The Sun.
London, England, 1860-03-27 00:00:00

avowed that those who represented the National Temperance
Society had much more in view than the acquittance of
their consciences and the liberation of their souls, in wash-
ing their hands of all responsibility in connection with
a measure of this kind, than the prosecution of a real and
earnest opposition to it. Indeed, apart from their general
objections, they did Rot hesitate to say the bill was a great
improvement upon the existing system. With regard to
the other class, he would only say that he was quite sure
the house might pass an impartial judgment upon the bill,
both as it effected public policy and public morality.
Those who were adverse to the principle of the bill varied
greatly in the grounds of their opposition. But the answer
of the Government was, that there were two conditions
which they could not depart from. One of these conditions
was, that they could not consent to leave the sale of wine
at the mercy of the restricted channels now in existence.
That was a fundamental proposition. It rested en the
ground that the channels of consumption wore ludicrously
alarm. restricted. The other fundamental ground was, that the
Mr BENTINCK said that having refrained on a former channels for the sale of wine were unduly restricted in pro-
occasion from trespassing on the time of the house he would portion to the channels for the sale of other strong liquors.
now offer a few observations. The Chancellor of the Ex- It was stated to him by a deputation of licensed victuallers,
chequer was about to propose the repeal of the 7th Geo. as a plea for the efficiency of the present channels of con-
11., an act which was passed in the first place for three sumption, that there were sixty-three thousand houses
years as an experiment, and then made perpetual, licensed for the sale of spirits. It appeared unreasonable to
and was still in operation. The right honourable deny that in quantity at least such a number ought to be
gentleman intended to propose its repeal. The preamble of sufficient. But he found that though about 100,000 houses
the act recited the evilsJattending stockjobbing, and ho (Mr. licensed for the sale of strong liquors to be consumed on
Bentinek) was well aware that the practice of what was the premises, though beer was the natural drink of the
called time bargains was sanctioned by custom but not by population, and after that wine, no house could get a license
law. Custom, however, had not removed the evils in con- for the sale of wine which had not also a license for the
nexisn with time bargains. But there were many other sale of spirits. That was to offer a premium on the sale of
things which society tolerated, but which the Legislature spirits. He appealed, therefore, to the advocates of tem-
could not sanction. It would be remembered that the Le- perance and sobriety as to whether it was possible to justify
' gislature had suppressed gambling houses, and it had exer- that state of the law. But how did that state of things
cised a sound discretion in so doing. Now he should like work? The houses licensed for the sale of spirits were
to know upon what ground the police wore to be autherised 63,000 in number; but of that nnmber only 23,000 had
by the Government to break into houses of that description licenses for the sale of wine. Under these circumstances
to see whether gambling was carried on or not, when the he felt confident by anticipation of the judgment of the
Legislature was about to sanction a more extensive and a house when they were asked whether it would not be wiser
more mischievous system of gambling by many degrees to give increased facilities for the sale of wine than to ad-
than any other ever invented by the mind of man. Upon here to the present system. Then as to the quality of the
what possible ground could the present or any other Go- wine sold in public houses ; on that ground alone it would
vernment continue to suppress the practice of gambling if be requisite to alter the channels of sale and consumption,
they were now to sanction, by legislative enactment, time so as to admit of free competition. Every one knew the de-
bargains ? There was a name not to be mentioned to ears scription of wine sold in this country, and that with the ex-
polite applied to gambling houses, but he thought it was ception of the high priced wines to be had in hotels of a cer-
strictly applicable to the Stock Exchange. It was a perfect tain alass, what was sold as such was a mixture that no pen
Pandemonium. But whore did this proposal come from ? or tongue could describe. White wine, as sold in public
Why, from the right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the houses, was a mixture of fire and water ; and red wine was
Exchequer, who represented one of the seats of learning composed of the juice of the sloe, or Of other substances which
and virtue, piety and religion. (Laughter.) He proposed ma, be more baneful, with a strong infusion of some deserip
to the Legislature to sanction one of the most mischievous tion of spirits. The second proposition was fundamental
practices which ever prevailed in this country, and he (Mr. in respect of a useful and salutary measure such as that be •
Bentinck) thought that such practices could not be held to fore the house—namely, that whatever might be done with
be consistent with good order and public morality. (Hear, the control of the police and magistrates, the Government
hear.) would not be responsible for the extension of the present
ThoCH.ANCELLOR of the E XCHEQUER saidhe would licensing system. He made no reproach to the magistrates.
in the first place answer the appeal of the hon. gentleman Indeed, the bill was framed on the principle that confidence
the member for Norfolk. It was true he represented one of might be fairly reposed in them, in so far as intelligence and
the universities, and he would assure the hon. gentleman integrity went. But the licensing system imposed duties on
that although his constituency were among the most dis- the magistrates which it was impossible they could satisfac-
tinguiehed supporters of piety and virtue, yet they had not factorily discharge. It made them the judges, for instance,
—and they numbered 3,Boo—sent him a single remon- of the quantity of liquor which any number of human be-
stranco against the proposal, which had been published to ings could consume ; and so led to absurdity and inequality.
the world fora length of time, to repeal the act 7 Geo. 11, In some places the magistrates determined the capacity of
—Sir John Barnard's Act. Whether it would have the the population to consume strong drink was limited, and
effect which the hon. gentleman imagined he did not know, they accordingly limited the number of licenses. In other
but the principle upon which the Government had acted places the contrary principle prevailed. In Liverpool, for
was this that it was not wise to keep on the statute book a example, with a population about the same as Manchester,
pretended prohibition, which was constantly violated by the number of public houses was threefold more. If, then,
the sanction of that branch of the community which stood this matter was to be regulated by authority, it should be
in connection with those practises. There was a great con- regulated on a definite principle, so as to ensure uniformity
fusion of ideas in what had been stated by the hon. gentle- of action, and to give satisfaction and content to the people
man. The hen. gentleman lamented and deplored the of this country. But it was not only because the present
great temptations offered to young men on the Stock Ex- licensing system gave rise to inequality, and produced
change, and no doubt many resorted to that place who had heartburnings and discontent, that it was objectionable; it
less di: ception than means, from a desire to acquire a for • was, moreover, entirely inefficient. He (the Chancellor of
tune rapidly. The mutter was one to be regretted, but the Exchequer) had received a statement from certain li-
these things were not bad in themselves, but made so by tensed victuallers of Liverpool in opposition to the bill,
those who resorted to the Exchange for the purpose of which showed the moral tendency of the system of licens-
speculating. But that observation did not apply to the ing. These persons stated in that memorial that there were
Stock Exchange only, for all descriptions of dealing in the in Liverpool 1,526 licensed public-houses, and that in that
funds and in mining speculations, and in joint-stock banks, number there were 178 known to the police to be the resort
and in a quantity of other things, involved the principle of of thieves and prostitutes. And yet these houses were
regu-
gambling
when taken to by persons who had, from their larly licensed by the magistrates. That was the state of
limited knowledge and means, no business with them. things, and that was the system which, on moral groan's,
(Hear.) With regard ito time bargains, the question was the Government were asked not to meddle with. (Hear, hear.)
whether they were so had in themselves that the legislature The tendency of the present licensing system was to create a
ought to interfere with private discretion and to prohibit monopoly. Where there was a monopoly there were proprie-
them. This prohibition was perfectly ineffectual ; the law tary interests—or rather what were called vested interests ;
in question was an absolute dead letter, and had been so and, accordingly, such an interest had grown np in the
almost over since the day it was enacted, and for the sake licensing of public-houses, apart from the interest on the
of the respect in which laws should be held by the whole premises. The existence of that vested interest was one of
community, the laws ought, practically, to have some force the most formidable opponents to the effectual control of
in them ; they ought not to be passed by the legislature as the police and the magistrates over public-houses. When,
mere expressions of abstract opinion, but as instruments of therefore, it was proposed to him to rear up a new class of
government. The question was not whether foolish persons houses of the same description, his answer was it would be
might be tempted to ruin themselves, both in their fortunes to raise up the same system, and to make wine houses the
and morally, by dabbling in these time bargains, but nucleus of fresh vested interests, and so to impede the ope-
whether they were so essentially immoral as to make it rations of the power of the police and the magistracy. That
proper to proscribe them, like the practices carried on in a conclusion was the reason why he declined to present any
gambling-house. Even the transactions in a gambling-house hill to the house for placing wine licenses under the same
were not easy to define or describe, when it was sought to system as public-houses. Short of these two propositions,
put down the evil by law, and as no great philosophical however, to rest satisfied with the present licensing system,
nicety could be attained, it was requisite to include every- in connection with the sale of wines, and to create a new
thing which bore a resemblance to the evil in question. system of vested interests, such as had been created under
With regard to these time bargains, he was not prepared to the public-house licensing, there was no proposition for the
say, on the face of the facts within the knowledge of every- maintenance of good order in these houses that he was not
body, that there was anything essentially in the nature of willing to receive and entertain. So much for the general
a time bargain which was vicious or immoral, so that it view of the question. He would now describe the main °b-
ought to be proscribed by law. As for the class of gentle- jects of the measure. They were three in number, in two of
men who dealt in money, he did not believe there was a which he anticipated the unanimous concurrence of the
more respectable class of men in the commercial world than house. One of these was for the sale of wine not to be con-
those who were connected with the Stock Exchange in sumed on the premises. The sale of wine in that form was
London ; and time bargains were a part of the regular busi- both unexceptionable and desirable for the supply of fami-
ness of the class of gentlemen whose business it was to deal lies, and he therefore proposed that, subject to a moderate
in money as their trade and daily occupation. These trans- license duty, every retail shopkeeper should have the power
actions could not be divided by any difference of principle to take out a license for the sale of wine not to be consumed
from transactions in the funds. No doubt that they involved on the premises. Passing on to a more socially important
a greater degree of hazard, but that was just as the insur- portion et the bill, it proposed to obtain one object, viz., an
ance of high risks involved greater hazards than low risks, efficient police control in connection with the sale of strong
At the time when Parliament attempted to proscribe these liquors. To that effect it proposed that any house wherein
time bargains, an idea prevailed that all dealings in the strong liquors were sold should be under the direct control
stocks and funds were deserving of reprobation, and there- of the police. The ground of this was that some of these
fore stock jobbing was called cca wicked practice." In those houses might be th receptacle of disorderly characters.
days, also, what were called forestalling and regrating were He believed there was no second opinion as to the propriety
considered moral offences ; the forestaller being a man who of bringing these houses within the scope of the bill. There
bought corn when a scarcity was coming on in order to sell was, however, an important exemption, viz., of houses be-
it at the time when the scarcity was at its height ; and it low the value pf 10. in /Aar,. th. Population .s, whirl, wa.
woe now considered that the conduct of such a man. by .0.43, --a— e certain number. That would include those vil-
•_,, ~ ,_ • _,._ .. ._ A.—l.-1....A..6 taLC consumption, had a lage shops where ginger wine and other things
beneficial effect. These things were quite elementary, and were sold. He believed this exemption would also
he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was almost ashamed be generally agreed to. The third portion of the
to dwell upon them ; but if the hon. member objected to the bill referred to licensing eating-houses for the sale of wine.
repeal of Sir John Barnard's Act, let him go back and re- The idea had got abroad that all refreshment houses were
rive all the other old statutes of that good old time in to be licensed for the sale of wine, but there could he no
George 11. 's reign, of which this act was a remnant, greater error. The fundamental principle of the bill was
Mr. BOVILL remarked that in the eighth and ninth year to draw a distinction between refreshment houses and eating
of the present reign an act had been passed to prevent wager houses. In licensing eating houses the bill had in view the
contracts being enforced in courts of law, and the legisla- creation of a system more healthful and natural, and less
liable to the contingencies of evil than the present system.
tion against time bargains, which it was new proposed to
repeal by a simple resolution, was based on the same prin- Obviously Nature intended that the functions of eating and
ciple. In India, where wager bargains were legal, enormous
existing law did everything to separate these functions, the
drinking should be carried on together. (Laughter.) But the
mischief had resulted from speculations in opium, by which
Kane of the largest mercantile houses bad been placed in
one from the other. There were some 70,000 or 30,000 drink-
jeopardy. He had heard of one firm which stood to win a ing houses in England, and not one eating house among
million and a half of money upon a single operation.
Ways them all. The law had constituted a monopoly for the sale
of drink, but not for the sale of victuals. The result was
The resolution, as reported from the Committee of .
land Means, was then agreed to, and so were the resolutions that the trade in drink was fostered and promoted, to the
neglect of the trade in victuals ; and so the business of eat-
of for a penny stamp on dock warrants, delivery orders, bills
exchange, and sundry other instruments. ing and drinking had been separated. People of te higher
In reply to a question from Mr. HUBBARD, classes took care of themselves in that respect in chubs; but
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said these the licensing system laced it beyond the means of the mid-
resolutions did not at all affect the question of law which die and poorer classesp. The operation of the system of sepa-
had been raised with regard to the liability of coupons and ration was against sobriety of habit ; and the consequence
dividend warrants, under the act passed in 1858, to bear a was, not that the desire of drink was of rid of q
b penny stamp. It was well know that, in consequence of g ,ut that menwere compelled to go to places where drinking was a busi-
a decision against their liability, it was 'not intended to en-
ness. If it was desired to devise a scheme for the promo-
force it.
tion of drunkenness, it would be impossible to devise one
The next resolution, imposing a stamp on certificated more effectual. He was told that the bill ought not to be
copies of registry:of births, deaths, baptisms, and marriages, supported, because the Beer Bill had failed ; but nothing
transfer of mining shares, certificates of probate, and lease could be more inaroriate, as the objects of the two bills
agreements, were then reported. pp p
In reply to Mr. PULLER, were widely different. In Sweden, where the people, though
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
intelligent, were prone to the vice of drunkenness, great
it was hard to draw the line as regarded foreign stocks, and
and one measure to had been made of lace
effeate
c years to
t, which barest rain d
b that vice ;
been very suc-
levying a probate duty upon them. However, he thanked cessful, was a provision in the law that spirits should not
his hon. friend for calling attention to the matter. The be sold •in any house except that victuals were sold also.
difficulty was in levying probate duty on property not ab- He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) did not think the
solutely English. The matter would be anxiously consi- use of wine would cause any decrease in the consumption of
d ered by the Government. beer and spirits, as there was a population increasing in
The report was then agreed to. number and wealth, whirle affbrded a legitimate sphere for
REFRESHMENT HOUSES AND WINE the consumption of that article without trenching on these.
LICENSES BILL. But the bill would give the people an easier access to a mild
On the order of the day for the second reading of this liquor than they heretofore enjoyed, and ho looked upon that
bill, as a matter of great consequence. He had had letters stet-
Petitions were presented against it by several members, ing that there were many drunken people in Paris, but he
including Mr. J. Ewart, from Liverpool ; Sir C. Napier, would willingly exchange the drunkenness of Paris for the
Mr. Ayrton, and Mr. Ker Seymer. drunkenness of London. It was a universal principle that
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in rising where wine was abundant there was little or no drunken-
to move the second reading of the bill, said his hon. ness, and though he was not likely to insist on the converse
friend the member for Liverpool had just presented a peti- of that proposition, he was obliged to admit that in many
tion which described the measure before the house as a con•• instances it held good. Besides the advantage of reuniting
fiscation of the property of the licensed vietuallers. Now eating and drinking, which he presented to the house as
he was anxious to say that it was extremely difficult to dis- the main object of the bill, he thought he might say it pro-
cuss the question before them without more or less indi- vided a much better and more effectual system of control
eating the opinions of the Government as to the present than any at present in existence. Every one who kept a
system under which drinking houses were licensed and refreshment house, subject to a limited exemption, would
managed ; and he was afraid that, so far as his opinima be required to make out a license, and would thus come
license
might become apparent, it would be very unfavourable to under the control of the police. Every one who kept an
the system. But at the same time the Government were eating-house would be enabled to apply to the Excise for a
very anxious, in framing a bill which had in view a cem- wine license ; but the officer of Excise, before the
put an al, •
paratively limited object, to avoid everything like the feel- issued, must make known the fact
_tn the magistrates, awl
ing described in the language of the petition from Liver- the magistrates had the power to object, and to
an eating-house
pool. There was much that been pressed upon the Go- solute veto on the issue of the lioense, ptrovided that they
vernment by the sellers of beer, and there was much au- could assert either that the housewta
hsatirt
admitted that that
thority due to the report of a committee of that house, which within the meaning of the act, or
He was
a house kept
be called an warned them that some time or other they must deal with or frequented by disorderly persons.
h could not be the whole system under which the sale of strong liquors was a large power, that it night almost_c
the integrity and arbi-
hadintel-
been regulated. It was not their intention, however, trary power, and that it was one :whi
.) the reason for giving
justi-
upon that occasion to propose a complete and final settle- fled, unless they had confidence in
went of the question, but a measure of much more limited ligence of the magistrates. (II
thes r termB
tendency. The question was one of very great practical that stringent power to
of
t with respect to the ap-
importance, and one which no consideration of a party or plication of the definition "eating-house" with-
purely political character could interfere ; and the measure in the meaning of the act, was, that if they were to enable
which he had to propose was undoubtedly also of consider- persons on undertaking sell
.to bread and cheese, or articles
able fiscal importance, because it originated in a fiscal pro- of that kind, to call their establishments eaeing_houses, and
posal, for it would have been absurd to propose a great di • to entitle them to take out wine licenses, the practical effect
minution of the wine duties and to hold out a hope to the would be to give wine licenses to drinking houses instead
house that the revenue would be rapidly recovered, unless, of to eating-houses, -whereas the object of the bill was
at the same time, the Government was prepared to submit to give wine licenses to space where the business of
a measure to Parliament by which the channels for the drinking was subsidiary to tat of eating, (Hear, hear.)
sale and consumption of wine should be greatly altered and The magistrates would alto have the power to object
enlarged. But although' fiscal considerations formed the to granting a license, on tb ground that the house did not
immediate occasion of the measure, it had undoubtedly an correspond with the rental or value prescribed by the act, or
important bearing upon the social condition of the coin- that the person applying had been disqualified in another
cient netraints upon any undue facilities
munity—(hear, hear)—it had a decided hearing upon the place in consequence ofeeisconduct. He hoped that these
great question of public sobriety ; and the ground on would prove etel
for
which he earnestly commended it to the house was not be- the first issue of thesclicenses. (Hear, hear.) The licenses
cause of its importance with respect to fiscal ends, but upon must be renewed hem year to year, and the bill gave the
the ground that it was a good and wise measure, with re- magistrates the sane power in cases of renewal as they had
gard, first, to the enlargement of the comforts of the upon receiving the notice of the first application. Besides
people, and, secondly, with reference to the promotlondeof
dtheatathtsheefrewwhiacsh
lenotevhe bill a system of penalties; with the
would not now weary the house. They
temperance and sobriety as opposed to drunkenness and .
moralisation. (Cheers.) In the discussions which hehad had had been tepid, for the most part, from the Beer Act,
with the various parties who viewed the bill with more or which °entailed very stringent penalties, but had been ins-
loss aversion and suspicion, he was obliged to hold firmly proved and..endered more workable. Ho should propose, for
by two conditions. The opponents of the bill had been two example, ti disqualify, under certain circumstances, the
parties who for the nonce bad acted in conjunction, and yet "house" is well as the "individual ;" and lie should' also
it would :teem a jest to mention such an alliance in that propose hat the penalty inflicted should be without appeal,
house. One of them had been the licensed victuallers, who except .in the third conviction. On the whole he thought
represented in some degree the humbler sellers of beer and that ifthe penalties erred, it was not on the side of laxity.
of wine, but, at the same time, the sellers of ardent spirits, Possely, in some cases they might be considered too stria-
which sale was by far the favourite portion of their trade. gent, but that might he discussed when they got into corn.
The other party had been a body of gentlemen, of whom he mitee. He had VOW explained the general scope and effect
was unable to speak either there or elsewhere save with the of be bill, and the principal provisions which it contained.
profoundest respect, inasmuch as they were gentlemen who Aid, as he had said at the commencement, so he said at the
were anxiously- endeavouring to lay the axe, as they thought, core : he did not propose this measure with the intention
at the root of a great social evil. (Hear, hear, hear.) He rf making it the precursor of an attack upon the privileges
spoke of them, then, with the utmost respect, and he refs rred now enjoyed by liceneed vietnallers or beer.bouse keepers.
to " the Temperance Society," But at the same time he at That question stood on entirely distinct and independent
once avowed a broad difference of opinion between the grollnde, and would no doubt some day or other call for the i
society and himself. He believed that so far as the article Attention of the house. But this bill he reeeinnien.ded as
of wine was concerned, there was a use apart from an bit one which had a deleiled tendency to the promotion of
of wine ; whereas those gentlemen drew no distinction be_ habits of sobriety in the people, and which would have that
tween the use and abuse—and in their view it would be just effect both by establishing a better system of contra than
as proper to talk of legalising the use of perjury or theft as anYnese, existing, and by °fleeing to them the means of rea-
to
propose the introduction of cheap wines. He was boun sealable n
d eess to liquor anci iite refreshing influences in con- '
however, to say that of hose wo classes of opponents, le juileiion with the weeds which they required to take. He
had not the slightest doubt from which the most formidahe i hoped that th house wouldsanction the second •
be ea eted 14
opposition was to tee , (7.eark hear.) a
He cr.„ilv tie leill, aiming as it did at Watt ol no common import- ,
'

to respect it as it now stood if we could find anything better
as a substitute. But such was our present position with
regard to revenue and expenditure that unless we trusted
in some degree to direct taxation, he did not know where
the revenue was to come from. We could not re-
impose indirect taxes, and the inevitable conclusion them-
fore \NA that we must resort to direct taxation. lie trusted
that another year would aot pass without this question of
the income tax being taken into the deliberate considera-
tion of the house, and that the house would not be dis-
suaded from dealing with it by any feeling of despair as to
the results of its labours.

Lord 11. VANE said that the c)mmittcc of 1853 arrived
at the conclusion that the difficulties in the way of a real
adjustment of the income tax, so that justice might be dealt
out to all parties, was impossible. He was not opposed to
direct taxation, yet looking to the state of our relations
abroad, especially after the discussion in the earlier part of
the evening, he confessed he viewed the budget with some