The Sun.
London, England, 1860-07-27 00:00:00

(74.727, 1860,

might smile and shake his head, but even he would agree .1
that such was the case. If the Government postponed the
discus Hon for a moment longer than was necessary it would •
look very much as if they preferred passing the measure
through an empty house rather than a full one.._
Mr. MALINS also hoped the Government would dis-
tinctly state what bills they intended to pass this session.
Sir G. • GREY said that the question as to what bills
should be passed this session had been practically answered
by the discharge of several orders last week, namely, the
Bankruptcy Bill, the London Corporation Reform Bill,
the Highway Bill, the Scotch Wine Licenses Bill. (Here
a MS. list of bills was handed to the right hon. gentleman,
who commenced reading,—Saving Banks Bill, Corruption
Practices Act Amendment Bill, Irish Poor-law Continu-
ance Bill; but the mention of the last named was received
with much laughter, and convinced the right hon. gentle-
man that there was some mistake.) B owever, continued
the right hon. baronet, the reason why the Companies Bill
was deferred was, that this was the last day on which bills,
except money bills, and others of urgent importance, could
be sent up to the Lords, and this measure had come down
from the Lords. With regard to the measure of the hon.
member for Dundalk, he would suggest that private mem-
bers generally looked to Wednesday's paper, and on Wed-
nesday next he found there was nothing on the paper but
the Attorneys Bill.
Sir J. PAKINGTON said the house had reason to com-
plain of the conduct of the Government in reference to the
business on the paper. The noble lord had promised to
come down and state what bills would be proceeded with,
and what would not. It was extremely inconvenient to have
a long list of orders before them every night, and not know
which would be proceeded with. But be still more com-
plained of the conduct of the noble lard in reference to the
discussion on the paper duty. Repeated promises had been
made by the noble lord, by the Chancellor of the Exchequer)
and by Lord J. Russell, that a day should be named fo
this discussion; but this had not been done until now. He
suspected there was some truth in the allegation that the
Government were desirous to postpone the discussion until

the house was as thin as possible. (Cheers from the Oppo-
sition.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the Savings Bank Bill was virtually disposed of, except with
regard to one point. It was said that it was impossible to
have a good attendance on the 6th of August. This was not'
so; he had Aeen an excellent attendance on the 3d of Sep-
tember. The Chancellor of the Exchequer was not respon-
sible for the delay of the paper duty question ; every mem-
ber of a Government was anxious to bring on his own mea-
sures first. This was a question which had attracted so much
public attention that it could not be disposed of in an hour
or two; it would require an entire evening; and the Go-
veinment had selected the earliest unbroken evening they
could reckon on. There was no earlier day at liberty. On
Monday the subject of fortifications came on; the discussion
might extend to Thursday ; and Friday, with the experience
they had recently had—(a laugh)—could not be considered
an unbroken evening. Believing that the house would be
anxious to come to a decision on the fortification question
next week, the Government proposed to keep open Monday
and Thursday for that purpose. Tuesday was not at their
disposal ; and therefore Tuesday week was the earliest day
which could with certainty be fixed for the discussion of the
paper duty. (Hear, hear.)
Sir H. CAIRNS thought it desirable that the fortifica-
tion debate, if not concluded on Monday, should be re-
sumed on Tuesday. He believed that those members who
had notices on the paper for_ Tuesday would give way.
To prove their sincerity let the Government put down the
paper duty conditionally for Thursday. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. BRIGHT believed there was much difficulty in
arranging these matters at the end of a session ; he had
always found it to be the case. (Hear, hear.) He hoped
that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would not postpone
the paper duty question beyond the 6th of August. It was
a question between three-quarters and seven-eighths of a
penny : and it was most important that the question should
be settled, because at this moment paper .hangings were
coming in, under the treaty, at the low rate of duty, and
competing with our own heavily taxed paper. (Hear, hear.)
It was most essential that the house should carry out the
terms of tLe treaty to which they had already agreed, and
addressed the Queen in its favour. (Hear, hear.)
Sir L. PALK considered that the Government had
treated the house very unfairly. (Oh, oh.) The house was
willing to concede all the noble lord required ; they only
asked that the earliest possible day should be fixed for the
discussion of the paper duty. The session had begun much
earlier than usual, and it was likely to be more barren of
result than any former session.
Mr. HORSMAN thought the Government ought to have
adhered to their original proposition—of making next Tues-
day a Government day. He would suggest the adjournment
of this debate till next day. What surprised him was that
the question of the paper duty should be treated so dif-
ferently at the beginning and at the end of the session.
The Government were first in favour of a free .trade in
paper ; now their views were different. This was a question
in which one and a half million of revenue were concerned ;
it ought not to be delayed until the 6th of August without
very sufficient reason. (Hear, hear.) They had now
arrived at the 26th of July. They had seen one important
measure after another defeated, and the Government sub-
mitting to those defeats with an insensibility which was
most extraordinary. (Cheers from the Opposition.) The
only question was, how long the House of Commons would
suffer these irregularities to continue, which were most de-
grading to all parties, and damaging to the house.
Sir G. C. LEWIS said that the charge brought by the
hon. member was a most singular one. He would call the
attention of the house to a few facts. The hon. member for
Buckingham had given notice of a question with respect to
the loan of 1855, when he (Sir George) was Chancellor of
the Exchequer. Had he declined to answer that question,
he presumed either that his refusal would have been consi-
dered discourteous or churlish, or it would have been said
that he was ignorant of the matter to which it related.
(Hear.) He had, therefore, thought it his duty—the ques-
tion relating to a matter of fact of which he had sufficient
cognisance—to answer that question. What there was ir-
regular, improper, or unconstitutional in that he could not
see. (Hear.) If he had not answered the question he
though he might then be exposed to the censure of the
house.
Mr. B. JOHNSTONE thought that long speeches were
the cause of the backwardness of public business. (Hear.)
Any private member might state what he had to say in 20
minutes, and if he went beyond that he ought not to have
the ear of the house. (Hear 4 Ministers and ex-ministers
might be unlimited in the time they occupied., (Laughter,
and cries of " Oh, oh.")
Mr. TIORSMiiN said he intended to move the adjourn-
ment of the debate. (Cries of " Too late.")
Lord. J. RUSSELL said he understood that what the
members of that house particularly wished with regard to
the paper•duty question, to which they attached extreme
importance, was that there should be certainty as to the
time at which it would be brought on. (Hear, hear.) His
noble friend naturally considered how that certainty could
be obtained, and he was certain that on Monday, the 6th of
August, this question could be brought on. The hon. and
learned member for Belfast proposed a mode which was full
of uncertainties and contingencies, namely, the adjourn-
ment of the question from day to
,day. Suppose the debate
on the fortifications took up more than Monday night they
could not calculate upon those members who had motions
for Tuesday giving way to the Government so as to con-
tinue the debate. The 'hon. and learned member thought
that they would not persist, but those members might attach
great importance to those motions and might persist in
bringing them on. If then there was uncertainty on Mon..
day night and uncertainty about Tuesday night, to fix the
question of the paper duties for Thursday on the chance
that they might come on on that day, would, in his opinion,
be putting the members of the house to greater inconveni-
ence than if they fixed a day when that subject could be
brought on with certainty. (Hear, hear.) Some weeks ago
it had been said that the postponement of tha civil service
estimates was unprecedented, but now there seemed to be
no care about votes in committee of supply, or about the
civil service estimates ; and all their attention ought to be
given to the paper duties. Last year the right hon. gentle.-
man the member for Stroud was quite impatient on the sub-
ject of fortifications, but he now seemed indifferent on the
matter, and blamed the Government because they did not
make the expenditure one of the usual votes in supply.
(No, no.) But his noble friend having adopted the prin-
ciple of the scheme for which the right hon. gentleman was
so anxious last year, he now gave up all care about that
subject; his whole attention was given to the paper duties,
and to lecturing the Ministry for the Fay in which they
conducted the public business. (Hear, hear.) It might
be that the official career of the right hon. gentleman was
so brilliant—(laugh'er)—that he was entitled to
look down upon all others from a great distance, but other-
wise no member of the house could give lectures to the Mi-
nisters. (Hear.) If hon. gentlemen gave up the motions
they had for Tuesday night the Government had no objec-
tion to fix the paper duty question for that day.
Sir W. MILES was astonished the Primo Minister had
not fixed the earliest possible day for the discussion of the
paper duty question. If an appeal was made to those mem-
bers who had motions for Tuesday he felt confident they
would give way.
Sir G. GREY—WIy not say so ? (Hear.)
Sir W. MlLES—Because they had not been .asked.
(Hear.) lie believed that there was plenty of time between
this and Tuesday to come to an arrangement with those
members, and therefore begged leave to move that the de-
bate be adjourned.
Mr. MILNES said that an hon. friend of his had an im-
portant motion for Tuesday, and he did not think he was at
all likely to give way, especially as Tuesday was the last
night on which private members could make motions.
After a few words from Sir H. Cairns and Mr. Horsman
in explanation, and also from Sir J. Elphinstone,
Mr. DISRAELI said he did not think it would be expe-
dient to adjourn the debate, and ho therefore would recom-
mend his hon. friend not to press his motion, although he
believed Thursday would be a more convenient day for the
disonssien of the paper duties than Monday.
Sir W. MILES having withdrawn his amendment, the
motion was agreed to.

EUROPEAN FORCES (INDIA) BILL.
On tUe motion for going into committee on the European
Forces (India) Bill,

Mr, HENNESSY moved that it be an inetvaction to the

committee that the half of all vacancies to be filled up in
the ranks of the European commissioned officers of her Ma-
jesty's' line or local troops serving in India be allotted to
the sons or orphans of officers, line or local, or the sons or
orphans of her Majesty's civil service in India, who have
served in India, and who shall have passed the prescribed
examination, and that the remaining vacancies be filled up
by open competition, the successful competitors to pass
through one of the royal military colleges.
Mr. S. HERBERT, in reply, urged that the proposal
would extend the system of giving commissions in a man-
ner out of all proportion to the advantages to the service
which would be derived from it. He showed that since the
last war the allotment of commissions without purchase had
increased to a very large amount.
After some remarks from Colonel SYKES,
Mr. M. MILNES called attention to the protest gi Mr.
Willoughby, one of the members of the Indian Council,
against the proposed plan of the Government.
Sir DE L. EVANS supported the motion, and pointed
out that the Secretary for War had for the first time intro-
duced the word "purchase" in connexion with the Indian
army.
Sir E. COLEBROOKE thought the plan of the hon.
gentleman would interfere with the existing claims of
officers in the Indian army, and would deprive them of the
provision made for them in the act of 1858. Still, though
there were objections to it, yet on the whole if the rights of
these Officers were not interfered with he should support
the motion. •
Sir C. WOOD assured his hon. friend who had just sat
down that no intention whatever existed of depriving the
cfficers to whom he alluded of any rights they possessed
under the bill of 1858. Those claims were not only just,
' but secured to them by Act of Parliament.
The house then divided, when the numbers were—
For the motion
Against it

Majority —sB
Sir. J. ELPHINSTONE moved that it be an instruction
to the committee that they have power to make provision
for the future regulation, discipline, and patronage of the
European forces serving in India. He argued in favour of
the maintenance of a local European force in India, quot-
ing statistics to show the advantages of an acclimatised
force, locally officered, and adducing the opinions of a num-
ber of officers and gentlemen of great experience of Indian
affairs. He pointed out that the existing local army, of
which 26,000 still remained, were re •enlisted since the
mutiny, on the terms that they were to be a purely local
force, and not liable to serve anywhere but in India; and
the proposed amalgamation would violate that engagement,
and probably have the same• effect on the men as the at-
tempt at transferring them from the Company's to the
Queen's service had produced amongst them.
Sir DE L. EVANS and Sir M. FANQUHAR having ad-
dressed the house at great length,
Mr. ROEBUCK moved the adjournment of the debate.
Lord PALMERSTON, referring to the length at which
the discussion had been carried on, expressed his readiness
to sit till Christmas in order to pass this bill.
Mr. HORSMAN assured the noble lord that he would
not be able to joke away the opposition to the bill. He
wished to know what interest was involved in this measure,
when all other measures of importance had been thrown
over by a Government which, contrary to all precedent, had
retained their places. He did not doubt that the Govern-
ment would find that they could not now over-ride opposi-
tion as they had done in February last, and he had no
doubt that this measure would eventually be abandoned.
Mr. M. MILNES expressed his regret at being obliged
to oppose the Government, but he felt bound to resist this
dangerous and unsatisfactory measure.
Mr. J. B. SMITH said that he had come to the consi-
deration of this question with a prejudice against anything
which had been connected the East India Company, but the
arguments he had heard had changed his opinion, and he
believed that if the gentlemen who had formed the Govern.
ment majority on previous stages of the bill would read the
papers that majority would fall away. He suggested the
postponement of the measure till next year.
After a few words from Col. SYKES and Mr. NEWDEGATE,
The debate was then adjourned to this day.
EAST INDIA STOCK TRANSFER BILL.
Sir C. WOOD moved the second reading of this bill, re-
serving the consideration of its details until the house went
into committee.
Mr. VANSITTART said that unless the 20th clause,
with reference to a large portion of the stock of the com-
pany, was omitted, he should oppose the second reading.
Sir C. WOOD said the 20th clause would be omitted.
After a few words from Sir H. WILLOUGHBY, the bill
was read a second time.
SENIOR MEMBER OF COUNCIL (INDIA) BILL.
Sir. C. WOOD, in moving the second reading of this
bill, said the object of it was to empower the senior member
of Council to preside in the absence of the Governor-Gene-
ral, in regular order of precedence.
The bill was then read a second time.
SUPERANNUATION ACT (1859) BILL.
This bill was read a second time.
ADMIRALTY JURISDICTION BILL.
This bill was also read a second time.
THEATRES AND PUBLIC-HOUSES BILL.
On the motion of Sir G. C. LEWIS, the order for the
house to resolve itself into committee on this bill was dis-
charged.
The Spirits Bill and Spirits Duties Bill were postponed
to Monday.

EXCISE DUTIES BILL.
The house went into committee pro forma on this bil
CLEARANCES INWARD AND LIEN FOR
FREIGHT BILL.

On the motion that this bill as amended be considered,
Mr. J. LOCKE said strong objection was entertained to
the clause in the bill transferring the power to ;the dock
companies to warehouse all goods cleared inward. He
moved that the clause be struck out.

Mr. CAVE defended the clause, and saicYthat the mer-
chants of London had supported the bill. g
After some discussion the amendment was negatived.
Mr. AYRTON opposed another clause, with the view of
preventing the twenty-four hours' running against the
consignee before the ship had reached her moorings.
The house divided, and the numbers were—
For the clause
Against it
Majority

The bill was then ordered to be read a third time this day,
POOR-LAW BOARD CONTINUANCE BILL.

This bill was read a third time and passed.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT SUPPLEMENTAL (No. 2,
BILL.

This bill was read a third time and passed.
CENSUS (SCOTLAND) BILL.'
The house considered this bill, as amended, and it was
ordered to be read a third time this day.
CORRUPT PRACTICES PREVENTION ACT (1851)

CONTINUANCE BILL.
This bill passed through committee.

OFFENCES AGAINST THE PERSON BILL.
This bill passed through committee.

lONIAN ISLANDS MARRIAGES BILL.
This bill passed through committee.
HACKNEY CARRIAGES (METROPOLIS) ACT

AMENDMENT BILL.
The bouse went into committee on this bill.
Mr. AYRTON moved that the Chairman leave the chair.
The house divided, and there appeared—
For the motion 36
Against it
Majority
The bill was therefore lost.

RIFLE VOLUNTEER CORPS.
The house went into committee on this bill, the several
clauses of which were agreed to, and the house resumed.
SALE OF GAS ACT AMENDMENT (No. 2) BILL.
This bill passed through committee.
The house adjourned at a quarter past two o'clock.

RETURN OF THE REV. MR. SPURGEON.—In con-
sequence of the impaired state of the rev. gentleman's health
from the severe exertions to which he had been subjected
by his clerical duties, Mr. Spurgeon, it will be remembered,
determined some time ago upon making a continental tour.
During his travels he passed through France, Belgium,
th 9 minor States of Germany, and the principal places on
the Rkine, afterwards visiting Switzerland. At Geneva
he preached twice to large congregations, and such was the
interest created by his sermons they were translated into
German and French, and the congregational authorities
immediately voted him a medal of Calvin, in commemoration
of his visit to that city. After a visit to Mont Blanc, and
the Mer de Glace, the rev. gentleman proceeded to Mar-
tig,ny and the Simplon Pass, which enabled him to visit
Milan, and thence on to Mantua, Verona, &c., to Venice,
where ho stopped five days, returning home by the Splugen
Pass. We are happy to state that the rev. gentleman Vas
arrived in England in excellent health and good spirits, and
will resume his duties at Exeter Hall on Sunday morning
next at the usual time.

QUITE RESIGNED.—" My dear Julia," said one
pretty girl to another, "can you make up your mind to
marry that odious Mr. Snuff ?' —" Why, my dear Mary,"
replied Julia, "I believe I could take him at a pinch!"
GRIMSTONE'S EYE SNUFF.—A certificate proving the
virtues of this snuff, from Dr. Ure, M.D., F.R.S., 25, Keppel-
' street, Russell-square : " I hereby certify that the eye-snuff
invented and manufactured by Mr. Wm. Grimstone, of the
Herbary, Highgate, is quite free from tobacco and composed
of herbs, capable of exciting mildly the pituitary glands,
without exercising any subsequent narcotic action on the op-
tical organs. This snuff is therefore adapted to relieve cod.
gestions affecting the brain and the vision.—Andrew tire,
F.R.S., professor of chemistry and analytical chemist."
1" The above is the result of an analysis of Grimstone's eye
snuff, requiled by the Spanish Consul-General (Marquis
Bayamo, &c.), to free this snuff from tobacco (pity in the
none
are,medicines
ereh are more
efficient Spanish dominions.
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