The Sun.
London, England, 1860-07-13 00:00:00

amount of the East India claim due to us in the course o:

the year, supposing that the war lasts for a year,
and that the ships are kept on for that time. The War.
office estimate includes the following items :—Difference
between British and India rates of pay, allowances to
wives and children, cost of natives attached to the force,
&c., for 10,985 Europeans, £526,355 ; cost of 7,623 native
troops, including pay, allowances, provisions, &c.,
£182,715 ; extra clothing and necessaries, £50,000 ;
extra provisions, forage, land transport, &c., £268,000 ;
extra warlike and other stores, £150,000 ; extra hospital
charges, including hospital ships, £284,208 ; sanitary esta-
blishments at the Cape, £23,792 ; estimated cost of native
Indian troops previously in China, £67,666—making a total
of £1,552,736. Then there is the Admiralty estimate to the
amount of £359,017. From the total a deduction must be
made of the sums which may not come into payment during
the year 1860-61. The estimate had been fixed roughly, as
I have stated, at £3,800,000. I will not now enter into the
policy of the war, because I have already had an opportu-
nity of expressing my own opinions on that matter when the
question was raised at the earlier part of the session. At
one time there was'every reason to hope from the advices
which were received that hostilities would have come to an
end, and that a great demonstration of force would alone
have proved sufficient to procure us redress for the outrages
which had been committed at the mouth of the Peiho. We
have been disappointed in that hope. Those, however, who
are best informed on the subject still maintain that the chief
who is at the head of the war party in China, and who dis-
tinguished himself by the arrangements he made for our
repulse at the Peiho, stands too near the Throne to be
agreeable to the Emperor of China. He derives great
power from the party of which he is the organ, and till
some defeat or disaster happens to him, there is little like-
lihood of a change in the policy of the Chinese Govern-
ment. But should any reverse befall him, it would be
gladly made use of by the Government to reverse a policy
which has been originated by one of whom they are so
jealous. These are mere speculations, it may be said, but
they come from an authoritative saline. Her Majesty's
Government would certainly receive with the greatest de-
light and satisfaction any news that would encourage us in
the hope that we are likely to enter into a better state of re-
lations with the Chinese. (Hear.) In the meantime I think
no one can deny that we are bound to provide for the pos-
sibility of continuing hostile operations. We have very
large forces in China exposed to a deadly climate, and we
are bound to do everything to enable them to bring the
contest to a speedy and successful issue. (Hear, hear.) Un-
der these circumstances, I do not believe the House will be
staggered even by the large amount of this estimate. Our
commanders in China are men in whom we have a right to
repose the greatest confidence, for they are tried men. I
have received from General Hope Grant the expression of
his confidence in and admiration for the activity, resources,
and forethought which he sees displayed by Admiral Hope.
Of General Hope Grant's own judgment, prudence, and
energy I have formed the highest opinion from the com-
munications 1 have had with him. I think that the view
he took of the question as to the pay of the troops showed
great judgment, and on another instance he also displayed
a wise discretion. When ordered to occupy Chusan as a
depot, he found that the lodgings for the troops were
small, inconvenient, damp, and excessively unhealthy.
He therefore decided not to endanger the health of
his men by leaving them at Chusan, and, taking upon
himself the responsibility of disobeying instructions, he at
once carried them to a neighbouring island of sandy soil,
well watered, and wholesome. Indeed, in all his actions it
was impossible not to be struck with the judgment and
foresight displayed by General Hope Grant, as well as by
the second in command ; and we may safely rely upon it
that whatever can be done by brave and practised soldiers,
will be accomplished by our forces in China. Looking at
the late period of the session, it is important for the Govern.
ment and for the country that this matter should bo decided
as soon as possible; and, without making any further ob-
servations, I beg to move that a sum of £3,800,000 be
granted to her Majesty for the China war.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY, referring to the former ex-
penditure in China, said that,. at the beginning of the sea-
r. was entertamea that tour unnis.,-.e
were about to be expended. Instead of their expenditure
being only 70 millions, it would be nearer 74 millions.
(Hear, hear.) It was to him quite inexplicable how the
right hon. gentleman could estimate a surplus of half a
million when there was a balance owing for the late
Chinese war. He would suggest that the £3,800,000 ought
to be divided into two parts. What had been voted already
this year brought the expenditure for the Chinese war up
to £4,600,000, independent of the balance of £400,000 that
remained owing. He understood a noble earl, who had been
Governor •General of India; to say, in another place, that
he found no difficulty in making out the estimate for the
Chinese war. As to the war itself, he thought they could
not enter into a more ruinous war than the war with China.
That, however, was determined on, and he thought it would
be very satisfactory that this large amount of expenditure
should be divided.
Mr. HANKEY understood the right hon. gentleman to
say that troops in India ought not to be employed in a war
with China at the expense of the Government of India.
He wanted to know how far the outstanding debt between
this country and India stood open, and how much was to
be paid by India.
Sir S. NORTHCOTE said it would be difficult to appor-
tion the payments to the different items, but they might
state that a portion of the vote was to be applied to the old
balance of upwards of £400,000.
Mr. S. HERBERT said the outstanding debts with
India were running debts, and the charges for recruiting
were not in this vote, because that was a running debt.
General PEEL said there was a charge of £l7 for every
infantry soldier sent to India, and the expense of every man
sent from India would be repayable to the Indian Govern-
ment—£l7 for every infantry soldier, £25 for every cavalry
soldier, and £5O for every artillery soldier. Was any por-
tion, he would ask, of the £3,800,000 spent, and what por-
tion of it ? He thought, if it were possible, there should
be a distinction drawn between prospective and retrospec-
tive expenditure.
Mr. S. lIERBERT said not one farthing of the present
vote would be spent upon the last year. The £850,000
voted at the beginning of the session would be applicable
for that purpose, but he could not tell what portion of it
had been spent.
Tho CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—The hon.
baronet the member for Evesham has expressed his surprise
at the large amount of money which the house is asked to
grant on account of the war with China, and in that sur-
prise I myself was, I must confess, disposed to share, when
the enormous amount required was first brought under my
notice. The present state of things has been with the Go-
vernment only a recent discovery, for although it was ob-
vious ever since our proposals had been rejected by the
Chinese, that war would in all likelihood ensue, yet
it was only within a short period that we were
enabled to form anything like an accurate conjecture
as to the probablo oxpondituit, would be ren-
dered necessary, and I need scarcely add that every fresh
communication tends to show that the limits of the demand
must be extended. But the hon. baronet contends that it
was wrong to state in the House of Commons in February
last that there would be a surplus of half a million in round
numbers on the balance of revenue and expenditurs,
when outstanding debts to about the same amount
were due to the (East India Company which the Govern..
ment must have known would become payable. Now, on
that point the hon. baronet is entirely in error, for the
Government had not the smallest knowledge that the money
would become payable, nor am I aware they could possess
any such information. The fact is, that this money was
found to have become payable after a close inquiry into
running accounts, consisting of a great variety of items and
a lengthened correspondence and discussions with respect to
them, which extended over a number of years. For my
own part, I had no knowledge whatever, when the estimates
of the year were framed, as to what sums were likely to be-
come payable between the East India and the Home Govern-
ment, nor did I think any officer of the Government could
have furnished me with any prospective information on the
subject. But the lion. baronet has gone further, and con-
tends
that the Government ought not to have entertained
any project for the general reconstruction or modification of
the taxation of the country at a time when there was so
large an expenditure as that for the China war in prospeos.
Now, the answer to that charge must, in a great measure,
depend upon how far the Government were in possession of
information on the subject beyond that which was open to
every member of the House. Let me far a moment sup-
pose that we had peculiar means of estimating the proba-
ble amount of the expenditure in question, and that we had
in consequence known in February last that it would bo
necessary to make provision for £3,806,000 ; it is obvious
that in order to do so we roust have asked the house, even
though no tax were repealed and no commercial
treaty with France were concluded, to impose
£2,000,000 or 3,000,000 in the shape of fresh taxes on
the country, a proposal which, in my opinion, it would
be most unreasonable on our part to make. The
truth of the matter is—and this, however, is the moral to
be drawn from discussions such as this in which we are
engaged—that it is utterly impossible to estimate the
entire charge for a war arising under circumstances such as
those in which that with China has originated. Them
were but two elements upon which to found a decision in