The Sun.
London, England, 1860-07-18 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY "'EVENING, JULY 18, 1860.

the hereditary branch of the legislature, and they ought to
be prepared to make any sacrifice to meet it.

Lord PALMERSTON said that the noble lord could
hardly expect him to enter on the large question involved

in his resolution at that late hour. He did not quarrel with

his noble friend for attempting to record his opinion more

'ally than had been done by the resolutions passed by the

house ; but he would submit that, after the grave and seri-
ous discussion which then took place, it was not wise to stir

the question again at the present moment. The house might
well be content with the resolutions it had passed. The
noble lord said that if the house agreed to his resolution he
would throw upon the Government the responsibility of
carrying it into effect, and explaining his undefined inten-
tions, (cheers and laughter.) He (Lord Palmerston) was
satisfied that the resolutions already passed sufficiently as-
serted the rights and privileges of the house, and the means
to which they might have recourse in future to make good
those rights and privileges. He would therefore move the
previous question, being of opinion that his noble friend
had not shown the judgment which he usually evinced,
and that the house ought now to decline to enter into this
discussion.
Sir J. TRELAWNY said we were in the midst of a re-
volution set agoing by the Conservative lords. This was a
question affecting the vitality of the House of Commons—
(hear)—and was the language of the noble lord worthy of

the leader of that house ? (Cheers.) He complained of al
most everybody in the house. (Laughter.) He complained
of himself too, and for this reason, that he allowed the
China vote the other evening to pass so quietly. He often
heard in private that the noble lord was a Tory, and he did
his best to defend him from the imputation. (Laughter.)
But whether Tory or Radical, he inflicted an injury on the
House of Commons in allowing the recent aggression of the
House of Lords to pass with impunity. He complained of
the Chancellor of the Exchequer that he induced the house
to add ld. to the income-tax when their constituencies ex-
pected that they would take off at least sd. (Laughter.)
They did that at his instigation. Then the right hon. gen •
tleman came down and used language which bordered on
the verge of revolution—language' as strong as could be
used at any Chartist meeting. (Hear.) All his feelings
were roused by the eloquence of the right hon. gentleman ;
but after all this the right hon. gentleman came down to
the house last night, quietly putting his tail between his
feet. (Laughter.) The noble lord the member for the City
of London, whom he sincerely respected, was silent. He
believed that if her Majesty's Government had been in
opposition they would have heard a very different tone. He
could not overrate the importance of the question. He felt
that something had gone out of them—(laughter)—that
their most precious privilege had been invaded. He should
prefer to see the French in Yorkshire. (Laughter, and
cries of Order, order.) He repeated it, he should prefer to
see the French in Yorkshire, because he believed they
would soon be obliged to retire; but in the case of this
aggression of the House of Lords upon the House of Com-
mons he had no such hope. He recollected what an
eminent writer on the constitution said, " What to• day is
fact to-morrow is precedent, and next day will be law. The
day would come when they would hear more of this ques-
tion. They were merging fast in the state of France when
the Teste and Cubieres affair took place. They had a nar-
row suffrage and general corruption. Every contract was
a job. (Hear, hear.) The public knew these things, and
the day was not far off when the people would manifest
what they felt. He believed he was acting in the spirit of
a true Conservative when he recommended them to with-
draw their opposition. They would be made responsible for
every financial calamity that took place in the country.
(Oh, oh, and Hear, hear.) The House of Commons was
responsible for the finances of the country, but if their
plans were upset and defeated, those who defeated them
ought to be, and would be, held responsible. He should
therefore recommend the House of Lords to come down in
sackcloth and ashes, and to repent of what they had done.
(Hear, hear, and laughter.)
Mr. CLAY deeply regretted the motion of his noble
friend, not that he took a lower estimate than he di 1 of the
subject of that motion, for it was the most important sub-
ject that had occupied that house since he had been a mem-
ber of it; nor did he feel less the humiliation under which
the attack and premeditated insult of the House of Lords
had placed them. (Hear, hear.) But he objected to the
motion, because he was certain it would fall very far short
of the object which it sought to secure, and that it would
be an increased record of their shame. (Hear.) He be-
lieved the majority of the people out of doors did not sup-
port that house on this question. (Hear, from the Oppo-
sition.) On the contrary, the majority out of doors, who
seldom drew fine distinctions, believed in the financial
sagacity of the House of Lords, although he believed in
the wisdom of the proposition they had sanctioned, but the
majority out of doors refused to sanction that house on
the question of the encroachment of the House of Lords
upon the privileges of the House of Commons. He be-
lieved the motion of his noble friend would be in every
way mischievous, not on account of the paper duty, about
which he cared very little, but because the division they
would come to presently would not be a correct repre-
sentation of the gentlemen in that house who were in
favour of a repeal of the paper duty. (Hear, hen= >
wouldt3titl more
Lween the iise iutidroraagseatnhde
tyloesiitlioofuoa ~tLh,_%quieltia,on. bre:,
it would remain on record that in 1860 a large majority of
the House of Commons did not consider that the rejection
of this measure by the House of Lords was a violation of
the privileges of the House of Commons. (Hear.) If there
be differences in the Cabinet on this question—which he
should deplore—they should leave it to those who more
particularly represented their opinions to choose the man-
ner and time when those difficulties should be adjusted
rather than invite the Government to a vote which they
might find some difficulty in avoiding. They on those (the
Liberal) benches were considerably too ready, whenever the
Government did not exactly agree with them, to cry out
that " the 'Whigs are throwing us over." The mere fact
of a break-up of the Treasury bench did not in itself mat-
ter very much, but the matter of their falling was a very
different thing. If they fell by the legitimate attacks of
the other side of the house, they (the Liberal party)
should be as united as ever. (A. laugh from the Oppo-
sition.) At all events they would be as ready to renew the
experiments they had tried before, but if the Government
broke up from dissensions among their own party, the
case would be very different. The country required a
strong Government, and if by dissensions among their own
party the Government broke up it would be taken as a con-
fession that the experiment they had tried had failed, and
that the Whigs and the Radicals could not lie in the same
bed, and undoubtedly fresh party combinationS would
follow. (Hear, hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
entirely concurred in the propriety and wisdom of the
course proposed by his noble friend (Loy I Palmerston),
and he likewise joined in his regrets at the conclusion at
which the noble lord the member for Marylebone had
arrived when he thought it his duty to submit this motion
to the house upon a matter of such gravity and importance
when the hand of the clock was approaching the hour of
midnight. (Hear.) But the noble lord seemed disposed to
throw the responsibility of doing so on the statement which
he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) made of the financial
demands for the public service last night. He (the Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer) said it would have been most im•
proper on his part, and most disrespectful to both sides of
the house, if he had not made it his sincere and honest pur-
pose, in submitting that statement to the house, to leave
the great constitutional question which had been opened
within the last few weeks precisely as he found it, and that
it was beside his purpose to use it for taunt or accusation
against any man or any number of men, and that it would
have been wrong if ho had placed that statement on such
grounds as would weaken the position of the noble lord and
others. But lest he should be accused of having receded
from opinions he had expressed and conscientiously enter-
tained, he spoke of that sum of money proceeding from the
paper duty as a matter dependent upon the pleasure of the
British people and Parliament. (Hear.) Therefore let not
the noble lord state that he was placed in difficulties in con-
quence of any expressions used•or proposals made by him
the (Chancellor of the Exchequer) last night. With respect
to the proposal of the noble lord, he concurred it was not
fitting for that house to pronounce an opinion upon the
merits, and for the reasons stated by his noble friend (Lord
Palmerston). With regard to the second portion of the mo-
tion it was more serious, as it stated that it was incumbent
upon the house to adopt some practical measure for the
vindication of its rights and privileges. Now he (the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer) maintained that was only so many
words, and nothing more than words, and did not advance
the house one inch to a practical solution of the question,
but was giving to the country at large an am earance of
their being in earnest without any real pledge or guarantee
of their sincerity. So far as words were concerned, they had
used them in sufficient quantity, and the words proposed in
the three resolutions adopted unanimously by the house
were well adapted for the purpose ; and being so, he thought
they ought not to be annoyed with surplusage. It would
not be well to take any step in this matter Without judgment,
and none at all unless they could usefully proceed to acts.
Whether they could proceed to acts by some measure for
which the house would be prepared let bon. members con-
sider; but at any rate to pass more segue resolutions
could be of no avail. The motion of the noble lord would
read well in the newspapers, and it would contribute to his
popularity in the important borough whick he represented.
It would be seen that his voice at any rate Was for open war,
but he (the Chancellor of the Exchelter) thought that in
that house they ought to proceed with a view of advancing
the public interests, and ho could not say that by agreeing
to this motion they would advance the public interests. The
house had heard a temperate statement upon the constitu •
tioual question, and the resolutions which they had agreed
to constituted, at least upon paper, a protest against what
had been done by the other house. The protest having
been made in terms which the noble lord Sid not disapprove,
it would not be desirable, if they wished to Maintain the dig-
nity of the house, to multiply protests of this character.
The only thing that remained was action, and pn this occa.
sion he agreed with the motion of his noble friend, because
it would relieve the house from recording a judgment upon
the matter. This was not the occasion for entering upon
the merits of the question. He had on a forsaer evening ex-
pressed in plain and strong language what he felt, but there
was much more which might 1)e said against the course
taken by the other house. (Hear.) He didnot believe the
discussion had unfolded nearly all the difficulties and dan-