The Sun.
London, England, 1860-06-23 00:00:00

hoped that something would be done to give effect to their

recommendations.

Mr. M ALINS thought the savings banks funds should
be regarded as trust funds, and that the Chancellor of the
Exchequer should not be permitted to use those funds to go
into the market and buy up Exchequer Bills there at a dis-
_ _

count, thereby " rigging" themarketand giving a fictitious
value to that description of stock. He would ask the house
if it was right to allow those funds to be used for such a

purpose ? That which would not be right in private trans-
actions ought not to be tolerated on the part of a public func-
tionary. There also, he thought, should be a body of com-
missioners appointed as trustees to this national fund, who
would be able to devoto their time to this important duty.

(Hear, hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
right hon. gentleman the member for Wiltshire complained
that savings banks were ztoi- properly regulated. He (the
Chancellor of the Exchequer) (Omitted this, but the question

was as to the mode in which it cc.iuld be done. But on the
22d of June, when the house was overloaded with business,
was it fair to ask the Government to solve all the difficult
problems connected with this intricate subject. When a
committee had been moved for on this subject it was un-
derstood that the management of savings banks was to
be the subject of consideration, but their report referred
only to the financial dealings of the money invested in

those savings banks, while no reference whatocer was
made to the management of those banks, nor was
any one of the five Chancellors of the Exchequer summoned

to give their opinions before that committee. He, there-
fora, did not think that the report of the committee was en-
titled to the respect which an hon. gentleman supposed.
Lord Monteagle was Chancellor of the Exchequer 24 years
ago, and yet he was not asked by the committee to give any
opinion. Sir Alexander SpearmaZibad been referred to, and
although an able man he was not a responsible officer, and
the committee should have asked the .opinion of men who
held responsible positions in conneetior, with financial mat-
ters. The question was this, were they ,i-,0 be considered as
trustees or bankers. If in the former character they must
act with reasonable discretion; but he doubttld if it was pos-
sible to place themselves in the character of L." 110
tees. The
sums in the savings banks were by law the prop'er'typrop'er'tyof the
Commissioners of the National Debt, and if they"
wero to
make these funds the property of the depositors, the! deP°-
sitors would be liable to the fluctuations of the rise ant. fall
of the funds. The assets in the hands of the Commission ors
of the National Debt were less than the amount of the liabi-
lities, and it would be a breach of public faith if they trans-
ferred the powers of the National Debt Commissioners to a
new commission. Further, he would say that the mana-
gers of the savings banks should not be held liable for the
funds in the bank. The present commission was analogous
to many other commissions which Parliament had thought
fit to constitute, where the responsibility was fixed upon
the adviser of the Crown to whose department the matter
belonged. There was not a power given by the bill at all,
except one or two provisions of which no notice had been
taken ; because, in point of fact, they were altogether minor
provisions. At the same time, many powers were with-
drawn from the Chancellor of the Exchequer. A large
portion of the stocks at present under the control of the
Chancellor t f the Exchequer were placed by the bill en-
tirely beyond his control. He would not enter fur-
ther into the particulars of the bill except to re-
mind the house of what were its objeets. At the
present moment there was no perfect title in law
attached to depositors of savings banks, although they had
a perfect and absolute title in all assets held by the com-
missioners. The bill proposed to give them a perfect title,
first of all in all assets in the hands of the commissioners,
then in the State deposit account, and thirdly, if necessary,
upon the funds of the State itself. The next object of the
bill was to give a true account of the national debt and to
rectify that account absolutely once in every year. Ho felt
quite sure that the bill would continue to receive the fa-
vourable consideration of the house through its remaining
stages.

Mr. T. BARING said the right hon. gentleman had
stated that this committee was appointed to the exclusion
of those whe ought to have been members, and complained
that no Chancellor of the Exchequer had been placed on it.
(The Chancellor of the Exchequer denied that he had said
so.) Tho fact was the committee was appointed by a col-
league of the right hon. gentleman, and he believed tho
Chancellor of the Exchequer was excluded for the reason
that the committee should report in accordance with the
feelings of the house. It was therefore too much for the
right hon. gentleman to throw discredit upon the report of
committees of that house. They wanted to know whether
these funds were in the hands of the trustees for national
purposes, and he was glad to hear that every depositor was
secure in the deposit of his money. He had Government
security, and that was the best security he could possibly
have. The right hon. gentleman had said that this was a.
bill to make things more perfectly secure, but he denied
that such was the case.
Mr. AYRT ON said in paint of fact the commissioners
had not reported very favourably on this bill, and he was
of opinion that the right hon. gentleman had made a nail'
take. This was scarcely a necessary bill, because, if the
Chancellor of the Exchequer had pledged himself to do
what this clause provided for, that would have been 8U
cient.

Mr. COLLINS said the general opinion of the house was
against the bill, and therefore he moved that the house go
into committee on the bill that day three months.
The house divided, when the umbers were—
For the motion
_ _

For the amendment
Majority
Mr. TURNER defended the committee, of which the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, he regretted to say, bed
spoken in rather disparaging terms. The report was ap-
proved of by the leading banks of the country, and there'
fore he hoped he would withdraw the bill.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS hoped the right hon. gentlemen
would not withdraw the bill.
The house then went into committee on the bill.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY hoped the point as to the for'
oration of the committee would be discussed now. He moYed
that clauses 1,2, and 3 should be postponed.
The CHANCELLOR of,the EXCHEQUER felt die•
inclined to alter the practice of 40 years. He considered
that the proper way to proceed with the bill would be to
take the clauses in the regular order in which they stood'
It had been said that the country owed £800,000,000, but
the real fact was not that they owed £Boo,ooo,ooo—for that
was not so—but that they owed a much less amount, and
the object was to secure interest of 3 per cent. upon that.
The course now proposed was only another mode to effect
the destruction of the bill. (No, no.)
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said the right hon. gentleman
was under a misapprehension in supposing that his object
was to effect the destruction of the bill. His object, on the
contrary, was to establish such a machinery as would take
it out of the power of any Chancellor of the Exchequer to
meridle with and deal in the funds in the savings bangs
without the consent of the depositors. (Hear, hear.) He
trusted that the house would support him in his amend-
ment to postpone the three clauses in question for further
consideration and discussion.
Sir C. WOOD said the hon. baronet was mistaken in the
view which he had taken of the objects of his right hen'
friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He (Sir C: Wood)
was of opinion that it was not desirable to postpone the
clauses, but to take them in the order in which they stood,
and discuss them clause by clause; sad if the course which
his right hon. friend proposed was adopted by the house,
the depositors in savings banks would have far better seen"
rity for their deposit than they had ever hitherto had,
namely, the national security for 3 per cent.
Mr. S. ESTCOURT was of opinion that the proposal of
his hon. friend the member for Evesham was right, and he
should support it.
After a few words from the CHANCELLOR, of the ExcUE"
QUER,

Mr. T. BARING said his hon. friend the member for
Evesham was quite right in saying he would take the sense
of the house on the question of the postponement of the
three first clauses, and he hoped his hon. friend would press
his motion to a division.
After a few words from Sir F. GOLD&M'D and Sir K.
WILLOUGHBY, the committed divided--
For the postponement of clause 1 49
Against it
Majority against .... *-24
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then
moved that the Chairman report progress, and ask leave to

sit again.
The house then resumed.
UNIVERSITIES AND COLLEGE ESTATES BILL.
The house went into committee on this bill, the several
clauses of which were agreed to with slight verbal amend-
ments, after which the house resumed, and the bill was
reported.

RAILWAY CHEAP TRAINS, &c., BILL.
This bill was read a second time, and ordered to be cow•
mitted.

TITHE COMMUTATION BILL.
The amendments to this bill were further considered,
and the bill ordered to be read a third time.
CRIMINAL LUNATIC ASYLUMS BILL.
This bill was read a third time and passed.

VOTES FOR DISQUALIFIED CAN LIDATES BILL.

The bill was read a second time.
REFRESHMENT HOUSES AND WINE LICENCES
(SCOTLAND).

The LORD ADVOCATE moved that the resolution re-
ported from the committee of ways and means on the 15th
day of May last be read, and that leave be given to bring
in a bill for granting to her Majesty certain duties on wine
licences and refreshment houses, and for regulating the
licensing of refreshment houses, and the granting of wine
licences in Scotland.

The motion was agreed to, and the Lord Advocate after-
wards brought in'the bill, which was read a first time.
The house adjourned at a quarter before one oclock.

LONDON: Printed and Published by MURDO YOUNG
of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at The Sun Office, No. 112 •
Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, in the county of
mimief4o7, Saturday, tune 23, 1860.