The Sun.
London, England, 1860-05-05 00:00:00

KETS BILL.

On the motion that this bill be read a second time,
Lord CHELMSFORD objected to the bill on account
of the serious inconvenience it would occasion to the inhabi-
tants of the districts to which it referred. The noble lord
spoke at some length upon the fact that the bill proposed
to deal with a great part of the -parish of Wreath,
which had been exempted from it when the promoters of
bill first obtained their powers, and he hoped their lord-
ships would think that he had established a case that the
present bill was a violation of the principles upon which
legislation was founded. Unless the promoters of the bill
satisfied him that that part of the parish of Wroath to
which he alluded was to be excluded from the bill in com-
mittee, he should object to its being read a second time.
Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY supported the bill,
and thought all the objections of the noble and learned lord
could be dealt with in committee.
The Earl of SHREWSBURY said he had been asked
to support the bill. He thought the proper place to dis-
cuss objections would be in committee. He did not think
the promoters would have any objection to amend the bill
so as to meet the views of the noble and learned lord.

After a few words from Lord Redesdale, Lord Wensley-
dale, and Lord Chelmsford in reply, the bill was read a
second time.
ORGANISATION OF THE INFANTRY.

Lord LUCAN then rose to call the attention of the
house to the present state of the organisation of the in-
fantry.
The noble lord said, as the subject of our national
defences had excited ao much attention, he had felt it his duty
to bring the present subject under consideration. Great
stress had been laid lately upon the importance of an effi-
tient navy, but whatever might be the effect of such a pre-
caution, the public safety demands an effective army.
Notwithstanding the efforts of the Duke of Wellington,
there was not that organisation of the infantry that could
be desired, and this state of things continued for 30 years.
At the time of the Crimean war, the new regiments that
had to be sent out arrived in so inefficient a state, that he
(Lord Lucan) had to write home to Lord Hardinge, and ask
him not to send over new regiments, but to add men to
those already in existence. Lord Hardinge thereupon very
properly ordered that no regiment should be sent abroad
without having a depot. The Duke of Wellington had
thought it essential and necessary that a second battalion
should be added to the infantry, and he (Lord Lucan)
thought that a great mistake had been made in not acting
upon the duke's opinion. He believed that the Minis-
ter for War had taken credit to himself for having
increased the strength of the companies, instead of
which he ought to have added second battalions, which
the late Duke of Wellington thought essentially neces-
sary. Within the past few years the bittalions in
the field had been increased from eight to ten,
leaving the depots at home with only two companies instead
of four. He could not comprehend the reason of this alte-
ration. In objecting to this system he believed that he was
only expressing the sentiments of the whole army. Hele-
laved that the present plan struck at the very root of the
regimental system—a system which had been found to be
admirably efficient. At present both privates and officers
were obliged to join their depots and remain there a consi-
derable time before joining their regiments. This was a
very costly system. A regiment might be in the same town
with its depot, as was the case with the 10th Regiment at
Devonport, and yet the only communication between them
must take place through the Horse Guards. This very in-
juriously affected the regimental system, but he had a still
tronger objection, and that was that under the present
plan a young man entered a regiment where the command-
ing officer was known to his father, perhaps ; but, instead
of joining that commanding officer, and having the advan-
tage of his counsel and superintendence, he was sent to
the depot, sa here he found a number of mere boys, got into
debt and difficulty, and perhaps his prospects for life were
ruined. It was suggested that their lordships' house was
not quite the place to discuss this important subject, but
he felt that he should be failing in his duty, considering
the long time he had been in the army, if he had not
availed himself of his privilege as a peer of Parliament to
bring the questien forward. (Hear.) He therefore hoped
tha subject would not be lost sight of, and he thought it
was one in relation to which a commission ought to be
appointed.
Earl DE GREY and RIPON must confess, after hav-
ing listened to the speech of the noble earl, that it appeared
to him that the subject which the noble and gallant earl
had brought before their lordships was one of so strictly
military a character, that this was not quite the place to
discuss it. He assured the noble earl that if he had made
any suggestions to the authorities at the War Department
on the subject, they would have been received with all
the consideration due to so important a subject. (Hear.) He
did not think it would be right in him to prolong the dis-
mission, and he would merely say that if any question re-
ferring to the interests and efficiency of the army should be
brought under the consideration of the War Department,
it would be received with the greatest consideration.
The Duke of CAM BRIDGE entirely agreed in all that
had fallen from his noble friend who had just sat down,
and he ventured to say it would have been more regular if
the noble and gallant general had, in the first instance,
submitted his plan to the considezation of the civil and mili-
tary authorities at the War Department, instead of
.fint
submitting them to that house. (Hear.) The army, as it at
present existed, was in a very efficient state. The present
system, he begged to say, whatever might be its state, was
in existence when he became Commander-in-Chief. The
noble lord relied very much on the Duke of Wellington's
opinion, and certainly it would f)e very improper for him or
any other military man, to stand Op against an opinion of
that description ; but he had yet to learn that that was the
Duke's opinion. He was aware that they bad depots in the
Duke of Wellington's time, composed of six companies.
That system was established in 1824; but he was not aware
hat the Duke of ' Wellington desired to extend that
system. He (the Duke of Cambridge), however, had had
some personal experience of the
.system. He had fur five
years commanded a large district in Ireland, and in that
district there were more depot battalions than in any other.
-What was the result ? A more lamentable and deplorable
system he never saw. He never heard any officer say he ap-
proved of that system, though he might approve of a double
battalion system. Let them see what that system was. The
last time that the system existed was in 1853, and Lord Her-
dinge, the then Commander-in-Chief, when the Crimean
war broke out, then altered it. A regiment consisted of ten
companies, divided into two parts. Six companies formed
the service companies, and went abroad, and four companies
formed the depot companies and stayed at home. The ser-
vice companies were composed of 25 officers and 540 men,
and the depot companies consisted of 14 officers 'and 310
men. If those 310 men were all efficient, perhaps some
thing might be said for them, and it would be well ; but
they were most inefficient. The refuse of the corps who
could not go abroad were left there, as well, also, as the re-
cruits. He had made inspection after inspection of the de-
pot companies, but ho seldom saw more than 150 men on
parade at one time. Thus, they had a regiment consisting.
so far as tha service companies went, of 25 efficient officers,
and 510 men, and the depot companies, consisting of 11
officers and 310 men. What was the case now ? They had
now a regiment comprising 950 rank and file. They were
divided into two portions ; ten companies formed the service
companies, and two were depot companies. They had ten
companies composed of 37 officers and 895 rank and file, effi-
cient, whether at home or abroad, and ready to go anywhere
at a moment's notice; and they had at 'the depot six officers
and an average of 192 men. Consequently, it would be
found that whereas in 1853, there were 10,000 men at the
depot while the service companies at that period com-
prised only 19,701 men, so that one-third of the whole
were at home and inefficient, and two-thirds were
abroad, they had in January 1860, 63 depots con-
taining. 12,999 men, and 50,49.3 in the service companies,
all efficient men, and ready to do duty at home or abroad.
He mug say the noble earl was not justified in saying they
kept efficient men at the depots, the fact being that they
kept the service companies in as complete a condition as
possible. The noble earl said he objected to depots alto-
gether. He (the Duke of Cambridge) wished they could
get on without them; but in their service it was quite im-
possible, their army being scattered all over the world, they
could not do without depots. The noble earl said, why did
they not send the men out to the service companies. What,
were they to send out to the service companies inefficient
men ? The commissioners for the reorganisation of the
Indian army, when referred to, said, " For God's sake don't
sent us out untrained men; send trained men ;" and he (the
noble duke) said the same. They never sent a man out of
the country who was not thoroughly trained and who bad
not undergone a complete course of instruction. The sys-
tem was better than sending men out like so much bag-
gage—a dozen at a time in a ship.
The Duke of RUTLAND said there was one point, of
great importance to which he wished to call attention,
though it had not been raised by the noble earl. He al-
luded to the volunteer system which had been established
Lu tats country. He wished to speak of that system with

.rxr :;

the greatest possible respect, and thought that the patriotic '
spirit shown by the people, when danger was apprehended
from a neighbouring Power, was beyond all praise. But
what he feared was that the volunteer system should be
allowed to supersede the regular and established army. He
found that the militia was not to be embodied, and that the
yeomanry was not to be called out for train'ng. While they
were doing this they were increasing the danger by resort-
ing:to a system of direct taxation ; and, :tear by year, any
Government that might be in power would be under almost
resistible temptation to fall back upon the volunteer corps
in order to relieve the public putse. The institution was a
most valuable one, but he hoped it would be always kept up
as auxiliary to, and independent of, the regular army.
The Earl of LUCAN having replied, the subject dropped.
PAWNBROKERS' ACT AMENDMENT BILL.
This bill was read a second time.

TRUSTEES AND MORTGAGEES, &c., BILL.
This bill passed through committee.
SALMON FISHINGS (SCOTLAND).

The select committee on Salmon i7ishings (Scotland) was
nominated on the motion of the Duke of Newcastle.

The house adjourned at 20 minutespast 7 o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(YESTERDAY.)
The SPEAKER took the chair at four o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.

The following bills were read a third time :—Commercial
Docks Acts Amendment, Finn Valley Railway, Milford
Haven Railway and Docks.
The North Eastern Railway (Extension of Time, &c.)
Bill was considered, and ordered for third reading.