The Sun.
London, England, 1856-03-07 00:00:00

THE SON, LONDON, FRIDAY EVEN I fl/4 0, MARCH 7 1866.

the house and granted to the various training and elemen-
tary schools throughout the country—that the sum has been
well expended and has given a good return. (Hear.) But
it is impossible not to admit that while such have been the
advantages of the system there have been also great defi-
ciencies. However, before I go into these deficiencies let
nee state that I do not think it was intended by those who
in 1539 began 64s system, thet the plan should be such as
that it should provide the people of this country with a
complete system of education. On the contrary, the
object was to chew them such models of teaching,
to show them such improvements in the modes of
education as that in time the obstacles that stood
in the way of a national system might be removed, and a
scheme might at last be framed with every improvement
that experience might suggest. In looking at the reports
made in 1854 by the inspectors of schools, I am sorry to say
that the tone of many of thorn, being, as they are, men of
eminent:Audi/me/its, and naturally attached to the system
which they wish to promote—that their tone is frequently
one of despondency and discouragement. They observe
that. a very great proportion of the boys leave the schools
at a very early period, and that every year that period be-
comes still earlier. that the education, which was at
first extended to the ages of eleven and- twelve years, is
now only extended to ten. I will take the liberty of read.
iug some extracts from Mr. Moseley's report because he is
a person in whom the. house may entirely confide, having
conducted, with distinguished success, the task confided
to him by the Council, and being now retired to an-
other situation. Mr. Moseley says, that by the census
of 1851 the number of boys between 10 and 15 years. at
school, were only 36 per cent. of the whole number. The
number at school was 348 430 ; at work, 356,872; at
neither, 259,681; making a total of 962,!:/87. He goes
on to sty, " kll your lordships' offcrts have hitherto
had for their object the perfection of the elementary
schools, and a hope was entertained by me that when
the children of the poor found that they derived more
good than before from the schools their parents would send
them for longer time, and that thus, by degrees, there
would be created such a public opinion favourable to the
schools as would induce them to make sacrifices of the
children's wages for the necessary time. I will not conceal
from your lordships that in that hope I have been disap-
pointed. In many cases the result has been the reverse.
The parents reasoned that the schools being now so good,
the children might get their education in less time, and
therefore they take them away sooner." But the evidence
of Mr. Moseley is corroborated by that of other inspectors,
of whose opinions I shall only trouble the house with two
or three instances. The inspector for the eastern coun-
ties had inquiries made with reenect to the schools in his
district, in which there were 2 6,16 boys. Of these only
232 were twelve sears old, and in 1848 these 2i'2 had be-
come labourers. In the counties of Gloucester and War•
wick there were in 1850 above twelve years of age at school
9 per cent., above nine 33, melting 42 per cent. of the
wirele at school above nine years of age. That was no
very encouraging proportion, but in 1 '53 here were, above
twelve years et* ag-, only 8 per cent., ,r,bove nine, 31 per
-cent., making 39 per cent., instead of 41 above nine years
of Nw, Mr.`Moseley partly asks whether the higher
classes in this couutre would be satisfied with an educa-
tion for their sons which sheuld end at the age of 9 or 10
year ,? A clergyman, who writes to one of the inspectors
from Ipstene, says :—" He really thinks that comp • ring
the present time with several years ago there are fewer
who can read and write in his parish than there were at
the time." (Hear, hear ) In the report given lest year
by Mr. Norris, of an examination he made of the boys
employed in the mines of Staffordshire, he says that
on examining several boys then at eehonl, he found
that the greatest ignorance prevailed. They had been
at school from nine years, and he examined them at
fourteen or fifteen. (Hear.) They were nnable to say
how much 3s. a day was a week ; and when he examined
theta with regard to their religious knowledge they did
not know the names of tire Evangelists, could not
name the Four Gospels, and when he asked which of the
apostles betrayed Jesus, one slid Peter, and another Abra-
ham. (A laugh ) Such was the amount of knowledge
among the boys who had received their education at the
local schools. (Hear.) Mr Norris, as I shall have again
OCCLMOTI to mention, has since then taken great pains to
improve the education of these boys from the ages of ten
to fifteen. Such, then, being tho defects that prevail, that
that these boys anti girls above ten years old hardly receive
the benefits of education, and as the evil is becoming
greater instead of less, owing to the improvement in the
quality of education required, it becomes this house to con-
shier what remedy ought to be applied to the case. The
right hon. gentleman opposite mentioned last year one ob-
vious defect in the system of the Committee of the Privy
Council, which, as he said, belonged to the original founda-
tion, but which, if you should •consider in anoter year the
scheme of a national education, is deserving of your utmost
attention. The right hon. gentleman seid most truly that
the plan is one to give assistance to those who are able to
afford a great portion of the sum required for education '
themselves, who, whether by slam iptions or by school
pence, or by any nthtr means, cen themselves furnish the
necessary funds. The consequence of such a system is, that
in those places which ei•her, being peer have not the money
or beiuer rich have not the inclination, the cause of educe-

tion does not prosper, and these places remain in their origi-
nal darkness. Having stated those defects, having eta'ed
them very generally, I wish now to state generally what in
my opinion should be the attempt of Parliament on this
great subject. It appears to me that we oughi to lay clown
two principles, from neither of which we ought, if possible,
is depart. The one is to make the education complete, and
the other is to maintaie, to encourage, and as much as pos-
sible to improve that which we have found to be good in
the existing system. Now with respect to the first of these
objects, I do not think the, o tr end would he obtained un-
less we brought the education of the pc.iple of this country,
this rich, intelligent, and free country to the state tewhich it
has been brought in countries which have adopted national
schemes of education. In Switzerland, in the most ad-
velem( cantons—Beare, for instance —nearly one in four
are receiving educ.ition at the schools. In the New Eng
bead &Imola one in five ate rtceiving education. If we
take the p .pulation of this country from the census of
b5l et eighteen millions—vol it must be a larger number
at the present time, bat take it, at eighteen millions—and
if we 5%V one in five ought to receive education. then
3.600.000 out of the f inr millions between the ages of five
end fifteen ought to be receivi,e; e•lucation. Ido not
.h uk this is by any means tea high an estimate. It is
whet nay been attaitie in other countrime. in other coma-

tripe not all ;dOCt to absolute fie arbitrary rule, but in free
eeent:itie which v their lihetes, and vtlue their
sun tl i'dePein'etice- W. can et 1! eat. ie in riche wi
Switzerltnt, reel I trust we can vie with New Miele,' in
liberty;; anti I do not think we etielat to have lees olive-
tiou than either of these ceiintrios think ilecess-iry icr
the iteelves. (Hear, lie .r.) There is one co iut'y toe, near
ourselves, in which—although it mar be a su jest
troveree et the present time—most remarkable results have
eeen achieved by a system of nation d education —I meat
Scotland. (Hear.) We here h ev• r since the Reforma-
tion a system of n %timed education • stabisimil in Scott:v.l,
which via full her at, engthened efteri he 1-tevelutien 41688.
and which every statesman who hes sunken, every philost.
pher who has written on the subject, has considered not
only a a nice of orris to Sco ! nd, hut a senile:, of tee
grealest develtoment es regarded the moral qualities of her
people. (Hsu.) In the parish in which I hippened to he
residing some three or four ye ire since, taring the Admi-
eistration of the Earl of Derby, I inquired of the minister
of religion there how many of the children id not receive
education, and I was toll there was no child above seven
years old who could not read fluently. and also write a
little. We have, therefore, before us with respect to the
general amount of education, th !se examples of Scotland
tied Switzerlend, as well as that of the moat enlightened of
the United States of America. Let us next consider thet
which is said to he another element for our consideration,
namely, the system which is at present in action, and th
schools that have been already established. I have stated
that these schools receive a grant of 500,0001. enunally, but
it is obvious that they are founded on this plan, that appli-
cations are made either to the inspector or to the committee
of the Privy Council for aid by those who wish to establish
a school, and that there is no inquiry and no obligation with
respect to the place in which the school is to be established.
I propose then to contmence—perhaps I should say a few
word' before I do so with regard to the plan of the right
hon. gentlemen opposite (Sir J. Pekingtort), and which he
proposed last year. The right hon. gentleman proposed
plan of rating, and made various regulations, to which, 1
think, some serious objections may be takes. In the fit st
place he made it permissive ; and I must admit that the
seine objection applied to the bill introduced by myself. In
the next place he proposed that the schools should befree.
Now I shall not discuss, at the present moment. the ques-
tion of whetherthe education should be free ; but it is clear
that you cannot maintain the present system if you have
schools receiving grants from the Privy Council and at the
same time being mainly supported by subscription, and also
have entirely free schools. I think it is obvious that when
free schools are established those who wish their sons end
daughters to receive education woul I resort to those free
schools, and that those who have neeintideed the present
schools by their subscriptions, and have worked with earnest-
ness anti zeal year after year, and month after month, in
furtherance of their object, employing to the utmost every
means for establishing these schools, would be unable to
make any-farther effort, so that the schools under the new
system would be fatal to these which are at present in ex-
istence. To this abjection I think the right hon. gentleman's
plan is open; but iu proposing as I do to go on the found ition
of the present system, it is first to be considered in how far
that system can be improved ; end on this subjectl lo notenter
intotietaile,hecause wehave nathie moment a me owe before
us which is likelyto provide us with the most efficient means
of remedying everything that may be objectionable—l
mean the-bill giving to the Crown power to appoint aVice
President of the vorntitittee of the Privy Council on &loca-
tion. There are many things iu the present system which I
think are matters of doubt, and in which I think impreve-
mente may be made ; and I think th it, haling the Tice-
Presid nt of th t Committee cf Pt ivy Council in the house
with us, discuss-ing the varit us details when the grants
coins to be movetl,will be the means of understanding and
of originating those improvements, and of aniendine the
present system. I will give an instance of one mode by
which the Briton' of grants inieht be faille, gel. There are
various restrictions which might have been necessary on
the flint estahliehment of these minutes of council, but
which I de not believe are II• ceesiry to be continued. For
instance, it is ,sai t with regent to the Church mid other
itenoininations, that when a school is connected with either
church or chat el, it shell not restive any grant from the
committee. I believe that if you establish a good sys-
tem of inspection, if )ou find your school a good school,
r
and you inspectionis extended only to secular instruction,
you ought net to melee it an objection that the school was
connected with achuich or ilissenti og chapel (Hear.) There
are otter points which I think it might he u-eful to have
re-considered. I think it may alto be said with truth thet
these minutes of council have been adopted at various
times, and as new questions erose. It would he a most
useful work, I think, to consolidate thee* minutes, se that
that they might be more intelligible to the house,and more
available in workieg out an extended plan. At present
propose,le o n any
move
they are scattered up and down the various volumes in a
manner that makes it very difficult to findtle
honour
in the
first to
prertirceulolaru
tquestion.resolution which
shouldshall
havetheretfhoere
this evening, "That, in the pinion of this house, it
is expedient to revise and consolidate the minutes of
the Committee of Privy Conned." I copse next
to that fact, which is certainly a defect in a na
tional system, namely, that where there is light you add
light, and that where there is darkness you do not in-
trod
in-
troduce any light whatever. I think it necessary for
the purpose of carrying out the policy which we have al-
ready adopted, that you should inquire with respect to
the state of education in any part of the kingdom. For
this purpose I do not propose—l leave it entirely to the
president of the Committee of Council of Education—l do
not propose myself to increase the number of inspectors.
There are at present I think 24 inspectors connected with
the Church of England, and 16 for the other schools—but
I propose to add to them a very numerous class of sub-
inspectors, who might not be very highly paid, but who
having comparatively small divisions of the country under
their inspection may be liable to ascertain and to report
on the state of education in their particular part of the
country. There are in England and Wales 52 counties,
there are 26 of these oountiep whieb have been divided

under the reform act, and there is, besides, the Ipde
of Wight. I do not say that these divisions coult;
be exsctly maintained, but I think that about the 3aln•
area as one county, on the division of a larger county
would be a sufficient district for a sub-inspector, and
would sufficiently occupy his tia.e and attontion. I pro-

pose, therefore, in the second resolution, to move—
" That it is expedient to add to the present inspectors of
Church schools 80 sub-inspectors, and to divide England and
Wales into 80 divisions for the purposes of education. That
it is expedient to appoint sub inspectors of British, Wesleyan,
and other Protestant schools not connected with the Church.
an I also the Roman Catholic schools, according to the pre-
sent proportions of inspectors of such schools to the inspec-
tors of Church schools. That on the report of the inspectors
and sub-inspectors, the Committee of Privy Council should
have power to form in each divbdou school districts, consist-
ing of single or united parishes, or parts of parishes."
It is obvious that the present division of the country into
parishes is not one which in all cases is most convenient
for the purposes of education. The right hon. gentleman
opposite urged last year, and I somewhat differed from
him, but I must own that he was right, and that in many
eases two or three small parishes might be united, while in
others there are parishes to, large to be governed as a
single school district, and which it would be expedient to
divide for that purpose. What I propose by this resolution
is that the sub-inspectors should submit to the inspectore
their views, and that the President of the Council, having
the whole case before him, should divide into school dis-
tricts the whole of England and Wales. Of course it would
be a matter of consideration and detail whether the divi-
sions thus made should not receive the authority of an
order in council, but it appears to tee that if you had, asat
present, 24 inspectors and 80 sub-inspectors, they would
ne able to make very convenient divisions, and to consider
the subject with great practical effect. The consequence
of these proceedings would be that the sub-inspectors, who
would be of course an entire novelty in the scheme, would
be able to ascertain and report the ex,,ct places in which
the means of education wore deficient. I propose, there-
fore, in another resolution, that the sub-inspector of
each division should be instructed to report on the avail-
able Meals of education in his particular division.
Now, it may be that many of the parishes—for after all
a great portion of the divisions would be parishes—being
thus inquired into and examined, there would be in many
cases a willingness on the part of the owners of parishes,
and on the part of the people generally, to build schools,
and to introduce the present system. But you must see
what aid we can further obtain for this end. There was

one kind of assistance which is now certainly received, but
which I think might be considerably enlarged. I think aid
might he obtained from the endowed charities of the coun•
try. I have the honour of being one of the commissioners
•1 charities--not certainly a very active one—but in attend-
tug sittings of that commission I have seen enough to be
convinces:. that while the commissioners are most zealous

and laborious in the performance of their duties, the
powers they possess are insufficient for the purpos-s
for which the commission was appointed, and that Par-
listuent ought to extend them. (Rear, bear.) Tho de-
tects are of several kinds. One is, that there are scarcely
any chiles iu which the commissioners have power to do
more than to gave advice. If that advice i taken, the
trustees of chariti-s are subject to no penal consequences
if it be not acted upon ; but, if they do not take it, them
are no means of compelling them to do so. The commis-
sioners barb themselves pointed out these defects in a re-
port rece .1 ly laid upon the table. In instances where the

invitee,' are willing to act upon the advice of the commis•
?dune's, and to wake the charities more effective and use-

NI, it is necessary, according to the act of Parliament,
that the commissioners should send them before some

court to ruaintate that which they desire to de.

Thus a

very heavy expense is incurred, often unreasonably laro
when compared with the means of the charity. There were
more th,n 28,00,) charities reported upon by the commis-
sion, end of these there were upwards of 20,000—1 think
21,f400--whose incomes were tinier 201. a year each—some

of them as low 51.; and there are many of the larger ones
that are unable to bear the expense of au application to
the Court of Chancery for a decree, which is seldom
less than 30/. One or two instances that have come

to my knowledge, I will refer to, as showing the grievance of
the present law in this respect. One is the case of a charity
the trustees of which, laudably as I believe and from the best
of motives, wishing to remove a schoolmaster they consi-
dered incompetent or otherwise unfitted to conduct the
schi 01, applied to the court. The schoolmaster resisted,
and put them t 44 an expense of 2001. There happened to
have been some technical defect in the mode of proceeding,

and the deci ion of the court was against them. They went
again to the Court of Chancery, and this time the school-
master was removed, but at an expense to the trustees of
1,200/. ; so that they had Lo pay 1,4001. for their andel-

. .
yours to reform the charity and make it more perfectly
available for the objects for which it was founded. But I
may be told there was a remedy for this. What was that

remedy ? Why, these truate eswho had thus spent 1.4001.
in going to the Court of Chancery had the power, if they
chose to exercise it, of applying to the court again to have
the 1,400/. repaid to them out of the funds of the charity,
those funis being, in the case I am alluding to, 701.

a year. (Hear.) Take another case, one in which a diffe-
rence aroaa ne to • birth partical.r p:iriih was entitled to
be the recipient of the ohm ity. The own was not large,

bat it led to a dispute between two adjaioing

The cowmiseioners had n., other couraebut to send the

parties to the Courts ot Chancery. I ventured to ask what
would be the result of that, and I was told it would be

that no whole of the funds of the charity would be dissi-
pated in law expenses, and that nothing would remain for
the purposes for which the money had been left. (Hear.)
Well, sir, that ii the remedy according to the present law.

I own it :wears to me that w th respect to many of these
cases very great imprevernents might be effected. I had
placed in my hands yew erlay by that excellent friend
of education, the Dean of Hereford, a sermon on the
misapplication of chaeties, and ho places iu the first
line the funds Lft for charitable purposes—those
bequests and ther eleemosynary gifts, which are not
only not useful, but positively injurious to the
parishes to which they holing. Now, if the com-
iniesieneis hel tl.e power in these cases, and in
ethers such as I have mentioned, to apply the funds in
founding s good school, or enlarging an existing school, and
where there are apprenticeship preiniems in making other
prizes to be given to te, se pupils who most distinguish
themselves, and enabling them to get on in the world, I
thiek a very gloat !meet would result. I know of lie
reason why such a power should not be conferred upon the
commissionerie except !het both in this and the other house
of Parliament there is sue an amount of influence pos-
se lied by law% err of he Chancery bar as to render the
ehanc sof such a measure bring carried very slight in
deed; unleme, indeed the subject were taken np by the
Govevnment themselver. (Hear, and a laugh.) A great
Chancellor of France D'Aneueeeeau, it is said, was once
asked if he was not struck with the abuses that were
going • n in the courts that were subject 10 him, and
whether he had not thought of reforming them. His reply
was, " I have often thou lit of it ; I have often °oust-
tiered it ; but when . I reflect upon the number
of barristers and solicitors who would be ruined
be it I hesitate in taking such a step." I believe that re-
forms might be very usefully made in the direction I have
indicated ; end 80 tar from sh ling in the apprehensions
of the Chancellor D'A egessean, I believe that such change
would ensure the leseet amd other busters of the country,
and probably we should find he Chancery bar under them
even ieore flourishing than it is now. Therefore, sir, I
propose as my sixth resolution—
That for the purpose of extending such means it is erpedi-
eut that the powers at present possessed by the Commissioners
of Ctaritable Trusts be enlarged, and that funds now useless
or injurb.us to the community, be applied to the education of
the middle and poorer classes of the community.
Clauses to that effect, it will be remembered, were sub-
mitted to the House of Lords last year or the year before—
lam not sure which—but were not adopted, because it
was thought dangerous to entrust such powers to any of
the courts. Having thus applied all the means which are
at present within our reach, or which may come within
our reach by some simple enactments, I now come to con-
sider whether it is sufficient that we should have an ac-
count of the state of education in every parish, aed
whether the existing means, aided by increased grants,
should bo applied to the remedying of the immense defi-
ciency that exists ? lam bowl(' to say that in many cases
the existing means would be found altogether inadequate.
I am bound likewise to say that I think the remedy pro-
posed both by the right hon. baronet (Sir J. Pakington)
andt:
parishes thyself,
atnhda at
iweer
chtosuolifl
icient or adequate. (Hear.) Ft has been too frequently
githvee permissive powers merely
country, would not be anf-
found that, in cases where there was the greatest want,
the greatest disinclination to give was experienced and
the most influence was invoked to prevent the establish-
ment of seheols. I stn afraid that, if the permissive
power only ware given, it would not be aged ; the
deplorable ignorance which now prevailed in many
parishes and
gdeieostmriecwtshee rwould continue. I have come,
therefore, to the conclusion that not only should a rate
allowed, but that there should he a
which should have the means of
theipenooilviereaireclhelixnicgsatsineb
parish or districts which had been marked
out in the way I have described by the inspectors, and de-
clared by the Committee of Privy Coancil to lbe inade-
quately supplied with the means of education, to impose a
rate. The mode by which I would do so is this. I would
allow any persons to apply to the court of quarter sessions
of the county, the city, or the borough, as the case may be,
and complain—as they do now when a highway is impas-
sable, and requires to be repaired—that there wenn° means
of education, or that the means existing were ivadequate,
and that, therefore, an order should be made by the court
on the parish or district to levy a rate. I havenot stated the
amount of the• rate, that is a matter that would have to be
settled in the bill, when the detail's of which were consi-
dered would be the proper time to fix the amount of the rate.
The right hon. gentleman opposite proposed in his scheme
that it should not exceed sixpence in the pound. Possibly it
might not be necessary that it should go so far, but that
there should be a rate fully adequate for the purpose which
the means of education are wanting, I think is absolutely)
essential (Hear.) I ghoul.] state that at present I should
propose the formation of districts, rated of course accord-
ing to the state of each parish, but that the greets, local
subscriptions, grants from the Committee of privy council,
and the addition of aid from charitable endowments of the
couNtrv, should be resorted to in the, first instance. My
seventh resolution is—

That it is expedient that in any school district where the
means of education arising from endowment, subscription
grants, and school-pence, shall be found deficient, and shall
be declared to be so by the Committee of Privy Council for
Education, the ratepayers should haws the power of taxing
themselves for the erection and ,maintenance of a school or
schools. •

And the eighth declares—
That after the let of January, 1858, when any school dis-
trict shall have been declared to be deficient, in adequate means
for the education of the poor, the quarts r sessions of the
peace for the county, city, or borough shoo Id have power to
impose a school-rate.
The ninolt is :

That where a school-rate is imposed, a st ;heel committee
sleeted by the rate-payers should appoint th .e schoolmasters
and mistresses, and make regulations for th e management of
the .sch ol s .

Having thee arrived at the power to impo re a school rate,
either voluntarily by the ratepayers themes dyes, or in their
default by the supes ior authority of a sour t, I come to the
consideration of ono of the most difficult pa rte of the whole
question. So long as you have subscribers who undertake
the inanageinen,. of the schools, you may re ly, as you have
relied, upon them for the general principles tram which the
schools should be conducted. The Committees of Council on
Education from the first adopted the mode of entrusting
either certain great societies, or persons watt known from
their general views and their character, wit h the task of
giving religious education to the poor of each district where
the schools existed. In the case of the Church schools, after
a very considerable time spent in discussion ana ► negotiation,
it was agreed by my noble friend Lord Lan ulowne and
some others, of whom I was one, on the part .of the Com.
mittee of Council on Education on the one pe,Tt, and by thi
Archbishop of Canterbury, the BishoP;OrLondokt, and the
I:+te Bishop of Salisburh the otrierxtbat the CargOlobaols

o be open to inspection, but that the inspectors
should in all cases be appointed with the consent of the
o &bishop and the bi'shop of the diocese. lam not sure
-hat I am quite right in this, bat, at all events, that some
lurch authority should be a party to the appointment.
Be it observed that, with respect to the Church schools, the
inspectors being thus appointed, the Church being con-
necte,l with the State, reviewed the accounts, and inspected
the religious as well as the secular education. As to the
other schools, the British and Foreign School Society, the
Wesleyans, and afterwards the Roman Catholics, asked
for a similar condition to that already agreed twee, that
while they admitted the right of inspection they required
that no inspector should be appointed who was repugnant
to them in any way, and to whose -appointment they were
not, in so far as having the power to object, parties. But
with regard to all those bodies—the Established Church,
the British and Foreign Sabel Society, the Wesleyans,
and the Roman Catholics—their principles are well known ;
it is perfectly well known that they will in their schOols
give religious instruction according to the tenets which
they hold sacred, and therefore the Committee of Privy
Council, in handing over to them the grants they make in
aid of their schools, have full security as to the character
of the education. With regard to all these societies we
have inspection as the secular e&uestion, and we have also
ample security that religious instruction is given. ([dear,
hear.) There has been a dispute, and it is worth the
while of the house to attend to it fora moment, inasmuch
us it tends to show the manner in which the religious in-
struction is carried into effect—there has boon a dispute
between the British and Foreign School Society and the
body of Unitarians as to the mode of teaching. The
British and Foreign School Society declared at the com-
mencement that their schools were schools for all sects
—that they should read and teach the Bible in them,
hut would adopt no particular formulae either of the
Church or of any denomination of dissent. The Unita-
rians say, "It is true that is your rule, bat by oral in-
struction you do give teaching on certain distinctive doc-
trines of Christianity from which we conscientiously dis-
sent, and you have, consequently, mot carried into effect
the principle of equality you professed." The
British and Foreign School Society say in reply that
they have only taught what they consider to be the
plain meaning of the Bible lessons that are read.
But it is obvious that in their teaching they do give
instruction in those distinctive doctrines which separate the
Church from all those bodies of dissenters which are called
orthodox dissenters, and which separate them also front
the Unitarians. (Hear.) The system assumes to be to give
the utmost latitude in reading the scriptures, and though
the Roman Catholics and the Wesleyans may have nothing
to say, in one and all it may be said that definite instruction
in religions subjects is given in the schools that receive aid
from the Privy Councilgrants. Such is the state of the case.
I am not now asking whether the system was wisely
adopted ; but I think the house should know what is the
security they have that religious instruction is given, and
what is the plan upon which the grants are mad. When
we propose that an education rate should be levied, I am
aware that itis impossible to bind the ratepayers to give the
money they raise by means of the rate either exclusively to
the Church schools or to the schools of any denomination ;
they must necessarily have great latitude and libeityleft to
them as to the education they give—(hear) —but the ques-
tion arises whether any condition whatever should bo im-
posed upon them and if arty, what that condition should
be. (Hear.) This is a question of the utmost gravity and
importance ; it is one which the house may have frequently
to consider, and it is one also which I am far from saying ,1
that I have arrived at any conclusion upon that may not
be overturned hereafter by the decision of the house. But
what the conclusion is that I have arrived at I will now

....
state. --
In the two cases I have mentioned as the free states
that I have established schools, vie., Switzerland and the

United States of America, a very different course has been
pursued. Se far as I understand it, the State of Berne
gives a Protestant instruction, while the Canton of Fri-
bourg gives a Roman Catholic education • but in each case
those who are unwilling to receive the religions instruction
afforded—that is the Roman Catholics iu Berne and the
Protestants in Fribourg—are at liberty to absent them-
selves from it, provided their parents express a desire that
they should de so ; and in this way the principle of religi-
ous liberty is recognised and respected. But the States of
New England, and more especially Massachetsstts, have
taken a different course, and it is, I think, desirable that
the house should know what that course is, and what are

the goneral opinions upon it, so that when 'they come ulti-
mately to decide, they may be enabled to have all the points
bearing upon the matter under their consideration. The

statut;s Of Massachusetts enact :

It shall be the duty of the president, professors, and tutors
of the University of Cambridge, and of the several colleges,
and of all precepters and teachers of academies and all other
instructors of youth, to exert their best endeavouis to im-
press on the minds of ehildren and youth committed to their
care and instruction the principles of piety and justice, and a
sacred regard to truth, love their country, humanity, and
universal benevolence, sobriety, industry, and frugality, chas-
tity, moderation, and temperance, and those other virtues
which are the ornament of human society, and the basis upon

which a Republican Constitution is roundel, &c.
It is obvious as far as these words are concerned that they
might have been enacted by a senate such as that of Rome
was before tho introduction of Clpintiani4y—for there is

nothing in them that gives any Christian sanction or Chris-
tian character to the schools ; but with respect to the effect,
Twieleton on the one side, and Mr. Tremenheere on the

other, have each given the impression they have received,
while several men of great eminence in the United States
Mr. Webster, Mr Everett, Mr. Winton, and Mr. Prescott,

and many others eminent in literature and political affairs,
have given their opinion in favour of the system, and state ,
that receiving the secular instruction which the children
do receive in the public schools of Massachusetts an the
week, and afterwards on the Sunday receiving distinctive
religions instruction in the Sunday-schools, or at home,'
they are brought up as good Christians, and the religious
character of the state is preserved. An Episcopal Minister,
Bishop Eastburn, of Massachusetts, says it is a fact that
none who are supposed to entertain religious sentiments
can be employed as teachers. That is a great testimony
coming from such a person—and if it he trne that no per-
son who is even suspected of irreligious opinions is ever
employed in teaching, and the ministers of religion sirs
zealous and active in their duties, and if also there pre-
vails, as there does in New England, and has from the first
arrival of the emigrants from this country, by whom the
New England States were founded—a religions and Chris-
tian sentiment, it may he perfectly true that these schools
may favour the Chris ian character of the country. Ou
the other hand, however,Mr.Tremenheere speaks as though
there were some suspicion of the teaching of such schools,
and as though he observed in the pupils a want of Chris-
tian knowledge. All I can say is, that I should be loth to
offer any opinion that was opposed to that of men so emi-
nent as those whose names I have quoted, and I should be
loth above all to give an opinion as to a particular scheme
of education which has been, after full consideration,
adopted by wise men in a foreign country. (Hear.) If it
should be the case that the Christian character of the coun-
try is preserved, and that brotherly love and Christian
charity are inculcated iu these schools, I should rejoice in
the fact, but with regard to our own country I feel that
not only are these high authorities opposed to it, lint that
there is a strong public sentiment prevailing which would
strongly disapprove of the enactment of such a law as that
to which I have alluded. In the first place, I would ask
leave of the house to road the opinion of a man, whose
opinions, whenever they are quoted, are always received
with deference and respect—the opinion of ono of theanost
virtuous and piously-animated of our public teachers—l
mean the bite Dr. Arnold. (Hear.) He says :
On the whole, I am quite clear as to my original position,
namely, that if you once get off from the purely natural
ground of physical science, philology, and purely logical—
the moment, in short, on Which you enter on moral subjects,
whether moral philosophy or history, you must either be
Christian or Antichristian ; for you touch upon the ground of
Christianity, sad you must either take it as your standard of
moral judgment, or you must renounce it, and either follow.
another standard 6r have no standard at all. In other words,
again, the moment you touch on what alone is education—
the forming the moral principles and habits of man—neutra-
lity is impossible ; it would be very possible if Christianity
consisted really in a series of theoretical truths, as many seem
to fancy ; but it is not possible, inasmuch as it claims to be
the paramount arbiter of an our moraljudgmeuts, and he who
judges of good and evil, right and wrong, without reference
to its authority, virtually denies it.
That is the opinion of Dr. Araold, and I will add that
it is the opinion of one of the present inspectors of school's,
a man of very great intelligence, and whose expetience is
at all events worth consulting in reference to the workina
of our present national schools—the Rev. Mr. Cock. I
have taken from him the account of the secular studies of
the schools and the proficiency of the scholars in geography,
arithmetic, and other subjects of edncation. He goes on to
say :

I have confined my observations hitherto to the secular as•

poet of sehool studies, because objections were generally
made by persons who believe that the time of children in na-
tional schools is absorbed by the Church catechism and un-
intelligent reading of the Old Testament. But I do feel bound
once more to hazard an opinion, deliberately formed and
confirmed by a long and minute acquaintance wick the work-
ing of elementary schools; .that the ono great influence which
has elevated and developed the intelligence of these children,
which has given clearness and accuracy to their perceptions,
which has moulded their judgment, exercised their reason,
and expanded their busgination, has been the careful and un-
interrupted study of the Word of God. The religious instruc-
tion in our best aehools is of an excellence which has never
. . .

been rivalled in any system of national education, and adlich
can he appreciated only by those who have had opportunities
both of constantly examining the children under instruction,
and of watching the effects of that teaching upon their con-
duct in after life. I know many young men and women who
are now doing their duty humbly and faithfully in their ap-
pointe I sphere of action, who gratefully attribute the measure
of success that has rewarded their exertions to their impres-
sions, instruction, and habits acquired in national schools.
Now, sir, I think the opinion of Dr. Arnold, confirmed
as it' is by the experience of this enlightened officer of the
Committee of Council of Education, must have great
weight in determining this point. I cannot but consider
myself, that there is only, in fact, one question to consider
viz., whether you will have the instruction given in these
schools confined to those secular subjects to which I have
adverted, or whether you will introduce into them moral
instruction also? If you confine yourselves to arithmetic
and geography, and such like studies, it is not necessary
that you should have any particular religion at all, but
when you say more than this- and I believe everybody
says more—that what yen seek in o ucatiug the young is
to give them moral impressions which are favourable to
the good order of society and the due performance of their
social duties in after life, those impressions which are likely
to he useful to thorn here, and conduce to the elevation of
their understandings and their well-being in all future time
—I think, then, that you cannot teach these moral princi-
ples apart from the Christian religion. But, while it is
desirable that this should be carried into effect, there is no
doubt very great practical difficulties in the way ; if you
pass the subject over altogether, and maintain, as I have
said in the resolution, that schools shall be established and
schoolmasters appointed, you may appear to be neglectful
of the great object in view; and if, on the other hand, you
prescribe too much, and give an advantage to the Esta-
blished Church over any other religious denomination,
then the great principle of religious liberty is infringed.
The only conclusion, therefore, at which I can ariive is,
that the authority of the Holy Scriptures should be gene-
rally'acknowledged in all the schools. I think Parliament
may fairly say, that in all schools established by the State
the Scriptures shall be read daily; but, at the same time,
that any parent or guardian who way wish that his child
should not receive that instruction shall he at liberty to
withdraw the child during the hours that that instruction
is being given. Ido not think that we can peas the sub-
ject over altogether, nor do I think, on the other hand,
that we can venture to go further than I propose to do he
this resolution

" That in every school supported in whole or in part by
rates, a portion of the Holy Scriptures should be read daily
hi the. school, and etch other provision should be made for
religious instruction as the school committee may think fit,
but that no child should be compelled to receixe any religious

instruction, or attend any religious worship, to which his or
her parents or guardians shall on conscientious grounds object."
Of course when any bill on the subject, empowering rating
for school pnrposes, is brought forward, it must be dis-
cussed, and it in possible that the bowie may coma to a
_different conclusion from that -to which'l have arrived ;
but, while I agiee that the grants should' be given, as they
have hitherto been, tb ail these various denominations,
you, would not-treat fairly all classes if you did Dot, on the
one hand, require that the Scripturea should* ho read in the
schools, and, on the other, give full freedom to the parimt
to withhold Vieir children from receiving it. ',After this
part of the subject comes a difficulty to which 'I have al-
ready adverted, and which is cue of the greatest 'difficulties
connected with the question, and that is, the subject
of the attendance of children at schools after the age
of ten or eleven years. The house, I believe, will entirely
agree with tne in thinking that the 'education 'of a child
which is to end at the age of nine or ten is r. 4 likely to

impress the minds and hearts of the growing generation.
I believe that all must agree that it is desirable that every
means should bo übed to secure the attendance of children
between the ages of 10 and 14. With regard to a portion
of the community there have been already enactments,
and Mr. Horner has pointed out, in a late report, that they
have been entirely' successful." I allude to those enactments
of the Factory Act which require the attendence of chil-
dren at school during some portion or other of their time.
Mr. Horner , says, not only that _the system has been sue-
ceesful, but he says, what has been confirmed by others
conversant`with the working of the s'choolsi in question,
that the children whe attend, some for half. the day, and
many more who attend in the afternoon, bestow such in-
tense attention on their lessens that they are fully compe-
tent to compete with others who attend for whole days in
the schools, for the office of school teachers. If that is the
case, there may be cases in which there should be enact-
ments by which children might be sent half the day to
school and half the day to work, or there might be enact-
ments by weigh an employer should be cothpeiled to give
certain days in the year for the attendance of children at
schools. It has been stated by more than one of the in-
spectors that the employers not only do not give facilities
for the children's attendance at schools, bet there are many
cases in which it is made a condition with the boys and
children employed that they should nutattend schools, and
than they'ate entirely debarred from receiving the beneSte
of education. There is, perhaps, a difficulty in fraining such
an enactment, but I propose in my next resolution that " it
shall be incumbent on the'employers of yonng children be-
tween the ages of 9 and 15 to give certificates half-yearly_of
the attendance of these children in schools, and that they
should pay for such iustreectiou." With regard to the last
part of the resolution, I may say that find that a noble lord
who is a great eoiployer of. labour—a noble lord who is
a most enlightened man, and who has always shown a
great regard for the welfare of those who work for him--
I mean Lord Ellesmere—has provided that all children
under a certain age in his works shall contribute 61. a week
for the purposes of schools whichare established and which
they attend, and I do not see that it is impossible or unrea-
sonable that whatleord Ellesmere does of his own free will
for the benefit of these persons who work for him should
also be done in the case of every one under the authority
of Parliament. There remains, however, a large class of
children with whom it is still more difficult to deal, I meau
that class I have before alluded to, of children between 10
and 15, who neither go to school nor work, who 'are not em-
ployed in any way, but idle about the streets and fields.
Ido not think it is possible—l should be very glad if it
were—to compel the parents of those children to send them
to school. By no enactment is it possible to reach that part
of the population of Birmingham or Sheffield, where a large
number of children are never attendants at school. But it
is possible to go so far as toaseertainthereason why parents
elo not send boys to schools who ears no wages „' and it is
perhaps that they are too poor and cannot bear the expense,
and thus often childion between 8 and 10 who have been
at school aro taken away. I know, from the reports of
schools in this neighbourhood—that in the Borough-road,
for instance —that many parents would be glad to have their
children who are not employed receiving instruction in
schools, aed so kept out of the mischief and danger of the
streets. If it could be made possible, I should be glad that
every child between 8 and 14 years of ace, when not em-
ployed, should be enabled to receive some education. There
is une scheme which has been adopted in Staffordshire,
which is called by Mr. Tremenheere the prize scheme ;
that is, a system of giving prises to those children who re-
main at school after a certain age. Another way might be
that, in case ofehe children remaining after 12 or 13, the
wheel fees should be diminished. Another way might be
to have evening schools; and there isanother way, in which
my hon. friend near me (Ur. E sart) will, I am sure, agree
with me, and that is by inviting young men to attend
libraries adapted to their capacities, which would contri-
bute at once to their amusement and instruction, and con-
duce to the keeping up of the arts of reading and writing,
which they have learnt in early age, and which otherwise
would have been given up. Not long ago I had a conver-
sation with a clergyman of Oxfordshire, who had estab-
lishe f a village library, whichhe told me was most success-
ful. A room was lighted up in the evening and furnished
with books and periodicals, and tea anti coffee provided
for those who could afford to have them, and he found it
was fully attended by the sons of labour. I think that
Some each provisions might be put in force in the first in-
stance by the Committee of the Privy Council, and after
that by means of enactment. I propose, therefore, as my
last resolution, " that it is expedient to encourage by means
of prizes, by the diminishing el school fees, and by the
establishmeut of libraries, the instruction of young persons
between the ages of 1.2 and 15."• These are the resolatioue
on which I found the proposals on this great subject which
I shall make to the house. Whether the resolutions aro
adopted or not, I believe they are at all events calculated
to reach the whole extent of the care. I think that I

ought, nob to have attempted. less. If any one can do it
better, lot him do it; but I believe that in the present
itate of the *arid and the state of the country,
. .

no one Alught to atibmpt less than a complete
education of the people. I have heard mach of
dangerous classes; bat I believe there is no class more dan-
gerous than that which acquires a little reading and a little
knowledge without any instruction in religion or any
knowledge of the political institutions of the country. I
believe that if Parliainent was to provide by law for the
education of the young, those very chases might become
the support of all our institutions, correcting. them where

they a.ri, defective, examining them with a jeithue and sus-
picious eye lest abuses shonid.e.xist in them, but not falling
offfrom their loyalty to or despiiiag the inatitutions of their
forefathers. I ought to sty that no such plan could be car-
ried out without a considerable iacrease of expenditure. I
find on looking to various returns, amt especially to a work
f Sir John Kaye Shuttleworth, to whom, and to his brother,
Mr. Kaye, we owe very valuable information—l find by their
report that 18s. a-year is she calcelated expense of each
child in attendance at the schools already establishej, Sir
James Kaye Shuttieworth says that 16s. each is the ex-
pense taking away the cost of the house in which the
schoolmaster lives. If 18s. a-year is the expense of each
chit 1, you could not educate the 3,6):1,000 child, en of
whom I have spoken for a less sum than 3,2 t0,00.d. a-year.
Bat that sum might be contributed in various ways—by
subscriptions, by school-pence, by charitable donation, by
endowments, and by rates. It is not a large sure as com-
pared with the sum. given by foreign countries for this oh•
ject, or as compared with the greatness of the object in
view. I have now stated what I think is the best plan for
a system of general education. If a bettar can be adopted
let it be adopted, but I do" hope that ore king the legate-
lature will undertake to deal with the subject of national
education, and not allow religious differences or financial
considerations to standin the way of raising the religions,
moral, and political character of this country. and that
some such plan as I have indicated will ore long be adopted.
(" Hear, hear," and cheers.) •
Mr. HENLEY said he felt oertain the house would agree