The Sun.
London, England, 1860-02-14 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 14, 1860.

has temporarily deprived us. (Hear, hear.) Let ins, in the
first place, as an important point for our consideration, give
the committee some idea of what other nations really possess.
There is, happily, no longer any mystery in these matters.
(Hear, hear.) I rejoiced when the right hon. baronet oppo-
site gave us last year the fullest information about our own
and foreign navies, and shall follow his example. I may also
state that foreign nations have no sort of hesitation in show-
ing us their dockyards. An idea at ono time prevailed that
the French did not like us to state publicly in Parliament
the extent and composition of their navy. Only two years
ago, in anticipation of a discussion in this house, and know-
ing there was some little difference of opinion as to the
amount of the French force, I wrote to the French Minister
of Marine, asking whether he would have any objection to
give me a list of the French navy. He sent me, in reply, the
name and force of every ship in the navy. (Hear, hear.)
What I am about to state, therefore, need excite no appre-
hension, as being likely to give the least offence to other
nations. I begin with France. The French navy is really
becoming very powerful. (Hear, hear.) At the present
time the French have 32 ships of the line afloat and five
building; 34 frigates afloat and 13 building; five iron-
cased ships—of which I shall have occasion to speak pre-
sently—building ; 17 corvettes afloat and two building ; 39
gunboats afloat and 29 building ; five floating-batteries
afloat and four building ; 31 transports , 80 avisos afloat
and three building. All these are steam- vessels ; 224 are
afloat and 61 building. (Hear.) We have reason to be-
lieve that most of those which are building might be
launched within a few weeks, but I confine the force at the
immediate disposal if the French to 244 ships. It is true
that if any gentleman were to inquire at the French Ad-
miralty, he would be told that they had only nine ships-of-
the-line at sea, the rest being in reserve ; but we khould
never lose sight of the fact that every one of those 244
vessels could be manned and sent to sea in a very few weeks.
(Hear, hear.) " Ships in reserve" is a very good term for the
French, and I do not quarrel with it, but in one sense
of the word those ships are perfectly ready.
The result is, therefore, that the French have 244
steam-vessels which, if hostilities were to break
out, which God forbid—and we have, indeed, every
reason to believe that no such eventuality will occur—could
be manned and sent to sea within a very few weeks, some of
them within a few days. (Hear, hear.) But there is
anothea Power which is making great struggles to create a
steam navy. I mean Russia. We are informed on very
good authority that the Russians have nine ships of the line
afloat and nine building; 18 frigates afloat, and three build-
ing; 10 corvettes, afloat and 11 building; 30 small vessels,
of which we do not know the force, afloat; 112 gunboats
afloat, and 25 building ; eight transports. The total is 187
steam vessels afloat and 48 building. That is a very for-
midable navy, and should be taken into consideration when
we:are discussing what amount of force we ought to main-
tain at sea. (Hear.) England, as is well known, has of late
years been endeavouring to form reserves at a vast expense.
First of all, the right hon. baronet the member for Carlisle
established the continuous service; then we had Coast
Volunteers. Up to the present time the last-mentioned
scheme has not been very successful. I mention this sub-
ject now, instead of waiting until I referred to our own force
in order to show the distinction between ourselves, who
really have, so to speak, no reserves, and the French and
Russians, who have vast bodies of men at their immediate
disposal. (Hoar.) I am obliged to say that before stating
the force which we have in commission, and which, accord-
ing to my calculation, is that which may fairly be compared
with what the French have afloat. The distinction between
the fleets of the two countries is this—that while all the
French ships which are afloat can be manned at very short
notice, it is only those which we have in commission which
are in a similar position. On the first of December last we
had in commission the following steamships—l exclude sail-
ing vessels altogether—line-of-battle ships, 27 ; frigates,
43 ; sloops, small vessels, and gunboats, 94 ; total 164,
being an increase of 46 vessels as compared with the
number of smaller ships in commission on the Ist of
December, 1856. In addition, we had on the Ist of
February, 1859, the guardships, the Coastguard
tenders and cruisers, all steam-vessels, making
a total of 244 steamships in commission. Since that date
we have commissioned one line-of-battle ship and two fri-
gates. I do not think that can be called anything like an
undue or improper force. The force which we havefor the
defence of our own shores, including, with the permission
of my gallant friend the member for Southwark (Sir C.
Napier) the Mediterranean squadron, is as follows :-27
line-of-battle ships, 14 frigates and corvettes, and 29 sloops
and gunboats ; total 70, which is a very respectable force.
Of the 27 line-of-battle ships which Me keep going back-
wards and forwards, 14 are at home and 13 in the Mediter-
ranean. In addition to this force we have the 10 Coast-
guard blockships which ate very useful for the defence of
our harbours—(hear, hear)—and 17 or 18, or sometimes 20
leaders, gunboats, and cruisers. In China we have 14
frigates and 41 sloop. ; total, 65 vessels ; and upon other
station., some at Vancouver's Island, some on the North
American station, and some at other places, we have three
line-of-battle ships, 19 frigates and corvettes, and 32 sloops
and gunboats—total 54. This is the force which we have to
oppose an enemy. God forbid that I should use that word as
though any opposition was likely to occur—this is the force
we maintain at sea in comparison with the forces of France
and Russia. We have of line-of-battle ships 48 afloat, and
11 building, and we expect within the next month to launch
two more, which will make 50 afloat. Of frigates we have
34 afloat and 9 building or converting; steam blockships,
9 afloat ; iron-cased vessels, 4 building ; corvettes, 16
afloat, and 5 building; sloops, 45 screw and 35 paddle,
total SO afloat and 15 building ; small vessels, 27 afloat ;
gunboats, 169 afloat and 23 building; floating batteries, 8
afloat; transports, troopships, tenders, yachts, &c., screw
18, paddle 43, total 61; screw mortar ships, 4 afloat.
Supposing the committee is pleased to consent to these
estimates, we hope to add to the navy before the end
of the next financial year 10 line-of-battle ships, 12
frigates, 4 iron-cased ships, 4 corvettes, 15 sloops, and
23 gun-vessels and gunboats. That includes the con
version of four line-of-battle ships and four frigates. With
regard to the estimates generally, before I turn to the par •
limier votes, I wish only to state to the committee that they
will find that the great increase arises upon three votes,
those referring to the number of men, the building of ships,
and the transport of troops. This expenditure is very large,
but I hope it is of a temporary and special nature, conse-
quent upon the hostilities with China. I do not enter into
the question as to the policy of those hostilities, but I think
that, under the circumstances, it is right for the Admiralty
to present an estimate which will be adequate to the per-
formance of the services _that may be required. (Hoar.)
I will now ask the committee to turn to vote No. 1, upon
which there is an increase of no less than!.£4lo,ooo. 'We ask
for an increase of 11,700 men and boys, of which number
we propose to add to the fleet, 8,000 seamen, 1,000 marines,
and 2,000 boys (this last addition being in accordance with
the recommendation of the Royal commission as to the esta-
blishment of the training ships), 100 additional Coast-
guardsmen afloat, and 600 on shore. The Coastguards.
men on shore are to replace the old Custom-house civi-
lians, who are being superannuated. The Board of Ad-.
miralty have given to the question of the number of men
required the most serious consideration, and that which has
been asked for is only enough to man the ships in commis-
sion, and to carry out another recommendation ofthe Royal
commission, that we should maintain a reserve of seamen in
our own ports. (Hear.) We hope we shall be enabled to
keep up a force at sea according to the numbers I have men-
tioned, perhaps with some little increase here and there, as
well as a reserve of seamen in our home ports ; and in addi •
tion we hope to be able to maintain a body of marines not
less than 6,000 as a home force.
Sir J. PAKINGTON.—What would you state as the
average number of the home force ?
Lord CLARENCE PAGET.—We hope to have a re-
serve of 10,000 men over and above what are employed on
active service. Of course, it is impossible to say exactly
what will be the force available, but it is the deur* of the
Admiralty to carry out the recommendation of the Royal com-
mission, that there should be a considerable reserve of sea-
men in the home ports, and available for any emergency. In
connexion with vote No. 1, we propose to increase the pay
of the masters, engineers, pay-masters, and chaplains of the
Royal Navy. Last year my right hon. friend opposite (Sir
J. Pakington) proposed what has given very general satis-
faction in the navy, an increase in the pay of the surgeons
of the navy. It was a great misfortune, however, that ho
overlooked the claims of three other classes of officers who
labour under the same disadvantages as the surgeons—that
is to say, to whom the higher ranks of the service are prac-
tically, if not absolutely, closed. A very strong reason why
we should improve the position of the assistant-masters is
to be found in the scarcity of these officers which the Navy
List exhibits. They are men. of great respectability and
high education, and they naturally prefer the merchant ser-
vice to the navy. The same remark holds good of the en-
gineers, who do not care to give up the higher pay which
they get in the merchant service to come into the navy. As
to paymasters, There is no difficulty in procuring them, but
• they are in the same social position, and it is impossible to
leave them out of view in framing the scheme. The propo-
sal is that there should be a small increase of pay to each of
those classes The change will consist chiefly in putting
them in a higher position, with their present pay,—that is
to say, they will be allowed to count towards their master's
pay for the time they have been second masters, and so on
with the paymasters and engineers. It is proposed they
should have the advantage of counting the time during
which they have acted before we have confirmed their rank,
and also part of the time they have been assistants, which
will be a great boon to these officers. If her Majesty should
sanction the arrangement I will lay it on the table. The
cost of this increase will be only some £25,000. I do not
know that the scheme will give unbounded satisfaction.
Some of the parties concerned may think it a rattier
niggardly advance, but it is all the Government, think it
right to propose. The item fur good conduct pay to petty
officers is very much the same as last year. There is one
large item not in the present estimate which was very
considerable in that of last year. 1 mean the half
bounty. The charge for seamen's clothing, tobacco, and
soap, £380,502 is very large this year, even thong £274,594
it is assumed will be repaid by seamen in the course of the
year, and I had some doubt whether it ought to fall entirely
on the present estimate or be in part provided for in that of
last year. The enormous addition to the fleet, and the gra-
tuitous issue of clothing exceeded the calculations of the
comptroller, and our store being exhausted, this largo item
required to be taken. The vote for victualling needs no fur-
ther explanation than that I have given for the previous
one. In the third vote, that for the Admiralty, there is an
increase to the amount of £14,000. I have received from the
Accountant-General of the Navy a very curious statement
as to the amount of superintendence both at the Admiralty
and dockyards since 1821, which shows very clearly that we
are much harder worked now than our predecessors used to
be. In 1821 the navy estimates amounted to £0,382,785—a
very different figure from the estimates of the present day ;
and the superintendents of the Admiralty and Navy
Boards whioll were then separate, consisted of not less thin

31 people—seven lords, 18 commissioners, and nine secre-
taries. The present estimates amount to £12,802,000, or
more than double those of 1821, and the superintendence of
the Admiralty consists of only 13 persons—namely, six
lords, two secretaries, and five principal officers. We are
obliged to take a considerable sum this year for additional
clerical assistance, temporary clerks, and the like • but on
referring to the accountsof 1821 I find that the clerking de-
partment was then about as numerous as new. The cost of
the Admiralty at Whitehall was £123,986, in 1821, against
£97,308 at the present time. (Hear, hear.) Another item
of increase in this vote is in consequence of the Board order
which was made at the time when the right hon. baronet
was at the head of the Admiralty. It provides that the
Director of the Works Department shall no longer be
charged with Vote 11, but that the expenditure shall be
shown under the heads of each establishment, and I believe
it is a very good arrangement. (Hear, hear.) I should
mention that as there is such a vast amount of business in
the Controller's Department it is absolutely necessary to
give him someassistance, and I believe it will be a positive
matter of economy. The fact is that this officer, who super-
intends the dockyard expenditure, and who really ought
to be constantly going into the dockyards, overlooking the
construction of ships and alterations taking place, is kept
a prisoner in his office by the vast amount of business which
he has to do. (Hear.) The Duke of Somerset has gone
into the report of the Committee ox Dockyard Economy,
and his minute, which will be shortly in the hands of mem-
bers, presents many suggestions and remarks which will
be found to be very valuable. Having given some atten-
tion to the question of the payment of the men in the dock-
yards, I must admit that it is fraught with difficulties.
Whether to pay the men by day labour, whether by task or
job, whether their earnings are to be unlimited, and whether
they are to work extra time, are all matters of vital import-
ance. The question involves the expenditure of millions
of the public money, and therefore it has been considered
very carefully by the Admiralty. But lam bound to say
that when the hoe, member who has given notice of such
a motion proposes an inquiry, ho will not find any great
opposition on the part of the Admiralty. (Cheers.) In
the meantime it will be oar business to reform wherever
we can. We shall not wait for the report of that commit-
tee to carry out improvements which we think are to the
advantage of the service, but we shall really look forward to
that inquiry with a considerable amount of interest. (Hear.)
It is not that we consider the Dockyard Committeehas not
done its duty. They have made many most valuable sug-
gestions, and some of them we have already carried out.
With regard, for instance, to the entry of apprentices, we
have taken steps to improve that system, and various other
details upon which I will not dilate. We still think, how-
ever, that there is a feeling on the part of the country that
we do not get value for our money. (Cheers.) With that
feeling existing, it is wisdom, both on the part of Govern-
ment and of Parliament to forward by every means any
inquiry which may be thought necessary. If it shall
be found that the present system works well, no man will
rejoice more than I shall, or snore than, I am sure, will
the HO) t hon. baronet. But if any method can be found of
constructing men of war—always bearing in mind that they
must be built with reference to all these requirements—at a
less expense, it will be the duty of her Majesty's Govern-
ment to give every possible assistance in making that dis-
covery. (Hear, hear.) There is no material increase in
Vote 4, for the Coastguard. We take, it will be observed,
the same amount for the annual retainers, conduct-money,
&c., for the Naval Reserve, as we did last year. This new
force, to which the country looks with so much satisfaction,
has certainly up to the present time not fulfilled the expec-
tations which were raised. I always felt, from the first,
that it was an experiment. I know what seamen are. They
are fine, noble, hearty creatures, but men of remarkably
suspicious character, and if there are any people they are
suspicious of, it is the Admiralty. (Laughter.) We are
really much indebted to the Board of Trade for the exer-
tions which they have made in drawing up the regulations
and giving us their assistance to carry out tho measure. I
wish I could state to the house that the men were entering
freely ; but they are not. Captain Browne reports from the
different merchant ports that the mon say, "We think the
Inducement very fair. We think it very handsome; but
they only want to kidnap us. The moment we put our
names down they will send us off to China." It is very
curious to see men labouring under that delusion. I have
been asked over and over again by directors of the great
shipping companies, and by men of importance in these
commercial ports, for some assurance on the part of the
Government that the men will not be called out until war
is declared. I told them I could not give that assurance,
but I also told them that it was perfectly certain there was
no intention to call them out, except in the event of a
critical emergency; that the threat of immediate hos-
tilities, or of something which would oblige us to make
the greatest exertions for the protection of our shores,
were the only circumstances under which the Go-
vernment would call for their services. If I can re-
assure them by what I say to-night, I really believe little
more is wanting to induce them to flock to the force.
(Hear, hear.) It is so far satisfactory that they are begin-
ning to get over this extraordinary idea. I wish to declare
to them that her Majesty's Government have no sort of in-
tention to kidnap them into the navy. (Hear, hear.) And
perhaps I had better add a more practical assurance—that
if we wished we could not enter them in the navy, because
the nnmber is complete, and except for casualties we have
no means of entering any considerable number of men over
and above what we have at present. (Hear.) I think that
is a very satisfactory state of things, and that the house
will be glad to hear there is no difficulty in getting men.
It must be remembered that a vast force of ships is only the
creation of the last few months, and that this fleet is wholly
manned. (Cheers.) The bounty has been reduced to £4
for able, and £2 for ordinary seamen. I will not enter into
the question of the propriety of the bounty. The bounty
has been given, and all the men are enjoying it, They are
now in that respect on the same footing as the army, and
we can raisethe bouni y to-morrow without committing any
injustice to the men already in the service. her Majesty's
Government have not come to any decision upon the sub •
ject. It is a small sum—only £20,000 out of the millions
we vote for the navy. It is a gift on entering the service
which enables the men to purchase clothes and other articles,
and it is a question whether it is not advisable to continue
it. At present it is only in force until the 31st of March
next. (Hear, hear.) Upon vote 5. for the scientific branch,
there is a small increase, in which I think the house will
be disposed to agree. The charge is for chronometers. The
house will scarcely credit that up to this time officers in
command of ships have been obliged to buy their own chro-
nometers, and it really is a scandal to the service that we
should have cast this burden upon officers, many of them
poor gentlemen, who have enough to do to pay their way.
Line-of-battle ships, frigates, and troop-ships will have
three, sloops two, and gunboats one. (Hear, hear.) Vote
6 is for her Majesty's establishment at home, and on this
vote I am going to ask the house to agree to an inconsider-
able increase to permit the employment of two assist-
ant-superintendents at the great yells of Portsmouth and
Plymouth. What I have said about the Comptroller of the
Navy is doubly true with regard to the superintendents of
these two great yards. One of the great reasons, I have
always thought, why we hear of idling in the dockyards,
and of there net being as much activity there as there ought
to be, arises from the constant confinement of the superin-
tendents to their offices. Their whole business is to write
letters--and I put it to the house whet'her that is a proper
occupation for such officials. (Hear, hear.) If you want
economy you must not stint your superintendents. You
must enable them to go about the dockyards and see that

the men are not idling: The appointment of these two as-
sistant superintendents may save thousands of pounds by
keeping the men at work. (Hear, hear.) The Admiralty
have also thought it their duty to look into the whole ques-
tion of the correspondence of the superintendents. lam
afraid to tell the house the number of returns we asked for.
Our table at the Admiralty is literally swamped with the
dockyard papers, but we are endeavouring to go into this
matter of returns with a view of suppressing such as are no
longer necessary, and I trust that we may produce a great
lessening of labour. It will be observed by the house that
in all these yards additional temporary clerks are employed.
We are quite aware of the growing evil of these temporary
clerks. (Hear.) It has become a public inconvenience in these
great establishments ; but the house must remember that if
you have additional workmen and additional ships in com-
mission the work of the clerks Is also increased in the same
ratio. We propose to take into consideration whether some
improvement may not be made in the establishment of the
clerks with a view to lessening labour. No 7is the vote for
foreign yards,iu which there is a small increase for increased
business, principally at Malta and the Mediterranean yards.
On vote 8 for artificers, my right hon. friend opposite
will, perhaps, find fault with me because we have reduced
it somewhat. When the present Board of Admiralty came
into office, we asked the house to agree to an addition
of £lOO,OOO on this vote, over and above what the right hon.
gentleman had proposed. We did so, because on reference
to the Surveyor of the Navy he told us that if that £lOO,OOO
were not added to the estimate, it would be impossible for
him to complete the programme which the right hon. gen-
tleman had laid before the house. We asked the house,
therefore, to agree to that £lOO,OOO ; but we have now made
such progress that tho Government think it possible to co-
vert to the seine number of men as were employed when
at.n fact, not a decrease, but
the head of the Board of
the
Admiralty.rie•h th o nT.
hg
iens
only knocking off the £lOO,OOO which we took over and
ttlheemreafnor was
eaLo
above the right hon. gentleman's estimate of last year. Vote
,
9 is the same as last year, with the exception of a small sum
fur the artificers of the fleet who are allowed extra pay
when they are employed in the dockyards ashore. Vote 10,
for the repair and building of ships,
ought to bear the motto— I have always thought
" Diruit, cedificat, mutat, quadrate rotundis."

It is all pulling to pieces, building up
again, and altering
in every shape. (Hear, hear.) Looking narrowly into these
alterations, I may differ somewhat from some ef my col-
leagues as to the extent to which the conversion of ships
ought to be carried. Because I am in office I am not going to
retreat from the opinion which I expressed out of office. I
greatly dislike these alterations. My opinion is that those
old ships are not worth the time and money expended on
them. In my humble opinion, it is like putting "new wine
into old bottles." (Hear.) The two woods do not agree,
and they speedily decay, If you cut a hole into one of these
old ships and put an engine into it, it may be made very
valuable for the defence of the country as a superior kind of
block ship, but I cannot agree in the propriety of lengthen-
ing them at the bows, cutting them in two, and so on.
This vote is composed of several items, but I cannot say
that it gives any great detailed information. (Hear, hear.)
The items are large and the information small. The
Board of Admiralty have anxiously considered their vote,
and they are most desirous of giving every possible in-
formation with regard to it. I should have liked to lay
this vote on the table very much in the same form as vote 11
for public works, but the Admiralty laboured under very
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" How can we give an estimate for a future
naftoonervytihenoriformation,
year, when we really don't know what proportion of
money we have expended during the past year on building,
or on repairing, or on what particular ships it has been ex-
pended." The Board of Admiralty called on the Accountant-
General to give a return which I very much wish was now
on the table of the house—of the cost of ships during the
past year. That return, which is of a very interesting- cha-
racter, gives the name and the soot of every ship in the navy
under six different heads—namely, ships building, convert-
ing from sail to screw, maintenance of ships in commission,
of the steam reserve, of old sailing ships in ordinary, and
maintenance of the dockyard guard. The timber, beams,
ausl other stores required for these different purposes are
likewise shown. I do not say that the return is perfect,
because it is a novelty ; it has hitherto existed in the dock-
yard, but it has never yet been practically turned to account,
and the items consequently have not been properly charged
—in fact, it may be sail that its present value is nil as coin-
pared with what it will be in future years. As the name of
the dockyard is attached to each ship, with the particulars
of the amount of material Consumed, the cost of labpur, the
outlay on her engines, and every detail respecting her inter-
nal construction and fitting out, the Admiralty will be at
once enabled to refer to the cost of each vessel, and to com-
pare it with the cost of similar vessels in the other yards.
(Hear, hear.) In all matters of account there is nothing like
publioity—(hear, hear)—and I am persuaded that one great
and immediate effect of this comparative view of the cost of

ships will be a direct tendeney to economy in the several
establishments. (Hear, hear.) Take the case of a ves-
sel in commission very few "persons who have not
turned their attention to that subject can form any idea
of the cost to which the country is put by each addi-
tional line-of-battle-ship. The public say, " Give us
ten line-of-battle ships additional;" this return will
give them an idea of the magnitude of the request. (Hear.)
'Within the last few days a gallant officer in command of
one of her Majesty's vessels and an intimate friend of mine,
called at the Admiralty, and in the course of conversation I
showed him what his ship had cost during the past year,
and he was absolutely thunderstruck. (Hear, hear.)
Sir C. NAPIER—Such a return existed once before.

Lord C. 'PAGET—What has been done shows what is
capable of being done, and I trust that if my right hon.
friend (Sir J. Pakington) succeeds to office, he will continue
to require the same informatioa. When two or three years
have elapsed, we shall be able to place this vote upon a
much more intelligible and satisfactory footing, by striking
an average of the cost which this return will exhibit. I have
shown the house what we possess in ships built ; it will now
be interested, probably, in knowing what we have con-
structed in tonnage, and what we propose to build during
the present year. It may possibly be remembered that, in
proposing the estimates last year we announced our inten-
tion, of course subject to contingencies, of building 46,000
tons of shipping in the dockyards.

Sir J. PAKINGTON--Exclusive of conversions ?

Lord C. PAGET—We said we would convert four line
of-battle ships and five frigates, in addition. What we
have actually built amounts to 19,730 tons in ships of the
line, 13,654 in frigates, 5,436 in corvettes, and 522 in gun
vessels. We have not fulfilled our promise as to frigates,
in which class I stated that we would build 16,000 tons, the
reason being that there was an insufficiency of timber for
the purpose ; but we have made up for this deficiency in
another way, for we have gone beyond our undertaking in
the conversion of sailing into steam frigates and screw ships.
(Hear, hear.) What we propose doing in the present, or, as
my right hon. friend reminds me, the ensuing financial year,
is to build 13,216 tons of ships of the line, 13,500 tons of
frigates, 4,871 tons of corvettes, 8,045 tons of Bleeps and gun
vessels, and 302 tons of gunboats, making a total of 39,934
tons. In addition we propose to convert four more line-of-
battle ships and four frigates. It is necessary that I
should afford some idea of the expenditure of timber that
is required. Our ordinary establishment in the dockyards,
which is regarded as two years' stock, consists of 60,000
loads of timber for shipbuilding purposes ; but during the
present financial year, instead of consuming tho ordinary
rate of 30,000 loads, we have used 61,000 loads of timber,
the result of whicn has been that we have been literally
unable to import timber with the same rapidity with which
we were working it up. Of copper, also, it has been found
exceedingly difficult to procure an adequato supply, for this
last year we have consumed nearly 1,000 tons. (Hear,
hear.) Some discrepancy will be observed between 8 and
10, which should bear a strict proportion to each other ;
but, having thus lessenel our stock of timber, we this
year require a larger sum by £Bl,OOO on that account, and
we do not increase the number of men in an equal ratio. It
may not be uninteresting to the house to know what the
French are doing in this respect. It is true that they have
greater facilities for procuring timber than we have, but
they have in stcck 160,000 loads, or sufficient to build 15
line-of-battle ships, 15 frigates, and 15 corvettes, which is a
stock far above anything we have ever had in this coun-
try. (Hear.) The next item, for coals, also exhibits an
increase, not only because we have a more numerous fleet,
but because we were obliged to send a large stock to China.
I pass to the next 'tern, for the purpose of steam machinery,
as to which the house would, doubtless, desire some infor-
mation. We are building engines for line-of-battle ships
to the extent of 5,700-horse power ; for frigates, 7,100-
horse power ; other vessels and corvettes, 1,200-horse
power; sloops, 3,000 horse power; gun vessels, 1,200-
horse power; gunboats, 600-horse power—that is t say, a
power in all equal to that of 18,800 horses. These cost
£55 15s. each horse power. This is a very high price for
machinery, no doubt. But if the committee look carefully
to the items that compose a steam engine for a man-of-
war, they will agree with the Committee on Steam
Machinery, who report that, regard being had to the
difference between them, the navy steam engines do not
cost more than those of merchant vessels. They must have
spare gear, their engines must work in a small space, and
they are in other respects very much more expensive than
those of the merchant service. I will now turn to the iron-
cased ships which are building. The right hon. gentleman
opposite (Sir J. Pakington), hearing that they were build-
ing in France several of these vessels, thought it right to
take a supplementary or special vote—l think a supplemen-
tary vote—for building two iron-cased frigates, one of
which was ordered to be built before the late Government
quitted office. The right hon. gentleman asked me, soon
after the present Government came into office, whether the
Admiralty were going on with the second frigate. I replied
that the Board of Admiralty were carrying out certain ex-
periments, and that if they were satisfactory the Admiralty
would go on with the second frigate. Shortly afterwards
the Admiralty ordered a second frigate to be built of the
same dimensions as the first. These vessels are of enor-
mous scantling and very large tonnage. The Warrior and
the Black Prince are of 6,039 tons each, and 1,200-horse
power. They will be entirely cased with iron, and I am one
of those who believe that they will be vessels of a most for-
midable nature. There will be two of the tonnage I have
mentioned, and there will also be two of a smaller tonnage,
3,368 tons, which the Board of Admiralty will have built
during the autumn. They will be iron-cased, and will have
the same power of resisting shots, and the same capability
of defence. The late Board ordered six sloopsof 200-horse
power and 12 gun vessels of 18-horse power. The present
Board have ordered 10 gun-boats of 60-horse power, making
the total cost during the present and future financial year
that we are building by contract of £1,355,807. This sum, I
ought to add, includes the machinery. It ie an enormous
sum, over and above what we are building in our dockyards.
These are the e rincipal items of vote 10. We are very anxi-
ous to give every information on this vote. We are duly
sensible of the necessity of economy in building our ships,
and we trust that the inquiry which is to be moved for by
my hon. friend on the labour in our dockyards will give us
great assistance herein. At present the country is in the po-
sition of a very wealthy gentleman who has lived very gene-
rously, and has not called for his bills; who has been, in
short, what is called a "fast man." If ho determined to
live .economically for the future, the first thing he would do
would be to collect his recounts. That is the first process
for economising these great dockyard votes. 'We want to
know the amount of cost and the value of stock, and then
we shall look about us and see if we cannot reform. (Hear,
hear.) I now turn with pleasure to vote 11 (new works,
improvement, and repairs in the yards), for this is the only
vote for the effective service that shows a real reduction.
I believe that we have taken every suns that is requisite for
keeping our dockyards in really good lepair, while at the
same time we have avoided any new works.except in a few
cases, the vote being mostly expended in completing the
work of our predecessors. I used formerly to be of opinion
that many of our new works wore on too grand a scale, and
I confess that my visits to the dockyards have confirmed
soy views. I accompanied my noble friend (the Duko of
Somerset) to Woolwich, and we looked at a magnificent
building, overtopping the Thames, and looking like some
great palace. This was the new Marine Infirmary. We
walked over it and paced its stately colonnades, and I am
afraid we wore both sordid enough to say that its architec-
tural magnificence cost too much money. (Hear, hear.) At
Keyham the same remark occurred. No doubt. there are
great public buildings in our dockyards, all of them very
li
necessary, but too much attention has, I think, in many
cases been given to architectural design, and too much scope
to the taste of our engineers. Now, the present Board of
Admiralty disapprove greatly of any unnecessary expendi-
ture of this kind, and when the architects and engineers of
our yards have brought us remarkably tasteful designs for
our approbation we have rejected them, and asked them to
give us something more simple. (Hear.) I take some pride
in having kept this vote down, and I do not believe that any
substantial work really required has been omitted. For in-
stance, we are going on with a deck at Portsmouth which
was commenced some years ago, and we have taken a small
vote for that. The next rote, for medicines and medical stores,
shows a small increase, but not beyond what is necessary for
the increase of the fleet. Vote 13, for the miscellaneous ser-
vices shows an increase of £lB,OOO, the reasons for which are
shown in the votes, and I now turn to vote 14—the half-
pay vote—to which I would ask the attention of my hen
friend the member for Sunderland. He is under the idea
that the non-effective charge for the navy is growing year.
by year, and is becoming so great a burden as to require
looking into. But so far from that, the half-pay vote for
the future year shows a decrease of £27,000. This is, in
fact, a yearly decreasing vote, and in a few years, as the
elder officers give way to nature—(" Hear, hear," from Ad-
miral Walcott)—the committee will remember my hon. and
gallant friend's eloquence on that subject—the burden will
greatly diminish. I must now allude to the vote of £12,000
as an additional charge for improving and altering the eye-
tem of retirement of officers of the royal navy, with a view
to the increased efficiency and reduction in the numbers of
officers on the active lists. The Admiralty has had under
jionfuretnoooefperntnt: shiliteocoen:frr iffiteofljooonnseus
ranksconsideration, o
f the
navy. the ratear ofh a
ar.promotion) t
is
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only thea n
it
s
eeeserrtt
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ibtsece
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smtlit
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eeebraiyeoanlffitadi
iehiocvffone
certainurrosl indifferent
therenb
ttr
anuhaottentwe necessary
iee clefsl
vote ebi
ee
itselfs slack
promotionan roi yu allowed, t
dilltoh atsechahi
ureai elyunffiwbtei
yceent efficiency
kept
cpwaahnr
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which will
per-
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the
t eaa affect
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exert themselves with zeal
o
inatsomlaestdesgsneveee,etdheed
in
l
I need mention under this head,
captains.
establishing
wit sepi ntsaThanr
oiati particulars
eiasspanueret: ixanhccse.Bo:opofmntnWitusiohyinhaefe.oenhnrpdalaNrtawvrhgnseee:,
and, in
widows of warrant officers. (" Hear, hear," from Sir C.
Napier.) I am convinced that no grant will be more ap-
preciated by the navy ; at present it is limited to £5OO,
and that sum, I nay say, we have screwed out of the
Chancellor of the Exchequer. (Hear, hear, and laughter.)
All preceding Chancellors of the Exchequer have resisted
the grant ; but my right hon. friend has conceded it, on
the ground that it is just and right. (Hear, hear.) The
last vote to which I shall call the attention of the house
is that for transport. It does not properly belong to the ex-
penses of the navy; but the Admiralty has to provide all the
means ef ocean transport for the army. We have thought
it right to take for the present year the large sum of £120,000
for the freight of ships on monthly pay, or for the purchase of
them, besides the vote for the conveyance of stores and troops.
I may now close this statement. In doing so I should belie
my own feelings if I did not add that it is with extreme pain
tlyth inazin whatevertained—
ma happen, the people may be able to say, " We are safe
that I find myself compelled to be the instrument of propell-
ing to vote this vast suns of money for the navy. But I am
convinced that it is the wish of the people of this nation
and their
shouldshouldbeunder
no alarm--that,
under the protection of our navy. In a discussion on the
defenses of the country last year, some very valuable advice
y
was given to the house by my hon. friend the member for
Rochdale (Mr. Cobden). He thought that much of our
naval force might with advantage be abolished; but there
was one passage of his speech so marked by patriotism and
eentaining such sound and reasonable views that I can't help
reading it to the house. I believe it cannot do better than
follow the advice conveyed. The hon. member for Roch-
dale said "he did not wish to reduce our navy to the same
force as that of France ; but he should like to see the two
Governments agree on some relative proportion of force ;
thus, the French navy might be two-thirds that of England
e--where the French had two ships England might have
three." If you examine the state of the French navy you
will find we have not surpassed what the hon. member for
Rochdale considered the necessary superiority of our navy
over that of France. (Hear, hear.) And taking into con-
sideration the strength of the Russian navy, I say we aro
bound to continue our exertions till we place our navy on a
really sound and efficient footing. But I must also say, on
the part of her Majesty's Government, that though they
have agreed to these very large estimates, they do not con-
sider themselves bound to expend them, should circum-
stances render a less amount sufficient. We thought it
better to ask the house at once to grant a sufficient amount
of money, and number of men, than to apply to it again with
additional votes and supplementary estimates. But if the
dispute with China should end peacefully, if public affairs
on the Continent and throughout the world generally
should appear favourable, the Government will not feel

bound to spend the full amount f the vote, because the
House has generously granted it I thank tho House
fur the indulgence it has extolled to the statement I
have made; and I shall be glad teinswer any question in
reference to it.
On the first vote of £2,216,945 1 defray the charge of
54,000 officers, seamen, anti boys to be employed in her
Majesty's fleet for the ensuing ear, being put by the
chairman,
Sir J. PAKINGT ON said,—Then I took up the navy
estimates for this year I certainly elt some curiosity to see
how far the opinions the noble loi expressed last year, as
to the new form in which certainvotes, especially vote 10,
aught to appear on the estimate, had been carried out.
But I found vote 10 on the paps, wearing very much its
old shape. Still, it is only just to he noble lord to say that
his statement has not only been yry clear, but made with
that openness and candour the Huse of Commons has a
right to expect from the Goverment of the day. The
Government has, I admit, asled the House for un-
usually large estimates ; but I lo not think they are
larger than circumstances require and they prove a de-
termination on the part of her Majety's Government to act
in the same spirit as the late Minitry. (Hear, hear.) It
is the first duty of the Governmentof the day, as I believe
it is the anxious desire of the cantry, to maintain the
navy in a perfectly efficient conditin. There is, no doubt, I
a great increase in the estimates, 6 compared with former
years ; but I am willing to believe on the authority of the
noble lord, that they are not largerthan the necessity of the
case requires. The great expondiure is of course caused
by the large amount of men caller for, and by the efforts
made to increase the number of our ships. I am ex-
tremely glad to see by the return which was this morning
put into our hands by the Admiraty, that the programme
which I submitted to the House ayear ago, on the part of
the late Government, has been !ssentially carried out.
(Hear.) It will be in the recollectioi of the committee that
in the programmeof last year I announced the intention of
the then Government to add 15 toour line-of-battle ships,
thereby increasing the number of effective screw line-of-
battle ships from 33 to 48. I see )), the return before me
that that programme has been exactly carried out during
the year. (Cheers.) My noble Merl has stated that a con-
siderable number more are to be wiled during the ensuing
year; that we are to have at least 1 lidditional line-of-battle
ships, which will raise the number from 48 to 59. (Hear.)
This leads me to an inquiry of some importance, and that is
whether the present Board of Admtalty has arrived at any
decision as to the number of line-of-tattle ships they propose
ultimately to have. (Hear.) Thi: is a point to which I
know the noble lord the Secretary d the Admiralty has de •
voted much attention. He has eepeatedly expressed the
opinion in this house that we shoull give up the building of
line-of-battle ships, that line-of-battle ships are compara-
tively useless, and that we should devote our attention to
the building of other classes of ships. I could not concur
with the noble lord in the views he'thus expressed. I never
would be a party to any change of that kind, till we had fully
established the proper superiority of England in line-of-
battle ships to all the other nations of Europe. (Hear.) But
I may state that, so far as the late Board of Admiralty had
considered this subject, we had—l will not say definitely
arrived at the conclusion—but had entertained the opinion
that if this country possessed 60 efficient screw line-of •battle
ships, it would bo so far satisfactory as to enable us to pause
and deal with this great question. (Hear.) My noble friend
and all who are conversant with the subject will admit that
there is strong reason to suppose we are approaching a time
when it will become a question how far these line-of-battle
ships are the most effective ships of the navy. Why, we have
heard this daytfro in my noble friend, as part of the plans of the
late Government, carried out by the present Government, of
the building of such ships as the Mersey and the Orlando on
a system which introduces a new element into this question
—ships of the same tonnage as the largest in the navy, and
carrying not a great number of guns, but guns of the
greatest power and calibre, and forming very formidable
armaments. (Hear.) Then we have changes going on
in the manufacture of ordnance, and the construction of
Armstrong guns, all which fairly raise the question as to the
limits within which we should confine the building of line-of-
battle ships. (Hear.) I hope, however, that I shall not be
misunderstood. De not let us pause till we have fully esta-
blished the superiority of this country in that description
of ships. At the same time bearing in mind the great ex-
pense of building these ships, let us consider what will be
the probable effect of the changes to which I have adverted.
I should like to know, therefore, how far the Government
are now laying down new ships of that class, and whether
they have adopted any limit at which they may pause, and
wait to see what the effects of the changes going on really
are. (Hear, hear.) Last year I promised, it will be recol-
lected, nine screw frigates—five new, and four conversions
—and I am glad to see that the premise I held out is so
nearly fulfilled. Having made these remsrks on the build-
ing of ships, allow me to say a few words on that heavy
item which was the principal cause of the excess el outlay
last year—the addition of men. I stated last year that wo
proposed an addition of 3,000 men; and subsequently we
brought down supplementary estimates for 10,000 men and
marines. This was a iarge addition ; but the noble lord has
announced a still further addition, and I am bound to as-
sume that the proposal is made by the Government in con-
sequence of the strong Opinion they entertain of its neces-
sity. lam therefore not disposed to make any complaint
on the score of that addition. (Hear, hear.) lam glad to
find that the Admiralty have not lost sight of the recom-
mendation of the commissioners to lock up a certain num-
ber of men in our ports. My noble friend brought some-
thing like a charge against me with regard to the masters
of the navy. He alluded to what I had done with regard
to certain officers, but said I had overlooked the masters
and other classes. (Hear, hear.) That is not the case,
for the late Government had it in contemplation to deal
with the masters and those other classes to which ho re-
ferred, and were only prevented carrying out their inten-
tions by circumstances which they could not control. I
did not clearly understand what fell from my noble friend
as to the office of the Controller of the Navy. Is there
to be any change in the arrangements of that office. [Lord
C. PAGET—lnstructions are to be given of a more direct
character for its regulation.] lam happy to hear that the
attention of the noble lord has been directed to this subject,
as when in office I contemplated considerable changes in
this department; and whatever the alterations now proposed
may be, I should like to have more definite information
regarding them. I was also glad to hear what the noble
lord said with regard to apprentices in our dockyards. I
trust that what he proposes will have the effect of improv-
ing this class of workmen, and checking that tendency to
political jobbery that has been under all Governments a
source of great complaint and annoyance, and which I did
all in my power to suppress. (Hear, hear.) The evil com-
plained of is a very serious one, and I hope the regulations
in regard to apprentices will go a great way to check it.
(Rear, hear.) I believe it is quite indispensable that this
country should, within a very short period, embark in a
large expenditure for the improvement of our dockyards. I
am convinced that you will bo unable to keep up the navy,
with due regard to economy and to the interests of the coun-
try, unless your dockyards are made more efficient than they
are at present. (Hear, hear.) For instance, take Chatham—
Lord C. PAGET—We are taking .ClO,OOO with that view
for Chatham.

Sir J. PAKINGTON—My noble friend surely does not
mean to say that £lO,OOO will be anything like sufficient for
the purpose at Chatham. lie only takes that sum to con-
tinue and carry out a previous arrangement, on which a con-
siderable amount has already been expended, and to complete
which a very much larger sum is required. If you intend
to make Chatham a dockyard such as it ought to be, you
must make up your minds to a much larger outlay. (Hear,
hear.) It only remains for me to allude to the two
last subjects to which my noble friend adverted—namely,
the pensions for the widows of warrant officers and the re-
tirement of senior officers in the navy. With regard to
warrant officers' widow, I always thought it most desirable
to grant such pensions, but I was not so successfulin carry-
ing out my views in that respect as my noble friend has
been, and I congratulate him on achieving a success which
I was unable to attain. 'With respect to the retirement of
officers, that is a subject to which I am glad to hoar the pre-
sent Board of Admiralty have directed attention. There was
no subject on which I felt more strongly when I left the
Board than the absolute necessity of adopting some im-
preyed mode of retirement, so as to remove that check to
promotion which has always been a matter of just com-
plaint. (Hear, hear.) I ens glad that the present Board
have directed their attention to the subject, and I shall
wait with some anxiety to hear any explanation of their
plan. I will only add that in following my noble friend it
affords me much satisfaction to be able to speak in the tone
in which I have done. (Hear, hear.)
Sir C. NAPIER was glad to hear the noble lord (Lord C.
Paget) not only give an exact statement of our own navy,
but also of those of France and Russia. He had shown that
France had 244 vessels of every description ready for sea;
Russia, 235 ; and England, '234. He had also told the com-
mittee that France could man the whole of her ships with
her reserves whenever she thought proper, and he (Sir C.
Napier) had seen it stated in a Paris newspaper that France
had not less than 90,000 men on whom she could at any
time lay hands. Russia had always her fleet manned ; Eng-
land alone could not man her fleet. He had worked for
20 years in and out of that house, in order to see the navy
placed on a proper footing. (Hear, hear.) He had been
called an alarmist and laughed at for many years on that
account ; but the country had at length adopted his views
and forced the present Government, as it did the last, to
proceed in putting the navy in a proper condition.
With respect to the practice of conversion, he agreed
with the late First Lord that ships could be converted
with advantage. The Neptune, the Nilson, and others,
which had been converted, had turned out remarkably fine.
ships. He could not, however, agree in the propriety of
cutting a hole in the stern of the ship without lengthening
her. In the case of such ships as the Edinburgh and the
Ajax, that course had been found by experience not to an-
swer. They were neither fit to sail nor to steam. They were,
in fact, altogether unfit to go to sea, and if they got on a
lee shore nothing on earth could save them. The navy
estimates were certainly very large, but he submitted the
country would get the value of their money. We never had
seen the navy, in respect to ships, in a better position than
it was at present. But still the country must expect to lay
its account for the building of a new navy. Our great ally
was determined to have iron ships. Between him and us it
had become a matter of the longest purse, and the question
was, where were we to stop ? We had got ships, but what
use were they so long as .tve had not men ? It was melan-
choly to think that iu this great maritime nation wo could
not raise an adequate reserve of seamen for the navy. There
must be some 'Season why the navy was so unpopular, and
Parliament must try to get at the root of it. lie could not
conceive why we should not have more marines, and keep
them on shore, with the exception of about 100 on hoard each
ship. A reserve fur the navy must be found somewhere or
other, and as there was an enormous number of fishermen
and of men whose occupation was looking out for wrecks
along our shores, lie should advocate the expediency of
having recourse to a system of ballot in our maritime towns,
which should include the inhabitants of those districts. The
system under which men who had never done a single stroke
of work for the Queen were allowed to put down their names
on the reserve list, and while at liberty to go where they
pleased receive £6 a-year, was, he thought, by no means a
good one to secure the object we had in view. The course
which lie should pursue would be to leave to every seaman
when his ship was paid off the option of beingplaced in the re-
serve or not as he might think proper, alio wing him to count two
years towards his pension for every three years service. At
present the Admiralty had no means of knowing what men
entitled to pensions had refused to take them. The Admi-
ralty ought to know those men, and if it could once be made
known that 4,000 men had entered the reserve, the intelli-
gence would spread throughout the merchant service, and
the reserve would soon be tilled up. If the force could not
be filled up with Di, then a calculation must be made
whether it would not be cheaper with a larger sum than the
maintenance of a large force at sea. Another point which
ho must mention related to the Channel fleet, which the
Admiralty did not seem to know how to manage when they
got it. Some time since there was mutiny, or something
liko It. On board the Liffey there was a disturbance, shot
rolled about, mess traps broken, and other disorders. In
that case the Admiralty did Wit take proper steps, but sim-
ply gave way, and tll6 man gained their point. Something
of the sin eat happened
),vaY4 the Caesar on a ques-

tion of leave. The complaint was, he thought, ft just one.
When ships were fitting out in harbour there was plenty of
leave, but now whenever a ship was out of harbour she was
sent to Portland, while the drills went on, a period most
irksome to the men, and when the utmost indulgence should
be granted. In that way the disturbance arose on board
the Caesar, and the Admiralty, instead of sending the
squadron to sea, and sending the Cesar to the West Indies,
allowed the men to remain the victors. In the Mediter-
ranean, on board the flagship Marlborough, there was also
a disturbance, and that was passed over. Then came the
Princess Royal, the worst case of all. She came from the
Mediterraneen, and, according to a very proper arrange-
ment, another ship was ready to which the crew was to be
transferred ; but there were three classes of men on board
—the bounty men and the continuous service men, upon
whom the Admiralty had a claim, and those who had en-
tered generally, upon whom they had no claim. When
the captain left the ship the men cried out, " Pay off," and
then the Admiralty ought to have had a member of the
Board down to inquire into the matter, but, instead of doing
so, they gave way. The continuous service men and the
bounty men should have been sent on board the Queen, and
the others should have been required to return their stores,
which would have occupied them for three weeks, and then
they should have been told that their services were not
required further. Then, when there was a ship launch, and
the Queen came down, the men ought to have had leave
from Saturday to Monday, but instead of that one-half had
leave and the rest had not. That, of course, created dissa-
tisfaction, and a cry of " All or none." The Admiral very
properly said " None," but unluckily the liberty men had
been landed and were taken back from the dockyard gates. ,

It was an error to order those men back, although he Would
not say whose error it was. He must say, to the credit of
the seamen, that it was not true that they had deserted in
great numbers after taking the bounty, for he had seen a
return showing that since bounty was given desertions had
been fewer than before. Everyone knew how easy it was
for sailors to desert, but he did not think the Admiralty
took proper means to punish desertion. He would punish
every man, even with transportation, who took the bounty
not intending to remain in the service. There was another
evil in the service in respect to leave. When he was in
Lisbon harbour, he found that no leave was ever given there,
but he granted leave to the men to go on shore. The men
got drunk and made rows, and complaints were made to him,
and he got the police of Lisbon to take up every drunken
English sailor and put him into prison, the consequence of
which was, that all complaints soon ceased. If the same
thing were done for a short time, it would soon put an end
to such misconduct. It might be said this could not be done
in England, but they could station a guard ship close to
where the men landed, warn them, and if they broke their
leave or behaved ill place them on board as prisoners. There
need be no difficulty in giving men leave, and getting rid of
those irregularities which were subversive of all discipline.
The men would thus also be made much more comfortable
and happy than they were at present. There was
another point to which he wished to advert.
If a ship were paid off with the crow, it was
attended with great expense; but if they were trans-
ferred to another ship directly, and the ship turned over to
the superintendent of the dockyard to return her stores, the
whole might be effected with much regularity and economy.
He trusted the Admiralty would take steps to remedy all the
evils he had pointed out ; especially let them see that I
the men had leave atall times in moderation, and that they
were punished if they behaved improperly—imprisoned if
they got drunk on shore and behaved in a disorderly man-
ner. A great deal had lately been done for seamen in giv••
ing them their traps, allotments, and paying them once a
moath, and they might treat as severely as they pleased
those who wore guilty of breaches of discipline if they only
did thorn justice. In the Baltic a disturbance broke out on
board one of the ships of the fleet. He desired an inquiry
to be made to see if there were any grievances, and, if so,
that they should be redressed. Grievances were found to
exist : they were redressed, and the evil did not extend as
it might have done, to other ships in the fleet. He had
laboured long to have the money put on a proper footing,
and he would never rest satisfied till it was properly manned,
and till the men.got redress of every evil they had any:reason.
to complain of. They could not now be treated as they
formerly were. The men were more enlightened, and they
expected more indulgence. (Hear, from Mr. Williams.)
The hon. member for Lambeth may cry " Hear," as if ho
wanted popularity; but he would not put an eial to flogging
for all that. He would flog but he would flog in a proper
manner. (A laugh.) If a man behaved ill, he would try
him by court-martial and punish him. Me was not afraid
to say so. The men themselves would not live in a ship if
there was no discipline. A ship wouldbe a hell upon earth
without discipline, and if the hon. member for Lambeth
succeded in abolishing corporal punishments in the navy to-
morrow he would not get the thanks of the men. (Hear.)
Sir J. ELPHIN STONE thanked the noble lord for his
clear and business-like statement, which he had heard with
peculiar pleasure. With regard to the pensions to warrant
officers' widows, ho wished to know whether the arrange-
ment was to be retrospective as recommended by the naval
commission. If not, ho should never suspend his agitation
till that grievance was redressed. The present allowance as
outfit for a petty officer when raised to a warrant officer was
£3O, but was quite inadequate, and there was often found
great difficulty in getting proper men to come forward for
the warrant, because pensions were taken away from their
widows. 'With regard to boys, the commission recom-
mended that schoolshipa should be established at all the
principal commercial ports. Provision was to be made for
2,400 boys, besides those who came forward voluntarily to
be afterwards absorbed into the mercantile and Royal ma-
rine. He found no vote taken for school ships, and he
wanted to know what was the intention of the Government
in that respect. He had heard from various ports, such as
Hall, Greenock, Aberdeen, and Dundee, that these school
ships were looked for with great interest, and there was con-
siderable disappointment that the recommendation of the
commission had not been carried into effect. When the
boys went on board ship, a namber of them were employed
as officers' servants. He objected to that, as being a most
prejudicial employment for boys ; under such a system they
became neither good seamen nor good servants. (Hear.)
There was another point. In the Marine Artillery ser-
geants were paid 3d. a day less than in the Royal Artil-
lery. He thought the pay should be equalized. Tho pay
of captains of men-of-war was also inadequate : they could
not maintain their position without trenching on their pri-
vate ai,eme The number of midshipmen in tho service was
utterly insufficient, and in many of the vessels in which
young men entering the service were expected to qualify
themselves for passing a highcompotitive examination there
were no naval instructors. The establishment of the naval
reserve had not been attended with the success that could
have been wished. Various causes had contributed to this
result. The bounty had operated greatly against the re-
serve, as had also the disturbance in the Princess Royal.
Again, the Admiralty had not taken the proper stops for
making the advantages of service in the reserve sufficiently
known. They should take a loaf out of tho Horse Guards
book, and employ active petty officers at the different ports,
in the same way as recruiting sergeants were now employed
on behalf of the army. In a town like Portsmouth it might
be expected that a regular office for the enlistment of sea-
men would be open; yet hon. gentlemen would be sur-
prised to hear that the only place where anything of the
kind was conducted was the house of Mrs. Eliza Wainer, a
woman who understood where sailors were to be found and
what they looked fur. (A. laugh.) Proper dockyard ac-
commodation ought to be provided for our skips. His be-
lief was that if the Princess Royal had had a basin to go
into the disturbance on board that vessel would never have
occurred.

Mr. WHITBREAD said that, however carefully the
Admiralty might prepare its programme, it was necessary to
bear in mind that it was liable to derangement from many
disturbing causes. It was impossible to fix upon a stan-
dard for our force, and say that that was the proper amount
of naval strength for this country to keep up. That force
must always depend upon what was done by other coun-
tries; and it was only by watching the growth of foreign
navies—whether in line-of-battle ships, frigates, or iron
ships—that we could arrive at any just estimate of our own.
requirements. With regard to the duties of the Comptrol-
ler of the Navy, changes were now in progress in his office,
and when those changes were completed there would be no
hesitation in furnishing the information which the right
hon. baronet desired. The dockyards would be kept in a
proper state of repair with the sum taken in the present
estimates, although largo works, which would certainly
have to be undertaken some time or other, had been post-
poned in the different yards. The right hon. baronet
would be glad to learn that the Government had faced the
somewhat difficult question connected with Chatham.
It was in contemplation to extend that yard, and
the Board, having considered the deficiency of accom-
modation in the eastern arsenal and the dockyard, had come
to the conclusion—looking to the natural disadvantages of
Sheerness, and to the objections, in a military point of
view, to the Isle of Grays—that St. Mary's Island was the
only direction in which the dockyard accommodation should
be enlarged. A great deal of the unhappy feeling excited in
the case of the Princess Royal had arisen from the fact that
the officers were in the habit of obtaining leave when the
ship was paid off, while the men were restricted. The offi-
cers had now been placed on the same footing as the men in
this respect, and not a murmur had been heard in the ease
of any of the ships that had since been paid off. He con-
curred fully in the opinions of the hon. baronet (Sir J. D.
Biphinstone) as to the value of a reserve force, and he hoped
that by carefully studying the feelings and the interests of
the men mach would in time be done to make the service
popular and respected. (Hear.)

Sir J. PAKINGTON, in explanation, said he did not in-
tend to suggest that there should be or could be anything
like a permanent standard of line-of-battle ships. But he
thought there was a point at which, our navy having at.
tabled to a position of sufficient superiority, it would be
well to pause in regard to laying down new line-of-battle
ships until the Admiralty had ascertained the effect of the
great charges effected lately in naval science. (Hear.)
Mr. W. WILLIAMS moved that the Chairman report
progress. (" Oh 1")
Lord P ALM E RSTON hoped that his hon. friend would
not press his motion, the universal wish of the committee
apparently being that some votes should be taken. (Hear.)
Mr. WILLIAMS would withdraw his motion on the un-
derstanding that no more speeches were to be made. (A.
laugh.)
Admiral WALCOTT thanked the noble lord (C. Paget)
for his perspicuous statement and the honesty of purpose
by which it was characterised, and said he derived ad-
ditional satisfaction in recognising in the gallant officer
one of his professional brethren and an ornament to the
service. (Hear.) He (Admiral-Walcott) fully admitted
the prudence of the measure taken to maintain our navy
in perfect strength and efficiency. Vigour disarmed hos-
tility and deterred a would-be opponent from breaking
the peace, whereas a timid policy only encouraged aggres-
sion. (Hear.) Last year he recommended the noble lord
to give the Surveyor of the Navy a higher position in the
service by making him an honorary member of the Board.
This change would entail no additional expense on the
country, and would enable the surveyor to give his opinions
with much greater freedom and effect than at present. He
also suggested that there were occasions when it would be
to the benefit of the service that a Board should be consti-
tuted, consisting of the most eminent men in every branch
of naval architecture, to meet from time to time and review
the suggestions made for the improvement of ship-building
by those who made it their study. With regard to the
personnel of the navy, it was only right that the officers
should be assured of certain rewards for the exhibition ofd
zeal and the perfect acquirement of professional knowledge,
while every promise made to the men should be rigidly
adhered to. Ho hoped he was to understand that the 2,000
boys mentioned by the noble lord were to be brought into
the service annually (" Hear," from Lord C. Paget) ; but
two ships were not sufficient for them. No more than 600
boys ought to be on board the same vessel. Had his
suggestions upon the service of boys been followed some
years ago, the present want of sailors would not have been
experienced. As to the relative strength of the Russian
and Punch navies, to which allusion had boon made, it
was of the highest importance, looking to the enormous
extent of the commerce, the remoteness of many of our
most valuable dependencies, the uncertainty of our political
relations, and the uncertainty also of peace, that our own
navy should be kept in the mist efficient state, for our
naval supremacy was a matter of life and death to this
country. With regard to the disturbances on board the
Princess Royal, he defended the conduct of Admiral
Bowles, than whom there was not in the profession a man

lanimated by more kindly sentiments, of greater experience,
gild more reliable judgment, and ens who had contributed
m ore largely in time and in money to forwari every in-
stitution likely to benefit the service. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. BENTINCE expressed his cmcurrence in the well-
merited tribute which had been paid to the able statement of
the noble Secretary to the Admiralty, and he was very glad
to find the estimates such as to afford the hope that the navy
was about to be placed on the footing it ought to be. his
noble friend said that there was an impression that the coun-
try did not get the lull value for the money expende t, Ite
believed that impression to be correct; and he was ofopinion
that the circumstance was owing to the system on which the
Board of Admiralty was constructed. Ills noble friend ad-
verted to a time when it might be possible to reduce the ex-
penditure for the navy, but, considering the state of affairs in
Europe, he looked forward to au incre ise rather than reduc-
tion of expense. Ile wished t.) know what steps had been
taken to supply the deficiency of naval hvtructors on board'
line-of-battle ships in commission.

•
General UPTON suggested that there should be an entry
of boys in the interior as well as at the poris.
Colonel DICKSON inquired whether there were no means
by which the ships of the Royal navy might be wade service-
able for the conveyance of troops.
Lord C. PAGET said arrangements were made for the sup-
ply of chaplains and naval instructors combined. The entry
of boys was not confine.' to the coast, and the Admir illy
would be very glad to receive them front the in:erior. With
respect to the conveyance of troops, men-of-war might be
used for that purpose, but the crews must first of all be
trained to discipline.
Mr. LINDSAY, thinking that the whole policy of the in-
crease in the estimates should be fully discussed, moved that
the Chairman report progress ; but, on an appeal from Mr. S. j
HERBERT, subsequentiy withdrew the motion.
The vote was then agreed to, as were also the following*:
£3,476,757, for the wages of seamen and marines.
X 1,458,087, for victuals.

„ _. . ..-.-.....
The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and the House re-
sumed.

PROBATE AND ADMINISTRATION (INDIA) BILL.
This Bill was read the third time and passed.
LAW OF PROPERTY BILL.
This Bill was read the second time.

The House adjourned a half-past 12 o'clock.

THE LATE SIR TrILLLim NAPIER.

The death of a good soldier and a great historian
Cannot be allowed to pass without special record.
Had William Francis Patrick Napier been simply
a titled survivor of the Peninsular war, he would
have figured with some Rote in the obituary of the
year, but his service in the field, gallant as it was,
has been eclipsed by his labours in the study, and
ho now stands, and will stand for ages, in the eyes
of his countrymen as the chronicler of their
country's greatest exploits. This literary celebrity,
the controversies by which it was attended, and
the renown concurrently acquired by other mem-
bers of the family, have served to identify the name
of Napier with the military glories of England, and
to familiarise the minds of thousands with that
prominent character whose departure from the
scene is this day announced.
Despite the remoteness which seems now to
characterise the figures of the great Duke's genera-
tion, Sir William Napier was not of very advanced
age. Though he entered the army in the last cen-
tury, and fought his last fight almost 50 years ago,
he was only 74 when he was overtaken by death.
In his days men began work early. The first of
his nine commissions found him a lad of fourteen,
and he was but little over twenty when he went to
that great war which he afterwards undertook to
describe. His extraction is remarkable enough to
deserve some mention, for one of his grandfathers
was actually the grandson of King Charles 11., and
the other succeeded to the family title while Marl-
borough was conducting the campaign of Ramifies.
In that year. 1706, a certain Francis Scott became
Lord Napier. By a first marriage hs. produced a
line of sons, from one of whom descended the pre-
sent Admiral Sir Charles Napier ; by a second
marriage he had a son named George. This
George, in the year 1781, took to wife the Lady
Sarah, daughter of the second Duke of Richmond,
great-granddaughter of the Second Charles, and
previously the wife of Sir Thomas Bunbury. From
that union there issued a progeny of heroes, of
whom William was the third.

Shortly after the young ensign's first appoint-
ment, certain military measures were adopted by
the Government, which produced results of an ex-
traordinary and probably unexpected kind. The
rupture of the peace of Amiens, and the renewal of
hostilities with France, had been signalised by a
menace of invasion on the part of Napoleon, more
overt and more formidable than any which had
preceded. The country was reasonably alarmed,
and took steps for its defence by building Martell°
towers along the south-eastern coast, and cutting
the Royal Military Canal between Folkestone and
Hythe. Fortunately, something else was done too.
On the heights above Sandgate, on the very place
where the Shorncliffo huts now stand, a small army
of observation was stationed, under the command
of Sir John Moore, and there, in a sort cf perma-
nent camp, of which the vestiges remained till the
other day, this force was trained and exerci•ted by
that able general, until the military genius of the
natio* acquired a development altogether new.
Among the tactical reforms introduced was one di-
rected to the improvement of light infantry as a de-
sirable arm of the service, and certain regiments in
particular were selected as the objects of this special
instruction. When, therefore, after the lapse of a
year or two the thunder-cloud on the heights of
Boulogne had been scattered, and the forces of Eng-
land rendered available for foreign campaigns, Sir
John Moore's picked corps appeared brigaded to-
gether in a distinct division. At first, perhaps, no
great importance was attached to the phenomenon,
though there must have been something striking
even in the aspect of these battalions, for Larpent,
when noting in his diary the arrival of troops in
the Peninsula, speaks particularly of a " light
corps" just come—" very fine; much thought of by
the ladies." After a very short time, however,
this " Light Division," with its constituent regi-
ments, the 43d, the 52d, and the 95th, acquired
and maintained such incomparable renown as to
attract the admiration of Eurepc. Among all

the divisions of the Peninsular army famous
though they were—this was the most distin-
guished; and in this, happily for himself and for
his History, young Napier served. Exchanges were
not so common in those days as at present, and it is
with the Light Division, and with the 43d Regi-
met of Foot, that Sir William's active services are
almost exclusively identified. The traces of this
intimrte conneciion are visible in every page of his
" Ilistory of tb• 'War," and one of the principal
charms, indeed, of the narrative arises from the
singular circumstantiality and vividness with which
every movement of this celebrated force is depicted.
Readers of all classes will remember the painting of
the story as the 95th—" Barnard's swarthy vete-
rans"—are brought into battle, or when the 43d,
not only in a mass but by companies, and even by
men, are ranged upon the field ; though the full
fervour of the historians's recollections seems to
have been reserved for the 52d, of which even in
his latest volume he speaks as " a regiment never
surpassed in arms since arms were first borne by
men."

If we say that the active service of Sir William
Napier was commensurate with the services of the
Light Division in the Peninsula, we shall have said
quite enough to define and establish his claims as a.
working soldier. It is true that he was in the ex-
pedition to Copenhagen in 1807, and that he was
not on the retired list in 1815, but the Peninsula is
the sphere of his duty and his experience ; nor did
he as an effective member of his profession ever
overstep tho capacity of a regimental officer. At
first his promotion was rapid ; but, though he
entered the war a captain, he left it only a lieut.-
colonel, and it was with this rank alone, and upon
the half-pay establishment of the 43d Foot, that he
made his first appearance before the public in the
new character of a military historian.
At what period of his career, or with what in-
ducements he originally conceived the design which
he executed so worthily we cannot say, but from
1824 to 1840 he was unremittingly engaged, as he
himself informs us, upon the History of the Pen-
insular War." That history had not yet been
satisfactorily written. The war itself, disparaged
at first, and but insufficiently appreciated even after
its final triumphs, invited a better pen than it
had found. The great Duke once entertained
the idea of becoming the historian of his own
campaigns, or, at any rate, bequeathing the
materials to his executors. Sir George Murray
also thought of entering the field, but Col. Napier
advanced beyond these preliminary conceptions.
He undertook the task, and accomplished it—with
what success Europe now knows. The merit of
this remarkable work is best and most comprehen-
sively expressed in the single fact of its popularity
and its fame ; for seldom has a book been com-
menced with less immediate promise of c'reulation
or favour. The author had a good military con-

nection, but he enjoyed as yet no literary position,
and so far was he from being recognised as the man
• for the task that a certain officer of rank on whom
he waited for information told him his production
would only be an ephemeral affair, and that elabo-
rate plans would be thrown away upon it. The
spirit, moreover, or as we may say the bias of the
work was directly opposed to the opinions of those
times. It offended Englishmen, for it assailed the
still dominant poll^y of Toryism, and conceded in-
finitely more credit to Napoli on, to his system, and
to his troops than the prejudices of the country had
yet allowed. It offended Spaniards, for it.brushed
away the brag of the nation, and reduced the en-
thusiasm and efforts of the patriot armies to dimen-
sions more consistent with fact. " I cared not,"
avowed the historian in his very preface, " to swell
my work with apocryphal matter, and neglected
the thousand winding currents of Spanish warfare

to follow that mighty stream of nigHalt battle

which burst the barriers of the Pvieru.cs, and left

deep traces of its fury on the soil of France."
Frenchmen it might possibly conciliate, for it re-

corded their military merits sik ith uncommon can-
dour, but to no other sympathies did it seem ad-
dressed ; and, above all, while depicting the war
and its•glories in unprecedented co:ours, it im-
peached the policy out of which the contest bad
arisen, and attacked the spirit in which it was
conducted. Opinions like these brought on the
author's head a perfect storm of obloquy, which,
with the family genius for improving a contro-
versy, he contrived rather to aggravate than as-
suage. He was accused not only of professional
incapacity under a thousand forms, but of poli-
tical and almost moral heresies without number,
Among other imputations, he, the grandson o:
peer and the great-great-grandson of a King, found
himself charged with a malignant and democratic
hostility to aristocratic birth—an attack which he
quietly repelled by observing that he was at least
as nobly connected as the people he was said to be
decr3 ing.
It can hardly be denied that the " History of the
Peninsular War" did really present indications of

a distinct, and for those tirnes an unusual. bias.

Its opening sentence, for example, might almost

have figured in a certain, pamphlet of Mr. Cobden,

and its comparative delineations of French and
English systems might possibly have been considered

unnational, as nationality had been recently under-

stood. But so to regard the work was to be blind
to its real import and character ; nor was the in-

stinctive acuteness of the public long in discovering
the truth. However the author might be infected

with the heresy of political opposition, his charac-

teristic dedication of his work to the Duke, and
the genuine sentiments with which its every page
was underlaid, soon proved that its real and sole

object was to erect a fitting monutnent of British
glory as achieved by British arms. That was the

aim of the historian, and as the development of the
history showed it gradually and triumphantly at-
tained, the angry clamours of the Strangfords,
the Beresfords, and the Percevals were left to die

unheededly away. Against the current of popular
and political prejudice, the work forced its way by
its intrinsic fascinations to the summit of public
favour. It is not, in reality, either constructed
composed on a popular model. It is by no means
easy reading, and, though not a purely military
history, is technical in its details and severe in its
style. It is a work which at first sight would be
thought likely to commend itself to ordinary readers
desirous of learning how the great war in the Penin-
sula was fought,
.and yet, though these obstacles

were to be encountered on the threshold, and

though the ground had been occupied by.
favourite and attractive writers, the supra-

macy of Napier's History soon became incon-

testable.

The truth is, bes'cies the genuine

nationality of its object and its tone, there
was a dignity in the treatment and a Hying

verity in the descriptions which led the mind un-
resistingly captive. Never before had such scenes
been portrayed, nor with such wonderful colouring.
As event after event was unfolded in the panorama,
not only the divisions and the brigades, but the very
regiments and regimental officers of the Peninsular
army became familiarised to the public eye.
Marches, combats, and battles came out upon the
canvas with the fidelity of photographs. while the
touches by which the effect was produced bespoke,
not the ingenuities of historic art, but the involun-
tary suggestions of actual memory. The shrillness
of Crawfurd's scream at Busaco as he ordt rod the
Light Division to charge was probably ringing in
I the author's ears as he wrote ; and the whole scene

upon the Coa, with the little drummer boy beating
the charge, the French officer, " in a splendid uni-
form," leaping on the lnidge, and the surgeon tend-
ing the wounded in the midst of the fire, must have
risen before his eyes as he drew it. For the sake
of painting like this—for the take of rn eloquence
unknown before, anal devoted unreservedly to the
recompense of British valour, people readily for;ave
the prepossessions or deficiencies of the work. If
its spirit was haughty, it was also so national and
so public that the very haughtiness was becoming;
if its style trenched upon bombast, such loftiness of
language did but correspond with the grandeur
and heroism of the deeds described ; and when the
magnificence of its diction culminated into sublimity
in the stories of Albuera and Badajez, every reader
felt that the theme and the treatment were consis-
tent with each other.

The completion of this extraordinary work not
only established Col. Napier's fame as an authof,
but contributed probably, in conjunction with the
brilliant services of his brother Charles,
to improve
even his professional position. He had indeed
earned in the fair discharge of military duty all the
promotien, which now overtook him, for he had
borne an active and distinguished part throughout
a protracted war, and was justly entitled to the
gradual advancement reserved for its survivors.
Still, it can hardly be doubted that the brother
of Sir Charles Napier and the historian of
the Peninsular war commanded a greater respect
than would have been paid to the half pay officer
of the 43d, and when the red riband of the Bath
and the colonelcy of a regiment was added to the
promotions arriving by seniority the public was
gratified at the recognitions evinced. Yet Sir
William Napier remained Napier still, and clashed
against the opinions of men as rudely in his later
as in his earlier days. As the Light Division ac-
counts for one period of his life, and his " History"
for a second, so his advocacy of Sir Charles Napier's
excellence in every capacity may be taken for the
business of a third. The spirit of the family has
been uniformly clannish, in excess even of the
Scottish standard, but Sir -William's devotion to
the reputation of his brother is almost without a
parallel. On this point he would brook
in India,
in at any hands. In the lonian Islands,
ahe
in the command of a home district—wherever
whatever Sir
Charles Napier was stati he
hiasntodri no f the war
did ; his acts were right.
in the Peninsula oven resumed his pen, for his
brother's sake, to write the " Conquest of Sande,"
oln'd'
and so wholly must his heart have been in the task
that his alleged preference of this work to his great
achievement is not quite incredible. Even when
the life and services of Sir Charles had terminated
together,rave,
Sir William still stood champion over his
g
and at the most critical period of Indian
debates his chief anxiety was •for the reputation of
his brother, which in these discussions he thought
might possibly be impugned. How little measure
he observed in the controversies which this devo-
, lion provoked—bow repulsively he treated the
consideration which all were ready to bestow we
need not stop to remark. His labours and his
quarrels are now ended, and as Sir Charles's death
proved the signal for the universal oblivion of his
faults, and the unqualified recognition of his vir-
tues, so with the life of Sir William will all those
acrimonies cease which his intractable pen was but
too apt to occasion. The public will forget the
controversialist, or remember hint only to reflect
that even in the least fortunate of) tis encounters he
never proposed to himself an unio orthy aim. The
image which will remain impret sed upon its
me-
mory is that of a noble soldier w. ho did his duty in
one of England's greatest wars, and who after-
, wards redoubled this service b, raising for his
country an imperishable monum' 3nt of the glory she
. had acquired.-7intes.