The Sun.
London, England, 1860-05-16 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENING, MAY 16, 1860.

CIVIL SERVICE IN INDIA.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE moved for a despatch
from Mr. E. H. Lushington to the Commissioner of the
Nuddea district, dated the 23d of October, 1859, re-
-1 ating to the treatment of natives by European planters
in India, and also for a report of Mr. Read,
to the Lieutenant-Governer referred to therein. The
noble marquis also presented a petition from certain natives
of India praying for their admission into higher offices of
Government than are now open to them. The noble mar-
quis, in referring to the grievances of the petitioners, said
It was the general wish in India that a Royal Commission
might be sent out to inquire into the statement, set forth
in the petition. Taking into consideration the fearful events
which had occurred in India during the last few years, no
one either here or in India could doubt the fact that timely
information had been neglected, and hence the formidable
character of the insurrection. He much regretted that the
rules of their lordships' house prevented their printing the
petition he had presented, because otherwise one part of the
grievance would be remedied, for the petitioners considered
that their wishes had not proper regard paid to them ; the
petitioners now humbly prayed for a reduction of public ex-
penditure in order to a corresponding reductionof taxation ;
they earnestly wished that a more enlarged and improved
system of education might be introduced throughout the
various presidencies ; self-elected councils and a Royal Com-
mission, as he had already mentioned, to be sent out to India
for inquiry. They wished their council to be represented
by individuals not altogether connected ,6 ith the Govern-
ment, but that one member at least for each presidency
should be returned unconnected with Government affairs.
The noble marquis called upon their lordships to give tit-

ryots he believed extreme views had been taken by news-
paper writers and others on both sides. He did not wish to
follow their example. There was as much variety among
planters as among other classes. Some of them were gentle-
men of property, others were speculators carry.- g out their
projects on money borrowed at high interest, or the agents
of such persons. Of course, under those persons the ryots
were great sufferers. He would say let tti re be justice to
both parties. That was the first thing re 1 i:red, and next to
\
that was confidence. These could be obtained by the ap-
pointment of circuit judges, in whose decisions, as they had
no local connections, the people would have confidence. He
also thought protectors should be appointed, under the con-
trol of the Government, and that their business would be
to watch over the interests of the ryots, and, as far as pos-
sible, reconcile differences. With respect to Sir C. Tre-
velyan it was impossible to overvalue his services. No
man was ever sent to India so qualified by his ante-
cedents to perform the duties assigned to him. He
went out at that period of life when a man is likely
to form attachments with the people ; and from his
knowledge of the country and regard for the people, no
man was more qualified to perform the functions of go-
vernor. He first distinguished himself by investigating im-
portant matters for the information of the Government.
Without regard to his own interest he risked everything
for the public service, and seeing a great danger coming
upon the people committed to his charge, he, at every
risk to himself, endeavoured to stay the pestilence. What-
ever we might think of official irregularity, it vas impos-
sible not to honour the feelings of the man.. (Hear, hear.)
To the last moment of his life he had reason to be satisfied
with the great personal sacrifices he had made, and the
danger was in not taking his advice. Had Sir Charles in-
structed the representative of his presidency at the Legis-
lative Council to have read to the Council his minutes, they
could then have been published in every newspaper in Cal-
cutta, according to law, and he would have avoided falling
into the error which had been imputed to him. He had no
personal acquaintance with Sir C. Trevelyan, but from his
knowledge of him in his official capacity, he entertained a
high opinion of his abilities, and had the highest respect for
his talents, and this last act of his had raised him still
higher in his (the Earl of Ellenborough's) opinion.
The Duke of ARGYLL said the difficulty as regarded
the ryots was, that when advances were made to them they
rarely escaped from the consequences. The subject had at
present seriously engaged the attention of the Indian Go-
vernment, and a commission had been appointed to inquire
into and report upon all matters connected with the culti-
vation of indigo in Bengal. He trusted that when the re-
' port of the commission was received, they would be able in
this country and in India to see how the difficulty could be
met. As regarded the Legislative Councils, he admitted
they had proved a failure, and that their constitutions re-
quired to be revised. The time had not arrived for giving
representative assemblies to India% but he thought the in-
troduction of a few natives into the Legislative, Councils
would give great satisfaction, and that before any measure
was passed by the Supreme Council, they should give the
natives an opportunity of expressing their opinions upon it
(Hear.) With reference to Sir C. Trevelyan, he (the Duke
of Argyll) had a great respect for him, but he differed with
the noble earl opposite in the opinion he expressed as to his
last act being one which entitled him to approbation. There
was an absolute necessity for upholding the Government
of India, and of looking to due subordination in all the offi-
cials to the acts of the Supreme Government. (Hear.)
Lord LYVEDEN said as they had not as yet received
copies of the bills presented to the Supreme Legislative
Council, they were not in a condition to be able to form an
opinion regarding them. As to the recel of Sir C. Tre-
velyan, he could only express his regret that it had been
deemed necessary; but he did not see how the Government
could have avoided that step.
After a few words in explanation from the Earl of
EI4,BNBOROUGH, the motion was agreed to.
Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY presented a petition
from the merchants, traders, and other inhabitants of Cal-
cutta, agreed to at a public meeting, presided over by the
sheriff. The petition expressed the regret of the meeting at
the state of the finances in India, and it prayed, among
other things, a rel., ision of the constitution of the legislative
councils, and that the attention of the Government should
bo directed to the further construction of railroads as an
importantmeans of developing the vast resources of India.
If the members of the Madras Council had only communi-
cated their views on those subjects to Sir C. Trevelyan, and
if he had with them discussed the matters to which he had
referred in the very minute which he had published, the
embarrassments that resulted might have been avoided.
The noble lord concluded by presenting the petition, in the
prayer of which he concurred.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said a few words in
reply, and the subject dropped.
PARLIAMENTARY CITIES AND BOROUGHS IN
ENGLAND AND WALES.

Lord LLA.NOVER moved for a return, setting forth in
columns-1, the name of every Parliamentary city and
borlough in England and Wales ; 2, the number of tene-
ments rated to the relief of the poor at £8 and under £9 ;
3, at £9 and under £10; 4, at £lO and upwards; b, the
total a 0,0, A t number of electors on
the register; 7, the per centage that the number of elec-
tors bears to the numbers given in column 5; 8, the
number of tenements rated as above at £4 and under £5 ; 9,
at £5 and under £6 ; £lO, at £6 and under £7 ; 11, at £7
and under £8 ; 12, the total of columns 8,9, 10 and 11 ; 13,
the numbers that might be placed upon the register if the
same per centage is to be taken as shown in column 7 ; 11,
the numbers in columns 6 and 13 added. The cities and
boroughs to be placed in alphabetical order, and the cities of
London and Westminster, and the boroughs of Marylebone,
Tower Hamlets, Finsbury, Lambeth, and Southwark to be
given separately. The totals of each of the columns also to
be given.—Agreed to.
HARBOURS, DOCKS, &c.
Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY moved that the Board
of Trade do present to their lordships' house reports upon
the several private bills relating to harbours, docks, navi-
gations, railways, &c., of the present session.
Their lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(YESTERDAY,
The SPEAKER took the chair at four o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.

The following bills were considered and ordered for third
reading :—The Manchester and Buxton Road, the Dorset
Central Railway (Extension of Time, &c.), and the North
and South Lanarkshire Roads.
PETITIONS.

Several petitions were presented against the Savings
Banks Bill, from various parts of Ireland •in favour of
Tenant Right Compensation, from certain temperance so-
cieties and other bodies against the Wine Licenses Bill,
praying for withholding Government grants to Schools of
Art where designs are made from naked female models.
ROYAL COMMISSION.

The Usher of the Black Rod summoned the Speaker and
members to the bar of the House of Lords to hear the
Royal assent given by commission to different bills, for
which see Lords' report.
PARLIAMENTARY CITIES AND BOROUGHS.
Sir W. MILES moved for an address for a return
setting forth, in columns—the names of every parlia-
mentary city or borough in England and Wales ; the
rateable value of such city or borough at Lady-day
185 G; the gross estimated rental at Lady day 185 G;
the annual value of property assessed under schedule A,
exclusive of railways and canals ; the annual value of pro-
perty assessed under schedule A, including railways and
canals ; the cities and boroughs to be placed in alphabetical
order, and the total of each column to be given; and the
cities of London and Westminster, and the Metropolitan
Boroughs of Marylebone, Finsbury, the Tower Hamlets,
Lambeth, and Southwark to be given separately.—Ordered.
PAROCIIIAL CONSTABLES.

Mr. DEEDES asked the Secretary of State for the
Home Department whether it was the intention of the
Government to bring in any measure this session to repeal
the Acts relating to the appointment and payment of paro-
chial constables, viz, 5 and 6 Vic. c. 109 ; 13 Vie. c. 20 ;
and part of 7 and S Vic. c. 52.
Sir G. C. LEWIS said that no doubt the alterations
that had taken place rendered it necessary that there should
be a change in the laws passed some time ago. It was very
desirable that the laws in question should be repealed, and
as soon as he had obtained the necessary information on
the subject it was his intention to bring in a bill to meet
the requirements of the case.
DRAWBRIDGES IN DUBLIN.

Sir E. GROG AN asked the Chief Secretary for
,Ireland
if he could say when the repairs of the drawbridged on the
plays in Dublin would be completed, and if he had any
objection to lay ascopy of the contract entered into by the
Board of Works for such repairs upon the table of the house?
Mr. CARDWELL said that he had no objection to lay
the document alluded to on the table of the house.
LICENSES.

Mr. DUTTON asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
whether the wholesale wine license at £lO 108. conferred
upon the holder the power of selling by retail, without the
necessity of taking an additional retail license ?
Sir F. KELLY also asked a question on the same sub-
ject.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it was
never the intention of the revenue department to deprive
the holders of 10 guinea licenses of the privileges which
they were entitled to under the present law. On making
inquiry of the authorities of the revenue he was informed
that there was no intention to prevent persons hold-
ing such licenses selling a single bottle of wine by retail,
teed such an intention had never been entertained by the
Government.
DISTRIBUTION OF POWER—SOUTHERN
ITALY.
In reply to Mr. GRIFFITHS,
Lord J. RUSSELL said there was no ground for the state-
ment which appeared in the Inde'pendance Beige, to the effect
tluit the French Government had intimated to Lord Cowley
that, in the case of the occurrence of contingencies in refe-
rence to the present distribution of power in Southern Italy,
France would feel it her duty to claim further territorial
compensation.
THE PORTE.
4fr. J. LOCKE inquired whether her Majesty's Govern-
ment were in possession of any information to the effect
thrit Russia had concentrated a considerable army on the
Pritth, and that the Ottoman Government had assembled

---
a corps d'-
arntee at Widdin; also whether her Majesty's
Government had been advised that Prince Gortchakoff
had assembled the representa ives of all the Powers
except Turkey, and had stated that the condition cf Chris-
tians in the Turkish dominions was every day becoming
more insupportable, and that it was hoped by Government
to obtain the concurrence of other powers, and would make
a strong remonstrance to Turkey on the subject.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that no intelligence had been
received in reference to the first question. As regarded the
second matter a despatch had been received from the
British ambassador at Paris stating that M. Thouvenel had
announced it was the intention of the French Government
that the action in respect to the question should be that
of the five great Powers of Europe.
ARMY ESTIMATES.

In reply to Mr. DISRAELI,
Lord PALMERSTON said that the army estimates
would not be brought forward on Thursday after 11 o'clock
at night.

ordered of the number of defective gunboats and the names

of the builders. The hon. and gallant officer was clearly
out of order in going into the state of the navy generally.
Sir C. NAPIER had thought it was as well to take that
opportunity of making a few observations on the general
subject ; but as the Speaker ruled he was out of order he
would content himself with submitting the motion in the

terms stated..
Mr. BENTINCK seconded the motion.
Lord C. PAGET hoped the gallant officer would not sup-
pose that the Admiralty had any wish to screen any parties
who had not performed their tontracts, or come short in
their duty to the Government. So far from wishing to do

so, before even the eircureStance was made known in that

house, or made public in the newspaper s, they had taken
measures to ascertedn how far they had the power of pro-
secuting such contractors as they thought had neglected to
perform the conditions of their contracts. (Hear, hear.)
The hon. and gallant admiral asked him to mention the
names of the gunboats which had been built with the short
bolts, and the names of the builders. He should have no
difficulty in. giving that information, nor would the Admi-
ralty desire to withhold it,were And that they felt it would
be manifestly unfair to all parties that the names should be
given when the subject waa, to use the legal term, sub
judice. They (the Admiralty) were taking the opinion of
the law officers of the Crown as to the propriety of prosecut-
ing certain of those parties, and he could not give their
names without prejudicing the public against them, and
perhaps unfairly influencing the minds of those who would
have to try the case. He was not prepared to say that they
would after all be in a condition to prosecute, but whether
or not he considered that it would be some time before a
legal case would be complete, the opinion of the law officers
obtained, and all the steps preliminary to a legal inquiry
before the ordinary tribunals taken. And as no man in this
country was to be held guilty before he was tried and con-
victed, he was not disposed to prejudge those persons by
making their names public. There could be no objection to
the second part of the motion, the return of the number of
gunboats fit for service so far as it could be ascertained, but
it should be bcrne in mind that the defects could only be
ascertained by close examination, and as many of the
gunboats were now laid up in ordinary, it would
scarcely do to take the men from the other work of the
doCkyards to haul these boats up and examine them.
(Hear, hear.) Should the opinion of the law officers be
that there was no case in law against the contractors, the
Government would not object to any other mode of inquiry
the house might think it right to institute. (Hear, hear.)
Lord LOVAINE—AII that Ras required was the plain
simple fact what gunboats there were fit for service, in
what boats the defect of construction had been found, and
what were the names of the builders of those defective
boats. There was no wish to prejudice the decision of the
courts of law, or to dictate to the Government whether they
should prosecute or not.
Mr. BEN TINCK said there was no intention of charging
the contractors with "gaud. What they wanted to know
was the names of the gunboats that were found to have
short bolts in them, and the names of the contractors who
built them; in order that the house and the country might
know where the negligence, by which the lives of hundreds
of men might be endangered, existed. He could not see
how information of that kind could prejudice any future
legal proceedings. His noble friend indicated that there
might be no prosecution at all. That, therefore, was a rea-
son for getting the information now. It appeared that the
information was given elsewhere, but they ought to have it
on official authority. He was afraid the whole of the gun-
boats were thorougbly rotten, owing to the haste with
which they were built and the kind of materials with which
they were constructed. It was notorious that these boats
were in a bad state. The fact was known to the late Go-
vernment and to the House of Commons as well as to the
present Government. But if so, why was the survey of
these boats delayed till the present time ? (Hear.) The
Board of Admiralty professed to be anxious to keep up the
navy in an efficient state, yet they dismissed men from th e
dockyards, and now his noble friend told them that there
was a deficiency of hands. Owing to this circumstance the
vessels which at first might have been easily repaired wore
now perfectly rotten. This appeared to him to be penny
wise and pound foolish, and made him doubt the professions
that were made respecting the efficiency of the navy.
Mr. WHITBREAD reminded the house that there were
10 of these boats at llaslar which were not reported upon
as yet. It appeared to him that the motion, therefore, was
premature. It would be unfair to give the names of the
contractors who built these particular boats whilst the
names of others were withheld, who for aught they knew
might be equally guilty. The gallant officer and the hon.
gentleman said they only wanted facts, but they could not
give the facts without raising a storm of indignation
throughout the country, which while the matter was still
under consideration would be contrary tc that spirit of fair
play which characterised their proceedings. (Hear, hear.)
If the gallant officer waited for ten days or a fortnight, he
would have that information which if given now would
have an appearance of vindictive hostility.
Mr. TAYLOR thought that the noble lord the Secretary
of the Admiralty had given a sufficient reply to the gallant
admiral. As a shipowner himself he knew that a perfect
supervision over the contractor was a matter of great diffi-
culty. (near, neat.)
Sir M. SEYMOUR said that the gunboats under him an-
swered extremely well. It appeared to him that their de-
fect was in the caulking, a circumstance which was com-
mon in contract ships. The character of the timber seemed
to have been the original sin; but it was very difficult to
find timber of the right kind in a time of pressure. Ho be-
lieved that salt e,vater seasoned Cutter was used in France,
and that it had been found to answer very well. He recom-
mended the Government to make experiments with timber
seasoned in salt water in this country.
Mr. W. EWART hoped that the Government would
take precautions for the future, by insisting on a vigilant
and thorough inspection.
Lord PALMERSTON hoped, as this was a question of
time, and of very short time, and not a question of grant-
ing or refusing the information asked for, that his hon.
and gallant friend would not press his motion. (Hear,
hear.) His noble friend (Lord C. Paget) stated that it
was the opinion of the law officers of the Crown that
the case of those persons whom it was now their in-
tention to prosecute would be prejtdiced if the
returns asked for indicated that they were guilty of fraud
or negligence in the construction of these vessels.
Whether they were so guilty or not would be the subject of
investigation by the prosecution now intended to be made.
If his hon. and gallant friend would only wait for ten days
or a fortnight, in order to see whether a prosecution could
be instituted or not, the information he now sought for
would, in case a prosecution were instituted, be more ample
and complete than any which could be given in the return
he asked for ; and if it was found that a prosecution co-10d
not be instituted• —that no legal grounds for a prosecution
existed—then, indeed, his hon. and gallant friend would
have good ground for requiring all the information that
could properly be given, and more ample information could
then be given, because there were sixteen boats which were
not yet examined, but which were about being examined.
To grant the return now might prejudice the case of some
contractors, and might appear to exempt others who might
be equally blameable with those who were guilty. (Hear.)
Sir F. SMITH said that a distinction should be made
between damage which appeared to be the result of bad
workmanship and damage which was the result of fair wear.
Sir C. NAP I Elt said the noble lord the Secretary of the
Admiralty and the hon. gentleman one of the Lords of the
Admiralty appeared to give a very lame excuse, and there-
fore the noble lord came to the rescue. Ile did not accuse
the contractors of fraud ; he guarded himself most dis-
tinctly against that. What he asked for was the names of
the contractors of the vessels in which the bad bolts were
found. He thought the house and the country ought to
have that information. As to the storm being raised
against them in the country, the sooner it was raised the
better, if it was true that they had driven such bolts into
the gun-vessels. (Hear.) He (the gallant admiral) would
take the advice of the noble lord, but he was by no means
satisfied. He had not done with the matter, and in a short
time he should bring it on again; for he would never re-
main quiet until he had exposed to just reprehension the
persons who had been the means of sending 400 or 500
sailors to sea, and expos ng them to possible destruction
within 24 hours after they had left port. (Hear.)
The motion was then withdrawn.
FISHERIES (IRELAND).

Colonel DUNNE moved fur copies of any report or cor-
respondence that had taken place between the Commis-
sioners of Irish Fisheries and the Irish Government on the
subject of the consolidaton of the Fishery Acts, together
with the memorial to the Lord-Lieutenant from a meeting
of the different boards of conservators of fishery districts in
Ireland.
Mr. CARDWELL stated that he hadpropared a consoli-
dation bill, but considering the pressure of more important
business he was not able to say whether he should deem it
advisable to introduce it this session.
The return was ordered.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT ACT (1858).

Leave was given to bring in a bill to confirm certain pro.
visional orders under this act, and for other purposes in re
lation thereto.

TRAMWAYS (SCOTLAND).
Sir E. COLEBROOIE obtained leave to bring in a bil
to provide for tho formation of tramways in turnpike am
statute labour roads in Scotland.
THE LATE PRIZE FIGHT.

Lord LOVAINE, in moving an address for copy of all
correspondence betweez. the Home-office and the directors
of the South-Eastern Railway Company, in the year
1859-60, relating to the conveyance of persons intending to
commit a breach of the law, observed that he was not going
to make a speech on the merits or demerits of prize-fight-
ing. On a recent occasion an exhibition of that kind, at no
great distance from the metropolis, was declared—rather
reluctantly and apologetically, ho must say—but it was de-
clared by the Secretary of State for the Home Department
to be illegal ; and it cor,sequently followed that those who
attended them or promoted them were accessories before the
fact, and were Rs guilty as the principals. (Hear, hear.)
This instance was not the first on which complaints had
been made against the conduct of the South-Eastern Com-
pany. That company Itad been entrusted, as everybody
knew, with a very largeportion—he might almost say, with
a monopoly—of the trace in the counties over which their
lines ran; and they had been warned of the illegality of aid-

ing and abetting prize fights by himself, when he was a

member of the late Government. It was then understood

hat nothing of the sort should again take place. Last year

a letter was sent to them by the Surrey bench of magis-
trates, expressing their regret that the company should have

afforded facilities for such disgraceful exhibitions , and the
board replied tothe effect that the arrangemlnts would b.
made by the officials of the company without consulting
them, but that they had given orders which would pre-
vent, as far as they could, anything of the kind in fu-
ture. So far from that, however, they had actu-
ally allowed two special trains to go down their
line on the morning of the late fight, and to
stop at every station where there might be fields suitable
for the occasion. At every station in Surrey they found
policemen waiting for them, and they were obliged to go
on into Hampshire; and there being at one station in that
county no police, the fight took place. He was informed by
the depositions of the constabulary, that an officer of the
company, Mr. "Knight, a superintendent of traffic at Lon-
don-bridge, was on the engine directing the movements of
one of the trains; and that the use of the telegraph was
denied to the authorities while the fight was going on.

Under these circumstances he (the noble lord) submitted
that the complicity of the company was clearly established.
As to whether it was possible to bring the law to bear on
the directors, it *Fuld not be right, as he perceived none of

the law officers of the crown, present, to ask the opinion of
the government ;.but he hoped the house would not let
persons to whom they had given great powers wield those'
powers in defiance of the law. (Hear, hear.) Few could
form an adequate idea of the inconvenience which arose
from those special trains, from which 2,000 or 3,000 of the
worst ruffians in London were in a moment launched upon
a quiet neighbourhood. (Hear, hear.) He was happy to
quote the example of the 'South Western Company as one
that had entirely given up the practice, and that had re-
cently refused to grant trains for any such purpose. (Hear,
hear.) They all knew that the executive of the country
was by noi means particularly strong, and that it was very
rarely inclined to exert itself when it was opposed by num-
bers. He might refer, for instance, to the case of St.
George's-in-the-East, where a mob of boys and ruffians
had bern allowed for the last three months to disturb un-
checked the devotions of the congregation. (Hear, hoes.)
The house would, however, concur with him in asking for
information which would show whether 'the government
had used its best efforts to enforce the law, and whether
anything could be done in order to put a stop to those
brutal displays. (Hear, hear.)
• Viscount PALMERSTON—I do not intend to offer any
objection to the motion, and I will only just enter a sort of
protest against that exaggeration—(hear, hear)—in which
the noble lord has indulged. He has attacked this railway
company for having brought down 2,000 or 3,000 ruffians
and launched them in a moment upon a quiet neighbourhood.
One would have imagined from his description that these
persons were a set of banditti—(laughter)—robbing and
p:undering, and seeking to ravish the country—murdering
persons, burning houses, and committing every sort of
atrocity. (Hear, hear.) Technically, a fight between two
persons, though not fighting from any feeling of enmity, is
a breach of. the peace, and, being a breach of the peace, it
is clearly an act which is subject to prosecution. But the
persons who go to those places, though they may be
open to a charge of breach of the peace, are harmless and
commit no breach of the peace ; they stay looking at what
passes, which are exhibitions of manly courage, characteris-
tic of the qualities of the people of this country. (Hear,
hear.) It vas only the other day a French newspaper,
speaking of this fight, described it as a typo of the national
character—endurance and patience under suffering, and
rather holding it up as a specimen of the admirable quali-
ties of the British race. (Hear, hear.) However, that is a
matter of opinion ; but setting aside the legal technicalities
of the case,-I do not see that any number of persons who
assemble to witness a prize-fight aro more guilty of a breach
of the peace than persons who go to witness a balloon ascent.
(Laughter.) They go to see a sight, and, that over, they
return without having done harm to anybody ; and as to the
danger to those persons who engage in those fights, I con-
sider the danger to those who go up in a balloon is much
greater. (A laugh.) Therefore, I think there should be a
medium in all things and moderation in all opinions; and
though it mey be desirable to prevent those fights, yet I do
not think any advantage is to be gained, or good to the
morals of the people is to be promoted, by the exaggerations
of the noble lord. At the same time the motion is one to
which I cannot see any objection, and I shall not therefore
refuse to produce the correspondence. (Cheers.)
Lord LOYAINE said the noble lord was so much in fa-
vour of prize-fighting he should not be surprised if he
brought in a bill to legalise it. The noble lord had very
skilfully put the discussion on the merits of prize-fighting,
whereof he (Lord Lovaine) had specially guarded himself
against saying one word. What he said was that the rail-
ways should not bring down 2,000 or 3,000 ruffians. He
granted that all those who attended the late fight were not
of that description ; but if the noble lord had been, as he
(Lord Lovaine) had been, a passenger in that train—(loud
laughter)—he was merely a casual traveller—he was sure
that the proceedings of the passengers were not such as
would have pleased him, as they certainly did not give him
(T.nra T.ovainctl any satisfaction. If they chose to oppose
those things let them do so; but do not let them call on ma-;
gistrates to preserve the peace, while in that house they
were thx,pwing the whole weight •f their authority into the
scale to aid and abet those who break the laws.
Mr. V. SCULLY didnot think it right to let it go abroad
that the noble lord (Lord Lovaine) stood alone in that house
in his condemnation of those prize-fights. He, on his own
part, must enter his protest against them ; but he thought
the noble lord who brought forward this motion should fly
at higher game. The Ministers of the Crown, instead of
putting down this prize-fighting, lent every encouragement
to it. They had the Home Secrerary, whose peculiar busi-
ness it was to put down these prize-fights, defending them;
and now they had the noble lord at the bead of the Govern-
ment speaking of them only as playful exhibitions of the
animated nature of the British lion. (A laugh.) But he
thought it was the duty of the Government to enforce the
law, even if it were a bad law. He remembered that in his
school days the boys who were the most anxious to set the
other boys fighting were generally considered the greatest
cowards in the school.
Mr. W. EWART was an enemy to prize-fighting, but
he begged to be understood he did not object to fighting
with the gloves—(a laugh)—as a good sort of exercise;
neither did he object to a person learning the art of self-
defence. But he flrew a great distinction between these
practices and going out in the way of prize-fighting. He
drew the same distinction between these practices and
two men fighting ;with the ordinary foils, and two other men
going out-with leaded foils. The noble lord had said there
was a panegyric in a French newspaper on this late fight .
The paper which the noble lord alluded to was the Journal
des Debuts. That paper did not justify prizefighting ;
it only alluded to it as an instance of the vigour and: en-
durance of the old English race ; but another French news-
papel, the Sfeck, spoke of the fight in terms of strong con-
demnation. He hoped, however, they should now hear no
more of this fight—(hear)—and these exhibitions would for
the future be entirely prevented.
Mr. CLLVE did not intend to offer a single remark on the
main question; but in justice to the South-Eastern Rail-
way Company he must say that the directors of that com-
pany had entered into an engagement that they never
would give a special train to any parties to stop between
stations, and they affirmed that on. We particular occasion
in question they had no knowledge- of the objects or inten-
tions of the parties.
Sir W. JOLLIFFE was not very squeamish about prize-
fighting ; but the question was whether they were not
broaches of the peace, and magistrates ought to know what
would be their position if they took part in endeavouring
to keep the -peace on these occasions. (Hear, hear.) He
happened to live on the South-Eastern line, and was
also a magistrate for the county, of Surrey. One or two
of those prize-fights had taken place in his Own imme-
diate neighbourhood, and one or two of his brother magis-.
trates ran considerable risk of personal danger in endea-
vouring to prevent them. But what would be said when
those proceedings were sanctioned by the voice of the Go-
vernment in that house ? He must say he was very much
astonished at the tone of the noble lord (Lord PaAverston)
on this subject ; and ho wished to place before the house
the position himself and his brother magistrates would be
in if they thought it to be their duty to suppress those
breaches of the peace while they were sanctioned by the
Executive Government.
Lord PALMERSTON explained that he had not said
r rize-fights wore not breaches of the peace. What he pro-
tested against was the exaggerated character of the noble
lord's charges against this particular fight. '
Col. DICKSON said, with reference to the remarks of
the hon. member for Cork (Mr. Scully), he could not under-
stand an Irishman objecting to fighting. (A laugh.) He
considered the noble lord (Lord Palmerston) had not laid
himself open to these attacks. He would say for the noble
lord, that if he had one attribute more than another which
endeared him to his fellow countrymen, it was his
thoroughly English character and love for all manly sports.
(Hear, hear.) He (Colonel Dickson) did not stand up for
prize-fighting ; but he said that those two men had shown
qualities, our own man in particular—(laughter)—he said
so advisedly, because he was disabled at the commencement
of the contest—he said he had exhibited qualities which
entitled him to higher honours than many other men had
received who did, not so well deserve them. But he asked
how were they to give power to railway directors to refuse
trains as they pleased ? He thought the law as it stood at
present was-perfectly well laid down; and one of the first
duties of a magistrate was to know when to act and when
it was advisable to shut his eyes. (Hear, and a laugh.)
Mr. PAULL confessed he thought it was a most unfortu-
nate thing—whether it was in the power of the Government
to suppress those prize-fights or not—that they should have
from men in the high positions of chief Minister of the
Criown and the Home Secretary, if not a sanction, an en-
couragement or palliation of these fights. He thought it
was an unfortunate thing if when 2,000 or 3,000 ruffians
collected together in a field for this purpose the authorities
could not colleet police enough to disperse them.
The motion was then agreed to and the subject dropped.
TENURE AND IMPROVEMENT OF LAND
(IRELAND) BILL.
On the motion for the second reading of this bill,
Sir JOHN WALSH moved as an amendment that the
bill be read a second time that day six months, It was a