The Sun.
London, England, 1860-02-14 00:00:00

Tg SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY;', 14, 1860.

came friends with the English, and frequently conveyed re-
freshments to their ships. ( Hear, hear.) Several operations
were carried on, but owing to, the smallness of his force he
was obliged to restrain for me ny weary weeks and months
the ardour of his gallant office rs and men, who were anxious
to go into action. He did restrain that ardour, however,
and waited till the right moment came and proper instruc-
tions arrived. Then came the question whether they should
continue or go to the north. Be fore :that, the unfortunate
mutiny in India broke out, and it became his duty to con-
sider in what way he could send forward reinforcements to
that country in order to sustain her Majesty's authority
there:Ye accordingly sent the .STuumon and the Nonpareil
for that purpose, andto enable Sir H. Ward to forward all
the troops he could spare from Ce:plon. During the absence
of the English ambassador in Indi a the operations in China
remained almost quiescent. Dining that absence of the
ambassador he found it necessary to establish a blockade
at Canton, for this simple reason, that he found Commis-
sioner Yeh and the Chinese authorities were in treaty to
open the trade of that place with All other foreign nations,
to the exclusion of the English. He felt he could
not allow that, and he decla.ted he should hold
the blockade until her Majesty's Gov eminent should decide
upon the steps to be taken. In the early part of 1858 he
I was called upon to accompany the English ambassador to
the north, together with the imperial forma and ambassador.
The blockade of Canton was raised on the 10th of Feb-
ruary, and arrangements were then made for proceeding
northwards after the final capture of Canton. When that
period arrived he hoped that no hostilities would be neces-
sary. It was supposed that what had occurred at Canton
might have induced the Emperor of China to see the advi-
sability of yielding. Moreover, several representatives of
foreign powers were united with the English representa-
tives on the common ground of the treaties. The English
forces finally arrived off the Peiho river on the 24th April ;
on the 25th the French arrived. On the 30th they agreed
to postpone hostilities,. and a congress was held on the Ist
May. The final decision was made on the 19th of May,
and on the 20th, having on the previous evening embarked
landing parties, they proceeded to the entrance of the Peiho
River, after summoning by previous arrangement, and two
hours having been given, so that they might float off with
the ebb tide. The result of the operation against the forts
was, as was well known, successful, and the loss on our
side only 103, of whom 50 lost their lives by the unfortu-
nate explosion of a Chinese magazine. After the capture
of the forts there was not the slightest molestation offered,
and Tien-tsin reached on the 30th. On the 23d, whilst on
the way up, 800 or 1,000 Chinamen were seen in the dis-
tance, and there could be no doubt but that if delay had
been allowed they would have availed themselves of it to
enlarge their forces and strengthen their batteries. He
would here gladly sit down, but the house would act, he
hoped, think him out of order if he made some reference to
a question of the performance of his duty as regarded the
noble lord, her Majesty's ambassador in China. He begged
to assure the house that from the moment of his having the
honour of entering with the noble lord on the performance
of a duty connected with China, he had never deviated
from what he considered that duty to be—to forward his
wishes, to uphold the public interests, and to obey the orders
of the Queen and Government. (Hear, hoar.) He would
not have made this reference, an hoped the house would
not say he was out of order (for he had refrained from no-
ticing, on various occasions, remarks in certain public jour,
nals), if his conduct as a naval officer was not in some mea-
sure assailed. He believed he took the right course as a
naval officer and commander-in-chief in a distant part of
the world—that course being strictly to adhere to his duty
—strictly to adhere to the instructions of the Admiralty
which he served. He had exercised forbearance in not ask-
ing for official documents relating to certain operations in
which he took part, only because he did not think anofficer
should be too sensitive, even if the public thought fit to deal
with his character. Were he to justify himself, hie course,
as it seemed to him, was this, to ask the Admiralty whether,
in consequence of his character having been assailed, they
would permit him to use certain documents in order to make
his conduct plain before the world. If they objected to that
course he must bow to their decision. In his case he had
received the fullest approbation of the Government and the
Admiralty, and therefore had not thought it necessary; but
when he told the house that an hen. gentleman—an able
and very agreeable writer, who held a position of confidence
—who held an official position-by the side of the noble lord,
the ambassador in China—when he gave to the world his
work, in which he reflected upon his character—when that
writer said that he (Sir M. Seymour) was slow, and wanted
energy, and thwarted the policy of the noble lord, he thought
he might fairly ask why did not this gentleman not give the
whole story to the world? He could have done it, but he
did not; but he wished to poison the public mind against
one who endeas, oured to do his duty. The house must un-
derstand that the instructions were very clear. Lord Elgin
was told by these instructions that it would be for him to
determine, and for him alone, how long the negotiations
should be continued, when, if unsuccessful, to be broken
off; and when he judged that further negotiations were use-
' less, and the employment of force necessary to compel the
Chinese to comply with his demands, his duty then would
be to announce to Sir M. Seymour the facts, so that he (Sir
M. Seymour) might apply to the Admiralty as to the use
of the forces under his command. He never was called upon
to act until the time he was called upon to attack the force.
Had he been called upon to act he would have respectcully
told her Majesty's ambassador that he thought it would be
better to delay, as in his opinion it was important, in acting
against- the Chinese it is always important, to act with
effect. He had experienced the advantageous moral effect of
such a course in dealing with this people. He knew the dif-
ficulty of getting the Chinese to show a front of resistance.
He was, in point of fact, about to retire, when, by a device,
he had induced the Chinese to offer resistance. He had
been a long time intheriver,'and the Chinese really believed
they were afraid to attack them. The truth was they had
no boats fit for the purpose, but when the attack was made
the Chinese never troubled them again. (Hear.) In the case
of affairs in the north he had given notice for the produc-
tion of papers,and he believed Government had no objection
to their production. The hon. gentleman who had made the
attack upon him seemed to forget that he (Sir M. Seymour)
had not acted alone—he acted with Admiral R. Genouilly.
a man of honour, open, candid, and of the highest profes-
sional attainments, so much so that it was impossible for
him to express the satisfactionhealways felt in carrying out
joint operations with that gallant officer. Therefore, when
they singled him out he did not understand it. (Hear.)
Those gentlemen were very fast men for fighting. Fight
whom ? Blame him for not fighting. Whom ? Chinamen ?
He did not mean to say that Chinamen could not be got to
resist. They did so get together at the Peiho forts, and
became almost impudent, and the result was therefore use-
ful, as they were prepared to meet them. If they had gone
in a hurry up the river, no doubt the forts would have been
taken ; but what then ? they should have commenced at the
opening of the river, and been slaughtering Chinamen all
the way to Tien-tsin. As soon as they advanced to attack,
the Chinese ran away like sheep. His vessel was a long
steamer, and she could not make her turnings, and
sometimes was obliged to put her stem into the
opposite mud, and back her short, and then go on again.
Well, they had not sufficient men to wear her off. But who
helped her off? Why, hundreds of these Chinamen—
(laughter)—and they were swimming about his vessel with
vegetables, and fruit, and live birds, and there was:nothing
they could not get from them. (Hear.) Yet, some of those
gentlemen who fought with the floirish of their pens in
agreeable books talked this nonsense about China. (Hear,
and laughter.) He had the greatest deference for public
opinion ; but there were times, as he said before, when
officers must bear unjust odium. If this country had any
interest in China, it was a commercial interest. (Hear.) If
they attempted to enter it with any other motive they would
act unjustly and unfairly towards the Chinese. This coun-
try was powerful in war, and China was very weak. It was
impossible they could carry their arms into China without
very serious consequences to that empire. (Hear.) He be-
lieved China had never recovered the effects of the first war,
and he further believed—whatever might be the conse-
quences of the expedition now on its way—that, if it were
carried beyond the necessities of the case, there would be
reason to deplore the result. There was no hesitation on
his part in saying that with that large allied force which
was now proceeding to China, if it were needful to use hos -
tile measures, success was inevitable. No Chinese and no
Tartar force could resist the operations of two great power-
ful nations; but it would be a happy circumstance if the
Emperor of China would yield to advice, and stay anything
like hostility. He feared th it would not be so. (Hear.)
He had read with regret in one of the leading journals that
the last accounts from the north of China spoke of large
Tartar forces. The Chinese did not like to be advised—
their best friends were not able to persuade them. He
thought success was quite certain in the event of their
not yielding—those forts would be retaken, and then the
gallant men whom we sent out would defeat any advance
which the Chinese could make. He hoped the Court of
Pekin would see the necessity of yielding, but in any case
he should deprecate the consequences of success if they
were not in conformity with justice and moderation.
(Hear, bear.) It was not a country to make war with. There
was nothing to oppose them. (A. laugh.) They could not
carry the war into China with any real satisfaction to them-
selves. (Hear, hear.) The desolation and ruin of the em-
pire would be the certain consequence. The consequences
of proceeding by force to Pekin would be to make Pekin
very like what Canton then was. All the high officials
might leave Pekin, and diplomatists would find themselves
without any one to negotiate with. Defeat would induce
them to lay down their arms. But what could a force do
without opposition ? He supposed come away again. Still
he did not see how it was possible for them to atop short of
insisting upon the fulfilment of the treaty. Having obtained
success, he repeated his conviction that forbearance ought
to be shown to a people so utterly undefinable. The fabric
of Chinese power was of so flimsy a character—it was so
made up of forces and ceremonies, that the rude shock of
war would break up the whole empire to its basis. If that
was to be the result, what would be the considerations and
reflections of those who had brought about such a state of
things ? (Hear.) The gallant officer concluded by thank-
ing the hence for the attention with which they had listened
to him. (Cheers.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said—l suppose there is no one in
this house who can question the professional opinion of the
gallant admiral who has just sat down, or who will be dis-
posed to doubt his zeal and devotion in the service of the
Crown and the country. (Hear.) The gallant admiral has
received the approbation of the Board of Admiralty, his im-
mediate superiors, and therefore I think it is quite unneces-
sary—indeed impossible—for me to go into the questions he
has adverted to with regard to his conduct and the differ-
ences with the noble lord who was her Majesty's Ambassa-
dor in China. I doubt whether this is an occasion when
we can conveniently and usefully discuss the whole ques-
tion with regard to China ; but, at the same time, the hon.
gentleman (Mr. B. Cochrane) who brought forward this
subject made so many charges against Mr. Bruce, and in
so much detail, that I cannot altogether avoid question-
ing some parts of the narrative in which he introduced them.
The house will recollect that Mr. Bruce was sent to China
entirely for the purpose of obtaining the ratifications of the
treaty of Tien-tsin, and of acting at Pekin as her Majesty's
Envoy Extraordinary. Before he went he laid a paper be-
fore Lord Malmesbury, asking for instructions, and point-
ing out that, as there were parts of the treaty known to be
very unpalatable to the Chinese, $OlllO difficulties might
arise, not then perceived, in carrying the treaty into effect.
I must say that Mr. Bruce did not suggest that the entrance
to the Peiho would be resisted ; but he asked the question
whether he should insist on going to Pekin. Lord Meknes-
bury then directed him to go to Pekin, and gave him the
following instructions as to the mode of proceeding there :
" You will probably find it advisable, before your depar-
ture from Shanghai, to send an intimation to Pekin of your
approach, and to request that suitable arrangements may be
made for your honourable reception at the mouth of the
Peiho and at Tient-sin, and for your journey from that place
to Pekin. The admiral in command of her Majesty's naval
forces in China has been directed to send up with you to the
mouth of the Peiho a sufficient naval force, and unless any
unforeseen circumstances should appear to make another
arrangement ement more advisable it would seem desirable that
you should reach Tien-tsin in a British ship of war."
The case which actually occurred was not foreseen. Mr.
Bruce was directed to proceed to the mouth of the Peiho with
suitably 4aval fops. 4dmiral Hope says Mr. 13ruce said

with an "imposing" naval force. But I take it for grante a
that such a naval force was intended as would inspire so
much respect or awe to the Chinese that there would thenbe
no difficulty in proceeding up the Peiho and arriving at
Pekin. Many petitions have been addressed to me on the
assumption that Mr. Bruce, immediately on his arrival, at-
tempted to reach Pekin by force; that he intended to force
his way. Mr. Bruce, I submit, acted exactly according to
his instructions. He wrote immediately on his arrival at
Shanghai, on the 10th of May, to ask that suitable prepara-
tions should be made for his reception. He said he should
proceod to Tiea-tsin, and when ho arrived there he hoped
suitable preparations would be made according to his cha-
racter as plenipotentiary for his conveyance to Pekin. He
states it in these words :

"The undersigned takes this opportunity of informing
his Excellency Kweliang that, in compliance with the
above instructions of his sovereign, he is about to proceed
without delay, by ship, to `Tien-tsin. He trusts the neces-
sary orders will be given for the conveyance of himself and
suite from thence to Pekin, and for the provision of suitable
accommodation for him during his residence in the capital
itself, in a manner befitting the dignity of the nation he re-
presents."
It is obvious that there is no contemplation of force in that
request, but that it is a simple request that the Ministers
of the Emperor of China will make due preparation far his
journey and reception. The hon. gentleman says that there
wore persons waiting at Shanghai to negotiate with him, and
that they were told by Lord Elgin te stay there for that
purpose. But it is rather remarkable that the hon.. gentle-
man, who professes a wish to show every indulgence to Mr.
Bruce, did not in this respect do him fair justice, because
the fact is that in the beginning of March Lord Elgin wrote
to the Ministers of the Emperor of China that he should not
return to Shanghai, that he was about to proceed to Eng-
land, and that another person would go from England with
the view of exchanging ratifications at Pekin, and residing
there as her Majesty's representative. (Hear, hear.) These
Chinese Ministers, after the receipt of that letter, remained
from the 30th of March until the middle of June, but no
one can say that they were justified in expecting either Lord
Elgin or Mr. Bruce to negotiate at Shanghai, when another
and more natural course had been decided upon. Mr. Bruce
accordingly, in further compliance with his instructions,
called on Admiral Hope to furnish him with
an adequate force. According to directions received
from Lord Elgin, that force was furnished, and he
proceeded to the mouth of the Peiho. Up to this
time he had had no intimation whatever from the
Chinese that his entrance to the Peiho and proceeding to
Tien-tsin would be opposed, or even objected to. These
Chinese Ministers proposed to re-negotiate or re-open cer-
tain points, and to alter some parts of the treaty. Mr. Bruce
very properly declared that that was no part of his duty;
that it was his duty to exchange ratifications, and not re-
open matters in the treaty, and that he intended to proceed
to the Peiho. If any one will look at the correspondence
with these ministers, he will find that, although they at-
tempted to re-open questions, yet after a time they appa-
rently coincided with Mr. Brup. At all events,
_ they de-
clared themselves ready to do what he desired. They made
some objections to the length of the journey and the time it
would take, but they never, nor do I believe it was in their
minds or knowledge to do so—they never suggested to Mr.
Bruce that the Emperor of China objected to that mode, or
that any resistance would be made to his proceeding to
Pekin. Indeed, I cannot conceive what objections there
could be, supposing the Emperor of China intended to ad-
mit him to Pekin and ratify the treaty. If that were the
Emperor's intention, there could be no objection to Mr. Bruce
proceeding by the usual and shortest route, and havirig
those advantages in his short journey of 40 miles from Tien-
tsin to the capital which would enable him to reach it in a
manner becoming the representative of a friendly Power.
But another party seems to have had a predominant influ-
ence with the Emperor of China. They do not manage
matters in that country as they do here. In England when
one party is in power the other is out. (Laughter.) The
one put sues a policy, the other criticises it. But in China
there are two parties in power at the same time, one being
for peace and the other for war, and therefore the treat-
ment shown to the mission was of a character totally dif-
ferent from that which was expected. Mr. Bruce desired
that the Admiral should proceed to the mouth of the Peiho,
and when there endeavour te ascertain what arrangements
had been made for his reception. He always proposed that
he should be allowed to go up with one or two ships, just
sufficient for himself and retinue. It was not proposed to
take up the whole squadron. The Admiral could not find
out what orders had been given. It did not appear whether
there was to be • resistance or not. A number of country
people appeared, whom Mr. Bruce calls a rabble, and they
said there was no person of authority among them, that
they were mere country people, that they had put stakes in
the river to defend themselves against pirates (which is not
a very unlikely event), and that they knew nothing of
what the Government would do. So matters remained
until the last moment. It was net that Mr. Bruce insisted
on refusing the proposition of the Emperor of China that
he should go by another route, but that up to nine o'clock
on the day the attack was made he was induced to think
that the Government of China was not disposed to resist.
(Hear, hear.) And let me say that my belief is, that if
Admiral Hope had been as successful as the gallant Admi-
ral (Seymour) was the year before in passing the forts and
destroying them, we should have heard that Mr. Bruce had
arrived at Pekin; that if his boat had got into the mud
there would have been hundreds of Chinese to assist him ;
and that the Emperor of China would have said the ree,
sistance was made against his orders, and that he was
quite ready to disavow any such resistance, and to receive
Mr. Bruce as became the representativr of a friendly
Power. But events, I must own, turned out otherwise. I
de not attempt to say precisely` what course was that which
might have saved Mr. Bruce from difficulty. It appears to
me that the evils which he had to consider were very great
on every side. (Hear, hear.) He was placed without in-
structions in a position he did not expect. He had with
him a large force. He had with him, mind you, a large
British force, with a British Admiral in command. He
desired the Admiral to clear the river. When the morning
came on which that was to be done, he received intimation
that if he would go to another place, ten miles off, he
would be received by a high officer, and means provided
by which he might reach Pekin. Let any one who really
feels that indulgence which the hon. gentleman professed
consider the difficult position in which Mr. Bruce was
placed. He was ordered by the Government of his country
to go to Pekin to, obtain the ratification of the treaty, and
not to ratify the treaty anywhere else. He was told at the
mouth of the river that militia and rabble had put in stakes,
in order to defend themselves against pirates. There were
some persons at Shanghai who told him that the Emperor
of China meant to resist the advance of the British Minister.
Other persons told him that preparations were made for
his reception, and everything would pass in tranquillity.
He had to decide this difficult question, whether he should
attempt to pass by force, or without orders desire the Bri-
tish Admiral to retire from forts which were taken with
• ease by a British force the year before, and thus give the
appearance to the whole of China—l may say to the whole
of England and the whole of Europe—of shrinking before
forts which were overcome a short time before. (Hear.)
Let us suppose he had taken the latter course. Let us con-
sider what opinion would then have been passed upon him
Let us suppose that at 9 o'clock in the morning he had said,
" I will not attempt to pass these forts, but submit to any
proposal which the Chinese Government may make." For
my own part, I am inclined to think that after the success-
ful resistance made to the British and French advance, the
Chinese were more disposed to be civil and apparently con-
ciliatory to the Americans than they would have been under
other circumstances. It was their obvious policy. Let us
suppose that Mr. Bruce had met with the same treatment
as the American Minister, and that he had been conveyed
to the capital in what is said to be not the most honourable
mode of conveyance. I will suppose him to have arrived
at the capital, and to have been told, as. Mr. Ward was,
that if he expected an audience he must perform the
kotoo—strike his head to the ground and offer himself
as the representative of a tributary nation. I will suppose
him to have displayed the same spirit as Mr. Ward—and lam
sure he would have displayed it—that he had replied that
ha would perform no ceremony which was not performed at
the courts of the Western Powers, or which would be consi-
dered as degrading, or as placing his Sovereign in an inferior
position to the Emperor of China. The Chinese would have
said to him, as they said to Mr. Ward, " What was the use
of your coming here, then ? You can't ratify your treaty ;
we will conduct you to the coast, and there it will be rati-
fied." Suppose Mr. Bruce had done all this, what would
have been said of his conduct here ? Would not people have
said to him, "You had instructions to go to Pekin to get
your treaty ratified ; you have not obeyed them ; you have
suffered humiliation, and you have not carried out your
object, your only excuse being that you had reason to appre-
hend some resistance, though you were aware, and, indeed,
had seen it with your own eyes, that a similar resistance
had been previously overcome with the greatest ease ? Don't
you know the character always given of the Chinese, that
they are an nnwarlike nation ? Don't you know that the
resistance from which you ran away might have been over-
come in half an hour P" Can anybody doubt that this would
have been the judgment passed on Mr. Bruce here? On
the other hand, there was the danger that, the Chinese,
having got ready their forts, blocked up the river, and alto-
gether made more extensive preparations than Mr. Bruce
was aware of, her Majesty's troops might have suffered
severe loss. These were the alternatives presented to Mr..
Bruce, and never was a civil officer placed in a situation of
more difficulty. Without attempting to decide—and I will
not attempt to decide myself whether his course was the
best—l say there were infinite difficulties on both sides, and
the Government were justified—and not only justified, but
they would have been neglecting their duty in doing other-
wise—in telling Mr. Bruce that their confidence in him
was not diminished by the course he had taken. (Hear,
hear.) I have said thus much because it was necessary,
after the numerous complaints which have been made
against Mr. Bruce, and after what has been said to-
night by the hon. member, to place befcire the house the
difficulties in which he was placed. (Hear, hear.) When
this news reached her Majesty's Government, wo came to
the immediate and unanimous conslusion that, whatever
might be the terms proposed to the Chinese Government, or
the course hereafter pursued towards them, it was neces-
sary to support them by such a force as should make it
manifest that our moderation was the result of willingness,
not of weakness. (Hear, hear.) With regard to the terms
we have offered, the gallant admiral said, most truly, that
we could not have asked for less than the treaty of Tien-
tsin, which had been signed and had received the special
approval of the Emperor of China. It would have been
impossible for us, because her Majesty's forces had suffered
a loss, because 400 or 500 men had been killed or wounded,
to give up a treaty solemnly agreed to, or to retreat from
conditions to which the Emperor of China had given his
consent. (Hear.) It was also necessary to ask for an apology
for what has occurred, to which I think we are entitled;
for, whatever may be the case of the Emperor of China,
with regard to his right of forbidding a passage up his
rivers, he was clearly not justified in barring the passage
without giving notice, or in entrapping the British Minis-
ter into an ambuscade. For such a proceeding the dignity
of the Crown and the nation requires an apology. I quite
agree with the gallant admiral that we should treat the
Chinese with every justice. It is not because England and
France are far stronger in war than China that therefore
we ought to give them an inch less than the justice to
which they aro entitled. (Year, hoar.) I agree with him,
too, that in pressing too severely upon the Emperor of
China wo may entirely dislocate the whole fabric of the
empire and the state of society, and that that which is our
only business there, commerce, might be seriously injured
by standing out for complete, instead of resting satisfied
with insufficient, terms of peace. But, at the same
time, everybody I have seen acquainted with China
Europeans in
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seriously directed, and I shall take an early opportunity,ns
soon as the next mail conies in, to state to the house the
course which the Government intend to pursue. (Hear,
hear.) In the meantime, n.ot fearing the decision of this
house, not unwilling to give i t every information, I venture
to say that I don't think that they are in a position, without
all the circumstances of the case before them, to come to a
decision. I think it would be well for the house to wait
before it pronounces any absolutely decisive opinion either
on the conduct of Mr. Bruce or the course which the Go-
vernment propose to pursue. I agree with the gallant ad-
miral that our business in China is commerce. A Minister
residing there would not have the same duties to perform as
a Minister residing at any European Court. His chief busi-
ness would be to protect his own countrymen residing in
the country, and to okain reparation for them if any of
them chanced to sustain injury; and it is a serious ques-
tion to consider whether this could be done by a Minister
residing at Pekin or at one of the outports, and going to
Pekin occasionally. There are matters which require grave
consideration. lam not saying now that we ought to ask
for more than we have already obtained, the option which
is given by the treaty of Tien-tsin. (Hear.) Every honour
has been rendered, and justly rendered, to the bravo men
who fought so gallantly yet unsuccessfully. (Hear, hear.)
But the character of the naval service has not yet suffered
by that misfortune. (Cheers.) I need only add that I shall
feel happy indeed if the measures which have been adopted
should lead by successful negotiation to the establishment of
permanent relations of peace with that country. (Hear.)
Sir J. PAKINGTON.—I very much agree with what
fell from the noble lord at the commencement of his speech,
that for several reasons the present is not a desirable
moment for entering into a general discussion of the ques-
tion of our relations with China. (Hear, hear.) That opinion
acquires even greater force from what was stated at the
conclusion of the noble lord's speech, and by the arrange-
ments which the Government have made for bringing
forward business of great importance. The questions aris-
ing out of the late unfortunate collision with China, in-
volving not only transactions which have occurred, but matter
affecting our future relations with that great empire, must
necessarily be of importance, and in many respects also of
extreme difficulty. The hon. member for Honiton, avail-
ing himself of tho right which ho undoubtedly possessed,
has placed before the house the opinions which he enter-
tains on some parts of the subject. He has stated them with
_ _

great clearness and ability; and I am bound to say, as far
as wo are now in possession of information, that there were
many parts of his observations in which I am much dis-
posed to concur. The noble lord, in answering my hon.
friend, passed in review several of the transactions which
have taken place, but he has not gone into the whole of
thorn ; and if I now abstain from entering more fully into
the subject, I wish it to be understood that I am not as-
senting to all that fell from the noble lord. (Hear, hear.)
The conduct of Mr. Bruce in particular is a point on which
I should be sorry to express any opinion. I am simply
anxious not to appear as altogether concurring is the inti-
mation that has fallen from the noble lord. My belief is,
that the conduct of Mr. Bruce must bo divided into two
periods—namely, that which elapsed prior to his leaving
Shanghai, and the subsequent period after his arrival at
the mouth of the Peiho. And I would remind the noble
lord that in his observations he has altogether omitted, or,
at least, he has touched very lightly on the despatch which
bears more than any read by him upon the question at issue
—I mean that sent by Mr. Bruce to Shanghai en the 12th
or 13th of June. On this matter I wish to be understood
as altogether reserving my opinion. But I have felt a very
great desire to hear what are the intentions of the Govern-
ment on so important and delicate a matter. I hope I may
infer from the little the noble lord has said to-day, that the
course which they will pursue will be one of moderation.
(Hear, hear.) Further than that I will not inquire, espe-
cially after the declaration, which I heard with great
satisfaction, and as to which I hope no misunderstanding
exists—that as soon as the next despatch is received, which
the Government expect will be on a very early day, we may
anticipate a full explanation from the noble lord of the
policy which they are prepared to adopt with regard to
China. [Lord John Russell signified his assent.] With
that understanding, I think the offer made by that noble
lord affords an additional reason for abstaining at this mo-
ment from any further discussion ; particularly as we are all
anxious to hear the statement of my noble friend opposite.
But although I thus wish to exercise some reserve in enter-
ing into the general question of our policy in China, there
is one part of the subject on which I wish to maintain no
reserve at all, that is, as to the appeal which I understood
was in some sense made to me by the right hon. and gal-
lant admiral the member for Devonport with regard to the
opinion expressed by the bite Board of Admiralty regarding
his conduct while in command of the Chinese station. I
confess I entertain some regret that the hon. and gallant
officer felt obliged as I presume he did in justice to himself
—to allude to the unfortunate difference which occurred
between him and the noble lord our ambassador in China.
I am inclined to believe that the fact of that difference was
very little known in this country—(hear)—and I am still
more strongly disposed to believe that no one was inclined
to attach blame to the gallant admiral. (Hear, hear,) lam
sorry that the matter has been brought before the House of
Commons, but as he has felt it due to himself to advert to
the subject, I think I am bound in justice to confirm what
has fallen from him, and to say that the Board of Admiralty
unanimously approved of his conduct. After the case was
brought under their notice, they sent out to the gallant ad-
miral for an explanation of the facts, and a full and clear ex-
planation was returned by the gallant officer. After it had
been carefully considered it was my pleasing duty to assure
him, on the part of the Board of Admiralty, that we ap-
proved of the course which he had adopted ; and I think I
am bound further to express the opinion of the Board that
there had been nothing in the conduct of the gallant ad-
miral which was not perfectly consistent with the high cha-
racter which he has at all times borne. (Hear.)
Sir DE L. EVANS said, as he had placed a notice of mo-
tion on this subject upon the paper, he might be permitted
fo say a few words, which the hon. member who had intro-
duced the discussion had spared him the necessity of pro-
longing to any great extent. The policy to be pur-
sued towards China by her Majesty's Government
ho hoped would be maturely considered ; but with re-
gard to this question the noble lord the Secretary of
State for Foreign Affairs appeared in a new character.
The house would remember the eloquence and grace with
which he had delivered his opinions on the same subject on a
former occasion ; but he could not as truthfully congratulate
the noble lord on the extenuatory speech of that evening,
and he did not think he had satisfactorily replied to the
arguments of the hon. member for Honiton. The noble lord
had stated that every indulgence was to be extended to Mr.
Bruce ; but the important question still remained, whether
in making war on another country, he was justified by his
instructions, or whether his acts had been subsequently
approved of by the Government. (Hear, hear.) In a
speech made by the Earl ef Derby on the 24th of January,
he said—(Order)
The SPEAKER—The gallant general must not read a
speech which was made in the House of Lords.
Sir DE L. EVANS said he would simply refer to the
speech as being made "in another place." The noble earl
was reported to have said,—
The SPEAKER —The gallant general is equally out of
order in repeating what took place during the present ses-
sion of Parliament in the House of Lords.
Sir DE L. EVANS said he would not allude to the House
of Lords. He would merely state that a noble lord who had
been Prime Minister at no very distant period, had declared
that Mr. Bruce was not sanctioned byany instructions from
his Government in the course which he had pursued. There
were some other passages of importance in the speech of the
noble earl, but, under penalty of the displeasure of the
Speaker, he would not refer to them ; the despatch of the
noble lord the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, how-
ever, might be legitimately remarked on. That noble lord
who now extended an absolute approbation to the conduct
of Mr. Bruce, stated in the last document which he had
submitted to the house,
"Now, although the denial of a passage to the capital by
the usual and most convenient route would have been evi-
donee of an unfriendly disposition, yet it was a matter upon
which you might have remonstrated and negotiated, without
having recourse to force to clear the passage."
Now they were told by the noble lord that it would have
been unbecoming to the English character and reputation
if he had remonstrated or proceeded according to any other
course than that which he had adopted. [Lord J. Russell—
No.] Surely, there was some inconsistency in such a de-
claration. He understood the noble lord to deny that such
was his meaning. If, however, the effect of the discussion
which had taken place were to induce her Majesty's Govern-
ment to nominate some high personage to conduct the ne-
gotiations in China, who did not labour ander the disad-
vantae-*e of having been mixed up in the previous centre-
versy,he believed that a beneficial result would have been at-
tained. Under these circumstances, it would ill become him
to press the motion of which he had given notice. But the
noble lord, in alluding to this matter, had not attached suffi-
cient importance to the war they were then engaged in. It
was a war which would employ an army of 30,000 men.
The noble lord had stated, satisfactorily as far as it went, but
rather vaguely, that the demands •her Majesty's Govern-
ment would make on China were very moderate. The de-
mands might be of that character, but if they were to be
backed by 30,000 men, the results of such demands night be
by no means moderate. (Hear, hear.) It was a subjeet for
the most serious consideration by tho house. He would
postpone his motion till the period alluded to by the noble
lord.

Lord PALMERSTON—I hope the house will agree to
postpone the discussion of this question till my noble friend
shall be enabled by the arrival of further accounts front
China to explain to the house fully what course her Ma-
jesty's Government intends to pursue. We have another
important subject binned iately coming on, and I should hope
the house will forbear the discussion of this question at pre-
sent, in order to go at once into the navy estimates. (Hear,
hear.) I will only observe that the hon. and gallant general
appears to have misunderstood something that fell from my
noble ',friend, and consequently sets some inconsistency in
it. But there really is none ; the gallant general supposes
my noble friend to have told Mr. Bruce that if he had been
informed beforehand that he could not be allowed to go up
the Peiho, lie might have remonstrated, and some arrange-
, merit might have been made as to the manner in which he
should have proceeded to Pekin. Now what my noble friend
said was, that no such intimation having boon given by the
Chinese authorities, and the expedition having been already
detained for some time at the Mouth of the Peiho without
receiving any intelligence as to its route, it was not advis-
able under such circumstances, to retire without attempting
to ascend the river. It must also be recollected that Mr.
Bruce's decision was probably influenced by his instructions
from Lord Malmesbury, who told him he was to be accom-
panied by a sufficient force. Mr. Bruce might not very un-
naturally, think that this force was to be " sufficient for
some purpose or other. As the immediate purpose was to
go up in a ship-of-war to Tien-tsin, he might also be al-
lowed to consider that the sufficiency of the accompanying
force was to be measured by its power of overcoming any
obstacle in the way. But I will not est the example of
continuing the discussion I ant now asking the house
to postpone. (Hear, hear.) I wish now to state that the
hon. and learned member for Bridgwater (Mr. liinglake)
hits a !notion standing on the notice paper for to-morrow
evening. In the present state of things, it will be
very inconvenient to press on a discussion upon that motion;
awl I would ask the hon. and learned member to postpone it
till a time when the house will be better able to consider it,
Sir C. NA IE It thought s great deal had been said in
justification of Mr. Bruce, but a very little of Admiral Hope.
lie was sure the house would like to hear were of the cou-
rgt•e he had shown in the action in the Poplin) than they
would see in the despatches. He then read a letter from
an officer who was near the admiral during ttlt &Gaon. It I
said :

" I am going to try and give you an account of our meet
diaastrous affair, as my time will allow, and I know you
will make allowance for me. I suppose the Adrairig'4 do,
i:pateh will be published, but I doubt if ye will get all
there ; at any rate, you calluQ: Lear from that source how
nobly IVre went into action at 2 30, the Ad-
miral standing on the top of the cook house, myself and
the French captain ott the harness cults iu groat 9f 444,

By 3 o'clock he was badly wounded by a round shot taking
away the fleshy part of the thigh, the lieutenant command-
ing and 8 men killed, and 22 badly wounded. She then
dropped down for more men, and the Admiral left her to
hoist his flag in the Opossum. All this time his wound had
been unattended to, except what my little surgical know-
ledge pointed out. When we left therlover there were
nine of us with a whole-skin left out of her crew ; she was
literally like a butcher's slaughterhouse. We had not
been long in the Opossum before the Admiral was again
wounded. We had managed to get him on the top of the
cook-house again, and, being weak from his wound, he
was supporting himself by the mainstay, when a round
shot took that away, and threw him down on the deck, in-
juring him on the hzad and fracturing his ribs—still he
would not give in, and was placed on the gunwale, till, at
last, being quite done up, he fainted. I then got him
into a boat (French), and was taking him away, but he
came to and asked me which was the ship furthest in. I
said ' Cormorant." Then take me there.' So we went to
the Cormorant, where, finding him perfectly unable to stand,
I had the signal made for Capt. Shadwell, the senior cap •
tain, who came on board and took charge."
In all naval history there was no instance of an
officer showing greater gallantry. (Hear, hear.) He
' would not go into the question whether Admiral Hope
was right or wrong in the attack he made. But he
thought her Majesty's Government would only show a
good feeling if it sent him ourthe Victoria Cross. It was
not a decoration intended only for successful actions; it,
was the reward of great valour, and no officer had ever
displayed more than Admiral Hope. He trusted the Go-
vernment would see the necessity and propriety of giving
him the Cross.
THE ANNEXATION OF SAVOY AND NICE.
Mr. KINGLAKE said he had, on the previous day, re-
ceived a note from the noble lord the Secretary for Foreign
Affairs, containing an intimation similar to that just ex-
pressed by the noble lord (Palmerston). The application
was based on the fact that bringing on the motion to-
morrow would be injurious to the public service and
affect the negotiations still going on on the subject (the
annexation of Savoy and Nice to France). On receiving
the note, he felt it his duty to ask the noble lord to make the
application publicly in the House ; and he had also
communicated the facts and the course he intended to take
to the right hon. member for Buckinghamshire (Mr.
Disraeli). He could not but express his regret at the
decision the Government had arrived at in determining to
intercept the voice of the House of Commons on this
question. (Hear, hear.) He believed that a calm and
temperate expression of the opinion of the House of
Commons would not have weakened the efforts of her
Majesty's Government, but materially have strengthened
their hands. he might also be permitted, in a humble
way, to express his own opinion that her Majesty's
Ministers, in the course of that discussion, would
possibly have obtained a knowledge of dry facts which,
as far as he could judge, they did not then possess. He
ventured to say this because, if he rightly understood
some statements made by Earl Granville in another
place, her Majesty's Government appeared to have acted
under a singular mistake, a mistake for the existence
of which he could easily account, but which might be
fraught with the most momentous consequences. Since this
appeal, however, had been made to him by the noble Secre-
tary for Foreign Affairs, he, as a loyal subject of the Queen,
must assent to the delay. On the other hand, he should
have the right to expect that his motion would be allowed
to come on at such a time that it would not come on in
vain. He was informed that the 20th of this month was
the day fixed for completing the Act in question. The day
on which the noble lord proposed he should bring on his
motion was the 28th. (Hear, hear.) This was naturally
unsatisfactory to him, as it was just eight days after the
date when it was reported the Act was to be completed. He
should, however, be prepared to accept the assurance of
the noble lord at the head of the Government that the 28th
inst. would not be too late a day to secure the objeet which
he had in view in entering upon the discussion of an im-
portant question. He need hardly add that he should ex-
pect, should any circumstances in the meantime occur ren
dering it desirable that a day earlier than the 28th should
be selected for that discussion--for he had no doubt the
house were of opinion it ought to take place before the event
against which it was meant to provide had come to pass—
(hear, hear)—the noble lord would feel it to be his duty to
make such communication either to him or to the house as
would lead to the result which both had in view. (Hear.)
Sir J. ELPHINST ONE, reverting to the discussion on
the subject of China, cautioned the Government against the
dangers which would beset the expedition which was being
fitted out against that country if it were to arrive in the
waters of Pekin so late as November, when the monsoon
changed from the north, and when the Gulf of Pecheli was
so acted upon by the winds that it was impossible for vessels
to approach the land. The expedition, under these circum-
stances, would be liable to have its supplies cut off, and,
having to deal with a hostile and ingenious enemy, a second
Cabul disaster might be the result.
Sir R. PEEL, taking up the subject of the cession of
Savoy to France, said that his hon. friend (Mr. Kinglike)
was of course bound to yield, as ho had done, to the wish of
the noble lord at the head of the Government with respect
to the postponement of his motion. It vas, however, of the
utmost importance that the question to which that motion
related should be discussed without delay. (Hear, hear.)
It was one with respect to which he, as well as his hon.
friend, had received private information of the utmost im-
portance ; and ho could not help thinking, with all due de-
ference to his noble friend (Lord Palmerston), that it would
be for the public advantage that the House of Commons
should be afforded an opportunity of giving expression to
their opinions upon the subject. He must add that theneble
lord seemed to him to be very shy and coy—(a laugh)—in
furnishing the house with information on matters connected
with foreign affairs, and not to be disposed to act with that
liberality on the point which was desirable. The Govern-
ment, of course, ho was aware, occupied a position as well
in the case of foreign as of domestic policy which required
that no ordinary amount of consideration should be extended
to them ; but it must, nevertheless, be borae in mind that
discussions in that house, and the determination at which
' it might arrive on any particular question, were calculated
to produce an effect abroad, and that being so, he should ap-
peal to his noble friend at the head of the Government to fix
a day when the motion of the hon. member for Bridgewater
might be proceeded with. The question of the cession of
Savoy to France was one, he might add, which affected very
much the future of Switzerland, and he held in his possession
letters assuring him that the treaty by which that cession
was accomplished had already been signed. (Hear, hear.)
He had, moreover, been asked to plead the cause of witur-
land in that house, and to state on her behalf that if Savoy
were made over to France the neutrality of Switzerland
would be at an end—a neutrality which was guaranteed by
the treaties of 1815, which the noble lord the member for
Tiverton called the charters by which the European Powers
now held the territories which they possessed. If, then, the
cession in question were to take place, a most scandalous
and iniquitous proceeding, and one which would affect the
future position of European nations perhaps lead to Euro-
pean convulsion, would have been resorted to. (Hear, hear.)
He should therefore again entreat his noble friend to name
a day when the discussion upon the subject might be en-
tered upon.
Admiral WALCOTT, returning to the question of China,
expressed his cordial concurrence in the suggestion of his
hon. and gallant friend opposite (Sir C. Napier), that the
Victoria Cross should be conferred on Admiral Hope. It
had, he admitted, been almost always the practice of the '
Government of this country not to grant rewards for deeds
of heroism which were not followed by success ; but then
he should remind the house that Admiral Hope had acted
in the case of the encounter at the mouth of the Peiho not
upon his own responsibility, but upon the authority and at
the request of Mr. Bruce, so that he did not corae within
the scope of the rule by which honour was refused to un-
successful bravery because of the stimulus which a contrary
course was supposed to afford to the undertaking of rash
and disastrous enterprises. He trusted, however, that in
honouring Admiral Hope, the Government would not forget
the gallantry which had been displayed by the officers and
men who had served under his command. (Hear, hear.)
Lord C. PAGET expressed his regret that the gallant
officer who had just spoken, as well as some other distin-
guished members of the naval profession, should seem to
think that the Government had not done justice to that
most heroic officer, Admiral Hope, for his conduct at the
mouth of the Peiho. He could, however, state with the
utmost sincerity that the Admiralty highly appreciated
that conduct, as well as the bravery of the gallant band
who were under Admiral Hope's command, and the loss of
1 many of whom the country had reason to deplore. (Hear,
hear.) The Admiralty, he might add, had not confined their
appreciation to mere words. Admiral Hope had had several
promotions placed at his disposal, in consequence of the
encounter of the Peiho, and three officers had already been
promoted on his recommendation. Ho had been further
informed that a gunner, boatswain, carpenter, and three
engineers might be advanced. It was hardly fair, there-
fore, to contend that the Admiralty were not alive to the
heroism which had been exhibited on the part of our sailors
at the Peiho, while he must beg the house to bear in mind
that it was desirable a certain amount of discrimination
should always be exercised between a victorious enterprise
and one which happened not to be successful, for the reason
os ion, that had alleged.
(H
Ad-
miral Hope and the officers whom he commanded had the
say, i
which the
h eargallant.)
H •Adm couldi
ralonly n whohad just
ncluspoken
e
full approval of the Government. (Hear, hear)
The subject then dropped, and the Sr BAICER having put
the question that the house go into Committee of

SUPPLY.—EXPORT OF COAL--
Mr. lIORSMAN rose to put a question to the Govern-
ment with respect to the commercial treaty with France.
The house would bear in mind that when it had been first
rumoured that that treaty was about to be entered into
there existed in this country a feeling rather opposed to it,
but that when it had been announced by the noble lord at
the head of the Government that no provision of tho
treaty would be carried into effect until it had been
submitted to and received the sanction of Parliament, bpu -
lic confidence had to some extent been restored. The treaty
contained this stipulation,—that it should not be valid un-
less her Britannic Majesty was authorized by the assent of
her Parliament to execute the engagements contracted by
her in the several articles of the treaty. The question he
had to ask was, how her Majesty's Minister intended to
proceed in order to obtain the assent of Parliament to the
articles of the treaty ? The house would observe that the
article of the treaty with respect to coal was different from
any other article. It was not brought under the considera-
tion of the house in committee of supply, where they voted
to take off duties. By this article they had only pledged
themselves not to pit a duty on, and therefore in commit-
tee of supply this article of the treaty would not be sub-
mitted to them arid their assent to it could not be obtained.
Ile attached the more importance to this because the article
was the roost remarkable in the whole treaty. The house
would remember that the article of coal was the one first to
be admitted into Prance, very much prior to the date at
which the general admission of English articles was to be
allowed. It was also to be admitted at a very much lower
duty ; not only so, but at a fluty of an entirely different
character; because, while all other articles were ad-
mitted under a protective duty and a high protective
duty, the article of coal was to be admitted at a low re-
venue duty. By this article we bound ourselves in all time
Cowing not to make coal an article of revenue, while we
allowed France to make it an article of revenue to her.
This was iutpot tent in a constitutional point of view. By
thin treaty her Majesty bound her Ministers, in the first
instance, in all time coming, that they should not propose a
duty on coal, and it also bound her, if any private member
passed a bill through that house imposing a duty on it, to
interpose her veto. Whatever the exigencies of the State,
though every other article were taxed to the highest point,
the Chancellor of the Exeheqner could not under this
treaty derive arty revenue from coal ; and the stipulation
applied not only to France, but to all other countries—
whatever our political relations with any other States in the
world, we could not put an export duty on coal to any coon- '
tri? whicit W 919 0.9 t at War. Ho did net wish to

- -
__-
say anything in behalf of an export duty. Export duties
were vicious in principle, and indeed indefensible. But
coal was an exceptional article—anexhaustible commodity.
Scientific men werealarined at the progress of the consump-
tion of coal. It was well known that the late Dr. Buck-
land, an intimate friend of Sir Robert Peel, had urged him
very strongly to put an export duty on coal ; and though
he did not connect the two as cause and effect, Sir R. Peel
did in 1842 so far violate his now triumphant principles of
political economy as to put on coal, and on coal alone, an
export duty. (Hear, hear.) He attached the greater im-
portance to this article from the language used by the,noble
lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs in his letter of in-
structions to the plenipotentiaries. It was the opinipn of
scientific men, after survey, that even at the present rate of
consumption the coal of this country could not last 300
years—a short time in the life of a nation. The greatness
of England depended on her coal. (Hear, hear.) They
were bound to legislate for the future as well as the present.
(Hear, hear.) It was not a question whether they ehould
now put on an export duty on coal; they were going io the
opposite extreme, and giving a bonus on its exportation.
He had intended to move for a Royal Commission to in-
quire into the statistics affecting coal, and how long, at the
rate of the present consumption, it was likely to last; but
when the French treaty was talked of, he gave up the ides,
lest he might appear to come into collision with it. Since he
had seen the articles in the treaty that notion had revived,
and he thought it would be a very wise act on the part of
the Government to issue a commiseiouto inquire into this
subject. With respect to this particular article of the
treaty, the only ono that appeared to be withdrawn from
the notice and sanction of Parliament, it was so important
that he confessed he would rather that all the rest should be
withdrawn than that this should stand. (Hear, hear.) He
washed to know how the Government proposed to 'proceed
in taking the assent of the house to this article ?
Mr. A. SMITH thought it important to add to the state-
ment of the right hon. member for Stroud that, while the
article obliged us not to put any duty on the export of coal,
there was no reciprocal obligation en France not to,put ex-
port duties on articles sent to this country. Nay, more, on
wine, brandy, and almost all other articles of French pro-
duce an export duty was put. If this clause of the treaty
were allowed to remain as it was, it should be mid* to ap-
ply to export duties put en by France on articles of her
produce.
Mr. GREGSON believed that, according to tho.saleula-
tions of scientific men, our coal formation would last for
1,200 years.
Colonel HERBERT could not kelp observing that very
important consequences were involved in this article of
treaty. As he read it, in the event of any angry discussion
with France tending to war, and making war imminent,
nothing short of an absolute declaration of war on oir...part
would enable us to prohibit the importation of coal. (Hwy
hear.) There was another point—in the event of :war with
any other Power, even during the continuance of that war
nothing could enable us to prohibit the exportation of
ooal
to France, thus making France a coal depot, with a power
of selling it to the other nation with which we might 'be at
war. (Hear, hear.) In the event of war between Franco
and any other Power we equally engaged not to prohibit the
exportation of coal. It might so occur that France, being
engaged in war with some other nation, we might be pre-
pared, not to take part in it, but to take the line, perfoctlT
right in a neutral Power, to prevent the exportation of coal
to France for the purpose of carrying on the war. Coal we.
not yet decided to be contraband of war; but it was in the
power of our Courts so to declare it. Whether .o declared
or not, however, it was obviously as much an article of war-
like stores as gunpowder, or any other material which had
always been so regarded. Such being the case,- he hopedto receive from the Government some explanation on-this
article of the tariff.
Mr. AYRTON expressed a hope that the second reeding
of the Corporation (City of London) Bill would be so fixed
that its coming on would not be left in uncertainty from the
number of notices which preceded it.
Mr. RICARDO said the object of our commercial legis-
lation should be to exchange that which wo could produce
with the greatest facility for that which we most required.
It was to be expected that many captious objections should
be taken to the fiscal arrangements recently announced;
but the very last objection to have been anticipated cer-
tainly was the one now urged against the exchange of that
commodity which of all others we could produce cheijiest
and with the greatest advantage to ourselves. Most writers
on political economy held that there was very little diffe-
rence between an export and an import duty ; and unless we
put an export duty on coal, how were we to prevent that
article from being exported ? This was a question not for
us, but for other countries to decide. There was nothing
new in the exportation of coal from England. Now, how..
ever, the French Government were willing to admit our
coal duty free--(" No.")— or at least at a reduced duty.
Where was the great misfortune in that ? As far as w.f•
like objects were concerned, there was no reason why the
French Government should not have admitted our ooal and
iron at any previous time, except that it hadhitherto thought
fit to levy an import duty upon them for State purpose..
The present was not, however, a proper occasion for discuss*
ing the great question of the commercial treaty.
Sir H. 'WILLOUGHBY agreed that the general subject
could not be discussed then, but the object of ,the right hon.
member for Stroud was a simple one. He wished to obtain
from the Government some explanation as to the manner
in which a particular article in the treaty was to be dealt
with by the house. (Hear.) That question was one e(
great importance.
Lord PALMERSTON having already spoken' did net
intend to trespass on the indulgence of the house by asking
permission to enter into details with reference to that pore
tion of the treaty. Full information would be given on
that as well as on other points on Monday next. (Hear.
and a laugh.) It was inconvenient to anticipate now what
would be duly explained on the proper occasion. He had
risen solely to answer the question that had been put to his
relative to the bill for the reform of the Corporation oir
London. That measure was fixed for Thursday. Other
matters, however, stood for Thursday ; and if that bill
could not then come on at a proper hour for a fair 'disotne
sloe, it would be fixed for some other day.
THR NAVY.

Mr. WILLIAMS called attention to the enormous in.
crease in the Navy Estimates for the present year. Thesis
estimates, the grand total of which exceeded £12,800,Q06,
were larger in amount by more than a million than any tha.
had ever been presented to that House in thus of polo'
Such an augmentation in our armaments was natural
supposed by the country to indicate that the Government
were under an apprehension that war would occur at "
distant period. It was desirable that the House should
know from the Government whether there was any founds*
tion for that impression. If there was not, the Government
were not justified in submitting such extravagant estimate*
to Parliament. This expenditure was increasing at a faartal
ratio, and must continue to do so unless the House took OW
matter seriously into its own hands. The greatet the iv•
penditure the greater the patronage at the command of the
Ministry of the day. He noticed, with regard to air
building, that the shipwrights' wages per ton were ifi per
cent. higher at Woolwich than at Chatham, and he
thought the difference most extraordinary. He inquired
whether it was the intention of the Government to go 0*
creating a vast accumulation of admirals. There war*
336 admirals in the present estimates, and that was an
admiral for almost every ship and gun-boat in the navy.
With regard to Generals of Marines, there were no Imo
than 38 in the present estimates, though he believed that
during the last war ne such officer was known. He believed
the appointment to be a sinecure. A vast amount of money
was spent as bounties and gratuities, and he therefore
hoped that the noble Secretary to the Admiralty would b.
able to give a better account than he had given last year of
the success of the new scheme for procuring able seamen ;
and he likewise trusted that the noble lord at the head of
the Government would state whether it was on account 01
the apprehension of war with any great Power that he rt..
quired so much money for naval and military purposes.
Col. SYKES believed that if the expenditure went set
increasing at the present rate from year to year, the time
would shortly arrive when the country would not be able to
meet it. As far as appearances went there was no pastillas.
tion for the enormous increase in the navy and arm l *sib.
mates. Was the country in a state of war or peace ? wee
only in a state of suspicion with respect to another nation
probably. In the name of common sense, then, why could
not an arrangement be made fora mutual disarmament
He expressed disappointment that the Secretary to the Ad-
miralty had not proved so great a friend to economy aa
had been led to hope.
Mr. LINDSAY said that though he deeply regretted the
great increase in the estimates, and did not think there wan
that necessity for it which others imagined, he acquitted the
noble Secretary to the Admiralty from all responsibility on
account of the increase. The noble lord, simply as an ince-
cutive officer, carried out the wishes of the house, and the
only question was, whether they were getting the best tall*
for the money spent.
Mr. BRNTINCK conceived that the term Inutitil dia•
armament was an absurdity. There could be no mutual disarmament between Franco and this country, for what
was disarmament here was nit disarmament in France. It
certainly was not the fault of the noble Secretary the
Admiralty that he had not been able in office to carryout
those economical views which he advocated in Opposition;
for during the time the noble lord had been in office, no mail
could have worked harder to give effect to the pledgee he
had previously made. He maintained, moreover, that. Mar
navy, far from excessive, was hardly adequate to the re-
quirements of the country, considering the events which
might occur even within the next few mouths. (Hear.)
Captain JERVIS attributed the large demands whit&
were now made upon the country far purposes of defence to
the House of Commons having been so long "led by the
nose" by the lato Mr. Hume. In addition to the £70,000,000
of which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had spoken 0
Friday night, no less a sum than £10,000,000 would be re•
quired for national defences. If the Holm of Common's laill
done its duty from 1825 downwards we should not now be
called upon to pay for what ought to have been done long
ago. (Hear, hear.)
THE NAVY ESTIMATES.
The house having resolved itself into Committee of
,Sulpir
ply, Mr. Massey in the chair,
Lord C. PAGET rose and said,—Sir, the observations 011
the hon. member for Lambeth, and those of the hon. and
gallant member for Aberdeen, were not required to dozer/nab
me of the great responsibility which rests upon my shoulder*
in proposing estimates for the navy larger than those which
were voted last year by upwards of a million. The incresise
in the estimates is a fact which I readily admit, and that*.
fore in asking, on the part of the Government, the Commit*
tee to vote so vast a sum of money, it behoves me to sbo
the necessity for keeping up large armaments, and &MUM*
ing, certainly during the present year, our great oyster* a
construction of ships. (Hear, hear.) I believe it will be
conceded by all that, apart from the navies of other natio*
it is absolutely necessary that England, with her numerotte
colonies and her enormous commerce, should maintain tape*
the seas a considerable number of vessels. (Hear, heir.)
Even supposing, therefore, that every other Euromit
Power were suddenly to disarm, and to lay up its vessels ill
its ports, we should still be obliged, for tho police of tits
seas, to maintain a large force afloat. Such, then, is onis
consideration to which importance ought to be attached
when wo discuss the navy estimates year by year. (Hear)
It is not my intention upon the present occasion to refer ti
the past. I shall confine my observations to the prom*
and as far as possible to professional subjects, avoiding all
matters of high national policy. (Hear, hear) Oyer 'and
above the question of the maintenance of squadrons for the
protection of our colonies and the police of the seas, we
nitwit, of course, consider what is the condition of other
countries with respect to their navies. For, be it repeal'
bered, our navy is a new creation. It is the product of the
lat sdecade. All nations have recently started fair. A. far
years ago we had a vast number of line-of-battle ships and
frigates, and by turning out a certain number of new vessel°

every year, and patching up old ones, we managed to main'
min our superiority at sea. But a change took place, and
suddenly wo found ourselves upon an equality with the rest
of the world. It behoves us, then, immediately to set to work
reptizi that superiority, of which the introduction of At"