The Sun.
London, England, 1856-03-06 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, THURSDAY EVENING, MARCH 6, 1856,

interfere with anything connected with the levy- versant with thishubject who say that there has hitherto been
in, of a fund, or its application. for the main- no quarrotordiseensionsalmutchurchratesie thetrreepective
tenance of the fabric. They ought not, how-
localities, but that the rates have been peaceably ordered
ever, to be denied participation in the ordinances
and collected ; but when you have a certain slumber
of men
of the Church. Nothing could be mores suicidal on the objecting to the rate, and thereupon released from its pay-
part of the Church than to refuse all tee come within its ment, do not expect that peace will any longer prevail.
(Hear.) Instead of living in their present state, parishes,
where no rates aro paid but where peace exists, another
portale. Admitting this prospective a bsolition of church j
rates in the manner be had stated, the Government parishes where rates are paid, and where harmonyewise
would support the second reading of this bill, and in corn- prevails, my hon. friend proposes to introduce a new ele-
mittee bring forward amendments to meet their views mont of dissension and disunion, and, in fact, to disturb
on this question, and remedy what cbefects there might that very peace which now exists, and which it is the
be in the details of the bill. Church rates now were as object of any measure on this subject to promote. For
uncertain as voluntary contributions, but it was desir- thesne reasons I do not think the proposition which has
naheentstiisbr=ed
t 0
00 tlbeaedhotuo sae
solatitskfaectpoarrt
eottflemtheenGt
of this
able a substitute should be provided in voluntary con-
tributions assisted by a" fabric fund," cihargeable on the
estion. (Cyheers.) I should be very satisfactory
were able
property of landowners within the parish towards making
to point out to the house any plan for its immediate settle-
'up any deficiency that might arise. Elie did not look
merit which, in my opiuiou, would be satisfactory. I have
on voluntary contributions as being so capricious a stated, on former occasions, that church rates are a charge
source of income as many hon. members imagined. He upon the laud, and that I think they ought to remain
referred to many of the anomalies of the present law with chargeable upon the laud. (Hear.) In my opinion, if
reference to town and rural parishes. landowners were to consent to the immediate abolition of
Mr. DRUMMOND said the amendments proposed church rates, although they might make some immediate
by the Government to this measure would so alter it that pecuniary saving, they would adopt a short-sighted policy.
Hear.) I therefore, most unwillingly, but very decidedly,
it would be but fair if it were withdrawnandthteoGaoll- (
vernment to bring in another. He objected must give my vote against the second reading of this bill,
of the proposed alterations in the law of church rates.because I think it will not mitigate the evil which it seeks
(Hear,) He referred to the establishment of church
to remedy. I must say, however, that if this bill really
carried into effect the object professed in its title, " to
rates, which were as old as the establishment of Chris- abolish church rates and to taco other provisions in lieu
tianity in this country, and that of churchwardens, which thereof," and if such substitute could be found and such
dated so far back as 1147. . A national church was that other provision were made, I should be ready to vote for
church which a sovereign supported, and the reason why its second reading and to consider its details in committee.
the people had dissented from the Church was I find, however, as the noble member for Colchester has
from the heads of the Church depriving them of well pointed out, that the bill will only place the alms and
voluuteey offerings of members of the Church under the
the necessary accommodation by the introduction of
contre't of persons who may or may not be members of that
pews. The heads of the Church were the enemies of
Chnrch Suppose any member of the Church . of England
the Church, and not the Dissenters. The Braintree case
were
was now settled by the decision of the House of Lords, to say :—" I think there is great danger lest the
chapels of Protestant Dissenters should fall into decay for
who had reversed the judgments of !earned judges on
the question. The House of Lords would not allow want of adequate repairs, and I therefore propose a bill
which will place the voluntary offeri
electedthee and to be called
pull down their own. (Laughter.) Every owner auditors, who shall see that no abuse takes place, but that
of a house held it on the understanding that it should the money be properly applied to the maintenance of
contribute towards church rates, and if the Government dissenting chapels ;" I think the Dissenters would net thank
abolished church rates the property should be valued and
the gentleman who made such a proposal, but would say :
compensated accordingly. "As you, the State, contribute nothing to us, and as we
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL addressed the house have the means of building and repairing our chapels, w©
beg you to leave us alone." I say, then, with regard
in consequence of the noble lord, the mover of the
to those parishes in which church rates have been
amendment, saying, in the course of hie speech, that the abolished that Churchmen will be better off if you leave Lion, members who voted last session in favour of a them alone than if you meddle with them. With respect
similar measure were headed by a " reckless Attorney- to other parishes in which church rates are collected, it
General," and defended his conduct from such a personal may be necessary in some cases to provide that the contri-
attack. butions of Churchmen should bo applied to the purposes
Lord J. RUSSELL—I have listened with great atten- '
for which they were given
churchwarden appointed by •
him might take care that such but the incumbent and the
tion to the speech of the Secretary for the Home Depart- fund.; were properly applied, and this object could be
mint, and I had hoped that, when there were measures be effected by a much less complicated scheme than that pro-
fore the house on the subject of church rates, my right posed by the hon. baronet. lam exceedingly sorry that
hen. friend might have been enabled, on the part of the we do not seem much nearer than we were to the settle-
ment of this long-vexed question. Certainly I for one can-
Government, to indicate some course which, if it did not
net assent to the principle put forward by the Protestant
meet with general or universal assent, might at least have Dimentera that, as a matter of conscience, church rates
satisfied the majority of this house, and have smoothed the ought to bo abolished. When it was proposed in former
difficulties which attached to the question before us. That days that Dissenters should not be compelled to attend
church, and that they should not be prevented from having
tartly must be one of the foremost to admit, because, hay-
there are difficulties connected with this question I cer-
chapels of their own, it was very properly argued that it
was a principle of religious liberty that they should be
ing often endeavoured to frame a measure which would
allowed to worshi God according to their own fms ;
satisfy others as well as myself, Icannot say that I have ever it was not then cop ntended that they should not be cobiut
been successful successful in the attempt. With respect to the propo- pelled to make any payment to the national Church. That
m has arisen iu mhre modern times. It seeins to me to
sal which my right hon. friend the Home Secretary has
boaa art, but only a part of the voluntary principle; but
made on behalf of her Majesty's Movernment, he has oho- I cannot believe with the hon. member forthe Tower Ham-
sen the inconvenient course, as I think, of not bringing into lets, that complete and universal peace would follow the
this house a measure founded upon the principles ho has enactment of the bill which he proposes. On the contrary,
indicated—(cheers from the Opposition)—but while pro-
I believe that hiving carried this measure,
msure, having ding a
sane-
posing to sanction by his vote and by the votes of his col- tinned the abolition of church rates without pro
leagues a bill framed in a very different spirit—(renewed
substitute,fresh attacks would be made, and, not beingcheers)—he holds out the hope that he will be able to in-countenance or favour those attacks, I shall op-
wi willing to
op-
troduce in committee, not some simple alterations merely, pose the second reading of the bill. (Cheers.)
but material and somewhat complicated provisions. I Lord PALMERSTON—Sir, after the censure my noble
must say that, however I may object to the bill introduced friend has passed upon the course which her Majesty's
by my hon. friend (Sir W. Clay), I think -the course he has Government have, upon full consideration, determined to
taken and
intelligible. the
(C prohepers.) osal hI
have understood my hon e has made are in themselves
friend very
pursue with reference to this subject, I feel it my duty to
.
address some observations to the house. This question is
and other hon. members, whose names are upon the back
of his bill, to have said repeatedly that they think it is a undoubtedly surrounded by the greatest possible difficulties.
great hardship to compel Dissenters from the Church of If that had not been the cams it wenld long since have been
England to centribute to the maintenance of the fabric of a settled by seine legislative enactment. Having seen the
church which they do not attend, and to pay for the support .
() us plans which have been proposed by different mem-
of a form of worship from which they conscientiously dis- van
sent ; and that from such a hardship Dissenters ought to hereof this house with the view of effecting a settlement, and
be relieved. Ido not agree in that proposition ; but the having fully considered a great variety of suggestions which
proposal itself is a perfectly clear one, and one that I have been made to us from other quarters, we prepared that
should be prepared, if necessary, to argue at this mement sch
with my hon. friend. But then comes the Secretary of eme which my right hon, friend the Secretary for the
State, who wakes, on the part of the Government, a prope-
Home Department has to-night explained. Our opinion
sal which places us in this position :—We must consider was that this plan would be most conveniently submitted
whether it would he advisable to accept, as it at present to the consideration of Parliament by being proposed in
stands, the bill of my hon. friend, to which, as I have said, committee as an amendment to the bill of my hon. friend
I object ;or to accept the proposal of the right hon. the the member for the Tower Hamlets. Although my noble
Horne Secretary ; or, lastly, whether it would not bo bet- friend has been abinulaut in his censures and in his condom-
ter, rather than accept either of those proposals, to leave nation of the course we are prepared to follow, I did not
the law in its present state, even admitting that state to discover from his speech that he could suggest any other
be unsatisfactory. (Cheers from the Opposition.) I con- plan which he thoeght more deserving of the approval of
cede-0 that the case as it stands at present is this:—Hero is Parliament. (" Hear," and cheers.) My noide friend
an ancient law, declared to be so by the most eminent maintains that the church rate is the property of the
judges of the land, which imposes on each parish the legal Church by ancient prescription and by thelaw of the land;
obligation of repairing the fabric of the parish church, but when ho endeavoured to show that the existing law of
and providing for the celebration of divine worship in the land enabled the Church to avail itself of this property,
that church. Chief Justice Tindal and Lord Truro, among he utterly failed in doing so, for he was obliged to confess
other learned judges, have maintained that this legal obli- that the law, as now declared by the highest authorities,
cation exists ; but they have said at the same time that it is impotent for his purpose, and that practically the
is an obligation which could not be enforced against the church rate is a voluntary contribution in each parish of
will of a majority of the parishioners. They have asserted the kingdom. I say ''a voluntary contribution," because,
not that the obligation ceased or that the law was abro- according to the law, as it has been declared to stand, it
gated, but that the obligation is ono that can be evaded. depends upon the voluntary act of the ratepayers in each
(Cheers.) Well, it appears to me that the persons who parish whether they will or will not raise this particular
have a grievance en this subject are, in fact, the members rate. It is, then, a mockery to tell the Church that it pos-
of the Established Church—(Cheers from the Opposition)— senses a property of which it is unable to avail itself, of
' because they may say—here is an ancient law imposing an which it may be deprived by the vote of a majority of
obligation, which was confessedly intended for and neeen- the ratepayers, and from which we know that in a great
sary to the sustentation of the Established Church, but that number of the most populous parishes of the kingdom it
obligation cannot be enforced. some persons may say, as has been unable to-derive any benefit. The course we in-
my right hon. friend has said to-night —" If we were to tend to pursue is to recognise the existing state of things
attempt to give force and validity to the law and to cone- in parishes where church rates are levied, and to provide
pet persons to fulfil the obligation, e hide groat judges another arrangement for those parishes in which a different
have said attaches to them, we should disturb the peace of set of cil cunettauces has arisen. But my noble friend says
the country, we should create a great deal of ill-feeling. that part of our plan lays the foundation of peereteel
and we should provoke hostility to the church itself." I strife. Whir proacut crate of tee law? Why, you
think the church may fairly anewor, That is a question are liable to have in every perish every year that battle in
for Ministers of State; we accept your allegation; we aro the vestry which any noble friend wishes to aveid—thete
willing to acquiesce in what you my ; we will not :Attempt struggle whether a rate shall or shell not be imposed, and
to enforce obligatiens, which, in your opinion, mightaff et the recent decisions of the courts are au encouragement to
the peace of the community; but do tell us in what other the continuance of such contests. Unless some other ar-
way you propose to provide for the maintenance of the rargernent is adopted it is perfectly plsin that the peace
church." (Cheers ) My sight hon. friene asys, we propose aud harm soy which it i-- the object of my noble friend,
a measure which will legalise what is admitted to be a and I trust of every member of this house, to establish,
practical evasion, a successful defeat of the law, and we ask cannot by any possibility be expected to prevail. Then I
for this resistance to the law the sanction of the Legislature. say the course which we propose to pursue is one which in
in my opinion, this proposal increases the claim of the reason ought to recommend itself to the approbation of
church to some stibetitute for that which you propoxe to take Parliament. What says authority on the subject ?
away—(ehoero—hut does my right hon. friend go on to pro- My noble friend, indeed, di-darns authority. With
pose that substitute—does he attempt to do what the hon. all hie eespect and veneration fer the Church, he
member for the Tower Hamlets proposes to do, and I have throws over, without the slight nt hesitation, the opia-
no doubt sincerely believes he will accomplish, though I ions of the head of the Church, sanctioned by the dig-
think he may fail—with the view of effecting complete nitaries of the Church, and ferm illy proposed to Parlia-
and universal peace on this subject ? My right hon. friend meat in tho shape of a bill submitted for the consideration
does uo such thing. (Cheers.) I understand that he pro- of the other house. We have heard, on the continent. of
poses to continue this impost in parishes where the majority people who were more royalist than the king. My noble
of the ratepayers chuoie to carry the law into effect, but friend is a (Teeter Churchman than the heal of the Church
he says to the opponents of the impost :—" If you call get himself. (A laugh.) I think the house will be more dis•
a mujonty • if by contest, by repeated agitation, by discus- posed to give its
favourable consideration to a measure
sions in the vestry year after year, by hot and vehement which, upon full deliberation, the leaders ea the Church
and even riotous debates you can make it unpleasant to have thought not inconsistent with the interests of the
aga Churc
insth the men to attend the vestry, and so gain a majority Church than it will be to listen to the arguments of those
rate, then you will have your reward." Is this who want things to remain in their present state. We have
proposal one that is likely to satisfy the church? Is it one been brought into a condition in which there is no alter-
that will meet the claims of those who allege their con. native between that which hon. gentlemen opposite wish
suientions objections against the payment of this impost ?to do—to make the levy of church rates compulsory upon
Is it on. that is likely to establish peace? I venture to every parish and upon every rate-payer in every parish—
say that it will do no one of these three things. If we give or coming to some arrangement such as that which we have
up the rights of the church, let us satisfy the Dissenters thrown out for the consideration of Parliament. To revert
and gain the peace they promise us. If we refuse to satisfy to That which was believed anciently to be the law is what,
the Dissenters, then let us in some way or other provide I think, the house will not be prepared to do. In the pre-
fer that which is a fair claim for the church. But that a sent state of religious differences the house will not, I am
Government should do neither of these things, but should sure, adopt a measure to make a church rate coinpuleery—
in the midst of a conflict interpose with a measure which compulsory upon every perish to levy, and compulsory
would not still the waves, brit add fresh violence to the upon every parishioner to pay. That is entirely out of the
storm, is a course which I think will hardly receive the question, and if auybrely were rash enough to propose it
sanction of this house. My right hon. friend, in order to there would not bo the slightest chance of such a measure
make tie matter still more complicated, proposes that receiving the ,:sent of-Parliament. What, then, are we to
those persons who object to paying church rates, and who, do ? Shull we allow things to remain as they are? That
being the minority in the parish, might be coerced by the would be to sanction the abolition of church rates in a
vote of the majority into such payment, shall be at liberty, great number of parishes, and to lay the foundation of dis-
when the rate-book is carried round, to state their objec- cord and strife- to use the words of my noble friend—in
tions thereto— all those parishes in which they have hitherto been levied.
Sir G. GREY—No, to state that they are not members I believe that the course which we propose to pursue is tho
of the Church of England. only rational and safe one. We propose that where the
Lord J. RUSSELL—I was coming to that. When the rate has not been levied, or where it shall not be levied,
rate-book is carried round, they are to say, not that they there it shall be voluntary in one sense of the wend—that
are Dissenters of a particular persuasion, or Roman Ca- is to say, those who do not mg and themselves as members
tholics, but that they are not members of the Church of of the Church of England shall not be liable to have the
England, and thereupon they may claim exemption. Now rate forced upon there ; liut, on the other hand, we provide
this proposal seems to :no to embarrass the question still fur an organisation for the proper application of those sums
further. I have on former occasions stated my objections which, either by voluntary coutribution or by the payment
to such a proposition, and I certainly think that the ex- et a rate, shell be available for the repair of the fabric of
emptien of persons who merely eay that they are not Church- the church and the maintenance of divine worship. That
r men would have a tendency to create great discord in pa- is a plan which, lam sure, the more it is considered the
rishes. I arty be forgiven fur saying that upon this subject more hon. members will feel it to be admirably calculated
I have always been afraid of two classes of men. The that to obviate the difficulties of the case. If any hon. gentle-
class are those who, saying Tory fairly that they object to man can suggest a better wo shall be ready to consider it—
an Established Church, and that they do nut think it right (laughter from the Opposition) ;—but I eel that a strenuous that the church of a portion of the people should be called and sincere effort should at length bef reads to settle this
a national church, wish to resort to the voluntary system question, to which we have gevun the best consideration in
and propose to attack this work, thinking it to be, as it our power. (HeAr, hear.) We believe that the arrange-
certainly is, much weaker than the citadel, in the hope meets which toy right honourable friend has explained
that in time they will carry the citadel itself. (Cheers.) will be calculated to accomplish the object in view, and we
There is another class of men to whom I fear that shall be prepared, when the bill goes into committee, to
most reverend prelate the Archbishop of Canterbury has ley those arrangements in greater detail [mama the house.
listened rather too ranch, who, being not only Church. We are told that wo ought to have brought in a separate
man, but very high Churchmen, are must anxious to sopa- bill—(cheers from the Opposition)—that we ought to have
rate the clergy and laity of the Established Church from the rejected the measure now before the house, because it went
community in a"emeriti, to cut eff those who are Protesteut further than wo were prepared to go, and that we ought to
Dissenters, and whose doctrines theydo not deem orthodox, have gone into the same lobby with those who differ from
from any concern in the affairs of the ch arch, and thereby us as widely as hon. gentlemen opposite do, for the par.
in the end to create a sectarian establishment, which I pose of voting aminet a bill whieli in part we approve, in
think would not long maintain the dignity or the pos• order afterwards to bring in a measure of our own. That
sessions of the national establishment. My rightkon. friend course would not have been at all consistent with the pur-
profsses that men shall be exempt from the payment of poses we have in view. (A. laugh.) We agree with the
church rates because they are not Churchmen, and that present bill in regard to those parishes in which church
such persons shall not have a voice in the parish vestry rates have hitherto not been levied. We agree with the
whenever any question a: hies in which a vote is taken. I principle of the bill as app kaiak, in future to parishes in
think this proposal, which would fix a mark on these per- which the rate may be refused. It would, therefore, have
sons, and in all probability on their children and descend- been inconsistent with the opinions we entertain to simply
ants, as not belonging to the church, is calculated to give reject the bill. We believe that we can make it a good
a sectarian character to the Church of England, which I ineasare, and I flatter aneself that when our alterations and
trust will still continue to he the national church of the amendments shall have been submitted to the considera-
great mass of the people. There is many a man who at one tion of Parliament, they will inset with general approba-
time of his life doss nut much like the Church of Eng!and, tien. (Cheers.)
who entertains objections to the church cervices, and who Mr. MIA LL, who rose amid loud calls fora division, was
will not a- tend church, but who, perhaps some three or sure the house would not be guilty of the injustice of coma Ifour years later forms different opinions, who becomes an I attendant at church, and who maintains his right to attend ing to a vote without listening to one of those Dissenters
the vestries. New, I think it is not desirable to put a mark whose interests were chiefly affected by the bill. The noble
desirous that theanetho
eryio,haoli.eindataottt,tedmthferovaistthiec3h.unrdeitia.kenl77,;h lord the member for Colchester had professed to discern in
part in the proceedings as they may thinkt a
therefore, object to that part ofmy aightllor.“-forterri:i'ae aiLeal! the bill a machinery intended to encroach upon the liberty
of Churchmen to manage their own affairs. He could as-
sure which might affect their right to do so. But, let us suro the noble lord that the Dissenters wore not only will-
consider this rate, in itself of very ti i thee amount, in the ing to give up the entire machinery, but would.prefer to have
light in which it is regarded by the farmers in country the two abolition clauses pure aid simple. The machinery
parishes. They say that this rate is levied
hoes a ver was constructed by an eminent friend and professor of the
ancient law, that the fabric of the church is mucp ctedY and that everybody who has property should pay towards Church of England, not with a view to please the Dissenting
the repair of that fabric. The rate may be a half-penny, a body or to accomplish their objects, but to remove certain
penny, or perhaps three half-pence in the pound, and it is legal obstacles which were referred to in debate two or three
paid by the great majority of the farmers, but then they are years ago by the right hon. gentleman the member for
told that Farmer Such-a-one and Farmer Such-another, Oxford University, and to provide for the application of
jand the baker and the tailor in the village, have all ob- voluntary contributions in the safest and most practicable
ected to pay the rate, on the allegation that they are act manner. He must be permitted to refer to one fallacy which
Churclinsi n with nit making any particular declaration cf ran through the entire argument of the opponents of the
faith, and that therefore the payments of these who con- bill, and Which was not only popular in that house, bat pre-
tribute to the rate will be proportionately increased. Of veiled widely out of doors. To telk of " our Church," con-
course if there are 200 persons in the parish liable to the ; tributions merle to "our Church," property settled on " our
rate, and i 0 object to its payment, it will fall so much more Church," wan to speak as if the Church of England were a
heavily on the other 150; and in this way you will cause ; community separate from the nation at large. He did not
Mean dissensions in parishes. I "lave had letters without understand that. He stood there on his right as a British
ens, franc clanent puts of the country, from persons con• subject to regulate a national institution in which he 11l