The Sun.
London, England, 1860-07-24 00:00:00

France which existed at the beginning of the session. (Oh,
oh 1) Sir, Ido not think the house ought to legislate on a
sudden. (Hear.) I expressly guard myself from saying that
I do not approve parts of the noble lord's plan. At the
same time I can conceive nothing more detrimental to the
character and the weight of this house than to legislate
under the pressure of a sudden panic—(Opposition cries of
" Oh I")—which I conceive we should Le doing if we at once
rushed to a vote on this question. How stands the case ?
My hon. friend (Mr. Bright), with whose general views on
this subject I do not agree, has said that during the time he
has been in Parliament he has never known such a course
taken. I challenge any hon. gentleman to say whether,
since this was a House of Commons, any Minister of the
Crown ever came forward suddenly with a resolution which
had not been upon the table before, and asked for an imme-
diate vote upon that resolution. (Hear.) Ido hope, from
a few observations which fell from the right hon. gentleman
(Mr. S. Herbert) at the conclusion of his speech, that the
Government do not intend to press us for a vote to-night.
He said he was sure that the more the house reflected on
this statement, the more wise and politiethey would consider
the proposed plan to be. If that be so, why should not the
right hon. gentleman postpone the vote and give us some
little breathing time ? I don't say that I shall not sup-
port the right hon. gentleman. All I ask is that we may
not expose ourselves somewhat to the sneers of foreign
nations as well as to the distrust of our own constituents,
by immediately rushing to an impetuous vote. (Opposi-
tion cries of "Oh ?") What is it we are about to
do ? It is true that to-night we are only asked to
spend 112,000,000 ; but does not every one feel that this is
only the beginning of an enormous addition to our expen-
diture ? (Hear, hear.) The noble lord has very well laid
down his plans, but has altogether kept out of sight the
troops for which we shall be asked. (Hear, hear.) I be-
lieve Cannock Chase, also, is not included. (Yesl) Well,
I will throw Cannock Chase in; but I say we shall not be
consulting our own dignity as a deliberative assembly if to-
night we agree to a resolution which we have never seen or
heard of before. It seems now that the blue-book was known
to the Government on the 7th of February. Since then we
have had a budget brought forward, in which most mate-
rial financial changes were introduced, the Ministry know-
ing at that time that this call of £7,000,000 would be made.
(Hear, hear.) They were perfectly aware of all this, yet
on the 23d of July the house is called upon, for the first
time, not indeed to take their proposals into consideration,
but to give without notice an immediate vote ; and we have
hon. gentlemen getting up under the influence of a panic.
:Opposition cries of " No,") The delay of this resolution

for three or four days cannot be of the slightest possible
moment. The fortifications are to occupy four years, and
I think it will not be becoming the House of Commons to
decide so hastily. Ido not wish to be placed in a position
hostile to the Government on this question. On the con-
trary, I hope to be able to give them my support ; my only
object is to press for the postponement of the resolution.
I wi I only add one word with regard to the publication of
the report of the Commissioners. The War Secretary
has said that in a constitutional Government you are
obliged to make these matters public. To that doctrine I
cannot assent. I believe in all warlike operations that the
one essential thing is secrecy. (Hear.) If we are to pub-
, lish our weak points to all the world, we invite all the
world to attack us. (Hear, hear.) When the Duke of
Wellington formed the lines of Torres Vedras, an operation
which occupied more than 10 months, Massena was not a
bit aware of them, nor was their existence known to any
persons in the English army, except the members of the
confidential Staff. That is a sufficient answer to those who
defend the publication of the blue-book. Those lines at
Torres Vedras saved the liberties of the world, because if
Spain and Portugal had fallen at that time, the whole world
would have been in the grasp of the first Napoleon. (Hear.)
I look upon the publication of this report as most mischie-
vous. (Hear.) However, that is done and cannot be un-
done ; but with regard to the resolution, I do hope the no-
ble lord vr ill not to-night call upon us to vote upon it. (Hear.)
Lord PALMERSTON—I think the argument of my
hon. friend is rather at variance with the course which he
suggests. He finds fault with the Government for having
given in too much detail the reasons why they propose the
vote, and at the same time he objects to the vote being
taken to-night because, he says, the committee have not
had sufficient time to examine into those details. Now, if
there was any force in the argument of my hon. friend, he
ought to be prepared to vote the money on terms of general
confidence in the Government, upon our declararation that
we think such a sum is necessary for the defence of the
country, and without calling upon us to say why we think
it necessary. (Hear, hear.) I therefore claim the vote of
my hon. friend on his own argument. (A laugh.) It is
really not fair to say that we are calling upon the House of
Commons to act on a sudden panic. This report has been
for some time before the house. It gives all the details,
and those who have read it are just as wise as they will be
this day week. (A laugh.) Then, again, my hen, friend
says that after my statement this evening it is hopeless to
expect the continuance of any friendly relations with
France. Why, the only foundation for friendship between
equals is perfect frankness —(hear, hear)—and, so far from
the fair statement of what we intend to do for our own de-
fence being the ground for bad relations between us and
France, I say that not only the statement made to-night,
but the works which are to follow that statement, are
the only foundation for real and substantial friendship
with France. (Hear.) lam quite sure that if we press
this question to a disision it will be carried by a large
majority—(Opposition cheers)—but I am far from wishing
to call upon hon. members for a decision which they are not
immediately prepared to come to. I concur entirely with
my right hon. friend in thinking that the more the house
reflects en the matter, the more completely they will come
round to our proposal, and that they will be more ready to
assent to it this day week than they are now. lam pre-
pared, therefore, to yield to the request which has been
made, and to move, sir, that you report progress now, and
that the debate he resumed this day week. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. NEWDEGATE rejoiced that the Government had
at last determined to act on the recommendations of the
commissioners.
Mr. DISRAELI—I do not intend to trouble the com-
mittee upon the particular question before us. I will only
say that as to the mode in which this money is to be raised
I confess I have great doubts of the wisdom of the plan, and
I should like to have heard the opinion of the Chancellor of
the Exchequer up'on that point. (Hear, hear.) But what
I want to ask is, now that this change has taken place in
the business, can the noble lord fix a day when the new
Paper Duty will be taken ?
Sir G. LEWIS—The Chancellor of the Exchequer is
not here, and therefore I can't say when the Paper Duty
will come on. The Indian Army Amalgamation Bill is
fixed for Thursday, and Friday is a private night. I must
make one or two remarks upon the mode in which it is
proposed to raise this money. In the first place, although
my noble friend stated that the plan contemplated ultimately
an expenditure not exceeding £9,000,000, all we pledged
the house in this year is to consent to raise £2,000,000 on
terminable annuities. There is no doubt an equal sum
might be borrowed on Consols at a somewhat less annual
charge. (Hear, hear.) Terminable annuities tire not the
most saleable stock. (Hear, hear.) In general, assurance
companies alone deal extensively in them, and the public
will not take them except at a higher rate, although net a
considerably higherirate than Consols. 'gut let the com-
mittee consider the alternative. If we had proposed
to raise this money by creating an amount of 3 per cent.
Consols or Exchequer Bends or bills, it is certain that it
would form an addition to the permanent debt of the country,
and that the public would not consent to raise the funds for
extinguishing that debt in the present generation. The
committee will remember that an attempt was made during
the last war to compel the extinction of a certain debt in
Consols, but that act had not been in existence three years
when the right hon. gentleman opposite, the then Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer—l do not say without necessity—
came down and proposed the repeal of that act. Even this
year it is proposed to renew a debt of a million in Exchequer
Bonds, and there is no reasonable prospect, unless you com-
pel this house by the terms of the contract to repay a por-
t:on of the principal periodically, that the money will ever
be repaid. The advantage of terminable annuities is this—
although it costs you something more when you borrow in
that form, yet the excess of charge is not considerable yen
make it necessary that a portion of the principal should be
repaid every year, together with the interest. The essence
of terminable annuities is that on the repayment principal
and interest are confounded. That mode of compelling the
public to repay the principal of the debt seems to me to be
well suited to the present occasion, when we are departing
from the ordinary course of defraying the current service of
the year by contracting a loan. Although I admit that
terminable annuities are not the most economical mode of
contracting a loan, yet that plan seems to me to have an
advantage in compelling the Government which contracts
the loan to specify in the contract, which cannot be broken
without a violation of national faith, that a certain portion
of the principal shall be repaid each year, and I should be
glad to see a considerable portion of our national debt con-
verted into terminable annuities.
Mr. DISRAELI—I am sorry again to trouble the com-
mittee on the same subject, but it appears to me that, at this
period of the session, the house has a right to expect some-
thing more definite than the statement we have already
heard of when the paper duty will come on. Can the noble
lord tell us when will bo the next supply night, and will the
paper duty be taken then ?
Lord PALMERSTON—I cannot state with certainty
now. I will state to-morrow.
Mr. BRIGHT—I wish to ask when the right hon.
baronet the Secretary for India intends to make his state-
ment respecting the finances of India. I understand there
is a deficit of £7,000,000, and therefore it is probable that a
loan will have to be contracted. That is a question which
should not be deferred until the last day of the session.
Lord PALMERSTON—In the absence of my right hon.
friend I cannot give an answer, but the day when my right
hon. friend will bring on his Indian budget must depend
upon the other business. I will state to-morrow
what will
be done.
r,
Mr. RICARDO wished to guard himself against bet
•
supposed to concur in the observations of the Home Se, re -
lie considered that raising
money by such means was an extravagant and wasteful
proceeding. (Hear.)
Mr. CONINGHAM had no faith in bricks and mortar
as national defences. We had experience in the Channel
Islands, where extensive works had been executed on the
recommendation of the Duke of Wellington, but the late
Mr. Stephenson, the engineer, who visited those works, de-
clared that every shilling that had been spent upon them
had been thrown away. (Hear.) It would be better to
banner.
give facilities and encouragement to working men to enlist
under what he might call the national
He Understood the
be required, while the '
Sir S. NORTHCOTE wished to have an explanation of
a discrepancy between the statements of the noble lord and
raeyt a rk,
oaos
clopt4?cuol sdt .
right hon. gentleman said_ £5!000,000.
Sir G. C. LEWIS had said that the work
nthoebleHloomrde Secretary
s commenced
this year would, when finished, cost £5,000,000.
Sir S NORTHCO FE asked whether thevote
for forti-
fications in the estimates was to be proceeed
how the half-million which the noblee with ? Also
lord mfntioned as
the sum to be paid on terminable annuities was to be
Sir Q. Q. LEWIS said the, amount for fortification, in