The Sun.
London, England, 1860-05-02 00:00:00

refer, and that was in relation to the latter portion of the;
hon. and gallant admiral's motion, that " the house is also
of opinion that the bounty for able seamen ought not to have
been lowered till the number wanted was complete." He
(Lord C. Paget) thought he had already answered that
opinion, as he had shown that our fleets were only a few
men short of their proper complements, and the deficiencies
were only such as the ordinary casualties would create ;
that we had a vast number of boys who were growing into
good sailors; that they were daily entering seamen suffi
cient to fill up any vacancies that might exist; and that
therefore it would have been unwise and unnecessary to
continue the payment of a large bounty. (Hear, hear.)
He demurred to the proposition of the gallant admiral that
bounties were good things, and, indeed, he regarded the
system of bounties as an unwholesome one. (Hear, hear.)
He admitted that last year there were strong reasons for
the course which the right hon. s,3;entleman opposite (Sir J.
Pakington) took in offering a large bounty, which certainly
did enable the country to obtain a good many men. (Hear,
hear.) The present Government had lowered the bounty
because they thought the offer of a large bounty was, in
ordinary circumstances, an objectionable system. He be-
lieved it had been one of the causes of that craving for leave
which had become apparent among the men, because they
had their pockets full of money, and were always wanting
opportunities for spending it, and, therefore, ho held the
opinion that the offer of a large bounty, except under pecu-
liar circumstances, was unwise and detrimental to the pub-
; lie service. He thought he had proved to the house that the
Admiralty had not been unmindful of their duty, and that
. .

it was their continual study to improve the condition of the
navy, and therefore he hoped the house would not agree to
the motion of the hon. and gallant admiral. (Hear.)
Sir J. PAKINGTCN agreed with the noble lord that

he motion of the gallant admiral was too extensive and
peculiar, and his speech too general, to make it an easy task
to follow him. With respect to the last portion of the mo-
tion, he doubted whether it was framed in accordance with
the rules of the house, and whether the Speaker could put
a motion which commenced by an address to the Crown
and concluded with a resolution. He was glad, however,
to hear that the Admiralty had decided to lower the bounty,
as he did not consider it was desirable to retain the bounty
system as a permanent system. (Hear.) His sincere belief
was, that under the peculiar circumstances that existed
last year, the late Government were justified in taking the
step they did take, and the noble lord had very frankly ad-
mitted that he took a similar view. But the adoption of
that exceptional course last year did not at all imply an
approval of a permanent system of bounties, and ho had
felt some apprehension lest the present Government might
intend to continue that system. He had heard with great
pleasure what had been said by his noble friend on this
subject, and thought the Government had acted with great
propriety in referen le to it. At the same time, while he
could not concur in censuring them for what they had
done, he was glad that the gallant Admiral had brought
this motion forward, because the practical ques-
tion which he had submitted was one of -great interest
to the house and the country. 'What were the exertions
which the Admiralty were now making to attain the all-
important object of a permanent and reliable naval re-
serve ? That was the point for consideration, and the
gallant Admiral's motion had elicited from the noble lord a
statement which would, he thought, give much satisfaction.
(Hear, hear.) With regard to the maintenance of reliefs
at the various ports, there was no subject on which the late
Board entertained greater anxiety. The Committee on
Manning the Navy and the Royal Commission had made a
wise recommendation on this point, and he was very glad
to hear from the noble lord that if the numbers voted by
Parliament were completed, there would be in the ports
somewhere about 4,000 men available for immediate service
afloat. (Hear.) He did hope the successive Boards of
Admiralty would never lose sight of this point, and that the
House of Commons would never hesitate to grant every
year the necessary funds to prevent the disgraceful spec-
tacle of men-of-war lying in harbour for months before they
could complete their complement of men. (Hear, hear.)
With regard to the coastguard he understood the noble lord
to say that, the Royal Commissioners having recommended
the raising of this force to 12,000 men, the Admiralty were
now aiming to procure that number. The estimates did
not so provide, because, no doubt, they could not expect to
obtain so many men in the present year, but he understood
it to be the intention of the Board ultimately, and as soon as
they could, to raise the force of coast-guard to 12,000 men.
(Hear, hear.) Then came the question of the Royal Naval
Volunteers, New, it might appear a trifling matter, but he
would ask whether the Board were doing well to retain that
name. We had already the Naval Coast Volunteers, and
would it not be better to have a distinct title for each, and
to call the new force by the very intelligible name of the
Royal Naval Reserve? (Hear.) The mainpoint was how soon
this would become an effective and an available force. He did
not despair of seeing the number of men who came forward
considerably increased, and he trusted that the Admiralty
would spare no exertions to complete the number. The
noble lord had spoken of the scarcity of seamen as cm
reason for the slow increase of this reserve force. It was
most undesirable, both in the interests of the Royal Navy
and of the merchant service, that such a scarcity should
exist, and, with a view to supply the want, he quite agreed
with the noble lord as to the great importance of increasing
the number of boys in the service. (Hear, hear.) Whether
the proportion of boys to seamen should be one- fifth or one-
sixth he would not venture to say ; but it should be remem-
bered that whatever abstractedly might be the desirable
proportion, it must be difficult, if not impossible, to fix that
proportion with precision so long as the House of Commons
were in the habit of voting at the request of the Govern-
ment a fluctuating number of seamen each year. However
this might be, the surest way of maintaining the navy was
to train up men fur ourselves, and always to take care to
have a large number of boys in training. (Hear, hear.)
From the latter part of the speech of his noble friend he
hoped it might be inferred that the Government intended
to carry out the whole recommendation of the Royal Com-
mission on this subject. (" Hear," from Lord C. Paget.)
He was glad to hear that cheer, and wished also to know
whether the recommendation respecting schooiships would
be followed. This recommendation most wisely went far
beyond the requirements of the Royal Navy. The Commis-
sion contemplated the training of boys, so as to supply the
merchant marine also, and no part of their report was
sounder and more judicious. It was to be hoped that, as the
result of the measures suggested by the Commission, cor-
dial relations would be established between the two ser-
vices, so that merchant seamen might be led to enter the
navy freely in times of emergency. Altogether he gladly
aceepted the noble lord's statement that the Admiralty were
doing all they could to insure the efficient manning of the
navy, and the formation of a reserve which should be in-
stantly available in case of need. (Hear, hear.)
Sir M. SEYMOUR said there could be no doubt, either
there or elsewhere, as to the great importance of carrying
out the recommendations of the Royal Commission, be-
cause nothing could be of more vital importance to the
people of this country than having an ample add effi-
cient naval reserve in the time of need. lie had been
much gratifiedby the statement of the noble lord, because it
had shown an intention on the part of the Government to
carry out the recommendations of the commission in a
manner which would be satisfactory to the house and to the
country. He must say that with our voluntary system we
laborered under great disadvantages as compared with other
nations where compulsory service was the rule. We stood
alone in our arrangements in that respect, having as it were
a free trade in seamen. One by one the proclamations and
orders in council by which our seaman were prohibited from
serving other Governments had been withdrawn or fallen into
disuetude. Our navigation laws had been swept away,
under which a numerous and hardy race of able-bodied sea-
men had been bred as apprentices in our coasting trade ;
and the whole tendency and character of modern legislation
had been such as to diminish our command of able-bodied
seamen for the navy. (Hear.) At the same time our com-
merce had not declined, but increased, our colonial interests
had not diminished, but increased in importance, and, in
case of any hostilities at home, he was at a loss to under-
stand how we were to find sufficient numbers to meet the
emergency. We certainly had not a sufficiently large re-

serve at present, and he would only express his most earnes

hope that the Government, by carrying without delay the
recommendations of the commissiou into effect, would thus
secure the interests and maintain the honour of the country.
Mr. CORRY said that last year he had been accused of

" rushing into vulgar expenditure ;" but his principle was,
that no expenditure should be incurred that could be pos-
sibly avoided. The changing of these block ships every
tkreo years was wholly unnecessary, and he was therefore
opposed to the waste of public money which such a course
would occasion to the extent of £128,000 every three years.
The best way to deal with the block ships would be to let

them die a natural death, and not replace them as they
wore out. He hoped th• gallant admiral would not divide
the house, but if he did he should vote against the motion.

Admiral Sir G. PECHELL urged the expediency of
training boys for the navy, as such an arrangement was
more necessary now than ever.

Admiral WALCOTT concurred in the necessity of main-
taining the navy in the highest state of efficiency, but he
thought there were many alleged grievances enumerated by
the gallant admiral which would be far better left to the
consideration of the Admiralty and the ship's officers than
brought so frequently before Parliament. He agreed in
the remarks of his hon. friend (Mr. Corry) respecting a
uniform system of leave. If habits of care and forethought
were cultivated in their sailors, they might rely upon it
they would not long have to deplore those scenes of de-
bauchery and dissipation which were so disgraceful on the
part of the British sailor. If they once permitted any in-
subordination in their fleet there would then be an end of
their utility and prowess as a maritime nation. He could

not agree in the propriety of increasing the coast guard to
12,000 men. He hoped the Admiralty would introduce into

the navy 3,000 or 4,000 boys annually, but they should take

care that too great a proportion of boys was not introduced
into each ship. For the manning of the navy they must
trust to themselves, and not rely on the mercantile marine

in time of peaco. It was a subject for congratulation that

they had 24 sail of the line, quite independent of frigates,
ready in case of any emergency.
' Sir H. VERNEY said that from his own experience he
could bear testimony to the efficiency of boys on board ships,
and he read an extract of a letter from a naval officer which
suite confirmed this view, When shire were paid off the

men were dispersed, and we lost their services when they
were required again. This did not occur in the army, and
ought not to occur in the navy. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. BENTINCK suggested that the motion of the gal-
lant admiral should not be pressed to a division, although
the house should be indebted to him for bringing the
matter under consideration. Ho (Mr. Bentinck) thought
the time for discontinuing the bounty was when the
number of men required had been completed. It was
premature to discontinue the bounty until the required
complement of men had entered the service. As to the
coast guard the house was not aware of the value of their
services. In 1859, in 11 stations they had saved property to
the amount of £791,000, and 1,243 lives. (Hear, hear.) As
to manning the navy there could be no difficulty if they
followed the example of the mercantile marine, namely, to
pay the market price. It was an unwise and injudicious
parsimony which prevented the Admiralty from obtaining
an adequate supply of men. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. WILLIAMS was of opinion that if flogging in the
navy were abolished any number of men required might be
'easily obtained.
Sir C. NAPIER replied, and in doing so complained that
his observations had been perverted by the noble lord (Lord
C. Paget), and that the same course had been pursued by
the noble lord on former occasions. He concluded by ask-
ing leave to withdraw his motion, which was withdrawn
accordingly.
BERWICK-UPON-TWEED ELECTION.
Mr. PEEL, as chairman of the Berwick election com-
mittee, moved an address for a commission of inquiry into
the bribery alleged at that election, and that the concur-
rence of the Lords be requested in presenting such address.
He detailed the circumstances adduced before the commit-
tee, which led to the conclusion that bribery had been com-
mitted. The inquiry before the committee was incomplete;
it was only carried to the extent necessary for the purpose
of the petition, and it was for the house to decide whether
it would carry the inquiry any further into the stato of a
borough long notorious for corruption. It was only by the
issue of a commission that the deeply-rooted habits of the
voters could be eradicated. He did not anticipate that the
inquiry would be either long or expensive, as the place was
not large nor the circumstances complicated.
Mr. D. COUTTS MAJORIBANKS, one of the mem-
bers for the borough, said that he had stood under an ex-
press declaration that he would not spend a single shilling
in any corrupt act. That pledge he had strictly kept, nor
had he been ever asked to break it. His elections had cost
him in each case very moderate sums. Berwick had during
the last year been very sorely tried, and not fairly used ;
still he should feel it his duty to vote for the motion, satis-
fied that the circumstances would, as far as he was con-
cerned, bear the strictest investigation.
Mr. MACAULAY objected to a commission,being issued
for the mere purpose of satisfying the curiosity of the com-
mittee as to the conduct of the individuals on the list in
question.
Lord R. CECIL, as a member of the committee, observed
that it had not been proved that the person offering the bribe
was not an agent of the candidate. All the machinery for
corruption was to be found in the place, which was a pre-
sumptive proof of its prevalence.
Mr. E. JAMES likewise supported the motion, which was
opposed by Mr. LONGFIELD.
Mr. COLLIER said that previous commissions had been
of essential service, and that the Electoral Corruption Com-
mittee had drawn its most important information from their
reports. Hitherto they had always issued commissions on
the report of committees, and if they now retraced their
steps they would never have another commission.
Mr. M. SMITH said the evidence of bribery was not
sufficient to justify the commission, which, in all proba-
bility, would lead to nothing.
Mr. BRIGHT was willing to take the opinion of mem-
bers of the committee, and to support the commission. If
it did not issue, they would be in a worse position than if
the Corrupt Practices Act had never passed. He believed
that great good had resulted from previous commissions,
speaking from his own knowledge in the case of Wakefield.
Mr. MALINS opposed the commission, as leading to no
result except needless expense.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL protested against the
low view of the question when thus taken on the ground of
expense. He advocated the commission, adding that there
ought to be a distinct understanding that its report would
be acted upon. He pledged himself, so far as his own
office was concerned, to take all possible measures to give
it due effect.
Lord PALMERSTON declared that he could not be-
lieve that the house would hesitate in a case of such noto-
rious bribery and corruption. He denied the commission
would lead to no result. The mere exposure of gross de-
linquency would act as a preventative to future offences.
The house, he insisted, would shrink from its duty if it re-
fused to appoint this commission.
Mr. WHITESIDE inquired why the Attorney-General
was silent on a similar case of the Galway election ? That
learned gentleman had promised much for the future, but
said nothing as to the past. The practical question was,
if this commission would have more important consequences
than its predecessors, which had no consequences at all.
Sir G. LEWIS, adverting to an observation that one of
the persons implicated in the Wakefield case had been re-
tained as a magistrate for the borough, said that if the al-
legation were proved against that person he would be re-
moved from the commission forthwith.
Mr. S. ESTCOURT was favourable to the issuing of the
commission, and hoped that it would shadow forth the
course which they ought to pursue in consequence of such
inquiries. Should these lead to no result, it would be use-
less to appoint commissions in future.
The motion was then agreed to.
Mr. PEEL followed up this motion by another, that the
house direct the prosecution of one of the witnesses before
the committee for perjury.
This motion was also agreed to.
Mr. CARDWELL obtained leave to introduce a bill for
taking the census of Ireland.
ATTORNEYS, SOLICITORS, PROCTORS, AND
CERTIFICATED CONVEYANCERS BILL.
The house went into committee on this bill.
Mr. LOCKE moved the omission of the word " manag,
ing" in clause 4.
After some conversation the word " managing" was
struck out.

Clauses up to 18 were agreed to.
On clause 18, which empowers attorneys, solicitors, and
proctors to act as justices of the peace in certain cases, a
discussion arose as to the expediency of not conferring such
a power within a certain area.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said it was desirable that
the administration of justice should not even in appearance
be exposed to suspicion, and that if it were in any consider-
able number of instances to happen that gentlemen occu-
pied seats on the judicial bench within the area to which
their practice in their profession extended such a result
would not be unlikely to be brought about. No one, of
course, supposed tbat the exclusion of those to whom the
bill related from the bench of justice would be advocated on
the ground of any personal unworthiness on their part as a
body to hold such a position.
Mr. MOWBRAY suggested that his hon. and learned
friend should withdraw the clause.
After some discussion the clause was negatived, without
a division, and the CiLURNIAN was ordered to report pro-
gress.
ECCLESIASTICAL COURTS JURISDICTION BILL.
This bill passed through committee.
The Common Lodging•houses (Ireland) Bill was read a
third time and passed.
REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE BILL.
Lord PALMERSTON fixed this bill for Thursday next,
when he hoped it would pass through the second reading ;
but, at all events, on Thursday night ho should feel it his
duty to take the sense of the house if a further adjournment
should be moved. The Reform Bill would take precedence
of other ordeis on Thursday.
Mr. lIENNESSY inquired whether the second reading
of the Irish Reform Bill would be taken before the commit-
tee on the English Reform Bill ?
Lord PALMERSTON said he would consider that
matter.
The Customs Bill was read a third time and passed.
The house adjourned at five minutes past 1 o'clock.

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