The Sun.
London, England, 1860-05-12 00:00:00

LORD J. RUSSELL IN REPLY.

Lord J. RUSSELL—The hon. and learned gentleman op-
posite has already brought, forward the question of these
fortifications on the Island of St. Pierre ; and I am very
sorry that the answer which I then gave him does not ap-
pear to be satisfactory, because I have now little more to do
than to state again what was the substance of that answer.
In 1856—1 think in the month of January —an order was
sent to the Governor of Newfoundland to make inquiries
into the existence of fortifications on the Island of St. Pierre.
In the month of April he made an answer to the 'question
which was put to him; and he stated that there ware forti-
fications commanding the entrance of the harbour—that
there was a battery mounting 8 24-pounders, 2 42-pound
guns commanding .the roadstead, and that there was ano-
ther battery at the entrance of the harbour commanding the
south-eastern passage, in which there were 8 42-pounders.
There was likewise a third battery and a barrack capable of
holding 300 or 400 men. Upon this state of affairs the
whole question was submitted to the law officers of the
crown. It was not a single question as to any particular
fortification, but it was a question whether the state of
things described was conformable to the treaty or at va-
riance with it. The hon, and learned gentleman has stated
very truly that from 1713 to 1814 there were various treaties
which made provisions with regard to fortifications on St.
Pierre; and the question was, whether there ought to be for-
tifications or no fortifications on that island ? The answer of
the law °deers was, that these fortifications did not amount

to an infraction of the various treaties which had been en-
tered into. The hon. and learned gentleman asks me to pro-
duce the question submitted to the law officers, and the an-
swer which they returned to it; but to do so would be
quite against the rule which has always been adopted.
In such cases it is not considered right to produce the
opinion of the law officers of the crown; and believing, as
I do, that that rule is formed upon very good reasons, I
cannot comply with the hon. and learned gentleman's re-
quest. The matter cf the fisheries is quite a different one.
The hon. and learned gentleman said, I daresay very truly,
that there were 30,000 Frenchmen empbyed in these fishe-
ries. It is the practice of the French Government, and I
believe it is also the practice of the Government of the
United States, to give large bounties in order to promote
those fisheries. It is part of their policy to elo so, rather, I
believe, with a view to have a large number of seamen than
with a view to any commercial profits that they might de-
rive from them. It is a totally separate question, and does
not relate to treaties at all. It is a matter of trade policy,
with respect to which it would not be convenient to enter at
the present moment. Of course the hon. and learned gentle-
man can, if he thinks fit, fmd fault with the policy adopted
some few years ago of discontinuing the system of bounties.
The noble lord (Lord Lovaine) asked me a question about
the fisheries convention with regard to Newfoundland. That
is a subject of great importance, and the negotiations upon
it have now lasted for a considerable time ; but I hope they
are approaching their termination. Capt. Dunlop, the com-
missioner sent to Paris to complete them, has returned home.
He has this day seen my noble friend the Secretary of State
for the Colonies, and I am told that the explanation which
he has given is satisfactory to the noble duke. The gallant
captain is about to return to Paris, when he hopes to bring to
a termination this negociation. The opinion of the commis-
sioner has been that it would not be necessary to have any
new treaty, but that the treaty which already exists, with a
proper interpretation and with proper measures taken to

carry it into effect, would be sufficient. I will not, therefore,
enter any further into that matter ; but I trust I shall soon
be able to announce the completion of the negotiations. The
hen, gentleman .opposite (Mr. Griffith) asked me, with re
gard to Faucigny and Chablais, whether we have received
any assurance that no French troops will be moved into
those provinces. I have already stated that the French Go-
vernment refuse to enter into any engagement upon that
point. They have said that they will not send any troops
into the neutralised provinces of Savoy until the vote of the
Sardinian Parliament has completely ceded those posses-
sions of Savoy ; but that after that time they will enter into
no engagement on the subject. The hon. gentleman is so
far right that I conceive any prospect of making a differ-
ence in the arrangements would be very much clouded by
that fact—as well as the prospect of making any proposal
that no French troops should occupy the country. I did
not understand at first what the hon. gentleman proposed
that we should do. I have not, as he states, given any as-
surance to this house which we were not able to fulfil. The
hon. gentleman now says that we ought to withdraw from
all further negotiations upon the subject. That is a matter
certainly of very grave consideration, and I cannot at pre-
sent give any assurance to the house of that nature. The
hon. and learned member for Marylebone asked me a ques-
tion upon a very different subject, with regard to the Re-
form Bill. I thirk he has shown some candour in admit-
ting that the Government have given some ground and ap-
pearance for the charge of insincerity that has been laid
against them ; and I am equally ready to declare that his con-
duct shows considerable appearance that he is not favourable
to this bill of reform. (A laugh.) I admit a degree of candour
in that respect equal to his. But with regard to the period of
the introduction of this bill I must say that the Ist March
was not a very late date upon which to bring in a bill of
this kind. Then the hon. and learned gentleman supposes
that I have postponed this bill to the London Corporation
Reform Bill and other measures. That is quite an erroneous
supposition on his part, owing perhaps to his want of expe-
rience of the proceedings of the house. If I had said that
instead of the Highways Bill, I proposed that the com-
mittee on the Reform Bill should be taken to-night—being
a notice night—the members of this house would, I think,
generally, and with reason, have said, that it was a matter
of far too great importance to be left to the chance of being
taken at nine or ten o'clock on a notice night- —(hear, hear)
—and that it ought to be taken the first thing on some
evening when the orders of the day will permit. But I may
further add, that there have been measures of very great
importance which have teen brought forward in this house
—measures not only of great importance, but of great
urgency, namely, those which the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer has introduced for the financial requirements of
the year. Nothing can be more inconvenient to the country
than to have measures relating to customs and excise post-
poned and protracted for a long period, during which the
business of the country is kept in suspense. Therefore,
there seemed to me to be great reason for not bringing on
the Reform Bill till after these important matters were dis-
posed of. (Hear, hear.) Accordingly, I have fixed the
date of the committee on the 4th of Juno. I have men-
tioned that time on which to bring it on; of course
whether it is to come on on that day or not must depend
very much on what is the pleasure of the house, because
on a notice day we cannot bring on the committee upon the
bill without the consent of hon. members who may be
willing to give it precedence. The hon. and learned
member for Cork asked me whether wo would agree
to introctuce eintlatt3 111 w uiu ...tiNI ua M 02.1 LW* L'lg-
land and Wales which would be applicable to Ireland.
Really I s appose that when my right hon. friend (Mr.
Cardwell) proceeded to defer the second reading of the Re-
form Bill for Ireland, he did not answer this question on
the former evening; but then ho did not understand what
was the course which the hon. and learned member for Cork
recommended. But the hon. and learned member must see
that in such a case it would be necessary to withdraw this
bill and to bring in another. The chairman of committees
would naturally object to introduce provisions applicable to
Ireland into a bill for England and Wales. It is impossible
therefore to propose such clauses as he recommends. Then
we should find that questions with regard to the franchise
having been decided upon this bill, we should have more
discussion on the Irish bill, and thus we should discuss the
same questions over and over. I will only add that those
hon. members who do not seem to be favourable to the bill
have only to take the course which is the direct coarse, and
if they dislike the bill, to vote against it altogether. (Hear,
hear.) What we have done is to bring in a bill, which
we think ourselves, and which many hon. members of the
house think, will be a useful measure. If, however, there
are hon. members who think it a mischievous and dangerous
bill, let them throw it out and take the responsibility on
themselves. But to call it at one time a very small bill,
that there is nothing at all in it, and then at another time
to say it is a dangerous and revolutionary measure, this
is a course which is net very consistent, and not very
useful. I will bring the bill forward at a time when I
hope that many fears will have disappeared, and hon.
members will then be able to say what they think should be
the proper franchise, and what they think should be done.
They will also be able to state what course they think
should be adopted with regard to the redistribution of seats.
The hon. and learned member for Marylebone has proposed
to introduce a lodger franchise. That is a very fair fran-
chise, and I assure him that proposal will be carefully dis-
cussed by the Government with all the reasons that can be
urged for and against the proposal. But whether they will
adopt that franchise or not, I do hope the house will go
seriously into a consideration of the question, and come to
a conclusive decision upon it.

Mr. JAMES wished to explain that he never said he
thought the noble lord insincere ; his opinion was quite the
reverse. What he said was the impression in the country
was that the Government were not sincere.

Mr. SCULLY protested against the term inconsistency
being applied to his conduct.

Lord J. RUSSELL said heby no means intended to refer
to the hon. and learned gentleman.
CAPTAIN GRANT'S APPARATUS.

_ - -
Mr. S. HERBERT said he very much regretted that he
could not give a very satisfactory answer to the gallant
officer opposite (Col. Lindsay), who had drawn the atten-
tion of .the house to the system of cooking proposed by
Capt. Grant. He•should be extremely glad to do anything
which would be agreeable to Capt. Grant ; but he felt bound
to say, upon the question of a disbursement of the national
finances, that it would be difficult, when inventions were
multiplying so rapidly, to give a reward to him and not to
others.

T FIE SICILIAN INSURRECTION.
Mr. GRANT DUFF, in rising, pursuant to notice, to
ask the Solicitor •General whether his attention had been
drawn to an advertisement which appeared in the Times of
the 9th of May, announcing that a subscription had been
opened in London in aid of the Sicilians, and whether per-
sons in this country who contributed to the fund whicli it
was proposed to raise would render themselves liable to any
legal process, said it had been suggested that if he asked
this question he should be asked in return why the recruit-
ing which was going on in Ireland for the Government of
the Pope was not put an end to. He supposed the reason
to be that Government, knowing that other Governments
were getting rid of the refuse of their gaols in that way,
thought they would do the same. But the Sicilian insur-
rection was a very different affair. The Sicilians were
fighting in a good and holy cause, and he did not wish that
that cause should be damaged by any illegality. It was
not a matter that could be treated with contempt. If it were
true that General Garibaldi had sailed for Sicily the matter
assumed a serious aspect. If he bnco got into the island
with reinforcements this would be the commencement of a
very great struggle indeed. The towns on the coast might
be under the power of the Neapolitan Governments so long
as the Neapolitan navy could keep the seas, but much of
the interior was of a character which made it difficult
for regular troo➢s to act ; the towns were built on
rocky eminences, and it would be easy for a handful of
resolute men to defend them against any number of such
troops as the Dina of Naples could bring against them. If
the insurrection wore kept up, the attention of Europe
would be drawn to this subscription. He did not think that
the subscription would amount to such a sum as to be of
any service to the Sicilians, but it might be considerable
enough to attract the attention of Europe. If there were
anything illegal in the subscription, ho thought it wise and
proper that the Government should give warning that it was
so. they should do this for two reasons ; first, because
our position with ngard to Sicily was.a peculiar one. Not
only France and Italy, but the whole of the continent sus-
pected that we haddesipis upot that country; and though

it might be shown that an English occupation would con-
fer a great benefit on the island, yet in five or six years our
rule would be intolerable there; and it was desirable that
To-T nations should be disabused of the notion that we
have any design upon it. Another reason why Govern-
ment should disavow all connivance with an illegal attempt
to assist the Sicilians was, that the true and wise course
for this country, as the upholder-of the constitutional in-
terest of Europe, was to strive that the principle of na-
tional boundaries should be respected, and that every na-
tion should settle its quarrels with its rulers in its own ter-
ritories. If we could only once prevent despotic powers
interfering to put down the people, and make it a rule
that neither a despot should interfere to support despo-
tism, nor a liberal Government to support a liberal Go-
vernment, we might be sure that before long the liberal
party would be able completely to crush their 'oppressors.
If he had made it perfectly clear that his object in putting
the motion was a friendly one—and he wished the revolt
every success, and that it would extend to the main land,
and be successful there to the destruction of the present Go-
vernment of Naples—and if he had made it perfectly clear
that the English Government should do nothing to support
the insurrection, he had said enough, and he Would con-
clude by putting the question.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said he hoped he should
not be considered wanting in respect to the house if he con-
fined himself to a precise answer to the question, and de .
dined to follow the hon. member into the observations in
which he had thought proper to indulge. His attention
had been called to the advertisement by the question itself
which the hon. member had put. He had read the adver-
tisement. It solicited subscriptions in aid of the Sicilians,
and requested that the money, which persons in this coun-
try might be disposed to subscribe, should be paid into the
hands of certain persons living in this county y whose names
were given, and the proposal was that this money should be
transmitted to Genoa, and be there disposed of by a com-
mittee stated to be presided over by General Garibaldi.
-Therefore, the question was whether the subscription of
money by one of her Majesty's subjects in this country, by
paying it into the hands of another person who was a
foreigner living here, for the purposes and with the object
that he had described, came within any rule of common
law or within any statute law of this country. Now, it
appeared to him that so long as that which was done was
limited within the boundary of a mere subscription in this
country as the advertisement limited it, no law of this
country would be violated. The only statute which in any
way bore on the matter was the Foreign Enlistment Act.
That act prohibited two things, it prohibited the enlistment
of soldiers, and it prohibited the fitting out of vessels of war
for service under or against foreign goveramonts. As far
s he was able to form an opinion, no one who thought pro-
per to put his hand in his pocket and take aut money to pay
it to a person to send it to Genoa, to be there disposed of by
General Garibaldi—he did not suppose that any person in
the exercise of such benevolence, would violate either the
common law or the statute law of this country. (Hear.)
INDIA—RECALL OF SIR CHARLES TREVELYAN
Mr. DANBY SEYMOUR said he rose to ask the Secre-
tary of State for India whether it was true that he had
taken the decisive and important step of recalling Sir C.
Trevelyan from the governorship of Madras ? He might be
permitted to address to the house a few observations, show-
ing the importance of this step, as he was perfectly ac-
quainted with the Madras government as it was six or seven
years ago, and he had stated to the house instances of mis-
government, of a most chaotic state of the country, and of
most oppressive taxation amounting to 50 per cent. of the
gross produce of the soil. He had now to show on the other
hand that in that presidency, after a short reign of one
year, by the personal influence of the governor, the popula-
tion was reconciled to the government it before hated,
an equitable assessment had been carried opt, and
contrary to the traditions of the old East India Company,
land for the first time in India had been sold in fee simple
to any person who chose to buy it. It 'was with astonish-
ment that he heard that the man who had done all this had
been recalled. Mr. Wilson had proposed a budget in the
Legislative Council of India. He proposed it openly, stating
the financial diffloulties under which the Government of
India laboured, and his plan for meeting them. He found'
that there was an extremely large deficit, amounting to nine
millions for this year and to six millions for the next, and he
stated that he found it necessary to impose three new taxes ;
ono of these was the tobacco tax, which had already caused
three rebellions ; and the other two were a license tax and an
income tax. The license tax, or maturpha tax, which was
levied in the Madras presidency, was condemned by the
Court of Directors in 1846, and was ordered to be n more
levied ; but now, in 1860, it was still levied in that presi-
dency. He did not quarrel with Mr. Wilson for proposing
these taxes if they were absolutely necessary-. When they
were proposed Sir C. Trevelyan was on a tour of inspec-
tion in -his presidency. 'He immediately stopped the tour,
and returned to Madras, and he penned that able minute,
the publication of which was the cause of his recall. He
thought when hon. members saw this minute they
would say Sir Charles Trevelyan displayed a know-
ledge of the subject and of the country entitling him
to be hoard before the Legislative Council before they put
in execution any of these new schemes of taxation.
He regretted very much to find that when they had a man
of energy and determination as Governor of Madras, a man
..11 th. iajgriouo roarictions by
which his predecessors were bound, and raised the people
in the scale of comfort and happiness, the home government
had thought proper to recal him, because he protested
against a scheme which he believed to be impolitic.
Sir C. WOOD said ho was not prepared by the notice of
a simple question as to whether he had recalled Sir C. Tre-
velyan for a speech on tiubjects of such great importance,
and therefore he should not attempt to follow the hon. gen-
tleman in his remarks. The recal of Sir C. Trevelyan was
caused in no degree by the opinion which he expressed
with regard to the Government scheme of taxation, but
simply by the act of publishing, he must say most impro-
perly and most insubordinately, a most important minute.
No one could have a greater regard than he had for that
gentleman both on public and private grounds; but he
thought that the house would agree with him that the cir-
cumstances of the case were such as fully to justify him in
the course ho adopted. The house would remember that
the Indian financial statement of last year showed a deficit
of about £13,000,000, and that for the present year a deficit
of £9,500,000. With a view of meeting this deficiency the
Government last year proposed a license tax, which was
very soon modified into a quasi income tax, to which was
added a tax on tobacco. They invited the opinions of all
the governors of India, including, of course, the Governor
of Madras, with regard to those taxes. In the course of
the autumn the Governor of Madras expressed his opinion
broadly and distinctly against the imposition of those taxes,
and said that in his judgment no additional taxation was
necessary, because the expenditure might be reduced within
the limits of the income. His hon. friend wanted to know
why the Government did not do what Sir C. Trevelyan said.
There was a wonderful difference between saying and doing.
Before the financial measures of the Government were pre-
pared, it appeared that the military expenditure of Madras,
which had been estimated in the preceding year at less than
£3,000,000, reached, according to a report of the accountant
of the Madras government, a sum considerably exceeding
£4,000,000. Instead of the expenditure having been reduced
it was exceeded by £1,600,000, and those who were respon-
sible for the finances of the country mud be guided by facts'
rather than by statements. With a full knowledge of all
the circumstances, in January last the Government deter-
mined upon the plan which had been announced to this
country, which was introduced on the 18th February, in a
very full and able statement by Mr. Wilson in the Council
at Calcutta.: His hon. friend was mistaken in supposing the
financial 'scheme propounded by Mr. Wilson was arrange('
in this country before Mr. Wilson went out to India; all
that had been determined upon at that time was the intro-
duction of a paper currency, Mr. Wilson did not propose
his financial scheme in India till he had travelled through
the interior of the country as far as the Punjaub, and had
communicated with all the chief authorities, and it was
brought forward with the entire concurrence of the Gover-
nor-General and every member of Council after the fullest
consideration. The scheme was introduced on February
18th, and transmitted to Madras. On March 4th an open
telegram left Madras for Calcutta with the governor's opi-
nion. On the 9th March a confidential letter was sent to
Madras, stating the views and reasons of the governors and
the objections they felt to communicating by open telegram,
On the giound that it was nit right that communications be-
tween one governor and another should be open to the
public. On the 17th of March a letter from the Madras go
vernment was addressed to tho central government at Cal.

cutta, stating that they saw no objection to communications
passing by open telegram. More than that, on the 21st of
March a telegram was sent to Madras stating that the bi 1
would be introduced on the 24th of the same month, that it
would then be referred to a committee, and that it could
not be reported upon for five weeks. He mentioned
these dates to show that at the time Sir C. Trevelyan's mi-
nute was made and published the government of Madras
were in possession of the opinions of the government of
India that it was not to the advantitge of the public service
that the opinions of the subordinate governments should be
given to the world, and also that there was ample time for
remonstrance. On the 26th March the opinions of Sir C.
Trevelyan and his council were recorded in the minutes,
_ _

and his hen friend had read a part of Sir C. Trevelyan's
minute. (" No," from- Mr. D. SEYMOUR.) Well, he had
read apart of the minute of the members of the council,
and he (Sir C. Wood) quite admitted that the minute of
Sir C. Trevelyan was a most able and excellent document.

(Cheers.) It was unquestionably a most forcible argument
against the views contained in Mr Wilson's scheme, and
had it been addressed from one side of the house to the

- -- other, he did not know that a better answer to that scheme

could have been made. (Hear.) But it was quite another
question whether that was a document which ought to be
published to the world. The document was sent to the
Madras member of the Legislative Council at Calcutta,
and if it had been given in the form of a speech from him

in the council it would have been a remarkably good one ;
but it was accompanied with a request that it should be

then printed—that was, if the majority thought it right.
But he did not hold that the Madras member of the

Legislative Council was the mere delegate of the
Madras government ; he was bound to exercise his

judgment on all matters that came before him.

This

being the state of the case, without the knowledge, with-

out the concurrence, and he (Sir C. Wood) was justified
in saying against the opinions of the other members of the
council, the minute was published by Sir C. Trevelyan ;
and to their surprise, the other members of the council saw
his, minute and their minute in the public newspapers of
Madras. It was at first supposed that the document might
have got out of the office by some misconduct ernegligence
of some clerk in the Council-office, and an inquiry was in-
stituted, but it was found that no such misfeasance had
taken place. An application was then made to Sir C. Tref-
velyan's private secretary, who stated at once that they
had been issued by him, and that ho had authority for it ;
and by a minute recorded by Sir C. Trovelyan he, in the
most gallant and hOneurable manner, to use the le; al phrase
avowed and justificdlhe act. Sir C. Trevelyan stated in that
minute, which would be laid before the house with other
papers, " I take the earliest opportunity of stating that, act-
ing on my sole responsibility, I freely distributed copies of
the minute to the members of the Government as to Mr.
Wilson's financial statement, with the view to secure for
them the utmost publicity." The supreme Government of
India were in possession of the view's of the Government of
Madras ; all the great taxes proposed by Mr. Wilson had
formed the subject of correspondence between them and the
supreme Government, and there was ample time for remon-
strance. if Sir C. Trevelyan desired to remonstrate, it was
his duty to address his remonstrance to the central Govern-
ment of India, and with his views he would have been fully
justified in so doing. Indeed it was his duty, holding those
views, to place them before the Government of India for
their consideration. But he went further than that, and he
took a step which he must say, for a man holding such a
position in any country—but especiallyin India—seemed
to him altogether unjustifiable; he appealed to the public of
India against the measures of the Indian Government.
(Hear.) Sir C. Trevelyan said further in his minute, "The
state of public opinion had to be collected in order to bear
upon the Government, and I therefore accepted Mr. Wilson's
challenge to public discussion, and disregarded his subse-
quent instructions." (Hear, hear.) Mr. Wilson thought
it not desirable that the provincial Governments of India
should be committed by public discussion to opposition. He
thoUght it was a seemly position for Mr. Wilson to take, to
obtain the opinion of the provincial governments, but it was
not seemly that Sir C. ,Trevelyan, as' the governor of a su-
bordinate dependency, should invite public discussion in
opposition to the central government, and proclaim himself
the head and leader of that opposition. (Hear, hear.) It was
quite clear that the authority of any government could not
be upheld and maintained if such a system of insubordina-
tion were tolerated. There had been misehief enough aris-
ing from insubordination in India not to allow it to extend
farther. There had been a mutiny lu the away, nativo and
European, and now there was a mutiny of ono governor
against another—(hear)—and her Majesty's Government at
home would have been wanting in their duty if they had de-
layed a moment taking notice of an act so insubordinate and
so dangerous to the maintenance of our rule in India.
(Hear, hear.) They might certainly have reprimanded Sir
C. Trovelyan, but in that case they must have sent a repri-
mand in terms so severe that no man could have remained
under it. But that would have been a shabby course, and he
thought it was more just and more kind to Sir C. Trevelyan
himself that they should take the responsibility on them-
selves of recalling him rather than to place him in a position
in which he would have been driven in a corner, and had
no alternative but to resign. (Hear.) He (Sir C. Wood)
therefore did not hesitate for a moment to take the re-
sponsibility of bringing the subject before his colleagues in
the Government, and by his advice it was determined that
Sir C. Trevelyan should be recalled. In order that the autho-
rity of the supreme Government of India might be supported
and maintained no other course was open. (Hear.) He
thought the recall of Sir C. Trevelyan a great public loss,
but it would have been a greater public danger if a public
servant had been allowed to remain in effice after an act so
subversive of all authority and so dangerous to the main-
tenance of our rule in India—so calculated to promote
opposition, and even insurrection. (Hear, hear.) Those
were the grounds on which the Government were prepared
to justify the recall of Sir C. Trovelyan. He thought it was
their duty to do so, and it was also their duty to allow no
time to pass without providing a successor to Sir C. Tre-
velyan in the governorship of Madras, for the government
of such a presidency was not one in which an interregnum
could be safely permitted. It was true, therefore, that the
last night's mail, which took out the recall .of Sir Charles
Trevelyan, also took out the Commission. appointing Sir
Henry Ward in his place. Sir Henry Ward had adminis-
tered the government of Ceylon with great success, and had
largely improved the revenue, and he did not think they
could have found in the whole Indian or colonial service a
more fit person for the office. (Hear.)
Mr. BRIGHT said the conclusion he had arrived at was
that Sir C. Trevelyan believed the course about to be taken
by the Government of Calcutta was full of danger to the
peace of the country, and absolutely unnecessary to restore
the balance in the finances of the empire. Under this
impression he courageously wrote a minute in opposition
to the views of the central authority at Calcutta. This
was an unusual step, and contrary to the ordinary
duty of subordinates; but he (Mr. Bright) held that
Sir C. Trevelyan had, in his administration of the Go-
vernment of Madras, shown himself much more of a states-
man than those who had announced the new scheme of
finance for India. He was not, however, atout to justify the
indiscretion of Sir C. Trevelyan, nor to blame the
Government for his recal, but he believed that his retire-
ment would be felt as a public calamity by the natives of
the Madras presidency. He, might not have been a judi-
cious subordinate, but he had proved himself to be a wise

governor.
Sir S. NORTHCOTE expressed his regret that the sub-
jut should have been brought forward at a time when no
papers had been furnished, and in the absence of Lord
Stanley, who had appointed Sir Charles Trevelyan.
Lord PALMERSTON said the Government had no
option except to convey their censure of Sir Charles Treve-
lyan.'s conduct by immediately recalling him from his
government. The course'which that gentleman ought to
have adopted, if he found he could not agree in the policy
recommended by the Government of India,' would have
been to communicate with the Governor General, the
Legislative Council, or the Secretary of State. Tho only
explanation which could be offered for his conduct was,
that being honestly and sincerely convinced of the correct-
ness of his views, he had voluntarily sacrificed his official
position to accomplish that which he believed to be for the
public" good. The act of insubordination which he had
committed might have entailed consequences of the most
disastrous character on our rule in India. They had
strongly censured one act of Sir C. Trevelyan's public
conduct, yet Sir Charles Trevelyan had merits too inherent
in his character to be overclouded and overshadowed by
one single act. He (Lord Palmerston) concurred w,th
those who hoped that Sir Charles Trevelyan might in his
future career be useful to the public service, and do honour
to himself as well as be of advantage to his country.
(Hear, hear.)
THE-FORMS OF THE HOUSE.

Mr. BOUVERIE said he rose to call the attention of
the house to the manner in which the business was con-
dUcted. Last night the house, having gone into committee
of was and means, passed a resolution imposing a license
duty upon refreshment houses, and that resolution having
been passed was, contrary to universal practice and prece-
dent, reported forthwith to the house without, as was usual,
a day's delay. The house was aware that immediately a
resolution was thus reported steps were, taken by the Re-
venue Department for levying the duties thereby imposed;
so that by reporting the resolution forthwith no opportu-
nity was aff3rded to the house or to those members who
happened not to be present at the time of the discussion
to re-consider the matter and determine whether it was ex-
pedient that a tax of the kind should be imposed. (Hear,
hear.) It was a matter of very great importance, and the
respect they owed to the forms of the house should compel
them on some future day to take some steps in regard to
the proceedings, and perhaps to declare that the report
in question should be null and void, so that it might ap-
pear on the journals of the house that the course that had
been taken was not to be regarded as a precedent.
Mr. DISRAELI said he considered the point to be one
of the greatest public importance. It was not necessary for
him to dilate upon the importance of theforms of the house,
forms which had been invented by the experience of per-
sons for the welfare of the country—but there might at
times be occasions when those forms might be insisted
upon with too great attention, and be unnecessarily mult

plied. There was, however, one point in respect to which
no difference of opinion could exist. and that was, that when
a question as regarded the imposition of taxes Was under
the consideration of the house, the forms of the house should
be strictly adhered to. In the/ case of committees of ways
and means, there was a decided rule of the house, that the
report upon resolutions passed in such committees should
not be reported in the same day. All would agree that this
was a most prudent course to pursue. He had intended to
bring this matter himself before the house that evening,
but he was prevented from doing so owing to the many in-
teresting matters that came before the house in the course of
the evening. He, however, determined to have done so on
Monday night. He would not at the same time hare been
willing to censure the Government for an intentional de-

parture from the practice of the house on this subject, but to
have suggested such a step as would have prevented the
course now complained of from being drawn into a preee-
dent.

Mr. MASSEY said that if there had been any impro-
priety in the matter he had been primarily responsible for

Mr. CARDWELL said he did not propose what should
be done on a future occasion. The departure from the forms
of the house which had taken place was to be regretted. The
Chancellor of the Exchequer was of that opinion, and
would make a statement on the subject to the house on
Monday next.
_

The SPEAKER said there was no doubt that a resolu-
tion should not be reported to the house the same day it
was agreed to.. There was no doubt that this was the prac-
tice of the house, and that that should have the force of a
rule. He had noticed it at the time on returning to the
house, but no objection being raised, and understanding
that it had met with the general concurrence of the house
he had put the resolution. There, however, could be no
doubt but that the course was irregular and should te cor-
rected._ (Hear, hear.)
_ _

Mr, ESTCOURT hoped that something would be done