The Sun.
London, England, 1860-06-02 00:00:00

THE SUN, w LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, JUNE 2, 1860,

the subject. He wished also to call the noble lord's atten-
tion to a subject which was of not less importance, and that
was the course which was said to have been pursued, or
which was about to be pursued, by the French Government
with reference to the same question. He knew he was tread-.
ing on delicate ground, and should not discuss the question
of whether the communication of Prince Gortschakoff had
been the result of an understanding between the Govern-
ments of France and Russia; he could not forget, however,
that not long ago a statement was made by the Minister for
Foreign Affairs at St. Petersburg to the effect that it was
possible written communications might subsist between the
two Governments, and that all he would undertake to say
was that English interests were not menaced by any arrange-
ments that might be in contemplation. It was, therefore, of
great consevence that they should know also the course
the French Government had pursued or was pursuing. He
should be glad to know whether there had been any corre-
spondence, and of what nature, with the French Govern-
ment. Some intimation had been given when the hon.
member for Southwark asked his question that the French
Minister for Foreign Affairs had expressed his opinion that
if any representation were made to the Turkish Govern-
ment it should be made by the five Powers, and not by
Russia alone, as if by the latter it would encourage the im-
pression that that empire was the sole protectress of the
Christians in Turkey. He (Mr. Fitzgerald) was of opinion
that such interference on the part of the five Powers would
be quite as contrary to the letter and spirit of the treaty of
peace as that to which he had in the first instance alluded.
Another question he had to ask was whether any commu-
nication on the subject had been made to the courts of
Austria and Prussia, and if so, whether the noble lord could
state to the house what were the views of the two Govern-
ments respecting it. The last and most important question
he had to ask was what answer the noble lord had thought
fit to make respecting those propositions to the Russian or
the French Government. He did not wish to press his
questions if their answers were likely to be attended with
public inconvenience, but he thought that on two points the
noble lord ought to express a decided opinion. One was that
the course suggested of a representation by the five Powers
to Turkey with reference to the Christian subjects of the
latter, was contrary to the letter and spirit of the treaty of
peace ; and the other referred to a point which he should
take leave to read to the house. It was said that a proposi-
tion had been made that this question should be inquired
into by the five Powers through the intervention of their
consular agents in the Turkish empire. Now, he had been
informed by persons whose knowledge and experience of
the East gave every weight to their opinion, that such a
step would be a most dangerous course of policy. It could
not be denied but that if encouragement were thus given
to the consular agents to mix themselves up in the affairs
of the Turkish empire, great injury must result to
the prestige of the Turkish authorities and their power
of regulating the internal affairs of the empire. He be-
lieved that such was the opinion of our ambassador at Con-
stantinople, and that he strongly objected to any power being
given to the consuls to inquire into the mode in which
the treaty stipulations had been carried out with reference
to the Christian population. Before he sat down—(a laugh)
—there was one other point to which he wished to call at-
tention. There was, he had no doubt, in the Foreign-office
a despatch from Mr. Addison, the Charge d'Affaires at
Constantinople, or from Sir Henry Buiwer, with reference
to the " hat." In that despatch it was explained to what
extent the " hat" had been carried out, and how any more
stringent exeoution of it might be more injurious to the
Christian population of Turkey than their present position.
That despatch, he believed, also pointed out the difficulty
the Turkish Government had in fulfilling their engage-
ments. He should like to know whether the noble lord
could lay that despatch on the table.
Lord J. RtiSSELL—I will now endeavour to answer the
various questions—certainly very various—which have
been addressed to me this evening respecting our foreign
affairs, and if I should omit any of them which have been
asked by the hon. gentleman who has just sat down, I trust
he will remind me of the omission. The first question re-
lated to the affairs of Persia, and was asked by the hon. and
learned member for Poole, and with it was connected that
which was subsequently asked by the hon. member for
Liskeard. Now, in the first place, the story which the
hon. and learned member for Poole has heard, namely,
that there were differences of opinion respecting the
policy to be pursued in Persia between her Majesty's Go-
vernment and Sir H. Rawlinson, and that the latter had in
consequence been recalled, is not correct. Sir H. Rawlin-
son is an exceedingly able man, extremely well acquainted
with the East, and his influence with Persia has been con-
siderable. His policy was entirely approved of by her Ma-
jesty's Government, and I was in hopes that he would have
continued his functions in Persia as Minister. But the
cause of his return has been that to which my hon. friend
the member for Liskeard has alluded. My noble friend at
the head of the Government, on finding that the affairs of
Persia had been attended to by the Secretary of State for
India, inquired of the Secretary for India and myself what
we thought of the arrangement, to which we both replied
that we would abide by his judgment, either to continue or
to change the arrangement. My noble friend having taken
some time for consideration, said he thought that the chief
part of our business with Persia—although some might be
connected with India—was to settle and carry on the rela
tions between Persia and this country, and between Persia
and Russia. That certainly is true, for questions do arise
botwccu rage and this country, and between Persia and
Russia'; and whenever there is a difference between the
two latter, the English Minister is asked his opinion, and
when there is a difference between England and Persia, the
Russian Minister is referred to. My noble friend, therefore,
came to the conclusion that it was better the Persian mis-
sion should again be under the control of the Foreign-office.
I accepted the responsibility, and at the same time hoped
that Sir H. Rawlinson would have remained in office. Not
long after, however, intelligence that he was about to re-
sign was received in a private letter addressed to a gentleman
in the Foreign-office, as also Sir H. Rawlinson's reason,
which I do not think I should act fairly by concealing. In
the Indian-office there was a considerable latitude for mak•.
ing presents, a thing which never was the custom of the
Foreign-office. Shortly after Sir H. Rawlinson sent me
a private letter stating that he intended to resign, and,
about the same time his formal resignation was received. I
did not think it desirable that he should remain in Persia
after he had sent in his resignation, as it might damage his
influence, and I therefore advised her Majesty to accept his
resignation, and to appoint a gentleman whom I had never
seen, and with whom I had no acquaintance, but who had
long been in the diplomatic service at Constantinople, and
from whom I had seen several able despatches and reports
of missions. I mean Mr. Alison, the present Minister at
the Persian Court. The hon. gentleman will, therefore,
see that Sir Henry Rawlinson has not been recalled, but
that he sent in his own resignation, for reasons satisfactory
to his own mind. (Hear, hear.) With regard to our
policy in respect to Persia, it is very soon told, and has
none of that character which the hon. gentleman
attributed to it. I stated to the Persiari Envoy, and
also to Sir Henry Rawlinson and Mr. Alison, that our
policy was to maintain the integrity and independence
of Persia, but at the same time to recommend her not to
make aggressions upon other independent states, and the
Persian Envoy here assented to that. Therj is no ques-
tion of coercion about it. Our interest is merely to main-
tain the authority of the government of Persia, and to give
them such advice, when asked, as might conduce to the
maintenance of peace. There is one point I may mention
in which our opinions may be peculiar, and that is, that
there is naturally, and there has been from time to lime
sort of rivalry between England and Russia in Persia
namely, that those who are for the support of Great Bri-
tain always have some story of oppression on the part of
Russia, and those in favour of the Russian interest are just
as busy in going to the ministers and informing them that
Great Britain is pushing herself forward. I have thought
it best to discourage this rivalry—(hear, hear)—arid when
I have had occasion to write to St. Petersburg, or to speak
to the Russian minister here, I have always said that, pro-
vided we found Russia maintaining the independence of
Persia, we were quite willing to join with her in giving
the same advice. Our object was only to maintain tha

government which was sometimes weak and often threat-
ened, and we asked Russia to act in the same spirit. The
answers we have received from Russia have tended to show
the same disposition, and so far from desiring to drive Per-
sia into a corner, we hope the course of the Persian govern-
ment will in future be more equable than it has hitherto
.been. (Hear, hear.) The next question relates to China.
With regard to the despatches of the Governor of Hong
Kong, I am informed by the Under Secretary of State for
the Colonial Department that he has not received any de-
spatch with respect to the case of murder referred to by the
hon. gentleman who has asked tho question. With regard
to the appointment of inspectors, the hon. member for
Glasgow rather supposed I had given a more distinct and

decided approval to that than I intended to give. It is
certainly an anomalous system that a body of foreigners
should be put i , office as collectors of the revenue of China.
But it was said by Lord Elgin and by others that it would
give'confldence to the merchants, because it was well known
there was a great deal of bribery among the Chinese, and
the adoption of such a course would put an end to many
abuses. The act itself has not been performed by the
Foreign-office, but I think it is a system which ought to be
tried. (Hear, hear.) An hon. friend of mine has asked
me some questions with regard to Sicily. He must be aware
that the pamphlet just published is ono to which we can
give no authority. It r6sts entirely on the responsibility of
the gentleman who has placed his name to it. But I am
sorry to say there are in the ,Foreign-office reports of our
consuls—two or three in 1857 and one that I hold in my
hand of the 24th of July, 1859—and there are some other
despatches from our consuls giving an account of cruelties

and even of tortures perpetrated by the police of Sicily. It
is a very painful subject, and I do not want to go through
the details, but there are accounts given of men who came

of themselves to our consuls and said that they had had
their wrists fastened together, and had been gagged with an

instrument called the cap of silence; that they had suffered
various other inflictions which certainly belong properly to
the description of torture, and I have no doubt those inflic-
tions, together with other sufferings of the people of Sicily,
have brought Sicily to the state in which she now is, and
which no one who knows what the Government of the King
of the Two Sicilies has been for some time past can be at
all surprised at, (Cheers.) L now come to the very im-

portant question which was asked by the hon, gentleman
opposite. I will tell him as shortly as I can, and at the same
time endeavour to give him a complete account of what has
taken place at St. Petersburg, and among the other Powers
with regard to the affairs of Turkey. The hon. member
has referred to what occurred at St. Petersburg in the be-
ginning of the month of May. It appears that at the end
of April, the Russian Minister of Foreign Affairs informed
the Turkish Ambassador that the accounts received from
the different Christian provinces under the Sultan, more
especially Bosnia, Roumelia, and Bulgaria, showed such
sufferings and such exasperations on the part of the Chris-
tion subjects of the l'orte, that if they should lead to in-
surrection and massacre, the Emperor of Russia could not
remain a tranquil spectator of such scenes. A few days
after this information, a despatch was written to Paris to
the same effect, and on May sth the Ministers of the five
Powers were assembled at the office of Prince Gortschakoff,
and the prince then made the statement I have just refer-
red to, that the state of the Christian provinces of Turkey
was such that if they should lead to insurrection and mas-
sacre the Emperor of Russia would not remain a tranquil
spectator. After a good deal of discussion three proposals
were drawn up by the French Ambassador, in presence o f
the meeting, and were agreed to so far as this, that the dif-
ferent Ministers said they would sold them to their respec-
tive courts. The first proposition was that the present state
of the Christian provinces of Turkey had become intole •
rable ; the second proposition was that an inquiry should be
made, and that such inquiry ought to be made by the offi-
cers of the Sultan, and that they should be assisted by the
consuls of the five Powers ; the third proposition of Prince
Gortschakoff was that, having failed in securing to the
Christian subjects of the Porte that security which was sup-
posed to have been obtained, it was necessary to have a new
organisation of thegovernment of those provinces. Nothing
could be more important than these different propositions.
After receiving them we said that with regard to the first
proposition, her Majesty's Government had not received
such accounts as entitled them to say that the present state
of those provinces was intolerable. The house is aware that
we can at no time speak with any great approbation of the
Government of the Sultan in the interior of his dominions.
We can hardly speak perhaps much more favourably of
that government than of the government of the King of the
Two Sicilies ; but at the same time we have no account that
has shown to us there has been that intolerable mismanage-
ment and oppression which the Government of Russia has
always laid particular stress upon with regard to the Chris-
tian subjects of the Porte. I have not only read carefully
the different reports received, but I have asked persons
coming from the provinces of Turkey, and who were en-
gaged in the service of her Majesty, and they have generally
said it was impossible to praise the administration of the
Turkish Government; but, with regard to any particular
oppression of the Christians, it must be owned that the
Turkish subjects of the Porte are quite as great sufferers
from the irregularity of the Government as the Christian
subjects are. With regard to the third point, as to the
new organisation of the provinces in question, we said it
was quite impossible, with reference to general principles
or to the terms of the treaty of Paris of 1856, to agree to
the principle of a new organisation. The house will re-
member that the 7th article in the treaty of Paris guaran-
tees and supports the integrity of the Turkish empire. The
Bth article declares that if at any time any dissension shall
arise between the Sublime Porte and any of the Powers
signing the treaty, which may threaten a disturbance of
peaceful relations, then the former shall not have recourse
to arms without endeavouring, with the aid of the other
Powers, to bring about a peaceful settlement of such dis-
turbance. The 9th article declares the contracting Powers
acknowledge the high importance of this communication,
and will give in no case any of the Powers a right to inter-
fere in the relations between the Sultan and his
subjects, or in the internal administration of his empire.
The treaty being so positive in that respect, nothing but
extreme urgency, such as an insurrection, and the deter-
mination of a foreign Power, ix spite of the treaty, to take
the part of the insurgents and make war on the Sultan,
would justify the other Powers of Europe in at all inter-
fering in the internal government of that country. But at
the same time after such a declaration as that made on the
part of so great an empire as Russia, and Russia having,
as we know, so much influence with the Christian subjects
of the Sultan—an influence which the Emperor of Russia
does not only not disavow, but which he is always boast-
ing they acknowledge—we did not think it prudent to
stand aloof and say we would not concern ourselves in such
a case, We therefore consulted with the other Powers,
and at the same time gave our own opinion that while we
could not give any consent to the first and third points, we
considered it might be proper to make an inquiry with
respect to the present state of the Christian provinces and
Government of the Sultan. The Austrian Government in
the same spirit said that their object was to maintain the
independence and integrity of Turkey, and at the same time
to procure by their influence and by that of the other powers
of Europe the removal of any grievance which might pro-
voke resistance or insurrection. The answer given by Prus-
sia was not very different—declaring that not having her-
self consuls and agents in Turkeyli she should require
further elucidation on the subject; and the Government of
France sent to us to know what was our opinion upon the
question. M. Thouvenel declared that from his knowledge
of Turkey he was aware great abuses and misgovernment
prevailed there. He thought, however, that remedies might
bo pointed uut which, at the same time that they provided
for the happiness of the subjects of the Sultan, would also
give greater strength to the Ottoman empire. The opinion
of M. Thouvenel, I think, must be.allowed to have its
weight with regard to any remedies which may be adopted.
At the same time he declared that he thought any inquiry
made ought to be made with the greatest regard to the
authority of the Sultan, and that the mode of inquiry ought
not to impair or shake that authority. Our opinion with
respect to that point was this. We said, if it appeared to the
Sultan that Christian consuls or agents might participate
in an inquiry, we should be ready to take that view of the
case, but that if the Sultan, on the other hand, thought
they could not participate without a diminution of his
authority, we were not ready to press a point of that kind
on an independent sovereign whose authority we desired to
I maintain. Sir llenry Bulwer, whose influence has always
been exerted not only with a wish to maintain the autho-
rity of the Sultan, and to improve the welfare of the people
of Turkey, but who has always in my opinion taken the
most judicious means for that purpose, and who by the
mode in which he has given his advice, has obtained great
influence with all the Turkish Ministers who have been in
power—(hear, hear)—Sir Henry Bulwer thought it was
advisable to have an inquiry, but to have it by means of the
Sultan's own officers. There has lately been a change in
the Turkish Government, and the Minister who formerly
held the office of Grand Vizier has been reinstated. The
French ambassador advised that the Grand Vizier should
himself visit Bosnia, Roumelia,_and Bulgaria, and have
full authority from the Sultan to punish those guilty of
outrages, and to establish such remedial measures as he
might think proper to meet the existing evils. In that
advice Sir Henry Bulwer and the Russian ambassador
agreed, and wa have hearlithis day that that measure has
been adopted. The Turkish ambassador has informed us
that the Sultan has willingly followed this advice, and that
the Grand Vizier will visit those provinces. I conclude
that as the Russian ambassador has given his consent to
that plan, Prince Gortschakoff is likely to assent to it. I
cannot say what will be the effect of this measure, but it is
one which gives us hope for the future. No man would be
boll enough to say what will be the future course of the
Turkish Government or the future destiny of the Turkish
provinces, but I cannot but believe that there has been a
very considerable change of late years, and a change for
the better. Sir Henry Bulwer has declared that since the
time he has been in Turkey then; has been very consi-
derable improvement, although he is still dissatisfied with
the present state of things. I certainly consider, although
this proposal of the Russian Government at first appeared
to contain n it elements even threatening to the stability
of the Sultan's power, that at present I am justified in hav-
ing great hopes there may be no dissensions among the
powers of Europe, and that if we have to give advice on the
su'ject, it will be given in such a way as not to offend the
just pride of an independent Sovereign. (Bear.)

been sitting upon the subject of the laws regulating
the -relations between masters and workmen, and
that a bill had been recommended by them for establishing
a system of arbitration for the settlement of disputes and
the prevention of strikes. He (Sir C. Lewis) was not san-
guine of the success of any such scheme, but when that
measure came on for consideration, if the hon. gentleman
had any suggestion to offer for the amendment of the ex-
isting law, that would be a favourable opportunity for sub-
mitting it to the house. (Hear.)
The motion that the house at its rising adjourn to Mon-
day was then put and agreed to. ,
LEASING AND IMPROVING LAND (IRELAND).
Mr. WHITESIDE moved for leave to bring in a bill to
consolidate and amend the laws relating to the powers of
leasing and improving land in Ireland.—Agreed to.
UNIVERSITIES AND COLLEGES ESTATES BILL.
This bill was read a second time.
SUPPLY (ARMY ESTIMATES).
The report on the votes passed on the previous evening
was brought up and agreed to.
On the order of the'day for going into supply on the re-
maining estimates,
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY asked the right hon. gentleman
the Secretary for War whether he had any objection to lay
on the table an estimate of the probable expense of the war
in which we were unfortunately involved with China. In
his opinion, nothing could be more affronting to that house
than that it should be made acquainted with those expenses
only at the moment at which it was necessary for them to
be paid. If the right hon. gentleman did not furnish the
statement he (Sir H. Willoughby) should make it the sub-
ject of a distinct motion.
Col. S. KNOX inquired whether, on theexpiration of the
term of service of the general commanding the brigade of
Guards, it was intended to fill up the vacancy.
Colonel SYKES, referring to the report of the commis-
sioners appointed to inquire into the defences of the
co'onies, complained that the Government had done
injustice to two distinguished civilians who had been en-
gaged in that inquiry_namely, Mr. Godley, and Mr. Ha-
milton—their recommendation being that the allowances
made by the State should be in proportion to that provided
by the colony, and not that the colonies should be left
wholly to their own resources in providing means of de-
fence. The gallant colonel also urged that the case of those
officers who retired under the warrant of 1826 upon cap-
tain's half-pay, taking a step in rank, had not been fairly
considered. Many of those officers were still living upon
their captain's half-pay, though there was at least an im-
plied pledge in the arrangement under which they retired
from active service that they should have the advantage of
increased pay as they succeeded to the higher ranks by
seniority equally with their contemporaries.
Mr. SHERIDAN said he wished to ask whether any
alteration was intended in the present system of enlist-
ment.

Mr. S. HERBERT said that, as there was now no doubt
that we were about to engage in a war with China, he not
only had no objection, but it would be his duty to ask the
house to vote an estimate for that war, which it was his
intention to bring forward at a subsequent period. With
regard to the question of the hon. and gallant colonel op-
posite (Colonel S. Knox), the facts of the case were these.
Formerly the command of the brigade of Guards was un-
dertaken in town by the field
.officer in waiting—a lieut.-
colonel of one of those regiments. That arrangement pro-
duoed bad results, for there was a constant change of
hands, and with it a change of system. It was represented
by Sir Colin Campbell (now Lord Clyde) then Inspector of
Infantry, that he had but little acquaintance with the in-
trinsic economy and financial arrangements of the Guards,
which differed in many respects from those of other regi-
ments. An officer was appointed, accordingly, to command
permanently the brigade of Guards, which, as the house
might be aware, was larger than any other brigades com-
manded by a brigadier in England.
Colonel LINDSAY observed that Lord Paimure di-
vided the whole army into brigades, and the Guards were
constituted a brigade under the command of a brigadier.
Sir F. Love, who was now the Inspector of Infantry, had
nothing to do with the interior economy of the various re-
giments.

Mr. S. HERBERT said he believed the Inspector-Ge-
neral could inspect any portion of the infantry.
Colonel KNOX remarked that he never inspected the
Guards,
Mr. S. HERBERT said he did not, but he believed hi
could, and he thought he was correct in stating that the
opinion was expressed by Sir Colin Campbell that from the
peculiar organisation of the Guards there should be a
Guards' officer for the purpose of inspecting them, and
that arrangement had been made. What might be done in
future he was not prepared to say. With regard to the last
question which had been put by the hon. member for
Dudley (Mr. Sheridan), it was one of great difficulty.
Undoubtedly it was the duty of Government to release
those who had been enlisted under false pretences. (Hear.)
The house then went into committee, Mr. blAssiv in the
chair, when a vote of £387,285 was proposed for miscel-
laneous charges.
Colonel KNOX said the first vote brought under their
consideration was for the staff of the depot battalions. Now
there was but one opinion among officers as to that sys-
tem, namely, that it was the most vicious system that could
be imagined. He thought the system of depot battalions
was the worst system that could be imagined, and the most
expensive. He hoped, therefore, that this vote would not
appear again in the estimates.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS called attention to the increase in
the hospital estimates from £90,000 last year to £148,000
this year. He should be glad if the right hon. gentleman
would give some explanation. The hon. member was pro-
ceeding to direct the attention of the committee to the in-
crease of other items in detail, when
An Hort. MEMBER moved that the house be counted, but
The CHAIRMAN ascertaining that 40 members were
present, business proceeded.
Sir DE LACY EVANS said there was generally a very
competent officer chosen to command these battalions, but
he believed that every one of these officers felt that the task
imposed upon them was extremely difficult, and he did hope
the authorit es would see the importance of organising an-
other system. (Hear.) Nothing of the same kind existed
in foreign armies, but they had arrangements in substitu-
tion, which he would suggest should be inquired into by
the Government with a view to an alteration at home.
Mr. F. SMITH said that the whole system was so de-
fective that the sooner it was changed the better.
The hon. member was proceeding to comment upon other
portions of the votes when it was moved that the house be
counted. There were then only 21 members present, but
before the sandglass run down a sufficient number had en-
tered to constitute a house. •
Col. LINDSAY called attention to the result of our pre-
sent system of colonial reliefs after length o f service in India
and our colonies. It was complained that we did not, under
our present recruiting system, get the kind of men we
wanted, or so good in character as was desirable. He be-
lieved that the length of service in India anct in our colo-
nies had much to do with the disinclination of the best of
the working classes to enter the army; and, by a properly-
administered system of transport, much might be done to
promote more frequent reliefs, and make the period of ser-
vice abroad shorter.
Col. SYKES complained that the estimates were defec-
tive in one very essential point. They gave the cost of each
item for this year, as compared with the last, under the
same head, for last year; but they gave members no means
of judging whether the increase was justified or not.
Col. DICKSON said that a great deal had been said
against the depot battalions, and especially that they were
not good schools for young officers. That might have been
true of them when they were first established, but he had
lately had the opportunity of seeing a good deal of their
working', and he found a very great improvement in them.
Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT said that some surprise had
been expressed at there being an increase in the cost of
cavalry horses, but it must be recollected that they had to
remount the Indian cavalry, which were returning home,
and this would account for the increase in this particular
'item. It was said that they could get cheaper horses
abroad, and that the military horses on the Continent were
not as much used up as they were here. That was true,
for he believed we used our horses up more than any other
country, and we did so when our horses were young. With
respect to the observations of the hon. member behind him,
in reference to the health of the army, he felt bound to say
there was a marked improvement in the health of the
army; and during the last two or three years there had
been a great improvement in the hospitals for the army.
He might here observe that all these matters cost money.
Reference had also been made to the expense of the escort
service. Well, if they were to have an effective escort ser-
vice they must pay for it. The value of this service was
shown in the fact that, whereas in 1858-59 the desertions
amounted to 7,547 men, they were reduced in 1859-60 to
4,652. Then, as regarded the expense incidental to the
movement of troops, he would observe that it was deemed
advisable by all military authorities that troops should not
be allowed to remain too long in any one place, and amongst
the objections to their doing so the men got married. Well,
this led to great 'inconvenience in regard to barrack accom-
modation, and in various places they had to build improved
quarters for the accommodation of married men. When the
men got married of course it was desirable that this improved
accommodation should be afforded to them, but then all this
led to expense, and when they considered the fact of men
entering only for short service, namely, for ten years, he
saw no reason why such men should marry, the result of
which led to such inconvenience, and caused such perma-
nent expense to the country for barrack accommodation, and
from other causes. He might add that this year he had made
a reduction in the estimate as regarded the movement
of troops. An hon. Member had spoken of the pay of a
lieutenant-general having been struck off at Malta. • This
was true, and it was to be accounted for by tWi fact that
the civil and military functions of the island had been placed
in the same hands. There was a governor of a colony and
a military governor, and both offices had been continued in
the person of Sir Gaspard Le Marchant, and Gen. Penne-
father, who had command of the troops at Malta, had re-
turned home. An hon. gentleman had complained that
suMcient details were not given in these estimates; but he
believed that, as a matter of fact, they would be more gene-
rally intelligible if there were fu'•ler details. It would be

impossible to attend to all the suggestions made by the ho;,
gentleman with'regard to the estimates; and in all proba-

bility, if these suggestions wore attended to, there would
be very little-saving in the end, because, while some wanted
a decrease of expenditure, others desired an increase. In
reply to the bon. and gallant gentleman the member for
Westminster as to the superiority of the French system,
the right hon. gentleman read a statement which showed
that the number of field officers in a regiment of the line
were in Great Britain three to a regiment of 1,077 men,
while in the French army it was six to a regiment consist-
ing of 1,920 men; that is to say, comparing the proportions
of field officers to.men, the French had one to 320, and we
had one to 359 men. (Hear, hear.) Our system, there-
fore, was not so extravagant as that which was recommended
in its place.
Colonel STUART objected to military prisoners being
sent to civil prisons, as was the case when he was quartered
at Brighton. Men who had been guilty of breaches of mili-
tary discipline ought not to be associated with felons and
clothed in a felon's dress, as hehad seen some of his men
clothed.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS proposed that the vote be reduced
by £5,321, the expense of the forces at Labuan, which he
contended was a sheer waste of money.
Mr. S. HERBERT defended the vote, and said Labuan
was useful as a coal station, and that the vote had been re-
duced by £429, as compared with last year.
Sir J. 1 RELAWNY complained of certain regiments
which had not yet received their medals, but the chairman
of the committee said they must restrict the debate to the
point, as to whether the vote should be reduced as proposed.
The division was about to take place, when no one could
be found to act as teller with Mr. W. Williams.
The vote was therefore agreed to, amidst some laughter,
without a division.
The next vote was £320,000 for embodied militia.
Colonel DICKSON said these regiments ought to know
whether they were to be kept embodied or not. In many of
the regiments only one-half of the men could be got out ;
and unless, therefore, there was some improved system,
knowing that the money was now being thrown into the
dirt, he should feel it is duty to move a diminution of the
vote.

Lord C. HAMILTON disagreed with the last speaker as
to the whole-militia system being a perfect farce. In a regi-
ment he had recently seen exercised there were only 37
men absent, and the men went through the manceuvres in
a highly creditable manner.
General PEEL agreed that it was not desirable to have
the militia embodied in time of peace. His opinion was
that they should be regarded mainly as an army of reserve.
He thought that neither 21 nor 28 days were sufficient for
the training of the militia, and that, when called out, all
necessary time and care should be employed to perfect them
in their drill.
Colonel SYKES thought that but scanty justice had
been done to the militia by hon. members. In his opinion
the militia were a more important body than some persons
supposed. He had had much experience in the training of
soldiers, and he was satisfied it did not by any means re-
quire the time for training that .some supposed.
Mr. S. HERBERT observed that• the vote referred to
the embodied, and not to the disembodied militia. In re -
ference to the latter, however, returns were in course of
being prepared which would give the fullest information
concerning them. Last year there were about 70,000 men
in the militia, of whom 23,080 or 24,000 were embodied,and
the remainder, 45,000 in round numbers, disembodied. He
would not on that occasion enter further into the subject
of the disembodied militia than to say that he thought the
object of that force was mistaken by those who tried to get
out of it an amount of efficiency equal to 'that of regiments
of the line. It could not do it, and was not intended to.
(Hear.) With respect to the proposals of the hon. and gal-
lant gentleman opposite: he would say that if they drew men
from their homes for training once in three or four months,
they would not supply the body of men when they wanted
men resident in the counties to which they belonged—and
if they endeavoured to do so, it would be objected to by the
employers of labour. The gallant officer opposite had
pointed out, also, the inconvenience arising from the time
of year at which the men were called out, A commission
had recommended that the men should be called out simul-
taneously. They had Consulted the local authorities as to
the time at which that simultaneous embodiment should
take place, and were told that, on the whole, the month of
Mey, being just before the hay harvest, was the best time.
Further north, where the hay harvest was later, they were
told that it should be in June ; and further north again, a still
later period of the year was named. They had endea-
voured, to the best of their ability, to suit those varying
views, With respect to the embodiment of the militia, th e
hon. and gallant officer thought it would be advantageous
if a certain number of commissions were set aside for offi-
cers bringing "a certain number of militiamen over to the
line. Now, in the first place, he trusted that the system
of embodying the militia would soon be discontinued, for
as troops returned from India, ho hoped their places would
be fillid up. His belief was that the best thing to do with
the militia was to let it alone. The old system, not to call
them out except in cases of great emergency, was a sound
one. Men joining an embodied regiment liked continuous
service, but they preferred five years of the militia to the
ten of the line, and home to colonial service. If it were not
for the militia, therefore, they would join the line. On the
other hand, the changing from one body to the other would
involve a second bounty. A disembodied militia resident
in this country, and ready to be called out for training at
suitable intervals, was upon the whole the most desirable
arrangement. The question put to him, therefore, fell to
the ground ; for if there was to be no recruiting from the
militia, there was no ground for the Suggestion that com-
missions should be reserved for the promotion of that ob-
ject. He had always been of opinion, too, that it must be
heartbreaking to colonels of militia, after having been at
great pains and expense to get their regiments into a state
that they could pride themselves upon, to be called upon
to volunteer into the line. (Hear.) He agreed with the
right hon. and gallant gentleman, the late 'Secretary for
War, with respect to the militia. Some officers asked for
early notice of disembodiment, but others again warned
them not to let it be known too soon; because, from that
moment there was a marked difference in the discipline.
There were, therefore, two sides to that question.
After a few words from Mr. W. WILLIAMS and some
other hon., members, the vote was agreed to.

The next vote proposed was the sum of £34,000 to com-
plete the amount necessary for the volunteer corps.
Mr. MILES complained that the yeomanry cavalry did
not receive that consideration and attention which he con-
sidered they were entitled to, and said if they were armed
with the new carbine they would in a very short space of
time be a most efficient body of men.
Col. KNOX said while the Government were giving
every encouragement to the volunteer movement they were
acting so as to put a complete extinguisher upon the yeo-
manry cavalry. If the Government would arm the yeo-
manry with the breech-loading rifle they would be a most
valuable adjunct to the volunteer force.
Mr. S. HERBERT admitted that the peculiar organisa •
tion of this corps ought to be accounted for. The system of.
attaching a certain number of filet riflemen to a cavalry
regiment was submitted to Sir J. Scarlet, who thought it
was an experiment worth trying, but there had been no
force beyond the ordinary establishment. The Government
had no intention whatever of discontinuing the services of
the yeomanry, and they might always depend upon having
14,000" or 15,000 men in that quarter. He had encouraged

the volunteer movement—(cheers)—but he did not wish to
to
discourage the yeomanry. (Hear.) It would take a million

in the estimates to purchase practice grounds for all the
volunteers, and they did not feel inclined this year to in-
sert that suna in increase of the army estimates.

Sir S. NORTHCOTE said thoy must not allow the old
force of yeomanry to be disgusted by the preference shown
to the volunteers.

Mr. KNIGHT said that the Government had given them
£20,000 less than usual this year, because there were
___ _ _

20,000 more volunteers.

Lord ELCHO said there was no competition on the part
of the volunteers with either the yeomanry or the militia.
They considered themselves as only auxiliary to the other
regular and irregular forces of the country. He would be
glad, however, to see the yeomanry armed with the breech-
loading arms, and formed into a volunteer cavalry. He
had to express his thanks to his right hon. friend and his
noble friend the Under-Secretary of War for the tact,
judgment, and zeal to do what was best for the volunteers.
(Hear, hear.) With respect to the views of Sir J.
Bur-
goyne as to the efficiency of volunteers as a substitute for
the regular army, he quite concurred with him, so far as
they were expressed in a recent letter. But he had cer-
tainly been surprised by a statement that night that we had
not more than 30,000 men of the regular army ready for the
defence of the country.

Mr. S. HERBERT said that the 'volunteers were dis-
tinctly exempted from being called ont to quell ordinary
riots or disturbance.

The vote was then agreed to, and the chairman was or-
dered to report progress.

The other orders were disposed of, and the house ad-
journed at half-past twelve o'clock.

A letter from Warsaw, of the 25th of May,
informs us that the concentration of the Russian troops on
the frontiers of Turkey is an undoubted fact. Be,ides the
sth corps, which had arrived to occupy a position on the
Upper Pruth, a second corps is concentrated in Bessarabia
and Podolia, so that when the two corps are united the
force will amount to 60,000 men.
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admirable—they not only cleanse, but preserve the fabric in
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