The Sun.
London, England, 1860-03-23 00:00:00

I FiV SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING;I MARCH 23, IMO.

any question for the adjournment of the house on Frahy. I norshire spoke of the inconsistency and tself-conirScliction
I into which- public men were drawn by the pressure of
(Hear, hear.) - , .
' DARTMOUTH ELECTION. - ‘ events, he (sir J. Pakington) asked whether, in the con-
Mel LYGON moved that the minutes of the eviden tee duct of the noble lord with respect to the commercial treaty,
takehlbefoen, the select committee on the Dartmouth ele•ee and in that of the right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of
tion petition, in session 1859, Le laid before
,the house.- -the• Exchequer with respect to the income tax, they might
Ordeded. ,'
not at that very moment see before them a confirmation of
RIWRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE BILL.
that inconsistency into which public men might be pressed. II
Mr' STANFELD, who commenced his remarks by -
t Those opinions had been expressed by men of opposite
alluding to a speech of Mr. Disraeli, and complaining that
,sides with respect to politics, hut the only advantage he
the right hon. gentleman, after stating strong objections to .
meshed to draw from them was to appeal to the
the measure, had declined to take the sense of the house
noble lord whether, having to deal with the great
upon 'it., leaving the respongibility of passing, what he con-
queetion• before them, it was worthy of his name and
sideigid a bad measure, upon the noble lord who prepared it.
He (Mr. Stanfeld) believed, that so far as the extension of his ehnnection with this great subject, that he should place
the franchise was concerned, and with regard to its effects before them that meagre bill containing nothing but that
One proposal, which he trusted the house would not con-
upon the working classes, the calculations of tho hon. mem-
ber for Birmingham would prove more correct than the cal- sent to, overwhelming intelligence and property merely by
the force of numbers. (Hear, hear.) He (Sir J. Faking-
culations of thexight,hon. gentleman the member for Bucks.
ton) did not object to the addition of large numbers to the
In his opinion the returns before the house showed that in
constituencies; indeed, having been a party to a bill di-
largel manufacturing towns the propositions of the noble
rested to that very object, he could have no objection to
lord would have but little effect on the representation, and
the principle of the numerical increase of tiee constituen-
yet he cordially supported the bill, not because it met the
ties ; nor did he object to the extension of the franchise to
I advanced opinions which he entertained, but as an instal-
working mon. He had seen working men to whom ho
ment of reform. This was a step, though cautious and
would as readily gave the franchise as to any gentleman in
hesitating, towards the admission of the working classes
to the franchise—it was the initiation of a new era, and that house. At the same time, he , must say that he was
an aelknowledgment of the fact that all classes were entitled not there to be the patron of the working classes ; but
to a ishare in the representation. Regarding fitness •'''°--- , while he was quite willing that they should have the &an-
exercise the 41-anchise, he thought that desire was a chino, heeontended that they were not entitled to a mono-
sutlhent feef;tand looked upon apathy as the worst evil poly of the representation. (Conservative cheers.) Nor
they could have to encounter, as it struck at they pnn- would he give the monopoly of the representation to the
ciple bf independence. He utterly disbelieved that danger wealthy class. He would give that monopoly to no class.
would result froM the representation of any ekes, and he (Cheers.) And here he would call to his aid witnesses to
looked forward with hope and confidence to the time when whose evidence be would take the liberty to refine In cer-
all classes would have their share in it.. He, denied that tarn speeches delivered by the hon. member for Binning-
thera was apathy in the country upon the question of re- hani and the hon. member for Rochdale, there were peh-
form, and attributed the absence now of such excitement sages which gave him the right to call them to his support
and organisation as prevailed in 1832 to a change in when he maintained that to no class should a monopoly of
the position and in the habits of thought of the the representation be given. (Hear,) The first speech of
people. and to the influence of the cheap press. the hon. member for Birmingham was one which he deli-
Still, however that question might be solved in the minds vered at Liverpool on the Ist of December last, and in
of honourable members, he believed it was those who were: which, so far as the expression of opinion went to which he
most hostile to all such changes that ought to feel it was.was about to refer, he quite agreed with him, and only
especially fortunate that the question came on to be settled asked him how it was that he was now ready to give his
when the tide of popular feeling was at the lowest, and when support to a measure which proposed to transfer the
it was possible to pass the minimum of reform--a bill of monopoly of the representation to a single class of the
little real concessions gained by political' diplomacy. He -community. The hon, member on that occasion declared,
believed in the progress of opinion upon that as upon all in the strongest possible manner, against the impropriety
'otherquestions. He desired not to defeat their enemies, of such a policy; and again, on the 6th of
but t convert their opponents. And therefore he supported January last, he said at Birmingham, that he wanted the
the b 1; because, while it made converts, it would disarm industry of the country to be represented. (Hear, hear.)
suspi ion and dispel false alarms. (Hear, hear)
'
I
How, then, could the hon. member, if he still adhered to
--. Sir JOHN PAKINGTON said the progress of the de- that sentiment, stand up in_ his place and support a bill
bate pto the present time on this question heal: been most which would virtually place the representation in the hands
curio s and instructive. They were considering one of the
ago ltai iocsal7lat
ysi sd
:txhper( Ce
lisosanends . e r vtaa
tat io
pvb
ieenrci
oh:
fneaeri cheers.)
00
pica
hApdlnea dit
eon,
coowwil
ai er,
mwh
ioetu lyf
adwa cani
tdhl I,
most mportant subjects that could possibly be submitted
il
for their consideration by her Majesty's Ministers. They that of the hon. member for Bilniingham, but went on to
were now in the second night of the debate; and up to the propose, a plan by which a remedy might be devised for the
evil of which ho 'complained. It was .in the month of
present moment he had waited to hear some member of her August last, on thehon. gentleman's landmg from America,
Majesty's Government speak in favour of the bill. The hon. and being informed that a seat in the present Cabinet was
memlier for Huddersfield, in speaking of the measure, said awaiting his decision, that, in addressing a meeting in Liver-.
it was only to be" a step in the right direction." (Hear, pool, ho said, la reference to a redistribution of seats, that
,
hear. He was followed by an hon. member who com-
he thought it would be the fairest and most convenient
e as
signing
plain course to portion outthe larger towns into wards, assienine
plaindd that the bill did not contain any provision for the
to
each ward a member. He remarked that the aristocracy
b
ballot, and all the speakers in support of the measure urged and wealthy class generally lived in one ward, and the in-
the n4cessity for a still larger measure. (Hear, hear.) The dustrious class 'in another and in that way there would be no
' hon. member for Birmingham addressed the house, and he danger of any particular class obtaining an ascendancy in
held precisely the, same language. That hon. gentleman,
the representation. Her, then, was a plan for the purpose
of remedying the evils of which they complained in the bill
who thought himself a sort of English O'Connell, gave his before the house ; and let him whilst on that point, ask the
, suppot to the Government, and said he was inclined to noble lord how it was that in the year 1854 he enunciated a
tolerate the bill in consideration, of the position in plan for giving representation to the minority ? The plan,
whieli the Government was placed, and that he was undoubtedly, was not popular, but he (Sir. J. Pakington)
had always given the noble lord credit for ereat good sense
content to obtain his object seep.by step. (Hear, hear.)
and correct judgment in making that proposition,b the
Now, ale would remind the hon. member of what was said object of which, as he apprehended, was to prevent the re-
by him in a building well known in Manchester as Watts' presentation being thrown into the bands of one class, and
Building—a building which, no doubt, was one of the the other class being inspired with feelings ef (discontent.
attractive sights of England. He (Sir J. Pakington) ioHttrehhaeuesre.)a He (Sir (wSi•Lat Laleibnegenton)wished now to state
brought to his notice in
had seen that building, and in that place the hon. an anonymousl) communication from Manchester, and
member, after addressing a large body of working men, which, though he by no means meant to recommend its
who Were assembled to hear him, was addressed by them adoption to the house as entirely eligible, was at any
of the Government and
in the language of complaint and dissatisfaction that the
well worthy the consideration
house. It was a plan which was said to be in opera-
measure did not contain that " lodger franchise" which °Jet-Tien the town of Frankfort, and had evidently been de-
was proposed in the bill of the late Government last year. ,vesed for the express purpose of guarding against the great
(Rear, hear.) The hon. member made. a speech of very evil of any one class monopolising political power. The pro-
considerable ability—(hear, hear)—but the hon. gentleman posal was, that each class . should elect its representative&
Such a plan could not, of course, be cairied out in this
told them, just as every one else had told them on his
country without the consideration of a great many details.
'Thus, for example, if it should be decided that Men (hester
side of the house, that he could only regard the measure as
a step in the right direction. But his (Sir J. Pakiregton's) should return three members, the plan would be something
opinion was that it was a miserable bill—(hear, hear)—and like this; that householders to the value of £l.O and downs
he could only suppose the Government proposed such a wards should return one member ; that householders be-
bill as the result of some compromise between a divided tween £lO and £25 should return the second; and that
householders above 25 should return the third. If Man-
Cabinet, or a compromise:under the political influence of chester should return only two members a different line
foieign affairs. But his belief was that the bill was most would hahe to be drawn. As he had already remarked, it
contemptible, because it was impotent for good and power- was a plan which would be attended with great difficulty
ful for harm. (Hear, hear.) He was sorry the noble lord in its execution in this country, but he asked the house to
the member. for the city of London had thrown away the I:ienaer
tinwamolnteclatthaadt.viatnwtaas evident any such plan would come
ges—namely, that each class would
opportunity which he had. The noble lord had, during be represented, and that the franchise might be made as
the hist thirty years, had an opportunity of watching the low as they pleased, without any danger of a particular
measure of which he was the introducer, although perhaps class obtaining a preponderance in the representation.
not the author ; and he (Sir John Pakington) hoped that (Hear, hear.) He had now mentioned several different plans
—those of the hon. member for Rochdale, the noble lord's,
the noble lord would have now dealt with the question and that in operation at Frankfort and others which showed
in a large statesmanlike way, and not produced a ram- how very generally the object was recognised of giving to.
sure abounding with so many faults. He (Sir John presentation to all classes; and monopoly to none. And now
Pakington) entirely agreed with the hon. gentleman
ne could not help reminding the house of Lord Grey's sug-
gestion, that, rather than act hastily, it would be well to ap-
who had just spoken, that the bill only contained one
point a committee of Privy Council, consis tin :g of men of all
proposal, and that they ought to discuss it. He agreed parties, to consider the whole subject, with a view of aseer-
with him that the extent of the franchise which it con- wining what might be conceded on the one hand and what
tamed differed so little from that which was proposed by ought to be withheld on tie other. He did not knowhow
the late Government, that it was not worth while to die- fia,arttdh&rneebljue lotrit mmietthi;eave consideredltt the suggestion of
permitted
wa! thatremind
pate over it. ,But the proposal of the late Government there wasyr; precedent for the
noblehiht that
was 'founded on principle, and he believed the proposal reeommended, in the case of the AustralianjColonies Act
of the present Government was destitute, of '
principle. of .1850, when a committee of Privy Council, composed of
(Hear, hear.) He 'believed she bill contained' only one men of the. Most different political principles, was appointed
Principle, and that that principle
.was an intention to toin titnicgarteelyntoretcheiorser
i;lyctt.heTtiaeuirtereacloye
, 1 thoughtTeWii °" wtre
precedent was one well worthy the attention or the noble-
ove-whelin the property and influence of the country by
:tweeters (hear, hear), and he further believed that a more lord. They wanted the great questi en of the representation
mable bill than it wao in rust respect, it was impos- to 10e placed on a fair and substantial feeling, and nothing
(Hear, hear.) He now begged to call the couldi inliaorledpowderfully conduce to such au end- than that
and to
were two. sides
soibbjieee
te
(i,,t
imagine.,
Attention :tithe house to the returns of the boroughs and otr tyhast house,' themselves as a body of Lug-
towns, on e'bich the noble lord seemed to have framed that lish gentlemen anxious'only for the just and judicious
part of his mehesure ; and if they were to trust to those re- settlement of this qhestion. . (Hear, hear.) If such an in-
turns to convey xo them what might be the effects of the hniry es he had suggested were instituted, he did not think
bill, he believed thee, were altogether delusive. (Hear, hear.) ..eClaammenaleconlladtibaeasfouanal itnhathaeltartusweawlledobe would oppose the
The'noble lord in his opening statement, evidently trusted was faunded, not' on any objection to the hr-oeirrinveedclvashsiccsh,
to the numbers in his columns as the basis in his calcula- but on the bare fact that this was a bill to throwba mono-
lion, and the hon. member for Birmingham also did se. poly of the representation into the hands of a class. He-
Now he (Sir John Pakington) believed that those returns, hoped they would now hear no more of that absurd expree,
personssion " h
fancyw a
neverthelessfranchise'
declared—(Conservative
thelodgercheers)—used franchise
especially as related to the larger boroughs and great manu-
facturing places, were most erroneous. The house would was not a fancy franchise. (Continued cheering.) They
observe that the number of voters in those boroughs were all knew how that expression arose. It arose last year
much smaller than the number of £lO houses, and it war when hon. gentlemen opposite were praising their (Mr. Di-
sraeli's), bill in private and speaking against it •
alleged that many were disfranchised on account of the _ in public.
(11-onical cheers.) It was true that, driven to find fault
non-payment of taxes. Now that was an anomaly; but it with.something, that expression was invented. The bill to
was, he thought, easily explained by supposing that the which he referred `contained some broad principles of Be-
rating of numbers of . those houses had been increased, in form, one of which was a ledger franchise ; and he (Sir
order to increase the number of voters on the register: There John Pakington) entertained the opinion that the beet and
boldest measure of reform ever introduced into that house
was in no less than 44 of those boroughs a considerably
.... was that proposal to extend the franchise to the
respect-
smaller number of voters than of £lO houses. In the borough able lodger. (Conservative cheers.) That would give
of Pontefract, for instance, there were , 689 £lO houses,. and them no addition of men belonging only to one class,i
only 411 voters. In' £loNewark there were 763 houses, and they would be men, also, who would exercise '
and only 551 voteese, and in Mid hurst there were. 429 £lO more anchise with cauti er t
on and deli
ay a fewbaion. Thewords, and
re was one
honses, and only 224 voters. Ho believed he could satisfy thatwas the
on which ho wished to s
the t
question of adopting the rating as the basis of
the house. H g would that. those -returns were not, as given in the the franchise. e thought himself that a rating •'
be
figures, to be depended upon as correct,. and that they the best basis for it; and as the Government had adopted it
were wholly inaccurate as to the number of voters who in the ease of Ireland, and also in that of Scotland, he knew
no good reason why it should not also be adopted • l in the
ought to be placed, upeoe the register. He believed that
English bill: The' noble lord said, however,
those case's Would not amount to less than 25 lief. Cent: of bill to correct the inequalities incidental to thatth rating
ilnied
in
the whole amount of-houses, and it was upon those grounds. England and Wales, and that being so, he hoped this elgiflli-
that the noble lord was gOing to lower the franohise to a catty would not much longer affect this part of the question.
£6 rental. But the fact' was that were going to 'add a very Ho wished to guard both sides of the house against the
•
error of supposing theta £6 rating franchise would be equi -
considerable number to the electors of the countrye•nutrie valent to a rental one of :CS. The
inequalities
between the
her that would have an 'overwhelming influence over tine rental and rating values ranged from a minimum of 4 per
property of the country. (Hear.) He believed the number ' cent. at Taitiworth arid Shrewsbury, to a maximum of 34
of voters would be very considerably greater than the noble Pee- cent. at Plyinouth. With those objections, or rather that
lord contemplated—(hear, hear)—and he believed that that Partimilar one upon which he bad so much dwelt, he might
be asked how it was that ho did not object to the second
would apply to every one of the boroughs. Having, made reading of the bill. He felt that ho was, not open to that re-
that explanation to the house, let him now ask her Majesty's mark. He quite, agreed with his hon. friend near hint that
Government was it wise and prudent to create that dissatis- they could not oppose the second reading of tho bill, under-
faction and discontent in the minds of the middle and the standing the principle of it to be an extension of the ft-an-
hien To thatprinciple he made no objection. They •
uppee classes of society which this measure could not fail c---- --•
,_ _ . certainly, have moved an abstract resolution as au amend-
to cause—(hear, hear)—and it must, in his opinion, appear meat to the question of the second reading, but they were
to any man plain that if the house pass this bill as it now unwilling to follow a bad example. (Conservative' cheers
stood, it, could not fail to have a most injurious 'effect. and laughter.) They would not do as they had been done
(Hear, hear.) Let him advert to the langdago Mlle pre- by—(cheers)—but they took the wiser, course of awaiting
sent Lord Grey, as expressed in a very able published the discussion of the bill in committee. • (Hear.) When
anti-
pamphlet on the subject of Reform. • That noble lord said e thati atetielnletlelaa tmOieheeo 1h:1,1)1:d/1,s:tit ionideied
hence
conlideigy
he was persuaded that the' present measure was founded the rescue. (Hear.) in. the meanwhilltlicleieweovuas ;meoxhi.oeutos
upon wrong and unsound principles. fie believed it would that the question should be settled on broad, sound, and
not be denied that those weeds of Lord Grey were prophetic. i;heral principle& lie was wilting to see the franchise ex-
ile (Sir John Pakingteh). was very much Reek with that tended; but let it be exteeded with prudence and safety.
Seeing, then, the-spirit in which they and thht (the Oppo •
example. Let him now, give them a hint warninh.. • 'Let • n re- • • ' of
Anion) aide the house were desirous of appreachfog the
mind them of the warning of De T ocqueville in his writings subject, he did hope the noble lord Would devote the inter•
on the United States. What did De Tocqueville tell them.? vening time to the considerationof the question, whether
Did he not soy that the most eminent men—men of talent it might not be well to have sonic inquiry previous to pro-
ceedingwithdraw furthee in a question of such magnitude. If the
and of virtue—were ~ ~ awfrom e •takino •
noble lord, however, should be unwilling to consider the
-•
any part in pubeie effeien or in elections in
, .America, be- fairness of an inquiryehe (Sir J. Pakington) would'only
cause of the overwhelming influence of the large reathee express his hope thathehen they did go into committee,
who were admitted to the • exercise of the .auffeage neeer 'they wold do so in. a calm, fair, and di'epassionatn spirit,
the American numerical system ; and in Another passage, and he trusted the result would be the passing of a measure
king of the democratic govern.: worthy of the British Parliament, and, beneficial to the Brie
De TOcqueville, i people. (Cheers.)
in Amonea, that en '
ment, as he saw it in operation ,1 d . Sir G. GREY said this was one of the most singular de.-
their extreme liberty there was but slon, . e
_, bhtee lae,hacl ever heard. When his noble friend (Lord J.
to he found against tyranny ; and again'
.no says'
f 'liberty RueseiVintroduced the bill, he entered fully into its prin..'
"There is no country in which there is less o ,Y ciples, but no sooner had he inbefeir the second reeding than
of
t an
Ile. (Sir
ef speech than in- Americad.' T
.ea eSl,r
. (Hear, hear.) , ... . John up rose the right lion. gentleman 'the member for Beeline-
Pakington) therefore trusted that the house. and her hamshire and announced that it his ' •
was not intention to
Majesty's GOeernment would take warning by those state- offer any opposition to the second reading of the bill, and
merits. (Hear.) . Let him now draw the Attention of the he expressed a doubt as to whether it would be his duty to
•
house to a fact. Was it not the fact that thehe were not 'a propose any amendment. Notwithstanding this he used
few, places in England where, in consequence of the high hard-language of thc'bill. lie said it wag a bad bill, and
rents, the property and rank were now; thrown into the uncalled: for.. The right hon. gentleman who had just sat
hands of one class? (Hear.) And hero lid 'bdgged, with down.
said it was a contemptible bill, a inisciable end a
permission of the-house, to refer to anotherneoteilantion on Dieligke bill, and yot those right lion. gentlemen thought it
this subject—namely, by the hon. member To r jeadreer. (Sir consistent eith the principles they professed to abst lin from
J. Walsh). It was a passage which, in his opinion, was
,e. .
all epeeeition to the second reading. This course was pru-
well worthy.the attention of the house. Thet lioxiememberf dent and expedient on their part, for if they brought their
detailing a conversation which he had' had with two per- opinions• to the test of a division, an immense majority
sons of influence and positioa in society, said that they had against them would have exposed their weakness. (Hear,

informed him that, in consequence of the manner in which
titaclet ions in their districts were now carried on, and the
inkucne which was exercised by a low class of voters, in
theirnula bers, over men in station, they had.determined to
witbdra front taking any part in those elections, and the
Consery five interest was altogether swamped by those.
parties. (Hear.) Lord Grey had- strongly observed that
there-w a deterioration in the character of public men in,
the Houise of Commons to such an extent, that motions
war© oftrn carried against the decided opinion of those who
voted thcm, and who did not scruple' to .express their re,
gret at finding themselves in a majority. Now, if rumour
spoke true,a.confilmation of that opinion of Lord Greyiwas
to be foind in the circumstances of the present moment ;
and wh
,n the right hon. gentleman the member fur Itad-

hear.) ' Though
" Willing to wound, but yet afraid to strike."
The real l',:f1S011 ii;r their conduct Brae that they would not.
have dared thew-sates' to propose a measure that contained
a less chano.e. (Hear, hear.) If the Government had
gone much 'farther in the way Of disfranchisement and
re-distiibUtion, they niight have
pined popularity, but
they,wotild not have submitted a measure that wont(' lead
to a satibfactery and safe settle/limit of this question. The
right hog. gentleman (Sir J. Pakington) said there ,vas but
one principle in the.bill, 'and:tht wns the cverWhelining
of
property and intelligence bYthe mere force of numbers, and
lie quoted With sappareat triumph the speech of the hon.
member for Birmingham, to show .that no predoniinauce
should be given to any class. He (Sir J. valijngto4) then
suggested that the bill should be referred to a judicial ,com-
mittee of the Privy Council .(a sugtostion flist wade by a

noble friend), and. observed that when the'ineasure -enine
from their hands it would pass without opposition. He (Sir
G. grey) believed'that to be one of the most UtoPian ideas.
The light hon. gentleman said that if the committee were
appointed by different sides of the house their bill would be
a paragon of perfection, and would be passed at once by the
'house. Was it not singular that this bright idea had not
.struck him last year,, before the bilhof Lord Derby's Go-
vernment had been introduced ? (Hear.) 'Had he adopted
that suggestion it might have saved his party from the dis-
comfiture they expel eneett last session. (Hear.) On the
other hand, the riglithon.gentleman the member for Buck-
inghamshire fairly admitted that the bill contained three
principles, viz.; the extension of the franchise in boroughs,
the extension of the franchise in counties, and the re-dis-
tribution of seats. He objected to the simplicity of the hill,
and said a great deal about "fancy franchises," a phrase
used four years ago, and theretere in use before his bill
came before Parliament. The term was not used as one of
reproach, but as descriptive of franchises previously un-
known to the constitution. On full consideration of the
matter the Government thought it better to adhere to the
principle of representation already in existence, and to ex-
tend it.so as to bring Within the pale of the constitution a
large'number of electors at present excluded. The Govern-
ment- thought they might accomplish this object in a more
direct way, and therefore they did not think it their duty to
adopt those fancy franchises. With regard to polling places,
which had been alluded to, he thoughtrurther provision might
be made in that respect, but that was matter of detail. But
the most important provision of the bill wes the extension
of the borough franchise, and it was to that the right hon.
gentlemen (Sir J. Pakington) chiefly addressed himself.
He (Sir G. Grey) would remind the right hon. gentleman
I that the late Government, of which he
,was a member,
adopted in their bill the very principle which he now con-
' denened. (Hear, hear.) It was quite true they stood by the
£lO household qualification, and insisted that it should not
be lowered; but the House of Commons decided that they
would not adopt any bill in which that qualification was
not lowered. When the address to the Crown was moved,
the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Disraeli), wishing to obtain
the eoestidence of the house, confessed his error, and pro-
mised to anwred the hill in committee ; but from the speeches
made on the bill now before the house, he (Sir G. Grey)
was bound to assume that 404. gentlemen opposito had-a
great distract ia the working classes. (14ar, hear.) The
right hon. gentleman the Wernher for' Buckinghamshire
said in introducing. his mounre last year that it was
the opinion of Parliamenthteansudfftrheageooteno
oilstry wet
itiit
theretg ias
shosneled,
be a large eeteneion of
and observed that he had no prejudice against that opinion.
" All that we want," saidhe, "is that any measure we
I bring forward shall be entitled to public approbation. We
are willing to ensure the introduction of a large number of
the working classes by lowering the borough franchise."
He (Sir G. Grey) understood from that declaration, that the
Government of Lord Derby were prepared to lower the
franchise.- The present Government had acted upon that
principle, and yet they were told that it was dangerous and
mischievous. The Government had not shrunk from pro-
posing an extension of the franchise to a considerable
amount, because they felt that no bill, would produce a per-
manent and stable—he did not mean ansverlasting—set-
tlement of the question that did not extend the suffrage to
a large number of the working classes. Was no account to
be taken of the increased and increasing intelligence of the
working classes ? The late Mr. Robert Stephenson, when
called upon et a public meeting to do honour to Sir William
Armstrong, in referring to the struggles of his own
father, observed that this ditilcelty was not in overcoming
matter, bet in directing mind. The working men of his days
had now enrols set intelligence to comprehend his Weise This
sea. not the ease at Keeent. Sir William Armstrong found
no difficultyin obteping workmen to make his gun. This
was owing to the inereesed intelligence of the Working men:
Were these the men whose nunibers were to overpower the
electoral body ? He (Sir G, Grey) anticipated no danger
from the admiselon of such men within the pale of the con-
stitution He did not think the /reposed lowering of the
boreegh franchise would create sinessential change in the
character of our constituencies. Thetight hon. gentleman
(Sir J. Pakingtee) had impugned the accuracy of returns
lel4 before the house tie tp the number of £lO electors. Al-
thmelh lap (Sir G. Grey) 'woes' net vouch for their exact
accuracy, still he believed they were prepared with great
care, and.might be relied upon as en approximate estimate of
the numbers that would be added to the electoral roll by
the bill before the house. It was his belief that any bill
which did not eentain the principle of extending the suffrage
to the working classes would fail to command the support of
more than a trifling minority in that house. He defended,
against the objections raised by the right hon. gentlethen
the members for Proitwich and Buckinghamshire, the ad-
dition to the £lO qualification in counties of the payment of
poor rate, and he justified the distribution of seats in the
manner proposed by the Government. The right hon.
gentleman the member for Droitwich expressed his regret
that the extension of the beroue'h franchise had been based
on rental instead of rating. No doubt, if the rating were
the v ctuat value of the property, then that would bethe more
preferable basis, bet while the rating was rude and unequal,
they could not in justiee or fairness 'adopt it, and to wait
till tlia bill for improving the valuation introduced by the
Home Seerefary became law, would be to delay the progress
of the Reform -Bill to another session. Never was there
a period more desirable or opportune for taking into calm
and dispassionate consideration the question of Reform,
for the country was happy,. tranquil, and prosperous.
Ho hoped the bill would receive that consideration which
it deserved; and if it met, as he had every confidence it
would, the sanction of Parliament, he believed that it
would atford satisfaction and contentment to a large portion
of the intelligence of the country hitherto without the pri-
vilege of 'the franchise, awl that it would tend to the
strength and stability of our Institutions. (Hear.)
Mr. ADDERLEY said the right hon. gentleman Who
lasi addressed the house. seemed to forget that a bill might
be right in principle, and yetmischievous by the manner in
which that peinsiiple was applied ; and he quite overlooked
thosse details wh.eh made the Reform Bill introduced last
year by -his right hon. friend the member for Bniking-
hamshire n /Vila and Conservative measure. It was' the
wholesale absence of those details which rendered the bill
of the elevernment a robschievous and dangerous measure.
He felt the m greatest commiseration for the Government by
whom such a bill was introduced, and he attributed its au-
thorship to the hon. member for Birmingham.
[Them were only 24 riesmbers present when Mr. Adder-
ley had proeeerled thus far with his statement, and an hon.
member moved that the house be counted. During the
period that elapsed between the motion and the comet about
20 members, Lord J. Russell among the number, rushed
in from the diningtoorn, and the " house " was thus made.
When the Speaker counted " 40," those who assisted to
make the house immediately took their departure.]
Mr. AD DEIeLEY resumed, and said that what had
just occurred indleated what was the state of the feeling
of that house on the subject under..their consideration.
(Opposition cheers.) A similar display, ho understood,
took place in the house, but with more success, on the last
evening that the subject was intended to be brought before
it. He (Mr. Adderley) was favourable to an extension of
the franchise, but he cautioned the house that they were
making a most hazardous experiment in reducing the
borough franchise from .ElOto £G. • (Hear, hear.) As they
were agreed upon the second reading of this bill, he yet
hoped in committee they would make such arrangements
as would provide against any serious innovation en the
present system of tho representation of the people. He
especially objected to that provision of the bill by which it
was proposed to accumulate members in connection with
populous places, instead of scattering those members over
the country. (Hear.) The principle of the Constitution was,
that every portion of the country and every class should be
represented, and therefore he objected to accumulating mem-
bers in populous districts. He looped the bill would be care-
fully considered in committee.
Mr. MASSEY said the state of the house was not such cad
to encourage discussion, but' notwithstanding the apathy
which prevailed, the bill was of some imp-lemma, and would
be attended with great results, (Hear.) He trusted this
measure would settle the question of Reform for a consider-
able number of years. When he entered Parliament ho
found this measure of a revision of the Reform Bill was a
public and an agitated question, and therefore he was
obliged, however reluctantly, to form some opinion upon it.
There might be some question as to details, but there was
none to the principle of this bill. The first objection to the
last Reforin Bill was, that the franchise was not sufficiently
extended to the enlightened and intelligent classes, and
another objection was, that representation did not boar a
fair proportion to the population in many places. However,
in a community like ours there must be some anomalies,
and they could not, in any ease, arrive at perfection. It was
said that the great commercial centres of industry were not
adequately represented. But had they suffered from that
fact ? Had not the entire course of legislation during late
years been in their favour ? Then if that was so, where was
the practical necessity for reform of Parliament so far as
they were concerned ? (Hear, hear.) . Well, then, why was
this question now to take prccedeace of all other questions
of immediate exigency ? It was simply because it was a
vexed and an irritated question ; and although the prac-
tical necessity for reforming Parliament was not very
urgent, he was prepared to settle it this session. There
were eerie • anomalies to be removed, and desirable amend-
ments to make. There were also theoretical objections to
be redressed. There were little boroughs sending two
members to that house, and there were, on the other hand,
large hives of industry who had but the same voice in that
house. These-inconsistencies should be redressed, but if
that was to be done, the measure should be well considered,
and not conceived in a lassitude indicative of a desire to
satisfy a promise hastily made. The measure of disfran-
chisement was well conceived, and, from his acquaintance
with the working classes, lie did not apprehend any danger
from the new constituencies that were to be called into ex-
istence. They might occasionally be misled, but there was
no fear to the property of the country, which appeared to
be the danger apprehended by the Conservative party. As
far as the franchise went the Mil was ample.' But would
the bill settle the question? (Hear, hear.) That was the
point. (Hear, hear.) The object of the noble lord was to
redress anomalies, but he really thought that the bill created
greater anomalies than it removed. Looking at one of the
great objects of the Reform movement, which was the re-

speculative anomalies, let them have a measure which would
effect their object:- Salfersl had
.100,000 inhabitants and
4;500 electors. Its claim-to a second member had been al-
ready recognised by the noble lord in his bill of 1854, and
another member was awarded. It was now to be left in its
existing state. It had now 4,500 electors, and would have
10,500 under this bill, and could he be expected to go down
to such a place—teeming with population, full of energy
and enterprise, commercial power and wealth, and increas-
ing beyond any borough in Lancashire in its commercial
prosperity—could he be expected to go down to such a place
with this bill in his hand, and say, "This is the measure
which is to settle the reform question for you." (Hear and
laughter.) He laid no Claim' to being what was called an
"advanced Reformer." . (Laughter.) He was a moderate
man. He liked to keep pace with the necessities of the
age; but, considering the momentous results of these orga-
nic changes, ho preferred rather to progress gradually than
to snake these hazardous plunges ir. the dark. (Hear,
hear.) The noble lord might say that this bill was but a
compromise, and that all our measures now were com-
promises; but: what would his constituents say when they
found that small market towns were loft with their full
complement of members, and the claims of this great
borough of Salford, occupying a position almost unique in
its character, were ignored ? The borough of Salford, in
three years; had added to the register a number nearly
equal to the united constituencies of Cockermouth, Buck-
ingham, Tavistock, and Wycombe. (Hear.) Yet these
were spared in their integrity by this bill. (Hear.) There
were points in the measure which it was impossible for hint
to defend. He must look at the question as a man of hush
nets. If the noble lord had'adher6d to his former measure
and excluded the consideration of the re-distribution of
seats, it would have, been a prudent measure ; but the noble
lord had not chosen to do that, whloh had placed him (Mr.
Massey) under the verydisagreeable necessity of going clown
to his constituents and becoming an agitator for another
Reform Bill. (Hear.) That was a position which he could
only, accept with great reluctance. Theao were solemn and
aerie-11s questiona which ought not to be inconsiderately
opened. We were not, like our opposite neighbours, one
day under a republic, the nest under a mongrel monarchy,
and after that a despotism. (Hear,) We lived under a
Constitution which had lasted 800 years, and ho touched
that vencrab!a fabric with difildeno.o and reluctance. If,
hoWever, he were asked, after thirty years, to take part in
amending the measure which was then a great measure, he
would say, let the propose% be consistent with that mea-
sure, and carried out in the same spirit, and then he would
help them to amend it. Tn the noble lord's farmer bills he
attempted to provide for the representation of minorities;
but he was very glad that he had now abandoned that idea.
The English people understood a fight and a victory, but
they know nothing of the representation of minorities.
The measure of the noble lord had been praised for its
simplicity. (Hear.) It was simple even to rudeness.
(Laughter.) He thought simplicity might be carried too
far. (Laughter.) It was easy to devise simple modes of
escaping from our serious difficulties ; but he did not think
such redo modes as these of cutting the Gordian knot
would entitle persons to be regarded as great statesmen,
or to claim credit for having conquered difficulties. The
great evil was, that they took these enormous areas and
flooded them with a great number of voters, and thus they
created monster constituencies. Now, all who were ac-
quainted with the working of our representative system in
this country would bear him out in saying that in proportion
as they increased the number of voters; beyond a -certain
limit, they dititinislied the value which each voter attached
to the frasselsise. He found himself a unit in the midst of
a vast mob, and did not attach a proper importance to his
vete. With these huge constituencies it was impossible
that a member could make himself acquainted with them.
People returned a stseroher whom they knew little or nothing
about. His nomination often #bit lute the hands of some
self-conslititted "association" or "club," and they elected
themselves into a sort of electoral college, found the candi-
date, prescribed hitpolitical creed, eoreesponded with him
on public subjects, and became a species of middlemen be-
tween the member and his constituents, (Hear, hear.) This
was - one of the most pernicious hatures of our electoral
system, and it was of the utmost importance that such a
state of things should be put an end to, (Hear, hear.) in
great boroughs they would find one district Conservative
and another district Liberal ; there was just as much differ-
ence often between two parts of the same borough as there
were between two different boroughs. (Hear.) He thought
that they ought to adopt the principle of the Reform Act of
1832, and as they divided the large °aunties, so they ought
to divide these monster borough constituencies. If this were
done no one need fear the flooding of these vast electoral
areas with a number of now voters, for they would find in
division a compensating circumstance. (Hear.) He thought
it a great disadvantage to members to bo scut to that house
who did-not know their constituents. (Hoar, hear.) Yet
this must be the case while the electoral districts were so
enormous. (Hear.) He was averse to novelty in such mat-
but this was not a novel principle, seeing that it was
recognised in the act of 1332. This division would interest
the voter in the franchise, it would familiarise the Candi-
date with his constituents,_ and it would avoid the middle-
men to whom he had referred. He would be glad •if some
hon. gentleman would take up those ideas and developo
them. They were not his ideas, but were the matured
opinions of the member for Rochdale. (Hear, hoar, and
cheers.) As the servant of the house, it would be his (Mn
Massey's) duty to sit in the chair when the details of this
measure were being 'discussed (hear, hear), and in that ssosi-
Con it would not be decent in him to urge upon the house
those matters of detail. (Hear, hear.) H hoped come hon.
gentleman, therefore, would consider the suggestions ho
had made, and would throw them into shape. (Hear, hear.)
There were also certain additions to the franchise which
might lie usefully introduced into the bill. He did not ap-
prove of " fancy franchises," but he could not regard the
" lodger franchise" as being " fancy" or sentimental. It
was anomalous to give to the occupier of a house a vote
which was denied to his lodgers, from-whom his sole income
was perhaps derived. He believed that from a lodger frane
chit's) they would get a valuable addition to the constituency
if they did not carry it too low. The measure, as it now
stood, was bald, naked, and repulsive. It was a dreary,
monotonous desert, which would bo agreeably varied by a
lodger franchise (hear, hear)—by an educational franchise
of some sort. (Hear, hear.) Ho hoped that the noble
lord would condescend to consider the suggestions which
had 'been made, and which might be thrown out during the
course of the debate, and that ho would revise his bill
accordingly; and that, if not, he would lend a willing ear
in commit tee to those suggestions, the object of which was
to improve the bill which he had introduced—to make it
worthy of his distinguished name, and a becoming settle-
ment to that great measure of 1832 which regenerated the
constitution of this country; and which conferred upon the
people' the blessings of good government and of enlightened
laws. (Cheers.)
Nr. STEUART belieied if this bill passed it would have
the effect of placing the right hon. gentleman the Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer in the position of a democratic leader
—a position in which he would be backed by the hon.
member' for Birmingham (Mr. Bright) ; and bearing in
mind how very versatile the right honourable gentleman
was, and how frequently and easily he had changed his
opinions, he should not be at all surprised to see him, per-
haps at no distant time, in that position. (Laughter.)
Mr. C.ROSSLEY did not think there was any ground for
apprehension, because the bill would extend the franohise
to a large number of the working classes. Wore they afraid
of the working classes ? (Nc.) Certainly not. The right
hon. baronet the member for Droitwich had that evening
called the bill a miserable bill; and another right host, gen-
tleman of his party had designated it as a pitiful Budget
Bill. Now, in his opinion, it was a bill which contained
much that was worthy of adoption by the house. Looking
at the various interests of the country, its shipping, its
farming; and, above all, its manufactures, they saw great
social progress ; and was it not, therefore, desirable that
they should move with the times, and extend the franchise ?
Ile had given notice that every male adult who said 40s. a
year in direct taxes ought to have a vote. (Hear, hear.)
And hero he should read a letter which ho received from
one of his constituents. The hon, gentleman here read the
letter, which described his correspondent as a clerk in a re-
spectable establishment, paying £4O a year rent and all
taxes, and yet he had no vote. He (Mr. Crossley) thought
it would be well if the noble lord had introduced a clause in
his bill to extend the franchise to lodgers. (Hear, hoar.)
Then, again, there was a fault in the bill which ought to be
amended—namely, that clause which said that the voter
must pay his assessed taxes by a partioular day. He hap-
pened to visit America,
and although he did netlike or ap-
prove of all their institutions, he must yet say that he saw
much there to approve of and that recommended itself to him.
Tn New York, for instance, he did not during his residence
there see a single beggar. in the streets, arid he did not think
there was that danger to the States which some hon. mem-
bers apprehended from the vast numbers who were there
entrusted with the franchise. Then, as to the working classes
of this country, he had much intercourse with them, and
he had every reason to speak in the highest terms of their
merits and their worth. In sickness and in distress, there
were no better friends, no hotter neighbours. (Htar, hear.)
Why, then, should they not be entrusted with the fran-
chise ? They said, "We only want a fair share of the suf-
frage—we don't want any overwhelming influence—we
don't want a monopoly—ail wo want is to have a voice in
tire representation of thepeople, and in those matters which
concern the great interests of the country." (Hear, hear.)
For those reasons, then, he should, give his vote for the se-
cond reading of he bill; calculated as it was to give the
working classes a share in tho elective franchise. (Hoar.).
Mr. KER SEYMER 'said that lion. gentlemen above
and below the gangway on the opposite side of the house
who had spoken, expressed themselves favourable to a £6
franchise, and among them was the hon. gentleman who
had spoken last. That hon. gentleman spoke of the Mee;

sure even more favourably than any of the hon, members
who preceded him. Now, seeing that the hon.-gentleman
was connected with the West Riding of Yorkshire, and that
the 'West Riding, by the provision of the bill, would if the

measure passed, have four members in future, the hon. gen-
tleman seetned greatly pleased with the bill ; but as far as
he could understand the meaning of the hon. gentleman, it
Was that we travelled very fast by sea and land, and there-
fore we should have a very large Reform Bill. (Laughter.)
But thoughtful men, both on that and the other side of the

distribution of seats, he thought the bill a failure. It doubled
the groat constituencies. The extension of the franchise

house, ana thoughtful men, also, out of the house, viewed

the bill with very great alarm—(hear, hear)—and the house

was greater Allan in the bill of 1832. The new electors

-would remember that the bill of 1832 was also viewed with

under this bill would be numerically superior to an the
others, and they could return their own members in the

very great alarm. That bill effected great chantes in the

great seats .of commerce and industry. The measure was

most extensive and fearless in that direction, and if it had

actual constitution of the House of Commons. An hon

been accompanied with an extensive measure of disfran-

chiseinent he would have said it was consistent. But
if they were to consider this bill as a settlement of the

Reform question, -it must,: besides extending' the fran-

cliiie wisely, be accompanied by a corresponding re-dis-

t libation of seats. But there was the defect of this tnea-

sure. lie could not understand how any English gen-

tleiaan who based his desire for Reform upon a

member used the argument that because the bill of 1832
did not do harm, therefore another Reform Bill would

re-distribution of seats could be satisfied with this measure.

•
not do harm. Now, he thought that argument was
a very unfair one. (Hear, hear.) It had been said
out of doors that this bill, in giving votes to the work-
ing-claescs, would but expose thorn to the influences
of corrupt practices at elections. Now, he would nover give
to the working-clas!,es a vote with one hand, and, on the
other, expose them with their votes to the influences of cor-
rupt prao ices at elections. The hon. member for Birming-
ham said the other day, alluding to this bill, that it would
unsettle the whole question. Now, what did the noble lord
himself think of that

Mr. B Y IGHT—I did not say any such thing. I said, so
far as the disfranchisement of seats it did not settle the
question. I did not say as so related to the franchise.
Mr. KEIt SEYM:ER could not quite understand the
hon. member for Birmingham. lle would, however, read
the passage from the hon..member's speech to which he
referred. The hon. gentleman said, "You unsettle every-
thing, and you disfranchise in tho distribution of seats.
(Laughter; and cries of Hoar, hear.) The hon. member
looked only at numbers, but he (Mr. K. Seymer) looked at
fitness. He did net 'care htm ninny were rejected if they
were unfit,: nor how many were admitted if t,,,b7 were fit.
No one could more deplore the oNisteime or bribery than
he did, but it was certainly to be observed that there was
!Mich less of it in counties than there wasin boroughs. And
the reason was very obvious. The county constituencies
were spread over an extensive surface of country, spirit
was impossible for corrupt agencies Co Ivork 492 them in
,
•

Indeed; the hot. member for Birmingham admitted he

was not satisfied on that point. The noble lord drew a
line, and said all places below five thousand returning two
members shall henceforth return but one member to Par-
liament. That' gave him just 25 seats for distribution. Did
the noble lord suppose that would satisfy the advocates for
re-distribution? (Hear.) Why, he must be sanguine in
deed if lie thought that could by any posSibility settle the
question. (Hear.) He now came to the constituency which
he had the honour to represent, the borough of Salford,
which was the largest borough in England represented by
a single member, Tie was not coming to the house to sue
in forma pauperis for a Soomtd member, but be was otli,Y
brintrint, forward this as an illustration. , It they were to

brink in a Reform Bill not demanded by any practical grie-
vano, but introduced to adjust and settlo theoretical and

44.. •

as far as was proposed by this bill, he thought they had
better not attempt to legislate at all. No measure short of
that of the noble lord would at all meet the exigencies of
the case. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. WHITESIDE observed that in 1782 Pitt said he
could not venture to touch the ark of the constitution with
unhallowed hands, and Mr. Fox remarked that if all the
wise men in the world met 'in solemn conclave they could
not frame a perfect constitution. He (Mr. 'Whiteside) was
inclined to that opinion. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member
for Halifax said there was On apathy on the subject of the
Reform Bill, and accounted for it on this principle—that the
English people had become " rigid philosophers." But he
(Mr. Whiteside) believed that whenever the English people
felt deeply they expressed themselves strongly. (Heer,
hear.) If they approved of this Reform Bill they would
speak out unmistakeably on the subject. (Hear, hear.)
The hon. member for Birmingham said the bill was intro-
duced in accordance with a promise made by the noble lord
(Lord J. Russell) when he sat on the Opposition aide of the
house.
Mr. BRIGHT—I did not say he introduced the bill on
that account. (Order.)
Mr. WHITESIDE said the words of the hon. gentle-
men were, that the bill was introduced in redemption of a
pledge given by the noble lord when he was on the Opposi-
tion side of the house. That was substantially the state-
ment made by the hon. member. (Hear, hear.) Now, a
worse argument than that could not be adduced. He (Mr.
Whiteside) admitted it to be a fact that the noble lord,
when on the Opposition side of the house, threw out a hint
as to what a reform bill ought to be ; but now the hon.
member for. Birmingham had informed the house that the
bill was brought forward in redemption of a pledge. Was
that an argument to justify the introduction of the bill ?
The right hon. member' the Chancellor of the Duchy of
Lancaster said the Government could not succeed in re-
taining the confidence of their supporters if they brought
in a bill which conferred a lesser extension of the franchise,
(Hear, hear.) Now, the confidence of the house meant the
confidence of the majority. But did this prove that the bill
was a good one ? It was the duty of enlightened statesmen.
not to pander to the prejudices of the majority, but to intro-,
duce such measures as would be conducive to the permanent
welfare of the country. (Hear, hear.) The hon. giiitle-
man who spoke last gave the house a specimen of statistical
rhetoric, from which it might be inferred that, in hie opinion,
the interests of the whole of Great Britain and Irehuid were
concentrated in Leeds. (Laughter.) When the, right hon.
gentleman the member for Buckinghamshire spoke of tho
homogeneous mass of persons that were to b added. to the
electoral body, the hon. member who spoke last imagined
that they would be all plasterers. (Laughter.) The hon.
member for Carlisle—wh,o was a chip of the old block—(a
laugh)—said the ballot was said to be unfit for small
boroughs, and was cm tainly not so applicable to them as to
large ones, but in the supplementary Reform Bill which
must follow, the small boroughs would be extinguished.
The hon. member for Birmingham said that the transfer
of seats was the pith and marrow of every Reform Bill,
but that the measure before the house did not settle, but
unsettled that question. According to high Parliamentary
authority, then, they were about to unsettle everything
and to settle nothing—a piece of statesmanship that did
infinite credit to these hon. gentlemen who occupied seats
on the Treasury bench. The hon. member for Bir-
mingham went further, and declared that it was impos-
sible the question of reform could remain permanently
where it was about to be placed by this bill. The old
doctrine, then, of finality was exploded, and one Reform
Bill was only regarded as valuable because it led to further
change. Would the hon. member for Birmingham permit
him to ask was his principle to reform the constitution or
to reconstruct it ? If he desired to reconstruct, then his
task was not one of reform, but of revolution, and he (Mr.
Whiteside) declined to argue the question with him.
(Hear, hear.) When the hon. member announced that the
population of England was six or seven millions, and that
only one million were voters, what did he mean by that
argument ? Did he mean by that to infer that the rest
should bo adinitted to the enjoyment and exercise of the
franchise ? At what time did the English constitution re-
cognise the sovereignty of the people ? At no time. To
argue that the masses should be admitted to the franchise
was to argue against law, against the history of England,
and the principles of the constitution. They had made
improvements in steamboats and railways, but they were
surpassed in political wisdom by the abnoimis sayentia of
their ancestors. He should like to know whether a
veer, such as was now proposed, could discharge the duties
which the elector discharged in former times. There was
no instance on record of men being represented becauei of.
their numbers. Were hon. gentlemen opposite going to ad-
mit the working classes to the franchise because they were
working classes ? The only ground for admitting them was
that of their having an independent will, sufficient property,
loyalty, and political capacity. It did not matter in that
case how numerous they were. The more the better. No
proof, not an iota, had been adduced to show that those
bodies of the working classes possessed that political capa-
city. The hon. member for Birmingham had spoken of the
admirable workmanship of the artisans of Manchester, but
at present they were net seeking for a good stonemason or ,
plasterer, but for persons who had political capacity. As a
the
metropolis,of o f the stateht, f
of feeling
t
e among
a pamphlet
workinghebyitr. .
r classesott
Potter, r t
secretary to the trades unions. lie did not think that the :0
employers of these men would get their votes if they bad
them. In the pamphlet in question the writer spoke of the want of courtesy on tie part of the masters to the men who
waited on them, of their conduct as being tyrannical over
individuals and insulting to the whole body. It then went
on to speak of the conduct of the masters during the strike, •
and that nothing, remained for the workmen but the right
of combination in order to compel the masters to give
them the same pay for nine as for ten hours' work.
(Hear, hear.) That, the workmen said, was their political
economy. The writer went on to attribute the soul and
body crushing effect of toil to the failur=e of mechanics' in-
stitutes, as well as the small number of workmen who had
risen to a better position, compared with those who had
given no more proof pf spiritual or political capacity than
the brutes that perished. Ought they to 'give political
power to such men ? In mercy to the men themselves,
they should refuse them a power whichthey admitted they
were not qualified to exercise. In another pamphlet, en-
titled " Trades' Union Strikes ; their Philosophy and In-
tentions," from which he read several extracts, it was con-
tended that labour might be stolen by'the predatory, capi-
talist, and several false ideas of the relationship between
master and workmen were put forward. These men said
that they would persevere until they succeeded in obtain-
ing the nine hours movement. This was the result of this
great organisation. amongst 'the working classes. The right
hon. gentleman then went on to quote further extracts from
the work, to show that the best men of the workingclasses
wore identified in the views to which he had already ad,-
verted ? The theory of these views was this—that they
did not seem to sympathise with the hon. members for Bir-
mingham (Mr. Bright) or Rochdale (Mr. Cobden), and he
(Mr. Whiteside) wished to ask the house how it was justi-
fied in transferring so much political power to a class of
men who entertained the notions which were here enun-
ciated. Did hon. members read the proceedings which
had taken place in the American Assembly, and which
had appeared in the journals that day ? There an eminent
orator showed that a. minority of slave owners had suc-
ceeded in getting rid of every law of the country to pro-
mote their own selfish object. If such had been done in
that country, the institutions of which were so much ad-
mired by the hon. member for Birmingham, what might
not be effected by an organised minority in this country
having the same parposelin view (Hear.) He was
sorry the hon. member for Birmingham was not in his
place to hear this. He was seldom so at the right
tthimeeh.ous(Le anusgiht o
(Laughter.) Looking Looking then at the measure before
ho asked why was it that they were
asked to make this jump in the dark? (Hear.) The late
Sir Robert Peel, in legislating en the Catholic question, said
they could not govern a country with a large body of free-
holders. The Irish 40s. freeholders were not an inimoral
body of men, but they were ignorant, and in their ignorance
they would have got rid of church, law, and property. Ho
then got rid of the 40s, freehold system, and raised the
franchise to £lO. That franchise was subsequently altered
to a £l2 rating clause in counties, and an Y-S rating clause
in boroughs and cities. The Attorney-General for Ireland,
however, proposed now to change that rating to a lower
sum, although the alteration was not asked for by a " tra-
velling tinker or a loquacious barber." (Laughter.) He
could not comprehend what was the nature of the bill be-
fore them, but he trusted the house would consider it
calmly ; and he was sure that Parliament would listen to
any suggestions that could be made for its improvement,
by which the constitution of England would be secured to
the people in all its purity and integrity.
Mr. EDWIN JAMES moved the adjournment of the
debate.

compact masses. He denied, too, that they were slaves in
the sense which had been implied in the assertion. The
hon. member for Birmingham did not like county constitu-
encies, because there was a strong Conservative feeling
among the yeomanry, who sent hint (Mr. K. Seymer) and
other hon. gentlemen like him, to oppose the hon. member,
and to tell him that, with all his ability and honesty of
purpose, he was a dangerous politician. That was why the
hon. gentlemen did not like the county constituencies.
The hon. gentleman said, " Why are you afraid to trust
the people ?" The hon. gentleman evidently trusted
them, and trusted their ignorance, too, or else he would
surely not venture to repeat in an assembly of educated
men the language he had screetirues held out of
doors, when he infirmed his hearers that the landed gentry
of the country kept up large armaments because they de-
sired to make them the means of providing their brothers
and SOW with emolument. Why, the fact was that they
paid much more as their share of income-tax than the
scanty pay doled out to those who received it. Now, one
reason why he and others were alarmed at this bill was,
that the class of men who were to be admitted to an exer-
cise of the franchise would be very likely, after having been thus excited against them and made to belieVe that they
had been robbed in the taxation that had fallen upon them,
to turn round upon their supposed oppressors and adopt
measures which they (the gentry) would consider unjust.
He contended that the expense of representation lay, after
all, not in numbers or in wealth, but in the character of the
members themselves. The Government had a majority in
the house but he still had such confidence in its good sense
that he did not doubt that in the further course of the dis-
cussion on the subject they might be enabled to make the
bill what it was not now, a bill for the better representation
of the people.
Mr. E. BArNES saki; though he was about to support
the measure of the Government, he hoped that in doing so
he should not subject himself to the taunt just uttered
against the hon. member for the West Riding (Mr. Cross-
ley), namely, that he was influenced in favour of the bill by
the fact that an additional vote was given to the place which
he repkesonted. It was true that an ad litional member was
given to Leeds—(Opposition laughter)---but it was well
known to maw members of that house that he had for
years entertained the opinions which he had risen to ex-
press. For years he had believed that it would be safe,
wise, and right to lower the borough franchise to £6.
That was the great distinguishing feature of the bill before
the house, and he hoped that the figures he was about to
give by way of illustration, with regard to Leeds, would
tend to dispel the alarm which was felt on the other side
with regard to the probable effect of the measure. He
would, however, first notice the objection of. the right
honourable gentleman the member for Bucks, that
in this bill there was no principle ; that though the franchise
was brought down from £lO to £6, there was nothing to
indicate the fitness of the voter. There was the same prin-
ciple involved in a £6 as in a £lO franchise, or in 40s. free-
holds, and the objection of the right hon. gentleman ap-
plied just as much to the existing system as to that which
was about to be established. £6 was a very much higher
rental than that of most of the houses occupied by the work-
ing °lessee, and as the occupation of a house with such a
rental indicated sobriety, industry, good morals, and good
habits, it included, in his opinion, those moral and social
qualification*, which the right hon. gentleman summed up
in the one word "fitness." The "fancy franchises" of the
right hon. gentleman were objected to, he believed, chiefly
because they were proposed as a substitute for the extension
of the franchise to the working classes. Indeed, the right
hon. baronet the member for Hertford (Sir E. B. Lytton)
advocated the bill of the late Government expressly on the
ground that it kept the representation in the hands of the
middle classes. - Another objection, however, to the present
bill was that it enfranchised a great number of persons who,
being a vast homogeneous mass, would exercise a prepon-
derating influence in the borough constituencies to which
they belonged. Now, he was convinced that that was a
great mistake. At present the borough constituenciesnum-
bared 400,000; only 200,000 at the utmost would be added
by the bill; and how could the 200,000 exercise a prepon-
derating influence over the 400,000 ? He had taken some
pains to ascertain what effect the bill was likely to produce
in that respect in the borough which he represented. At
present the constituency was 6,000, by the bill 4,000 would
bo added, making a total of 10,000. The treasurer of the
council of Leeds, who had to do with the collection of rates
and other business of the same kindall his life had collected
statistics with regard to the new elections, being assisted in so
doing by an experienced ratepayer. After stating that the
total number of new electors would be -4,000 persons, they
estimated the number of those who were strictly operatives
at 2,500, who were among the most intelligent and best-
skilled working men of their class. Three schedules relating
to these persons were furnished. The first included those
who occupied houses of from £6 to £7. The trades to which
the persons included in it belonged indicated that there
would be extreme difficulty in their organisation for any
political purpose. There were cloth dressers, dyers, and
mechanics of various kinds; masons, bricklayers, plasterers,
and joiners. The second schedule included persons who
paid from £7 to £B, ands there were to be found cloth
pressers, warehousemen, iron and brass moulders, brush-
makers, wood-turners, curriers, and leather-dressers, and
so on. In the third schedule, which comprised houses of
from £8 to £lO, were retail shopkeepers of all kinds, book-
keepers and assistant clerks, and printers. These facts
would, he hoped, satisfy those who thought that-the now
electors were such a homogeneous class that they might be
combined for any political purpose. The whole number of
electors under this bill, including both the old and the new
voters, was estimated at only 607,000. The population of
the boroughs, which in the year 1851 amounted to 7,432,000,
at the present day must amount to about 9,000,000. The
adult males would be about one fourth of the whole number,
that was to say, 2,225,000, so that the voters could only be
about one fourth of the adult male population. The popu-
lation of the upper and middle classes was about one-fourth
of the whole, and the lower classes about three-fourths, and
inasmuch as the whole number of electors was little more
than a fourth of the whole adult population, he believed the
hon. member for Birmingham was far wrong when he said
that only about 100,000 of the voters in boroughs would be-
long to the working class. He thought the number might be
150,000, and assuming the maximum number, what was there
to alarm them so greatly that the working classes, who were
throe-fourths of the population, should torm one-fourth of
the number of electors ? Allow him to ask what proportion
of the working classes they thought it right and just, and
reasonable and safe, should have the franchise. Because if
150,000 of them were admitted to it, look at the enormous
number who were excluded. They did not bring in more
than about one in ten. In many boroughs they brought in
ono in five, but in many others not more than one in ten.
He believed that those occupying houses of the value of be-
tween £6 and £lO, who would now be admitted to the fran-
chise for the first time, represented an amount of moral and
intellectual fitness so great for the exercise of thofranchise,
that it could not with safety be withheld from them. The
noble lord who introduced this bill first appeared as a Par-
liamentary
Reformer in 1820, when he proposed to take the
anchise from Grantham and 'confer it upon Leeds, and it
was then said in that house that the leading banker of
Leeds had written to say that if the franchise were given to
the £lO householders of Leeds he ,should he obliged to shut
up his bank. Contrast the social condition of that borough
in the present day with what it was in 1820. Her Majesty
went down to honour the town of Leeds by opening the
Town-hall about a year and a half ago, and on that occa •
sion she passed in her carriage along many miles of streets,
through half a million of people, without one syllable of
rudeness being uttered, and amid the heartiest expressions
of loyalty. He believed in the loyalty of the working classes,
and that there was amongst them a conservative feeling of
the best kind, and he 'believed that if they wanted to snake
them conservative in the best manner they would accom-
plish the object by admitting them to the
privileges of the
constitution. He wished to call the attention of those who
took an interest in the social condition of the community
to a few facts with regard to the borough of Leeds. First,
with regard to savings banks, there were 12,878 open
accounts, and £338,000 invested. Of the West Ridin

penny savings bank, there were eleven branches in
the borough, which were receiving at the rate of £BO
'a week, and there were numerous savings banks connected
with Sunday schools, mechanics' institutions, and other
institutions of the town. The friendly societies com-
prised 22,543 members ; the benefit building societies 7,581
members ; and he might mention the remarkable fact that
they bad invested a sum of no less than £900,000. The me-
chanics' institutions, and similar institutions, were no less
than 26 in number, and their members amounted to 5,556.
There were 133 Sunday sChools, taught by 5,274 teachers,
and comprising 35,000seholars. There were 371 day schools
—that was in the year 1851—of which 76 were public and
295 were private, and they included 21,831 scholars. There
was a town mission employing 16 agents ; the Temper-
ance Society numbered 3,000 persons, and there were two
co-operative flour mills, one of which had 3,200 members,
shareholders, and they had a capital of £11,795. There was
one point more, showing the amount of intelligence which
existed in the town ; and hero he would institute a compa-
rison as well as he could between the year 1820 and the year
1860. He had endeavoured to ascertain what was the num-
ber of newspapers circulated in Leeds daily and weekly in
those two periods. He believed that in 1820 the number of
daily papers circulated in Leeds did not exceed 1,000, the
number now was 3,800: In 1820 the number of weekly
papers was not more than 3,000, the number now was 17,300.
The number of literary, scientific, and religious weekly
periodicals sold in Leeds at a former period ho was certain,
at a liberal estimate, did not exceed 500. The number now
was 21,742 per week. Then, 'of monthly publications he
would assume that at the former period there were 500 cir-
culated, which was a liberal estimate, whereas the number
now sold in Leeds was 12,603. These facts, which indicated
so great an amount of social progress in Leeds, were only a
sample of what had taken place in other boroughs. Tho
general educational statistics he would not allude to further
than to say that between 1818 and 1851 the day schools
in-
creased 218 par cent., while the population increased only
54 per cent. That was surely an indication of that great
social progress which was the greatest justification of, nay
had rendered necessary, the bill of the noble lord. It would
be unsafe for Parliament to shut out men who had such
intelligence and such laudable habits as he had proved the
people of our large boroughs possessed. Ho believed there
wa truth in tho statement that the filite of the working
classes were more independent than those who were
higher in the social vale. He admitted that there was
much to remt, among them. Out of 50,000 adult males
they were still only giving the franchise to 10,000 in the
borough ofl.eeds. Vorty thousand were still left out of the
zdo of the eoustilqtion. If they did not extend the imehjse

Lord J. RUSSELL said he was ready to go on with the
debate, but as the house maned disposed to adjourn it, he
would not interfere with the wishes of the house.
Lord PALMERSTON, in reply to Mr. DISRAELI, said
that in all probability it would be better at once to move
that the debate be adjourned until Monday.
It was accordingly adjourned to that day.
ENDOWED SCHOOLS (No. 3) BILL (LORDS).
This bill passed through committee.
The Consolidated Fund (£850,000) Bill was read a second
time.

The house then adjourned at half-past twelve o'clock.

BIRTHS.
CUST.—On the 22d inst., at 13, Eccleston-square, the Lady
Elizabeth Cust, of a daughter.
FORDYCE.—On the 21st inst., at 7, Dacre-park-terrace,
Blackheath, the wife of Colonel Fordyce, Bengal 144.,
of a son.

PAGET.—On the 20th inst. at Stuston Rectory, Scole, the
Hon. Mrs. Edward Pagel, of a son.
TYSSEN.—On the 15th inst., at Yarmouth, the wife of Com-
mander Tysseu, R.N., of a daughter.

MARRIAGES.
GOLDSMITII—BULLEN.—On the 20th inst., at Charlton,
Kent, Henry P. Goldsmith, Esq., to Ellen, the eldest
daughter of Richard Bullen, Esq., and niece of the late
Admiral Sir Chas. Mullen, G.C.8., G.C.H.
SYKES—Coorm—On the 20th inst., at All Saints', Nor-
wood, Nicholas Richard Sykes, Esq., to Catherine Eliza.
beth, second daughter of the late Richard IV. Cooper,
Esq., of Longford Ledge, Kingstown, cu. Dublin.

DEATHS;
13ALFOUIL—On the 20th inst., at Pilrig House, Edinburgh
James Balfour, Esq., W.S., aged 87.
Boveutn.—On the 20th inst., John Boucher, Esq., of Bel-
ford Lodge, Clapham-road.
CAMPEELL.—On the 20th inst., at 10, Houghton-01640
Ampthill-square, Robert Campbell, Esq., aged 82.
FOTHERINGHAM.—On. the 19th inst., at King bridge
House, Southampton, Lieut.-Col. Robert H. Fothoring-
ham, 11.E.1.C., aged 82.
PIIILLIPS.—On the 19th inst., at 67, Oakley-square, N.W.,
William Lovell Phillips, R.A.M., aged 43.
TYSSEN.—On the 21st inst., at Yarmouth, Eleanor Mar-
garet, wife of Commander Tysscn, R.N., aged 39..

LONDON : Printed and Published by MURI)O YOUNG
of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at The Sun Office, No. 112,
Strand, in the Preoinot of the Savoy, in the ootuar
Middlesex, Friday, March 23, 1860.