The Sun.
London, England, 1860-06-08 00:00:00

dividual who was entirely irresponsible as a Minister. (Hear,

hear.) This game had gone on for a Tong time, Three Prinz°
Ministers had recommended her Majesty to draw the atten-
tion of Parliament to the amendment of the representation
of the people, and had laid bills on the subject before the
House of Commons. The late Government were of opinion

that, after all that had occurred, seeing that session after
session questions of Parliamentary reform had been carried
in detail by majorities, though not acted upon, it was advis-
able to bring in a measure. I will not argue now on the
merits or demerits of that measure, but I must tell the noble
lord, as he commenced the controversy, that we brought for
ward that measure because in our opinion it was a Conser-
vative measure, and we view his measure with suspicion,
because we think its tendencies are not Conservative. It is
very well to talk of being agreel in principles. I remember
in those great days when we had our debates on free trade,
it was a common jibe of hon. gentlemen opposite, when any
gentleman hers said he was a free-trader, but did not ap-
prove of the particular measure before the house, " Oh, it's
all very well to agree in the pi ineiples of free trade, but all
depends upon the application of them." The noble lord is
by no means justified in saying that lecause we may agree
in the principle of Parliamentary ref ,rm, and in the exten-
sion of the, franchise to those who do not possess it, that

therefore we are not bound to take into consideration what
may be the possible consequences of the measure now in
our hands. (Hear, hear.) I don't think that would be a
wise course to take ; on the contrary, the time that has been
taken up, from accident in a great degree, but in a much
greater from the aversion of the noble lord's supporters to
this bill, has enlightened the public mind, and when we are
in committee, if ever we got there, we shall be able to con-
sider the principles which the noble lord has laid down with
much greater effect and with much more advantage to the
community. (Cheers.) These have been the principal topics
of the noble lord's speech, but he hardly addressed one syl-
lable to the question immediately under our consideration.
(Hear, hear.) Absent, I suppose, from the house during
the whole of the evening, he must have entered in clear
ignorance of what had taken place in his absence. He
must have supposed that we were continuing the debate
of the " vexatious amendment" made by one of his
principal supporters. (Laughter.) He can hardly lay it
down as a principle that when the Government have
made the most important announcement that they will
not proceed wi h the amendment of the representation of
the people as far as Scotland and Ireland are concerned,
the house should not desire to consider the new position in
which they are placed, and should not stop in a precipitate
career to inquire what may be the constitutional conse-
quences of such a course. (Hear.) The noble lord has
not referred to the dilemma in which he was placed by my
hon. friend the member for Belfast, or, if he did just refer
to it, he did not appear in any degree to extricate himself
from it. (Hear.) There is something even beyond that
dilemma on which he has not touched, or at least he said
just enough about it to show that he was t cared at the diffi-
culty which was placed hefore him, and which he found it
impossible to avoid. The noble lord proposes that we shal
this year reform, as is the general phrase, or rather amend the
representation of the people in this country—that is, largely
increase the constituent body of the country, and bring in a
new class, and that class belonging to a much lower sphere
of society than that which now enjoys it. He tells us now
very differently from what was told us by his colleagues :
" When this bill is passed we shall not have time to deal
with Scotland and Ireland, and we shall not consider our-
selves satisfied, nor do we think any Minister would consider
himself justified in counselling the Sovereign to exercise
her prerogative until the amendment of the representation
of Ireland and Scotland is also accomplished."
That the noble lord has announced now for the first time
in unhesitating and unqualified terms. But what is the
security that next year the representation of Scotland and
Ireland will be amended? (Hear, hear.) These are not
times in which we can count on such results. (Hear, hear.)
I could dwell mueh on that point, but I will not at the
present moment ; but, admitting that next year these two
great imperial results are achieved, the noble lord will not
deny this, that, thanks to the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer, we shall have the whole question of the taxation of
the country to consider next year, and under circum-
stances most difficult, most liable to misconception in
the public mind, and most calculated to create dis-
quietude and discontent in the public mind, even to raise
disorder among the masses who are to be enfranchised,
and that these grave questions of finance are to be settled
not only by a moribund, but a condemned and dishonoured
Parliament. (Cheers.) Is that a question unworthy of the
discussion of the House of Commons? (Hear.) What have
we been discussing to -night but that great question? It is
not a question to be settled by the reckless raillery with
which the noble lord had treated it to-night, (Hear.) It is
one of the greatest questions which can be brought before
the house, and we should be unworthy of our position, we
should have offered an unanswerable argument for the re •
farm and reconstruction of the house, if, under such cir-
cumstances, we attempted to evade the difficulty. So much
for the speech of the noble lord, and for his unfounded
charge against the Tory party of having offered to his sus-
picious and perhaps perillous legislation unnecessary delay.
I think I have answered that point. (Hear, hear.) So much,
too, for the noble lord's argument that because he has
chosen arbitrarily to assume that we have agreed to what
he conveniently styles the principle of his measure we are
to be debarred from contemplating and considering in a
statesmanlike and consistent manner what must be the con •
sequence of the application of those principles to the state
of society in which we live. So far, in the third place, as
to the remarks of the noble lord with regard to the im-
portant theme which has engaged the attention of the
house to-night--not, as I think, in a languid debate, but in
a discussion introduced will great ability, under circum-
stances most justifiable—(cheers)--and sustained on both
sides with that power which the interest of the subject
must inspire. (Hear.) The noble lord has made no satisfac-
factory reply. We have been favoured with his virgin
speech—(laughter)—but the noble lord has not treated the
subject in a way which inspires me with confidence in the
manner in which the Government is going to deal with this
subject. The noble lord, indeed, has left a painful impres-
sion on the house that he has taken up this subject rather
from party necessity than from political conviction. (Loud
cheers.) The noble lord has challenged us to a division.
On these grounds I meet him ; and I look to the result of
that division without apprehension. (Loud and sustained
cheering.)
Lord J. RUSSELL—I will not long delay the house from
a division. But there were some things said by the right
hon. gentleman of which I cannot refrain from taking notice.
In the first place, the right hon. gentleman has stated, as if
it were a fact, as if it formed part of history, that when out
of office we had been continually engaged in bringing for-
ward this question of reform, and that when in office we had
not carried our views into effect. During the whole time
from 1832 till last year I do not believe we ever brought for-
ward the question of reform when the party of the right hon.
gentlemen were in office. Recalling to mind the periods of
18`5, of 1841, of 1846, and the year 1852, I do not think we
ever brought forward the question of reform to disturb a
Conservative Government ; on the contrary, it was when we
were in office that we always introduced the subject. (Hear,
hear.) But the question we have now to determine is—is
this areal, tangible, substantial objection to proceeding with
this bill, or is'it a mere pretext in order to prevent a deci-
sion ? (Cheers.) And though the hon. and gallant gentle-
man the member for Ayrshire brought forward this amend-
ment with great ability, I cannot conceive how it can be
argued that it was our duty to say we would take the
Irish and Scotch Reform Bills into consideration during
the present session. If we had done so—if we had stated
at this period of the year that we would not proceed
with the English Reform Bill until we could enter-
tain the Irish_and Scotch bills together with it, it is quite
evident that on each of those the Opposition would have
consumed the time of the house ; they would have taken
the course they did upon the second reading of the English
bill; they would not have opposed the second reading, but
they would have wasted the time, and then they would
have said—" It is now too late to proceed with the English
bill." (Hear.) The only practical course we could pursue
was to take up the English bill, and to leave those for
Ireland and Scotland to another session. And what is the
reason which has been given against goinginto committee?
What was the argument employed by the hon. and learned
member for Belfast—what was the reason given by the
righthon. gentleman? It was that Parliament would then
be condemned, and would be unable and unfit to discuss this
question of reform. But we have never said that Parlia-
ment would not be perfectly capable of legislation. (Hear.)
We have not said, as we did in 1831, that there are 150 mem-
bers of the house who do not represent the people. After
that Act was passed, I admit the House of Commons stood
condemned ; but what has been said with regard to the pre-
sent measure amounts to this—that it would increase the
value of the representation, that it would add to its force
with the people, and that it would strengthen our institu-
tions, if a considerable number were added to the electors at
present on the roll. But that does not imply any con-
demnation on the House of Commons—(hear, hear)—
that is no reason whatever why the House of Com-
mons should not continue to discharge its functions
for another session, and, why, having entered on
the consideration of the English bill in the present session,
it should not take up the Scotch and Irish bills at a future
period. The hon. and learned member for Belfast said I
proposed the borough franchise first because I wished to
keep the county franchise higher ; and that I only fixed
upon the borough franchise with a view to secure the addi-
tion of a certain number to the constituencies. He misre-
presented me in both these particulars. I never advocated
a change in the county franchise upon any other ground
than that the house had repeatedly averred that a particular
rate would be a proper franchise for counties ; end with re-
d to the £6 borough franchise, I always expressed my
belief that men living in houses for which they paid a £6
rental -were in many cases artisans who by their intelligence
and integrity were well deserving of a vote.
"Well, then,
takeuly onen t
sidediscuss
or tthhee soot
other
A questionss minyb nolf
committee?
e
r
ied has M'hy
said,
not
and as it has been repeatedly put to the house, if you con:
sider this a revolutionary measure, that will destroy the in-
stitutions of the country, oppose it manfully. (Hear.) But
if you do not say that ; if you refuse to say that you will
not admit the working classes in great numbers, then your
only course is to go into committee, and determine what the
franchise should be. The party opposite, however, prefer
taking neither of these courses ; they will not make any fair
and open declaration of their views, but they seek by delay

and obstruction to. prevent a discussion of the measure in
committee. (Cheers, and cries of "Divide.")
The house then divided, when there appeared—
For the adjournment . 218
Against
Majority for the Government —2l
The Announcement of the numbers was received with
cheers anc: counter cheers.

Mr. B. V9CHRANE moved the adjournment of the
house.
The house di.T7l.dt:d. The numbers were—
For the adj.() 222
Against it .. , ..,
Majority .. ~ —45
The question upon Mr. li:ackinnon's amendment was
ut.nment
then put.
Mr. GRIFFITH moved tke adjournment of the debate.
(Hear, hear.)
Lord PALMERSTON said it was vat his intention to ask
the house to go further with the subject on the present oc-
casion. He was quite satisfied with the divioion which had
1 taken place—(cheers)—and as the sense of the house had been
sufficiently expz-es3ed, he should concur in the motion for
adjournment, and propose that the debate be adjourned till
MondayThemnoetxotn.
Mr.
iSTIRLINGfor theaske
adjournmentd wha t w was toth
eb
de
edboant
ee
w witha s t
ht he n
agreed to. *o
Scotch and Irish Reform Bills ? (Laughter.)
• REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE (IRELAND)

BILL.
Mr. CARDWELL moved that the order for the second
reading of this bill be discharged. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. HENNESSY opposed the motion.
Colonel FRENCH protested against the provisions of the
bill, and trusted that next year a very different measure
would be introduced.
The O'DONOGHUE moved the adjournment of the
debate.
After a short discussion the motion for the adjournment
was negatived, and the motion for discharging the order

agreed to.
The order was accordingly discharged.
REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE (SCOT-
LAND) BILL.
The LORD-ADVOCATE moved that the order for the
second reading of this bill be discharged.
Mr. BRUCE rose with the greatest pleasure to second
the motion (Cheers and laughter.)
The motion was agreed to, and the order was discharged.
The adjourned debate on the second reading of the Tenure
and Improvement of Land (Ireland) Bill was fixed for this
evening, on the understanding that if it could not then be
taken it should be proceeded with on the first open morning
sitting.

PROSECUTIONS FOR BRIBERY AT
WAKEFIELD.

Captain JERVIS moved a resolution to the following
effect :—" That whereas by the Act 17th and 18th Vie
toria, cap. 102, section 14, it is expressly enacted that no
person should be liable to be prosecuted for any offence come•
mitted against the said act unless such prosecution shall
commence within one year from the date of the said offeneer,
this house is of opinion, with reference to certain prosecu-
tions commenced at common law against divers persons at
Wakefield for offences committed at the late general election
against that act, but which prosecutions have not been
commenced within the time prescribed by that act, that
such prosecutions should be abandoned."
Lord PALMERSTON said it Ns as impossible at that late
hour of the evening to proceed with the discussion of the
resolution, which involved considerations of great im-
portance. He should therefore move the adjournment of
the debate.
After a few words from Mr. M. MYINES and one or two
other hon. members,
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said the House of Com-
mons was called upon by the resolution to perform func-
tions which did not belong to it—namely, to interfere with
the administration of justice. He might add that he did
not think it would be satisfactory to the country that a de-
cision on the question should be taken. in so thin a house—
[A hon. Member—There are 100 members present] —there
being very few present but those who were there for the
particular purpose of supporting the motion. He could only
say that, whatever the decision of the house under such cir-
cumstances might be, the prosecutions should be proceeded
with under the statute, notwithstanding' that he should bow
to that decision when duly recorded.
Captain JERVIS would not object to the adjournment
of the debate if the Attorney-General would pledge himself
to stay proceedings in the meantime.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL—•I will not stay pro-
ceedings for a single moment.
After some further conversation, the galleries were cleared
a division, but none took place, and the debate was ad-
journed to this (Friday) evening.
The house adjourned at five minutes past 3 o'clock.

COUNTRY NABKETS.

MANCHESTER-JUNE 7.

The high prices checked business. English wheat 15 to
2s per qr. Foreign 2d to 3d per 701bs dearer. Flour is
per sack higher. Oats and oatmeal neglected. Beans and
Indian corn unaltered in value.