The Sun.
London, England, 1860-06-15 00:00:00

in the next Parliament, to prevent the reimposition of this it. He wished to know how long the money now asked for
tax on the same footing on which it was levied now. .would enable them to go on ?
Mr. LAING—TiII the 10th or 12th of July.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—This •
subject is of so much importance, that it would not be re: Mr. A. SMITH said that if the vote were carried there
would, in effect, be no discussion on the mince e neous esti-
spectful to my hon. friend or to the house if I were to allow
mates. The subject, however, was one of v. ry great im-
you to leave the chair without saying one word with regard portance, for there had lately sprung up av:, y unsatisfac-
to what has fallen from him. There is one consideration tory manner of transacting business at th ': reasury. For-
that ought always to be borne in mind in the discussion of merly my lords sat as a board, and really I'd the acts which
the mode of assessing the income-tax that is not always so were attributed to them in the minutes ; but now, he was
vividly present to the minds of those who enter upon the informed, the business was done by the Secretary and the
discussion as it might be. lam far from mentioning it as head clerk of each particular department, the Chancellor of
decisive of the question, but it certainly is material to it, the Exchequer being supposed to exercise a control over
and it is this, that when we talk of assessing the income- the whole. He considered that the Treasury ought to be re-
tax and affording a great relief to particular persons on garded as a central authority, and he believed that the want
whom we think it bears too heavily, we do not always re- of such an authority was the reason of much that took place
member that the relief of one is, in point of fact, the impo- and was objectionable. This year the Lords of the Treasury
sition of additional burdens upon another. I know the case were less entitled to their salaries than ever, for ever since
of a member of Parliament who went to his constituents. the withdrawal of the Reform Bill they had been active in
He had been assailed in some town which he canvassed endeavouring to prevent the house from proceeding with
on the burden of schedule D, and he said nothing its business. He begged to move that the vote be reduced
could be clearer than the claims for relief of those by £15,000.
who - were assessed under schedule D. He became a Mr. BENTINCK quite agreed Si ith what had fallenfrom
county member, and he was assailed with complaints of the the hon. gentleman, and he, moreover, considered that the
injustice and the unequal pressure of the tax in schedule A. Government were themselves responsible for the position in
He replied iu like manner that nothing in his judgment which they were placed. They seemed to think that as no
could be clearer than that relief should be given to those one would wish to economise on the army and navy esti-
who were assessed under schedule A. He was afterwards mates, the only fault of which was that they were too small
pressed with the claims of the fundholders (those who re- —(oh, oh)—it would be prudent to take them first, and to '
- ceived salaries from the Government he considered as be- postpone the miscellaneous estimates, on which alone eco-
longing to schedule D), and when he was pressed with the nomy would be practicable, till the end of the session. It
case of the fundholders he said he thought nothing could appeared to him that the education and the civil service
be more invidious than to make them an exception. Well, votes were susceptible of considerable reduction ; and if the
that was a most agreeable method of handling a very hon. gentleman went to a division he would support him.
thorny question, and most conciliatory to the feelings of Mr. BAXTER deprecated a division; but he hoped that
those various classes who have been addressed in honeyed the subject .of discussing the miscellaneous estimates at an
accents by those who have a happy knack of dealing with earlier date would engage the attention of the committee
unpleasant subjec s. Of course the end of this is that if all now sitting up Atairs.
get relief from the existing standard the existing standard Mr. SPOONER wished to know whether any part of
must be raised. Now, with regard to the fault of the in- the two items, £94,000 for science and art and £4,000 odd for
come-tax and its inequalities, there are certain parts of them works and repairs about the Houses of Parliament, was in-
that are common to other taxes levied in this country, eluded in the vote. He should think it his duty to move a
though they may be mere prominent in the case of the in- very considerable diminution to those two estimates.
come-tax. There are other inequalities, some disadvan- Mr. H. BAILLIE asked whether an architect had been
tages and evils which I myself have always strongly felt, appointed in the room of Sir C. Barry, and whether any
and perhaps not more strongly than many members of this considerable works were contemplated this year in reference
house. There is a peculiar sense, a belief of the inequality to the houses of Parliament.
attaching to the imposition of this tax. Now I gather from Mr. LAING said it was not now proposed to take any-
what has been said by gentlemen in this, debate that my thing on account of the houses of Parliament, which would
hon. friend has no intention at present of moving for a come on in the usual course in class 1. The present vote
Parliamentary inquiry into the subject, and I confess I included an item of £12,000 out of the totabsum of £94,921,
think that in so doing he exercises a wise discretion. lam which would be asked for under the head of science and art.
far from saying that it would be the duty of the Govern- Mr. CHILDERS could not in the least agree with the
meat to oppose the further prosecution of the inquiry into noble lord (Lord J. Russell) in the inference which he drew
the assessment of the income-tax, if at any time it should the other night from the fact that the average reduction on
be the general desire of the house to institute that inquiry, the civil service estimates was not above £2,000 a-year. It
and not only to institute the inquiry, but to prosecute it appeared to him that it would be desirable to alter the be-
with an earnestness, an intention, and an exertion adequate ginning of the financial year from the Ist of April to the Ist
to the extreme difficulty of the subject. But in saying that of July. (Hear, hear.)
Ido not feel authorised to shut the door against a general Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said the Government had only
inquiry by the house. I must confess, as an individual, one of two courses open to them—to take a vote on account,
and I believe on the part of my colleagues, that in or to spend money without the authority of the house. He
saying this we have done all that i 3 in our power. quite agreed in all that had been said by the hon. gentle-
The hon. baronet who appeals to me in the office I hold man opposite with reference to the manner in which the
has said he hopes that the question will receive at the business of the Treasury was now transacted. Last year
hands of the Government—and especially at the hands of Mr. Wilson admitted bet:are a committee that he had by
the Finance Minister before he proposes another budget— himself made a very important contract, involving an out-
an attentive and careful consideration. Now it does happen lay of £159,000, of which one of our colonies had to pay
that at a former period it became my duty, on my behalf, £BO,OOO. That contract had given great dissatisfac ion in
in the same office I have now the honour to fill, and like- the colony, for it had proved to be a complete failure; and
wise on behalf of my colleagues, to examine the question. Mr. Wilson had avowed that though my lords were stated
Nor was I alone in that examination, because several mem- to have done this and to have dune that, no one but himself
bers of the Aberdeen Cabinet—including those who had had the least share in the matter.
paid the greatest attention to the subject of finance—were Mr. A. SMITH then withdrew his amendment.
good enough to associate themselves with me in that in- On the vote of £444,049 for new works, improvements,
guilty for the purpose of testing and sifting it to the best of and repairs in naval establiehmenta,
our power. (Hoar.) At that period nothing could be Sir J. PAK INGTON expressed an opinion in favour of
more obvi,,tzs than that it was the intention of Government the extension of our naval establishment at Chatham.
if p ssible to come to senie arrangement for the adjustment Lord C. PAGET said the attention of the Government
of this tax. A strong dieposition had been shown by those had been particularly directed to St. Mary's Creek, at
who then formed, as now, the Opposition party, to give as- Chatham, and they were taking measures to exclude the
sistauce to the reconstruction of the tax, which I now action of the sea from St. Mary's Island.
mention, not as a matter of praise or blame, but simply as Col. SYKES asked how it was that whilst there were to
an historical fact. And while tie it was the case with the be new gas works at Deptford, for which a sum of £2,500
Conservative party generally, a very large proportion of was proposed, he found a sum of £3OO also proposed for gas.
the Liberal party were in the abstract favourable to the There were similar charges for other dockyards, some of
eame opinioes, therefore there was the clearest intention on which he thought were excessive.
the part of the Government to have proposed some p'.an, if Mr. WHITBREAD said that it was found the Govern-
we had found ourselves able to construct such a plan con . went could manufacture their own gas at Pembroke Dock-
sistently with justice. It is very difficult to assert with yard at the rate of 3s. per 1,000 feet, and in other places,
confidence a negative on niost subjects, and particularly on I where they could get gas at that rate from manufacturers,
a subject of politics—most of all on the subject of taxa . he thought it was unnecessary to take steps for its menu •
tiou—but we did come to the conclusion that it was not facture by the Government. (Hear.) The sum of £3OO to
practicable to form any system for the general adjust- which the gallant colonel had alluded in the case of Dept-
went of the income tax with reference to the distinction t ford was for the supply of gas until the Government works
between permanent and terminable incomes without in- could be completed.
flicting a greater amount of injustice than it would cure. In reply to Mr. A. SMITH,
I ant bowel ta remind these who have taken part in this L-rd C. PAGET said that there had been no new pur-
debate, because it is a material part of the case, that, chase of land this year, but the great works at Keyhain were
in commencing the examination of it we found our- in a state of gradual progress, and a small suns of £5,000
selves confronted by this fact, that whereas, on the I was all that was taken this year to carry out part of the
whole, those who are assessed on schedule D pay on great quadrangle at Keyham. At the same time records of
less than their real income—l do not speak of cases of past outlay for the same purpose were retained on the votes.
trend, but I speak of arrangements made by the In reply to Sir J. PAXINGTON,
law which I think legitimatelyhave that effect—while those Lord C. P.A.GET said that the Government had made a
who are assessed on schedule D pay on the whole less than very fair offer for the purchase of the St. Aubyn. estate,
(hair income in almost every case, those who pay on sle- t Davenport, but they had not succeeded in obtaining it. But
du!c A pay on more than their real income. And therefore a sum of £51,000, referred to by the right hon. baronet, was
I Clink if you were to institute a severe critical analysis, taken for the purchase of land at Millbay, where it was
and pursue it to its furthest stage, you would find that the i thought desirable to extend the marine barracks.
tax really at this moment is a heavier tax on schedule A Mr. W. WILLIAMS asked what had given occasion to
th to it is on schedule D. And that is true in reference to an expenditure of sums, amounting together to £150,000,
all the property assessed on schedule A, except one de• for the Bermudas ? .
syiription of property, with regard to which lam not quite Lord C. 1-AGET explained that very extensive works
certain, I mean with regard to the return on mines. But had been in progress for seine seven or eight years at the
speaking generally on the great branches of income under Bermudas.
schedule A, that is true. With regard to one great branch Sir C. NAPIEIt asked if it were intended to consolidate
of that property, namely, house property, I must say with the various Admiralty offices into ono general office at
regard to certain classes of it I cannot deny, and indeed Whitehall ?
must firmly contend, that if there be a special case for relief Lord C. PAGET admitted the desirability of concen-
'a 111(1 is to be singled out from the rest, the strongest claim trating the offices, but the expense would be so great that
is the claim of the owners of a certain species of house pro- the Government were not prepared with any proposal at
party. I only mention that as another material—not per- present.
haps a decisive, but a material consideration to be borne in In reply to Mr. CHILDERS,
mind by those who take an interest in this question. It was Lord C. PAGET stated that it was necessary, in conse-
my fate, in 1853, I believe, for two mortal hours to occupy quence of the war with China, to keep up a great store of
the time of this house, whether fruitfully or fruitlessly Ido coal at Trincomalee. The sums that were included in the
not know, in stating in great detail the reasons that had vote for Gibraltar and Malta were absolutely necessary for
actuated the Government, and the conclusion to which they the defences at those places.
had arrived. lam bound to say that although there was Mr. RICARDO asked whether anything had yet been
then, and there is still, a great sense of the inequality of done to carry out any of the recommendations of the com-
this tax, as well as with regard to its general severity, yet missioners on the national defences. It would cost at least
on the whole since that time the public have become more twelve millions sterling to carry out all their suggestions,
impressed with a sense of the difficulty of any practical co- and as he did not suppose the Government were prepared
construction of the tax than they have been at any former to ask Parliament for such a
sum at present period, and I am disposed to think that this result is owing i like to know whether any alteration would b, he e
made ishouldthe
plans
in the main to the labours of the select committee of
plans for barrack accommodation in the various outports.
this house, which was appointed under the noti .n that a Mr. CHILDERS thought that convicts, instead of be-
reconstruction was practicable and easy. But the general ing sent to Australia, might be advantageously employed
effect of the evidence was to leave on the minds of the at Malta and Gibraltar.
committee the conviction that on the contrary, if not hope- r
M LYGON asked what provision had been made for
less, it was diffieult. And there was one, if not more than the
accommodation of the coast guardsmen.
one, highly intelligent gentleman, who was a member of
that committee, who entered into the examination with the of.
Mr. WHITBREAD said the Government had inquired
firm belief of the practicability of the reconstruction, who 1 whether other employment could not be given to the con-
quitted the committee with the firm conviction that such victs now sent to Australia, but they found that it was im-
-1 possible to do so advantageously. With regard to the coast
reconstruction would be wholly impracticable. Therefore,
after what I have said, I am sure it would be paltering with I guardsmen, the present vote would enable the Government
i
to place them in a satisfactory position in reference to cot-
the house and the country, if I were to pretend on the part I
..,_
of myself, and I believe I may say on the part of my col- tags accommodation.
leagues, to say that we see our way to the proposal of a Sir J. PAKINGTON-Net I red with the hon. member
-plan for the reconstruction of the income tax. As I said for Pontefract (Mr. Chile 4;;) tliat if there was a want of
before, if that large question which was proposed was not 1 labour at Gibraltar convicts ought to be employed upon the
entirely exhausted by the committee, and there were a gene- : Government works there instead of being sent to Australia,
ral desire on the part of the house for inquiry so serious as ; Lord C. PAGET reminded the right hon. gentleman that
to demand and to have a just claim on the differential atten- i it would be necessary before permanently increasing the
tion of the Government—if it did not extend to a recon- i number of convicts at Gibraltar to build barracks for their
struction—there might be many questions more limited I accommodation, which would entail considerable expense.
which might perhaps form the subject of an inquiry, with I The only barracks upon which the Government were at pre-
regard to which I by no means say that improvement would I sent expending large sums of money under the recommen.-
not be practicable. But as my hon. friend knows, there are ! dations of the Commissioners on the National Defences were
sanguine ideas abroad on the subject, and to those sanguine I Fort Cumberland and the Marine Barracks at Plymouth.
ideas I should not be justified in giving any further encou- i Mr. RICARDO asked if it was proposed to spend any
ragement than by saying that while I feel myself unable to sum this year in addition to the present estimates, in carry-
`give them any practical effect; Ido not wish to stand in the ing out the views of the commissioners in regard to barrack
way of those who, more fortunate than myself, may be able accommodatio to devise a plan for the purpose. With these explanations) Lord C. PAGET believed that there would be no altera-
tion thinking that my hon. friend exercised a wise discre-tion in the present navy estimates, but he was unable to
tion in not asking the house to enter into an inquiry, I close state what course would be taken in reference to the army
the remarks I have to make upon this subject. estimates.

Mr. WHALLEY observed that he did not propose an in-
quiry on schedule D merely, but an inquiry into the whole
of the schedules.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said there were no hopes of the
reconstruction of the income tax. In fact, he believed it to
be impossible, and therefore the house, if it were wise, would
get rid of it as soon as it could, and in the meantime give as
little of it as they could. He thought, however, the right
hon. gentlemanought not to aggravate the difficulties. There
was one class of persons to whom great injustice was done.
Ho meant the long annuitants, who, by the way in which
,theetax was levied, their income being about to be annihi-
nlaetvder,
rwere made to pay on a quarter's income which they
pee:l:lived. He had receiv©d numerous applications
from
B__ , Gus who had thus been unjustly charged with the
14' know whether. the Chancellor of the Exchequer
would, repay it. (Laughter.)
l he house then went into committee of supply on
THE CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES.
Mr. LAING moved that a vote be taken for £624,000 on
account for the civil servio,o,
to
ellle said it was by no means
the wish of the Government
taking sums on account, but it was thought desireable that
the house should get throughnavy
eneetict fortnight with the
remainder of the army and
asked for would only be sufficient tionlates. The amount
month,sand enable them to pay salarieesar7doth would b
heril
oovere.
a
come due in the meanwhile. There
wwonli nothing
therefore to preclude the house from passinc. itbse jll
on the details of the vote. In answer to Whaitdhehon.
gentleman had said, that these estimates were in a state of
expansion, h© might observe that the remaining class, No.
7, would not exceed the amount stated by the Chancellor
of the Exchequer in February, and consequently the whole
of these estimates would show a diminution of £350,00.
Mr. W. WI LLlA)lShati a great objection to the system
Of voting money on account ; but under the circumstances
he did not see how the govertuazt could avoid resorting to

Sir C. NA.PIEIt inquired what was the largest ship that
could enter Sheerness basin with her guns on board, at all
states of the tide. He also wished to know to what extent
it was intended to lengthen the Mole at Gibraltar.
Lord C. PAGET was unable to answer the first question
of the gallant admiral beyond stating that at present the
guns had to be taken out of large ships of war before they
entered the basin at Sheerness. Dredging works were,
however, being carried out in order to deepen the channel.
With regard to the Mole at Gibraltar, it was originally in-
tended to lengthen it by 1,000 feet ; but it was now proposed
to extend the length to 1,200 feet.
Colonel SYKES said the charges for the coal depots ap-
peared to have become permanent. He hoped it was not
supposed that the war with China would be permanent.
Then were the estimates sent home prepared by competent
parties ? Did the Admiralty place full reliance upon their
being correct ?
Admiral WALCOTT asked whether the Mole at Gibral-
tar would be sufficient in breadth for the ships that would
go there, many of them being over 300 feet in length.
Lord C. PAGET said the Mole would be very convenient
for the purposes required. As to the coal depots, he could
assure the hon. and gallant member that these estimates
had gone through the process of weeding at the Admiralty,
and probably there was not one of them that had not been
considerably cut down before coming before the committee.
There was no doubt a disposition in the colonies to ask for
large sums. He believed the coal depots would be of use in
future years.
The vote was then agreed to.
The sum of £73,000 for medicine and medical stores was
granted without any discussion.
1. ht- - the vote of £92,753 for defraying the expenses of
ighousea, and for miscellaneous naval services,
htlirtu.
institutions
had
bsaeenid
oft the greatest
similar
homes and other
ins
Dloved in the • greatest benefit to the men em-
- service, and therefore ho hoped that in future
Yearn 4 larger stun would be placed ill the est' thanat