The Sun.
London, England, 1856-03-08 00:00:00

SUPPLY.

The house then went into committee.
On the vote of 420,000/. for establishments at home
and abroad,
Mr. WILLIAMS said that this vote included the ex-
panses of 55 establishments, while there were only ex-
planations with respect to three. More explanation
was required.
In reply to a question,
Mr. MONSELL said that the recommendations of the
committee with respect to the accommodation of married
soldiers in barracks were under consideration. Improve-
ments had been made with this view, but he feared that
the expense of completely carrying out the recommenda-
tions would be very considerable.
Mr. STAFFORD could not allow the occasion to pass
without paying a tribute of gratitude and praise to Lady
Alicia Blackwood for the care she had taken of the sol-
diers' wives at Scutari, and the improvement she had
effected in their habits and morels. _ _ _

Mr. WILLIAMS repeated his demand for further
explanation. This vote was for 112,000/. more than last
year, and it should not ba agreed to without some fuller
details.
Colonel NORTH said that the increased expense of
barracks was not the fault of the Government. For-
►nerly hon. gentlemen had complied Government to pall
down barracks which existed, and now a large part of
the public was compiaining of soldiers being billetted.
The soldiers must be quartered somewhere, and the only
thing that could be done was to erect erhire new barracks.
Mr. M. CHAMBERS complained that the surgeons
at the dockyards were not on duty until ten o'clock in
Ithe morning. The result was that if an accident took
place before that hour the patient did not receive pro-
per attention. He understood that the artificers in
the dockyard contrilarted a certain suci to the Falary of
these surgeons. He wished to know how much was
thus raised? He thought arrangements should be made
that an efficient Surgeon should always be in attendance
while the men were at work.
Mr. MONSELL said that the new appointments had
been inado i❑ the medical departments lately, and the
arrangements were now of a more satisfactory character
than they had been previously.
On the vote of 450,0001. for wages of artificers,
Mr. NEWDEGATE asked what was the total Funs
which it was proposed they should now vote tlr the
establishment at Enfield, in addition to the 70,0001. al-
ready voted in 1854 and in 1855 ?
Col. DUNN asked if the number of men employed at
Enfield was to be reduced one-half as well as theexpense.
It, was notorious that, notwithstanding the expense of
this establishment, not a single musket lied yet been
made there. Nor was that all, for not a musket could
be made there for another year.
Mr. MILES wished to know distinctly ;what was
going on at Enfield ?
Arr. MUNTZ said it appeared to be supposed that
the Enfield ride was made at Enfield, but the fact was
that this was merely a particular pattern, and all the

THE SUN, LO DO SATURDAY

Enfield rifles used in the Crimea had been made at Bir-
mingham.
Mr. MONSELL admitted that nothing could have
been better than the conduct of the Birmingham arm
manufacturers during the pa,t year. Tiny had supplied
100,000 stand of arms, and would be able to supply
even more in future. He believed, however, that rifles
could be ma le cheaper in the factory at Enfield ; while
it would at the same time enable the Government to
exercise a control over private manufacturers at critical
times. He must say that he expected they would have
been able to commence work before now. Some unavoid-
able delay had arisen in getting the requisite machinery.
But it had now nearly all arrived, and he hoped they
would be able to begin in July or August nest. He
did not think that eighteen months was a very long
period to be occupied in the erection of a large
factory of this kind. As to the amount of the estimates
for the present year, there would be 15,3731. for machin-
ery, and 19,0921. for works and buildings. In that was
included quarters for two officers, and other expenses.
Col. BOLDERO said that the result of the experi-
ment at Enfield had proved the correctness of the course
adopted by the select committee which sat upon this sub-
ject in refusing the Government power to build at Wool-
wich.

In answer to a question,
Mr. MONSELL said the Government had received
between 10,000 and 12,000 muskets from Liege, and had
found them of very excellent quality.
Mr. NEWDEGATE said that 70,0001. had been al-
ready voted for Enfield. Now, what he asked was this, that
G )vernmett should state to the house what they had done
with that annu it. tow much they now wanted, and how
they i iterde Ito dispo-e of it. He hat no objection to
a Uovernment facto, y to (heck trade, but he feared that
if the trades we r: DOG encouraged during peace, when•
ever a war broke out there would be a deficient supply.
He believed that in such a case there would be found
the same deficiency as there unfortunately was when the
late war (he hoped he might call it) broke out. He
trusted, therefore, that the Government would tell the
house how the money bad been expended, and that the
house would from time to time require to be informed
what was being done at the Government factory,
Mr. WILLIAMS objected to the vote. There were
75 establishment; scattered all over England and the co-
lonies, and no information as to what was performed in
them. A vast number of persons were employed, but it
was impossible to collect what their duties were.
Mr. PELLATT said tbat.last year the house was told
that London and Birmingham were fully equal to the work
of the supply of arms, provided the orders were given
them a': proper times, so that their works should not be
disorganised. He thought this vote should be expunged
from the estimates. He had no doubt that if the money
granted bad been laid out in- stores from London
and- Birmingham, there would have been an adequate
supply at the tame they were wanted. As it was, he
fancied the Government factory would get to work when
the war was over. Like Kneller Hal!, which was pro-
vided for the instruction of taachers, it was an utt:r
failure.

Mr. •MUNTZ thought there ought to be a distinct and
detailed aec.,unt, as a guide to votes in future.
Mr. MONSELL said the sums ear-marled, or which

would be expended, up to the end of the present finan-
cial year, were as follows ;—For buildings, 51,0001.; fni
machinery, 49,0001.; for additional ma&iinery, 15,0001.;
and for additional buildings. 19,0001. He believed they
would be able to produce 50,000 muskets a-year, at a
very much less expense than they could be provided by
the trade. He believed the factory would be eminently
successful, and many practical persons who had seen
similar works abroad confirmed this opinion. He 1:e-
-lieved the faetnry would be in full work early next year.
, Col. DUNJE,tiad doubtj,heifActory would suc-
ceed, butt-WoUld be wi1,311- the waft wt oyer,,and when
no morelninketS tvt-ia Wanted. .(Laughter.)- •
.-• •
Mr. M. CHAMBERS believed that nothing could be
more useful than to have a Go*crime:it establishment to
check the outrageous demands of the trades when Go-
vernment required a large quantity of stores, but to
bring about this result the establishment must be well
superintended. He wished to direct the atteatfon of the
Government to the fact,- that income-tax had brew de-
manded from the artisans in the dockyards who received
casual wages, a course which be contended was not jas,
tifiable under the Income-tax Act of 1853.

Mr.D.O rCHIN S requested toknow upon what ground
the Clerk to the Ordnance came to the conclusion that
cheaper muskets could ba male at Eafield than elsewhere.

Mr. MONSELL said the prise paid to the Birmmg•
ham manufacturer Wag 3/. 43. He believed that in the
Government factory they could b 3 made for 2/. each.
He came to that conclusion from the stat3ments made to
him by gentlemen of great professional Tne East
India Company had determined to arm the whole of
their troops next year, and the demand for muskets

would beyond doubt be enormous.
Mr. SPOONER asked whether the estimate included
the interest of the money laid oat, and the wear and tear
of machinery ?
Mr. MONSELL said it did.

Mr. NE WDEGATE wished to correct a misapprehen-
sion in reference to the Birmingham manufacturers.
They received 31. 4e. for each musket, while the Ameri-
cans received 31. 10e. for each musket.
Mr. WILSON said that Parliament had extended the
income tax to all persons who received 1001. a year and
upwards, and it would be unjust if the Government ex-
en3pted their own servants from the tax while other per-
sons were liable to it. In the case of the artisans referred
to, it was impossible t) say whether the receipts would
be above or below 1001. a year, and the only way there-
fore of assessing them was to take an average of three
years—a course which was taken in reference to persons
in all other employment...

Mr. M. ChliM-BERS expressed a hope that the mat-
tar sr.uld be r.ferred to the Government law advisers ;
for if it could be shown, as it undoubtedly would, tnat

persons in private eatablishtnents• bad been assessed

noon a year's income, instead of on an average of three
years, it was clearly a violation of the last Income-tax
Act. At Devouport the artisans appealed to the local
commissioners, who held that they were exempt, while
at Oiathain and elsewhere they were held to be liable.
Mr. WILSON said that Government were convinced
that there was no difficulty in the act, but if there were,
it should be referred to the law officers of the Crown.
After some remarks front Mr. HENLEY and Mr.
M'Gaxnou, the vote was agreed to.
On the vote of four millions on account of clothing,
barrack service, forage, fuel, lighting, &c.

Mr. HENLEY wished to ascertain who was the
officer who was responsible for the cloth which he under-
stood was at Weedon. The next point on which he
sought informetion was as to the officer who inspected
the clothing, when it was delivered to Messrs. Heyter
and Howell, the Government factors. He presumed
that the inspectors considered it to be their duty to as-
certain whether it was the same cloth that was given out
to be made up. He should also be glad if the clerk of
the Ordnance would explain to the house what was the
principle of the charge en which the packing was carried
on. He collected from the advertisements in the news-
papers that the goods were to be delivered in Birchiii-
lane, which was an inland situation, having no access to
the river, from which of course they would have to be
be carried. (Laughter.)
Mr. MONSELL said that by the new system, which
would be at work on the Ist of April, all cloth required
for the army clothims would be sent to Weedon, which
would after that time be the head of the department. It
would be carried on under the direction of skilled in.pec-
tors, who would be under Mr. Elliott. The different
branches of the service would make up their own cloth-
ing, and it was estimated that a saving of MHO/. a-year
would be effected by the new system, and it was proposed
to appropriate that saving to improving the quality of the
cloth used for the soldier's clothing.
Mr. HENLEY said the scheme which the right hon.
gentleman had sketched was a satisfactory one. He
wished to know if the Government inspectors would in-
spect those goods that were to be sent to Messrs. Hayter
and Howell, in Mark-lane, who were, it seemed, the
Government factors. He asked this question, se that
they might know, if bad articles were supplied, who
were the parties responsible:
Col. GILPIN said that very inferior clothing had
been supplied to the militia. Nothing could be much
worse than the boots which were sent from the Ordnance
at the Tower. These boots were made of bad leather,
and the soles were not solid. They wore made of lea-
ther shavings. He had seen hoots in London at a shil-
ing more in price that would last six times as long as
those now supplied. He had heard that the German
Cavalry Legion had been supplied with clothing which
could not be used, and that the men were in consequence
to receive 21. each to purchase fresh clothing. That was
a most expensive arrangement to the public.
Sir J. PAXTON did not think the Government would
save much by becomieg waken of clothing themselves.
He found that the cavalry cost about 9L per man, and
the infantry 51. per man. He did not see how they were
to get two snits a year cheaper than -that.
Col. DUNNE sail that as long as he had known the
army the regiments hael made up their own clothing, but
not in the manner proposed by the right hon. gentleman.
He did not think the proposed system would effect any
saving. The hest inspection was the inspection of. the
officers of the different regiment.. Ho would be glad to
know whether the clothing supplied to the Land Trans-
port Corps bed been conerneed, and by whore it had
been supplied. He would be glad to have an answer
with respect to the German .Legion, whether the ultra
were to have comoen7ation for their bail clothing;
Lord EBRINGTON was glad to find that steps were
at length being taken to improve the clethir,g of the Bri-
tish army, which had hitherto been a disgrace to the
country? He trusted the Government would leak lee to
econo.;:y than to iinproviug the quality of the clothing.
It was a matter in sshieh the efficiency of"thl V?rvic,,
was concerned. How many marches had b-en airssted
by the want of a proper supply of shoos ? What was the
viiue of a shilling or two on a p dr of times, compared
with the comfert and efficiency of the soldier? Ho
trusted that tl,e) Government would turn their attention
specially to the quality of the article supplied.
Cel. NORTH said, Meeere. Isaac and Campbell had
supplied the regiment which he coinruandc,l, and it was
but right to say that the articles s> supplied gave per-
fect sr.tisfaction.
C,I..BOLDERO congratulated the Gcvernment on
the stees they bad taken, and he honed they would go
further, and remove the stores nt Woolwich to Wee-
don, and make that the great military storehouse of the
country.

Lord W. GRAHAM inquired if any arrangements
were in progrfos for any repayment from the SArdinlan
Government for the supply of provisinns and forage fur.
nished to the Sardinian army by this country ?
Mr. MONSELL said that no arrangements were yet
in pregreal.
Mr. MILES said they had taken credit for a larger
number of ani,nale than were in use.
Mr. MONSELL said the estimate included provision,
for c natinfiencios.
Mr. PERCY was glad to find that the clothing of
the army violin be improved, for hitherto it had been

V E

mere slop•wor'k. The great coats usually dropped to
pieces in two days.
The vote was then agreed to.
A sum of 2,500,000/. was then proposed for the stores
for land and sea services.

Colonel BOLDER() said that on reading this vote
he did not observe anything about huts ; but in another
vote ho found 250,0001. for huts. This he complained
of, because the items were improperly separated. Why
was not that 250,0001. for huts put under the same vote
as last year ?
Colonel KNOX complained that the huts were not
sent out in sufficient number to hut one•half of the army.
Many of the huts were not sent until December and Ja-
nuary, and that, too, the greater proportion of them. The
thing was notorious, and he intended to move for a re-
turn of the number sent, when sent, when they arrived
at Balaklava, and who was the contractor. The huts,
too, were of such shad material that the planking would
not hold the nails, and the waste that had occurred was
enormous. If we bad not taken Sebastopol when we
did, the army would have been in a worse condition than
they were the year before. Why, the army was not
hutted at this moment. How were the serjeants butted ?
why, they had butted themselves out of the debris of
Sebastopol. At the end of November two-thirds of the
army were under canvas, and he defied the right hon.
gentleman to deny this. Nothing but the great exertions
of the officers could have saved the army. He would
All attention to the accommodation for housing troops
in the metropolis. He believed that that accommoda-
tion was so small that they would have to come for a
vote ere long. The Por.trnan-street Barracks were a dis-
grace to the country. The Duke of 'Welline,ten had laid
it down that there should always be a barracks at hand
for the use of the metropolis. If the troops were taken
to Battersea-park they mould not have a drilling-ground.
There were sites to he got north of London, near Bays-
water, and sites might be got for infantry purposes on
the south-western side. He trusted the Government
would pay more attention to barracks.
Mr. MINTZ called attention to the vote for gun
foundries, and demanded an explanation. _ _

• Colonel DUNNE could net understand the votes.
What was the meaning of the large sums for small arms ?
There were sums for iron ordnance. Was this ordnance
to be procured on the old plan, by contract, or on the
new plan, from a Government foundry.? If the latter,
it was his intention to make a motion on the subject.
What was the meaning of the enormous sum fir miscel-
laneous stores ? Surely some details were required. No
former votes had ever been so confused and wanting in
detail. Were the rights on the river Lea abandoned ?
He saw RUMS received by Government put down as fdr
abandonment of rights on the Lea. What did this mean?
and what was the meaning of the large sums spent at
Waltham.abhey 1
Sir J. PAXTON said that the Government used a
wise discretion in building the huts which had been com-
plained of. It would-have been impossible to build bar-
racks in the time. He rose to ask what the hon. mem-
ber for Northamptonshire meant by his obeervaticn that
the Crimean huts were rather for the benefit of the Army
Works Corps than 'of the soldiers.
Mr. A. STAFFORD said that it wasibecanee the sol-
diers seemed more attached to their old huts than to the
new ones. I]

Sir J. PA-. XTON said that it was a pity that the hon.
gentleman, who. had done so much good last year, should
now Pet the soldiers aga'nst those who were'sent out to
assist them.
Mr. STAFFORD said that he had seen the soldiers
without huts, when tho Army Works Corps had huts su-
perior to those of a brigadier-general. He had not writ-
ten to the newspapers, but he had raised the question by
telegraphing to the Horse Guards, giving tho general
impression that ..to much care- was expended
,on the
villaot the chief-AA.; the:Army Works Co'rpY;'"

Sir J. PAXTON said that ifalit hon. lumber had
written to Mr. Doyne, he would have told him that these
buildings wera used for officers for the business of the
corps, while the officers lived in huts.
Col. BOLDER() observed the confusion in the items
for waggons and harness, of which be asked an explana-
tion.

Mr. MONSELL said, in reference to what had Wen
from the gallant member opposite, that the form or the
estimates was precisely the samo this year as it had been
in the last—there was no difference whatever. The votes

were dlferently arranged, and he thought that the ar-
rangement might be very much amended, and he should
be very glad to attend to auy suggestions that might be
offered. 'As for the particular vote—be must say, in re-
ference to the objection of his hon, friend, that he could
assure the house that the huts sent to the Crimea were
for 60,000 men—that they were asked for in September
and sent in October, in an interval of 14 days— and that
the exertion used did credit to tilos° on whom the duty
devolved. There bad been two sort of huts sent out—
ono of them the Gloster hut, and the other description
of hut erected under the immediate direction of Sir J.

Burgoyne. The Government bad at the time a demand
for 200 mortars and 200,0095h0115, and it was the duty of
the Government to supply this order first. which was of
vital importance to the iege of Sebastopol. It should be re-
collected tbatthe weight of the h nts was above 100, 000tnns,
and it was extremely difficult to find immediate mode of
transport for so large a weight. With regard to the huts
at home the necessity was urgent, and there was ne
other way of supplying it. There had been already a
great outcry throughout the country, and what would
have been said if they had waited till they could have
built huts with bricks and stone ? The real evil lay in
the way in which for many years they had been getting
rid of the accommodation for the troops. (Hear, hear.)
NVith regard to barracks in London, the necessity of re-
inovirq the Guards from P.irtinan•street was strongly
felt by Lard Hardinge, who was most anxious to get a
proper site. They had been carefully looking for a site ;
but had nob as yet been successful. As for the sugges-
tion of the hon. members with regard to the Knights-
bridge Barracks, he should refer them to the proper au-
thorities. In answer to the question of the hon. member
for Portariington, as to the works at Waltham Abbey,
the sums charged on that account were for extending the
Government powder mills, and a large part of the money
had been expended in remunerating the River Lea Com-
pany for the water they bad taken from the river. The
money had not been paid till the matter had been refer-
red to arbitration. With regard to the question of the
hon. member opposite (Col. Boldere), he begged to say
that the whole sum charged was for carts and waggons.
He had, he believed, gone through all the questions
asked. [Mr. Mentz—The machines ?] The sum of
30,0001. charged for machines was explained in the vote
for the royal gun foundry.
Captain VERNON said he saw a sum down in the
estimates of 572,0001. for the supply of iron ordnance
shot and shell. Re had last May moved for a return of
the number of Lancaster guns issued for service, the
number which had become unserviceable, and the cause
thereof; he had witladiawn his motion at the request of
the Clerk of the Ordnance. Having understood that
the results of the employment of that description of oei-
nance were of a most unsatisfactory character, he wished
t i know the iesults of the experiments carried on with
these guns— whether those experiments were carried on
under the direction of the committee at Woolwich—a
body which had not given much satisfaction to the pub-
lic—and whether it was intended to retain the Lancas-
ter gun in the service ?
Mr. MONSELL could assure the hon. and gallant
member that be had been entirely misinformed with re-
gard to the committee at Woolwich not working well.
It had been greatly improved, men of the highest scien-
tific character had been placed upon it, and since that
period it had given the greatest satisfaction to the pub-
lic. .Mr. Lancaster had wished the experiments to be
kept secret ; they had therefore been placed under a
separate committee. The result of those experiments
were of a singular character one day the gun was emi-
nently successful, the next day they had accounts of its
having totally failed. As the Government, therefore,
could not tell whether it would ultimately answer, they
could not adopt it as any large portion of the regular
armament, it would only be used for special service.
Col. LINDSAY saw a sum of money down for the
purchase of ground for new barracks at Chelsea, but no-
thing for the barracks themselves. He trusted, as the
question of London barracks accommodation was so im-
portant, the Government would never allow the site of
the present National Gallery to go out of their bands for
;Ley other purpose, suet', for instance, as for the erection
of a large hotel, of which he bad heard something very
lately.
Mr. MUNTZ saw 9,00e1. down for machinery for
the gun factory. They had no gun factory, and there
was a motion to oppose its erection. If the vote were
passed they would have the machinery and no factory.
Mr. MONSELL—The vote is inerely a vote on account.
Mr. WILLIAMS—As there were such largo sums
for machinery, there must be a great consumption of
coals. He, therefore, called the attention of the Go-
vernment to the fact that an efficient system of smoke
consumption had' been discovered, which, if adopted,
• would be a source of great economy.
Colonel DUNNE thought the vote for machinery
should be postponed also, became if the factory were done
away with, the machinery would be useless. He wished
to raise the question whether it would I.le worth while for
the Government to manufacture their own ordnance ;
he would also remind the Clerk of the Ordnance
that he had not answered hit inquiry with respect to the
large item. of one million and a quarter for miscellaneous
stores.

Cob--m.l SOMERSET complained of the character of
the huts supplied from the contractors ; they had been
spit by tke sun even before delivery. Any one could
see through the silos of almost every hut. He was
mpeaking then of the first huts supplied. There was a
descripcian of hut supplied afterwards of a much supe-
rior kind. E3e wishe I to a:,,k what what was the con-
tras;, price of the Port' north huts ?

Mr. ?.,lON SELL—The Portsmouth huts were much
tilt! cheapest. Ile coed net answer, however, as to the
precise amount.

Th vote was then agreed to.
• On the motion that a vote of 1,70t7501. be granted
for defraying the ch.rges of buildings and repairs at
home and abroad.

Coicnel DUNNE thought that the house hal a right
to demA,nd that a committee should be appointed to in-
quire into the mode by which cannon were manufactured
on the Continent. He denied that English iron ord•
mance were inferior to tho,o of foreign States ; the
siege of Sebastopol they had undergone trials which no
foreign ordnance could stand. Only 11 guns hal burst
before Sebastopol. If it were thought necessary to have
a better description of gun, let them pay contractors a
higher price than 131. or 201. a ton. They he] the
authority of the hon. member for Birmingham (slr.
Alurtz) for the fact that every artiste ma,utacturecl by
the Government cost the country 50 per cent. more than
if it had been obtained by contract ; that he thought a
sufficient reason for opposing the esta!ilislnent of an
ordnance factory. There had bean much talk lately of
charcoal iron as a material for ordnance, he did not think
it could be obtained. It would never be of from
Nova Scotia. As he had before suggested, it was use-
less wasting money in estabtielling a Government fac.