The Sun.
London, England, 1860-05-08 00:00:00

what fell from me would have done well to add had
they recollected it. I frankly own, referring to the sim-
ple and arbitrary discretion given to magistrates, that this
bill was drawn with an almost unlimited desire to give them
every possible power to decide matters of fact, and required
only honesty and intelligence to give it effect. And
I do say that the provisions of the bill, as they stand, are so
stringent that I believe I shall find it necessary to limit
and restrain them. There is an old fable, called, I believe,
the " Vision of Hercules," which is in point. When Her-
cules was young he dreamt that he came to a certain point
of the road, where he was met by two figures—one the
figure of Virtue, and the other the figure of Vice. He was
solicited by Virtue to go ono way and by Vice to go an-
other. We are in the position of Hercules, as we are en-
countered by two figures of Virtue and Vice. But, instead
of Virtue soliciting us to go one way and Vice to go an
other, we have both Virtue and Vice leagued against us—
(hear and laughter)—both standing across the road and
refusing to allow us to proceed. (Hear.) I know the vir-
tuous motives of those who support the temperance move-
ment—(hear)—which the hon member for Marylebone
(Mr. James) has manfully thrown overboard in his speech.
The arguments used are a group of assumptions fastened
together, which it is difficult to separate and to deal with.
We are told that the use of wine is to be considered exactly
as that of ardent spirits. These practical philosophers will
not condescend to draw any distinction; they have invented
phrases, " alcoholic liquids," " intoxicating liquids," and
such like; but my' right hon. friend the member for Ox-
fordshire could readily show them the fallacy of mixing up
things which are so distinct. There is a difference between
the lighter wines of Northern Europe and the gin which
is consumed in rivers in our great towns. Some one has
given us a deplorable description of the drunkenness that pre-
vails in France, and I begin to think that no English tra-
veller could hive made a proper use of his oyes. However, I
have found a testimony which is entitled to great weight,
coming from a man pledged by his sacred profession, eminent
for his eloquence, distinguished and beloved for all his vir-
tues—Dr. Guthrie. (Hear.) That gentleman before he de-
voted himself to his present calling resided for some time on
the continent, and in one of his sermons he says he was in
Brussels and Paris duringperiods of great national festivity
and that he did not see in seven weeks as much drunkenness
in those capitals as he would meet with in seven short hours •
in London, Edinburgh, or any other of our large towns.
(Hear.) That, Sir, is the testimony of an impartial witness.
I hail() spoken of the fable of Virtue and Vice ; and I appeal
from them to what I call the common sense of the Douse of
Commons and of the country at large. I was lately staying
at the house of a magistrate in the country, and one day he
told me he had been assisting in adjudicating on an appli-
cation for a licence for a new public-house in the village of
So and So ; and that they had not granted it. I asked him
why. He said they did not grunt it because there were two
public-houses in the village already. I believe the magis-
trates were anxious to do their duty. I said to him, " Was
the, man who applied for the new licence a person' of bad
character ?" He said, "No." I asked if the two men who
had a licence already were of good character. He replied,
on, the contrary, that they were men of very bad character.
(A laugh.) So, then, I said to him, because two men who
are already in possession of a licence in the village are per-
sons of bad character, you must refuse it to a third, who is
a man of good character. (Cheers.) The present system
has this for its main characteristics—that it creates a com-
pound interest in the trade, requiring of the publican capital
not only to carry on his business, but likewise by way of
advance, in the first instance, for that licence of which he
comes into possession as a monopolist, and so placing him un-
der a double pressure to stimulate the use of strong liquors. Is
it possible to conceive a system that could more effectually
paralyse the arm of magisterial power than this ? (Hear.)
There is no amendment of this bill which I would not be
glad to consider, except that which would recreate and re-
produce the mischiefs of a proprietary interest in the licenses.
(Hear.) There has recently been brought before the
public one of those excessively rare cases in which the re-
newal of a licence to a public-house has been refused.
The case came before the Middlesex magistrates, when the
inhabitants of an entire neighbourhood petitioned for the
refusal of the renewal of licenses to two persons who had
been originally pugilists and then publicans. (Hear, hear.)
The consequence of these persons having got licenses was
that the neighbourhood became the scene of continual dis-
order, and the case was so extreme that the renewal of the
licenses was refused. (Hear, hear.) The hon. and learned
member for Marylebone told the magistrates plainly that
when the licenses were originally given they must have
known the men who had made application for them,; and
yet these are the kind of men who are considered fit, under
the present system, to be armed with licenses, and who,
when they get licenses, are hedged and fenced about with
every obstacle that can interfere to prevent the right
,dis-
charge of magisterial duties. (Hear, hear.) That is the
system we have now before us, and, if the last hand were
wanted to be put to it, that hand was put when you in-
vented a scheme by which the sale of spirits was kept apart
from the sale of victuals ; and you permitted any kind of
amusement to be carried on in the houses to which your
licenses were given. (Hear, hear.) It is this system we
wish to modify, we wish to exclude that arbitrary discre-
tion which makes the magistrates the judges of the num-
ber of hguses and the quantity of liquor that ought to satisfy
the demands of a district. (Hear, hear.) Not because we
distrust the magistrates, but because it is beyond the power
of man to regulate such matters. (Hear, hear.) And we
think there is great virtue and hope in giving an opening
for the consumption of those lighter wines which have now
for the first time during many generations obtained some-
thing like justice in the arrangements of the British tariff,
and in endeavouring to bring into union those two opera-
tions of eating and drinking which it has been the practical
effect of our system to dissever. (Hear, hear.) T hat is the
question on which we must vote to-night, and, believing as
I do that the rejection of this bill will cause great dissatis-
faction in the country, and likewise believing that it is
well entitled to the approval of the House of Commons, I
confidently anticipate for it a favourable verdict. (Hear.)
After a few words from Mr. NEWDEGATE, and loud cries
for a division, .
The house divided. The numbers were :--
For the second reading
Against .
.. 193
Majority
The numbers *ere received with cheering. —74
The bill was then read a second time.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said hon.
members ware aware that in the bill, as it now stood, the
licences were printed in italics, and would not, in fact, form
part of it, until agreed to in Committee of Ways and Means.
He hoped, therefore, that they would permit him to go into
Committee of Ways and Means at once. The licences could
be discussed on the first clause of the bill.
Mr. NEWDEGA.TE and Mr. AYE.TON objected to the course
proposed.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER refrained
from pressing his request against the wish of the house.
He proposed to go into Committee of Ways and Means on
Thursday, before going into Committee on the Wine
Licences Bill.

- CENSUS (IRELAND) BILL.
This bill was reads second time.
The other orders were then disposed of, and the house
adjourned at one o'clock.