The Sun.
London, England, 1860-07-18 00:00:00

regard to dealing with children in masses, it was a totally
different matter from the present proposition, which pro-
posed to institute an inquiry into every private family in
the kingdom, and impose penal consequences for neglect of
the education of children. And this proposition made
without there being any machinery provided for its being
carried out, and it would be necessary to introduce such
machinery in the bill at the late period of the
session in order to render it effective. Having ad-
verted to the great increase in the public expenditure,
which if it proceeded at the geometrical rates of late
years, would present a most threatening aspect, the right
hon. gentleman contended that any additional expenditure
must be considered with the greatest care. .Again this was

the state of public business. Last night an appeal had been

made to Government not to proceed with any bills this
session which they were sure they would not be able to

carry, and they had endeavoured to proceed on that prin-
ciple. He thought that a similar appeal should be made to
private members, and he called on the house to reject the
present measure, on the ground that it could not properly
be discussed.

Mr. HENLEY and Mr. BUXTON strongly opposed the bill.
Mr. ADDERLEY said that there was no objection to
the principle of his bill, and contended that the right
hon. gentleman (Sir G. Lewis) was most inconsistent in his
opposition to the bill, when he had supported the measure
with reference to mines, which had been so fully discussed
during the present session. The principle of the bill had
been frequently affirmed by legislation for the last twenty
years, and it was nothing more than that children under a
certain ago should not be employed all their time without
obtaining even the rudiments of education. He denied
that in the State undertaking to see that a certain amount
of education was provided for the poor there was anything
compulsory, or at variance with the functions of Govern-
ment. With regard to its alleged vexatious interference
with employers, the bill merely proposed that employers
should net take children into their service, under a certain
age, who were totally uneducated, without making pro-
vision for their receiving instruction for at least five hours
a-week.

Mr. EWART supported the bill on the general prin•
oiple.

Mr. HARDY opposed the second reading because
the bill was compulsory when it prevented chil-
dren obtaining employment unless they had re•
ceived a certain amount of instruction. If that
proposition were carried out the State should
provide education. (Hear, hear.) The situation of foreign
countries in respect to education should not be a guide to
this country, for what the former gained in method they

lost in freedom. He contended that the education which
children received by being sent early to earn their
bread was of a more valuable character than
that derived from the mere acquisition of reading
or writing. He asserted that there was no analogy between
the Factory Bill and their recent legislation in reference to
children employed in mines, and he utterly denied the doc-
trine that because they had adopted partial legislation they
should proceed to entire legislation in reference to the sub -
ject of the education of children. In his opinion it was
most unwise at this period when labour was scarce to im •
pose any restriction on employment, and he believed that
nothing would be so injurious to the progress of educa-
tion in this country than the introduction of th 2 principle of
compulsion.
Mr. BAZLEY bore his testimony to the advantages
derived from education in factories. He believed
that the introduction of education into Lanca-
shire had been the means of rendering the working
population of that district, not only better able to provide
for themselves, but less criminal. (Hear, hear.) He had
sent out more than 2,000 children, who had received edu-
cation in his elementary schools, who had proved most re-
spectable members of society, and from whom he had
selected clerks and overseers. In his experience none of
these had been convicted of an offence against the laws,
and he regretted that they could not devise some means of
extending education to that Pariah class who were wander-
ing about our streets without food or instruction. Not-
withstanding, he believed they could deal practically only
with the children of the labouring classes who were
employed in large numbers. He hoped, however, that
this bill would be the means of the introduction of some
practical and comprehensive system of education.
Mr. NEWDEGATE opposed, and Sir J. PAKINGTON sup-
ported, the bill in principle.
After some further discussion, in which Mr. Bruce, Mr.
Whiteside, Mr. H. Taylor, and Mr. Baines took part, the
house divided—
For the second reading 5l
Against

Majority —7l
This bill was accordingly lost.
SPIRITS BILL.
On the motion for the third reading of this bill,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
as he would have to introduce now duties, founded on the
resolutions agreed to last evening, he would move that the
bill be recommitted.
The order for the third reading was then discharged, and
the bill was ordered to be recommitted.
SALE OF GAME ACTS.
The house wont into committee on this bill, and several
clauses as amended were agreed to ; after which the Chair-
man reported progress.
NEW MEMBER.
Mr. White took the oaths and his seat for Brighton.
The house then suspended sitting.

The house resumed at six o'clock.
SUBMARINE TELEGRAPH.
Lord A. CHURCHILL asked the ['resident of the Board
of Trade when the report of the commission appointed to
inquire into the merits of submarine telegraph cables would
be laid upon the table of the house ?
Mr. M. GIBSON said he understood some experiments
had been made which were successful, and the report would
be laid on the table before the end of the session.
PRIVILEGE.
Lord FERMOY asked whether the motion he had placed
on the paper, relative to the Paper Duties Repeal Bill,
which affected the privileges of the house, had not prece •
dence of other motions ?
The SPEAKER said that a question of this sort to have
precedence must refer to some matter that had recently
arisen, and was of immediate importance. The question re-
ferred to by the noble lord could not be said to be of this
character, because, 12 days ago, some resolutions were
adopted by the house on the subject. The house did not ad-
mit the claim of precedence unless the prescribed require-
ments were fulfilled, which not being so in this instance no
precedence could be accorded.
DEFENCES OF THE COUNTRY.
In reply to Mr. HOPWOOD,
Lord PALMERSTON said he rather thought he would
make his statement on this subject on Friday, but he would
give a formal notice on the subject.
NATIONAL EDUCATION (IRELAND).
Mr. BUTT moved for an address to her Majesty praying
that some alteration might be made in the mode of distri-
buting the national education grant in Ireland. He con-
tended that the same system of national education allowed
in England ought also to be permitted in Ireland.
Mr. WHITESIDE supported the motion as the repre-
sentative of the opinions of the clergy and laity of the Re-
formed Church of Ireland. The Government had recog•
nised the instinctive feeling and conscientious objections
of the Dissenting bodies on the matter of the Census Bill,
and he claimed equal respect for the instinctive feelings
and conscientious views of the Protestants of Ireland. The
bulk of the clergy had for 25 years steadily opposed this
system, and no Ministry during that period had been able
to induce them to give up their opposition to it. He was
prepared to make every concession to the Roman Catholics,
but would insist on the free use of the Bible for those of
his own Church.
Mr. CARDWELL defended the national system of edu-
cation in Ireland, as one which had, during the last 30
years, conferred greater advantages upon the people of that
country than could be paralleled in any other country in
the world, and which had during the whole time steadily
progressed in its influence over the minds of the people,
and risen in their estimation. In proof of this general con-
clusion the right hon. gentleman quoted the statistics of
the number of schools and scholars ever since 1830 up to
last year, and contended that the figures conclusively de-
monstrated the utter want of any foundation for the speeches
against it, or the motion of Mr. Butt. He denied that there
had been any infringement of, or departure from, the car-
dinal principles of the system for the benefit of Presbyte-
rians or Roman Catholics, and he refused assent to the de-
mand made in the terms of the motion. The right hon.
gentleman argued at some length in favour of the system,
which was successful in its character and in its results, and
had the support of some of the highest authorities in the
country.
Mr. LEFROY thought it very hard on the clergy of the
Church in Ireland that they should be deprived of all
benefit from the national system of education.
Mr. HENNESSY moved the adjournment of the debate.
The house then divided, when the numbers were—
For the adjournment 66
Against it
Majority . .
Mr. HENNESSY hoped the house would give its assent
to the motion of his hon. and learned friend the member
for Youghal.
Mr. BUTT, in reply, said the Roman Catholic bishops
had conscientious objections to the national system, and
that a large majority of the population of Ireland also en-
tertained conscientious objections to it. But the right hon.
gentleman the Secretary of State for Ireland said that the
Primate had approved and sanctioned the system. Now,
what he (Mr. Butt.) complained of was that this mixed sys-
tem of education should be forced upon Ireland ; and, look •
ing at all the circumstances, he hoped the house would
agree to his motion. (Hear, hear.)
The house divided—
For the motion
Against it
Majority —l34
PAPER DUTIES REPEAL BILL.
Lord FERMOY moved that the rejection by the House
of Lords of the Bill for the Repeal of the Paper Duties was
ran encroachment on the rights and privileges of the House
of Commons; and that it was, therefore, incumbent upon