The Sun.
London, England, 1856-04-25 00:00:00

power seeking to become a dominant power in the State.
(Hear.) He hoped it would ever remain so, and admitting
the truth of what he had just stated, he thought these ob-
jections completely fell to the ground. He could tell them
further that so long as the House of Commons existed un-
der its present form—an 4 he hoped it would always so ex-
ist—there need be no fear that the civil service could by
any possibility become so strong as to interfere with the
free opinion of the country. (Hear, hear.) Make the civil
service as strong as you like, it can only be made to contri-
bute by that strength to the best servic3 of the State.
Cout Montalembert himself, one of the greatest thinkers
and most eloquent men France ever produced, denounced
the increase of public establishments, it was true, and it
was -an excellent excuse for any Chancellor of the Exche-
quer who might wish it to use as an argument upon the
deficiencies of the civil service of the country, but Mon-
talembert deprecated it as likely to create a host of hun-
gry expectants after place, and whom you could not
satisfy ; but the reply to that was, that it was the sys-
tem by its anomalies that created the expectants. Throw
open your system to competitive examination, and these
hungry place seekers would disappear, to make 'way for
better men. With an open system they could not call
the man a hungry man—a man who had sold himself for
a bribe as a civil servant, who came forward to place his
qualifications in competion with others to serve his country.
Surely that man was not l(a hungry man who came and
asked that capacity should be made the qualification to
reader service to the State. Such a man bade them try
him for his fitness before they employed him. If such a
system was adopted, it would do more for good education
than any possible endowment could do. They would then
have an education of the people at not one quarter what it
would otherwise cost. His right hon. friend (the Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer) bad quoted the Dean of Hereford to
prove that the system which had been established was the
best, but if ho had only gone two pages further, ho would
have found that the Dean of Hereford concludes by allud-
ing to what had been done, taking the accompanying cir-
cumstances into account; but his book went a great deal
further than that, and called loudly for a better system, and
said that the public service was much in want of men of '
ability in its various departments. His right hon. friend
had placed the whole stress of the argument upon the im- ,
portant security of having grave responsibility resting upon
the heads of departments in the appointments which were
made. Now he could say this that he should like strictly to
analyse the mind of his right hon, friend in order to see of
what chemical elements it was composed, so that ho might
see the exact kind of responsibility which his right hon.
friend would consider sufficient, and that could be acted on
with respect to heads of departments. (Laughter.) Take the
case of the appointment of Lord Chancellor, and that they
were to go up fore xamination as to fitness in order to fix
responsibility. Why, he might venture to say that, emi-
nent as those noble lords were, yet if they had to come up
for examination according to the mode in use, one-third
of them would be rejected ; and again, if those fable and
learned lords were to be made responsible for the appoint-
ment of subordinate officers, what would be their condi-
tion night after night in that and the other house ef Par-
liament to be brought forward upon their responsibility
should anything have gone wrong. He remembered some
years ago a saying of Mr. Wakley's, that although Mini-
sters were responsible they never responded. He could
tell them that to try and fix responsibility in this way was
paltry, and beneath their dignity as members of that house.
Ile could understand it if iu the case of tide-waiters and
custom-house officers, such as happened 15 years ago, when
fraud was carried. ou to a largo extent, that those who
knew of or connived at the fraud should be merle respon-
sible, but the cases which had been put forward for this pur-
pose were dehisions, and had been made stalking-horses of,
and could not be so arranged as to afford the public any
greater security than at present. The heads of departments
were responsible to their own consciences, and he thought
that the best kind of responsibility that could be este-
bliehed. His right hon. friend had told them that if they
had open competitive examinations, that a deal of dissatis-
faction would arise between tae vial iges and great towns,
because the villages would have to come up for examina-
tion. Surely, the son of a middle class man or tradesman
could not expect that a commission should issue in or ler to
examine him under the paternal roof, and upon the homely
hearth. -He surely could not desire the commissioners to
go down and catechise him before his father and mother's
eyes. Then, if this was not expected, there could be no
cause of complaint of the nature that had been named. He
begged the house to observe the scope of the motion of his
noble friend, for he thought that the right honourable
baronet had somewhat mistaken it. It was not
that every office should be open to competition, but it was
simply praying her Majesty to make trial of the system,
and that if she deemed it right to do so, that that house
would support her. That showed that it was intended to
proceed step by step, and to make the civil service gradu-
ally perfect itself. What had been done was most satis-
factory as far es it went, and the address only called upon
the house to ask that it might go a little further.. That
part of the system had been tried last year with the con-
sent of the Crown, and all that the house had to do was
to vote the money for its maintenance, and the present
motion would simply ask for a further extension of that
system by permission of the Crown, and. he sincerely hoped.
that the house would support the motion, as the object it
contemplated was so beneficial to the country at large.
Mr. C. LUSHINGTON was not one of those who in
the smallest degree objected to the system.of competitive
examination, for be supported the measure last session.
He quite adanitted that there had been sad deficiincies
to- complain of ; be was for 11 years in the civil service,
and he saw a report drawn up by a member of his own
family (Sir Strafford Northcote), the member for Dud-
ley, and he felt bound to say that the defects were very
much exaggerated, nor could he at all agree with the re-
medies proposed by that comuiission. He sincerely hoped
that the motion would be at once negatived.
Lord GODERICH rose and asked if it was the wish of
the house, as there seemed some little objection to the re-
gularity of the motion, he should withdraw it, and re-in-
troduce it to-morrow in an altered. form, more in conso-
nance with the rules of the house?
The SPEAKER put the question, which being agreed to;
Mr. EWAJIT generally supported the motion, and re.
ferred to- the system having been adopted by the great
railways and public companies as a confirmation of the va-
lue of the principle, and if the Government set them the
example that they would hail it with pleasure, as calcu-
lated to be of the greatest possible advantages to the whole
public service of the country. (Hear.) He hoped the
house would support the noble lord in his motion, for it
was well deserving of the confidence of the house. (Hear.)
Mr. TITE thought the Government had redeemed the
promise given by them when the subject was previously
before the house, and that examination would far the
future be the rule in appointments. It was agreed on all
hands that examinations should take place, and the only
question was, should there be competition, and believing
that a system of competition was the best, he should sup-
port -the motion of the noble lord.
Mr. J. G. PHILLIMORE opposed the motion. He
thought there ought to be an examination. so far as to pre-
vent persons totally unfit from being appointed to public
situations, but it would be the most idle of all pedantries
to suppose that any competition would point out the per-
-1 son most tit for public offices.
Mr. PHILLIPS could not concur in the motion of the
noble lord. .
Lord EBRINGTON considered the present system of
placednunting most demorelisiag as contrasted with the
improved system which the Government had so fairly
adopted. (Hear, bear.) He defied any ono acquainted with
the working of the Government to maintain that the pre-
sent system of patronage afforded any effective security for
the character and moral qualification of the successful can-
didates for public offices.
Lord It. CECIL objected to a change in the system
which was 'already working successfully in excluding all
who were unfit for public offices. He excited the laughter
of the house by reading specimens of the questions put to
candidates on such occasions, such as calling ,on a clerk
competing for 901. a-year to explain the difference between
the Taws of England and Scotland. He protested against
the system proposed; of prostituting the public service, by
making it a premium for proficiency in edtication. ' •
Mr. HIGH protested. nosiest the noble" lord stigmatising
the method of encouragiug education as' prostitution. , He
could conceive no fairer mode of disposing of 'public ap-
pointments. He supported the motion of the noble lord,
as tending greatly to improve the public service. --
Mr. L A BOUGHERE said that as his attention had been
lately called to the subject, he was anxious to trouble the
house with a few remarks. He had, in common with the
heads of other departments, given replies to certain ques-
tions that bad been addressed to them by the commission-
ers; as to supplying vacancies, and he trusted. that in doing
so he had given them without prejudice. After the best
consideration ho had been able to give to the means of
filling up vacaucies in the Colonial-office, he had come to.
the conclusion that it was to the advantage of the service
his selecting on his own responsibility a limited. number
of candidates (having first satisfied himself that they were
young men of gentlemanly habits, to which he attached as
much importance.as he did to other qualities), and then
asking the commissioners to examine them, and select one
whom they considered to be best qualified to fill the va-
cancy in his office. He had •now seven emaii fates-for a
vacancy in the Colonial office, that would be filled up in a
few clays, and he believed he Lad adopted better means
for obtaining an efficient ofncer than if ho had thrown it
open to competition by se'otertisernent in the public papers.
It had been remarked by hon, gentlemen that the respon-
sibility of heads of departments in these appointments
went for nothing, and he was now grieved to find. that the
right hon. gent/semen the member for the University of Ox-
ford, by the nod of his head, assented to that proposition,
because he felt satisfied there had never been a gentleman
connected with heads of departments that did not feel him-
self responsible for the efficiency of those whom he had
appointed. With regard to the vacancy he had filled up,
' the impression certainly was that none • but a competent
Person would be appointed, and he had had no application
from any public or private friend whatever. The candi-
dates to whom hehad referred had been recommended from
Christ Church School, the Charter-house School, Queen's
College, and two from Ireland, their attainments, moral
habits, and gentlemanly feeling having been testified to
by those who had watched over their education, and who
naturally took a warm interest in their future success
in life. Two be (Mr. Labouchere) had put on the list
himself, one was the son of a gentleman who had served
the country well in the Colonial department for a series of
years, whose ambition was that his son should follow his
steps in that public department, but he had no wish that
he should be appointed other than on the system laid down,
and. which he (Mr. Labouchere) had named, the gentleman
remarking that if his son could not compete with others
he ought not to get it. (Hear) The other was the son of
a gentleman whose lifeit a washo
11,11
odttrhhteeh
ishortenedeptrotroli.:vr:dtheslire]. by a residence in
(asheaof the colonies whilst in the service of his country.
,txrhahl3ltrahgeeontmitolinegToafn had a son, who was a very deserving young
roan, and already engaged in one of the public offices,
whore he had given satisfaction, and whose relations desired'
retain its tone a('
house, that the systemaPxppe
and appearance ni't
chore) apprehended
partments to try the system
ment, and as the wheel oefTo
and the succession of pint in the list of competitors. (Hear.)
the noble lord was, no doubt, very mode-
raer:nercle,abwutisihn, that moderate tone
:i
01 f
:fill
hooat
aiorhdi
Inieo(
cpal3,l;itsteeroacd.t :
rapidly,
1 at:bi
is y:oe:
bf,i
ninotdl
oyhouo
t,e,.. .
to another, was also
so rapid, that he shoull,ulbnloiet tarbelolonsne
very distant clay there would be many
trying it in their respective depprensrst
laughter.) This motion, if it ex fo-und desirous of
expressed. lainty4.thin(ll,9e3XrPraesnsd•
font a preference for this system of examinationg-
hoped the house would pause before it committed itself
such an expression of opinion. It would not do for theo
house to deal fast and loose with this question ; and, nue
'less the house made up its mind that this system ehoulct
be gradually and universally adopted in the service, it
ought not to agree to an address to the Crown in the terms
proposed by the noble lord. ire (Mr. Labouchere) was
inclined to believe that in the higher departments of the
Government, the Colonial, Foreign, &c., departments,.
that competitive examination of a limited number of
but
was the best • system that could bo adopted,
sut that it was not so in those departments where a lower
qualificationould
n o,
agree wars p
required. He ho ed the house
w
which had not to tiro inCtion but affirm a system
bOO4 brought full; into, Pl9,Yi, riot hay.
. - • fx,!,:t.--.,,,,

ing been in existence for twelve months. There wa
no special requirements that made it necessary that it
should be at once enforced on the Government, but that
on the contrary time should be given to allow the system
to develope itself and prove its advantages over others.
Viscount GODERICH replied.
The house then divided, when the numbers were--
For Lord Goderich's motion
Against it B7
Majority --21
(Loud cheers.)'''
GRAND JURIES (IRELAND) BILL.
Sir D. NORREYS obtained leave to bring in a bill to
relieve grand juries from fiscal duties, and to place the ad-
ministration of local affairs in Ireland in elected councils.
ARMY SCIENTIFIC CORPS.
Captain L. VERNON called the attention of the War
Department to the prospective promotion and the estab-
lishment of the Scientific Corps, with a view to maintain-
ing heir efficiency in peace, for the purpose of war. He
said that at first sight this appeared but an ordinary
question, but he thought he should be able to show the
house that it was more of a national than a departmental
one. The Duke of Wellington established the corps of
Sappers and Miners in 18J8, and had he possessed them
earlier he would not have been defeated at Burgos. After
the war, peace—brought that stagnation that in a short
time the efficiency of this corps was reduced, and at the
breaking out of the past war they found it at so low an ebb
that it was, unable to carry on the siege of Sebastopol
without the 'assistance of the AVM Brigade, which was
increasing one department at the expense of another. Had
this corps been kept up. an efficient manner during the
time of peace, it would have cost the country less money
than had been • expended in carrying on the late war,
in consequence. of its inefficiency. Had the - Sappers
and Miners been kept up, the redoubts would have stood
the Russian fire. much better than those constructed by
the Turks, and. 'they would not have had that military
massacre which took pled° at Balaklaara, of the cost
of which the country was not aware. It appeared a
base and sordid view of the question to put a money value
upon human life, but there .was no alternative _n estima-
ting the cost to the country. Every infantry soldier, be-
fore he pulled a trigger in the field, was estimated to cost
the country 1031., every cavalry man 2101., and his horse,
according to a caculation in the public newspapers, 2001 ,
but which he-tosak at 100 ~ The disastrous charge put
hors de combat at Balakllva. 422 men and horses, which at
4001. each amounted in round numbers to 160,0001. The
Sappers and Miners could have made the road to Bala-
klava, and that great blunder need never to have been
committed, the formation of the Army Works Corps, at a
cost of 480,5951., neither would they have required the con-
struction of the railroad, at a cost of 400,0001.,. or near
70,h001. per mile. Had there been Sappers and Miners in
sufficient force the troops could have been housed and the
horses sheltered, and Inkerman defended, and all those
disasters from before which regiments melted away would
not have occurred, especially the 63d, the men of which
melted away in a week, at a cost of 100,0001. to the
country. The gallant gentleman then referred to the sys-
tem of promotion with regard to the military branches of
the Ordnance that had been turned over to the Horse
Guards. There were 14 generals mentioned in that book,
and they were all purchased men, awl they were pitted
against - the marshals of France, who had risen from the
ranks, and they beat them all. They beat them back from
the lines of Lisbon to the very gates of Paris. That was
purchased men against men wo had risen from the ranks.
Practically, the system in France did not work well ; for
recently a French officer, in coming home from the Crimea
in the Fame transport as some English officers, said that
no man could get on in France unless he had interest in
the bureau of the War Department. Such was the system
in France, which, indeed he believed was the cause of
the lees of many of the best men in the French army, as
any one could see who observed the class of discharged
soldiers who were constantly lounging about the este-
minets of Paris. Now with regard to the engineers,
of which he was an officer. He had served for
five and twenty years in the lo.vest grades of that corps be-
fere be obtaiuel his promotion, with a pay something less
than that of the driver of a Paddingteu omnibus. Was
that the state to which they would reduce the whole army?
He thought the fortified places ought to be held by artil-
lery battalions. He believed that if the course which he
had sketched out had been followed, thousands of lives and
millions of money would have been saved.
The SPEAKER asked if the hon. and gallant member
intended to make aoy motion ?
Lord PALMERSTON.— The hon. member has executed
his notice. We perfectly agree with him in the import-
ance of the subject, and it shall receive the best attention.
The subject thee dropped.
PUBLIC MONEYS.
Sir F. BARING, in moving for a Select Committee to
inquire into the receipt, issue,- and audit of public moneys
in the Exchequer., the Pay-office, and the Audit Depart-
ment, said he did not desire anything in the shape of a fi-
nance committee, or to inquire into the detailed mode of
keeping books, but to examine the general accountability
of public departments. This accountability ought, he said,
to secure a cheque that the money voted by Parliament
was not only spent, but spent for the particular service
for which the money was voted. He then proceeded to show
by details which do not admit of being condensed or ana-
lysed, that there were points which required investigation
in the public accounts kept in the departments in question,
and that large portions of those accounts had been with-
drawn from the Audit Board without the sanction of Pars
Earn en*.
Mr. GLADSTONE said no person could have listened
to the speech of Sir F. Baring without being convinced
;that it contained matters fit for further inquiry. The
whole subject of the receipt anti audit of the public ac-
counts, including questions not open by Sir Francis,
ought to be inquired into in a comprehensive manner.
Thoroughly concurring with him, therefore in the object
he had in view, lek+eutured-to suggest to him and to the
Government that the proper course, considering the com-
plicated nature of the subject, would be to follow previous
examples, and address her Majesty to appoint a commis-
sion.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER gave expla-
nations in reply to Sir F. Baring, justifying the transfer of
the accounts from the Audit Board, which had been con-
sequent on the consolidation of the War Departments. He
believed that the audit of our public accounts was never
in a more satisfactory state than at present. With regard
to the motion, if the house thought it desirable that at that
period of the session, and without any special ground being
shown, a committee, was capable of dealing with so intri-
cate a question, he Amuld, he said, offer no opposition to
it ; but lie agreed' with Mr. Gladstone that the inquiry
would be much more effectually conducted by a small corn-
Mr. BOWYER could not concur with the argument of
the right hon. gentleman, who said that there was nothing
special iu the' present time to call for inquiry into the pub•
lie service. He should support the motion as modified by
'thseright hon. gentleman the member for the University
'of 'Oxford.
After a few words from Mr. Williams, Mr. Ellice, Sir
8,1 M. Hetile.a
Lord PAL iIERSfON said that the subject was one of
considerable in, ment, more especially ie a time of war,
for no one could say but that the accounts of the country
ehould be properly audited. That was at least his impree-
,ion and he believed that the inquiry, if properly con-
du ted, would result in showing that practically the public
.expeettiture is antileas been satisfactorily accounted for.
He might add that the impression in his own mind was
thet, from certain circumstances which had been stated, it
was desirable that an inquiry should take place, and the
only thing to consider was, what was the best way of carry-
ing out such an inquiry ? The impression of his friend the
Member for the University of Oxford was, that a commit-
tee would be the best; hut lie
,(Lord Palmerston) believed
that a committee would not answer the desired purpose.
However, ho should net oppose the appointment of a corn-
tnittee, and, if that was' not satisfactory a commission
Could be appointed afterwards. In cases of this kind seine
attention must be had to public impression.
Sir F. BARING agreed with the noble lord at the head
of her Majesty's Government, and hoped that no objection
world be raised to the committee, for it was desirable that
the public should be satis4ed that the public money was
properly expended.:
The committee Wits then agreed to.
Mr. KENDALL obtained leaVe it& bring in a bill to
amend the laws relating to the assessment of mines to
the relief of the poor.
EXHIBITION OF FIREWORKS (DUBLIN AND
EDINBURGH).
Mr. GROGAN moved that an humble address be. prey
lented to her__Majeaty, praying that, as an exhibition or
fireworks has been ordered for the amusement and gra.tifi-
cation of the inhabitants of this metropolis, she will he gra-
ciously pleased to direct that similar exhibitions of fire-
works be made for the amusement and gratification of the
inhabitants of Dalin and Edinburgh.
Mr. BLACK seconded the ;notion.
Mr. HORSMAN said the suggestion which had been
made would be acted upon.
Lord PALM ERSToN said the Government did not in-
tend to make any objection to the motion. It was quite
right that the three great Cities of the empire should have
the opportunity or sharing in the rejoicings in which the
whole country wduld share when they knew the terms of
peace.

After a short cOnTersation the motion was agreed to.
JURIES (IRELAND) BILL.
The second reading of this bill was deferred till Thursday
next.
The committee on the Joint• Stock Banks was postponed
till Monday.
The Drafts on Bankers' Bill was read a third time and
passed.
The house adjourned at twenty minutes past 1 o'clock.

LLOYD'S SHIPPING.—(This Day.)

LONDON, April 25.—Wind this day at noon, E. ;
light breeze and fine.
PLYMOUTH, April 24.—Wind E.S.E.—Arrived—Cor-
nucopia, from Buenos Ayres. Sailed—Gambia (s.), for
the west coast of Africa.
FALMOUTH, April 23.—Wind S.W., fresh.—Arrived
Lebanon, from Mauritius ; Cathcart, Sierra Leone. Off
the port—Flora MTonald, from Colombo.
SUNDERLAND, April 24.—Wind E.S.E.—Sailed—Birch-
grove, for Madras. •
NEWPORT, April 24.-9.rrived—W. S. Lindsay, from
Havre, for New York ; Cito, Antwerp, for St. Thomas.
LIVERPOOL, April 24.—The Princess Marie, of Irvine,
is supposed to hive been towed into Toberinory harbour
op the lith itnt&
LOWESTOFT, April 24—The Jeffery, of Padstow, is on
Corton Sand.
MARYPORT.—Sailed—Gertrude, for Quebec.

(PER ELECTRIC TELEGRAPH,I
SOUTHAMPTON, Friday Morning.
Arrived—Siit Brothers, Othello, Eliza, Emma, Kite,
Certrnde,tlierub,. and Azoff, from Cardiff ; Mauney and
Titania, Sun'tterlind ; Jessie, Newport ; Johnny soy,
Swansea ; La Poule, Cherbourg ; George, Plymouth.
Sailed—George, for Cardiff ; Rlsot ta, Sunderland.
LIVERPOOL, Friday (ruing.
Wind S.E.
Sailed—Edwards, for Newfoundland; Celina, Havre ;
Hy. Metcalf, Corfu:;' Dunionald, Genoa.
• QUEENSTOWN, April 23.
Wine. E. •

Arrived—Dunsandle, from Callao ; Varna, Syria Liffey,
Barbados ; Ocean Traveller, Baltimore,
Sailed— Jassy, Barbados,

(BY 811BHARINE ANY) BRITISH TELE(IRAPIT.)
GRAVESEND, Friday, 9.50 a.m.
Wind E.; tide, 6 hours' ebb; tine.
Arrived, April 21—Isabella Teek, from Algoa Bay.
S
, April 25—Rover, from Guernsey.
ailed—Mary Agnes Duff, for Singap,re.
Wind calm. DEAL, Friday, 9.32 a.m.
Pasieil—Vesta, (s.s), from Oporto, for London; sophia,
Londati 'Leghorn - Osprey, London, Messina.
AnekOred7ACl.lllle, from Colombo, for London.