The Sun.
London, England, 1860-06-08 00:00:00

411 E SITN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, JUNE 8, 1860,

BRITISH POSSESSIONS.

a third time. The Hay Railway Bill was considered and
ordered for third reading.

lsing
Share) Railways. Paid. C Business done
Forice.
100 Atlantic &St Lawrence all _B5 87 864
Bom.,Baroda&.Cent Ind_
stk r 100 961 974
( Gu. 5 per cent.. ....
18 Do, Do. •B
134 / d 4 d
204 Buffalo and Lake Huron all 44 5 d 44
20. Do. New
10 Do. Preference .. .
100 i Buffalo,Brant&Godr•ic•h 100 75 80
I 6 p. ct. bds. Aug. 1, 1872
100 Do. do. July 1, 1873 100 70 75
100 Do. do. June 1, 1874 100 68 73
5 Clcutta.&S.Eastn. (Lim) 1. 30. 1 d 41,
20 Cape,Eastn.Prov. (Lim.) 2s.
20 Cape Town & Dock Scrip 3s. 24 14 d
20 Ceylon Guarantd. 6p. c. 71 14 4 .• 64
174 Demerara all
20 Eastn. Bengal gu. sp. c 5 1 1d 44
stock East Indian, gu. sp. a. 100 102 1024 1024 42 4 4
20 Do. F Shares Ext lO par 4 p
20 Do. Jubbulpore lO par 4 p
100 Do. 44 pc. Debentrs all 984 99 991
stock Do. .5 p. c. Deb., 1864 all 1001 1011 1014 1
20 Geelong & Melbourne all 21 22
sto. Geelong Corporation 6 100 _
per cent. Bonds
stock Grand Trunk of Canada 100 31 32 314 4
100 Do. 6 per cent. Pref all 91 93
100 Do. 6 per et. Debentr all 60 83 611 1
100 Do. 7 per cent. 1862
100 Do. do. 1867 all 05 70
100 Do. do. 1872 all 65 70
stock GtlndiaPenin.gua.sp.c lOO 991 1001 1001 1
20 Do. New atm.., p. c 6 4d 1 d :54
20 Gt. South.of India (Lim) 10 11 14d ' 4
guaranteed 5 per cent.
204 Gt. W. of Canada Shares all 12/ 124
204 Do. New
100 Do. Bonds pay. '76, with all 98 100
opt, till '6O
100 Do. do. '73 till '60...... all 98 100
100 Do. do. '73 without opt. all '9B 100
100 Do. 51 p. c. do. '77 d 0... all 92 94 •
stock Madras, guar., 44 p. c... 100 88 90
stock Do. do. 5 per cent. .. _ 100 98 99 981 4
stock Do. 41 p. C. Extension 100 91 93 921
20 Do. Fourth d 0........ 10 14 / d
20 Do. d 0..... - .... all
stock Melb.Corp. 6p. c. Bnds. 100
20 Ry.&Land(Lim.)g.6pc
NewErunswick & Canda •
all 5 7
Class A Capital Share
Do. do. Land do ........
20 Do. do. B Capital d 0...
Do. do. Land do. .... all 5 7
20 Oude (Limited) ...... :• . ss.
i stock Scinde ...• ...... 6.,..; 100 100 101 1004
20 Do. Pnnjaub .... ca all 14 d 1 d
20 Do. Dl. .... .. t 5 d
stock Do. Indus:St. Flo. , gc,',S., 100 95 91 954 1
20. StAndrews & Quebec A 18
10 Trinidad (Lim.) Scrip.. 1 1 1 d
COLONIAL GOVERNMENT ,SECURITIES.
Can. Gov. 6 p.c.Ja. & J uly 100 114 116
- Do. 6p. cent 18St- 100 -
- Do. 6p. cent. 1881 100 -
- Do. 6p. cent 1882 100 -
- Do, 6p. c. Feb. & Aug. Do 110 112
Do. 6p. e. Mar. & Sept. 100 110 112
- ( Do. 5 per cent lOO 102 1024 1024
i DO. Scri
N.8.64v. 0 42 - 45
pc. sa.&•July 100 108 109
Do. 6p. a Ap. & Oct. 100 _
N. S. W. Gov. 6p. c., 1866 100 100 101
Do. sp. c.. 1871 to 187& 100 Ico 101
Do. 5 p.c.,lBBB,tupwds' 100 100 101
Nova Scotia Gov. t; 2. al
S.Aus.Gt.6p.c.lB7B &up.l 100 110 112
. sterling, 1875 .. . llOO 1103 109 109
Vic. Gov. 6 p.c. Ja.&July 100
I Do. do. 6 p.c. Ap.&Oct 100 1064 1074. 1074

PETITIONS.

Several petitions were presented in favour of the intro -
duction of some measure to amend the present defective
mode of registering births and deaths, for the opening of
the British Museum and other public institutions on Sun-
day, &c.

THIR EDITION.

SUN OFFICE, Seven o'clock.

THE INSURRECTION IN
SICILY.

The following telegram has been received at Mr.
Reuter's office :

GENOA, JUNE 8.

News from Sicily states that a capitulation has
been concluded between Generallza and Gari-
baldi.

'The conditions are not known.

ASCOT RACES.—(This Day.)

[BY ELECTRIC TELEGRAPH.]
VISITORS' PLATE (Run on Wednesday).

Plumper disqualified, and Neoptolemus gets the stakes.
THIRD CLASS WOKINGHAM HANDICAP.
Suburban 1
Philomela
Convivialist •
.. 3

Six ran.
SWEEPSTAKES OF 50 SOUS.

Trovatore

Walked over.

FIRST CLASS WOKINGHAM HANDICAP
Prelude
Predictor
White Rose ,

Fourteen ran.
SOUTH-WESTERN PLATE.

Amsterdam
Sneer filly
South Australian

Twelve ran.
SECOND-CLASS WOKINGHAM HANDICAP.
Horace -
Mentmore
Penalty 3

Twelve ran.
QUEEN'S PLATE.

Avalanche
Promised Land
Cougreve

Five ran.
ENGLEMERE PLATE.

Ticket-of-Leave
Niger
Six ran.
SWEEPSTAKES OF 30 SOVS.
The Wizard walked over.
_ _

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS—(YESTERDAY.)
PARLIAMENTARY REFORM.
Lord TEYNHAM then moved the following resolu-
tions :—" That this house, greatly desiring the settlement
of the question of Parliamentary Reform, for the satisfac-
tion of men's minds, for the sake of the peace of the coun-
try, and that the business of Parliament may be pro-
ceeded with without let, is willing to give its most careful
consideration to the prayer of the petitions which have
been presented to it in favour of manhood suffrage and vote
by ballot; this being the broadest basis for the elective
franchise which has been presented to it by petition : That
this house hopes to discern them who for any reason ought
not to 11 allowed a vote, and to point out means whereby
improper persons may be deprived of the franchise after it is
legally possessed ; so that, on the one hand, no man shall
be left without the franchise against whom no just or suf-
ficient reason for his disfranchisement can be assigned ;
and, on the other hand, no man shall be put on the list
of voters, or continued thereon, against whom just
grounds of disfranchisement can be alleged and proved :
That this house is, therefore, prepared to recommend such
alterations in the criminal, vagrant, and poor laws as shall
appear necessary to cut off from the register of voters all
improper persons. In this way the house hopes to grant
the spirit of the prayer of its petitioners for manhood suf-
frage and vote by ballot, not only without detriment to the
common weal, but with great advantage to the same."
The noble lord said that besides the few petitions he then
had the honour to present to their lordships, in an earlier
part of the session he had presented very numerous peti•
tions, principally from Northumberland and Cumberland, in
favour of universal suffrage and vote by ballot, and from
other parts of the country in favour of the ballot alone.
Deeply conscious of his weakness and incompetence
to perform the task he had undertaken, he had ven-
tured to address their lordehips, sheltered by the peti-
tions of the people, At the same time he must candidly
admit that he fully adopted those statements, and in the
remarks which he was about to address to their lord-
ships, he wished to be understood that he fully approved
in his conscience the truth and justice of the cause he was
advocating. There were formerly colonies of this country
which it pleased Parliament, iu their wisdom, to endeavour
to tax. The people of these colonies—not of one or of some,
but of all thirteen put together—rose in:opposition to that
attempt. They were told that in like manner there was a.
very large number of unrepresented persons in the United
Kingdom who were in the same position, and who not-
withstanding all that had been said and done, were like so
many dead men's bones. But the experience of the United
States bade him hope better things concerning them
namely, that the same views would breathe life into these
dead men's bones. In the contest for truth, in the struggle
for justice, almost uniformly the battle was of the weak
against the strong—eventually the weak had triumphed.
Now the unrepresented in England were weak and poor;
yet history led to the belief that better hopes might not in
vain be entertained for them. He had therefore ventured to
undertake the cause of the unrepresented inatheir lordships'
house, !wiling that if he aid not, it was not likely that an-
other would take his place. (Hear.) The sum and substance
of his motion was this—that their lordships would be will-
ing to give their most careful consideration to the prayer of
the petitioners in favour of universal suffrage and vote by
ballot ; and if their lordships thought fit, that a select
committee or royal commission might be appointed to in-
quire into what was necessary to be done in order that
the prayer of the petition might be granted. In
an eloquent speech recently made by Mr. Gladstone,
he had fully admitted the right of the governed to make
choice of their governors. In that sentiment-he fully
agreed, and at the same time he congratulated the Univer-
sity of Edinburgh on the choice which they had recently
made by the selection of so able and eloquent a man as
Mr. Gladstone to be their rector. The petitions which he
had presented had in many instances been signed only by
the chairman presiding at public meetings, who thus repre-
sented the views of hundreds and thousandeof persons. A
common idea seemed to prevail that the unrepresented were
—if he might use the expression—represented by those who
were represented, and that Parliament had become the
trustee for a majority of the people. On this subject he
would venture to remind their lordships of what had been
said by Burke. (The noble lord read several passages fr9m
one of Burke's speeches, and continued.) Let their lord-
ships only compare the circumstance% under which they
were then met and those under which Edmund Burke ad-
dressed the other House of Parliament. At that time there
were some hundred thousand descendants of the people of
this country living beyond the sea whom it was endeavoured
to tax; but the attempt was resisted, and the result of the
conflict was crowned with success. He therefore prayed their
lordships to grant his plea to-day. He begged to direct their
attention to the way in which universal suffrage bad been
presented to the human mind. In every age and time the
greatest truths had been taught by means of fables, and
their lordships remembered the parable of the trees
who met to choose a king, and when the olive
and the vine were asked to reign, they refused,
Finally, as they well knew, the choice fell upon the
bramble. Next to the sacred writings, he might refer to
Shakspcare, and the language put into the mouth of Brutus
in Julius Caesar would occur to their lordships' recollection.
It might be said that the right to vete was merely an ab-
stract one ; but abstract or not It was a right, and being a
right might be pleaded, and being pleaded it was one to
which just men would give heed, The doctrine of univer-
sal suffrage was taught anologically by the arms borne by
the different republics, in which equal prominence was
given to the symbol of each state. Thus in the/Helvetic
Confederation each canton was represented by two depu-

I votes, and they should ask that that and the other
acts which hung upon it should be repealed.
There was an appeal from Parliament to the
common law, and he thought the unenfranchised
should choose au irreproachable man living in a county, and
en his behalf plead in a court of common law to have his
name put upon the register, though the statute of Henry
VI. did not permit it. The first Parliament of King
Charles 11. passed an act declaring the Parliament then
sitting a lawful Parliament, notwithstanding any want of
writs, or other defect ; and the first Parliament of William
and Mary also passed an act to the like effect, and if the
non-electors, when they had failed in their petitions and
failed in their application to the courts of common law,
were to choose their own representatives, and those repre-
sentatives assembled at Westminster and called themselves
the Commons House of Parliament, he questioned very
much whether it would not in deed and in truth be the
Commons House of Parliament; and it might be that not
in two instances, but in three, it might be read by their
children hereafter that a Parliament, summoned not by
ordinary writ, met at Westminster, and determined itself
to be the Parliament then and there. His notice of motion
referred to the practical manner in which the question ought
to be dealt with. He thought they ought not to give, as
in France, the vote to persons in the army and the navy,
nor should it be granted to criminals or paupers. He would
not detain their lordehips long on the question of the ballot,
but he was bound to refer to it as it was part of his motion.
The ballot was not only used in certain cases by the House
of Commons in the reign of Queen Anne, but in the reign
of Queen Elizabeth it was employed by the Presbyterians
of Northamptonshire, who were by no means a cowardly
set of people. Then how could it be said to be un-English,
when it was still resorted to in the reign of Queen Victoria
by our fellow-Englishmen the colonists of Australia P He
allowed that the electoral franchise was a trust; but the
voter should therefore be enabled fairly and fearlessly to
discharge that trust. He NM acting judicially when he had
to decide on the fitness of a candidate, and for his conduct in
That capacity he could not legally be called to account, so
that there was no ground for making his vote public. In
conclusion, the noble lord said he regretted that it had been
his duty to trespass so long on their lordships' attention in
moving these resolutions. The sum of what he asked was
that they should pledge themselves to give to the petitions
their serious consideration.

Earl GRANVILLE said it was Impossible to have heard
the noble lord without acknowledging the earnestness and
sincerity with which he had advocated the doctrines he
considered so important to the future welfare of the coun-
try ; but this made it all the more imperative on him (Earl
Granville) very briefly and plainly to state that it appeared
to him that it would be impossible either for himself or the
house to consent to the resolutions to which the noble lord
had proposed. The form and language of those resolutions
were somewhat unusual ; but without applying to his noble
friend the chairman of committees to decide questions on
which it would perhaps be painful and embarrassing for
him to give an opinion, he (Earl Granville) must remark
that the substance of these resolutions was such as to make
it impossible for the house to agree to any one of them. They
were four in number, and the house was asked by adopting
them to affirm a fact, and to express a hope or intention.
Their lordships were, however; first called upon to say that
they greatly desired the settlement of the question of parlia-
mentary reform. He (Earl Granville) did greatly desire it,
and he could not doubt that their lordships felt the same
desire. He could not, therefore, attribute the very thin at-
tendance of their lordships that evening to any want of inte-
rest in the matter, but rather to a feeling that this was not
the most practical way of dealing with the question. But it
would be perfectly impossible for them to declare " that this
house is willing to give its earnest consideration to the peti-
tions for universal suffrage and vote by ballot ;" because
adopting a formal re:solution of that sort would be going so
far as to imply their intention of favourably considering
that request. They were next called upon to express a
hepe that they would be able to cut off from the register of
voters all improper persons, which was one of the most diffi-
cult things it could possibly be proposed to them to attempt,
and the noble lord offered no scheme for effecting that object.
The last resolution, which contained the pith of the whole,
declared that the house might grant, in spirit, the prayer
of the petitioners for manhood suffrage and vote by ballot,
not only without detriment, but with advantage to the
country. Now he (Earl Granville) was extremely desirous
of reforming the present representation, and he had been
endeavouring during some weeks to elucidate whatever
evidence could be obtained to show that a considerable ex-
tension of the frartchise might take place without detriment
to the common weal. But when they came to manhood
suffrage he was not prepared to give any countenance to
the adoption of any such proposition. He need not follow
the noble lord through all his philosophical, religious, his-
torical, and almost treasonable reasons for adopting univer-
sal suffrage ; indeed his memory would fail him if he at-
tempted to do so. The noble lord had indeed referred to
precedents, and this was always desirable in discussing con-
stitutional questions. But it secret voting was once re-
sorted to by the House of Commons in the reign of Queen
Anne, it was clear that the system was then tried and con-
demned. The example of the Presbyterians of Northamp-
tonshire could hardly be applicable. With regard to the
suffrage, it was not correct to say that universal suffrage
existed in the reign of Henry VI., for the suffraps was
. then rattined to frechobicrs alone. One Wrtlilreetacit
jections to universal suffrage was that it was likely, as he
believed, in large countries where there was. a powerful
and long-established administration, to tend, more than any
other form of representative government, not to the im-
provement of liberty, but to the destruction of liberty and
the establishment of despotism. (Hear.) And when the
noble lord urged the example of 1818 in France, he (Earl
Granville) must remark that the form of government
which had arisen in France was not suet as we could wish
to see arising in England. Switzerland was, no doubt, a
country from which very sound lessons of liberty might be
learned, but it was very different from our own country in
its size and in its position, and in all its circumstances.
The noble lord said that in Switzerland, as soon as the
father put a rifle into his son's hands to qualify him for the
defence of his country, he became possessed of the
franchise. Yet the noble lord himself proposed, in Eng-
land, to deprive every man in our army and navy of the
franchise, and so the absolute doctrine broke down by the
indefeasible right of every man to vote who had not dis-
graced himself by crime. For these and other reasons he
thought it was not desirable to adopt the resolutions moved
by the noble lord. (Hear, hear.)
The resolutions were then negatived without a division,
and their lordships adjourned.

ties, and its arms consisted of a circle enclosing a number
of smaller circles, oae for each canton. The arms of the
Dutch republic were a bundle of arrows, with the legend
" Concordia res parvo crescunt ; discordia maxims diruun-
tur." The stars and stripes of the United States conveyed
the same lesson; and so careful were the founders of that
republic to preserve the connexion between taxation and
representation, that only twelve of the thirteen states gua-
ranteed ono of their earliest paper transactions, the repre-
sentative of the thirteenth happening to have been absent
when the issue was determined upon. He now came to
universal suffrage as it existed in the church of God. The
judicious Hooker, in his great work on the Laws of EccleL
siastical Polity, said that the natural origin of power to
make laws civil was the commonwealth, and so the natural
origin of laws ecclesiastical was the entire body of the
church; for equals could not impose statutes upon their
equals. Nevertheless, in England, where all men were
equal before the law, the represented took upon themsels es HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(YESTERDAY.)
to impose laws upon the unrepresented, which Hooker said •
they could not do. Archbishop Whitgift, in his answer to ESTIMATING RENTAL.
Mr. P. WATLINGTON asked the President of the
the Admonition in 1572, admitted that in the Apostolic
times, and down even to the times of Cyprian, the people Poor Law Board, whether the Instruction Letter from the
had a voice in the appointment of their ministers, and that Poor Law Commissioners to Parochial Officers, dated the
22d
they sometimes made a right good choice. He (the noble day of June,lB37, had ever been withdrawn, or whether
the practice of considering gross estimated rental as the
lord) thought that •in temporal matters th.e people would
landlord's rent, the landlord and tenant respectively pay-
be still more likely to make suitable appointinents ; and it
ing their own proper charges, prevailed in opposition to the
was certainly a libel to imagine that they wished to
instructions therein contained.
obtain or retain their liberty without putting
Mr. VILLIERS, said that the instruction of the 22d
themselves to any expense. In France, although June had never been withdrawn, but possessed no other au-
revolutions were frequent, there were certain principles
thority than as an expression of opinion on the matter to
on which the people, whenever they obtained their liberty,
which it referred.
invariably insisted. Amongst these universal suffrage
always found a place. Garibaldi, in his address to the SCOTCH AND IRISH REFORM BILLS.
Sicilians, called on them all to arm, and he signed his On the order of the day for resuming the adjourned de-
name, "G. Garibaldi, General of the Romans, appointed bate on the Representation of the People Bill,
by a government elected by universal suffrage." Well Sir JAMES FERGUSSON moved the following, of
done,universal suffrage 1 He would now call their lord- which he had given notice :—" That the order of
ships' attention to what had been the practice in England the day for the ' Representation of the People Bill,
for many years with regard to the suffrage. In the 28th of Adjourned Debate en going into Committee,' be post-
Bdward I. he read that " the King had granted unto his poned until after the orders of the day for the Repre-
sentation of the
people that they should have an election of their sheriff in People (Ireland) Bill (second reading), and
every shire." That involved universal suffrage. Then by Representation of the People (Scotland) Bill (second read-
the 7th of Henry IV. it was enacted that "proclamation ing).'
should be made in every county of the name and place of Sir G. GREY said that he had not heard the motion with
holding a parliament, and that all who might be there which the hon. member for Ayrshire had opened his speech.
should attend to the election of their knights for the par- Now that he had heard it, he was quite at a loss to compre-
hend what relation it had with the two speeches made in
liament, and that in the full county they should proceed to
support of it, or how the adjournment of the debate could
the election freely and indifferently." Though there were
assist the object the hon, gentleman had in view, namely,
limits in the borough at this period, universal suffrage
the earliest possible consideration a the bills for the amend-
prevailed in the counties, in proof of which he might quote
went of the representation of the people for all parts of the
the preamble to a statute of Henry VI., which stated that
United Kingdom. The hon. gentleman had fallen into a
"elections had been made by a great and excessive number
mistake in assuming that as soon as a bill for amending the
of people dwelling within the counties, and who, for the
representation either fur the whole oraportion of the United
most part, were people of small substance, and of no value,
Kingdom, had passed, it would be the bounden duty of the
every one of whom pretended to have a voice equivalent
advisers of the Crown to recommend the Crown to dissolve
to the most worthy knights and esquires ;" and then the
Parliament forthwith, in order that the new constituencies
40s. freehold qualification was enacted. Now, he con-
might exercise their privileges. But the passing of the act
tended that an set of parliament might be void ab initio ;
did not bring those constituencies into existence at once. A
Parliament might exceed its duty, and pass acts which
very considerable interval must elapse before the claims of
were not legal. On this point he would give
persons entitled to registration under the new law could be
authorities, and the first he would quote was an American
taken into consideration, and if this bill were passed before
authority, "Clinton's Digest of Decisions," in which there
the close of the present year, it would be impossible until
was this passage, —" The Legislature is not supreme ; it is
the close of the next year, after the registration had been
only one of the organs of the absolute sovereignty which
completed, that they could exercise their new privilege.
resides in the whole body of the people, and when it steps
Sir J. FERGUSSON said that he did not mean to assert
beyond that boundaryits acts, like those of the most humble
m.that he believed a dissolution must take place, but that the
magistrate who transcends his jurisdiction, are utterly void."
conduct of the Government led him to suppose that such
The LORD CHANCELLOR said he could not allow it to
was their object, and would lead the country to think so
be stated that an act of the Legislature which had received
the Royal assent had not the full force of law. The noble t"'
Sir G. GREY said that the
lord quoted an American authority - which did not apply to
prerogative of dissolution at any time ; but even then the
this country. . Crown might exercise its
w constituencies could not exercise their rights until a
Lord TEYNII AM said he would quote an English autho-
nen
' 1 rable interval of time had elapsed after the passing
rity, and that was Lord Coke, who said, "In many cases considerable
the bill.
the common law will control acts of Parliament, and ad- • . ,
(Hear, hear.) But he was not surprised at the
course which the hon. gentleman (Sir J. Fergusson) had
judge them to be utterly void; as, when an act of Perlis- taken, especially after the debate the other night. There
inent is against common right and reason, the comnionlaw
was a desire now to change the issue proposed by the hon.
shall control it." Now, he asked, if legislation could go be-
t' ' that
tmember for Rye (Mr.
,Mackinnon). (Hear, hear.) Hon.
genlemen, finding the absurdity of supper mg motion
yond its boundaries, was legislation with regard to the frau-
ohise one of those occasions? He must again fall back upon
Amei lean authority. In the seventh article of the oonstitu- —(no, no)—had devised that of the hon. member for Ayr-
shire (Sir J. Fergusson), and dropped that of the ben,
tion of the state of New York it was provided that no one
member for Rye. (No.) He could not persuade himself
should be deprived of his franchise and privileges but in
that any hon. member of that house could seriously enter-
aceordance with common law, and Justice Story said fun- Lain the motion of the hon. member for Rye as one that
damental principles seem to require that the right of pros
would be conclusive. (Oh, oh.) After having affirmed
party should be held sacred, and that the rights of the people
the principle of the bill, after agreeing to the second read-
should not be taken away from them without a strong ex-
ing-s-the principle being that there should be a reduction
Pression of the will of the people. Parliament, however,
in the county franchise and a reduction in the borough
acted without any expression of the will of the people in franchise, for the purpose of admitting a portion of the
taking away their franchise, and he contended that Parlia-
working, classes to the franchise—he could not believe that
raent exceeded its duty in the time of Henry VI., when it
hon. gentlemen could seriously entertain a proposition that
took away the right of the people to vote in counties. He
those rights should be withheld, and their considerationthought the people should setforth in theirpetition that they
gave no fintlority to Parliament to deprive them of their
•postponed for almost an indefinite period, in order to aseer-
., .. .. ~. , • • • • • ,
.' : -

tain with arithmetical precision the number of inhabitants
of a few boroughs contained in the bill, and from which, on
account of their comparative unimportance, it was proposed
to take one of their members and transfer them to more
important parts of the country. (Hear.) The hon. and
learned member for Guildford (Mr. Bovill) made a long and
able speech the other night, which might with more pro-
priety have been made in committee—(hear)—and he be-
lieved he had shown that Guildford would not be dealt with
fairly by the bill. But the hon. and learned gentleman
had taken another course, and had chosen to put Guildford
in the van of obstruction. (Hear) The census, in fact,
had nothing to do with the essential portions of the bill.
The reduction of the borough and county franchise did not
depend in the slightest degree upon the returns of the cen-
sus of '6l. The only portion of the bill to which the census
could in any degree apply was that which related to the re-
distribution of seats, and that was only a small portion of
the bill. He (Sir G. Grey) might ask why the present ob-
jections had not been taken on the second reading of the
bill, and thus the time of the I muse have been saved.
(Hear, hear.) The same objection, I might have been taken
to the bill of the late Government— the only difference being
a difference of one year. (Hear, hem r.) But the hon. mem-
ber for Ayrshire (Sir J. Fergusson) came before them inthe
character of an ardent reformer, wh o was dissatisfied with
the present state of the represent& ion in Scotland. The
hon. member had asserted that in for maer Parliaments it had
been the uniform course to proceed rir•z passu with the bills
for England, Ireland, and Scotland.

Sir J. FERGUSSON—I said exactly the reverse.
Sir G. GREY said hehad understood the hon. gentleman
to say that the Government had de parted from the usual
course.

Sir J. FERGUSSON—What I send was that in 1832 the
course of postponing one bill to another was adopted to the
great disadvantage of the country.
Sir G. GREY said the hon. gentlainan seemed to think it
possible to go into committee one dayon one bill and another
day on another. (Opposition cries of " No, no.") The hon.
member had not been in the last Parliament. If he had he
would not now have complained that the course taken by
her Majesty's Government was unusual. When the right
hon. gentleman the member for Bucks proposed his reform
bill he not, only did not propose a reform bill for Ireland
and Scotland, but he Drnzlnitnti the .eenml ..tuiuut
having given the slightest intimation to the house as to the
principles upon which the Government had decided with
regard to bills for Irelani and Scotland. (Hear, hear.)
The right hon. gentleman went further, for he announced
that it was the intention of the Government, if the second
reading was acceded to, to go into committee before Easter,
and consequently it would have been impossible to have
asked the house that year to give a second reading to the
bills for Ireland and Scotland. With the expe-
rience of late years of the pressure of business on
the Government, he (Sir G. Grey) very much doubted whea
ther the best mode of securing a full and ample considera-
tion to bills of this kind would not be to attempt less in one
session. (Opposition cheers.) If this bill should be post-

poned according to the desire of some hon. members oppo-
site, and taken up again at the beginning of next session,
accompanied by Scotch and Irish bills, there would be much
less chance of a due consideration of the Scotch and Irish

bills than if Parliament had assented to the bill for Eng-

land, and then, guided by that assent, had proceeded to the

consideration of the bills for Scotland and Ireland. He be-

lieved that course would be most conducive to the end pro-
fessed to be entertained by some gentlemen, but of this he
was sure, that if they were to adjourn the coxsideration of
the bill—to what day he really did not know—the effect
would be merely to interpose an obstacle to its further pro•
gress without asking the house to come to any decision
upon that question. He therefore asked the house, if they
really wished the bill not to be delayed for two or three years,
to express an opinion to that effect by a direct and unam-
biguous vote, and not to lend themselves to a motion whose

only object was to defeat a real and salutary amendment of
the representation of the people. (Cheers.)
Lord J. MANNERS rose for the purpose, not of advert-
ing
to the speech of the right hon. baronet, so far as it was
made in reply to that of the hon. member for Lyme, but of
considering the answer it gave to the statesmanlike speech
of the hon. and gallant gentleman the member for Ayrshire.
The right hon. baronet assumed an air of injured innocence
and said the motion of the hon. and gallant gentleman was
merely a device to delay the progress of the bill. The right
hon. baronet must recollect that, so far as that side of the
house was concerned, no amendment proceeding from it had
yet been put from the chair. It was true that two important
amendments had been submitted to the consideration of
the house, one by the chairman of committees, who was
certainly not connected with the party on the Opposition
side of the house ; the other by an hon. gentleman who, in
making it, said it was the pride of his life to be the devoted
follower of the noble lord at the head of the Government.
Yet the right hon. baronet could look across the table and
talk of motions intended for delay and procrastination when
he knew as well as any man in the house that those who
were most anxious to defeat the bill sat on the benches im-
mediately behind him. (Opposition cheers.) But let him
ask under what circumstances it was that his hon. and gal-
lant friend felt compelled to submit the present motion to
the house. The right hon. gentleman told them, as an
earnest and sincere reformer, that he was convinced of the
I impassibility of wowing-the three bills in the present
1--tlessien.--Villen did that truth first dawn on the; mind of the
right hon. gentleman? Why was Parliament summoned a
fortnight or ten days earlier than usual ? And why, when
Parliament met, was it announced from the throne that the
representation of the three countries was to be reformed ?
And why when the English Reform Bill had been intro-
duced were the Scotch and Irish Reform Bills also intro-
duced the same evening ? And why were those bills made
every night to follow the English bill upon the votes ? (Op-
position cheers.) It was clear from the first that it was in
-the mind of the Government to reform the representation
of the three countries in the present session, and whose
fault was it that this session was so far advanced that in
the opinion of the Government it was now impossible to
fulfil that engagement? (Hear.) Was it the fault of the
Opposition? He should like to know when, in the annals
of Parliament, measures of such magnitude had been pro-
posed by the Government and received such a slight dis-
cussion as the financial bills of the Chancellor of the Ex-

chequer ? If fault there were, and fault he admitted there
was, it was not the fault of the House of Commons or of
the Opposition, but of her Majesty's Government, who from
their treatment of the business of the house showed that
they did not regard the reform of the representation of the
people in Parliament as the paramount question of the day.
(Opposition cheers.)
Mr. LONGFIELD hoped the house would adjourn
sine die the consideration of the English Reform
Bill until the whole question of reform could be dealt with.
Mr. INGRAM had heard with regret the statement o
the noble lord the member for the City of London, that he
was ()lien to consider the propriety of extending the fran-
chise from £6 to £7, £B, or £9. He thought any increase
from a would effectually destroy the value of the measure ;
and he would rather see the whole question postponed until
another year than that such a concession should be made.
Mr. WATLINGTON saw no reason why legislation
hould be pressed forward, considering the total absence of
feeling throughout the country in favour of the bill. He
thought the noble lord would act wisely in withdrawing
the bill, and in introducing another measure if he thought
proper at some more fitting opportunity, when the house
could have more accurate information before it.
Mr. ALCOCK said there was no supineness in the
country in reference to the Reform Bill, because there was
a belief that the house would agree to it. But if any
attempt were made to reject the bill, the feeling of the
country would soon be manifested in a most unmistakable

manner.
Mr. C. BRUCE felt that justice to Scotland demanded
that the extension of the franchise should be made to that
country, and this could not be done if they now passed the
English Reform Bill.
Mr. BAXTER said the majority of the Scotch members
in that house were reformers, and no doubt wished most
anxiously for Parliamentary Reform ; but he should be
doing injustice to his own convictions, and he believed
would not be faithfully representing the feelings of the
majority of the people of Scotland, if he did not give his
most decided opposition to the motion of his hon. friend the
member for Ayrshire. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. GEORGE, as an Irish member, considered that the
English and Irish bills should be presented to the house in
a united form. His opinion was that a Reform Bill could
not be passed for England without more or less affecting
Ireland, such were the relations of the two countries.
Mr. PEASE hoped the house would take some action in
this question. He had been for 30 years acquainted with
the working classes, and be was prepared to say from the
knowledge he had of them, that even if this bill were to add
350,000 new electors to the constituency, that inspired him
with no alarm whatever. (Hear, hear.) He believed the
number of the working classes was small who would not
look for representatives amongst the educated and higher
ranks of society. He hoped, therefore, that house would not
endanger its reputation and the confidence which the coun-
try had in it bypostponing the consideration of this question.
Mr. STIRLING said the hon. member for Montrose
accused the Conservative side of the house with an attempt
to obstruct and delay this bill; but he thought that ob-
struction had come as much from the Liberal side of the
house, and rather more so, than from the Conservative side.
So far from any attempt at delay on that side, very few
Scotch menfeers had spoken on the bill. He hoped the hon.
meniter fur Ayrshire would "crivide the house.
The LOI-ID ADVOCATE, after disclaiming any inten-
tion of going into any argument upon the general question
of Reform, said that with regard to the arguments which
had been urged on the other side of the house upon the
motion for going into committee, they would have been
appropriate if the three bills had been incorporated into one.
As it was, however, he was at a loss to understand what
bearing they had on the question. Ho had listened to the
speech of the hon. and gallant gentleman the member for
Ayrshire, with the pleasure which a well connected die-
course usually inspired, and only wished that it had been
devoted to a better and more consistent object. The great
argument he endeavoured to sustain was, that the three
bills should be considered together, but what relation had
such an argument with the question immediately before
then? The object of the amendment which the ad-
to delay legise
journed debate was now c9nsicl--4