The Sun.
London, England, 1860-02-14 00:00:00

LIEUTENANTS IN THE ROYAL NAVY:

Lord J. BROWNE asked the Secretary to the Admiralty
-whether any reply had been given to the memorial of the
Lieutenants of the Royal Navy presented in December last ;
whether it was the intention of the Board of Admiralty to
increase the pay and half-pay of those officers, so as to place
them more nearly on a position of equality with the Mas-
ters and the non-effective officers of the Royal Navy of the
same rank; and whether it was intended to allow their ser-
vice in the Coast Guard to count as sea time ?
Lord C. PAGET said that the Board of Admiralty had
taken into consideration the memorial alluded to, and after
mature deliberation it was not their intention to increase
the full pay of lieutenants in the Royal Navy.' With re-
gard to the half pay, when he brought forward the navy
estimates he would afford the noble lord the information he
required.
NEWFOUNDLAND FISHERIES.
Sir J. PAKINGTON asked the Secretary of State for
Foreign Affairs whether the English and French Commis-
sioners sent to Newfoundland last year to investigate the
questions so long at issue between the two G overnrnents
with respect to the fisheries have made recommendations
which are likely to be accepted by both countries, and to lead
to a final and satisfactory arrangemnaent ?
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the commissioners had made
their report, but Government was not in possesSion of such
full information in reference to tho subject as to enable
them to come to a final decision. He could not state whether
the French Government would accede to the recommenda-
tions of the commissioners.
FRENCH CUSTOMS TARIFF.
Sir S. NORTHCOTE moved an address for a copy of
the French tariff of customs duties now in force.
After a few observations on the same subject by Lord J.
MANNERS and Mr. NEADEGA.TE,
Mr. M. GIBSON said that the information required
would be supplied by the documents that would be laid on
the table of the house. Those documents would show
clearly the amount of the existing duties on Bri-
tish productions imported into France, and supply
all the necessary details to which the hon. members
referred. With regard to the differential duties specified in
the third article of the convention, these were to be consi-
dered as a part of the navigation laws in operation between
France and England. He would most willingly afford all the
information on the subject that was required by the noble lord,
but he thought it would be more desirable if the noble lord
would put his motion in a more specific form.
THE ARMY ESTIMATES.

In reply to Mr. DISRAELI,
Lord PALMERSTON said he could not tell when the
army estimates would be laid on the table.

CHINA.

On the motion for going into committee of supply,
Mr. COCHRANE rose, pursuant to notice, to call the
attention of the house to our
%relations with China. It was
desirable that the house should express an opinion as to the
instructions ;to be given to the officers now in command
there. He would not refer to the past war, which, in his
opinion, was the primary cause of the present difficulties,
nor to Lord Elgin's blue-book, except where it was essen-
tial to do so to explain the present position of affairs. He
would regard the question from the treaty of Tien-tsin.
Early in 1857 Lord Elgin was appointed special envoy to
China, but owing to the disturbances in India, he did not
arrive there till the close of 1857. The original demands in
December, 1857, were only two—first, the complete execu-
tion of treaty engagements; secondly, compensation to
British subjects for losses incurred in 1857. But most un-
fortunately in Feb., 1858, Lord Elgin took a step further,
and demanded the power of making additional demands on
tehoheveetriantiones government, and of entering.into such treaties,
understandfn agreements as might obviate future mis-
demands theirand still more unfortunately, one of the
right to have a madel on the Chinese Government was the
Pekin. That rajah Minister resident at the Court of
demandenewwas the cause of all our present diffi-
culties. Every
energy, and frankness of give full credit to the ability,
demanding
been displayed with an o ord Elgin. This energy had
Chinese Government of vigour
_against the
moat
ttone moment, and at the
of a high eivilisatlanouding from there all the gua-
ranteesnext treating them as the
own abject
o barbarians. His
frankness was shown by his opinion expressed as to
,ehien. In his despatch
the demand fur a resident Minister at3l
ota, stated that these
to Lord 3lalmesbury of October 12th
amoantediti
of
November,
been
demands in the eyes of the Chinese Government
to a revolution, and that compliance with I.ll:enitn
extorted fr9ni its fears. Again, on the sth
be wrote :—" The Chinese authorities contemplate vtlateliper-
manent residence of a Foreign Minister at the capitai with
more aversion and alarm than any other of the innovations
introduced by the treaty of Tien-tsin." He admitted that
.their apprehensions as to its effect on the people
were not altogether chimerical. The noble lord had
aaiii over and over that this demand was one which was
?nom; unpalatable to the Chinese Government, and that it
had been extorted from them through fear. The Chinese
commisk ioners had represented to him that the permanent
residence of foreign ministers at Pekin would be seriously
injurioris to China, by generating disrespect for their own
Toverm.lent in the eyes of the people. In spite o
Tf
hte at
the
condition. was insisted upon. What happened treaty

was signed on the 26th of June, 1858. Lord Elgin then
went to Japan; he returned to Shanghai ; and about the
end of January or the beginning of February, he sent a
letter to the commissioners, who resided at Shanghai, re-
questing them not to leave until his return from Canton,
where he intended going on account of some disturbance.
He went there, but most unfortunately did not return to
Shanghai ; he returned to England. He was replaced by
Mr. Bruce on the 4th of May, 1858. Lord Malmesbury's
instructions to Mr. Bruce were, that on his arrival in China
he should proceed, without a moment's delay, to Shanghai,
on his way to the mouth of the Peiho, to complete the rati-
fication of the treaty on the 26th of June. Lord Malmes •
bury said :—" The Admiral has been directed to send up to
the mouth of the Peiho a sufficient naval force; and it
would seem desirable that you should reach Tien-tsin in a
British ship of war.". The object, no doubt, was that the
vessel of war should serve as an escort, and as a matter of
dignity to the mission. There was no construction to be
put upon Lord Malmesbnry's words which- would have
justified Mr. Bruce in proceeding up the Peiho with a fleet.
But on his arrival he appeared to have been perfectly
panic-struck. He saw Russians everywhere; he eagerly
edeived all the information which reached him against the
Government of China. One authority which he quoted
was that of a Cantonese money-lender, to the effect
that the Russians wanted to sell 10,000 muskets to the
Chinese, but the Chinese would not have them, fearing
that they should have 10,000 Russians as well. (Great
laughter.) His first complaint was that the commis-
sioners remained at Shanghai—the very thing which
they were ordered to do by Lord Elgin. (Hear, hear.)
Here followed three despatches from the commissioners to
Mr. Bruce. They wrote to him, stating that they had the
greatest confidence in -Lord Elgin, and that in consequence
of having promised him to remain at Shanghai, they were
unable to proceed to Pekin in order to bring the matterto a
conclusion. Mr. Bruce then promised to give them steamers
to go to the mouth of the Peiho, but they _replied that they
had no authority to go by sea. Mr. Bruce would not grant
them any delay, and complained of their having remained
so long. Mr. Bruce himself, however, remained at Hong
liongifor a month, when he should have gone to Shanghai
in conformity with his instructions. He might therefore
have acted a little more tenderly in such a matter to the
commissioners. He now came to the most interesting, and,
he might say extraordinary part of these proceedings. 04
the 16th of June Admiral Hope arrived at the.mouth of
the Peiho. On the 20th Mr. Bruce arrived. Betvieen the
16th and 20th Admiral Hope discovered that the forts were
fortified, and that barriers had been placed across the river,
and that in fact it was not intended to allow them to pro-
ceed by the Peiho to Tien-tsin. And with some justice,
because it was admitted in Lord Elgin's own despatch that
we had no right to navigate the Peiho till after the ratifica-
tion of the treaty; When Mr, Bruce arrived, however, he
took the most unwarrantable step of ordering the admiral
to clear the river for him. He ordered him to do this on
June 21. But the admiral moat wisely delayed in giving
effect to that order, and had it not been for the attacks
which had been made upon a gallant officer, now a member
of that house (Sir M. Seymour)—(hear, hear)—he believed
that Admiral Hope would have had the good sense not to
carry out the instructions at all. On the 21st the attack
was to have commenced, but an interval having been per-
mitted to elapse, on the 25th, at nine o'clock inlthe morning,
Mr. Bruce received a despatch from one of the highest offi-
cials in China, stating that be had arrived at the
Peiho, ten miles to the north, for the purpose of treating,
and stating that he was instructed to conduct him with all
possible dignity to the Court of Pekin. Mr. Bruce
received this communication at nine o'clock in the
morning, but would the house believe that he declined to
send nine miles, making it an excuse that it was too dis-
tant, because Admiral Hope must have commenced opera-
tions. The operations, however, had not commenced till 2
o'clock, and no effort had been made by Mr. Bruce to pre-
vent the slaughter of our troops. Out of 1,100 men who
went into action, 434 were killed or wounded. Nothing
could exceed the gallantry of the officers and men engaged.
They had heard on the first night of the session of the gal-
lantry of Admiral Hope—how he shifted his flag from ship
to ship after being wounded ; and they could not refuse to
sympathise with the officers under his commanl—Vansit-
tart, Chadwell, Lemon, Heath, Fisher, and others. The
action continued until nightfall, while Mr. Bruce, who was
only nine miles distant, and was aware that the Chinese
government had fulfilled its obligations, made no effort to
stop the carnage. (Hear.) He was disposed to sympathise
deeply with any minister placed at so great a distance from
his country, but he was compelled to say that on this occa-
sion their minister had misused his authority. And how
Mr. Bruce afterwards defend his conduct ? by saying that
the Chinese abused their authority, the treachery being that
the batteries of the Chinese were masked, and that there
were gunboats on the river. Why Lord Elgin himself, be-
fore he left China, knew that the batteries were masked ; he
intimated that they were fortifying the mouths of the Peiho,
and they were justified in doing so. He might also refer
to the letter of Captain Longley, who said that it was on
our part the declaration of war was made ; that there was
no treachery on the part of the Chinese at all ; that we
knew there wore gunboats on the river ; that one of them
actually fired to warn us to withdraw our force; and
stated his opinion, that if the Chinese had opened all their
batteries at that time not one of our boats would have bean
left. (Hear, hear.) There was another matter in which
Mr. Bruce's conduct deserved to be canvassed. Mr. Bruce
stated that Mr. Ward, the American minister, who wisely
did not co-operate with him at all, was received
with insult and contumely when he went to Pekin.
Would it be believed that all this was totally imaginary ?
Mr. Ward himself states that he had been received by the
Chinese officials with the greatest respect and considera-
tion, that everything had been done to facilitate his jour-
ney to Pekin, that junks had been sent to convey him up
the river, and that the Chinese had shown a courtesy which
left nothing to be desired. Mr. Buchanan, the President of
the 'United States, bore similar testimony in his recent mes-
sage, and declared that the conduct of Mr. W and on the oc-
casion had received his entire approbation. Taking all the
circumstances of the case into consideration, he thought that
Mr. Bruce had acted in a peremptoTy. and precipitate man-
ner, and not in the spirit of a minister who wont out to
ratify a treaty of peace. (Hear, hear.) He declared war on
his own authority, and did not bear in mind the advice of
the Dule:of Wellington, that " it was not by force or vio-
lence that her Majesty's Government intended that com-
mercial intercourse should be established between this coun-
try and China, but by conciliatory measures." He should
also refer to the opinions of Mr. Consul Alcock and Mr.
Robertson on this point, who stated that the Chinese offi •
cials had shown a disposition to act in a friendly spirit.
Lord Elgiu, and Mr. Oliphant in his recent work, expressed
opinions to the same effect. Mr. Bruce again insisted on the
fact that Russian influence had been mixed up in the affair,
and that Russian guns and troops were made available by the
Chinese. So far was that from being the case, he believed
that the most excellent advice had been given by the Rus-
sian ambassador to Lord Elgin, who stated that what China
wanted in her present position was repose, and that any
harsh measures would only lead to increased difficulties and
to bloodshed. He considered that was statesmanlike ad-
vice. He believed that a palace had been prepared in Pekin
for the reception of our ambassador. If Russia, however,
had greater influence than we had, it was because Rus-
sian diplomany was conducted in a different spirit from
ours. (Hear, hear.) He should now proceed to make a
few remarks on the despatches of the noble lord (Lord
J. Russell). He believed his first despatch, of
September 26, expressed only a very qualified approval
of Mr. Bruce's proceedings and in his last despatch the
noble lord distinctly stated how he 'thought the necessity
for taking these vielentmeasures might have been prevented.
The noble lord said, that although the denial of the passage
to the capital for our ambassador might be considered evi-
dence of an unfriendly disposition on the part of the Chinese,
yet it was a matter in which Mr. Bruce might have remon-
strated without having recourse to force to clear the passage.
(Hear, hear.) In the noble lord's despatch of October,
which did him the highest honour, he expressed a strong
hope that peaceful relations might be restored to China with-
out the effusion of more blood. That was in accordance with
the passage relating to China in her Majesty's most gracious
speech from the throne. He hoped when the noble lord ex-
pressed himself so admirably he really meant what he said,
and that he did not mean it in the spirit of the old Inquisi-
tors, who, when th3y ordered a criminal for execution,
directed that he should be treated tenderly. The hon. gen-
tleman then quoted a passage from a speech which the noble
lord made in 1857, and in which he declared that the pres-
tige of England ought not to be maintained at the expense
of her reputation and honour. He asked the noble lord
now that he was in power to carry out the sentiments which
he had expressed when in opposition. After the reverses
we had experienced in China, it was indispensable that some
demonstration should be made to retrieve our position there.
He would have that demonstration great not only in its
magnitude, but also by its moderation. He did not wish by
any resolution of his to tie the hands of the executive ; he
admitted they had done all they could do under the circum-
stances. He did not think it desirable to insist upon our
having a resident Minister in China when the people and
Government of that country so strongly objected to it ; but
he asked the noble lord to state fully and clearly what were
the limits to the instructions given to the authorities in the
expedition, and whether those instructions had been carried
out. (Hear.)
- -

. ,
Sir M. SEYMOUR (who was very indistinctly heard in
the gallery) remarked that this question was a very large
one, and in the course of his duties in China the events
referred to would be found to have occupied a long period
of time, and covering many extraordinary scenes. Soon
after he took the command in China, he visited the north,
and after ascertaining that the Russian war was at an end,
he facilitated the return to theirown country of some 100 or
200 Russian prisoners. He returned to Hong Kong at the
end of the year. He was then a stranger to China. After a
delay of ten or eleven days hedetaehed the second in com-
mand to make such a demonstration as he thought would
induce the Chinese to give way. He (Sir M. Seymour) en-
deavoured to release the prisoners of the lorcha Arrow, but
he found that in consequence of the provisions of the treaty
Canton was in a similar position to four or five other cities
of mercantile resort, and' the right of entry into the city
was denied. There Was consequently no possible means of
communicating with the Chinese officials. If that right had
then existed half-an-hour's, or perhaps ten minutes' con-
versation would probably have put an end to the matter.
(Hear, hear.) He remembered reading with some surprise
what had been said in the house on the subject. It had
been stated that the question of the legal right to that search
had been doubted. Now the orders under which he acted
had been sent to this country, and received the royal assent.
They were intended to meet the requirements, not of the
Chinese alone, but of others. The Arrow lorcha was one of
a vast number of other British vessels containing a large
amount of British property. It had also been said in that
house that that vessel had no protection. But that was not
the fact. She had a right to carry the British flag, and
that ordinance gave a right to the British consul to over-
haul her papers and to renew that protection for another
year. If she had protection, then, she was regular, and if
she had not protection she became the property of the. British
Crown. It happened, however, that her papers had been
examined and found to be correct. After taking the advice of
those who were experienced in Chinese matters, he thought
it necessary to seize a Chinese vessel, which was a most dis-
tasteful duty to him. He felt he was entering upon those
operations with a nation which was not a warlike nation.
(Hear.) Ile then proceeded up to Canton and found
there a multitude of people of very menacing appearance ;
but he said to himself, " How is a man of humanity and
honour to deal with these people ?" (Hex.) He was deter-
mined to proceed with as little cruelty or slaughter of the
Chinese as he possibly could. He directed such an attack
as he thought best. He told the Commissioner of Canton
he could go over the walls of the city, and accordingly with
about three hundred men he did pass over the walls and
passed on. There were not persons wanting who said that
he
saidoutghhatt
Wtoashahvaet firede
pthaertciotyt.
aancdhbnu.srntiatnitßdont.vtinsh; boufliteehre.
(Hear, hear.) The forcing of the Canton River was a matter
of considerable difficulty ; the extreme ingenuity of the
Chineen d
raendd
the the
reason to regret.
safgeratf number of war junks, constantly
pursued ho had neveyr aonis
were,ships Happily the course he
of the river where his ships many
t hOennathtievebsanbk;