The Sun.
London, England, 1860-04-17 00:00:00

were entitled to progress in rank, and to an increased half -
pay ;but, according to the letter which had been signed by
the Secretary to the Admiralty, those officers were to remain
in their present position. Many of them were most distin-
guished officers, and some of them he would selact for his
flag captains if he had the opportunity. As the whole cost
to the country of granting to those officers the justice they
sought would be under £2,000 a year, he hoped their just
claims would meet with due consideration.

-
Admiral WALCOTT agreed with what bad fallen from
the hon. member for Portsmouth (Sir 7 ,Elphinsione), and
in advocating the claims of the reserved captains he was en.
couraged by the statement of the right hon. baronet (Sir F.
Baring), who had said that in drawing up the minute affect-
ing those officers he did so with the clear understanding that
he confined the reserved list to simply advancing them to
the rank of captains, and allowing them to receive the gra-
duated pay of junior captains. That class of officers, how-
ever, accepted that promotion in the firm belief that they
would receive an increase of pay agreeably to seniority,
though they were aware that in being so advanced they gave
up all hopes of good-service pensions, and of ever being
called into active service, except in times of emergency. He
had heard it stated in the course of the discussion, with
some regret and astonishment, that in the United States
there were no less than 150,000 seamen in employment, of
whom only one-fourth were American subjects. He was
one of those, however, who firmly believed that in the event
of this country being, unhappily, involved in a war we
should find the same loyalty and devotion among our sea-
faring population as had been displayed throughout the'rest
of the community in the formation of volunteer corps. We
had 180,000 seafaring men, 23,000 of whom were mates,
60,000 were able seamen, and a considerable number were
ordinary seamen. In the event of a war a great number of

the merchant seamen would be prevented following their
ordinary calling; they would therefore be available for the
navy, and would flock to the national standard with alacrity

in ease of need. Nevertheless, he would wish to see an efff
cient reserve maintained ; but still, let the Government
offer what temptation they might, the result would always
be limited, for merchant seamen liked to rove about
the world, and were averse from the discipline of a
man-of-war. In 1853 he impressed upon the Govern-
ment the necessity of having ships stationed at all
our mercantile ports, under the command of officers of
high character, for the training of men for the navy ; and
if that suggestion had been adopted we should now have
had between 20,000 and 30,000 young able seamen in a high
state of efficiency and discipline, on whom we might have
relied as a reserved force in an emergency. He would now
suggest to the Admiralty the necessity if urging the whole
service to become familiar with the new modes of naval
warfare. (Hear, hear.) Numbers of the lieutenants in the
navy had unhappily lest heart, so few were their chances
of promotion. It had been said that the list of officers had
become crowded in consequence of the unusual longevity in
that department of the service. It should, however, be
borne in mind that the time was when this country was in-
volved in war, not with one but with several nations, when
there were a thousand pennants in the service, and when a
corresponding number of officers was required. But in 1815,
when peace was established, three-fourths of them. were
placed on half-pay, and there they had remained.
Mr. BENTINCK, before adverting to the subject under
discussion, wished to tender his thanks to his hon. friend
the member for Portsmouth (Sir J. Elphinstene) for the
graceful and feeling allusion he had made to a recent me-
lancholy event. (Hear, hear.) He believed there was no
member on either side of the house who would not readily
acknowledge that the amiable qualities and the great ability
of the late lamented member for Berkshire (Captain Lei-
cester Vernon) were such as to render his untimely end a
source of the deepest regret. (Cries of Hear, hear, from both
sides of the house.) He (Mr. Bentinck) could not forbear
reminding the house that the Government had inaugurated
a now financial policy, the obvious result if not the avowed
object of which must be so to cripple our financial resources
as to render the maintenance of the national defences next
to impossible ; and he asked how they could reconcile the
conflicting positions of in all probability decreasing re-
sources with an increasing expenditure. Reference had
been made during the debate, by a gallant admiral, to
recent disturbances on board some of her Majesty's
ships. He (Mr. Bentinck) believed the real cause of those
disturbances was referable to the tendency of the existing
state of public feeling to resist authority. In the navy dis •
graceful occurrences of that kind were constantly occur-
ring, and he believed there was no member of that house
who would not say that when discipline ceased to exist in
the navy the navy itself might as well cease to exist alto •
gather. In the case if the mercantile marine the tendency
of their legislation had been that, in the ease of disputes
between masters of vessels and the men, the former were
sometimes compelled to have recourse to what must be re-
garded as ve unjustifiable acts. (Hear.) The gallant
admiral opposite had referred to the subject of bounties.
There might no doubt be cases in which a system of b3un-
ties might be beneficially resorted to, but he believed those
cases were of an exceptional character. In most instances
where bounties were resorted to the fault lay with the Ad-
miralty in not providing the means of keeping up a regular
supply of seamen for the service. But here, again, ho be-
lieved the origin of the evil was to be found in that house.
There was a constant struggle between the Board of Admi-
ralty and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who was al-
ways making use of every expedient to make the two ends
meet„ and driving the Board of Admiralty to practices of
which they were ashamed. (Hear.) The system of bounties
was one of extravagance in the long run, and he believed
that if they were to pay their seamen well, so as preserve
them to the navy, they would not only add to the security
of the country, but effect an actual saving of money. (Hear,
hear.) Complaints had been made of the enormous cost of
building, and the large outlay of public money at the docks.
He agreed with those who thought it desirable to reduce
the expenditure ; but contended that it was impossible in
the present state of things to have any efficient reduction
of expenditure. He attached no blame to any board
past or present for this. The cause lay in the system—
(hear, hear)—in the fact that they placed men in respon-
sible positions, who could have no possible knowledge of
their business—(hear, hear)—and, above all, because they
made the Board of Admiralty a political jobbing office.
(Hear, hear.) If they wanted to have efficiency and eco-
nomy they must have at the Admiralty a continuous sys-
tem, managed by persons continuously responsible and
wholly independent of political movements, and they must
place at the head of it a man who, by profession and repu-
tation, was admitted to be thoroughly competent to under-
take the whole management. (Hear.) They had heard
sometking about the price of anchors ; and he had no doubt
the Admiralty paid twice as much they ought to do for
their anchors ; but this arose from the same cause. Wear,
hear.) His right hon. friend the member for Oxfordshire
(Mr. Henley) had brought before the house the important
question of timber, and he impugned the figures and calcu-
lations of the noble duke at the head of the Admiralty. His
right hon. friend made out his case with that clearness and
force which always distinguished him; but he could not
agree withhim when he impugned the conduct of the noble
duke. He believed the noble duke was as, good a man for
the position he held as could be got, and he knew that his
noble and gallant friend (Lord C. Paget) had worked hard
to remedy the abuses of the Admiralty. But it was impos-
sible fully to remedy those abuses under the present system
which his noble and gallant friend knew to be perfectly in.
defensible. (Hear, hear.) They had been told time after
time that if any private building yard was carried on upon
the system pursued by the Admiralty, the Bank of England
would not be able to keep them going:six months. (Hear,
hear.) He believed that the great body of officials at the
Admiralty time after time had been doing their best to remedy
abuses, butfound them beyond their control. (Hear, hear.)
The expenses ofthenavy were likely to increase year by year,
and it was of the utmost importance that they should watch
with the utmost vigilance the expenditure of every shilling
foree Lambetheman w cheered,erwere very
y differentb ut h s
in the dockyards. (" Hear, hear," from Mr. Williams.)
chose e h eonf thatm mhboenr.viewsuon thisand
subject. (A laugh.) He would not grudge the most liberal
outlay for the navy,
and all he asked was that the money
should be judiciously applied. (Hear, hear.) Till the ho use
was prepared to grapple with the • great evil of the system
all committees of inquiry were waeless, and discussion in the
of details they were only wasting their
time,
millions of the public money. (Hear, hear) and
wasting
Lord C. PAGET said he would not then make any re-
marks, but when the house went into committee he would
take the opportunity of answering the various statements
that had been made.
The house then went into committee on the
NAVY ESTIMATES.
Mr. MASSEY in the chair.
The first vote moved was a sum of £160,280 to defray the
expenses of the Admiralty-office.
Lord C. PAGET said, before referring to the vote which
had just been brought under the notice of the Committee, he
was desirous of replying to statements that had been made
on various subjects connected with the navy.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY rose to order. He wished to
know whether the noble lord was entitled to make a general
statement in committee when a particular vote was before
them ?

The CIIAIRMAN said it was not usual or convenient to
make a general statement in committee, but the noble lord
would no doubt exercise a sound discretion, and limit his
explanation as much as possible to the particular vote be-
fore them.
Mr. LOVAINE said that several questions were put to
the noble lord before going into committee, and it was unfair
to hon. members to make his answer in committee.
Sir J. PAKINGTON thought that no exception could be
taken to the manner in which the Chairman had explained
the rule of the house. At the same time, as a matter of pre-
cedent, he remembered none worse than that set by the
noble lord, who had taken a most objectionable course. A
long debate had taken place, matters of serious importance
had been discussed, and it was the duty of the noble lord, as
the representative of the Admiralty, to give a frank and
fair answer to the questions put to him ; instead of which
the noble lord had completely departed from the rules of ,
the house. To his extreme astonishment, the noble lord
said he should offer no answer, but that he had a statement
to makewhich he should make in Committee of Supply.
The noble lord, deviating from the established and recog-
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