The Sun.
London, England, 1856-02-19 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 19. 18 56,

Commissariat which came under a branch of the sa.viee
under Lord Panmure, and had not therefore been pre-
sented to the ricr3e Guardq. That was completel in
January, and by Lord Panmure's orders were imme-
diately printed for circulation, and if any delay had oc-
curred between the presentation of the two reports it
must have been inconsiderable.
Col. NORTH asked the Under Secretary for War
whether the whole of the reports of the commissioners
had been published ?
Mr. PEEL. said there was no intention on the part
of the authorities to present the reports in any ether
1 form to the house. (Laughter.)
Mr. ROEBUCK observed that that was no answer to
the hon. and gallant gentleman's question. (Hear.)
\ Lord W. GRAHAM gave notice that he should re-
peat the question to-morrow.

Captain 23d Fusiliers, to be Lieutenant, vice Arkwrigbt,
resigned ; Frederick John Graniille, Gent., to be Ensign ;
Frederick Blake, Gent., to be Ensign.
Brocknock Royal Riffe Regiment of Militia—Lieutenant
Arthur Wilks Ludlow Gompertz to be Captain, vica
Breroton' appointed Adjutant; Ensign Frederick George
Mogg to be Lieutenant, vice Gumpertz, promoted.
11,yal Perthshire Rifle Militia—Ensign Warham St.
Leger Denim to be Lieutenant, vice Condie, promoted.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT the whole system, than the transfer of the business of that
1-court.tp the Court of Chancery. He believed that the In-
cumbered Estates Court must be retained for a time, and
that the Government would have to give way on that •
point. The hon. gentleman then referred to the reforms in
the Court of Chancery four years ago, which elope pre-
vented that court from being swept away, and which had
waked so well that the Court of Chancery was fast ap-
proaching to perfection, for bath causes and appeals were
heard with great expedition. lie should be glad to see
the same machinery applied to the Court of Chancery in
Ireland, and therefore it would be with reluctance he
should oppose the second reading of this bill. Seine of
the provisions of the bill were most extraordinary, and
especially those which proposed to give the patronage of
the officers of the judges to the Lord-Lieutenant—that
is, to the Government of the day. It had been found to
be of the greatest possible advantage in this country
that the Master of the Rolls and the Vice-Chancellors
should have the choice of their own officers, while if the
choice were left in the hands of the Government fitness
would not lee the only thing considered. Again, he
objected to the provision declaring that the chief clerks
should be barristers, and not solicitors, as in England ;
and he was afraid that arose from the question of pa-
tronage again. He also objected to the Court of Chan-
cery being made a great conveyancing machine, with-
out reference to whether estates were incumbered or
not, which would require a machinery consisting of
as many conveyancing counsel as there would* be
clerks in the court. In the difficulty in which he
was placed he could only hope that the Solicitor-Ge-
reral for Ireland would accept the suggestion which
had been made for sending this bill, as well as those
of the hon. and learned member for Euniskillen, to a se-
lect committee. Unless that course was pursued he (Mr.
MalMs) must reluctantly vote against the second read-
ing of the bill.
Mr. H. HERBERT supported the second reading of
the bill, on the ground that it was recommended in a re-
port which was sanctioned by Sir J. Romilly, the author
of the Incumbered Estates Court Act, which had been so
beneficial to Ireland, and of which he (Mr. Herbert) had
been one•of the warmest supporters. He thonght that
when the principle of the Incumbered Estates Court had
effected so much good in the cases of estates which had
been incumbered, the same advantage and simplicity of
transfer should be applied to unincumbered estates.
Mr. CAIRNS said that if the reasons which actuated
the commissioners in making the recommendations con-
tained in the report were not capable of being made clear
and satisfactory to the members of the houle generally,
there was to reason why they should commend them-
selves to the house, or why the house should adopt the
views which the commissioners took of the question.
The commissioners began by endeavouring to procure
every kind of information with regard to the matters on
which they had to form an opinion. After taking that
evidence the commissioners called a meeting here, at
which they had the assistance of SirJ. Romilly, to whom
the Incumbered Estates Court in a great measure owed
its existence, of Mr.Longfield, and Mr. Blackburn, who
perhaps was more conversant with matters pertaining to
the improvement of Ireland than any man living. They
all agreed that the Incumbered Estates Court did infinite
benefit. (Hear.) It was made quite clear to them that
landlords obtained a better market for their land through
I the instrumentality of that court than they could else-
where. The commissioners therefore came to The con-
clusion that the court could not be abolished, but that,
on the contrary, it was necessary for the welfare of Ire-
land; and expedient for Great Britain at large, that it
should be continued; But they did not stop there, for
they had to consider whether its powers should not be
extended, because it was shown to them that though the
Incumbered EStates Court could do everything with re-
gard to the sale, there were other matters which were
not within the jurisdiction of the court, and which it was
necessary to send to the Court of Chancery or a court of
common law for adjudication. They also found that the
Incumbered Estates Court carried on its business in an
obscure street in Dublin, where the suitors could not
have that complete professional aid which they might
desire. They therefore recommended that the situation
of the court should he removed. They were next told
by the Incuinbered Estates Commissioners themselves
that their staff was insufficient, and therefore it would
be necessary to add considerably to the staff of the court.
Having, then, come to the conclusion that the court was
to be retained, that a new situation and premises were
to be provided., that an increased staff was to be found,
ill of which would require legislation and expenditure,
they had next to consider this further question, why the
powers of the court should not be extended to the sale of
unincumbered as well as to incumbered estates. The com-
plaints on this head reached the commissioners from vari-
ous parts and in the most unmistakeable manner. -His
bon. and learned friend the member for Enniskillen
challenged any to prove that estates had been incum-
bered with fictitious incumbrances fit the purpose of
having them sold in the Incumbered Estates Court. Of
course any person who did so would not be candid
enough to tell it, or to give the circumstances of the
case, but there was plenty of evidence from professional
men to show that such things had been done. If it were
material no doubt the names and circumstances could be
obtained; but even if no such cases existed, there was no
reason for not extending the powers of the court to min-
cumbered estates, if it was right in itself. He would
put the following case :—An estate worth 100,000/ ,
which was incumbered to one-half its value, was sold,
and the court, after distributing the 50,000/. to the in-
, cumbrancers, ascertained the title of the owner, and
gave him the other 50,0001., and there the matter
ended. Why should not the court have the power of
dealing with an unincumbered estate worth 100,000/. as
it dealt with the 50,000/, which remained alter the sale
of the incumbered estate worth also 100,000/. (Hear,
hear.) That was the whole question. Supposing they
gave these extended powers to the Incumbered Estates
Court, and brought it by the side of the Court of Chan-
cery, the result would be; that they would have two
Courts of ChanceryeetheeCourt of Chancery with the
powers of the Incumbered-Estates Court, and the In-
cumbered Estates Court with all the powers of the Court
of Chancery. (Hear, hear.) There was no necessity
for two courts of the same kind; and the whole question
was, whether they could make the Court of Chancery
as cheap and as expeditious as the Incumbered Estates
Court. He believed it could be so made. He therefore
would vote for the second reading of the bill. Two of the
objections made to that principle he had already answered.
With regard to the third, which was made by the hon.
member for Horsham, Namely, that this bill went on
the principle of an exceptional legislation for Ireland,
which he deprecated, whatever value might be in that
objection, it was now too late, for it should have been
made when the Incumbered Estates Court was pro-
posed. But whatever fairness there might be in this ob.
jection, coming from the hon. member for Horsham, it
was hardly fair in the mouth of his hon, and learned
friend the member for Enniskillen, who had himself a bill
on the table which went on the principle of exceptional
legislation for Ireland. He would now say a few words
with regard to the details of the bill. With regard to the
amount of arrears in the Incumbered Estates Court, it
was difficult to know howeto deal with that question, and
it deserved the consideration of a committee of the house.
He also thought tl)at some means should be pointed out
in the bill providing for the existing staff of the court. It
was the duty of the house to see that the transfer of the
staff, if it should take place, should be effected in the
most judicious mariner. 'With regard to the question of
appeal, the same objection which was taken by his hon.
and learned friend might be taken to the appeal which
existed in England, where there was an appeal front
the Vice-Chancellor to the Lord Chancellor and to the
Lord Justices, who were generally but two in number,
and therefore there was a possibility of one judge having
an opinion opposite to that of his brother judge. The
next question, though one of detail, was the most impor-
tant and transcendent of all, viz., that which hod refer-
ence to the appointment of the chief clerks under the
new judges. It was most important, in his opinion, that
the judges 'who were to be responsible for the winking
of the court should have the appointment of the chief
clerks. That was the recommendation of the cominis•
sioners, and it was contained in the bill of last year. In
the present bill, however, the appointment was placed in
the hands of the Lord Lieutenant. He trusted that the
Government would not press this part of their measure,
but if they did he hoped it would be rejected by the
house. (Hear.) The ipialifieations laid down in the
bill for the office of Vice.Chancellcr would exclude
Mr. Hargrave, ono of the judges of the Incumbered
Estates Court, who was said to have performed
his duties in the most satisfactory manner. (Hear,
hear.) He thought the bill should he altered in this re-
spect also. These matters of detail were important, anal
he did not think they could be satisfactorily considered
in a committee of the whole house. During the discus-
sion, different reasons had been assigned for disagreeing
with several parts of the bill, and he thought that these
several opinions should be. represented on a select com-
mittee, with the view; if possible, of reconciling them.
Mr. G. M. BUTT said the details of the bill required
great alteration in his opinion ; but as he agreed in its
principle, he should vote fir the second reading. He
hoped it would be allowed to go to a select committee,
along with Mr. Whiteside's bills, which contained many
provisions that might be advantageously incorporated
with the bill. This course would in reality be a saving
of time ; for with the numerous objections raised to the
bill before the house, it must undergo considerable al-
teration before it cauld pass. In one important parti-
cular the recommendation of the commission had not
been followed. ThThey recommended that the chief clerks
and others should be appointed by the judges, and
without this, it was impossible for the system to work
well. This bill proposed to give these appointments
to the Lord-Lieutenant. He Deemed with the propriety
of extending the provisions of the Incumbered Estates
Court to estates not incumbered ; but great care was
necessary in making this extension of jurisdiction. It
would be a great boon, both to the people of Ireland and
of England, to establish some means of giving a Parlia-
mentary title to property ; but he did not think the pro-
visions of this bill would suffice for the purpose. That
was another reason why he wished the bill to be referred
to a select committee.
Sir E. PERRY said this bill related to a subject with
which he bad been brought much into contact, the pro-
per formation of ajurisdiction which should dispense jus-
tice in a cheap and summary manner. He was convinced
that the principle of the bill, the transfer of the jurisdiction
of the Incumbered Estates4Court to the Court of Chancery
in Ireland, was a sound one. Objection bad been taken to
the way in which the patronag'b was proposed to be dis-
pensed. From :va
his s
great,b experience
could
say h
in dispensing
t atthere a
judicialsno
such pa-
tronage,ur judicial system as the attribution of that
blo t whicho
o
patronage to the occupants of the bench. This led to the
mischievous creation of fees, and the unwillingness of the
judges to interfere with the cabers appointed by them-
selves. There were numerous instances in India of im-
proper appointments being made by the judges. He
thought it one of the best preViSions of the bill to take
these appointments from the judges, and give them to
the executive government. If a judge made an improper
appointment—say his own son, a'boy of 21 perhaps—to

HOUSE OF COMMONS.-(ZESTPRDAY.)
COURT OF CHANCERY (IRELAND.)

(Continued from our third Edition of last NI'!"la.)

Mr. CAIRNS entreated the Louse not to be led away
by flattering descriptions of the reformed Court of Chan-
cery in Ireland, to abolish the Incumbered Estates
Court which had had such beneficial results in the coun-
try. He should advise that the jurisdiction cf this court
should be extended to unincumbered estates.

Mr. WHITESIDE said he was in this predicament
with respect to the bill, that he believed it to be impos-
sible of execution through the medium of the Court of
Chancery unreformed, or reformed as was proposed by
this bill. Since the last time he had addressed the house
he had been in Ireland, and found it to be the opinion
of the whole legal profession in that country that the
working of the bill would be impossible. There were
still 1,600 estates, valued at sixteen or seventeen mil-
lions of money, remaining for adjudication in the Incum-
bered Estates Court, and three millions of money to be
distributed, showing that there was a great deal of diffe-
rence between the rapid sale of property and the proper
distribution of the proceeds afterwards. He believed
that although the court had effected sales with great ra-
pidity, the distribution of the funds would net give en-
tire satisfaction. It was the opinion of the whole bar
that the Court of Chancery could not dispose of these ar-
rears ; the attorneys thought the same ; and he had a
letter from the Master of the Rolls expressing a similar
opinion. The Master pointed out that th• bill pro-
pcsed to do with four judges the amount of work now
done by nine. The Master also said that the business
might be done witti the staff proposed, bnt certainly not
if the arrears were to be thrown on the new eourts. He
(Mr. Whiteside) objected to this bill as a job, the object
of which was to oust all the officers of the Court of
Chancery and fill their places with the officers of the
Incurnbered Estates Court, and that with that view
it was proposed to deprive the judges of the right of
nomination, and to lodge it with her Majesty's admi-
nistrator. Another objection to the bill was the want
of a satisfactory court of appeal, without which, it was
the opinion et the whole Irish bar, the but could
never give satisfaction. He begged also to point out
that one object of the bill was to make the Court of
Chancery a great conveyancing machine for the whole
of Ireland. Any mau possessed of property might,
aithongh owing no money, go into the Court of Chancery
and get a new title to his property without any expense,
the court having, at the expense of the country, to do
all the work of a conveyancer. If the proposal were
persisted in, of referring the bill to a committee of the
whole house, he must give bis vote against the second
reading.

Mr.-.T. O'BRIEN was of opinion that all the faults
which had been found to the bill were faults of detail,
while its principle was well worthy the consideration of
the house. That principle was, to maintain the system
of Parliamentary title, which had already produced
such good effects in Ireland. If that system was to be
persevered in in the case of incumbered estates, there
would be gross injustice in withholding it from estates
that were not incumbered ; and as to the disposal of
arrears, that was merely a question of detail. He could
ssnre the house that if two estates of equal value in
every other respect were for sale, one with a Parliamen-
tary title an'l one without, the former would fetch three or
four years' purchase more than the latter. If,then, it was
admitted that Parliamentary titles would be an advantage
to incumbered as well as unincumberad estates, the Court
of Chancery would be necessary to inquire into questions
of title. It had been objected that the Court of Chancery
had got in'o such t a I repute in Ireland, that they ought
not to be entrusted with new powers ; but were they
prepared to abolish that court, or to refuse the reforms
contemplated by the bill, and which were not mere expe-
riments, but alterations framed upon the model of the
reforms which hal Lean carried out in this country ? It
was proposed to abolish the office of masters in chancery,
and to institute a tribunal similar to the Vice-Chancellors'
.Courts. But it was a mere matter of detail whether the
existing masters were to be male vice-chancellors, or
whether new vice-chancellors should be appointed. If
at this moment all the arrears were thrown upon these
two vice chancellors, he admitted that it would be al-
most impossible to dispose of the business. But those
arrears would not come at once. If it did, that was a
mere matter of detail ; and if the Incu►nbered Estates
Court were continued for the purpose of working up the
arrears, he saw no reason why the delay should take
place which the opponents of the present measure anti-
cipated. The business of the I❑cumbered Estates Court
was decreasing ; formerly, upwards of 1,200 petitions
had been presented in one year, while in 1854 only 372
petitions were presented. He saw no reason, therefore,
to fear, if the proposed court were relieved from the ar-
rears, that they would not be competent to the transac-
tion of all future business. Then with regard to the ex-
tension of the juri:dicticn to unincumber,d estates, it
was impossible to carry out the system of giving Parlia-
mentary titles in Ireland, unlebs the principle was ex-
tended to all property, for which purpose this bill was
necessary. The constitution of the Court of Appeal was
a mere matter of detail, which might be arranged in
committee, as was the case with most of the other objec-
tions which had been raised. The question now was
whether, considering tee admitted necessity for legisla-
tion—considoi ing, also, that this hill involved no new
principle, and that it had the unanimous support of the
Commission, the house was prepared to adopt the ex-
treme course suggested by the hon. member for
Horsham.

Mr. GEORGE admitted that they ought not to refuse
a second reading to the bill merely because they objected
to certain of the details. In many respects the series of
bills proposed by tLe hon. and learned member for En-
niskillen were identical with the Government measure,
and he suggested that the better course would be to
refer them all to a select committee. If that were done,
he should vote for the second reading ; if not, he should
oppose it. He thought the Incumbered Estates Court
should be continued until it bad disposed of its own ar-
rears, and objected especially to the clause which gave
power to the new tribural to sell unincutnbered estates,
which he considered a most dangerous principle, and one
that mould give rise to bald. He was also for retaining
the existing !neaten, under the altered name of ViC3-
Chancellors, instead of appointing a new daft of officers
and imposing a cha-ge upon the country for retiring
allowances. He preferred the Court of Appeal, as sug-
gested by the hon. and learned member for Enniskillen,
to that proposed in the Government bill.
Col. DUNNE would vote against the second reading
of this bill, not because ho desired the Incumbered Es-
tates Court to be continued, but because he desired that
it should determine finally and altogether at the period
fixed by the existing act. This was a measure put for-
ward upon the ground of expediency. He objected to
expediency as a principle of legislation, believing it to
have been the cause of most of the calamities which had
been inflicted upon the country. It was expediency which
had driven us into the present war, and it was expe-
diency which had occasioned all the failures and mis-
takes which had marked its progress. Ho objected to
the proposal for compensating the officers of the Ineum-
bored Estates Court, by transferring them to the Court
of Chancery, leaving the present officers of that court,
who were quite equal to their duties, chargeable to the
country for retiring allowances. He believed the work-
ing of the Incumbered Estates Court by forcing sales
had not only deteriorated the value of Irish property,
but had been the main cause of those murders which
had resulted from the endeavour of the purchasers to
dispossess the tenants in order to make the most of their
property.
Mr. BLAND would vote for the second reading. All
concurred that the jurisdiction of the In cambered Estates
Court should not be perpetuated, and this, ho thought,
was the hest time for infusing its jurisdiction into the
Court of Chancery. He acquiesced in many of the objec-
tions which had been advanced, but an they were mere
matters of detail they ought not to affect the vote upon
the second reading. He was of opinion that the existing
court ought to wind up its own business, and that the
new tribunal should not be incumbered with the arrears.
Mr. FRENCH denied that the Incumbered Estates
Court was popular in Ireland, as had been stated ty
some hon. members. He thong ht there was much farce
in the observation of the hon. member for Enniskillen,
that when the Incumbered Estates Court was established
the greater proportion of the business with which it bad
to deal had already been under process of investigation
in the Court of Chancery, and so for a time the proceed-
ings of the Incumbered Estates Court went on speedily;
but now it wee clear that the business was at a dead-
lock. Still, on the whole, he was not so enamoured of
the Incumbered Estates eed in itself as to oppose the
second reading of the bill of the Solicitor-General.
Mr. M‘MAHON said this question had been treated
as if it was one which concerned lawyers and landowners
only ; but he wished to treat it as one which concerned
the people of Ireland ; and looking at it in that point of
view, he urged that everything which tended to make
land cheap, and to facilitate the transfer of land, would
he for the good of the people of Ireland, and ought to
be adopted. He could not conceive how this measure
could tend to that object. He objected to making the
Court of Chancery a permanent conveyancing establish-
ment. He contended that it would be better to adopt
measures for the removal of impediments to the transfer
of land, such as abolishing judgments against land and
entails, and establishing a county registry of the trans-
fers of land. The Appeal Court in Ireland which it
was proposed to erect under the bill he thought was an
unnecessary expense, and that as all lawyers in Ireland
practised both in law and equity, the Court of Exche-
quer Chamber would constitute the best court of appeal
from the decisions of the Court of Chancery.
Mr. MALINS said lie was placed in a difficulty with
reference to the course he ought to take on the second
reading of a bill of much of which he approved, of much
of which he disapproved. He agreed in the provision
creating two Vice-Chancellors, and that which abolished
the Masters in Chancery, and that which constituted a
Court of Appeal ; though he objected to that court con-
sisting of only two judges, for be thought all courts of
appeal should consist of three judges. There was, how-
ever, an improvement in the bill on the practice in Eng-
land of allowing appeals to go from a single judge to an-
other single judge. He objected to that system in Eng-
land, and he knew that the Solicitor-General for Eng-
land agreed with him in that respect, and ales in
another objection he had to the practice which now pre-
vailed of some appeals being heard by two judges and
others by only one judge ; and he hoped his hon. and
learned friend would support that provision of the bill.
He (Mr. Aldine) also approved of the discontinuance of
the Incumbered Estates Court at some time or other.
The other objects of the bill were, he thought, open to
objection. If there was the arrear in the Incumbered.
Estates Court which had been stated, he thought nothing
would be more unwise, or more calculated to break down

a responsible situation for which he was not fit, no one
thought of attacking the judge ; but the case was very
different if such an appointment were inacle by the Ext.:.
cutive Government. The experienoe of the last 20 years
ha I fully established two principles—that officers of the
courts should not be paid by fees, and that their appoint-
inc,nts should rest with the Executive Government, and
not with the judges.
Mr. KENNEDY said the profession had had great
reason to complain of the inconvonicnt situation of the

Incuwbered Estates Court. They might well complain
when they were called on to attend at two distant places
at one and the same time. (A laugh.) The result had
been to give a monopoly to some few members of the
profession. He objected,to the transfer of the mass of
business transacted in these courts to the Court of Chan-

eery, already overburdened. He would empower the Court
of Chancery to deal with the unincumbered estates, but
would retain the powers of the existing Incumbered
Estates Court with regard to incumbered estates. Every
argument of the Solicitor-General for Ireland had in
reality gone in favour of the continuance of the Incum-
bered Ei;tates Court. Unless the Government would con-

sent to these bills going before a select committee, he
should oppose the second reading.
Mr. T. O'BBIEN said he should support the second
reading of the bill, believing that the Incumbored Estates
Court had worked well, and required to be extended in
its operation. If the trills were referred to a select com-
mittee they would. be delayed till the end of the session,
and then probatly abandoned. The great object was to
give a Parliamentary title to persons purchasing pro-
psrty ; and the difference between this bill and that of
Mr. ‘Vhite:lde was merely one of detail. It would be
ea,y to incorporate the valuable provisions of the two
bills in one, when the house went into committee upon
than.

Mr. J. D. FITZGERALD said he found there were
many opponents to the bill ; but, as their opposition
rested on totally different grounds, one might be set off
against the other. The arguments of the hon. and
learned member for Enniskillen, might be Bet off against
those of the hon. member for Horsham, and so of the
others ? On one point the house bad agreed with a soli-

tar/ exception, that there should be a continuance of the

system of the Incumbered Estates Court, the exception
being the hon. member for Portatlingten (Colonel
Dunne). The solitary objector to the principle of the
Incumbered Estates Courc was the lion. and gallant
gentleman opposite (Colonel Dunne), who had certainly
been most consistent in his opposition. Indeed he told
the house that all the murders which had taken place in
Ireland had been caused by the commission. (Laughter.)
Colonel DUNNE demurred to this account of his ob-
servations.

Mr. FITZGERALD—At all events, to judge from
the hon. and gallant gentleman's speech, the way in
which he would determine the existence of the court
would be by hanging the three commissioners. (Laughter.)
The most popular objection to the bill, however, was the
provision it proposed to make for transferring the juris-
diction of the court to the Court of Chancery. Now, when
Sir J. Romilly (then the Solicitor-General) introduced
the measure in 1849 it was put forth as an experiment.
The original bill being one for three years expired in
1852 ; and in the March of that year, Lord Derby, who
was then in office and who had been asked in another
plane what were his intentions with respect to the court,
stated that the Lord Chancellor for Ireland was direct.
ing his attention to the simplification of the procedure in
Chancery, with a view to see whether it might not have
the functions of the Incumbered Estates Court engrafted
upon it. In the same year the right hon. gentleman
(Mr. Napier) expressed an opinion that the true mode
of reforming the Incumbered Estates Court would be to
reform the Court of Chancery, and to transfer the juris-
diction to it. A similar opinion was expressed by many
other gentlemen of great authority. At that time the
procedure in Chancery was by bill end answer. The court
required every person, however remotely interested, to
be made a party to each stilt : the system of masters, as
well as that of charge and discharge, were in force, and,
in a word, there was such a long tissue of circumstances
leading to delay that a suit might be considered as almost
interminable. In 1849, then, the Court of Chancery was
not able to do the work of the Incumbered Estates Court,
for when the final decree was made the litigation had
only just commenced. Thus, in 1802, Lord Redesdale
gave judgment in a ease of property which was not finally
sold till 1852. (Hear.) But since 1849 how great had
been the change. The Court of Chancery had, in the
first place, been eased by the Incumbered Estates Court,
which had disposed of eight or nine hundred causes in
which the Court of Chancery itself could not have sold
the property. In the following year, however, Sir J.
Romilly introduced a large measure of Chancery reform.
The system of bill and answer was replaced by the easy
and expeditious mode of petition and affidavit. The re-
sult had been that from the paseiug of the act in 1850 to
the end of last year the court had disposed of no fewer
than 680 causes, every one of which had been begun and
eided before the Lord Chaec:ellor hienstlf. Besides those,
176 causes bad been disposed of under the old system of
' bill and answer. It would still further illustrate the
improvement if he (the hon. gentleman) were to state
the average period of the first thirty causes which had
been heard under the new system in Trinity Term, 1854.
Of those 30 oases 10 had been begun and disposed of within
3 months, 15 within 5 months, and 24 within 10 months,
the remaining 6 having occupied a longer period. Now
compare this with what had been the case with the 176
causes with respect to which the old procedure bad not been
departed from. Of those causes 12 had been disposed of in
Trinity Term, 1854, and in these the suits had averaged a
length of seven years and a half, and some of them had
lasted 13 or 14 years each. (gear.) The Government
new proposed to extend the:refoine still further. They
prepeeed to abolish the system of Masters in Chancery
—(hear)—and to make it imperative open the judge who
had a cause in charge never to let it pass from under his
control • but if he empleyeOis chief clerk, it should be
under his own eye. (Cheers.) They proposed to put
an end to all technicalities and to all ejections arising
from want of parties to the Suit, from the death of sui-
tors and everything of that kind. In short, if the bill
were carried, he would undertake to say that the Irish
Court of Chancery would be the cheapest, the simplest,
and the most expeditious tribunal in the land. Indeed,
in its present condition, they might got a right decided
in it more rapidly and at less expense than they could
in a court of common law. They need not, therefore,
hesitate to entrust it, when yet further reformed, with
the jurisdiction of the Incumbered Estates Court. (Hear,
hear.) He (the hon. gentleman) had just received a
letter from the Lord Chancellor of Ireland, stating that
by the conclusion of the term both he and the Master of
the Rolls would have cleared off all their arrears, (Hear,
hear.) It was sometimes asked why an unincumbered
proprietor should not be placed in the same position as
the iucumbered one t He (Mr. Fitzgerald) could see no
reason why ho should not, and he proposed, therefore, in
conformity with the weightiest possible authorities, both
in the profession and out of it, to give the proprietors of
non-Incumbered property exactly the same privileges as
had been accorded to suitors in the 'numbered Estates
Court. The real question was, in truth, not whether
that curt should be made perpetual, but whether they
should have two Courts of Chancery. (gear.) The
considerations he had just pointed out to the house
were those which had influenced the commissioners
in coming to the conclusion that, although the sys-
tem should be continued, it would be extremely injuri-
ous to the public interest that a separate tribunal should
be kept up instead of the jurisdiction being transferred
to one of the established courts. The bon. and learned
member for Enniskillen had spoken of the job, and the
gross job, to be perpetrated by the bill. The clause he
characterise I as the biggest job that had ever come be-
fore the house was that which provided the chief clerks
should be appointed by the executive instead of by the
judges. This was a departure from the bill of last year,
but the object was to procure as efficient a staff as pos-
sible to secure the proper working of the bill. It de-
prived the masters, examiners, and all the officials of the
Incumbered Estates Court of their offices, and the clause
would enable the executive to appoint them to the new
situations to be created. Any appointment made by the
executive would be subject to the control of Parliament,
but a judge was responsible to no person for any ap-
pointment made by him. The hoe. and Isarned member
for Enniskillen bad referred to the 19th clause, which
provides that the clerks shall be either barristers, soli.
citors, or persons who have been masters' examiners, or
masters, or secretary of the Incumbered Estates Court ;
he (Mr. Fitzgerald) confessed that he was alone respon-
sible for that clause. The officers of the Incunthered
Estates Court had given proof of their efficiency, and he
he wished, therefore, to make them eligible for the new
offices. The hon. and learned member for Enniskillen
said the object was to provide for a particular indivi-
dual ; such was not the case ; he could not even imagine
who was the person referred to. The hon, and learned
member said the bill was impracticable ; it proposed to
transfer to the Court of Chancery the whole mass of busi-
ness of the Incumbered - Estates Court, and the result
must be that the whole would get clogged up. There was,
indeed, a large accumulation of business in the court of
the commissioners, but the delay was in many instances
owing to the masters themselves ; and he felt confident that
two vice-chancellors, starting with an efficient staff, would
soon (dear it off. In point of fact the business was now
done by two, as the third commissioner, Baron Richards,
only sat in the full court, A complaint was made that he
had not consulted the Master of the Rolls in reference to
this measure. He could only say that he sent his lordship
a copy of the bill last July, but from that time he had
not received any communication from him. One officer
had suggested that his salary should be raised, but he
had not received a single suggestion for the public good
from any quarter. He was responsible for the frame the
bill hal assumed ; but in all its principles, and in all its
details, with two exceptions, it was founded on the re-
commendations of the commissioners. He had volunteei ed
to prepare a bill founded on these recommendations, and
his only object had been to introduce one that would
tend to secure the public benefit. He was ready to receive
suggestions as to the details, and would have no objec-
tion to refer the bill to a select committee. He would not
consent, however, that it should be referred along with
the five bills of the hon. and harned member for Ennis-
killen. They were se diametrically opposite that, if re-
ferred to one committee, none of them would ever
emerge. Theshen. and learned member for Enniskillen,
in his speech on the first reading, bad stated that the
books and papers of the lucutnbered Estates Court were
in the greatest confusion. He (Mr. Fitzgerald) lead re-
ceived letters from the accountant-general and the secre-
tary distinctly denying that assertion.
Mr. NAPIEft said it was impossible for him to con-
sent to the second reading of this bill, if the Government
refused to allow the bills of the hon, and learned member
for Enniskillen to go to a select committee. The object
of all the bills was the same ; it wag to secure facility of
transfer and security of title in the sale of estates, and the
best course for the house to adopt would be to refer all the
bills to one and the same select committee. At all events,
if the house passed this bill in its present shape, the whole
question of Chancery and Incumbered Estates Reform