The Sun.
London, England, 1860-07-12 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(YESTERDAY.)
The SPEAKER took the chair shortly after 12 o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.

On the motion of Mr. C. FonsTmt, the following was
agreed to :—" That Standing Order No. 203 be suspended,
in the case of the Athenry and Ennis Junction Railway
Bill, and that the bill be read a second time to-morrow."
THE CENSUS BILL.

The early part of the morning was occupied in the pre•
mutation of petitions against the religi‘ms profession clause
in the Census Bill, from different ruts of the metropolis
and the country generally, and signed by several thousands.
A few petitions in favour of the retention of the clause were
presented, and elicited some ironical cheers.
CHINA.

Sir J. PAKINGTON moved for statements showing
the total amount of grants made by estimates submitted to
Parliament in the present session to meet the expenses o f
hostilities in China, including the estimate lately presented
to the house; the additions (as nearly as the same can be
calculated) made to the Army and Navy Estimates of the
current year, on account of the contemplated operations ;
votes to cover the deficiencies in the estimates
of last year, arising from the expense of pre-
paring for these operations ; and, votes of credit,
showing, up to latest date to which the same can be given,
the amounts expended under fallowing heads :—l, pay and
allowances of troops sent to China; 2, cost of transport of
troops to China; 3, cost and freight of naval and military
stores sent to China, including coals ; 4, other charges ;
and showing dates of various orders given for sending
troops and stores to China.
The return was ordered.
NATIONAL DEFENCES.
Mr. MACKINNON gave notice that Oh the bringing up
of the report of the National Defence Commission, he would
move " That, in the opinion of this house, the existing
naval and military force was sufficient for the defence of the
country."

THE CENSUS BILL.
On the motion of Sir G. C. LEWIS, the house went into
committee on this bill.
Clauses 1,2, and 3 were agreed to.
On clause 4,
Mr. BAINES said it was a very general opinion that
the demand made by this clause for a declaration of religion
was most objectionable. On no occasion did the feelings
of members on the Ministerial side of the house coincide
more closely with their constituents than on this question.
This declaration of religious opinion was quite novel in re-
ference to the census. On one occasion an inquiry of this
kind was made in Ireland, but the result was not such as to
induce the Government to repeat it in the Irish Census
Bill for this year. An inquiry into religious opinions was
objectionable both on the ground of principle and feeling.
He had heard very strong objections on the part of the
members of that house who belonged to the State Establish-
ment—indeed these were more numerous than amongst the
Dissenting members. Having adverted to the report of
Mr. Horace Mann in reference to the question of inquiry
into religious opinion, in which it was stated that no less
than 5,200,000 persons who were in a position to attend
divine worship were not present in any church or chapel
throughout the kingdom on the Census Sunday; he said it
was evident that there was a large number of persons who
had no religion. On this ground the bill was objectionable ;
also becauseit was not just to call on any person to declare his
own religion. Besides, the inquiry would no doubt elicit
very painful and outrageous protests on the part of several
persons, which no hon. member would wish to see placed
on the records of the census. This clause would give an
undue authority to the enumerators, who would have to
fill up returns in many cases, and might be influenced by
a strong religious bias. It had been advanced in support
of the clause that the inquiry into religious profession
existed in countries on the Continent, but there was
no analogy between these and England. The former
were under despotic forms of government, and derived
grants from the State, so that they were necessarily subject
to Government surveillance and control. He contended

that no reliance could be placed on the returns, and con-
cluded by moving the omission from the 4th clause of the
words " religious profession."

Sir G. LEWIS said, as he was answerable for this bill,
and as it excited considerable interest throughout the
country, he hoped the house would afford him an opportu-
nity of making explanations in reference to the views he
entertained. In his opinion the presumption must be con-
sidered to be in favour of including religion amongst the
subjects comprehended in a census. It was true that it
had not been the practice in this country to require
any declaration of religious profession ; but in every
civilised community, wherever difference of religion
prevailed, such declarations were comprised in the census.
The report of the Statistical Congress recently held at
Brussels was in favour of this declaration of religion as
being material to the composition of a proper census. A
religious census prevailed in Austria, Bavaria, Belgium,
Denmark, France, Prussia, Saxony, Sweden, and Wurtem-
burg, but it was not practised in Holland and Spain. The
right hon. baronet then cited extracts from different autho-
ritative documents on the subject in support of a religious
census. They had the example of a religious census in
Ireland, and though it was taken by Royal commission
it was quite as valuable for information as if it re-
sulted from an Act of Parliament. That census
was made in 1834, and it appeared that so far from there
being any disinclination to give information, every assist-
ance was rendered the commission by the clergymen of
the Established Church, the Roman Catholic clergy, and
the different sects of Protestant dissenters. On the whole
there was presented to her Majesty a census which as re-
garded religious opinion very closely approximated to
truth, and the subject was one with respect to which per-
fect accuracy could not be expected. The result of that
eensus showed that there were in Ireland, in the
year in question 6,427,000 Roman Catholics,
852,000 members of the Established Church, 642,000
Presbyterians, and 21,000 of different Protestant dissenters,
and the religious opinions of 18,951 could not be ascertained,
owing, chiefly, to change of residence. That showed that
one of tho grand difficulties against a religious census
was the acquisition of correct information. In framing the
bill he had to consider the plan adopted in 1851, or that
which he now proposed, and after mature consideration he
felt bound to give preference to the latter. (Hear, hear.)
In the first place, with regard to the former, Mr. Horace
Mann went into matter foreign to the subject. For in-
stance, he commenced by a historical description of the
Jews—(laughter)—then a history of the Church of Eng-
land, of Swedenborgians, and other sects, and they con-
tained the 39 articles, which he thought rather unne-
cessary to lay on the table of that house. (Laughter.)
The number of persons attending a place of worship on
a certain Sunday was a very fallacious mode
of arriving at a knowledge of the religious opinions.
In bringing forward this measure there was no desire on
his part to give any advantage to the members of the Church
of England. What he desired was merely to ascertain the
truth, and the plan he proposed was adopted merely be-
cause he thought it was the best calculated to effect that
object. The clause had the approval of a large number,
including the heads of the Established Church, and he was
not aware that the Catholics entertained any objections to
the bill, and though that body in this country was not
large, they made themselves heard. (Laughter.) He was
ready to admit, however, that the Dissenters in this coun-
try were opposed to the 4th clause, and those in Scotland
were also hostile to the measure. (Hear.) In Ireland it was
understood that the religious declaration would be required
by both the members of the Established Church and
Roman Catholics, but they offered no opposition to the Irish
Census Bill. He had received a letter from the Registrar-Ge-
neral stating his apprehension that, with the opposition.to-
wards the 4th clause, there would be no chance of acquiring
correct information for the religious census. Ile had no idea
that he would have had to encounter such opposition to the
bill, and he gave the Dissenters credit for sincerity in their
opposition.
He believed that this opposition was based on
feeling and sentiment, and not on sound argument; how-
ever, under the circumstaices, he felt bound to withdraw
the words in question. (Cheers.)
Mr. B. OSBORNE contended that there was no analogy
between France and Prussia and this country, for in the
former the Government subsidised the different sects, while
the Dissenters in this country repudiated any State al-
lowance. He considered that the practice of a free country
like America would be a better precedent fcr England,
and the opinion in that country was very hostile to any
demand for a declaration of religious profession. Ile
defended the returns of Mr. Horace Mann, with
which, he asserted, that the Bishop of Oxford was satisfied
so far as that right reverend prelate's diocese was concerned.
He objected to the clause as an infringement of religious
belief, as well as on other grounds.
Mr. HENLEY made a few observations, and expressed
a hope that the Government would not revert to the plan
adopted in 1851.
Sir G. LEWIS replied in the negative.
After a few remarks from Mr. Mansir,
Lord R. CECIL said he considered that the withdrawal
of the words in question ought to afford satisfaction to the
members of the church establishment. It was now appa-
rent that it was the latter who desired for correct infor-
mation, which the Dissenters were desirous of concealing.
He stated that the returns of 1851 were most erroneous, and
asserted that the Dissenters had represented in many in-
stanies that on the census Sunday their chapels were at-
tended by a much larger number than they could possibly
contain.

Mr. E. JAMES accused the Homo Secretary of having
made a speech more suited to a philosopher than a states-
man, and having been most unjust and cynical in his re-
marks relative to those Dissenters who acted conscientiously
in regard to this question.
After a long discussion,
Lord PALMERSTON explained the nature of the pro-
posed inquiry, hnd expressed his opinion that there was not
a shadow of reason in the objections which had been
urged. When the penalty was withdrawn no Nonconformist
had any cause for complaint. lie regretted that the Non-
conformists had adopted the course they had taken.
The discussion having been continued amidst much im-
patience by Lord J. Manners, Sir C. Douglas, and Mr.
Dawson, the amendment was agreed to.
Mr. CIIILDERS moved that the word "education " be
inserted.
the lace at
Sir O. LEWIS said he did not know what it
meant—
whether it meant the nature of education or p
which persons were educated.
The amendment was negatived, and the bill passed
through committee.
CENSUS (IRELAND) BILL.
This bill passed through
in m
onenit toefethe words "religious
professions" being insertedthe clauses.
committee,
METROPOLIS LOCAL ACT AMENDMENT BILL.
On the order for going into committee on this bill,
Mr. T. MILLER moved that this house will upon this
day three months resolve itselpinto the said committee.
it being now a quarter six o'clock, the subject
drolp'hpeedo.rders of the day having been disposed of, the house
adjourned at six o'clock.

LADY SUPPORTERS OF THE VOLUNTEER RIFLE
IkrovEmENT.--A day or two since a lady in deep mourning
waited upon Mr. J. Austin, the treasurer of the Regent's-
park dish ict of the North Middlesex (St. Pancras) Rifles,
and stated that she had observed the steady and attentive
conduct of the effectives of the above corps on their passage
to and from the Regent's-park and barracks for the pur-
poses of drill, and she considered it the duty of every one to
contribute towards the support of such a noble institution
as that of the Rifle Volunteers. The lady then handed the
treasurer a donation, with the further instruction that her
name was to be registered as an annual subscriber,
i or hono-
rary member of the North Middlesex Rifles. On inquiring
the lady's name and address, it turned out that the benefac-
tress was no other than Lady Franklin, the widow and
.re_l2
of the late lamented Sir John Franklin, the
voyager. Lady Franklin is not the only paY,_°e corps.
lady
a
of distinction who has contributed to the bOV
rumoured h
Miss burdett Coutts and one or two qtahteras
ladies'
standingies
have subscribed, and it is Pose. of presenting_
com-
mittee is about to be formed for the
the corps with some embroidered n
respect and admiration. Sags or other tokens of