The Sun.
London, England, 1860-03-07 00:00:00

ARRIVALS THIS IVICERI

Irish
English 620 230 ; 993 f„bo ; 640
Foreign .. :40 --1 ,07 0 f 10 sks.
100 uls.

BOROUGH HOP.
Our market is still heavy, and the value of inferior hops
is with difficulty supported.

WHITg.CHAPEL.

Each kind of meat moved off slowly, as follows :

Beef, from 2s 6d to 4s 4d ; mutton, as 4d ,to 4s Gd ;
lamb, Os Od to Os Od ; veal, 4s Od to 5s 2d; and pork, 3$
6d to 5$ Od per 81b., by the carcase.

IMPERIAL PARL LAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS-(YESTERDAY.)
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack
st five o'clock.

NICE AND SAVOY.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH asked how it was that
in the correspondence respecting the proposed annexation
of Savoy and Nice to France, recently laid on the table, no
mention was made of any negotiations between this coun-
try and Russia, Austria, and Prussia ?
The Duke of NEWCASTLE said he had no difficulty in
answering the question of the noble earl. The views of her
Majesty's Government had been tran.smitted to the three
Powers mentioned by the noble earl. Thosee communica-
tions consisted of the despatches addressed y Lord John
Russell to Lord Cowley, and also the answers written
thereto by Lord Cowley. The dates of the despatches re-
ceived from Lord Cowley were the 28th of
cat Jion toanuary
and the 13th of February. The communi
Berlin was dated the 13th of February, and that to St.
Petersburgh the 25th of the same month.
The Earl of DERBY asked if a despatch alluded to by
Lord Cowley in one written by him on the 25th could bs
given to the house. It was not at present included in the
correspondence produced.
The Due of NEWCASTLE said the despatch was
looked upon as of no importance, but there could be no
objection to its production.
Lord WODEHOUSE laid the despatch in question on
the table.
THE NEW FRENCH TREATY.
The Duke of NEWCASTLE said, in consequence of the
adjournment of the debate on this subject in the other
house, the motion for an address to her Majesty on the part
of their lordships would be postponed unil Thursday week.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.
On the motion of Lord REDESDALE, the following
bills were read a third time and passed :—The Belfast and
Ballymena Railway, Carrickfergus and Lame Railway, and
Great Northern and Western Railway (Ireland).
IRISH RAILWAYS.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE presented a petition
against the Grand Canal, Midland Great Western and Great
Southern and Western Railways Bill. The noble marquis
said he should, when the bill came before their lordships,
give it his most determined opposition.
The Earl of LUCAN considered the bill a most mis-
chievous one, and he trusted their lordships would inter-
pose and not allow the bill to pass to a private committee.
Lord MONTAGUE said he had a great many commu-
nications from Ireland on this subject, but in not one of
them was there a word in favour of the measure. The bill
was certainly a public one, and ought not to be considered
in a private committee.
The petition was then ordered to lie on the table.
The Dwellings for the Labouring Classes (Ireland) Bill
was read a second time.
The Attorneys and Solicitors BM was read a second time.
Lord MONTEAGLE moved for certain returns con-
nected with the moral and religious progress of our Indian
dominions as promoted by statute.
The house then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(YESTERDAY.)
The SPEAKER. took the chair at four o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.
The following bills were read a third time and passed :
Brecon and Merthyr Tydfil Junction Railway, and Llan-
gollen and Corwen Railway.
The West Dorset Railway Bill was read a second time.
NEW WRIT.
On the motion of Mr. BEARD, a new writ was ordered
far the borough of Worcester, vacant byMr. Laslett having
since his election accepted the stewardship of the Chiltern
Huidreds.—Ordered.
SAVOY AND NI FRANCE. THE TREATY WITH
FR
Mr. KINGLAKE gave notice that on Mon-
day next he would move that a humble address be
presented to her Majesty, thanking her Majesty
far having ordeied to be laid .on the table the
correspondence relative to the annexation of Savoy and
Nice. Also that a humble address be presented to her
Majesty expressing, on the part of that house, the deepest
concern at the contemplated annexation of these. provinces,
and thanking her Majesty for the part she had taken, in
concert with the other powers of Europe, in reference to
this subject, which had caused the greatest alarm and
distrust in Europe. (" Hear, hear," from the Opposition
benches.)

of Wellington when he laid down his sword after 15 ytarjl
commanding, and five years older than Napoleon when
his sword was broken at Waterloo. A man above the ege
of 60 was no longer capable of commanding a regiment in
the field. He contended that both seniority and purchase
had failed. What th;!T now required was a course of selec-
tion. The Duke of Wanton felt this so strongly that
he issued an order that any
a_qcer who gave a sum beyond
the regulation price for a commiss-lon should be instantly
cashiered, yet though he had a stout 11:. a
he was entirely defeated ; and now it wasrt
lard adstdrZif will
that
commissions should be sold at certain fixed pr:,!'es, while it
was well known that every commission was sold at from 50
to 100 per cent. above the regulation price. The purclu:se
system included two classes—one, that of young men of
large fortune, who went into the army and were quite will-
ing to put themselves in the very front of danger. And it
was a very good thing for those young men to be brought
up in such a school, but it was not a good thing for the
army; for, with their largeness of heart and fulness of
pocket, they introduced such a spirit of extravagance into
the army that sober people were afraid to trust their sons
in the cavalry regiments on account of the expense. A
second class consisted of young men with brave hearts and
clear heads, who sacrificed their all to acquire promotion.
Valuable and brave officers they were ; but the time came at
last when they wished to retire, after attaining the rank of
major-general. The allowance would be £5OO or £6OO, but
many of them refused to take it, and then they got perhaps
double that sum, in order that they might be able to recoup
the money they had spent. (No.) What occurred in the
navy ? In the navy undoubtedly promotion was slow, but
there were degrees of retirement ; and promotion, though
slow, was yet much more rapid than in the army. The hon.
gentleman concluded by seconding the motion,
Capt. L. VERNON proposed an amendment as follows :
—" That whereas the promotion in the seniority corps al-
ready existing, viz., the Royal Artillery, Royal Engineers,
and Royal Marines, being of an unsatisfactory character, this
house is of opinion that it is not desirable to extend the
seniority system to the whole of the army." He contended
that the seniority system was not one of such unmixed
I good for the army as some hon. gentlemen supposed ; senior
officers could not be persuaded to die in order that junior
officers might get promotion. The Artillery, the Royal
Engineers, and the Royal Marines, comprised a body of
40,000 men. Well, the house would remember that peace
was the rule, and war the exception. In peace the subaltern
served twenty-four years before he arrived at the rank of
captain. What, then, became the position of those men who
passed nearly half a century of their prime of life in the
condition of subalterns, following the beat of drum from
' colony to colony, to Canada and to India, without eomfort,
and what was worse, without hope—for hope, which comes
to most men, never came to them. What was the conse-
quence ? When war came the senior officers were worn
out. In the Peninsula the Duke of Wellington found his
most efficient officers in the artillery and engineers among
the captains and second lieutenants ; and in the Crimean
war the colonels of engineers one after another broke down
and failed physically, and the whole work was left to
second captains and lieutenants. (Hear.) Was that the
condition to which they wished to reduce the British army?
In the slang of the day it was said that the "upper ten
thousand" monopolised commissions in the army. But if
any one looked down the Army List he would find for one
Plantagenet fifty representatives of the houses of ,Smith,
Brown, Jones, and Co., and for one of the aristocracy fifty
of those who were connected 'with commerce, and even
with trade. From his own experience, one of the " fastest"
men he ever knew in the army was the son of a Scotch
upholsterer—(a laugh)—and the wiliest dragoon he ever
saw was the son of a country attorney. (Laughter.) The
hero of Lucknow was the son of a baptist minister ; Sir
J. Elly bad risen from a trooper to command the Blues,
and Brigadier Cureton, who so gallantly led the 14th
Light Dragoons at Chillianwallah, enlisted as a pri-
vate soldier. Look at the seniority system in India. The
prices given in India for commissions were very nearly
the same as for those in the Queen's service. In the French
army, again, the system was one-third seniority, one-third
merit, and one-third favour. During the Crimean war some
wounded English and French officers were coming home in
a transport. One of the English officers said to a French
officer, for officers were always talking of promotion, " Ah,
your's is the service, for there a fellow has a chance of pro-
motion 1" " Erreur !" exclaimed the French officer. " Er-
reur! Pour avancer chez nous it faut avoir pour parent un
Ministere de la Guerre." (A laugh.) In the French ser-
vice, if an officer did not attain a certain rank in a certain time
he was turned adrift to live as he best could. (Hear, hear.)
He thought that the military system of the French was one
of the reasons why France was so aggressive. They pre-
ferred war to peace, because war to them was bread and
peace starvation. (Hear.) It was said that no one under
the system could get promotion by merit alone. Was that
so ? He should give a remarkable instance of the contrary ;
and if he put the hon. and gallant general who introduced
this subject to the pain of hearing his "own merits men-
tioned in his presence, he could assure him he did so only
because he felt it was necessary for his argu-
ment. Tho hon. and gallant member here read an extract,
briefly detailing the services of the gallant general from
the summer of 1814, when he accompanied General Ross's
expedition to America, as Lieut. Evans, to the month of
February or March, 1815, when he became lieutenant-
colonel, thus rising from the rank of lieutenant to that of
lieutenant-colonel in the short space of six months, without
the expense of a single shilling. (Hear, hear.) With all the
merit in the world, with all the merit of the gallant general,
it would be impossible for him to have obtained such promo-
tion in a seniority corps. (Hear, hear.) He would have
remained a captain, and could never get beyond it. (Hear.)
It was not a disadvantage, in his opinion, for a poor but me-
ritorious officer to be in a regiment where purchase was
going on, because the officers with money purchased and
put themselves out of his way till he arrived at the top of
the tree. (Hear.) A man who served eight years in the
army might attain the rank of lieutenant-colonel under the
Queen's regulations, but he himself had served 24 years as
a subaltern artillery officer, and nine of them as an ensign
—that was to say he spent a longer time in the lowest rank
than an officer in the army might attain to the rank of
lieutenant-colonel, (Hear, hear.) There was a morbid
feeling in the country that the purchase system admitted
blockheads, whilst it excluded men of merit. Then the
argument was carried a step further, and it was said that
blockheads only purchased, and that men of merit had no
chance whatever. The best answer to that argument was
to compare the deeds of the-13ritish army with those of any
army where the purchase system did not exist--the French
for example. He was not going to dispute the merits or
the glory of the French army—that glory was recorded in
a triumphal arch at the top of a dusty road called the Ely-
sian fields. (Laughter.) He did not know with what feel-
ings other foreigners might look on that record of their de-
feats, but he confessed he looked upon it with considerable
complacency. Coruna, indeed, was inscribed upon it ; but
that he thought, must be a mistake because he believed
that they had won that battle, and that Moore died in the
arms of victory. (Hear, hear.) However that might be,
let him compare our army with that of France. In the Pen-
insular war it had six years of continual success. The im-
perial conqueror of Europe led on at Austerlitz, Wagram.
Jena, and Marengo, Moreau, Marmont, Massena, who -was
styled "l'enfant cheri de la victoire." Nay, Suchet,Victor,
Soult, were met by Graham, Crawford, Beresford, Paken-
ham, Picton, and Hill, and they outmarched them, they out-
fought them, they out-generaled them, they met them hand
to hand and foot to foot, and drove them from Lisbon to the
gates of Paris. Then came the crowning: field of glorious
Waterloo, where the star of Napoleon, the genius of merit,
sank before that of Wellington, the genius of purchase.
(Cheers.) With the exception of Graham and Picton, all
these men were under the ago of 40 at the time, which was
about the age of a subaltern officer in a seniority corps.
(Hear, hear.) Whilst it was not for him to advise what
was the best system for the army, he might venture to de-
nounce as the worst that under which he himself and others
had groaned for years—the seniority system. (Cheers.)
Cl
he
roeseene Colonel
underDICKSON,
great
dis a indv a snetcaogned, i
efn gt e trh et
ha
em eandddmr
eesns t , 0
fsahiids
hon. and gallant friend, who not only impressed the house
by his eloquence but proved the justice of his cause. (Hear,
hear.) He feared the hon. and gallant- general brought
forward this question more on account of the private opinion
he entertained than out of zeal for the service in which he
had risen to such deserved distinction. He regretted that
the hon. and gallant general had drawn an invidious .
dis-
tinction between the cavalry and artillery. He believed
the conduct of the British cavalry at Balaclava would re-
main for ever en graven in the memory of the nation. (Hear.)
The artillery consisted of mthan the ore seasoned men
ca-
valry, and therefore it was no wonder that they were able
at a pinch to perform more extra duty. Ho regretted the
tone adopted by the press in reference to this subject. He
should not have alluded to the press on that occasion were
it not far an arable which he read that day, which appeared
to have been written for the purpose of putting some pres-
sure on the Secretary for War, and trying to guide the Go-
vernment to a decision in this matter which he believed
would be prejudicial to the army and the country. He be-
lieved that every class in the country were highly indebted
to the press, and that they owed the saving of the army
in the Crimean war to the press. But occasionally there
were letters in various portions of the press which dis-
played such ignorance of the subjects onwhich they treated
that no one who wished to come toa right and unprejudiced
decision should yield to what he theme read. That British
officers were nothing but fashionable idlers, and that the'
younger officers were encouraged in a course of reckless ex-
travagance by the colonels was utterly unfounded and un-
true. (near, hear.) At the same time hewas ready toadmit
that some abuses had crept in during a long peace; but
there was a wide difference between removing abuses and
destroying a system altogether. He believed that the"pur-
chase system, if it raised the rich officer, helped also to
raise the poor officer with him. The purchase system
enabled officers who had but little means to place their
families in a position of comparative competency and com-
fort. The hon. and gall tnt general said it would require
£4,000,000 to compensate the officers who have purchased,
but he maintained that these officers were entitled. in justiee
to the purchase money which they paid beyond the regnla-
tim. price. (Oh, oh.) That money was given with the con-
nivance ance of the authorities. The Duke of Wellington had
two sons in the army; Sir 11. Harding° had also sons in
the a
rmy, and they allowed and paid money beyond the re-

......---
gulation. price. It would be unjust therefore merely to
allow the 'regulation price. - The hoti. gentleman-the
Secretary at War, adopteda propar, a judicious, and a satis-
factory course in assimilating the price in the cavalry and
infantry. (Hear, hear.) He only regretted that the benefit
was not to be realised at once. It was impossible for any
man to live on the mere pay of a cornet. The purchase-
money of a cornetcy was £450 ; outfit and regimentals

would cost £100; horses, £lOO, making the purchase-money

really amount to 2650. His pay was only £146 a year ; from

which was to be deducted the expense of forage, batman,
_ __ _

saddlery, wear and tear of horses, mess, and band—all of
which, at the most reasonable computation, would amount
to LB7. His eating and drinking would at the least cost 55.,

J.!. 68. a day. Therefore, without making any allowance for
clothes, comforts, or luxuries, there was a deficiency
of o b
Unless they made a considerable increase in
clatou,t
s sd ,
the pay of the officers of the army, which, he apprehended,
the country was not prepared to make. Unless they were
prepared to increase the pay of the army, they could not
induce poor men to enter cavalry regiments. He admitted
that the new regulations made the service more economical
than formerly, and that the officers could live cheaper.
Nevertheless, it would require something beyond their pay
to support them. He had heard a great deal of army extra-
vagance, but he could truly say from his own experience—
having served in cavalry and infantry, and having been a
member of what were termed crack corps—that he never
knew a single case of an officer ruined by extravagance of
the mesa, though there were, no doubt, many cases of offi-
cers being ruined by extravagance and vice incurred without
the barrack walls. But the parents of these young men
blamed the regiment for all these evil results. But, after all,
how few were the cases of misconduct on the part of indivi-
dual officers. Such misconduct could not be concealed,
and it was obvious to everybody that the cases before the
tribunals of the country where officers in the army were
accused were few indeed. The honour of the British army
stood too high to admit of such accusations. (Hear.) What
would be the effect of abolition of purchase ? Why one of the
very first effects would be that that which could not be done
directly would be done indirectly the moment purchase was
abolished. The truth was, whatever men wanted they would
offer money for, and when men had anything they wished to
dispose of they would accept of money, nor could they for
instance prevent the officers of a regiment privately sub-
scribing to purchase a man out.. The system prevailed in
the Indian army ; it notoriously prevailed in the militia,
for militia commissions were every day hawked about
as they were in the line. He had heard re •
cently of an adjutant of militia who had repeatedly re-
fused £2,500 for his commission. Why throw away so large
a sum of money by the abolition of the present system,
when a much smaller amount, properly distributed, would
contribute considerably to the welfare and comfort of the
service ? Abolish the system as they would, purchasewould
creep in ultimately in some shape or another. (Hear.)
Remarks had been made upon the scarcity of cornets in the
present day. One of the reasons for that scarcity un-
doubtedly was that the examinations were what he should
term absurdly severe. (Hear.) The very feelings which
induced young gentlemen to enter the army—the very
ocha-
, racteristics which stamped them as best fitted for the prfes-
sion, were those least compatible with the present system
• of examination, which exacted close study and a knowledge
of the most intricate questions. (Hear.) He did not see
Why a certificate of having attained a certain position at a
, public school should not be received as a perfect qualifica-
, tien. He had read one or two opinions given in evidence
before the Royal Commission. First of all, he was sur-
prised to hear the hon. and gallant gentleman opposite
. (General Evans) complain of the style of evidence given
before that commission because he (Colonel Dickson)
. thought the officers gave their evidence in a straightfor-
ward way. Surely the evidence of the Commander•in-
Chief was as candid and unexceptionable as any evidence
could be. Lord Grey expressed himself as having strong
, doubts to the policy of competitive examinations. He did
not think those examinations a proper test of qualities the
, most important in a soldier. Sir Benjamin Brodie in an
L interesting work expressed himself of opinion that the fore-
, ing of the youthful mind was most injurious—that this
, was demonstrated in the French service, where diseases of
, the brain were often the result. (Hear.) He was almost
afraid to refer to the French army, whose example was
! always crammed down their throats, but what was the ex-
perience of the two armies in the Crimea ? He was aware
that owing to pecullar,circurastances our military system at
first bioke down, but when they found out their deficiencies,
day by day, week by week, the system was improved, until
we became entirely superior to that of France, which, as we
succeeded, decayed in the same proportion ; so much so, that
he believed they could not continue the war, and he thought
this country was obliged to' conclude a premature peace,
because France could not continue the war in the manner it
had commenced. What carried us through many of our
most glorious victories but this same so much decried regi-
mental system. (Hear, hear.) One remedy proposed was
that of selection. Now, whatever might be the fate of this
motion, that was a principle against which he must utterly
protest. It was a system which if adopted must ruin the
British army ; it was a system which no officer cupid carry
out ; it was impossible for any Commanding officer to decide
who ought to be promoted and who ought not. The Duke of
Cambridge said he should be sorry to see any partial change ;
a change should be complete or should not take place at all—
for a partial change would lead to doubt and insecurity. If
they did away vi ith the purchase system the next day they
would have an indirect purchase and sale going on, which
would lead to great mischief. It would be impossible for a
Commander-in-Chief to make selections without exciting
great discontent. (Hear.) Then, how was a Commander-
in-Chief to act as regarded regiments on foreign service ?
Even at home there might be two regiments in garrison ; the
colonel of one of those regiments wished to retire, the major
of the other might happen to be a relative. How was the
Commander-in-Chief to act in such a case without excit-
ing the suspicionlof jobbing ? (Hear, hear.) Of course he
would leave the power of veto in the hands of the Commander-
' in-Chief, in order to prevent the promotion of undeserving
men, but to suppose that the Commander-in-Chief could act
on the principle of selection was, he ref eated, absurd and
impracticable. The great body of the British army was
moved by an esprit de corps—which, if destroyed, would de-
stroy their efficiency. Those regiments who had performed
the most brilliant actions were noted for their esprit de
corps—that it was which sustained them at Inkermann,
when every individual felt that the reputation of his regi-
ment depended upon him. (Cheers.) The gallant officer
concluded by thanking the house for the attentive audience
they had given to him.
Mr. P. O'BRIEN thought it would have been more dis-
creet if her Majeity's Government had abstained under the
circumstances of a pending treaty from making invidious
allusions to the French service. Why should the purchase
system be any more necessary here than it was in France
Austria, or Prussia? He regretted to hear that of late in
public schools and colleges mathematics and the science of
mechanics had been discouraged in order to encourage classi-
cal learning. To the latter he was no enemy, but though t
a knowledge of projectiles might be more useful to a military
man than arma virumque cano.
Sir F. SMITH observed that it was with great pain he
differed with the hon. and gallant member for Westminster,
and especially on a question so closely connected with the
army. They were both soldiers, and he could only say he
had watched the progress of the hon. and gallant member
enthusiasticvof r
yh irsoa do t moifr etrhs
0.
BB
rui tt
itshhi sa
rwma sy , a a qnude
with great admiration, and was, indeed, amongst the most
hs tei ofnel t whichsu re
that in the hands of the right hon. gentleman the Minister

for War it would receive that attention which it deserved.
The hon. and gallant member for -Westminster spoke in so
low a tone that he was unable to hear many of his .obser-
vation ; but this he (Sir F. Smith) must say, that he
could never be made to understand how it could be
possible to mix up the three systems together of pur-
chase, and seniority, and selection, and have any other
result thtus the most utter confusion, It must be one of the
three. Lord Panmure, in his evidence before the Royal
Commission, said it would ba utterly impossible to carry on
the administration of the British army on the principle of
selection. Take the case of a captaincy being vacant. -The
right hon. gentleman the Secretary for War is to appoint
his successor. There were ten lieutenants candidates for
the vacancy. What was to be the test of fitness P In time of
peace a soldier might have most excellent qualities which it
was impossible to discover. (Hear.) Was the test to be
science or drill, or what was it to be ? Well, then, say he
selected the fifth. What heartburning and discontent
amongst one, two, three, and four. (Hear, hear.) Why, in-
stead of harmony discord would prevail, and every regimen
tal mess would be a hell upon earth. (Hear.) That was
how it would act in the case of a single regiment. But give
the principle a wider range, and attempt to apply it through-
out the army—that the most fitting man, according to what-
ever test might be devised, should have the vacancy. Well,
but some regiments where there might be men of equal or
superior fitness were in India, some in the West Indies,
some in Canada, some at home—how was the Secretary for
War to act in such a case ? Would it not be simply impos-
sible. He defied him unless all the candidates were together
to say which would be the most eligible. Wbo was to say
what should be the proportion of home, what of colonial
service. It would be like multiplying pounds, shillings, and
yc were, eyr ve
believed
edt
ihu
eel)
vyo avoirdupois.
thatr(eL
pa utrhogedhutsceyirns. )tge
inHa,e
particularlyg r e saidatleave
etfihtsi
to
hsthe
(Las
service.pthe
that which the Government were now pursuing, would
make the finest regimental system in the world, and that
they would have the best staff officers in existence. The
Government were going on in the right way, and he hoped
they would persevere. (Hear, hear.)
Captain JERVIS said he believed the intention of the
hon. and gallant general was to open up the army to the
middle classes more than it was at present. Now, if they
lid that the house must first see whether the country would
grant the money which would be necessary. it should be
remembered that the system of purchase and sale provost, d
a great many pensions of late years, and without much in-
quiry the house would not, be able to state what would be
the extent of the pension list if they did away with the
purchase of commissions. (Hear, hear.) Now let the house
consider the middle classes as they were. They knew that
if a man wished to place his son out in the world he gave
him a good education, and obtained for him a position from
which he could advance himself to something better. But
let the house look at the amount of pay in the army, and

ask whether a man could subsist upon it or not. (Hear.)
'The honThaid-gallant member then gave the sums paid an--
nually to the different grades of officers, and stated that the
pay of a lieutenant-colonel was only 1.310 a year. He
would ask whether any man having any affection for his
children would place them in a position where they would
only get such a small sum at so late an age as 35 or more,
with all the expenses attending it. (Hear.) Now he be-
.

ieved that if the house did away with the system of pur-

chase they must increase very considerably the pay, for no
man would be able to support himself and be free from

debt. (Hear, hear.) lie woa►ld mention that England
was the place where an officer was free of expense, because
he was nobody ; but when abroad the expenses were consi-
derably increased, and he when receiving only £7 a month
had been obliged to expend £l7 or more. The hon. and gal-

[ant member then referred to the pay in the civil service,

and stated that a young man entering that service at 18 or
20 years of age, at a hundred a year, could go on till he ob-
tained £6OO or £BOO a year. He further referred to the
fact that a subaltern in the army had to move about from

place to place, which of course added to his expenses. As

an instance of how little a man could save in the army, he

might state that Sir Charles James Napier, on reaching
Bombay at the age of 60 years, and after having filled a
great many staff situations, possessed only £2 after all his
expenses were paid. (Hear, hear.) He believed that the
purchase system had been no bar to the commercial classes
going into the army. (Hear, hear.) As to the seniority
system, an hon. and gallant officer had stated that twenty-
feur years as a subaltern was about the average ; but as
that branch of the service to which he belonged had been
doubled in late years, he had received promotion after 16
years' service ; but they could not always be going on at
the same rate. (Hear, hear.) To open up the army for the
middle classeS was a question of money; and unless the
house was prepared to pass a resolution to that effect, and
make good the sum which would be required, he must vote
against the motion of the hon. and gallant member. (Hear.)
Col. LINDSAY said he had watched the system of pur-
chase for many years, and he believed it operated well for
the service and the public. The hon. and gallant member
referred to the evidence given by Capt. M'Pherson before
the commissioners, and it was to the effect that that gallant
officer had been passed over 18 times, and he himself ac-
knowledged that if there had been no system of purchase
he would have been for it much longer period in the posi-
tion of captain. He (Col. Lindsay) was quite willing to
admit that if it could be surely proved that the system of
purchase was vicious in principle and not for the benefit of
the army or the public good, the house ought to abolish it
—(hear, hear)—and come forward and repay the money
already sunk by the officers in the service. (Hear, hear.)
But he thought no case had been shown to the house why
they should vote such a large sum for such a purpose.
(Hear, hear.) He believed the system of purchase was a
most efficient system, both for the army and the public
good—(hear, hear) and he had not heard a word pro-
pounded which had altered his views. He knew that pro-
motion without purchase had been granted to a very consi-
derable extent. In the space of 211 years before the Crimean
war, 428 officers arrived on an average of 25 years at the
position of lieut.-colonel, while those by purchase arrived
at the same grade in 22 years and 8 months. He thought
that was sufficient to show that the system of purchase was
useful in giving youth and vigour to the ranks of the army.
Again, he might observe that the system of purchase had
been beneficial to the poor man as well as to the State.
In the French army there was a system of compulsory
retirement at certain ages and at certain rates of pay.
A lieutenant-general retired at sixty five years of age on a
pension of from £3OO to £350 per annum ; a lieutenant •
colonel at 62, on a pension of from £l2O to £150; a cap-
tain at 53, on a pension of from £9O to £lOO ; the sums
varied according to length of service. (Hear, hear.) He
could not conceive it possible that such a system could exist
in the British army. The idea of a major being obliged to
retire at 56 years of age, and a captain at 53, was absurd.
The system of purchase was quite compatible with the
principle of examination. (Hear.) He spoke from expe-
rience, because he had the honour of commanding a bat-
talion, and he had conducted an examination of officers.
Before entering the army the candidates were examined by
a board of examiners, but he thought that in many in-
stances the questions were utterly absurd. (Hear, hear.)
He would repeat that, if the present system of retirement
from the army was wrong, it would be the duty of the
house to find a large sum of money for the purpose of alter-
ing it. (Hear.) The total number of officers of the army
on retired full pay was 8,167, the amount they received
£56,714. On the other hand, the number of such officers
of the seniority corps of the Royal Artillery was 1,072, and
the amount received by them £32,232, being only £24,000
less than the amount received by eight times the number
of officers of the army. The retired pay must therefore be
enormous if they wished to have an exodus out of the
various ranks of the army which would secure efficiency.
No doubt merit ought to be the ground of reward ; but in
time of peace merit was a very difficult thing to ascertain ;
and the merits of the best officers could not be discovered till
they were displayed in the field. It might appear a singular
argument, but he certainly thought there was a certain
amount of control and discipline connected with the system
of purchase. Men knew that they had embarked a certain
amount of capital in the service, and that knowledge exer-
cised a certain degree of control over them. The system of
purchase had stood the test of both peace and war, and he
believed it promoted the efficiency of the army, and was ler
the public good.
Col. P. HERBERT felt great regret at being obliged to
oppose the gallant general (Sir De L. Evans) on a military
question ; but lie must say that on a subject like that, which
excited general attention among large constituencies who
had not much acquaintance with it, he should rely more on
the gallant general's opinion if he was further removed
from Westminster. He understood him to say that in the
Crimea the horses of the artiilery suffered in a much greater
proportion than those of the cavalry.
Sir DE L. EVANS said he stated the reverse.
Col. P. HERBERT said the artillery lost, he believed,
comparatively speaking, quite as many horses as the cavalry.
Certainly that was the case as regarded the two batteries
which were under the personal command of the gallant
general himself. The 360 horses with which the force be-
gun was reduced to 40 or 50. (Hear, hear.) He hoped
the house would not allow itself to be carried away by the
opinions of officers of foreign armies. In conversation with
such persons he had found them under an impression that
in this country a rich man was able to purchase commis-
sions over the head of any one who had not as much money
as himself—in fact, that the commissions were all obtained
by the highest bidders ;, and when he explained to them
that their promotion was a strictly seniority one, and that
if the officer otherwise entitled could pay a certain amount,
no one could purchase over his head, their opinion of the
system seemed at once to be modified. He was willing to
rest the defence of the purchase system on the grounds of
the efficacy of the service and public economy. Hethought
no one, would deny that, generally speaking, it was desir-
able that officers of all grades should be in the vigour of
life, but at the same time the house must consider what
would be the cost of the retirement which would be neces •
sary to keep up the system of promotion. Take the case
of the East India Company's army. The retirement on
full pay as captain was allowed in it after 18 years'
service, and as major after 22 years' service; yet the pro-
motion in that army was before the mutiny lamentably slow
among officers of all ranks. The system of purchase existed
in the East India Company's service, which was a remark-
ably oppressive one, and he believed that many young offi-
cers had been forced into debt by that which was not dis-
tinctly optional, as it is infour own army. (Hear, hear.)
As regarded the Royal Artillery and Engineers, between
1830 and 1840, several subalterns were promoted to be cap-
tains, after from 20 to 22 years' service, and several con-
tinued captains after from 20 to 29 years' service. Was that,
he asked, a system-to which the house wished to reduce the
rest of the army? (Hear, hear.) He admitted that the
case of old and meritorious officers was deserving of consi-
deration, but in point of fact it was considered at the Horse
Guards, and it should be borne in mind that such persons
entered the service, well knowing to what system they were
to be subjected. Thegrounds upon which he placed his op-
position were those of efficiency and economy to the public
service, as he believed that if the motion were successful it
would affect both in a most injurious manner.
Mr. S. HERBERT said that the subject which they had
been called on to discuss was one of the most complicated and
difficult that could be well submitted to their consideration
and it would be wise in coming to it, if they first attempted
c;early to understand and to define the questions which they
were about to discuss. He agreed inthe abstract proposition
that seniority was in itself a bad system of promotion ; but
when they used that expression it seemed to imply that it
was something unknown to our present system, and which
never had baen had recourse to. But the fact was, they had
several distinct corps, which, although said to be governed
on different principles, still kept up this practice. They had
the cavalry and infantry of the line, the two scientific corps,
and the Indian army, all of which were seniority corps, but
ith this difference, that in the Queen's service the system
-was accelerated by purchase, and in the Indian army it was
seniority only. In sll, the man who stood next to a death
vacancy got it, and the first man got the first chance of pur-
chase. Still it was seniority, but seniority modified or ac-
celerated by purchase. But there was no subject so much
overlaid with arguments which were not tenable, and with
statements of gross exaggeration, as was this question of
purchase. He had been sorry to bear the hon. and gallant
member for Westminster making such extravagant asser-
tions against the system. (Hear.) He was not sure that his
gallant kinsman opposite had paid attention to one of the
statements of the hon. and gallant member, viz., that the
loss of horses by the cavalry in the Russian war was owing
to purchase, whilst the immunity of the artillery horses
must be set down to the absence of purchase in that corps.
(A. laugh.) On the other hand, they had been told that pur-
chase won the battle of Waterloo, and it was confidently
asserted that the spirit of our army was derived solely front
this artificial system. But the gallant member for Westmir-
ster went further in an opposite direction, for he said that
not only was purchase incompatible with education, but
that money and education were perfectly antagonistic.
That was a great social, moral, and educational discovery,
but it was ono he must say he could not bow to, (Hear,
hear.) He, on the contrary, s4hould be inclined to say that
poverty and ignorance went together, inasmuch as that
education must cost money, and that money was most