The Sun.
London, England, 1869-03-24 00:00:00

SPIRIT OF THE PUBLIC JOURNALS, I IMPERIAL PARLI A NEIS '

The Times, in considering the close of the debate on the
Irish Church and the subsequent division, remarks that
the majority is great, overwhelming, decisive ; it is
equal to the most sanguine hopes of the friends of the
bill ; it exceeds the anticipations of many ; yet it kindles
but a slight feeling of triumph, so much had the certainty
of victory taken away the excitement which hangs on a
doubtful struggle. It is, of course, within the power of
the Conservative party to insist upon using every oppor-
tunity and employing every weapon of resistance, but Mr.
Hardy himself confined his threat of stubborn resistance
to the House of Commons, and he would probably ac-
knowledge the unwritten principle upon the observance
of which the stability of the Constitution depends.
It must never be forgotten that the harmonious
working of our institutions—the avoidance of the recur-
rence of dead-locks such as lately embarrassed the free
colony of Victoria—depends upon the axiom that the
dearly-ascertained will of the people expressed at the
hustings must prevail. This truth was recognised again
and again in the debate of last year in the House of Lords,
and we cannot suppose it will be neglected this session.
The question then provisionally discussed was remitted to
the people free from all complication of side issues and
extraneous subjects, and the verdict of the country was
pronounced upon it. The division of Tuesday night was
the expression of this national judgment. The majority
of 118 which has affirmed the principle of the Ministerial
bill corresponds to a proportionate majority among the
people, and although the details of the measure may be
profitably criticised and even amended in future discus.
sions, that it will be enrolled in the statute-book must
henceforth be regarded as a certainty.
The Post observes that until the debates of the last and
of the present session there were many tolerably well-
Informed men who had no conception of what was meant
by the Irish Church. The ideas entertained were con-
fused, and for the most part erroneous. The mass of the
people simply knew nothing about the matter. They
came to regard the Church Establishment in Ireland as
something which because it existed must necessarily be
good. It has been the special mission of the present
Prime Minister to dispel the darkness. ALd this is
certainly not too strong an expression to use. It requires
a very bold man to attack an institution which has
stood for centuries, and which, moreover, rests mainly
on the prejudices and the religious partialities of
a numerical majority in the empire. But that man must
not only be bold, but must possess qualities of no ordinary
kind who can successfully persuade that majority to dis-
card its prejudices and dissipate its partialities by the
indomitable force of its will and the exercise of its reason.
The triumph of Mr. Gladstone has been, therefore,
exceedingly great. He had much to contend with, many
obstacles to overcome, many difficulties to vanquish. But
despite probabilities be has proved successful. He has
appealed to the sense of a great nation, he has asked it to
act in a spirit consonant witb.the spirit of the age in which
it now lives, and it has responded to that appeal with a
readiness and with an earnestness greater than he himself
could have anticipated.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.-LAST EVENING.

The SPEAKER took the chair at 4 o'clock.
SLIGO BOROUGH IMPROVEMENT MIL.
A short debate took place on the motion for the second
reading of this bill. The house eventually divided, when

there appeared—
For the motion .. 135
.
Against it ll9
Majority iu favour of the bill
OPENING THE MUSEUMS ON SUNDAYS.
A great many petitions were presented against the pro-
posal to open the British Museum and other public insti-

tutions on Sundays.
THE RELEASED FENIANS.
Mr. C. FORTESCUE, in reply to Sir G. Jenkinsom

said it was quite true that language of a very objection-
able character bad been used at two banquetsgiven atCork
and Ballenasloe i n honour of the released Fenian s. Only two

of those persons released had so grossly and disgracefully
abused the clemency of the Crown. (Hear, bear.) The
seditious language had not escaped the attention
of the Government, and it was now under the
consideration of the law officers of the Crown.

He hoped too much impcirtance would not be given to
the mischievous eloquence of these persons, as the Go-
vernment were not indifferent to the matter, and

were quite determined that such things should not
continue. (Hear, hear.) The persons who had been set
at liberty did not receive a free pardon, but were set
at liberty with certain conditions being enforced
on them. (Hear, hear.) - With respect to ...the case
of those persons in Australia, he had already on a
former occasion stated the intention of the Government,

AGRICULTURAL STATISTICS.

THE IRISH. CHURCH.

The Herald asserts that on Tuesday night the division
was a matter of comparatively little interest. If people
speculated at all it was as to the number by which the
majority would exceed a hundred, and when once such
large figures are assumed, it is impossible to feel much
interest in small modifications of five or ten. The majority
turned out to be one hundred and eighteen, rather more
than most people expected, but practically no greater
triumph to the Government or discomfiture to the Opposi-
tion than if it had been eighty. That it at all represents
the strength of parties in the House of Commons
we can have no hesitation about denying. With
a certainty of defeat so clearly before them, the
supporters of the Church who had any urgent
private reasons for staying at home, naturally felt no call
upon'them to respond to the formal appeal addressed to
them by the Conservative Whip ; whilst the Liberals, on
the other hand, rushed to the division in obedience to the
order which required their presence to exercise a moral
pressure upon the House of Lords. Mr. Gladstone has
carried by a majority hardly given before to any Minister
a measure which he spent the best years of his life in com-
bating. Is he to be condoled with or congratulated upon
this assuredly decisive vote in favour of a policy which he
has so vehemently opposed ? We leave that question for
the present to the speakers and the writers, who in prais-
ing the Mr. Gladstone of the present day, condemn with
such severity the Mr. Gladstone who represented Newark
and the University of Oxford.
The Daily News thinks that the splendid sanction prac-
tically given by the House of Commons to Mr. Glad-
stone's measure conveys a decision which is without
appeal. In ancient Rome, the intercession of the tribunes
of the people was good to bar the senatorial authority.
But the intercession of the popular tribunes has in the
matter of the Irish Church gone before the parliamentary
vote. The Pleb i seitum has preceded the Senatus Consultum.
The nation spoke emphatically in favour of Mr. Glad-
stone's Irish policy in the general election ; and through
its representatives it has now declared itself in favour
of the specific measure by which he proposes tc give
effect to his scheme. A declaration of opinion
and purpose so decisive determines the course which the
House of Lords must take on this matter, if it be guided
by statesmanlike regard for the public good, or even by
the instinct of self-preservation. Its function as a second
chamber is not to give effect to the personal views of a
majority of its members, but to weigh, sift out, and clarify,
so to speak, the national opinion ; to precipitate it, in
chemical phrase, by disentangling it from the foreign
ingredients with which it may be wrapt up and hidden
from common recognition. This work, however, was done
last year, and there is no valid pretence for repeating the
operation. In rejecting the Suspensory Bill of 1868 the Lords
remitted the main question to the country. The country
has pronounced in a way which admits of no other response
than that of acquiescence. The courage which might lead
the Upper House to reject Mr. Gladstone's bill would be
of that desperate and unintellectual quality for which the
name of foolhardiness has been set apart. Still a certain
degree of respect might be felt for it. The petty
treachery and malice which would endeavour stealthily to
spoil a measure, while affecting to accept, would add
popular contempt to popular indignation.
The Standard declares that there is no reasoning against
a majority, and the division list is the real reply of Mr. Gladstone to the arguments urged against his bill. Still
it augurs ill for a great political change when it can be
defended only by the brute force of numbers. The true sen
timental grievance of Ireland lies far deeper than this mea-
sure—behind all Churches, behind all questions of tenant-
right, all matters of legislative reform and parliamentary
competence. The true sentimental grievance of Ireland is
the British flag and not the British faith ; not an Established
Protestant Church, but a Protestant Establishment in every
department of the State ; a Protestant Queen, a Protes-
tant aristocracy, a Protestant Parliament, and a Protestant
policy. That grievance none of us mean to redress ; and
if we do not we shall scarcely conciliate a single disaffected
Irishman by sacrificing the property and alineating the
hearts of 700,000 Irish loyalists. This is the weakness of
Mr. Bright's argument, and the weakness of the Liberal
policy ; and we could wish that the fallacy of " concilia-
tion " had been made as clear in the course of the debate
now concluded as has been the iniquity of " disendow-
molt."

The Telegraph asks, " What will the Lords do with it V'
That is the momentous question. The Commons have
played their part. After the discussion of Tuesday, Mr.
Gladstone's bill may be altered in small points of detail,
but the principle on which it is founded is irrevocably
fixed. Mistakes cf detail there may be. A trifle too
much may be allotted to Rome ; a
trifle too little to
Armagh. Presbyterian Ulster, possibly, is entitled to
half a fish or a crust more than has been set aside by the
bill as the Ulster portion. We have not looked into the
'measure with the eye of an actuary or an auctioneer.
We
take the principle as Mr. Gladstone has laid it down;
his
consequent proposals we ad,,pt with thei" errors excFpted,t
and by all means let what is wrong n the working ou
of the scheme be made right. Let the. Commons,
in committee, carefully examine the chain link by lilt,
and find if each link rings true. Why perpetrate e
wrongs when you are struggling to do that which is so
broadly and plainly right? For the bill, in the Commons,
we have no longer any fear. Mr. Gladstone and his
majority are doing a great work. It might, indeed, have
been wished, as we have said, that somebody had briefly
told the House that we were but finding our way back to
the point from which our fathers made a false start three
centuries back, with very grievous results to themselves
and to those who came after them. We have no fear of
what will happen from this bill when it passes into law.
We look upon it as a noble legacy, bequeathed by the
British Parliament and people of the year 1869 to those
who will come after us. When such a principle as that
contained in the bill has made its way into the mind of a
great nation, fanaticism and bigotry may do their worst.
Tho Star believes the country will derive from the
results of the Irish debate all that satisfaction which
must naturally arise from the realisation of hopes long
persevered in against hope. That the Irish Church Esta•
blishrrient must disappear has long been the conviction of
all Liberal statesmen, except the few who cherished the
design of establishing Catholic and Presbyterian establish.
ments by the side. 'lb this design the people of England
have never been favourable or even tolerant. All the hopes,
therefore, of p many of the English people as were
willing to do justice to Ireland have long been fixed on
the disestablishinent of the Irish Church. But till quite
they were entertained uith the greatest difficulty.
The noble resolution of Mr. Gladstone thlt this question
should be tettlecl in the only possible 0110
way was followed,
however, by a great revival of those hopes. support
received by this policy at the elections slimed how easy it
was to arouse and draw forth the sympathies which ha I
long been cherishe
d,; and we may now find in the maj,-;-
,
• „Ir. Gladstone
iaostone's Lack—a majority, as The
said on Tuesday,representing their countrymen
in nothing 5..) fully as in kindliness of feeling towards Ire-
land—the fruitful and secure assurance of the completion
of that scheme of justice which has Leen inatured
by the Government since their accession to office. Those
who take a broad view of political progress, and who
regard the improvement of legislation as more impor-
parties, may gladly perceive,
tent than the gains of
in the grand enlightened enthusiasm of Mr. Gladstone's
closing speech, the sure promise of a lengthened day of
uninterrupted progress
such as no temporary Liberal
reverse could stay—a day
.of success which the great
Vatriotic triumph over -which we have now to rejoice
taaugurato Withpeculiar and uiattllzed brilliancy;

WAR OFFICE, PALL MALL, MARCH 23.

()'l_)on

but ho coda only say that each individual case
would be considered on its own merits. With
respect to a statement which appeared that morning in
one of the newspapers that day, that the two Fenian
convicts, O'Donovan Roser and Newby Lad been re,
leased. Such a statement had no foundation in fact.
Mr. GLADSTONE said that the Mayor of Cork might
feel confident, if he felt so disposed, "that they had Mr.
Gladstone on their side, and that all the other Fenians
would be released." (Laughter.) AU be could say wag,
that there was no intention on the part of the Govermet. t
to release any more Fenians.
THE LORD-LIEUTENANT OF IRELAND.

Mr. VANCE asked whether the right bon. gentleman

(Mr. Gladstone) could give the house any information on
the rumoured resignation by Earl Spencer of the office of
Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland.
Mr. GLADSTONE said he had no communication to
make either to the house or the hon. member on the sub-
ject. The rumour was wholly without foundation.
TEE SNIDER RIFLE.

Mr. CARDWELL said it was proposed to issue the
Snider rifle to 24 militia, regiments proceeding either to
Aldershot or Shorncliffe.

Mr. BRIGHT said it was proposed to collect the agri•
cultural statistics on the 25th of June. •

The adjourned debate on the disestablishment of the
Irish Church Bill was resumed by
Mr. WALPOLE, who said the present measure
was ono of the most arduous subjects of legislation
ever submitted to the House of Commons, as they
were for the first time in the history of civilisation
to do away with the religion of a country as a national
religion—(oh, oh, end no, no)—and so to cause what
might be termed a legislative revolution in the
religion of a portion of the country. (Hear,
hear, from the Opposition.) He objected to the bill
in the strongest manner, because it dissolved every cor-
poration and so entirely put an end to all parochial orga
nisation—(hear, bear)—because it took away the property
of the Church and invested it with commissioners—(hear,
hear)—because it deprived the Crown of appointing bishops
and the true government of the church, and because it
severed the Royal supremacy from the Chutch of the
country, through which supremacy the worship and doc-
trine of - the Church had been preserved. (" Hear,
hear," from the Opposition.) The bill he looked upon
as an attempt to introduce the voluntary principle—a
principle which had failed as far as education was con-
cerned, and which would wholly and entirely fail in the
dissemination of religion. (Hear, hear, from the Opposi-
tion.) The bill proposed altogether to divert the endow-
ments the church possessed to purposes quite different
from those for which they were made, and on that ground
( alone the bill ought not to receive the sanction of radia-
-1 went.

Sir H. BULWER descanted on the long course of mis-
government in Ireland, and urged that the question at
issue was how they were to govern that country, and in
dealing with this the hcuse should remember that they
were statesmen and not theologians.
The debate was continued by Mr. Mowbray, Mr. Agar
Ellis, Mr. Dalrymple, Mr. Miller, Mr. Verner, The O'Do-
noghuo, Lord G. Hamilton, and Mr. G. H. Moore.
Mr. G. HARDY pronounced the measure not one of
justice, but of vengeance. He believed the Church of
Ireland was doing an excellent work, and the recognition
of religion by the State was a distinct aanowledgment
of the general superintendence of the Almighty in all
human affairs. The real question was—Were the ma-
jority of the p3puLtiou to give way to the minority,
who were very gi ievtd thLt the Sovereign of the
realm was a Prat. start ? But the real fact was, that
the Church did net injure the Roman Cathol:cs in any
way. Ina very el. beret! speech he proclaimed that the
CLurch of England in Ireland had held forth the light of
the Reformation in all parts of the world, and condemned
the confiscation of what belonged to the Irish Church
alone. He reviewed the various items of the bill, com-
menting on the unjust way in which Mr. Gladstone pro-
posed to deal with the property of the Church, and quoted
from the speeches of the right hon. gentleman to show his
previous opinion that if the Irish Church was destroyed
the Repeal of the Union must be the next step. As to
the arrangements of the Government, it was nothing but
a miserable evasion of the real point.
Mr. GLADSTONE rose to reply at one o'clock, and
was warmly cheered. He deprecated the conduct of the
man who would quote a line and a half of a speech de-
livered three-and-thirty years ago to prove that he (Mr.
Gladstone) had talked of a probable course of conduct
tending to a Repeal of the Union between England and
Ireland. He consured the highly-coloured representa-
tions which had been made as to the state of Ireland
generally, which could only have been done for party
purposes. There was nothing to be seen in Ireland
but the aggregation of long misgovernment, wrong, and
oppression. The right honourable gentleman replied in
detail to the various arguments advanced in the debate,
and in conclusion said that, as rapidly us the clock was at
the time of his speaking advancing to the early dawn, so
surely and apparently Silently were the last hours of the
Irish Church Establishment approaching.
At twenty minutes past two this morning the House
I divide 1, and the numbers were—
For the second reading
Against it

Majority
The announcement of the numbers was received with
loud and repeated cheers. The division occupied twenty-
five minutes.
ADJOURNMENT FOR THE EASTER HOLIDAYS.

Mr. GLADSTONE—I move that the House at its rising
do adjourn to Thursday week. (Hear, hear.)

Agreed to.
The other orders were then disposed of, and the House
adjourned at three o'clock to Thursday, April 1.

LuNDON GAZETTE-LAST EVENING

2d Regiment of Life Guards—Lieutenant Wm. ISl'Mabon
to be Captain; Cornet Herbert Ray to be Lieutenant;
Hector Gurdon lkbow to be Cornet.

Gth Dragoon Guards—Captain Edward Napier to be
Major; Lieutenant Henry Hamilton to be Captain;
Cornet Frederick Rasch to be Lieutenant.

Ist Dragoons—Lieutenant EdWard Griffith to be Captain,
Cornet Corbet Smith to be Lieutenant ; Robert Lllewel-
Yto be Cornet.
4th n
Hussars—Lieutenant Henry Collings to be Captain ;
Cornet Edward Williams to be Lieutenant; Alfred
I
Gamblera
r tos
_b
iCeourtue net.
John St.
has Vincent Saumrez to
hl aa pml i Beaumontto be Lieuten-
ant;b e C eel) toarinne;t Cornetcharl We
Charles
retire from the Service ; William Ward to be permitted
Cornet.
3d Foot—Ensign George Carr to be Lieutenant ; Michael
Spence to bo Ensign.
4th Foot—Arthur Chamberlain to be Ensign.
Bth Foot—Captain Edward Tanner to be Major; Lieu-
tenant Martin Cole to be Captain; Ensign Lewis 'Viso
to be Lieutenant ; Ensign William Macbay to ho
Ensign.
10th Foot—Lieutenant Frederick Blanchard, to be Lieu-
tenant.
13th Foot —Ensign John Bailey to bs Lieutenant, Walter
Gaskell to be Ensign.
17th Foot—Lieutenant Richard Bros to be Captain, En-
sign Henry Nares to be Lieutenant.
18th Foot— Ensign Alfred Swindley to be Lieutenant,
ilan.pden Richards to be Ensign.
ig
20s th to Foot—Lieutenant James Smyth to be Captain, En-
n Charles Bambor be Lieutenant, Gerald Browne
to be Ensign.
36th Foot—Assistant-Surgeon James Reynolds to be
Assistant-Surgeon.
45 Foot—Lieut. Augustine Lefroy to be Captain ; Ensign
Beauchamp F. Bagenal to be Lieutenant ; Ensign
Arthur Lloyd to be Ensign.
46th Foot—Lieut. George Martin to be Lieutenant.
57th Foot—A sAn ton Biddulph to Le Ensign.
G3d Foot—Ensign Henry Going to Le Lieutenant; Henry
Pideock to be Ensign.
70th Foot—Edward King to bo Ensign.
73d Foot—Staff-Surgeon Hector Ferguson to be Ensign.
76th Foot—Staff Asssistant-Surgeon Samuel Popham,

M. 8., to be Assistant-Surgeon.
86th Foot—Lieutenant Donald Shaw to be Captain, En-
sign Francis Bertram to be Lieutenant, George Hawkins
to be Ensign.
97th Foot—Gentleman Cadet Arthur Lloyd to be Ensign,
Eustace Beva❑ to be Ensign. •
2d West India Regiment—Lieut. Charles Irwin to be In-
Str uctorol Musketry.