
now composed. And now as to the volunteer corps. He
was afraid that there were many gentlemen present who
would quarrel with him for having this year taken no vote
for the training of the yeomen ; but his reason was, that
they had been regularly out for several years past, and
that he had felt it necessary to reduce the estimates in
every possible way. (
Hear.) With regard to volunteer
corps however, he had introduced a sum for the payment
of adjutants for the volunteer rifle artillery companies.
It appeared to him most important to give as regular and
as military an organisation as they could to those bodies.
• (Hear, hear.) It was impossible to over-estimate the
value of the feeliag which those corps had displayed ;
but there was ono point on which he thought it wise
to raise a warning voice. There was, he feared, ae
little too much disposition in the corps to runup the
number of members, wholly irrespective of the probable per-
manence of the corps. lie had seen it stated that the corps
should be of all ranks. Nobody could object to that prine
ciplo, but the question was, would those corps be permanent?ichl7veS
(Hear, hear.) His belief was that the corps which
upon extraneous support would not stand tho test of time,
and that therefore the principle could not be depended.
,upon.
The Government proposed to give the volunteers assistance
in the way of drillink. There was a doctrine abroad that
solidity was a thing not required by such corps, and that
less drill was required to make them effective. Military
men thought that the duty of irregular troops was more
difficult to do well than that of regulars. When people
talked of l-•ose order they meant loose drill; but it required
more drill to make efficient irregular than regular troops.
(Hear.) Gentlemen, then, would do wisely to insist as
much as possible on every necessary kind of drill, which
could not be too well done. It was also said that, provided
men shot well, it was unnecessary that they should be well
drilled ; but the highest military authorities in every nation
held that the best tirailleurs or skirmishers in the world
were the French, although proverbially the worst shots.
(Hear.)With regard to rifled guns the Government in-
tended to go to the trade for what the trade made, and to
confine themselves to those articles which they could best
wake. They therefore took, vote for £16,000 for additional
much inert', and hoped to have made, by the end of the finan-
cial
year, 3,000 rifled guns, and torinbuitlleil4,l
hbt statelltihipastnf Wt'hae
oir
g guns,
(-,ase of the Armstrong gilt's, it 'was so constructed that it could
be adapted to arty improved process, if any such should be
discovered, and that the country need fear no loss In the
manufacture of these guns, While on this subject he might
suv that the Enfield rifle was in the hands of our regular
troops, our embodied and disembodied militia, tho vo-
lunteer corps, and pensioners that might
ciaent ynum-
ppl for
them. Enfield produced at present a
sufficientber to supply all necessary demands. (Hear, hear.)

With respect to arsenals, it was not necessary to
multiply them, but it might be convenient to have
many depots. Well, then, we were sufficiently provided in
that respect. As to the objection made against us for ma-
nufacturing implements of war for France, Austria, and
Russia, it must be evident that while that was a profitable
industrial enterprise in time of peace, it would have the
effect in time of war of giving this country a monopoly of
the article. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. gentleman con-
cluded by thanking the house for the kindness with which
they had received his statement.
Mr. MASSEY having read the vote,
Mr. WILLIAMS moved that the chairman do now report-
progress, in order that members might have an opportu-
nity of considering those enormous estimates. (Oh, oh.)
Sir J. FERGUSSON did not think it right to use the
militia for the purpose of supplementing the regular army.
They should be considered as a force to be called out in case
of necessity. It would operate injuriously to the militia
force if they were only to be considered as a body from
which you were to recruit for the line. He hoped the
volunteer corps would be supplied with rifles on the best
pattern. (Hear, hear.)
NATIONAL DEFENCES.
Mr. HORSMAN wished to know how soon the report
of the Commissioners appointed to inquire into the national
defences would be placed in the hands of members, and how
soon the Government decision upon it would be communi-
cated to the house.
Mr. S. HERBERT said he did not wish to compromise
either the Government or the commissioners by propound-
ing a crude scheme on an important subject like this. The
volunteers had been told that they might have the short
rifle substituted for the long one, but they had come to the
conclusion, and he thought a right one, that the long rifle
was preferable to the short one. As to the militia, he might
state that 45,000 were to be disembodied. He hoped
shortly to be able to state the course the Government meant
to adopt with reference to the report of the commission
to which the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Horsman) had
alluded.
Sir R. PEEL rose with great reluctance for the purpose
of entering a respectful but a serious protest against the
enormous extravagance of our• public expenditure. Year
by year the estimates were increasing ; at the present mo-
ment the effective of the British army was twice as great
as it was a few years ago; while if anybody rose for the
purpose of suggesting any extensive supervision of the
public expenditure, he was met by a supercilious official
sneer, and cold water was thrown upon his proposals.
(Hear, hear.) His right hon. friend (Mr. Ellice) said that
a bitter pill had been administered to the country. At all
events it was a pill ere: Bien dore®. (A. laugh.) But, al-
though their senses had been lulled into tranquillity by the
eloquent appeals addressed to them, the time would come
when these appeals would be no longer effectual. Some-
thing more than eloquence was required to induce the coun-
try year after year to add to the national burdens by voting
these enormous sums of money. (Hear, hear.) The house
had now heard three financial statements. If anything
could induce them to accept almost every item of the bud-
get it was the eloquence and ability with which the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequerinsinuated himself into their pockets
last Friday.(Hear, and a laugh.) Then, as to the Navy
Estimates, if it were possible to convince the house of the
expediency of every proposal then made, the straightfor-
ward simplicity, the professional skill, and ability of his
noble friend (Lord C. Paget) would have that effect. (Hear,
hear.) And, lastly, if anything could win entire approval
of the Army Estimates, it was the grace and the clearness
with which the right hon. gentleman had just exposed
the wants of that service. (Hear, hear.) But on the
three great financial field-days of the year it was not
difficult to dress up such proposals in gaudy attire, and to
excite applause by the skill with which they werepresented
to Parliament. The effect of skill and of eloquence
soon passed away, and the stern realities of life soon
came back to them. Here they were, with a deficit of
£10,000,000, voting £30,000,000 sterling for the national
defences Perhaps the house would allow him to
state one or two facts on this subject. Tho Army
Estimates of 1859-GO showed a decrease in comparison with
1858-9 of £9,695; whereas in the present year (ono of
peace, be it remembered, Parliament was called upon to
vote an increase of £1,982,000. (Hear.) Last year the navy
estimates showed an increase of £961,810 ; whereas this
year there was a net increase over those of 1859-60 of
£1,025,000. This was a most serious and appalling state
of things. Tho right hon. gentleman had alluded to an
estimate of population as bearing on this question, but
nothing could be more fallacious than any such test. He
(Sir R. Peel) had ascertained that in France the expendi-
ture for national defences amounted to one-half the public
income ; in Russia, one-third ; Austria, as every one knew,
was entirely crippled ; in Prussia this expenditure was one-
fourth of the public revenue; in Belgium, one-third; in
Sardinia, 40 per cent.; in Holland, one-fifth; in Switzer-
land, one-tenth ; and, as to Spain, it was hardly possible to
form any estimate respecting an army which took three
months to go about 15 miles. (Laughter.) The right hon.
gentleman had referred to the French budget. 1N ow in the
budget of 1861 the effective of the French army, like that
of the year previous, was 392,000 men and 83,000 horses.
The total military expenditure amounted to £13,800 ,000,
while the English army estimates were £14,842,000 with-
out the militia, showing an excess over the French esti-
mates of £1,042,000. (Hear.) This proved the extravagance
of our expenditure. The French army contained 56,000
men and 58,000 horses more than the effective of the Bri-
tish army and yet we spent £1,042,000 more than our
neighbours. (Hear.) In 1835-6, the effective of the British
army was 80,000 men; in 1850, 99,000 ; while this year
the number was 143,000 men, exclusive of India. Now, it
was very remarkable that in 1850 the British soldier cost at
the rate of £4l per man, whereas in the present year, taking
the whole of the charges for the land force and the number
of rank and file, the cost was about £46 per man—
£s more than in 1450. This was a fact which re-
quired the attention of his right honourable friend.
(Hear, hear.) Notwithstanding our present costly arma-
ments, the report of the Committee of Public Safety,
just alluded to by the right hon. gentleman (Mr.
Horsman) declared that £10,000,000, if not £20,000,000,
would be required to place the country in an efficient state
of defence. Now, after the enormous sums of money annu-
ally granted by Parliament, it was too bad to come down in
a time of peace and ask for such enormous additions to the
estimates. (Hear.) Up to 1850 the state of the country was
most satisfactory, but all of a sudden afterwards they had
been constantly told up to the present time that all
was wrong, that the country was absolutely undefended,
and Parliament had, in consequence, voted money without
grudging. • He must say that they ought to give credit to
those to whom credit was due for tho defenceless condition
in which the country was stated to be, and the country, at
this important crisis of its political history, had a right to
demand some explanation of those who for the last fourteen
years had, almost without interruption, held political power
in this country. (Hear.) He said that they were at peace
with the world, but at all events he was correct in saying
that they were at peace with all Europe. He would not
look to China—they had been asked not to mention that
subject—but, though he did not allude to it, the house must
feel the confident assurance that as long as the present Pre-
sident of the Board of Trade was in the Cabinet, there could
not be any war with China. (Hear, and laughter.) He
know that the member for Ashton was no longer the mem-
ber for Birmingham, and no longer sat in those cheap seats
below the gangway— (laughter) but occupied a more
luxurious and dignified position on the Treasury bench—
(renewed laughter)—but still he was quite sure that the
right hon. gentleman considered all the emoluments wed
patronage of his office as mere dirt in comparison \vitt the
maintenance of his political morality. (Cheers and 18.-dghter.)
It was impossible, then, so long as that right ton. gentle-
man was in the Cabinet, considering the ly.awerful way in
which ho attacked in this house the noble member for
Tiverton on precisely a similar subjere'ohat there could be
any serious disturbance with China, (Hear, hear.) While
they were at peace with all {ire world they were voting
away £30,000,000 for arP:rlike purposes. He believed
that there had been se",ne little uneasiness with respecteer_
to France, more so thean for the last 10 or 20 year!. H
colltcted that' a few months ago they
even Ministers of
panics of invasion and attack, which were seized with
promote—
(hear)--and he did not think it a very manly
State and Ministers for War condescended to ptrhoimno..tefo—r
Mireisters of State to endeavour to shirk the responsibility.
which really belonged to them, and place on a lot of
country attorneys and easy-going provincials,,_ who were
the Minister for 'War not take a
forming themselves into volunteer corps.
would
right hon.
gentleman
ne
ra thatilrYl
purpose of
thoughvote this h
e yearw a fors
o b the e
d t 0
tbkue but old-established
xle6tBtt force, rcfoe
houser,
tthheee
consider
se
adjutants' forage, and so on ;
those volunteer corps would cost the country ten times more
(Hear.) Here was a lot of country attorneys
athnadne.taa6yB_,oogooi;
g provincials costing the country a
great deal
of money, with a loose way of drill, as he had no doubt it
was. (Laughter.) He had the utmost contempt for that, for
he liked smartness in a soldier. (Hear.) In 1804, when the
volunteer corps were enrolled, they cost the country
£1,000,000; and Mr. Pitt obtained soon afterwards £500,000
more for them. Let the house take care that the same thing
did not occur mow et
the h
support were given to these volun
leer corps, the house might find that they were costing the
country a great deal more than they were worth. (Laughter.)
htl
there
ewmr
eoeu
were dt
a bs et
danger,o autfiyn oe thing
nhga t f
therer
iteonsdeweoaft
shnhe
sad,
whonge r
.cwo
Thea e s
a volunteer
or
otherlwuanrdtdeaeyi
rifleman. He told his friend that he was too stout; but his
friend replied that it was capital fun. (Laughter.) " Capital
fun I" he exclaimed, and mentioned to his friend that he
mthhai
elder beenes,
a and
din
t crawlinghat
ahSwitzerland,ieonreg c
oo
inieteahtneeddirhbaedi seen the volunteer riflemen
belliesn g o
out
ty
witht eha ecdogrepssi dwe
which
ifeohr
passed the whole night in the trees. Nevertheless, his
young friend rejoined that it was capital fun—that they had
their afternoon parade and patriotic lunch—(a laugh)—and
were going to have a ball in full dress uniform for the ladies,
an expensive band, a dinner, and all kinds of conviviality
quite unsuited to the rigid habitues of the army. (Hear,
hear.) Now if there existed any danger he would ask the
committee to increase the
regular army and navy, for
he concurred in the opinion of the noble lord
the late Commander-in-Chief in Scotland, that they
could not trust to these men. He observed that the
noble lord was no longer the Commander-in-Chief in
Scotland, but he hoped that his resignation had nothing,- to
do with the expressions he had used with regard to the
bvolunteer force. Another reason for preferring an increase
tho army and navy to these volunteer corps was afforded
y what Earl Grey said romewhere in the count. Th
noble earl stated that the reason he supported this ry
yellers e -
tear force was, because it was an anti-military movenvent.
w
Such an idea as quite unworthy the noble earl's pe,eition
and the office he formerly held. But was there are neces-
sity at the y resent moment for these volunteer corps ?
What did Lord Derby say in 1852 when asked whether he
would countenance them ? The nobly lord said—and this
was a manly way of looking at the matter instead of hum-
bugging about it—(laud laughter)—that his Government
was not prepared to give aid to the formation of volunteer
rifle corps, and he concluded that that conclusion was a
sound and reasonable decision. Wore the circumstances
of the country different now ? He imagined they were not ;
but at any rate there was the old established force of the
country—the militia, which might be increased, if need be,
instead of being disembodied. This question of national
defences had always been one of great difficulty with Mini-
sters. He well recollected that in 1852 the noble member
for the city of London brought in a Militia Bill, and the
noble lord the member for Tiverton came down with b's
amendment—(laughter)—and without the slightest desire
to displace the noble member for London, nevertheless

ousted that noble member from office on this very question
of national defences. (Continued laughter.) It seemed to
be different now. All the Ministers were perfectly agreed,
and, in fact, at the present moment we were under the
provisions of the 44th George 111,, cap. 51. He hoped
the committee would allow him to read—he would not,
using the language of the hon. member for Birmingham,
say the "rubbishing trash,"—but the extravagant talk
uttered throughout the country on the subject of the
rifle corps movement. One gentleman, called in the news-
paper report Mr. D. Seymour—he hoped not his hon.
friend the member for Poole—addressing a meeting some-
where in the country, expressed the opinion that the voltm •
tear movement was a sort of millennium. Mr. Seymour
delivered his oration at the beginning of December, and he
calculated that at that time there were 400,000 volunteers
in the country, and that in a few days the number would
reach 1,000,000. Surely the Minister for War did not
mean to spend £lO upon each man in so vast a host. (A
laugh.) Upon the same day there was a meeting of the
Pimlico Fencibles. (Laughter.) The chairman, more
moderate than the millennium gentleman—(a laugh)—
thought the enrolled volunteers then numbered 150,000,
while the Times of the same date bad no doubt that in the
aggregate they were more than double what they had been
three months before, when the number was calculated at
22,000. An hon. friend of his towards the close of the year
made a most amusing speech at a place called Eye. The
poet had well said—
" Where ignorance is bliss 'tie folly to be wise ;"
for the enthusiastic rifleman, addressing the Suffolk bump-
kins—(a laugh)—made their hair stand on end by stating
that there were hundreds of thousands of troops on the
other side of the Channel waiting to come across. (Laugh-
ter.) Really, when such extravagant language was need
to excite a national zeal for volunteer corps, the sooner a.
stop was put to it the better. Schools were turned to
strange purposes nowadays, and he was not surprised that
a rifle meeting had been held in St. Peter's School, Pim-
lico. One of the speakers, waxing very eloquent, indeed,
declared that he hoped to see the day when every man is
England, like the Swiss, would have a rifle hung behind
his door. (Cheers.) No doubt, there were a great many
riflemen in Switzerland, but those who cheered should re-
collect that we paid upwards of £30,000,000 for our army
.and navy. For his own part, he should like to see the stal-
wart youth of England turning their attention to some legi-
timate and useful pursuit, instead of hankering after firearms
and knickerbockers. (Laughter.) But the climax was still
to come. At the same meeting in Pimlico a Mr. Denman.
informed his auditors that in 1797 a body of 1,400 French
troops landed in Pembrokeshire, but were immediately dis-
persed by the red petticoats of the Welsh women seen on a
distant hill. (A laugh.) He must say that Mr. Denman
did not offer a very flattering suggestion to the gallant Pim-
lico Fencibles. (A laugh.) " But," continued the orator,
" Mr. Fox declared that England did not recover from the
effects of that descent for 20 years." (Laughter.) It was
certainly high time to "show up" meetings at which such
speeches were made. Perhaps the Committee would derive
a little amusement from the names of some of the rifle corps.
The leaders of the movement, judging from their absurd
nomenclature, seemed to have gone mad. (A laugh.) It
was a fact. Certain gentlemen, who had evidently been
reading Carlyle's _Life of Frederick the Great, were adver-
tising in the Times on behalf of a corps, to be called the
Six Foot Guards. (A laugh.) There were corps composed
of the stokers and pokers of the railways. He had already
mentioned the Pimlico Fencibles, but what did the Commit-
tee think of the Westminster Volunteers of St. John the
Evangelist ? (Laughter.) What St. John the Evangelist
had to do with rifle corps he could not for the life of him
understand. It was really too bad that so venerable a name
should be associated with a band of idle striplings playing
at soldiers. (A laugh.) There was the Volunteer Corps
of the Aldermen and Corporation of London, and last, but
not least, there was the Rifle Corps of the Inns of Court.
He admired the patriotism of lawyers, but nothing could
well be more absurd than the idea of a lot of barristers from
the Inns of Court meeting the cuirassiers of the Imperial
Guard in deadly conflict. (Laughter.) Sergeant Parry
seemed to be an active member of the corps. No doub3 that
distinguished legal luminary would earn a grade, and be-
come Sergeant-Major Parry. (A laugh.) The Sergeant was
kept in countenance by Dr. Balls—a capital soldier's name—
(a laugh)—Counsellor Bull, and his old friend of the time
of the French Conspiracy Bill, Lawyer Bodkin. (Laugh-
ter.) These gentlemen, and many more of the same kidney,
leaving the study of Coke and Blackstone, were devoting
their days and nights to Plutarch' s Lives, Caesar's
Commentaries, and The Rifle, How to use it. (Con-
tinued laughter.) How heavy lawyers expected to be able
to crawl along hedges upon their bellies and climb up trees
he could not comprehend—(a laugh)—and he hoped they
would not be very much offended if he applied to them the
somewhat apt quotation "1 medio tutissinzus ibis," which,
being literally translated, recant "You are a deal safer in
the Middle Temple." (Great laughter.) It appeared that
some of the riflemen had attained great proficiency in shoot-
ing. At Hythe the first prize was carried off by a genuine
Cockney. (A laugh.) Upon being asked how he had ac-
quired his extraordinary Ain and precision, "Oh l" said
he, " I live in London, and have had considerable practice
in shooting at the cats of my Brompton neighl)ours.."
(Laughter.) It was not, perhaps, of much consequence in
the depth of winter, but no man could tell what a seen.
London would present at the height of the season. Every-
body would be shooting at his neighbour's cat—(great
laughter)—and there would be ao end to the inhuman mu,
sacre of the feline tribe. (Prolonged laughter.) He trusted,
t however, that before that time a stop woad be put to the
volunteer movement. If the country was really in danger
let the Government, instead of subscribing £lO to a rifle
corps—as the Minister for War had done—give up their
official salaries in aid of the necessary measures of defence.
Wore there real danger, all classes of men would combine
to defend the institutions of the country. As it was, two
dukes of great territorial influence had had the courage to
decline to contribute to this movement because they con-
ceived it to be absolutely unnecessary, and it had received
no encouragement from the Royal family—who in case of
yd ao
nn gd etrhwe opualtdrobneagtheeofif ras tto
volunteerp
utthbemalls.elvHese forward—be-
yond aards ready
as any man to maintain the necessary strength and efil-
ciency of the legitimate defences ef the country, but he en-
tered his r.rotest against what ho believed to be a most ex-
' travaga.nt expenditure of the national resources. (Cheers.)
Colonel P. HERBERT said he differed from the hon.
baronet as to the value of the volunteer movement, which
he considered most valuable. With regard to the esti-
mate he thought a regiment of twelve companies most ob-
jectionable, and they were found most inefficient during the
late war.
Mr. H. BERKELEY begged to return his thanks to '
the Minister for War (Mr. Sidney Herbert) for the into-
rest he had taken in the volunteer movemet. The yeomanry
of the country formed an equally valuable force. H.
thought the volunteer movement a most constitutional
movement. It had been productive of most beneficial
effects in teaching the use of arms to the population, with-
out which they never could reduce their standing army!
The hon. baronet said the Royal family did not encourage
the movement, but look at the levee. That was a proof
the Queen looked with favourable eyes on this force. H.
again returned his thanks to the military authorities for
the encouragement and aid they had given to the volun-
teer system. (Hear, hear.)
The vote was then agreed to.
On the vote of £4,495,496 for the pay and allowances of
the land forces,
Colonel NORTH called attention to the efficiency of
the staff officers of the army, and hoped that, in his Vats-
ment, the right hon, gentleman did:not intend to east any
slur upon that staff.
After a few words from sir H. Verney, Col. Dickson,
Col. Knox, and Ca Dunne,
Mr. WILLIAMS moved that the Chairman report pro. •
gnu, and. ask leave to sit again.
The motion was agreed to without a division, and the
house resumed.
MUNICIPAL CORPORATION MORTGAGES, &e.,
BILL.
This bill was read a second time.
PACKET SERVICE (TRANSFER OF CONTRACTS)
BILL,
This Ell was read a second time.
ROMAN CATHOLIC CHARITIES BILL.
This bill was-road a second time.
Mr. PAULL-obtained leave to bring in a' bill to facill•
tate the erection of piers and harboursia Great Britain and
Ireland.
Mr. WHITESIDE obtained leave to bring in a bill to
amend the Settled Estates Act, 1856.
Several unoplosed returns were ordered, and the hone*
adjourned at a few minutes to one o'clock.

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