The Sun.
London, England, 1860-08-17 00:00:00

NATIONAL EDUCATION (IRELAND) GRANT.

Mr. CARDWELL, in rising to move for a vote of
£270,000, for the united national educational system of
Ireland, said the vote showed an increase of about £21,000
over the vote of the preceding year, and without going too
much into detail he might say that £17,000 of that sum
was to provide improved provisions for local teachers in
Ireland. He pointed out how much greater the results
were which were obtained for the sum voted for education
in Ireland, as compared with the much larger sum voted
_ _

for England. There had been an increase in the number
of schools, which was 88, and that of scholars 3,112 ; while
the total number of children educated was 570,000. The
right hon. gentleman then adverted at some length to the
question raised by the advocates of separate instruction,
especially dwelling on the opinion expressed by that section
of the Established Church in Ireland which declined to
participate in the system of national education, and by that
body of the Roman Catholic Church which was represented
in the memorial to the Irish Government praying for a
separate system ; and he argued strongly in favour of the
general plan.
Mr. MAGUIRE called the attention of the house to the
memorial addressed by the catholic archbishops and bishops
of Ireland to her Majesty's Government on the necessity of
substituting a separate or denominational system of educa-
tion for the existing system, to the answer given to that
memorial on the part of the Government, and to the re-
joinder of the archbishops and bishops to that answer, and
at length objected to and criticised the system of national
education, showing by extracts from the books that the
whole tendency of the instruction was towards Protestanism.

Mr. V. SCULLY rose at half-past one o'clock to state
that he intended to move, and should at the proper time
move, that in the opinion of the house all funds provided
by Parliament for public education in Ireland should be so
administered as to banish all just suspicion of proselytism

from the national system, and conciliate cordial co-opera-
otion from clergy and laity of all religious denominations.
As the other moiety of the representation of the county of
Cork, he could not endorse the opinion of Mr. Deasy, He
spoke at some length, and having been interrupted, said
that if due attention was not paid to him he should be

obliged still further to extend his observations. He argued
with great energy against the mixed system of education,

which he contended produced religious rancours and animo-
sities; while to say it was a success in Ireland was an out-
rage on the understanding and experience of Irishmen.
Mr. DEASY replied with some warmth to the charges
brought by Mr. Maguire.against the Commissioners, and
read the rules they laid down for instruction in mixed
schools, contending that they had never in practice deviated
from them. Referring to the memorial of the Roman Ca-
tholic prelates of Ireland, he maintained that they claimed
nothing less than the entire and exclusive control and di-
rection of the education of the laity, and he asked whether
the house or the public would accede to such a demand,
which was sot admitted in Roman Catholic countries. No
Government would ever accede to it, and Parliament could
not do so without parting with its legitimate authority. As
a Catholic, he differed from the views of those who desirdd
the separate system contemplated by the Catholic prelates.
He believed that it would be impossible to obtain the con-
sent of Parliament to the grant of public money for schools
constructed upon such a system, or to obtain sites for
schools from which Protestants were excluded. On the
other hand Protestant schools would increase, and all re-
strictions upon proselytism would be removed. He sug-
gested other objections to the change, for which he insisted
there was no reason. Not a single instance of proselytism
had been alleged, and lie deprecated the change as injuri-
ous to the interests of Roman Catholics, as one to which
the Roman Catholic laity were not favourable, and which*
appeared in the unpopular shape of the authoritative de-
mand of an ecclesiastical synod.
Mr. O'FERRALL complained first Mr. Deasy had ca-
lumniated the prelates of the Church to which he belonged,
who had admitted that the State had a right to control the
expenditure of the money granted by Parliament. He had,
he said, been an ardent supporter of the National system at
the beginning; but the changes made in it had altered its
character and poisoned the boon of education.
Mr. BRADY contended that the Roman Catholic popu-
lation of Ireland were not favourable to the National system.
Mr. C. FORTESCUE said he was surprised to hear the
National system attacked by Irish members—a system
which had had the happy effect of converting Ireland
from one of the worst educated to one of the best edu-
cated countries in Europe. The result of adopting the pro-
posed change would be to substitute two or three bad schools
instead of one good one, and to give an impulse to the mis-
chievous action of proselytism.
Mr. HENNESSY observed that the National sys-
tem was opposed not only by the Irish Roman Catholics,
but by the great majority of the Protestant bishops of Ire-
land. He defended the Roman Catholic bishops, who, he
contended, had only asked for the English system. Some
branches of education,—history, for example,—could not be
taught under the existing mixed system. The separate
system had been tried in Ireland with success.
Lord FERMOY was glad that Mr. Cardwell and Mr.
Deasy had spoken out, as it was important to the well-being
of Ireland that there should be no mistake as to the views
of the Government upon this subject. Although the Ro-
man Catholic hierarchy of Ireland were opposed to the Na •
tional system, it was, he said, deceiving the house and the
country to pretend that a majority of the Roman Catholic
laity, of the middle and educated classes, were not in favour
of the mixed system. If there were faults of detail in the
system, the rational course was to correct them, not to sub-
vert the principle. In the exceptional state in which Ire-
land was, a change of the mixed system would range the
population in two hostile camps.
Mr. MONSELL confessed that the National system was
a great blessing to Ireland ; but unless the system was
brought back to what it was originally intended to be, it
could not, in his opinion, be maintained. The State, with
reference to Catholics, had not been perfectly honest ; prin-
ciples had been sacrificed to conciliate the Protestants.
The O'DONOGHUE said the question was whether the
children of the Catholics of Ireland were to be educated as
they wished, or as the Government determined.
Mr. SCULLY thought the original system had been de-
parted from.
Lord PALMERSTON said,—l do not rise to enter into
any arguments upon the question, or to add to the conclu-
sive reasonings of my right hon. friend the Attorney-
General for Ireland. I think that his arguments ought to
be conclusive to the mind of every Roman Catholic gentle-
man who wishes to see the children of Roman Catholics in
Ireland efficiently educated. The hon, member has, I
think, very unjustly charged my right hon. friend with
vituperating the Irish Roman Catholic Bishops. Now, I
am sure he very carefully guarded himself :from saying
anything which could bear that construction. 4leexpressly
said that ho felt for them all that veneraticitYand esteem
which they merit, and he directed his rein-arks to those
differences of opinion which exist even in Roman Catholic
countries between the clergy and laity on the subject of
education. But I did not rise to vindicate my right hon.
friend. The noble lord the membeifor Marylebone, in the
course of his observations, said that there ought to be no
mistake as to the opinions and intentions of her Majesty's
Government upon this question of mixed education—(hear,
hear)—and the hon. member for Tipperary added that the
matter would not rest here, but that there would be agita-
tion elsewhere for the purpose of defeating the system of
mixed education. (Hear, hear.) I think it ought to be
distinctly understood that her Majesty's Government at-
tach so much importance to this system of mixed education
in Ireland, as contradistinguished from the denominational
system in England, that they would not deem it their duty
to propose any vote upon any other principle. (Cheers.)
If education in Ireland is to be carried out mainly by the
grant of public money by the State, I say that the Govern-
ment would not feel it consistent with their duty to pro-
pose a vote for any other than the mixed system. (Cheers.)
Il is asked why should a different system be pursued in
Ireland from that which is pursued in England ? (Hear,
hear.) I think the difference in religious and social feel-
ings in the two countries shows that that is an idle ques-
tion, and that, in fact, it answers itself. (Hear, hear.)
There is not the same conflict of religious opinion—there
is not the same religious agitation is England which pre-
vails in Ireland, and in my opinion it is the duty of the Go-
vernment to soothe and mitigate those feelings. (Hear,
hear.) I trust that this vote will now be allowed to be
carried. I think it has been discussed sufficiently. Those
who are most adverse to the present system do not propose
to negative the vote, and I hope that the committee will
now assent to it. (Cheers.)
Colonel DICKSON said the speech of the noble lord was
a very extraordinary one. The question was rather what
system would be acceptable to the people of Ireland than
what was acceptable to the noble lord. (Hear, hear.)
The vote was then agreed to.
SPIRIT DUTIES BILL.
This bill, as amended, was considered and agreed to.
EAST INDIA LOAN BILL.

This bill was read a second time.
PEACE PRESERVATION (IRELAND) ACT (1858)

AMENDMENT BILL.

Oa the motion for the third reading of this bill,
Mr. BLAKE moved that it be read a third time that
day three months.
The house divided :
For the third reading
Against it
The bill was then passed.
CONJUGAL RIGHTS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
This bill, as amended, was considered and agreed to.
TRUSTEES, MORTGAGEES, &c., BTLL.

On the motion of Nr. MA.LINs, the order for the second
reading of this bill was discharged, and the measure wea
then withdrawn.