The Sun.
London, England, 1860-02-14 00:00:00

has temporarily deprived us. (Hear, hear.) Let me, in the
first place, as an important point for our consideration, give
the committee some idea of what other nations really possess.
There is, happily, no longer any mystery in these matters.
(Hear, hear.) I rejoiced when the right hon. baronet oppo-
site gave us last year the fullest information about our own
and foreign navies, and shall follow his example. I may also
state that foreign nations have no sort of hesitation in show-
ing us their dockyards. An idea at one time prevailed that
the French did not like us to state publicly in Parliament
the extent and composition of their navy. Only two years
ago, in anticipation of a discussion in this house, and know-
ing there was some little difference of opinion as to the
amount of the French force, I wrote to the French Minister
of Marine, asking whether he would have any objection to
give me a list of the French navy. He sent me, in reply, the
name and force of every ship in the navy. (Hear, hear.)
What I am about to state, therefore, need excite no appre-
hension, as being likely to give the least offence to other
nations. I begin with France. The French navy is really
becoming very powerful. (Hear, hear.) At the present
time the French have 32 ships of the line afloat and five
building; 34 frigates afloat and 13 building; five iron-
cased ships—of which I shall have occasion to speak pre-
sently—building ; 17 corvettes afloat and two building; 39
gunboats afloat and 29 building ; five floating-batteries
afloat and four building; 31 transports, 86 avisos afloat
and three building. All these aro steam• vessels ; 224 are
afloat and 61 building. (Hear.) We have reason to be-
lieve that most of those which are building might be
launched within a few weeks, but I confine the force at the
immediate disposal of the French to 244 ships. It is true
that if any gentleman were to inquire at the French Ad-
miralty, he would be told that they had only nine ships-of-
the-line at sea, the rest being in reserve; but we k hould
never lose sight of the fact that every one of those 244
vessels could be manned and sent to sea in a very few weeks.
(Hear, hear.) " Ships in reserve" is a very good term for the
French, and I do not quarrel with it, but in one sense
of the word those ships aro parfoetly ready.
The result is, therefore, that the French have 214
steam-vessels which, if hostilities were to break
out, which God forbid—and wo have, indeed, every
reason to believe that no such eventuality will occur—could
be manned and sent to sea within a very few weeks, some of
them within a few days. (Hear, hear.) But there is
anothea Power which is making great struggles to create a
steam navy. I mean Russia. We aro informed on ♦ery
good authority that the Russians have nine ships of the line
afloat and nine building; 18 frigates afloat, and three build-
ing; 10 corvettes, afloat and 11 building; 30 small vessels,
of which we do not know the force, afloat ; 112 gunboats
afloat, and 26 building ; eight transports. The total is 18:
steam vessels afloat and 48 building. That is a very for

Laidable navy, and should be taken into consideration when

we:are discussing what amount of force we ought to main-
tain at sea. (Hear.) England, as is well known, has a late
years been endeavouring to form reserves at a vast expense.
First of all, the right hon. baronet the member for Carlisle
established the continuous service ; then we had Coast
Volunteers. Up to the present time the last-mentioned
scheme has net been very successful. I mention this sub-
ject now, instead of waiting until I referred to our own force
in order to show the distinction between ourselves, who
really have, so to speak, no reserves, and the French and
Russians, who have vast bodies of men at their immediate
disposal. (Hear.) lam obliged to say that before stating
the force which we have in commission, and which, accord-
ing to my calculation, is that which may fairly be compared
with what the French have afloat. The distinction between
the fleets of the two countries is this—that while all the
French ships which are afloat can he manned at very short
notice, it is only those which we have in commission which
are in a similar position. On the first of December last we
had in commission tho following steamships—l exclude sail-
ing vessels altogether—line-of-battle ships, 27; frigates,
43 ; sloops, small vessels, and gunboats, 94 ; total 164,
being an increase of 46 vessels as compared with the
number of smaller ships in commission on lho Ist of
December, 1856. In addition, we had on the Ist of
February, 1859, the guardehips, the Coastguard
tenders and cruisers, all steam-vessels, making
a total of 244 steamships in commission. Since that date
we have commissioned one line-of-battle ship and two fri-
gates. Ido not think that can be called anything like an
undue or improper force. The force which we have for the
defenee of our own shores, including, with the permission
of sny gallant friend the member for Southwark (Sir C.
Napier) the Mediterranean squadron, is as follows :-27
line-of-battle ships, 14 frigates and corvettes, and 29 sloops
and gunboats ; total 70, which is a very respectable force.
Of the 27 line-of-battle ships which we keep going back-
wards and forwards, 14 are at home and 13 in the Mediter-
ranean. In addition to this force we have the 10 Coast-
guard blockships which ate very useful for the defence of
our harbour—(hear, hear)—and 17 or 18, or sometimes 20
tenders, gunboats, and cruisers. In China we have 14
frigates and 41 sloops ; total, 65 vessels; and upon other
stations, some at Vancouver's Island, some on the North
American station, and some at other places, we have three
line-of-battle ships, 19 frigates and corvettes, and 32 sloops
and gunboats—total 54. This is the force which we have to
oppose an enemy. God forbid that I should use that word as
though any opposition was likely to occur—this is the force
we maintain at sea in comparison with the forces of France
and Russia. We have of line-of-battle ships 48 afloat, and
11 building, and we expect within the next month to launch
two more, which will make 50 afloat. Of frigates we have
84 afloat and 9 building or convc rting ; steam blockships,
9. afloat ; iron-cased vessels, 4 building ; corvettes, 16
afloat, and 6 building; sloops, 45 screw and 35 paddle,
total 80 afloat and 15 building; small vessels, 27 afloat;
gunboats, 169 afloat and 23 building ; floating batteries, 8
afloat; transports, troopships, tenders, yachts, &c., screw
18, paddle 43, total 61; screw mortar ships, 4 afloat.
Supposing the committee is pleased to consent to these
estimates, we hope to add to the navy before the end
of the next financial year 10 line-of-battle ships, 12 1
frigates, 4 iron- cased ships, 4 corvettes, 15 sloops, and !
23 gun-vessels and gunboats. That includes the con ;
version of four line•of-battle ships and four frigates. With I
regard to the estimates generally, before I turn to the par • 1
ticular votes, I wish only to state to the committee that they
will find that the great increase arises upon three votes,
those referring to the number of men, the building of ships,
and the transport of troops. This expenditure is very large,
but I hope it is of a temporary and special nature, conse-
quent upon the hostilities with China. Ido not enter into ;
the question as to the policy of these hostilities, but I think
that, under the circumstances, it is right for the Admiralty
to present an estimate which will be adequate to the per-
formance
of the services that may be required. (Hear.)
I will now ask the committee to turn to vote No. 1, upon ;
which there is an increase of no less than:£110,000. Wo ask i
for an increase of 11,700 men and bays, of which number
we propose to add to the fleet, 8,000 seamen, 1,000 marines,
and 2;000 boys (this last addition being in accordance with
the recommendation of the Royal commission as to the esta-
blishment of the training ships), 100 additional Coast-
guardsmen afloat, and 600 on shore. The Coastguards..
Men on shore are to replace the old Custom-house civi-
lians, who are being superannuated. The Board of Ad-
miralty have given to the question of the number of men
required the most serious consideration, and that which has
been asked for is only enough to man the ships in commis-
sion, and to carry out another recommendation oftho Royal
commission, that we should maintain a reserve of seamen in
our own ports. (Hear.) We hope we shall be enabled to
keep up a force at sea according to the numbers I have men-
tioned, perhaps with sone little increase here and there, as
well as a reserve of seamen in our home ports ; end in addi •
tion we hope to be able to maintain a body of marines not
lets than 6,000 as a home force.

. .
Sir J. PAKINGTON.—What would you state as the
average number of the home force ?
Lord CLARENCE PAGET.—We hope to have a re-
serve of 10,000 men over and above what are employed on
active service. Of course it is impossible to say exactly
whit will be the force available, but it is the desire of the
Ad miralty to carry out the recommendation of the Royal com-
mission, that there should be a considerable reserve of sea-
men in the home ports, and available for any emergency. In
connexion with vote No. 1, we propose to increase the pay
of the masters. engineers, pay-masters, and chaplains of the
Royal Navy. Last year my right hon. friend opposite (Sir
J. Pakington) proposed what has given very general satis-
faction in the navy, an increase in the pay of the surgeons
of the navy. It was a great misfortune, however, that ho
overlooked the claims of three other classes of officers who
labour under the same disadvantages as the surgeons—that
is to say, to whom the higher ranks of the service are prac-
tically, if not absolutely, closed. A very strong reason why
we should improve the position of the assistant-masters is
to be found in the scarcity of these officers which the Navy
Zist exhibits. They aro men of great respectability and
high education, and they naturally prefer the merchant set.-
viee to the navy. The same remark holds good of the en-
gineers, who do not care to give up the higher pay which
they got in the merchant service to come into the navy. As
L° Paymasters, lhere is no difficulty in procuring them, but
they are in the same social position, and it is impossible to
leave them out of view in framing the scheme. The prope-
ls' is that there should be a small increase of pay to each of
~those classes The change will consist chiefly in putting
then in a higher position, with their present pay,—that is
to say, they will be allowed to count towards their master's
Pay fer the time they have been second masters, and so on
with the paymasters and engineers. It is proposed they
should have the advantage of counting the time during
Which they have acted before we have confirmed their rank,
and also part of the time they have been assistants, which
Will be a great boon to these officers. If her Majesty should
Unction the arrangement I will lay it on the table. The
cost of this increase will be only some £25,000. I do not
know, that the scheme will give unbounded satisfaction.
Seine of the parties concerned may think it a rather
Laggardly advance, but it is all the Government think it
Ilea to propose. The item for good conduct pay to petty
f,ttleers is very much the same as last year. There is ono
utrge item not in the present estimate which was very
bounty,e that of last year. I mean the half
'1 h )charge for seamen's clothing, tobacco, and
!(:
IP, 1:380 CO' is very large this year, even thong £274,594
i
it f, assumes will be repaid by seamen in the course of the
year, and I had some doubt whether it ought to fall entirely
rthe proseat estimate or be in part provided for in that of
tuft lt Year. The enormous addition to the fleet, and the gra-
eus issue of clothing exceeded the calculations of the
e..9loptroller, and our store. being exhausted, this large item
,hee Tquireci to be taken. The vote for victualling needs no
explanation than than that I have given for the previous
f". tho third vote, that for the Admiralty, there is an
Ilerease the amount of £14,000. I have received from the
as
the Navy a very curious statement
"a to the amount of superintendence both at the Admiralty
d dockyards since 1891, which shows very clearly that we
bean Much harder worked now than our predecessors used to
In 1821 the navy estimates amounted to £6,382,785—it
eery different figure from the estimates of the present day ;
rou the superintendents of the Admiralty and Navy
4rdi+ Which were then separate, consisted of not less than