The Sun.
London, England, 1860-02-17 00:00:00

they said, " if the service permitted ;" but he (Mr. Henley)
knew very well they would not say that—they would say the
service would not permit it. They must also remember
that the Queen's service held out no hope of promotion to a
man before the mast. The number of warrant , fficers was
extremely small ; whereas if they looked to the number of
able seamen in the merchant service, and to the certificated
mates and masters, they would see that the chance of pro-
motion to good men is not only large but certain. Therefore
they could not expect that men would enter the Queen's ser-
vice unless they got good terms, and let those terms be made
short, so that the men might know what they were about.
Mr. LIDDELL said the naval volunteer corps system had
not worked well, for there had been too much red tape con-
nected with it. He was of opinion that they ought to im-
pose as few restrictions upon long voyages as possible—
indeed, in his opinion, every facility ought to be given to
the young seaman in them. But what he chiefly rose to
comment upon was that the most valuable feature in the
whole project had not been carried out—the establishment
of trainmg ships in our ports. Another matter for observation
and regret was, that the merchant service and the Queen's
service had been kept too distinct, and, in his opinion, it
would be for the advantage of both if less difference existed
between them. He hoped that Parliament, in dealing with
this large subject, would net be led away by any notion of
false economy—all were interested in this great question,
whether men of war or men of peace. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. W. S. LINDSAY could not give his support to the
motion. There could be no doubt but the present system of
manning the navy had failed, as he had foreseen. The
merchant seamen did not enter into the service of the Queen,
although the press had done all it could to write it up. An
essential question for the house to consider was, whether,
owing to recent changes and scientific improvements in the
navy, it would not be possible to man the ships efficiently
with fewer sailors and mere marines, and whether the vast
improvements which had taken place in machinery would not
diminish the necessity for thenumber of sailors which used
formerly to be employed. He had suggested to the Admi-
ralty, for instance, that patent trusses should be employed ;
but the answer he received was that they would twist off the
mast heads, an objection which he had never heard made in
the American service, where trusses were largely used. A
sailor cost £44 a year, whilst a marine cost only £32 a year.
Why, then, should not a marine, if he did the work as well,
have the preference ? If the plan which he had proposed
had been adopted the Governmont might have reduced the
navy to a very considerable extent. The reason why the
men would not enter the navy was simply because they had
no confidence in it, and why was that ?—because there had
been so many barriers between the merchant service and
the navy. He had endeavoured to break them down by
his propositions recorded in the blue book. He proposed
to have boys in the school ships alike for the merchant
service and the navy, so that in accordance with their
training or good conduct they might be drafted off to the
navy or owners of merchant vessels. He proposed that
the merchant owners and the Government should nominate
a certain number of boys to these schools. His desire
was to open up Greenwich Hospital for the benefit
of all seamen. He would ask the Government why, when
they appealed to seamen of the merchant service they did not
also appeal to the officers of that service, and give them the
opportunity of distinguishing themselves in time of war?
On the one hand, they had in the navy retired officers who
cost the country £600,000 a year, and on the other, there
was a scarcity of lieutenants even now, and during the Cri-
mean war there was a very great scarcity indeed. Sup-
pose they entered the 30,000 men asked for last year
what could they do with them without officers to command
them ? Who were the officers in the merchant service ?
Why they were quite equal to the gentlemen of the navy in
education and sobriety, and all those qualities which-were
required to make them good seamen and efficient officers.
(Hear, hear.) If the Government had adopted his scheme
they would have obtained 30,000 men, and at a far less coat
than they would do new. He objected to flogging in the
navy, and he was therefore glad to see that some change
was made in that respect. Then the articles of war were
bad ; why not change them, and make them plain, to be
understood by the men ? If they would but do so they might
prevent their being a barrier to entering the service. In
some respects the punishment was so severe that the cap-
tain could not enforce it, and on the other hand it prevented
the men from entering the service.
Lord C. PAGET said he did not rise for the purpose of
opposing the motion of his gallant friend. Far from it, and
he was exceedingly glad that his gallant friend had called the
attention of the house to the question of manning the navy.
All he could say was this, that the Government were as fast
as they could carrying out the recommendations of the
Royal Commissioners. (Hear.) He would endeavour to
show what the Government were doing as regarded the pro-
posals of the commissioners. But he would first make one or
two remarks upon what had been said by the right hon. gen-
tleman the member for Oxfordshire (Mr. Henley) and the
hon. member for Northumberland (Mr. Liddell). It was
surprising that in all these matters there should be such a
great difference of opinion. He would take the case of the
volunteer force. His hon. friend said they tied them up too
tightly, for they enrolled them for five years, and then if a
war broke out, they insisted upon the men remaining
another five years. Now all he could state was, that if there
was not some guarantee of that sort, and if there should be
a war towards the end of the term, the greater part of the
men enrolled would say that they would not go to sea. His
right hon. friend opposite said, why not enter the men for
life ? So that it would seem that on the one hand they were
asked to enter them for life, and on the other for only five
years, and then let them go perfectly free. He would admit
that this new measure was fraught with considerable diffi-
culty, and the observations which hon. gentlemen made were
extremely valuable, because if they found the measure did
not work well, they could tell the house so, and say that it
required amendment. Some hon. gentlemen condemned the
measure, but they should recollect that it had only been in
operation for six weeks, and the Government had reason to
believe from the accounts received that the men were be-
ginning to get over that extraordinary delusion under which
they had laboured, viz., that they were to be entrapped into
the navy and sent off to the China war. He had received
communications from officers in the navy stating that what
he had said in the House of Commons had had already a
good effect. (Hear, hear.) He thought it very hard that
the measure should be condemned at once before it had time
to work, and before they could ascertain whether it would
be successful or not. As regarded the remarks of his gal-
lant friend the member for Southwark, that the Govern-
ment had neglected to adopt the measures proposed by the
commissioners, he would mention to the house that they
had placed the Majestic at Liverpool as a coast guard
ship, and the Dauntless at one of the other stations.
As to the complaints made in reference to the pen-
sioners not being allowed the same rating as formerly
at sea, the Admiralty had no knowledge of them.
He thought he would find that it was a very rare case that
a pensioner win came back to the service was not treated
with every possible consideration, and that he was appointed
to those duties which he had to perform before he left the
service. Another complaint was this, that the men could
not get leave to go on shore. but were kept prisoners in the
neighbourhood of the ship.
Sir C. NAPIER—At the ports.
Lord C. PAGET continued. His gallant friend was
wholly misinformed, for if the men wished to leave the ship
and the port, they had only to ask for a pass to enable them
to go where they pleased. It was true they did not allow
these men to leave the ship unless they asked for a pass.
Sir C. NAPIER—Whom are they to ask ?
Lord C. PAGET—The captain of the ship.
Sir C. NAPlER—Suppose he should change his mind?
(Cries of " Order.")
Lord C. PAGET—His gallant friend next-said, " Why
not man the seaports with marines ;" but he should remem-
ber that, if these men did not go to sea, they would no
longer be marines but landsmen. His right hon. friend
opposite last year increased the navy by 2,000 marines, and
the present Admiralty asked for an additional 1,000, so
that they would gradually have 5,000 marines, the number
recommended by the commissioners. In one year theyhad
entered 3,000 out of the 5,000. (Hear, hear.) Was not
that carrying out the views of the royal commissioners ?
(Llear, hear.) The gallant admiral said why not enter the
boys ? His answer was that the Admiralty had taken
2,000 boys on the recommendation of the commissioners.
They would be glad to do more, but the expenses were so
large that when they came to the training ships they found
they ran away with such large sums of money that they
were bound to see how one scheme answered before com-
mencing another. (Hear, hear.) A great many other
points had been referred to, and one of them as to training
seamen in gunnery practice. He could state that the Ad-
miralty gave an additional sixpence per day to seamen who
could instruct others, and they would give id. or lid.
per day to men who chose to qualify themselves and to un-
dergo an examination showing that they were well up in
the duties relating to gunnery. (Hear, hear.) He could
assure the gallant admiral and the house that the recom •
mendations of the royal commissioners were under the con-
stant consideration of the Board of Admiralty, and if time
were given most of those recommendations would be car-
ried out. As to employing the officers of the merchan t
service, he would remark that if the men came into the
navy they would then invite the officers to do so. (Hear.)
Another arrangement was, that continuous service men
would get their clothes. He hoped also some progress was
being made towards paying the men more rapidly; in
short, it was the constant endeavour of the Admiralty to
' act upon the recommendations of the commissioners for
the
improvement of the naval service. (Hear, hear.)
the coasting
coasTtAinYgLtrOaß saiddewa it
s a had formerly
nexcellentn beenutast observed th
y forthenavyat,
but it had been so much interfered with of late years by
purpose.b
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nal
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twthhearanst
sea. A groat proportion of theseq
vessels, moreover, ere imported
wereby
600,000 tons, or about half the quantity,
screw steamers, which not only carried amuchsmlaarlgleerr cargo
than sailing ships, but also required a much
num-
ber of man to take them. In fact, it was the belief of many
sailors, of whom he was one, that we should see not only
the coasting trade, but the whole sailing trade of
try destroyed. This was a serious matter with regard to
providing able men for the navy.
Sir J. ELPIIINSTONE said he had listened with great
pleasure to the statement of the noble lord. He would still
beg to press upon his attention the necessity of carrying out
the system of school ships, which was the basis of the whole
reserve scheme. Let them not be deterred by the trifling
expense which would be incurred by such an establishment.
There were some other recommendations of the commis-
sioners about which he had heard nothing from the noble
lord. As to the hulks, there was certainly one at Ports-
mouth, the Bellerophon, which had been much improved,
but he (Sir J. Elphinstone) had visited some of these vessels,
and he did not wonder at the complaints of the men, or that
they should prefer the light and warmth which they met with
at, the public-house to the life on board one of the hulks.
With regard to the men, there were two classes of them—
first, the continuous-service men, whom we were.to retain;
secondly, there were the unattached men, who never meant
to return. As to the first of these classes, he would pay the
men two-thirds of what was due to them, and keep the re-
mainder in hand, allowing them to go and see their friends
without reference to their accounts at all. As to flogging in
the navy, he was convinced that it was perfectly impossible
to do away with it. They must have the lash, if only to
give the men themselves a sense of security. But the fact
now was, that the Admiralty were so severe and capri-
cious with regard to the captains, that the captains them -
selves in many cases would rather let a man off than flog
him for fear of consequences to himself. (Hear.) He also
wishe I to ask why the articles of war, which were per-
fectly obsolete in practice, were retained in their present
shape ? (Ile ir, hear) He recommended that a commission
should be appointed to cut down, the articles of war and
bring them into accordance with the htirhane notions which
inspired our penal code at the present day. (Hear, hear.)
Admiral Sir M. SE Yikl OUR said ho was glad to hear
that the noble lord had giveh them the assurance that there
1 wita,,syaelveo
ery
as it was desire to carry out the recommendations of the
misien.TehviadtecniutetsbtaietnoNuvarsporne one
present
t a very pressing
character,arrangements
etwereata ers ietnos:,:Ehuipeciphei,irt.aHe thought, however, that it was a mis-
hat harshness towards the men was a
the navy.
system, frequent d 1,,•ai,-leilsti-ilea. ted them hitherto from enter-
ingmethod which
was a matter of great anslintyF'L"ace,
had been made to the
that
country,he
Prevaileidsienr,egard to the compulsory
of any political disturbancesi n iminowthethevatenitt
arising, •or in such a contin-