The Sun.
London, England, 1856-02-16 00:00:00

. .
scnnot, therefore, follow the honourable and learned gen- that the only wonder was that the expenditure had not in-
tlesnan through the details he has read—all I can state creased even ten times more. He could allude to one case in
is that it was the desire of her Majesty's Government that illustration. In 1820 the cost of collection was Si. 19s. per
nothing should be done in any way at variance with the cent., and 2,115,000 tons of shipping were cleared; last
laws of the United States. The honourable gentleman has year the cost of collecting was only 5/. 145., and the ship-
stated that giving information to persons who should be ping cleared out amounted to 9,151,000 tons. Complaints
willing togo to our provinces that they would be enlisted if they i had been made of the expense of foreign agents in connection
thought fit was an inducement held out in violation of the with the Post-office, and that there was no necessity for the
American law. But, sir, the United States is a free country , agent at New York, for instance;
letters went through the
nee; but the hon. gentleman
like our own. The American citizens are not under the Rus- ' must remember that our i c
elan system, and no power in the United States can impose agent at New York, and
that it was also necessary to have
any restraint upon any man within its boundaries if he thinks some one to receive our despatches. The accounts of the
he can quit with advantage to himself. When the papers are Crown lands, includingincome and expenditure, had been
many years, ad gone
gay, before the house. for He h not
before the house the question can be discussed, but this I will p
my, that during these transactions repeated offers were made fully into thuepqounestthseons,uhajseetth,ealthhoonu.ghmheme bwearsbpaedrrencotttympaidoe.
to her Majesty's officers in the United States, the only object , any motion
of which was, without question, to entrap them into a viola- pared
quite agreed with the hon. mem-
the details of this trial are known, the same importance may HBY
Hon of the municipal law of that country, and I trust when Spared
H. dwolso.LL 0 , G
beriiror Lambeth, that it was perfectly impossible to do just
t
not be attached to them as the hon. gentleman seems to give flee to the votes, on account of the short time they had to
them now. The hon. gentleman has suggested further, that consider them. He remembered that in 1854 the whole
e
the apology made by this Government was insincere. That
were voted in eight minutes. He did not alto-
assertion I utterly deny. (Cheers.) We
gave instructions , gether. approve of the system of separating the cost of eel-
that the Proceedings which gave umbrage to the United letting from the general estimates, because it cast the respon-
States should be discontinued. We have since been informed sibs sty upon the house ; and, in fact, the result was that
that they were nevertheless continued, and • that is what re- there was no responsibility at all. He knew that there were
mains now to be ascertained. If they were, it was clearly complaints that some of the Government employes were uu-
contrary to the intentions and knowledge of this Government. derpaid, while, undoubtedly, with others the reverse was the
But I must Impress upon the house that the statement of case. He was confident, however, that no good would be
regret (sot that we had violated the law, for that we do not done unless the estimates were brought under the considers-
believe), and that we had revoked the offensive instructions, tion of a smaller body than the+ whele house, and he would
was received by.the American Minister here with an expres- ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Government
elan of opinion that it would be satisfactory to his Govern- had taken the subject into consideration ?
Precut. In proof of that, when, shortly after, he received a so- The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that if
cond despatch, requiring him to make still further lemon- these estimates had never undergone any investigation—if they
strances, he put that despatch in his pocket, and said no- had never been submitted to a commission—it would have been
thing, because he believed the apology he had received from very proper not only for an individual member, but for the
us would be satisfactory. Sir, I am bound to make these Government also, to have considered the expediency of a
statements prematurely owing to the extraordinary conduct searching examination. It was certainly the interest of the
of the hon. member. The question now stands in the un- Government to collect the revenue in the cheapest and most
guarded position I have described, and it is very difficult economical manner, and with that. view the numerous corn-
ier persons placed in my Position to deal with an hen. missions had been appointed. With respect to the Post-
member who pursues the course which the hon. member has office, the great pressure en the House of Commons had
done this evening. He knows that this question Is still pond- always been not to diminish the expenditure of that depart-
ing between the two Governments, and that communications ment, but to increase it. The complaints constantly made to
the Government were, that the Post-office did not give have been received from America, calling upon her Majesty's
suffi-
Government to de certain things which none but the most ciont accommodation to the public—that the delivery of letters
valid reasons can induce them to do. Even the grounds upon was not sufficiently frequent or rapid, and that railways were
which those demands are made await the reports from officers not more extensively need, instead of the ordinary vehicles,
in America. The hon. member knows that a very short time for the conveyance of the mails. These complaints and sue--
must elapse before those reports are received and a final 2.11 - gestions all implied increased expenditure, and diminished
wer ens way or other given. He knows that this is a question Post-office revenue. Having made this statement, he Gould
deeply interesting to the feelings
.and interests of two great only express his confident opinion that there was no part of
nations. He must know that to trifle with such feelings and the public expenditure which could bear without discredit a
interests is most dangerous and unbecoming a man aceus- more searching or hostile examination than the charge for
tomed to assemblies like these. (Cheers.) Yet the hon. collecting the revenue. If the house really thought that a
gentleman gets up, rushing with hot impatience to interpose select committee could introduce improvements in this de-
between the two Governments, and possibly to prevent that partmeut, ho would offer no objection ; but in the absence of
explanation which might otherwise take place. (Hear, hear.) any proof that such a measure of success was likely to attend
These explanations are far more likely to be made satisfac- the labours of the committee, he did not see that any benefit
torily by the two Governments themselves left to their own would result from its appointment.
action than if they are subjected to the swaying influence of SUPPLY.
Popular clamour and national feeling. They are differences The house went into a committee of supply.
that can only be settled by calm and dispassionate discus- •On the motion that a vote be taken for 840,000/. for the
sloe, The how gentleman, however, rushes forward to de- Customs department to the 31st of March, 1'57,
liver himself of opinions not founded upon any knowledge of Mr. WILLIAMS observed that there was a medical inspec-
the facts, when if he had waited for a fortnight or three weeks tor to the Customs, which he thought unnecessary.
longer, lie would have had the whole of thorn before him. Mr. WILSON replied that the corps consisted of a large
Instead of this, he gets up in his place holding a brief for the number of persons, and it was absolutely necessary that suer
antagonists of his own Government— (hear)—and makes him- an officer should be appointed for the purpose, amongst other
self the mouthpiece of calumnies that have been uttered in the things, of examine persons who were candidates for admis-
United States by interested parties against her Majesty's sion into the service.
officers ttrthat country. Not content with that, he calls on the Mr. JN. MACGREGOR believed that they ought to have a
house, forsooth, to express an opinion upon that of which they different organisation in the collection of the customs and
are ignorant, and upon premisestbat they havenever had sub- other revenue. It many places the collection was carried on
witted to them. Every man in this house isentitlecl, as a mem- at starvation salaries. He believed that the revenue was col-
ber of a freeetssenahly, to his own opinion, and if any one be leeted at less than that of any other country. It was surpris-
imbued with the idea that his country is in the wrong, why, ing that there were so few frauds in connection with the re-
he must judge for himself, and if he think proper to condemn venue, considering the vast amount that was collected.
the Government, lam bound to consider that he thinks it his Dr. MICHELL complained of the inadequate remunera-
duty to himself and to those who sent him here so to do ; but tion given to the junior clerks in the customs. He thought
I must say that if there be anything which no opposition in some of the higher officers should be reduced for the pur-
this house, from whatever quarter it might come, no wise- pose of increasiug the junior. There were 34 clerks receiving
menet, of antagonism to the Government of the day, no motive 38,000/. a year amongst them, while there were 1,800 junior
of any kind, would induce me to do—it is to step in between clerks amongst whom 300,0001. was given. Such an unjust
'this house and the facts otan undecided question, and call discrepancy ought not to be allowed to exist. He also emu-
upon the members to pronounce a verdict that might lead to P
lained of the manner in which the duties Of these clerks were
dimension with a country with which we are on amiceble apportioned. Money was paid for extra time in the loog
terms. The hon. gentian:es concluded his address by stating room, but suoh money was most partially awarded, some get-
that he was expressing a feeling shared by the who's country, ting nothing, while the more favoured ones got a great deal.
of the horrors of a war with the United States. Sir, Ido not Those who were required to attend before 8 o'clock in the
allow the hon. and learned gen leman the monopoly of that morning got nothing for overtime, but those who remained
feeling in this house. That feeling is shared by the whole after 4 o'clock in the afternoon were those who were paid
country, and by myself also ; and I will venture to say that overtime. He trasted the whole system would be looked
so American can traverse these islands in their length and into and improved. He could bring forward circumstances
breadth—from John o'Groat's house to the Land's End, anti connected with the Customs which would astonish the house.
from one extremity of Ireland to the other, without hearing lie knew of a case of an officer in the Customs who was so
from every man whose opinion is worths having, the most aged and infirm that he was carried out of a cab into his office,
friendly sentiments towards the United States. (Cheers.) Bat and had to sit in a chair every morning for half an hour be-
lt is one thing to entertain friendly sentiments towards a kin- fore he could proceed with his duties.
tired people, and another thing to lose self-respect ; and in cir- In answer to a question from Mr. SPOONER,
cumetances like these, it is incumbent upon those who are Mr. WILSON sail the Government were compelled to pro-
charged with the public interests to consider, not whether vide warehouses sufficiently large to contain the largest quan-
we appeal to the most kindly sentiments towards the mother tity of tobacco at any one time, while they could only charge
country only, nor whether the interests of the two are the merchants rent for that which was actually in the ware-
equally bound up in the continuance of friendly relations— house. This would account for the large amount for the
equally, I say, because let it be clearly understood that the WA (Semites of 28,000/.
.responsibility of maintaining this feeling on either side Mr. W. WILLIAMS thought the officers might be paid
deveh-es open both of us, :me the consequences of not better by snaking the officials work longer time. If they
doing so would be equally felt on both sides of the Atlan- were paid by time it would be much better.
Mr. L. DAVIES' thought an expenditure of 28,000/, to get
tic. But what the Government have to de is to consider
the justice of the case, and what is right and most be- an income of 8,000/. was an astounding fact. Either there
fitting the dignity of the country with whose interests was a great waist of judgment in the expenditure or of vigi.
they are charged. That feeling also, lam persuaded, is reel- lance in collecting the income. •
proeal on both silos of the Atlantic. Notwithstanding all that After a short conversation the vote was agreed to.
we have heard and read, I feel jewsuaded that that senti- 486,0281. for the Coast Guard was then proposed.
moat of mutual friendship which prevails in this country is not In answer to Sir C. NAPIER.
a stranger to the breasts or env American cousins ; and I ten Mr. WILSON said the coast guard in Ireland now received
satisfied that, in spite of all these ehuilitions of feeling, such the same pay as those of England.
as we have had to-day (and which I must say have anything Sir C. NAPIER thought the coast guard men ought to be
but a conciliatory effect), I firmly believe there is that right young men, nod men acquainted with the sea, and such men
feeling in the United States, that her people attach that ap- as could be at once taken into the service if the necessity for
preciation to the friendship of tee people of this empire, that their services should arise.
they feel the interests of both to be bound up so strongly in Mr. WILON said that every effort was made to select a
the maintenance of friendly relations, that I cannot but per- proper class of men.
suade myself that when these matters aro laid before the Con- The vote was agreed to.
gross of the United States, as they will be before the Parlia- 1,459,2071., for salaries and expenses of the Inland Revenue
ment of Great Britain, they will receive that friendly eousi. Department, was the next vote.
deration which will lead to a settlement of all differences, and Mr. 11.A.NK EY wished to know if any steps had been taken
that the intemperance of individuals either on one side of the with regard to the poundage for the collection of the incense
Atlantic or the other, will net bo permitted to • plunge the tax. The poundage was the same under the higher income
two countries into the calamities of war. (Loud cheers.) tax as it was under the lower. From a return which he had
Mr. DISRAELI had hoped to avoid adlrestiug the house moved for latr, year, it appeared that one collector iu the City
until these papers had been laid on the table, because it was of London receVed 5,00 1. a-year, and this year it would be
most important in disputes with foreign Governments to ex- greater. He was also a collector of land tax, for which he re
press no opinion until the house was in possession of all the ceived a per tentage, and he hail private duties besides, and
facts. For that reason he should not support the motion of there was one gentleman, whose services were of the most
the hon. and learned gentleman (Mr. Roebuck,) but lie must valuable kind, and he received only' 450?. a-year.
protest against the priaciple laid down by the noble lord with The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the co:lec-
respect to the conduct of membe. sof that house, He consi- tion of the income tax was different to that of any other tax.
dared that if an hon. member believed the Government was The system was this : —The collector, from the peculiar na-
not doing its duty in its negotiations with other Governments, Lure of the tax, was appointed by the commissioners, who
it was the duty of that hon, member to.(ill the attention of were not officers of the Government, and. lie was paid by a
the house to the subject, and demand documents and explana- poundage. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) did not think
Pions. It certainly was not becoming a Minister of the Crown the system was a judicious one, for he thought the collector
to charge an hon. member who did so with holding a brief for ought to be the same as for the other taxes, and he had under
the enemy. He considered the noble lord had spoken with his consideration a plan to that effect. He thought it was a
considerable indiscretion the last time this subject was men- subject well worthy the consideration of Parliament.
tioned in the house, and which was not compensated by the Mr. W. WILLIAMS called attention to an item of 10,000/.
tone of his address on the present occasion. The noble lord for copies of wills for probate duty he presumed. This sum
talked of the danger of trifling with national feelings, but was was, as it appeared to hint, enormous, and he understood that
his speech to be taken for a model of discussion wherein he an officer of Doctors'-commons was making as much as 8,000/.
more than intimated that there had bean a conspiracy on the a-year by these copies. He (Mr. Williams) thought that Go-
part of the American Government to entrap. (" No, no.") He vernment clerks might be appointed to snake the copies.
would only say he collected that as the noble lord's meaning. Mr. WILSON said the Board of Inland Revenue would
Lord PALMERSTON explained that he said certain persons have no right to send their clerks to Doctors'-commons.
had endeavoured to entrap the agents of the British Govern- From inquiries which lie had made, he had reason to believe
west, not the American Government itself, that there was as many as 130,000 wills deposited in the
Mr. DISRAELI would accept the explanation, but the cir- year. A copy of these, therefore, would amount to about
cumstanee was thereby rendered so trifling that it would have .ss. each, .
been better not to have brought it before the house. He honed Mr. L. DAVIES thought a different scale of charges ought
the papers would be presented soon, and until then he would to be adopted, and then the charge of 10,000?. would be much
refrain front expreseieg any opinion. The fact of an apology
being made however was an admission that our representative lesS'ir C. NAPIER inquired if the large buildings at Somerset-
had acted illegally. house were intended for the Inland Revenue :
Lord PALMERSTON—No ; allegations were made to that Mr. WIL SON said the department was all under one
-.
effect, and that is what, the inquiry is waiting for. building now.
Mr. DISRAELI said-o-An apology, founded upon an equi- Sir C. NAPIER thought the Admiralty might be removed
there ~ ere also
rocakion, was the most ilangeroml a Government could use, • lime vote was agreed to.
but be trusted it would be found that we bad not been cons- 63,025/. was proposed for the salaries and expenses of
mated in any way when the papers were produced. Rejoined revenue police in Ireland, and agreed to.
fully in the hope of the hon, remember for Sheffield, that there A sum of 1,740,453/. was then proposed for the Post...office
would be an expression of opinion on the part of the people of ,arnica and the collection of the revenue.
people U
this country iu that house, which would assure thele of Colonel DNNE complained of the salaries that were paid
the United States that the question would be discussede with- to the subordinate Post-office officials in Ireland. Ho did not
out prejudice anti witheet anistmeity ; that we should not
willingly give ear to state see why tire Chief Secretary in Ireland should have his salary
authority (though the authority was said to be high in bath
circulated with or without ' increased to 1,000 a-year. He would be glad to know if the
countries), which could be made pretexts for misunderstand- c•ommittee on the postal communication in Ireland would be
hugs between the two nations. He hoped the hon.gentle- le-appointed.
man would not persist in his motion, as it might, if persisted Mr. WILSON said there wes no change of salary to the
In, lead to eonsidereble misinterpretation of the motives of secretary to the Post-office. The salary commenced at 700/.,'
the house. The hon. and learned gentleman had, no doubt, and was annually increased to 1,000/. It was impossible for
only done what he consyereel to be his duty as a member of a committee of that house to effect any change in the postal
Parliament, but, at the tame time, he (Mr. Disraeli) should communication, it must be done by the Post-office officials
feel it incumbent upon him to oppose the motion, not by that themselves ; still if it was thought desirable to have the com-
vote sanctioning the conduct of the Government, but because mittee reesppointed he should offer no objection on the part of
the Government. Ho would, however, suggest that it would
ttib papers were not yet before the house.
Mr. ROEBUCK—My object has been attained by the dis- be better to wait and see the result of the changes which
were under consideration
eumion that has ensued.
Mr. M. GIBSON* said he had heard thht a formal offer of 1 Mr. DUNCAN complained of the paucity of letter-carriers
si Dundee.
arbitration had been made with respect to the Central Ante- • Dr. MICHELL thought the letter-carriers were most in-
rican question, and be wished to know when that formal offer adequately paid. He was surprised there were not more
was made. defalcations than there were. It vas a disgniceful thing
Lord PALMERSTON---I cannot trust my memory with the
dates, but the whole of the papers will shortly be laid before to the Post-office to pay letteioeareiers only 19s. a-week.
The carriers, and the post-office people in borough towns
the house, and then the bow member will see all the details. were paid double what they Were iu other places, and the rea-
fifflePLlt.* ....
..
s es was, that the pressure of the borough members was in
Upon the motion that the Speaker leave the chair, on the those cases, brought to bear on the Government. Talk of the
house going into committee on the estimates,
Mr. WILLIAMS days of Walpole, the corruption was nothing then to what it
said he had given notice of an amend- is now. The Post-office system was a disgrace to the coun-
ment to refer try. In the hamlets and 'll throughout
eotephhasinthesethater:ntimates to a select committee. He vs .g•esthe country, the
consider tie esti hers had only one (lay and a-half to Postmaster had to provide a room and attend to his duties
them, anti he confesmseadtes. He had himself gone through in the delivery of the letters, for 3/. a-year.
inability to find out whether those Mr. L. DAVIES thought the subordinates were most
items were what they ought to be or not. The increase in wretchedly paid.
the.expense of colleeti : revenues of the three depart-
ments of the Custorasn.,Eei7 Capt. SCOBELL said it was astonishing the regularity
1855, was 333,000/. and the and
r4B"flice' in the year with which the postal service was conducted.
the world,
we had officers
202,0001. In the peettaLscreraifie for this year over last Mr. WILSON said that in many of the large towns an uni-
wascalled packet agents, all over
appointed at the
natl.mde,ieland of Jamaica, form had been given to the carriers, which was tantamount
public expense. He u that, fey; to an increase of salary. As to the small places in the country
there was an expense of 10,0 ;01. sinless they paid the officials small sums, they could not pay
the Post-effico. There were for thYatear• for carrying on them at all. Although the sum was small, there was great
postmaster, with a salary of 1,000/. a-year, a deputy competition for the offices, because they gave a kind of status
and officers under him„. with salaries "ides
elerae to the holders. They gave a respectability to the shop, and
In the West India Islands, also, the amountingexpense to
4,480/, brought an increased business. It must be recollected
Again, at Hong-Kong, there was a •postmeetZa! great. that the Pest-office revenue was very little more than the ex-
Again,
of 600/. a-year; and at Canton, one at 300,
/. 'l7..ith a penditutc, if they included the 800,000/. for the packet
He was very sorry the estimates for Crown lands did nnoTtnaar. Service.
The whele
receipts,
including the foreign letters,
pear with the other estimates. Why they were always •P- were 2,700,0001.; the expenditure was 1,700,000/., and the
with- packet se •
held he could not say ; but it was alleged that more corrup- fund, therefore,rvme was upwards of 800,0001. There was no great
aims was practised in the department of the Crown lands than try post,oince for largely increasing the payments to cowl-
s. 1
in any other branch of the public service, and yet they were Mr. WILLIAM
ea ranch public property' as any other department.. He hoped lure on the WestS called attention to the great expendi-
they should have the estimates of those Crown lands before the peet.emearl,3 Indies. First of all, the charge for
the house. He had known 111,0001hto be expended in that they had to do witr tiailea. He would be glad to know what
department which was unaccounted far ; and with regard to one
deputy
wnaster wiethirt-office at all there. There was
the three departments he had previously named—the Cu,- penses were, 4,4801. y ,000/• a-year, and the whole ex-
- 'ow, what did we e eet for that ?
tows Excise, and Post-office—more than half-a-million steel- Then at Hong Kong there was
lag had been added to the cent of their collection within 3 Mr. WILSON said that alth%postmaster with 6QO/ a year.
years. office in Jamaica were 4,480/, thegh the expenses of the lost-
Mr. WILSON mid there had been so many investi- revenue nearly double,
Mr. WILLIAMS said the eonvey • - was
anee of mails was 4 000/
lotions of late years, that the work which the hon. member o more, He thought it was much better t let ' '
wished to be done bad already been performed by these manage their own afleire, these places
commissions. In 1848 a commission was appointed to in- The vote was agreed to.
lairs into the Customs, and their labours were attended 80,000/. was then voted for the defieiency i
with great snecests. here also committee of this
was a
house , i medal service Mint for the
. n consequence, great chanees had been made. With The house g*
"II)" to the Post-offi there hadile lai 1 the table
ce,en ( upon he house then resumed, and the Chairman
of the house th greys. reported pro-
the results of a careful inquiry into that estab-
Defiant, and ' SUPERANNUATION IN THE CIVIL SE great improvements were being made. Under SERVICE.
theee eircumieee
—cell, Parliamentwouldscarcely be willing to ' Toe CHANCELLOR
! .. of the EXCHEQUER then rose, and
eeitient to another i •
nA. tiquiry. It was true that there was an in- i said that the subject of administrative
crease° 56°.vva in the •' - reform was deservin
_ _,,,,„,..1„....,._•,„ _ estsmates, but that was due to the ' a very considerable portion of the attention of that horse;
ttu A"st j'artere7heiTizolz Were performed, and especially to the I and her Majesty's Government fully entered into the import-
seam/cation throughout the United ance of that subject, and were desirous of contributing to the
Kingd,tets„ They were nog, e.
ifsevice thrstgbout Ireland, of their to t e
wthrfecl in increasing the poetal full extent rower, he reform of the administrative
for nut year ; but be was sue thhwolid add to the estimates depertrnene, by a just apportionment of the remuneration in
a '4 tDe
+ - horse could not corn I the several services. That renew.
_,__ heration consisted partly in a
plat, a tio, issemod expenttua, With regarl to the Cue- - eolary wh,je Vay In:a 4isiatre-ilOg thee duties, roe etl •
toms, the bliggeg 1104.V0n t; $0 " , a 14 Y =
-- - - 1:1P40T4 44 agmat, s ret,4ls 41royfaipa yito: to cc,..1004 to forfora his clutic4;
'