The Sun.
London, England, 1856-06-03 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, JUNE 3, 1856.

was little chance of their passing at this late period of
the session. He concurred in the opinion expressed
by the Attorney-General that Parliament would be
ready to vote whatever funds might be necessary to
carry out so important au object as the consolidation
of the statute law, provided they saw the commission
was jn earnest, but he thought they had a right toob-
ject to an estimate, the object of which appeared to be to
find a place, with a salary of 1,0001. a•year, for a friend
of one of the members of the Government. Looking
as; the antecedents of Mr. Bellenden Ker, who had been
on a previous commission, which had cost the country
50,0001. a-year without producing any results, and who
was a conveyancer, having but little experience in the
statute law, there was not much to be anticipated
from the labours of this commission. He under-

stood also that Mr. Bellenden Ker did not give his
whole time to his commission. Referring to the two or
three hundred statutes in reference to the poor-laws,
which, he said, required consolidation more than any
other, he complained that when he moved for the pro-
duction of Mr. Coode's digest, an imperfect copy bad
been sent, in which was such a mass of chaos that it
could not be printed.
Mr. BAINES denied that private friendship of the
Lord Chancellor, or any other member of the Govern-
ment, had had anything to do with Mr. Ker's appoint-
ment, and he had the authority of his noble and learned
friend for saying that, when the commission was first
constituted, Mr. Ker was a stranger to him, and that
the sole reason for selecting him was that he had exhibited
great ability as a member of the Criminal Law Commis-
Sion. It was true Mr. Ker did not give up all his time to
the duties of the commission, but he devoted half his
time to them, and • be might appeal to the hon. and
learned member (Sir F. Kelly) whether his conduct and
ability (lid not entitle him to the highest canfi-
dance ? If they looked to acts of Parliament actually
passed, he admitted that the results of the commission
were not to be spoken of, but in the work of preparation
for acts of Parliament much had been dose. They had
prepared for the consolidation of the acts relating to
debts, the laws of landlord and tenant, of masters and
servants, of prisons, of stamps, the statutes of limitation,
and bills of exchange of promissory notes. And with re-
gard to the criminal law of commission, their labours in
the way of consolidation might be classed under eight
heads—offences against the person, offences against pro-
perty, malicious injury, forgery, treason, and other
offences against the state, public offences, and general
provisions of procedure. On all these subjects bills had
been prepared, or were in course of preparation. In
addition to these, measures were under consideration,
for the consolidation of the laws relating to carriers by
land and by water, aliens and denizens, and for the
classification of the statutes. And the commissioners,
acting upon an opinion that had often been expressed in
. that house, recommended the appointment of an officer
or board to revise current legislation. With these
facts before them, he trusted that the committee would
agree with him that there was no justification for
saying that the labours of the commission had been
without result. (Hear.)
Sir F. 'KELLY expressed his concurrence in all that
had been stated by the right hon. gentleman (Mr.
Baines) with regard to Mr. Bellenden Ker, and he
could venture to say without fear of oontradiction by
any one who had attended the meetings of the Statute
Law Commission, that it would have been impossible to
carry out the objects of the commission without the as-
sistance of Mr. Bellenden Ker, who had done much out
of the scope of his own duty. His salary was paid not
only for the performance of the duties connected with
the commission, but for advising the Lord Chancellor
on all the law bills of the Government ; without such
assistance it would be impossible for the Lord Chan-
cellor to perform that part of his duty. He would now
give a short history of the Statute Law Commission, and
of what it had done. In 1853 the commission was ori-
ginally appointed by the Lord Chancellor, for the pur-
pose of attempting the arduous task of making a digest
of the statute law, and codifying the common law.
The first step taken by that commission was one towards
the consolidation of the statutes, and from what he knew
of what they had done in the year and a half that they
had been employed, had tended much to facilitate the
task undertaken by a new commission which was now
in existence ; for to a great extent they had consoli-
dated the statutes, and had made indexes of obsolete
and repealed statutes. In the early part of this year it
was thought that the time had come to determine on
some fixed and definite plan for the consolidation of the
statutes. That was a subject so vast and complicated,
that it was not to be wondered at that some time elapsed
before a plan was resolved on. In March last, at a
meeting of the Statute Lady Commission, at which the
Attorney-General and himself were present, the Lord
Chancellor asked if any one would submit a plan for the
consolidation of the statutes to the commission. The
Attornoy-Geceral and himself undertook to submit a
plan, and,in the following week his (Sir F. Kelly's) plan
was submitted to the commission, and was, he would

not say adopted, because that could not have been done
until the plan of the Attorney-General was sent in, but it
was approved, and the commission proceeded to act on
the plan, and prepared three or four bills consolidating
some of the most important statutes. The Attorney-Gene-
rai's plan waesubsecpsently submitted, and it was nearly
identical on all important points with his (Sir F. Kelly's).
The Attorney-General stated the evil which it was desired
to remedy, to the effect that the written law of this coun-
try was contained in thousands of statutes collected toge-
Thor, without order or arrangement in 40 large volumes,
forming a chaotic mews, which the life's labour of a law-
yer would not enable him to master, and which was to the
people whose rights they affected a scale I book. For
that evil a remedy had boon suegested, an I there were
good and reasonable hopes that that great work would be
;successfully performed. There were 40 volumes, averag-
ing 1,000 pages each, which constituted the statute law
of England, without order or arrangement, and some•
times ten or twelve subjects were embraced by a single
act. The object of the Statute Law Commission was
to do away with those forty volumes:, and substitute far
thern,five or six, which would contain the whole statute
law reduced into about three hundred sets ; the whole
to be classified, and each subject would be contained in
one series of acts. It was found necessary at once to
consolidate the statutes, and to take out all the obsolete,
repealed, and expired acts, Since the plan was adopted
not an hour had been lost after the assent and co-opera-
tion of the Government had been obtained. Instruc-
tions were given ti certain gentlemen to prepare bills
which would embrace the whole of the statute law, and
there ware new eleven or twelve consolidation -bills
on subjects of great importance and comnitca.tion which
had been enumerated by Mr. Baines nearly ready, and
which Would soon be laid on the table of the house. The
criminal law bad also been subdivided into eight bills,
and the whole of those had been prepared, and the whole'
of them, with the exception of one and part of another,
bad been revised by him (Sir F. Kelly), and they would
be laid on the table of the house in a few days. He hoped
this statement would satisfy the bon. member for East
Surrey, that, so far from doing nothing, the statute law
commission had done much towards the achievement of
a great national undertaking, and as a proof of it be
might say that the Sleeping Statutes Bill, introduced by
the hon. member himself, was the result of the labours

of the Statute Law Commission, and was in fact taken
so literally from a plan of theirs that some errors which
had been detected by him (Sir F. Kelly) had been
adopted by the hon. member in his bill.
Mr. W. H. WATSON said he was ready to vote the
sum required by the Government ; hut he required an
assurance that the Statute Law Commission would do
something which had not been done already. He was sur-
prised to hear the statement of his hon. and learned friend
(Sir F. Kelly) with regard to the difficulties of consoli-
dating the statutes, for, in February last, it was said
there was no difficulty in consolidation, whatever there
might be in codification. What ought to have been first
done was to haveexounged all obsolete statues, and then
begun consolidationwhen it was known what there was to
consolidate. The Smtuto -Law Commission was now
composed of eminent judges, and the very best men of
the profession ; but they were all employed in their
own business, and could not sufficiently attend to the
business of the commission. There might be one of
good head who would devote his whole time to the
matter, ailed by efficient departments, and the work-
would be better done than by the 14 members of which
the commission now consisted.

Sir F. KELLY said that his hon. and learned friend
had stated that two things ought to be done by the eom-

mission which were not done by the Statute Law Com-
miPsion. The first was the expurgation of obsolete
statutes. Now that was exactly what they were doing,
and several gentlemen were engag6d on that work. He
also asked .what the commission was doing ? Were they
clusoliciaiTii-g the statutes? The answer was that they
Were entirely consolidating the statutes, and the reult
of their labours was 17 or 18 consolidation bills, which
were now ready.

Mr. MALI-NS—with reference to Mr. Dslienden

Ker— said that gentleman would gladly give up the sa.
lexy of 1,0001. he received in the Statute Law Commis-
sion if he conid be relieved of his duties there, for they
interfered with his private practice very much to his dig-
advautage in a pecuniary point of view. Knowing, as he
did, that that gentleman performed the duty he had on-
dertaken well, he regretted that the member for East
Serrey Should make these attacks on him every year.
He (air. Matins) thought that the difficulty of dealing
with the statute law had been much exaggerated. He
knew the zeal and ability with which his hon. and learned
friend the member for East Suffolk was devoting himself
to this task, but when he considered that whatever was•
rfene mutt come t i that house to be revised, ha warned
them not to entertain ton sanguine an expectation of any
great result. That a great deal might be done he did
not deny. If there was a classification of the statutes at
the coil of each year it would be of immense advantage
to the profession and the public.
Sir EI, WILLOUGIIBY said it bad been stated that
Mr, .Bellenden Ker rendered great assistance to the
Lord Chancellor. If so, he ought to be paid for his
services in that capacity, and not for his services in an.
other. It was said that there were other gentlemen
engaged in this work. Were they paid, or were they
amateurs? He should like to know hew far this 1,9121.
was applied to the Statute Law Commission.
Mr. BOWYER did not rise to object to this vote,
but would vote willingly ten times the sum proposed if ,
this department of public business were put on a satis-
factory acrd efficient footing. The eemmission they
were told comprised 15 members, A great many of
them, however, held high judieialroffice, and had plenty
to do in their own courts. They bad one commissioner
at 1,0001. a year, a secretary at 6001., and a clerk at
1001. Why this was less than they paid for the staff of
the National Gallery.
Mr. HADFIELD said he should advise the noble lord
•at the head of the Government to dismiss the wbole
staff, for there was not the slightest hope that the gentle-
nien on this counnission, with or without Mr. Bellenden
Rer, would produce anything area ive. It was distress-
i"g to contemplate the little that was done in the
way of law reform. Thirty years had they been trying to
reForne the ecelesiaatical court, and they were As far. off

it as ever. Since 1853 they had expended 11,0001. for
attempts to consolidate the law, and nothing had been
done. He did not conceive that the work was as for-
midable as was represented, for though there were 17,000
acts of Parliament, there were only about 2,500 in force.
He trusted that his hon. friend the member for East
Surrey would go to a division.
Mr. J. G. PHILLIMORE thought that the course
they had pursued with regard to the consolidation of the
statute law was erroneous. They ought to have two or
three eminent men at the head of a powerful and effici-
ent staff, who in the course of four years would be
able to produce a good code. It was said that a
code could not pass through a deliberative assem•
bly, but the French code passed through a deliberative
assembly much more turbulent than the English Par-
liament, though there were in France almost as many
peculiar custorhs as there were provinces, while we
in England had hardly any peculiar custom save that of
gavelkind. He dil not think that Mr. Bellenden Ker
was competent to the undertaking.
Lord J. RUSSELL said there was nothing so unwise
as to profess that they were about to make a code of
their laws and not seriously to undertake the work. He
owned that in listening to this debate he could not see
that the work was much nearer completion than it was
three years ago. His right hon friend, the Chancellor
of the Duchy of Lancaster, said this commission had
been very successful. Now, in order to be successful,
it seemed to him that a commission to consolidate the
statutes must effect three different things. One was
to consolidate the statutes ably and clearly, another
was that the consolidation should become law, and the
third was that the judges should be satisfied with
such consolidation. (Hear, hear.) Now there was not
one of these tasks that was accomplished. He should
be sorry to vote against granting the sum which was to
contribute to the furtherance of this object, but he
thought it was desirable that the house should have some
prospeCt before them that the work would really be
done. The hon, and learned member for East Suffolk,
who had devoted his great talents to this purpose, and
who had devised several of these projects, let drop a
few words that were somewhat ominous, because he
said that these bills might be exceedingly useful in con-
solidating the law„ if they were supported by her Ma-
jesty's Government. Now, let them ask bow was this
task to be accomplished ? It was a task that not only
required great talents but great authority. It was by
no means a matter for despair. They knew that Sir
Robert Peel, with the assistance only of his own law-
officers and the learned gentleman who was *at that time
attached to his own office, Mr. Gregson, was enabled
to consolidate one branch of the, law. Afterwards,
when it was desirable to mitigate the criminal code, he
(Lord J. Russell) introduced into Parliament, as Home
Secretary, several bills consolidating the criminal
law, ,and he was assisted in that task by the
Criminal Law Commission. These bills were carried,
and one of the judges assured him that the judges were
satisfied with them. But then in order to do this,
they must have some minister of the crown who would
undertake the subject. He should despaig of the object
ever being accomplished if he merely saw a number of
bills thrown on the table, and it was left to any member
to suggest his own particular phraseolOgy. It was a
subject which they knew occupied the attention and
much of the time of one of the greatest men of modern
times. The Emperor Napoleon, when First Consul,
when he was governing France—when he was com-
manding an immense army, and directing his mind to
the foreign relations of France, sat in consultation from
10 or 11 in the morning till 5 in the afternoon to pro-
duce a code. Ho did not introduce the code merely of
his own despotic will, saying, "I will do so and so."
On the contrary he took men of eminence and discussed
with them the provisions of that code. After he had
done this he sent the project all over France and to
all the tribunals of France. Now, that example
might be well followed here ; reports might be
prepared by the commissioners, and afterwards
submitted to the judges for correction. In this
way each measure of consolidation would obtain the ap-
proval of men of high legal station, and then sepasate
bills founded on the different sections of the law could
be brought into Pardament by some one who should re-
present the Government, and who should, in the cha-
racter, as it were, of a Minister of Justice, be prepared
to say on behalf of the Government that they intended to
make such bills the princiral business of the session.
The bills themselves should be announced at the very
beginning of the session, and they should form such a
codification of the law of the country as would eornpste
with that of any other nation in Europe. The Govern-
ment which took that course would not fail to succeed in
the effert, while its success would be equally sure to
cover them with immortality. (Hear.)
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said the noble lord
had anticipated much of what he had intended to say on
this subject. The work of consolidating the statute law
was surrounded with great difficulties, but still those
difficulties, as far as it was possible to do so in the time,
had been grappled with by the commissioners. In a short
time the results of some of their labours would be laid
before Parliament. There was no indisposition on the
part of the executive to legis'ats on the subject, but it
was not always that oppertunities wore presented for in-
troducing such measures as these. The Government
had, however, done all that could be expected of them
in the matter; they had selected the best men to form
the commission, and the commissioners had devoted all
the time they could spare from their ordinary labours to
the important and difficult business that had been en-
trusted to them. Undoubtedly he should be glad if Pal--
limn-teat would sanction the expense and appointment of
a great functionary like that of a Minister of Justice,
whose duty it would be to look after these matters ; but
in the meantime he could assure the house they had de-
voted much zeal and assiduity to their task, and when
the fitting opportunity arrived he should be prepared to
lay on the table such a complete representation of their
labours up to the present moment as would more than
compensate the passing of this vote. (Efgar.)
Mr. L. KING could give a conclusive reason why the
committee should not agree to this vote. It appeared
from a re:urn just made that there was a balance in the
hands of the commissioners of 3,0291., and he could see
no reason why they should add to that amount.
The committee then divided, when there appeared—
For the vote
Against it
Majority —l6

The vote was accordingly agreed to; as were also
6.900/. for the Civil Service Commission, and 8,1521.
for temporary commissions.
On the question that 21,8181. be voted for fees, sala-
ries, and compensations payable under the provisions of
the Patent Law Amendment Act,
Mr. WILLIAMS observed that this was a monstrous
vote, but he more particularly objected to those items
in it which related to the payments made in respect of
patents to the law officers of the Crown in England and
Irelsnd, and the Lord Advocate of Scotland.
Mr. WILSON defended the vote, and reminded the
committee that before the existing Patent Act was passed
the fees payable upon every patent to the law officers of
the Crown amounted to 101. 103., whereas now they
were reduced to 31. 33., and the difference went into the
Treasury, to the great advantage of the public.
Mr. CHEETHAM and Mr. BLACKBURN contended that
the hon. memberhad over-estimated the advantages which
the public had gained from the change in the system.
After•sorne discussion the vote was agreed to.
13.5001. for the Board of Fisheries, Scotland.
Mr. WILLIAMS objected to the vote, remarking
that no human being could possibly allege any reason
for its continuance.
Mr. WILSON said it would not appear again, at least
in its present shape. (Rear.) The Government intended
to i4sue a commission to inquire into the state of the
fishing htirbours on the coat of Scotland. (near.)
A long einversation, principally on the surject of re-
taining. the hoard, then followed, in the course of which
Mr. Fergus, Sir A. Campbell, Mr. Davies, Mr. Blackburn,
the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and other hen, men.-
hers addressed the_conitnittee.

Mr, WILLIAMS said it had been distinctly stated
last year by the Secretary to the Treasury that this vote
should never appear again ; and on that ground it had
been consented to.

Mr. WILSON said his statement was that the boaid
would be made seffsupportiug, and, therefore, that if
the vote appeared again it would be a conditional one,
or in another shape. If the commission recommended
the abolition of the board, the vote would not be re-
qulred. If they recommended its continuance, it would
be with a view to its being made self-supporting.
Capt. P ECHELL regretted that two of her Maj a y's
ships should have been employed in so scandalous mph
on the coast of Scotland, instead of protectirg the Chan-
net fisheri CP (Hear.)
Mr. ELLICE, jun;, denied that thera was any job in
the matter. If they were to come to a foregone eonclu.
sion as to the result of the inquiry of the commission,
he saw no use in the commission at all. The matter was
one particularly affecting a large class of his constituents.
(Cries of " Hear, hear.") He admitted that what was
called the brand was quite indefensible in principle, and
could only be•kept up by an appeal ad misericordiam, to
the Legislature. The fisheries were chiefly carried on by
poor people in remote islands,: whose names were un-
known, and could not compete with those of celebrated
curers in Gla,a•ow. The•brand could only be maintalned
on the ground that it was justified by the exceptional
circumstances of the case. This fishery was a very pecu.
liar One ; it c mid only be carried on during a small por-
tion of the year, and it was most essential that a proper
police should be kept up to prevent confusion among the
boats, which would drive the fish out to 'sea, and they
would not be taken at all.
Mr. WILSON said that a considerable portion of the
vote was for the compensation of former officers; and with
regard to the branding no.further charge would be made
on the public for that.
In ans ?fel, to Mr. WALPOLr,
Mr. WILSON said that if the brand was continued
it wmid be made self-supporting.

The committee divided—
For the vote ...... . ....................... 162
Again5t.............................. 39
Maj0rity.............................. —123
The vote was then agreed to, after whichthe house
resumed.

PA ROCITIA.L SCHOOLS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
The adjourned 'debate on the second reading of this
bill was resumed by
Sir J. FERGUSSON; who said that the present bill
was different in its character from the bill of last year ;
.and though it created much apprehension in the minds
of 'cony members of the Established Church in Scot-
land, he did not share in that apprehension, and should
therefore feel himself justified in supporting the
second rearlinfr. Although the bill would effect many
changes, it would not sever the schools from the
Church. If it did that he should give the measure his
opposition. He thought it unjust and uncalled for that a
lecifie'religious test of adherence to the Established
Church of Scotland should bo required of the school-
master. The feeling of religion amongst the people of
Scotland was as strong as over,.and ..by providing that

the religious character of the schools should be main-
tained without requiring the schoolmaster to take the
test of adherence to the Established Church, he thought
they did all that could fairly be expected from them in
the present day. Great numbers of Dissenters and Roman
Catholics attended the schools, and they did not com-
plain of the religious teaching given in them. Many
persons bad a fear that if Dissenters or members of the
Free Church superintended the schools, the position of
the Established Church would be injured, but he con-
fessed he felt no such apprehension for himself. If the
learned lord would place on the face of the bill a decla-
radon that the religious superintendence of the presby-
tery should remain untouched, he believed that such a
declaration would get rid of much of the opposition of
the bill. He also considered that some provision should
be made that the heritor should not have the power
of interfering with the religious teaching of the
schools. He hoped that his hon. friends would
join with the learned lord in passing this bill,
and making it as useful as passible. He believed the time
was come for making the liberal endowments of their
ancestors as available as possible for the promotion of
education in the country. (Cheers.)
Mr. C. BRUCE said that the arguments of his hon.
friend pointed one way, whilst his vote was to go in the
opposite dile tion. His hon. aed gallant friend would
abolish the test of adherence to the E•tabliihed Church ;
but then he would require another religious test, though
of a wider character. It was not his intention to divide
the house on that occasion; but, unless what he consi-
dered to be the meet obnoxious principle of the bill were
previously expunged, he would, on the motion for going
into committee, move the committal of the bill that day
six months. Tne ninth clause appeared to him to involve
the abolition of the long-established connection between
the parish schools and the national church, and he could
not consent to the abandonment of that connection. His
hon. and learned friend (the Lord Advocate) would no
doubt deny that his object was to separate religious from
secular' education, but he (Mr. C. Bruce) nevertheless
believed that such would be the effect of the passing of
this bill. That was, in fact, the turning point of the
whole questior. If everything else were conceded, the
eencession would, in his judgment, amount to nothing.
The hen. member for Edinburgh (Mr. Black) said he
thought the learned lord should have gone a great deal
further. The hon. member referred to the High School
of Edinburgh as proving that it was not necessary to
maintain the existing connection between the parochial
schools and the Established Chureb. He forgot to state
that the school was simply a grammar school, and that
the education given in it was received chiefly by the
children of the middle and the higher classes, so that
the case of that particular school was not at all analo-
gous to that of the ordinary schools of the country, which
were frequented chiefly by the children of the poor. As
to the spirit of the age, it was a spirit which delighted
in putting down old institutions, and on this question
he eves not disposed to yield to it. He maintained
that the proposed separation between the Established
Church and the parochial schools would be a " heavy
blow and great discouragement" to the former ; and
that there was nothing to justify such a proceeding.
He had never heard of an instance in which the Free
Church bad chosen a teacher belonging to the Esta-
blished Church. Why, then, should the Established
Church be required to select teachers belonging to the
Free Church ? He believed that the immediate result of
passing the bill would be to introduce dissension and
heartburnings into all the parishes of Scotland, and that
under the operation of its provisions proper superinten-
dence would soon become impossible.
Mr. BLACK observed that in the school to which the
hon. member had just referred—the High School of
Edinburgh—religious instruction was given no less than
in the parochial schools generally of Scotland ; and he
believed that if the education were purely secular, the
school would (soon be empty. The religious character
of the system in operation there was attributable, not
to the presbytery or parochial ministers, but to the dis-
position of the parents. When the word was given by
the General Assembly, every minister got up a petition
1 in his parish, but they all represented the same body,
which had up to the present enjoyed a monopoly of the
schools, to which it clung with all the tenacity which
distinguilhes ecclesiastical corporations. There were
few petitions from the commission of supply, a body who
had oppcsed every reform. As Dr. Chalmers said,
" There were two objects that never changed—the fixed
stars and the Scotch lairds." No public meeting of any
consequence had pronounced against the bill ; and if the
monopoly was once 'got rid of, he believed that many
improvements in education would be introduced, even
by the Church itself. The convention of the burghs was
a fair representation of public opinion in Scotland. At
their last meeting a resolution was proposed approving of
the bill:in general. An amendment was moved,in favour of
maintaining the test; but on a division it was lost by a
majority of 39 to 9. The test was now a reality, for every
schoolmaster was bound to declare by a stringent oath
that he believed, and would continue to believe and up-
hold, every thing contained in the confession of faith. That
confession formed a volume of 500 pages, and he felt sure
that not one in twenty of the schoolmasters who sub-
scribed it had ever read it. The bill would not interfere
with the influence exercised by the ministers over the
religious teaching in the schools. At present they had
no power to direct the instruction ; it was the heritors
who elected the master, and decided what he should
teach. The Presbytery could not examine the candidate
as to his fitness to teach the subjects determined on by
the heritors, and their power was as limited as that of
the government eYamir era under the recent regulations
with regard to public appointment,. The Presbytery bad
power to depose a schoolmaster for immorality, but that
was rather theoretical than practical, the legal difficul-
ties in the way of enforcing it were so great. The best
guarantee they could have for religious teaching in tne
schools was to be found in the religious feelings of the
_ people of Scotland, and if left to themselves, he had not
the ,mallest doubt they would maintain the religious
feeling which at present prevailed in the parish schools.
Mr. BLACKBURN said that the burghs to which
the hon. gentleman referred had no parish schools, and
therefore their decision was of no weight. The first six
clauses of the bill, which provided far increased salaries
and improved dwellings for the schoolmasters, were un-
objectionable, and the heritore offered no opposition, but
the rest of the bill turned entirely on the question of re-
ligious teaching ; it went to destroy the connection be-
tween the church and the schools, which had lasted for
300 years. The 14, an he understood it, took away all the
power of sx unination from the Presbytery ; and, under
the 9th clause, a man might be elected who was of no
religion at all. The Lord Advocate had said his inten-
tion was to leave the religious instruction in the hands
of the Church ; but if , such was his intention it was a
pity he had not expressed it more clearly. lie objected
to the clause which proposed to divide Scotland into
districts and appoint inspectors, as degrading to the
schoolmasters, and as being similar to the proposal
of Lord John Russell for England, which was re-
jected by the house. Unless amendments were in-
troduced to remove the objections he had referred
to, and unle,© the connection between the schools
and the Church were upheld in its integrity, he should
oppose the further progress of the bill.
Mr. MACKIE also spoke against the proposed system
of inspection, which he said could never be so effectual
as the superintendence of the parochial clergyman. Ile
was in favour of opening the parish schools to all deno-
minations, and to the abolition of the tests required from
schoolmasters, beyond a simple declaration that the per-
son appointed was a Protestant.
Mr. JOHNSTONE concurred in the general objects
of the bill, but thought it went too far. Parliament was,
by the Act of Union, bound to maintain the Presby-
terian religion in Sc Aland, and for that purpose it was
essential that the schoolmasters should be Presbyterian,
and their teaching Presbyterian ; he therefore objected
to the abolition of the tests.

The LORD ADVOCATE said as they were not to
divide that he might bring the discussion to a close by
a feav explauations. Nis object by the bill was to in-
crease the salaries of schoolmasters, and to remove that
disability which prevented all but members of the Estab-
lished Church from holding these offices. lie could not
accept the compliment that had been paid to him that
this was a better bill than that of former years, for he
did not conceive it so great a step towards the improve.
ment of the education► of Scotland. Ho proposed to
abolish tests for schoolmasters. Some argued in favour
of tests that they tended to preserve the masters in the
Established Church, while others thought it was a secu-
rity for the orthodox. doc'rine of the teachers. As re-
garded the latter he was not inclined to think there was
much force in it; but as regarded the former, he could
not but think that those who supported it must think that
the. Test and Corporation Act was not repealed, and on
that point he must agree with his opponents. He denied
that he had not provided for the authority of Presbytery
being retained, and he observed by the various clauses that
although the jurisdiction of the Presbytery was in some
respects altered, it was retained. Again he denied that
the bill abolished the condition that schoolmasters should
profess any such a test of admission to office, for
no such construction could be put on the clause which
had been so misconstrued. He urged that the bill as it
stood afforded full security for religious teaching, but if
it was thought necessary to strengthen this security by.
any additional words to the clauses he should have n)
objection, but he must sal express his strong opinion
against anything approaching to a test. He should, how-
ever, be prepared to meet the wishes of hon. members in
a spirit of fairness and candour.

Sir A. CAMPBELL complained that the bill con-
tained no positive enactment with regard to what was
orthodox religious teaching and how the presbytery was
to he enabled to decide on that point.
Mr. F. SCOTT inquired in what way the jurisdiction
of the presbytery was to be put in motion, for no provi-
sion with that view appeared to him to exist in the bill.
He trusted that if there was to be no test, the jurisdic-
tion of the presbytery could be so formed as to leave it
much as it now was: He wished to know how long a
time would be given for the consideration of the bill be-
fore it was brought forward for committee ?
After a few .words from Mr. G. DUNDAS and Mr.
LOCKHART. the bill was read a second time.
EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) BILL.

On the motion for the second reading of this bill,
Mr. HADFIELD opposed the proceeding with it at
that boar. five minutes to 1 o'clock.
Mr. C. BRUCE trusted the second reading would not
be pressed. It was a bill for establishing in all towns of
Scotland secular schools supported by rates, a principle
which was rejected by the house in the resolutions on
education proposed by Lord J. Russell.
Mr. HADFIELD moved the adjournment of tha de.
bate.

Mr. A. UASTIE seconded it, saying thatadvantage
had been taken of the Scotch members. _ _

The LORD ADVOCATE would not object to the
motion, but denied that he had taken any advantage.

JOINT STOCK COMPANIES BILL.
On the motion for the third reading of this bill,
Mr. SPOONER objected to go on with it, as there
were several amendments to be made in the bill.

Mr. LO WE said the amendments were of 4-u-th na•

tun as to meet the views of hon. members, and there
was no opposition to them. It was important that the
bill should go to another place as soon as possible.
Mr. SPOONER moved the adjournment of the debate,
but did not press it to a division ; and
The bill was read a third time.
The added clauses were then inserted in the bill.
Mr. HENLEY moved that clauses 46, 47, and 43 be
struck out. The clauses related to the appointment of in-
spectors by the Board cf Trade to look into the accounts
and ascertain the insolvency of companies. Such a duty
as that ought to be left to the parties immediately con-
cerned, and not imposed on a public office.
Mr. LOWE said these clauses had been taken from
the New York Act, and upon consideration they were
thought to be the best that could be adopted for accom-
plishing the purpose in view. All the Board of Trade
would have to do would be to appoint, under certain cir-
cumstances, an impartial person to inspect the accounts.
The Board would not be responsible for what was done
afterwards. It very frequently happened that the parties
who suspected wrong in the management of companies
were in the minority, and they had power of averting
ruin or procuring a beneficial change in the management
of the concern. For instance, long before the stoppage
of the Tipperary Bank, there were shareholders who sus-
pected that all was not right, but they had no power to
interfere, and ruin ensued, whereas had there been such
a law in existence as these clauses would establish, much
of the subsequent mischief would have been averted. It
would be observed that the report of the inspector need
not be made public, unless the Board of Trade 'thought
it desirable for the public interest.
Mr. NE WDEGA.TE strongly objected to the creation
of such a secret tribunal as that which these clauses con-
templated.

Mr. WHITESIDE also pointed out objections to the
clauses, and urged their withdrawal.
Mr. WALPOLE observed that practically these
clauses would make the Board of Trade responsible for
the solvency of the companies. Now that, in a public
point of view, would be highly objectionable ; but if
such a power were to be exercised, it should only be at
the request of a public meeting of the shareholders, and
not at the instance of a mere discontented minority.
Mr. LO WE protested that the operation of the clauses
would in no way pledge the Board of Trade to the in-
solvency of companies. The board would only be re-
sponsible for the appointment of the inspector, and would
have nothing whatever to do with his after proceedings.
The house divided, when there appeared--
For the clauses
Against them
Majority
—lO
A few verbal amendments were then made in souse of
the clausee_ and the bill passed.

CHURCH-RATES ABOLITION BILL.
On the order for going into committee on this bill,
Sir W. CLAY said it was impossible to take the com-
mittee then, and he appealed to the Government to
afford opportunities for the Lill• being got through in
titne to be sent up to the Lords this session.
Lord PALMERSTON said it was impossible for him
to fix any day now, but, consistently with the other
Lusiness, every opportunity should be given for bring-
ing on the bill at some future (late.
After some remarks from Lord R. CECIL, the com-
mittee was re-appointed for next Monday.
BURIAL ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.
On the motion for the second reading of this bill,
Mr. FITZROY said he should not oppose the second
reading, but ho must express his deep regret that such a
bill as this had been introduced. All the-necessary paro-
chial arrangements had been made for carrying out the
recent act.

Sir G. GREY raid that there was nothing in the bill
to disturb existing arrangements, except in so far as it
went to place sanitary arrangements under the Board
of Health.

Mr. A. PELLITT said that Dissenters were much
dissatisaed with the enormous charges now enforced.
They would prefer an entirely separate ground, as was
proposed by this bill.

After a conversation, the second reading of the bill was
postpaned till this day.

PUBLIC HEALTH SUPPLEMENTAL BILL.
This bill was read a third time and passed.
SIR W. F. WILLIAMS' .ANNLTITY BILL.
This bill was read a third tits Q and passed, amidst
&leers.

'EXCISE BILL.
This bill was read a second time, after an explanation
from Mr. Wilson as to its provisions.
JOINT-STOCK COMPANIES WINDING-UP
ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.
The second reading of this bill was postponed till Friday.
Tao house adjourned at two o'clock.