The Sun.
London, England, 1860-02-25 00:00:00

The absolute absolute repeal of the paper duty would take place
within a month or two after the Ist July.
COLONIAL CHAPLAINS.
Sir J. PASINGTON asked the Under Secretary of
State for the Colonies, whether her Majesty's Government
had decided to advise the Queen to v Itahold the royal
assent from the bill lately salaries of
the Leg:slature of
Tasmanir, , for reducing the salaries of the colonial chap-
lains.
Mr. C. FORTESCUE said that the Crown would take
the steps necessary in reference to the matter.
PRISONS' ACT (SCOTLAND).
Mr. E. CRAUFURD asked the Lord Advocate what
course he intends to pursue with regard to the Prisons' Act
(Scotland) Continuance Bill ; and whether he would under-
take to introduce a general bill to abolish the Prison Board,
and to amend the present system of prison auessmcnts in
Scotland, at a period sufficiently early to ensure its being
dealt with during the present session ?
The LORD ADVOCATE said that he intended to pro-
ceed with the Prisons Act (Scotland) Continuance Bill,
and also with the Prisons Assessments Bill at an early
period.

WINE AND SPIRIT DUTIES.
In answer to a question by Mr. DUNCOMBE,
The CHANCELLOR of the EHCHEQUER said it was
his intention to propose the duties on wine in the terms of
the resolution he had laid on the table. He would take the
duties on spirits immediately after; and these would be,
on foreign spirits, exclusive of rum, Bs. 3d. ; on rum, whe-
ther foreign or colonial, Bs. 3d. ; and the duty upon British
spirits of all descriptions would be at the rate of Bs. ld., and
that would be maintaining the same difference which at
present existed.
THE GOVERNMENT AND THE POPE.
Mr. M'EVOY asked the Secretary of State for Foreign
Affairs whether the Government had proposed to the French
Government, that in the event of the revolted provinces of
the Pope declaring their wish to be annexed to Sardinia,
the two Governments in concert should bind themselves to
offer no objection to the entrance of Sardinian troops, by
which the Holy Father might be despoiled of those portions

of his dominions•
PERSONAL EXPLANATION.
Mr. C. BRUCE entered into a personal explanation of
the conduct of Lord Elgin when in China, and deplored the
misunderstanding which unhappily took place between him
and Admiral Sir Michael Seymour.
Lord J. RUSSELL said further discussion was not de •
sizable until all the papers were before the house. He could
only say that the Government had the fullest confidence in
the honour of the noble earl, and that at such a distance of
time the different impressions on the minds of Lord Elgin
and Sir M. Seymour implied no discredit to either. As to
the recent proposals with regard to the settlement of Italy,
he did not regret having made them, and would be happy
if he could contribute to that object. It was his intender'
to introduce the Reform Bill next Thursday.
THE COMMERCIAL TREATY WITH FRANCE.
In reply to Sir H. WILLOUGHBY,
Lord PALMERSTON—The course which the Govern-
ment proposes to follow is that which I had the honour of
explaining to the house on a former occasion. It is our in-
tention to propose in committee of Customs, resolutions
bearing on all the articles enumerated in the treaty which
relate to changes in the Customs' laws, and as soon as the
house shall have adopted, or disposed of those resolutions,
which by referring to the laws of Customs have a direct
bearing upon some of the engagements of the treaty, it is our.
intention, without going further into the financial arrange-
ments which we intend, to propose to the consideration of
the house an address to the Crown, approving of the treaty
in its aggregate; and, of course, the address will be com-
municated to the House of Lords for the purpose of obtain-
ing a joint address from the two branches of the Legisla-
ture on the subject of the treaty.
THE CHAMPIONSHIP OF ENGLAND.

In reply to Mr. HADFIELD,
Sir G. C. LEWIS said his attention had been celled
some time ago to the intended belligerent encounter be-
tween the two mentioned redoubted champions. (Laughter.)
Sir Richard Mayne would no doubt take care to obtain in-
formation on the subject, and he dared say, be able to pre-
vent the encounter within the limits of the metropolitan
police. (Cheers and laughter.)
ILLEGAL MARRIAGE.
Mr. COLLINS asked if the attention of the Home Sec-
retary had been called to a marriage which had taken place
in the month of December last, at Registrar's Office at
Shrewsbury, between a woman and her deceased husband's
brother—(laughter)—and whether it was the intention of
the Government to advise a prosecution against the man
for perjury, which he had committed in making the usual
declaration' that no impediment existed to the marriage, on
the ground of affinity or other relationship ?
Sir G. C. LEWIS said his attention had been called to
the marriage, but he had come to the conclusion that there
was no sufficient ground why the Government should make
it the subject of a prosecution, or take it out of the hands of
the local authorities.
EXPORTATION OF COAL TO FRANCE.
Mr. HORSM AN gave notice that, on Monday, he
should move that an address be presented to her Majesty,
praying that a communication might be made to the
Emperor of the French, requesting his assent to the omis-
sion of the 11th article of the treaty. Ho should, at the same
time, ask whether her Majesty's Mininsters had lately been,
as was currently reported, communicating with the Empe-
ror of the French for the purpose of obtaining a modifica-
tion of that article of the treaty. It would be satisfactory
to learn whether there was any truth in that rumour.
The motion for the adjournment of the house at its rising
to Monday was then agreed to.
THE BUDGET.—ADJOURNED DEBATE.
The order of the day for the resumption of the adjourned
debate having been read,
Mr. NEWDEGATE said that the point to which he
meant in the first instance to address himself was one well'
worthy the attention of the house. The house would find in
the 11th article of the treaty that it did not coincide with the
noble lord's instructions to Lord Cowley and Mr. Cobden.
Their instructions were to the effect that on the side of
France there was to be a transition from prohibition and
high duties to duties of a moderate amount, and on that of
England the total abolition of all fiscal charges on French
productions. Those instructions were clear enough ; the
Emperor of the French removed the prohibition on 43 heads
leaving a duty of 30 per cent. ; but it should be observed,
that he limited his indulgence exclusively to English pro-
duce, whilst we bound ourselves to admit on similar terms
the productions of every country. The Emperor could thus
go to continental countries and say, " Don't trouble your-
selves to enter into any negotiations with England ; I have
obtained conditions in this treaty under which all your pro-
duce will enter the ports of England, whilst you will not be
saddled with the engagements into which I have entered."
He (Mr. Newdegate) contended that instead of this they
should have limited their concessions to the produce of
France. It was ti se that France made great concessions
and was following in the footsteps of the late Sir Robert
Peel ; but we made deficiencies, and relieved luxuries, by
increasing the burdens of the great body of the people.
What France gave up was the concession of the rich man ;
while we parted with the widow's mite. It was a jealous, a
bigoted, and an insane hatred of protection which had dic-
tated the terms of the treaty. Some of the remissions would
operate with great injury on the employment of women, for
whom it was extremely difficult to find occupation in this
country. This blind adherence to a system that would
have such results, reminded him of the poet—
" Man, to man so oft unjust,
Is always so to woman."
In answer to the appeal of Mr. Bright, he admitted
that his opinions on free trade were modified—(hear, hear)—
but he would never consent to a measure which tended to
narrow the field of female employment in this country. He
would not now re-impose the corn laws if he could—(hear)---
because he had seen the evil use that might be made of du-
ties imposed on articles of necessity. It was proposed to re-
tain the duties on tea, sugar, malt, and hops. Was not the
speech of Mr. Bright a clear indication that unless the de-
fences of the country were neglected, an agitation would be
set on foot against the remaining excise duties ? This was
but the commencement of a danger to the revenue, which
former experience taught that it would be difficult to avert.
It was all very well for Mr. Cardwell to quote Adam Smith;
but Adam Smith upheld the navigation laws ; and where
were they? (A laugh.) Some members who were loudest
in their advocacy of free trade in that house, out of that
house condemned the members as a parcel of tax-eaters,
who lived on the sweat of the people. To hear these men
speak of the benefits of free trode, one would suppose that
they thought it made the sun to shine and the rain to fall.
From M. Magne's report to the Emperor it appeared that
while our imports from France in five years had amounted
to fifty-five millions, our exports to that country had only
been twenty-six millions. What was the reason of this ?
That France was drawing the bullion from this country ;
and the result was to render the revenue of France elastic,
and ours the reverse. Much had been said about the in-
crease of our trade with America; but that was greatly due
to Californian gold. The years prior to 1850 were highly
prosperous ; but the country then began to feel the pinch
of free trade, which was, however, mitigated by the disco-
very of gold in California and Australia. In 1853 the pro-
duction of gold in California had risen to seven and three
quarter millions, and in Australia to nearly ten millions. It
was this influx of gold that had prevented the free-trade
measures from operating more injuriously than they had
done. And yet the Chancellor of the Exchequer had
omitted all notice of this fact, and attributed our increasea
prosperity solely to free trade. The hon. member for Bir-
mingham had plainly declared that he would have twelve
millions off the estimates and would dolall in his power to
s a
co i e a the
measures
sfeudal
which system.
This abolish indirect taxation,and levy all taxes on real property.
wouldo n n
be tore-establish
not ntn uinvolvedSthureeselythe
house w
con-
sequences, and the early results of hw ic were deprecated
by all, as injurious to the revenue •
, and as depriving us of
the sinews of war. (Hear, hear.)
When the lion. gentleman sat down about 20 members
simultaneously rose, chiefly on the Government side, and
their anxiety to catch the attention of
the Speaker caused
considerable merriment.
Mr. BRIGHT, who claimed to be heard in explanation,
was called on, and said—l beg to explain for one moment.
I understood the hon. gentleman to say that I wish too.
so much taxation as ho has described upon real property, plaee
that is, upon the land and buildings of the country. That
never was my intention. I never made any such proposi-
tion. I never proposed to lay any taxes upon that descrip-
tion of property which I did not propose to lay upon all
other property or wealth, whether in connection with land
or trade.the lion.
Mr. NEWDEGATE— assure . gentleman that
I would Pot willingly have misrepresented him,
Mr. B. OSBORNE said that if Mr. Newdegate had not
solemnly assured the house that ho had modified his opinion
difficulty in discovering the
they would have had some
•
fact. (Hear, hear.) He had raised the self • same objec-
tions against free trade in 1847 as he had done Nis's. He
even recollected that the hon. member then came forward
particularly as the Protectionist frien I of the ladies. He
warned the house in those solemn tones which the house
had heard again that evening, as to the effect of what they
were going to do upon the ladies.- Me had not forgotten the
women of England that night ; he had not modified his
opinion with ressird to them. (" Hear, hear," from Mr.
Newdegate, followedb by a laugh.) He also spoke in 1847
of the effect of the import of gold from Australia upon free
trade, and in. that respect also there had been no modifica-
tion of his opinions. In fact, he might congratulate the
hon. member on being the only consistent Protectionist in
that hous^ and he would add that, however they might
differ from 'him, they had no right to be surprised at his
opinions, and must all honour him for his consistency and
straightforwardness. (Cheers, from both sides of the house.)
They had however aright to express surprise at the sentiments
enunciated by a right lion. gentleman who was one of the
first converts to, and apostles of, free trade—he referred to
the speech of the right hen. member for Portsmouth (SirF.
Baring) on the previous night. (Hear, hear.) That right
hon. gentleman bad indeed somewhat modified life opinions,
as appeared from his criticisms on the commercial treaty
with France. Now, with reference to that treaty he must
say that the more it was scrutinised the less objection could
be made on the part of free traders to its provisions.
(Cheers.) lie
could
understand objections to the old com-

inviiE S

hriettiheveti-ebautyt
was elates! ed into with France, would not this country be at
mweargetihalistrte:ja.otiaet;
ryseohtigactiwv were
(nHt
ohneri. r.)
n it urt
he ro
ge s t
liberty to deal on the same terms with every nation in En-
os if all tb .e silks were to proceed and all the
era yons,
• field of competi-
rope ? (ID ear, hear.) Hon. gsutlem,, en argued, this question
wides fror a Bordeaux, whereas in fact tne _ s
tion was .to be open to all the world. (Hear, dear.; The
right hen.. gentleman (Sir F. Baring), a former Chancellor
of the Es:chequer, influenced perhaps, by that feeling which
prompted osch a person to criticise the budgets of succeed-
ing Chanceh'‘ers of the Exchequer in an envious spirit—
(laughter)—std, " Whatever may be the merits of this
treaty France at all events has got the best of the bargain."
Why he (Mr. Osborne) denied that there had been any
bargain in the case. If Mr. Cobden were liable to the sus-
picion of having wade a bargain in this treaty, his conduct
ought to be condemsned on that aceount. There was, how-
ever, in fact no bargssin with France. But were they to be
so fanatical in their love of free trade as to refuse to assist
France in taking off prohibitory duties, from a pedantic ad-
miration of the doctnnas of free trade. (Hear, hear.) Adam
Smith had been somewhat sneered at by the hon. member for
NorthWarwickshire. [Mr. ISTEWDEGATE : "I did not sneer
at him. "1 Well, at all events the hon. gentleman had rather
patronised Adam Smith. (Laughter.) He would quote a
passage of that author which showed that the right hon.
gentleman the member for Portsmouth understood rather
imperfectly the doctrines of free trade whenhe talked about
" the best bargain!' Writing about commercial treaties and
especially about commercial treaties with France, Adam
Smith said—" The disinclination of foreign governments to
enter into commercial treaties on a footing of reciprocity
has been urged as a reason why we should not admit their
commodities into our markets. It is true that the French
Government have by au unwise regulation prohibited the
introduction of English cottons and hardware into France,
thus forcing their own subjects to purchase inferior articles
at a higher price. This is aline of conduct that ought to be
carefully avoided and not followed. Because the French
Government makes its subjects pay an artificially (miaowed
price for cottons and hardware. there is no reason why the
English Government should injure its subjects by making
them pay an enhanced price for their wines, brandies, and
silks. To act thus is not to retaliate on the French, but on
ourselves ; it is erecting the blind and brutal impulses of
revenge into maxims of state policy." (Hear, hear.) He
admired this treai,y because, in conformity with.the doctrines
of f"ee trade, it was a step towards the removal of the pro-
hibitory system of France, and because he hoped the result
of Mr. Cobden's exertions wonldbe that that system would
ultimately be removed altogether. Now he was very sorry
to hear the hon. member for Warwickshire the other night
endeavouring to get upon anti-Gallican feeling on this sub-
ject by talking of the treaty as a submission to France.
The hon. member had indeed in that respect been rather
imitated by the right hon. gentleman the member for Stroud
(Mr. Horsman), who had come out this session as a whig
of the year 1787. (Laughter.) If they turned to the debates
of that period they would nd a speech of a Whig of the
same kidney, if he might use that expression, as the right
hon. gentleman; he referred to the speech of suspected
author of " Junius," Sir Philip Francis, who was a re-
markably good-natured man. That gentleman drew a
fearful picture of whatwas to happen if Mr. Pitts proposal
to adopt the French treaty were carried. He conjured up all
sorts of evils ; he talked about submission to France being
such as the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Herman) had done;
and he concluded by saying that if the treaty were adopted
the people of this country would be "civilised out of their
virtues and polished out of their capital." (Laughter.)
Now he (Mr. B. Osborne) deplored this new attempt to work
upon the prejudices of the eountry. He might say of this
treaty—
" It is twice blessed,
It blesseth him that gives and him that takes."
(Cheers.)' He felt satisfied that if the provisions of the treaty
were carried out there would spring up a good understand-
ing between the people of this country and the people of
France, which would eventually enable Parliament to cut
down the present monstrous expenditure in the army and
navy, which was creditable neither to the house nor to the
country. (Hear.) The answer to all this rhodomontade--
for such it really was—about submission to France was very
forcibly pointed out on the previous night by the hon. mem-
ber for Birmingham (Mr. Bright). That hon. gentleman
observed that, while the value of their exports to America
was £22,000,000, the value of those sent to France—their
next neighbour, nearer than Ireland herself—was only
£5,000,000; and yet her Majesty's Government were blamed
for entering into a treaty the carrying out of which would
tend to do away with that anomaly. (Hear.) He wanted
to know why their trade with France should not be as great
as their trade with America. Mr. Pitt and Adam Smith
both thought there was no valid reason why it should not
be so. Now great exception had been taken, particularly by
the right hon. member for Stroud, to the 11th article of the
treaty, relating to coal. The right hon. gentleman had in-
voked the sympathy of the country by remarking that the
supply of coal was not likely to last more than 300 years. Ho
(Mr. B. Osborne) would not enter into that question at
length, but he believed the right hon. gentleman was geolo
gically wrong. (Hear.) Ho had only taken into account the
Newcastle coalfield; he had left out South Wales altogether.
(Hear, hear.) He knew that many persons had shared in
the alarm felt on this subject. The late Mr. Warburton,
for example, who was a member of this house, had quite a
monomania on the subject—his opinion that the supply of
coal would not last long being so strong that he even denied
himself a fire. (Laughter.) B e hoped the right hon. gen-
tleman (Mr. Horsman) would not allow his apprehension to
carry him so far as t at. (Renewed laughter.) But the
right hon. gentleman went further. He tried to make out
that the one object of the French government in entering into
the treaty was to lay up enormouse stores of coal for its steam
fleet. Was he not aware that it would be almost impossible
to do so, because—to say nothing of waste—there would be
great danger of spontaneous combustion ? (Hear, hear.)
After all, this was a mere bugbear. (Hear, hear.) The
letter of M. Chevalier must have carried conviction to the
mind of every one who had read it, and shown that this
objection was not well founded. Without this treaty the
Emperor of the French could obtain as much coal as he
wished for. But now, what would be the effect of striking
this article about coal out of the treaty ? The point was
very ably put by a coalowner, who remarked that the effect
of the change would be to render the French Government
dependent to such an extent on English coal that any in-
terruption of the supply must be attended with the most
disastrous results to the navy and commercial marine of
France. The truth was that coal was now made to serve
much the same purpose that corn did during the free-trade
I struggle. He now came to the wine duties. The right
hon. member for Portsmouth scoffed at the notion of re-
ducing those duties, observing that nobody cared about a
reduction, and that the only petitions on the subject were
petitions against a new class of persons being allowed to
sell wine. Why, the right hon. gentleman ought to have
reflected that that was a licensed victu:ller's cry, and that
when Parliament was interfering with a large interest
like that it was natural that they should not care about
the introduction of the general use of wine, but desire
the people to stick to the old black strap and adulterated
beer. (Laughter.) The right hon. gentleman said the re-
duction of the wine duties had never led to any sensible in-
crease: of the revenue—instancing, especially, Lord Al-
thorp's reduction in 1831. Did' the instance thus given
bear out the argument of the right hon. gentleman r In
1831 Lord Althorp lowered the duty on French wine from
7s. 3d. to ss. 9d. What was the result of that change?
Before the reduction the duty produced £77,000 in a cycle
of ten years, afterwards it produced £110,500. Reductions
of duty had, he believed, in every instance led to a corre-
sponding increase in the consumption. He maintained
that the wine duties were, to use the words of the present
Chancellor of the Exchequer on a former occasion, "a
scandal to our tariff." They kept our products out of nine-
tenths of the markets of Europe, and they ought to be re-
duced not merely on financial but also on sanitary and
atTiohna.t was because theyon low-classedhad
moral grounds. Hon. gentlemen opposite said that wine
wexascesasie luxury.as(made t t onew wines
be
sy
amounted to 250 per cent., while that on high-classed wines
was only 25 per cent. on the value. Thus, having made it
impossible for the poorer classes of this country to purchase
wine, hon. members turned round upon them, and said they
did not want it because it was a luxury. (Hear, hear.)
This objection was very well answered in the report of Lord
Chelsea—a report which he may say did that noble lord
great honour, and fully justified the late Chancellor of the
Exchequer for having platted him in the position that he
did. (A Member—" He was recalled.") He (Mr. B.
Osborne) thought the noble lord was very ill-treated in that
respect, and had a motion been brought forward to that
effect he would have supported it. Lord Chelsea pointed
out in his elaborate report that in the seventh century
wheaten bread was a luxury, and gave convincing proofs
that it was by a system of excessive taxation that wine had
had been made one. (Hear, hear.) In the year 1689 so
great was the taste for French wines that an act of Parlia-
ment was passed to prohibit any commerce with France for
three years, it being declared in the act that the demand fur
French wines was so great that it had injured the revenue
of the country. In M'Culloch's "Commercial Dictionary"
there was a very curious account.of the effect of the Methuen
treaty in 1703 in changing the tastes of the people. He be-
lieved that if the wine duties were reduced to the extent
proposed there would be an enormouss trade in French
wines. No one could rise from the perusal of the report of
the committee on import duties which sat in 1852 without
feeling satisfied that many great benefits would be derived
by this country:from a reduction of the duties onwino. Mr.
Cyrus Redding, in speaking of the beneficial effect as re-
garded shipping, gave it as his opinion that the result of a
reduction of the duties would be that whereas there were
now employed in the wine trade 120 vessels of 250 tons
each, there would be employed 600 vessels of 500 tons each.
What would be the effect of the proposed reduction on the
tastes of the artisan ? They all deplored the excessive use
of spirits and other strong drinks. What was the evidence
of Mr. Barker, one of the largest licensed victuallers in
London? Ile said—" I sell over the counter in glasses a
pipe and a half of port per week. I find that there is a
growing taste for wine, and I believe that if the duties were
reduced the consumption would be doubled." Another
witness, Mr. Short, said that he sold two pipes and a half
of wine per week on draught—port, sherry, and bucellas.
He was, asked whether he drew champagne and claret, and
he replied, " Yes, from the bottle." He went on to say that
he charged 4d. a glass for port, 7d. for champagne, and 6d.
for claret. He added, " The duty is so high on French
wines that I cannot sell them as I could wish; if the duty
were lower, people would prefer them to port. Artisans of
all sorts take their glass of wine; Irish labourers frequently
carry home a bottle of port to their families." (Laughter.)
" I niay remark," he said, " that the taste for port is de-
creasing, and its use is most prevalent among Irish
labourers." (Great laughter.) He (Mr. li. Osborne) was
at first puzzled to discover why the taste for port was de-
creasing, but he afterwards perceived that it was owing to
increased adulteration. It was calculated that not less
ihan £400,000 had been lost to the revenue in one year
owing to the adulteration arising from high duties.
(Hear, hear.) Let the house observe what was the compo-
sition of the port which Irish labourers took home. In the
evidence of Mr. Basquet he found a receipt for making
port, showing what an effect high duties had •
in poisoning
the people. That receipt was as follows : ‘. Take cider, 45
y, 6
gallons; brandy, gallons; port, 8 gallons'—there was a
little port in it—(laughter)—" ripe
sloes, 2 gallons. Stew
the latter in two gallons of water. Press
the liquor. If
the colour does not tomeout
off
strong enough add tincture
of red sanders: When bottled put in each bottle tincture
of catechu, when you will produce a fine crusts, appearance
(Laughter.) Soak the end of the corks in decoction of
Brazil wood and alum, which will give it a fine appearance
of age." (Renewed laughter.) This was the thing called
port—this was the stuff which poor Irish labourers took
home in a bottle, and he supposed no one but an Irish la-
bourer would get over such a decoction (Great laughter.)
All this adulteration was encouraged by the excessive:rate
of the wine duty. (Hear.) Mr. Pitt complained long ago of
the great loss • to the revenue which the high duty on wines
caused to this country. He (Mr. Osborne) believed that
loss was nearly double now. Something might be said as
to the use of wine among the sick poor, and that was a very
important consideration. So far from this being an unite.-
.porfant matter, as it was represented by the right hon. ba-
ronet the member for Portsmouth to be, he thought it was
of the greatest importance not only to the health, but to
the morals of the people of this country. (Hear.) He was
surprised to hear the hon. member for the King's County
say the other night that this was the worst budget for Ire-
.