The Sun.
London, England, 1860-04-20 00:00:00

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PRICE 4D. STAMPED, SP•

lieved that a £6 franchise was a perfectly safe franchise, and
that it would not introduce a lawless or reckless class of
. .
men, but men of intelligence who' were quite Rs fit:to exert
. , _

cise the suffrage as the stnaller class of shopkeepers and
quite as independent in many towns. The noble earl. said
that a uniform franchise woi&ld necessarily be one of a uni-

form character. That was a fallacy. There was. a great
difference between the £6 householder of the Tower ,ITam-

lets and of Marylebone, and between the householder in the

west and east end of Manchester. In small towns the clif-

rerence would be still greater. He believed that with a

franchise the constituency would be of the most varied cha-
racter. If they looked at the map of England they would
see a large number of towns in agricultural districts which
had no connexion whatever with manufactures, but which
were wholly dependent on the agricultural district by which
they were surrounded. The £6 householders in these
towns would be of a very different character from those
who lived in the manufacturing districts, and the result
would be that members would be sent to the House of Com-
mons representing every variety of interest. One word
with regard to the question of delay. The noble earl inti-
mated an opinion that the Reform Bill made but slow pro-
gress in the House of Commons, and implied that this
delay was founded on some dislike to the measure. But
the noble earl, omitted to mention two important facts.
One was that, perhaps unfortunately, but certainly unavoid-
ably, it was brought in concurrently with a financial scheme
of great importance. (Hear, hear.) The other was-that the
Conservative party in the ther house intimated that it was
not their intention to oppose the principinof the Govern-
ment bill, so that the second reading of the 4easure might
be considered as haying been agreed to. Under these cir-
cumstances it was not too much to expect that there might
be that union of parties which would lead to a settlement
of that important question in the present session of Parlia-
ment. He could not avoid pointing out the danger to the
country from further delay in settling this question. Delay
might prove dangerous to the constitution and injurious to
the character of their public men, whose sincerity was
already suspected. Contrasts were drawn in every news-
paper between the professions of gentlemen before they
were elected and the language which they held in the House
of Commons. He saw no prospect of a better time for set-
tling this question than the present. Was it not better to
settle this question in a time of peace and calm, when they
were free from any undue external pressure, than when the
minds of men were in a state of agitation and excitement ?
Now that they had a measure which, in its main features,
did not differ much from the bill of the late Government,
he hoped there would be a sufficient degree of public spirit,
and such an absence of acrimony and party spirit, as would
induce a majority of both houses, if they could not consent
to the measure of the Government in the precise form in
which it stood, at least to settle what was to be the amount
of the borough and county franchise. (Hear, hear.)

Lord VIVIAN said he did not rise to address the house
on this question, but, as reference had been made to a
letter which he had received, he begged to say that the
person who wrote that letter was a person on whose ability
and accuracy he could rely. His statement was, that in
the borough in Cornwall referred to the number of electors
would be double that which was given in the printed re-
port. (Hoar.) Under these circumstances he thought that
the question should be referred to a committee.
The Earl of DERBY said he could not but be somewhat
apprehensive, from the speech of the noble duke, who de-
precated allpolitical acrimony in dealing with this question,

;hat he and the members of her Majesty's Government

were not yet sufficiently impressed with the importance of
the question, and that the noble duke, More especially, as
appeared from the speech Iv ith which ho had favoured the
house, and his reference to the conduct of former ministers,
was less desirous of coming to a satisfactory settlement of
this question than of keepingalive the spirit of party agita-
tion, and seeking to throw upon his political opponents that
which he felt to be the invidioupess of the task which ac-
cording to him, it appeared that her Majesty's present Go-
vernment had reluctantly taken into their hands. (Hear.
hear.) The noble duke had favoured the house with some
historical reminiscences. He certainly could go somewhat
further back than the noble duke, but there were some in
which the noble duke had some advantage over him, for.
the noble duke referred to conversations and inducements
held out to the Government to undertake the Reform Bill
of which he (Earl of Derby) had no knowledge.
The Duke of ARGYLL said he referred to what toolii

place when Lord J. Russell introduced the Reform Bill oi

1852.

Tho Earl of DERBY—In what period of 1852 ?

The Duke of ARGYLL said he believed the first Reforni
Bill of Lord J. Russell was introduced in February, 1852.1
The Earl of DERBY said the noble duke had certainly

surprised the house by one fact, namely, that Lord Joh]

Russell, of all men in the world, was extremly unwillin
to deal with this question of Parliamentary Reform
—(laughter)—and that to the best of his power ho resisted
the reduction of the couaty franchise to £lo—that he wal3
opposed to the measures which had subsequently been prot-
posed, and that the fact was that Lord J. Russell was ,gran
dually but reluctantly the victim of circumstances, at 4
dragged at the wheels of a triumphant parliamentary major,
rity to sanction measures which were against his own 0-
sire. The noble lord, it appeared, was as much opposed to
the principle of further reform as perhaps they should find
the noble duke one day opposed to the principle of univeti-
sal suffrage and vote by ballot,which ho now so much
di -
liked, but which he intimated were not so bad as the-
seemed. But the noble duke thought fit to allude to the
measure of the late Government, and the terms and condi-
tions on which that bill was introduced. Little as he desired
to follow the noble duke into a discussion of that measur,
he was not unwilling to meet the noble duke upon that
question if forced upon him, and to state the course they
took for an honourable settlement of it. The noble duke
stated, but not quite correctly, that on his first entering into
office he pledged himself to introduce a measure of Parlia-
mentary reform. The fact was, that ho carefully guarded
himself against giving any such pledge. He did pledge
himself that during the recess her Majesty's Government
would devote their attention to a consideration of the queis-
tion, with a hope that if there was a public feeling such as
they trusted there was at that tine, they should be able to
submit a measure which, if it did not satisfy all parties,would
meet with the sanction and support of moderate men of all
parties. He stated at that time that he was induced to take
that course, not from any sense or conviction in his own
mind that any practical proposition for altering the exist-
ing state of the representation was actually called for, bet
that inasmuch as successive Ministers had pledged the
honour of the Crown—had pledged the Crown in per-
son to such a measure—he accepted the responsibility of
that dice; and, trusting that they might be met in a spirit
of fairness and generosity, he endeavoured to redeem,
though without any sense of its intrinsic necessity, the
pledge which he honestly gave. He was glad to hear
from the noble duke that justice had not been done to the
full merits of that bill. The history of that bill was full in
the recollection of their lordships, and he need not remind
them of the course which had been taken with regard to it.
The noble duke quoted from the speeches of his right hon.
friend, who was Chancellor of the Exchequer in his Govern-
ment—he was now speaking of a period previous to the
dissolution of Parliament—in which ho stated that it was
necessary to deal with the question with a view to the re-
presentation, more or less, of a portion of the working classes
of the country, and that representation they honestly en-
deavoured to secure, without the dangerous consequences
which he believed were involved in the measure of her Ma-
jesty's present Government. They did not think it desirable
or expedient that the borough franchise should be reduced
generally below £lO, so as to introduce that flood of the
lower classes which would be introduced if the present bill
unhappily received the sanction of their lordships and of
Parliament. But they thought it a matter of no insignifi-
cant importance to secure the identity of the borough and
county franchise, which they believed then, and which ho
still believed, to be the best security against future agita-
tion for any further reduction of the one or the other.
(Hear.) He was much struck with the speeches made at the
time of the general election which followed the dissolution.
They entertained an expectation that their proposal would
meet with a fair and candid consideration, and that if it did
to a great extent meet the views of hon. gentlemen on the
Opposition side of the house they would be willing to agree
to the second reading, and to discuss in committee those
points which they thought might require amendment.
Their expectations, however, had not been realised; for,
instead of discussing such points in committee, the oppor•
tunity was taken of laying down abstract resolutions, which
noble lords opposite and hon. gentlemen were well practised
ins, but which on subsequent occasions they found it im-
possible to adhere to. By that ingenious device, aided by
concert with other parties, and by understandings in which,
if they could believe what passed at present, one party was
a good deal deceived by the other, a union was effected
which gave the opposition a small majority. The effect
of that was an appeal to the country, and the result of
that appeal was no doubt a majority against Govern-
ment, not upon any specific question, but upon a
party fight between opposing political bodies. He was
much struck by the speech of the right hon. gentleman the
Secretary of State for the Home Department (Sir G. C.
Lewis), in which there was a groat deal of good advice, and
which he certainly hoped her Majesty's Government were
about to follow. The right hon. gentleman, in that speech,
stated that it was a matter of absolute necessity that any
person or any Government which proposed to bring in a
Reform Bill should point out distinctly to the house the
necessity in the mind of the Government of any reform
should point out the specific defects in the Reform Bill—
should point out in what respect it had failed to answer the
anticipations of its authors, and the just expectations of
meet
the country, and having done so, that they should ecet
the difficulties of the case, and seeing what the defects mere
that they should apply amendments so as to meet those! de-
fects, and be able to point out that specific remedy which
would meet those specific defects. Well, when it was an-
nounced that it was the intention of her Majesty's present
Government to introduce a Reform Bill which was to saiisfy
the just expectations of the country and the wise reBons-
mendation of the Secretary of State for the Home Depart-
ment, he went down to that place which by the courtesy
of the House of Commons was allotted to the members of

ance on the former occasion when the noble lord called
atterAW9n to the fact that he would bring forward a Reform
Bill—and he said not without significance—on the Ist of
March. If by significance he meant the significance of con=
trast, nothing could g, be more strikin than the difference be-
tween what took pipe on the. Ist of March, 1831, and on
,the Ist of March, 1860. He could not refer to what he then
heard in the slightest degree, but by an habitual daily breach
of the privileges ef•Parliament they, were able to obtain
some information of what then took place, and he could
Corroborate the accuracy of those statements, from which
they were enabled to collect what were the principles of her
Majesty's Government. He must confess that the tone of •
the debate—he hoped lie, was:not speaking dist-c,,zpect#ally of -
the House of Commons—was more sulteo too, discussion on

a turnpike bill than on a reform bill. (Laughter.) Ile could

not say that the manner in which it was brought forward.
WAS such as to bespeak for it very grave consideration or to
lead to the expectation that it would be soon and Fat isfacto-

rily settled. Itdid not appear to him that any other consi-
deration pressed on the minds of the Government than what
number of persons•could be added to the constituency in
order to redeem the pledge they had given. (Hear.) Look-
ing at the Government Reform Bill, it was impossible not
to see that there were large classes who by its principle were
altogether precluded from the exercise of the franchise for
whichthey were perfectly qualified, and to which they were
fully entitled. In the Reform. Bill of the late Government
a variety of franchises were introduced, by which it was.
thought a considerable number of the working classes would
be admitted, and that they would have tests to show that
',the portion of the working classes, so introduced were the
• •
most steady and industrious in theirliabits and least migi•a-,
tory—having the deepest interest in their locality and in
,the general welfare of the country. He hoped the house now

well understood is what sense the late Government were
willing and anxious to admit the working classes to a fair
share in the representation of the country. (Hear, hear.)
It was proposed to introduce as qualifications persons who
had for some time occupied furnis'aed or unfurnished
lodgings, and paying a certain amount of rent. They
thought a number of persons would thus be introduced,
of education, property, and intelligence superior
even to many persons who at present enjoyed the exercise
of the franchise. The bill of the late Government also pro-
posed that the possession of a certain amount of property
in a savings bank should constitute a claim for parliamentary
franchise. In short, its promoters were desirous of giving
the right to every man who could show in any way that he
had a permanent stake in the country, and that his habits
and character and mode of living were such as to lead to
the belief that he would exercise that right honestly, tem-
perately, and judiciously, to the best of his ability. He (the
Earl of Derby) was in hopes that the present bill would
have remedied the practical defects which existed in the
former bill, but instead of doing so it only increased the bo-
rough franchise constituency—increased the number of the
constituents, the number being, in his opinion, the least
important point. The quality of the constituency was that
which was important, and not the number. (Hear, hear.)
He did not care whether the Government added 200,000 or
500,009. They might even add a million to the constitu-
encies, so that the quality was irreproachable. But the only
question with the Government appeared to be by what ex-
tension of the franchise they would obtain a given number.
The argument used was this : if they got a £9 franchise
they would hive so many additional voters ; if £B, so inany
more; and if a £6 franchise they would have £203,000 `ad-
ditional voters, and therefore they took a£6 franchise. It
was a question, however, whether a £6franehise would give
them the number which the Government considered so im-
portant. When they came to examine the circumstances
of the case he was afraid they would find that the Govern-
ment had no sound foundation to go upon. He very much
questioned the accuracy, of the data furnished by the re-
turns. He was glad, therefore, that the noble duke oppo-
site and his colleagtiee were willing to concede the inquiry
proposed by hie noble friend (Earl Grey), although the con-
cession was made cinder some pressure. [The Duke of
ARGYLL—No pressure whatever.] Well, then, under to
pressure ; but the noble duke conceded it 'upon the under-
standing that it was not to cause any delay in the' progress
of the Government measure. If the noble duke meant to
say that, whatever progress was made in the committee,
legislation upon the subject should go on nevertheless, then
he (the Earl of Derby) thought the government were put-
ting themselves into a position which he could not compre-
hend. Either they must consider this inquiry altogether
unnecessary to satisfy the mind of Parliament, end there-
fore they ought to have refused it as uncalled for, or they
thought it useful for the purpose of determining whether
the present measure was one which ought to receive the
sanction of Parliament, and consequently should act upon
it. (Hear, hear.) They were asked to investigate a grave
and important subject, of which the numerical question was
the least important, before a committee of noble peers, for
the purpose of ascertaining whether the measure was 020
which_could be safely and judiciously adopted by Parlia-
ment. (Hear.) He earnestly hoped that not only those in
their lordships' house, but also hon. members in the House
of Commons. would take full time to deliberate on the facts
and data which would be placed before them. Even if a
session or two sessions were lost, he thought the loss of time
would be adequately satisfied by the knowledge that they
were proceeding on sound data and making themselves tho-
roughly aware of the consequences of the important altera-
tion they were making. He hoped the inquiries of this
committee would tend to throw light upon a subject which
was at present in great darkness, andenable their lordships
to judge how far they, ;night safely adopt a proposal Which
had been hastily and imperfectly laid before Parliament.
He should be sorry if that house should be under the
necessity of rejecting any measure sent up by the House
of Commons, but he must confess that if he saw the dan-
ger of the Government bill coming up to their lordships'
house in its present state and with its present simple, but
at the same time dangerous provisions, he should think
its rejection by their lordships, for the purpose of
a further consideration of the subject, would be
infinitely preferable to the adoption by them of
a measure the most unsatisfactory, the most unstatesman-
like, and the most inconclusive of any ever submitted by
any Government on this great and important subject. Even

if the statement of the Government itself were taken, what
was the alteration about to be made in the borough consti-

tuencies ? According to the Government statement, thsy
were going to add an amount equal to five-sevenths of the
existing constituencies, and the whole of that five-sevenths
was to be taken from the very lowest class in the lowest
scale of electors. But that was not all. They might assume
that the lower they went in the scale of voting the greater
would be the chance of the voter having want of judgment,
and being liable to undue influence and liable to corruption.
(Hear, hear.) Of the five-sevenths to be added to the con-.
stituences no more than one-third occupied houses between
£8 and £lO rent. The remaining two-thirds occupied
houses between £6 and £B. This was a sufficiently impor-
tant change calculated to make them pause before they ad-
mitted what he must call such a democratic element into
the House of Commons. Their lordships must also recol-
lect that this addition was not made equally over the whole
constituencies of the country. There were 31 towns in
which the addition to the constituencies would be incietked
from 100 per cent. to 350 per cent., and consequently those
boroughs would be under the influence of the very lowest
class of voters. In agreeing to this addition to the consti-
tuencies they would be putting an irresistible temptation
into the hands of the lowest classes to tax, for their own
benefit, and with an ignorant prodigality, those higher
classes who they very erroneously supposed to be the
authors of the groat expenditure of the country. When
the noble duke reminded their lordships that this Reform
Bill was introduced simultaneously with an important bud-
get he (the Earl of Derby) must say that he thought the
very fact of the simultaneous introduction of those mea-
sures required a double amount of caution on the part of
Parliament. (Hear, hear.) The noble duke seemed to con-
sider that the noble earl who introduced the present motion
had gone out of his way to point out the practical incon-
venience which arose from a preponderance of power exist-
ing in the hands of the lower classes in the United 6tat.cs,

but was that warning to be thrown away in the discussion
of a reform bill in this country? Had not rejoicing antici-
pations been already heard at the success of a budget which
would throw the expenses of the nation on the few rich in-
stead of the many poor? They were invited to give to those
classes who would be most likely to be swayed by such ar-
guments a preponderating control over the financial expen-
diture of the country, and at a moment when the deficiency
of next year must necessarily be greater and more serious
even than the deficiency of last year. He thought that at
a moment like the present, when one whose boast it was
that he swayed the masses of this country exulted in the
fact of direct taxation rendering increase of our military
strength impossible except through a confiscation of pro-
perty, they should have the most correct data before they
consented to any extension of power unte those classes
whose loyalty and patriotism he did net doubt, but whose
liability to be swayed by appeals to their feelings and pre-
judices he very much feared. He believed that in the re-
turns which had been relied on by the noble duke many
discrepancies would be folind between the rating and the
actual rental ; and he should like to see a retina whi,h ho
knew the Government had respecting the actual number of
houses at a£s rental. He was sorry that he had allowed
himself to be drawn into so lengthened a discussion of a
measure which was not before the house. But his anxiety
was great that tlaeir lordships should not proceed 00 inex act
dat a in so important a matter, and that, too, ,it a t iciowhen
not the slightest anxiety or impatience was exliibit a by
any class in the community. On the contrary, he bLlieved
that the greatest apprehensions were felt by the lower
classes of the present voters that they would be completely
swamped by the new constituencies. He hoped that,
whatever time the inquiry occupied, it would be a bona
fide one, and that no attempt would be mado by the
Government to force through the measure in ignorailce, of
the facts Of the case. It was a measure which, whether for
weal or woe, was one of the most importaht that bad ever
. been brought before Parliament, and was one which, in his
opinion, was likely seriously to damage the balance of the
constitution. It was likely to produce a House of Com-
mons irreconcileable with the feelings of their lordships'
house, and the result would be collision when it was the
(Continued in our fourth page.)