The Sun.
London, England, 1860-08-17 00:00:00

INCOME TAX.

sities ; while to say it was a success in Ireland was an out-
rage on the understanding and experience of Irishmen.
Mr. DEASY replied with some warmth to the charges
brought by Mr. Maguire against the Commissioners, and
read the rules they laid down for instruction in mixed
schools, contending that they had never in practice deviated
from them. Referring to the memorial of the Roman Ca-
tholic prelates of Ireland, he maintained that they claimed
nothing less than the entire and exclusive control and di-
rection of the education of the laity, and he asked whether
the house or the public would accede to such a demand,
which was not admitted in Roman Catholic countries. No
Government would ever accede to it, and Parliament could
not do so without parting with its legitimate authority. As
a Catholic, he differed from the views of those who desired
the separate system contemplated by the Catholic prelates.
He believed that it would be impossible to obtain the con-
sent of Parliament to the grant of public money for schools
constructed upon such a system, or to obtain sites for
schools from which Protestants were excluded. On the
other hand Protestant schools would increase, anti all re-
strictions upon proselytism would be removed. He sug-
gested other ebjections to the change, for which he insisted
there was no reason. Not a single instance of proselytism
had been alleged, and he deprecated the change as injuri-
ous to the interests of Roman Catholics, as one to which
the Roman Catholic laity were not favourable, and which
appeared in the unpopular shape of the authoritative de-
mand of an ecclesiastical synod. _ _ _

Mr. HUBBARD gave notice that he should next session
call the attention of the house to the subject of the direct
taxation of the country, with a view to a modification of the

income tax.

SUPPLY.

- - - - - -
The report of votes in supply was brought up and re-

ceived.

THE KING OF OUDE'S ALLOWANCE

On the motion that the house resolve itself into commit-
tee of supply,
Mr. BAILLIE said he wished to know what the sum
which the Indian Government proposed to allow to the de-
posed King of Oude. After the manner in which that
prince had been treated by the Indian Government, having
been deprived not only of his territory, but his private pro-
perty—his carriages, clothes, jewels, and everything belong-
ing to him having been sold—it was proper that at least
some allowance should be made to him, and he wished to
know from his hon. friend what allowance it was proposed
to make to him.

Mr. O'FERRALL complained that Mr. Deasy had ca.

Sir C. 'WOOD said that not having received notice of the
question, he was not then in a position to give an answer.
In reply to a question by Col. FRENCH,
Mr. S. HERBERT said that the present pattern knap-
sack with stick was sealed on the l lth of May, 18:57. It
had been previously tried by regiments and depots at
home. The stick was introduced on the recommendation
of Lieutenant-General Sir G. Wetheral], then Adjutant-
General, the idea having been taken from a Swiss knap-
sack. The knapsack being an article of necessaries tho
property of the soldier, the addition of the stick to the
pack was made by degrees by the men at the recommenda-
tion of the Adjutant-General. The knapsacks were sup •
plied by the Government to recruits only, and for this
purpose contracts were entered into with certain tradesmen
for the new pattern of 1857.
RECRUITING FOR THE ARMY.
In reply to Col. DUNNE,

lumniated the prelates of the Church to which he belonged,
who had admitted that the State had a right to control the
expenditure of the money granted by Parliament. He had,
he said, been an ardent supporter of the National system at
the beginning; but the changes made in it had altered its
character and poisoned the boon of education.
Mr. BRADY contended that the Roman Catholic popu-
lation of Ireland were riot favourable to the National system.
Mr. C. FORTESCUE said he was surprised to hear the

National system attacked by Irish members—a system
which had had the happy effect of converting Ireland
from one of the worst educated to one of the best edu-

cated countries in Europe. The result of adopting the pro-
posed change would be to substitute two or three bad schools
instead of one good one, and to give an impulse to the mis-
chievous action of proselytism.
Mr. HENNESSY observed that the National sys-
tem was opposed not only by the Irish Roman Catholics,
but by the great majority of the Protestant bishops of Ire-
land. He defended the Roman Catholic bishops, who, he
contended, had only asked for the English system. Some
branches of education,—history, for example,—could not be
taught under the existing mixed system. The separate
system had been tried in Ireland with success.
Lord FERMOY was glad that Mr. Cardwell and Mr.
Deasy had spoken out, as it was important to the well-being
of Ireland that there should be no mistake as to the views
of the Government upon this subject. Although the Ro-
man Catholic hierarchy of Ireland were opposed to the Na •
tional system, it was, he said, deceiving the house and the
country to pretend that a majority of the Roman Catholic
laity, of the middle and educated classes, were not in favour
of the mixed system. If there were faults of detail in the
system, the rational course was to correct them, not to sub-
vert the principle. In the exceptional state in which Ire-
land was, a change of the mixed system would range the
population in two hostile camps.
Mr. MONSELL confessed that the National system was
a great blessing to Ireland ; but unless the system was
brought back to what it was originally intended to be, it
could not, in his opinion, be maintained. The State, with
reference to Catholics, had not been perfectly honest ; prin-
ciples had been sacrificed to conciliate the Protestants.
The O'DONOGHUE said the question was► whether the
children of the Catholics of Ireland were to be educated as
they wished, or as the Government determined.
Mr. SCULLY thought the original system had been de-
parted from.
Lord PALMERSTON said,—l do not rise to enter into
any arguments upon the question, or to add to the conclu-
sive reasonings of my right hon. friend the Attorney-
General for Ireland. I think that his arguments ought to
be conclusive to the mind of every Roman Catholic gentle-
man who wishes to see the children of Roman Catholics in
Ireland efficiently educated. The hon. member has, I
think, very unjustly charged my right hon. friend with
vituperating the Irish Roman Catholic Bishops. Now, I
am sure he very carefully guarded himself from saying
anything which could bear that construction. He expressly
said that he felt for them all that veneration and esteem
which they merit, and he directed his remarks to those
differences of opinion which exist even in Roman Catholic
countries between the clergy and laity on the subject of
education. But I did not rise to vindicate my right hon.
friend. The noble lord the member for Marylebone, in the
course of his observations, said that there ought to be no
mistake as to the opinions and intentions of her Majesty's
Government upon this question of mixed education—(hear,
hear)—and the hon. member for Tipperary added that the
matter would not rest here, but that there would be agita-
tion elsewhere for the purpose of defeating the system of
mixed education. (Hear, hear.) I think it ought to be
distinctly understood that her Majesty's Government at-
tach so much importance to this system of mixed education
in Ireland, as contradistinguished from the donominational
system in England, that they would not deem it their duty
to propose any vote upon any other principle. (Cheers.)
If education in Ireland is to be carried out mainly by the
grant of public money by the State, I say that the Govern-
ment would not feel it consistent with their duty to pro-
pose a vote for any other than the mixed system. (Cheers.)
It is asked why should a different system be pursued in
Ireland from that which is pursued in England P (Hear,
hear.) I think the difference in religious and social feel-
ings in the two countries shows that that is an idle ques-
tion, and that, in fact, it answers itself. (Hear, hear.)
There is not the same conflict of religious opinion—there
is not the same religious agitation is England which pre-
vails in Ireland, and in my opinion it is the duty of the Go-
vernment to soothe and mitigate those feelings. (Hear,
hear.) I trust that this vote will now be allowed to be
carried. I think it has been discussed sufficiently. Those
who are most adverse to the present system do not propose
to negative the vote, and I hope that the committee will
now assent to it. (Cheers.)
Colonel DICKSON said the speech of the noble lord was
a very extraordinary one. The question was rather what
system would be acceptable to the people of Ireland than
what was acceptable to the noble lord. (Hear, hear.)
The vote was then agreed to.
SPIRIT DUTIES BILL.
This bill, as amended, was considered and agreed to.
EAST INDIA LOAN BILL.

_ .
Mr. S. HERBERT said that the report of the commis-
sioners on recruiting for the army would be laid on the table
•f the house, if possible, before the end of the present ses-
sion of Parliament, but if not, early next session.
RECRUITING FOR GARIBALDI.

Mr. FIENNESSY, in calling attention to this subject,
said that the Government had declared thqir opinion with
regard to enlistment for foreign service in a despatch which
the noble lord (Lord J. Russell) addressed on the 7th of
December lak to Lord A. Loftus. In that despatch the
noble lord desired Lord A. Foftus to ask these questions of
the Austrian Government—whether the Austrian Govern-
ment were cognisant of the fact that enlistment was going
on in the Austrian dominions for the Papal and Neapolitan
armies ; whether the Austrian Government considered such
a pr reeding to be legal or illegal ; and whether the Austrian
Government had given their consent to such enlistment.
He (Mr. Hennessy) noiv ventured to put a similar ques-
tion to her Majesty's Government. Within the last few days
a letter appeared in the newspapers from Capt. Styles, an
aide-de-camp to Gen. Garibaldi, the object of which was to
induce young men, and especially rifle volunteers, as well
as soldiers who might wish to gather laurels, to take up
arms in the cause of Italian independence. The letter con-
tained a notification from Gen. Garibaldi himself, dated
from the now famous Melazzo, to this effect :—" Capt.
Edward Styles goes to England with my authority. His

object is to render advice and guidance to those who
may wish to come here to fight for the liberties of this
country." He did not wish to say a word how far Capt.
Styles had violated the law, or how far those men who
were associated with him had violated the Jaw. That
was a question more properly for the law officers of the

Crown. He would only say that the Act of 59th Geo.
111., the act bearing on this question, was one which
he should at any time ask to have enforced. He would re-
mind the house that in the month of May last the Attor-
ney-General stated distinctly that any person in this coun-
try who enlisted in the service of a sovereign who was at
amity with the Queen was guilty of a breach of the com-
mon law of England. He was anxious to know from the
Government whether they were aware that such enlistment
was now going on ; also, whether they had given their con-
sent to such enlistment, and what was their opinion as to
the great question of international law. He admitted that
General Garibaldi had exhibited qualities of heroism and
valour which entitled him to respect ; but they knew that
at this moment the whole foreign affairs of Europe were
complicated by his movements, and that the two great
powers, Austria and Prussia, were determined to act in con-
cert against what he (Mr. Hennessy) conceived to be an
illegal proceeding.

Sir J. SHELLEY said before the noble lord answered
the questions of the hon. member he wished to remark that
the hon. gentleman never said a word *hen volunteers were
going from Ireland to join the papal army, which was a case

just as applicable as the one he had brought forward. All
he could wish was—which he said from the bottom of his
heart—that the gallant fellows who were now going out to
support Garibaldi would be better treated than those Irish-
men who had gone out to support the Pope.
Lord PALMERSTON—In answer to the question of the
hon. gentleman, I have to say that her Majesty's Govern-
ment have no knowledge of any enlisting going on in this
country for the service of General Garibaldi, nor are any
persons who are understood to be in her Majesty's service
engaged in enlistment. As to any soldiers enlisting to serve
with General Garibaldi, that would be an act of desertion,
punishable by the military law of the country. The hon.
member has put a case upon one or two grounds ; first, as
bearing upon the provisions of the Foreign Enlistment Act.
Now, as was stated by the hon. baronet (Sir J. Shelley), any
persons going to Sicily to join General Garibaldi, are pre-
cisely in the same position as those Irishmen who went
to serve the Papal Government. The hon. gentleman
knows the difficulties of enforcing that act. It would be
necessary to prove that the enlistment took place in this
country. The possibility of obtaining any evidence to that
effect was avoided by those who went to Rome by their de •
Glaring that they went for the purpose of being employed
on railway works, whereas unfortunately no railway works
were being carried. The hon. member has put it on
another ground, that, namely, of international law. The
house will recollect that my hon. and learned friend the
Attorney-General has shown that there is a difficulty in
bringing the principle of international law to bear upon
any particular act. All I can say is, that we know nothing
of any enlistment going on in this country, and if we knew
of any enlistment for any foreign State, or assumption of a
State, we should feel it our duty to put the provisions of
that act in force, and in doing that weshould thereby bring
these persons within the practical provisions of the act.
(Hear.)

Mr. KINNAIRD wished to know if any official informa-
tion had been received by the Government of the landing
of Garibaldi on the shores of Calabria.

Lord PALMERSTON—Nothing beyond the telegraphic

reports.
Mr. SCULLY did not object to gentlemen going out to
the Pope or to General Garibaldi. He thought what was
cues for the Irish goose should be sauce for the English

gander. He hoped with the hon. member for Westminster
(Sir J. Shelley) that those who went out to Gen. Garibaldi
would be much better treated than those who went to Rome.
With regard to the remarks of the noble lord (Lord Pal-
merston) all he would say was that he deprecated any in-
termeddling of this country in foreign affairs. But the noble
lord must either know nothing at all of what was going on
in this country with respect to Garibaldi, or he must wib
fully shut his eyes to it. He (Mr. Scully) saw advertised
in the newspapers of Saturday last a long list of subscrip-
tions of money sent to Garibaldi, and in that list the first
name was Viscountess Palmerston—(a laugh)—the second
was the Countess of Shaftesbury, and the third was Mrs.
Gladstone. (Laughter.)
NATIONAL EDUCATION (IRELAND) GRANT.
Mr. CARDWELL, in rising to move for a vote of
£270,000, for the united national educational system of
Ireland, said the vote showed an increase of about £21,000
over the vote of the preceding year, and without going too
much into detail he might say that £17,000 of that sum
was to provide improved provisions for local teachers in
Ireland. He pointed out how much greater the results
were which were obtained for the sum voted for education
in Ireland, as compared with the much larger sum voted
for England. There had been an increase in the number
of schools, which was 88, and that of scholars 3,112; while
the total number of children educated was 570,000. The
right hon. gentleman then adverted at some length to the
question raised by the advocates of separate instruction,
especially dwelling on the opinion expressed by that section
of the Established Church in Ireland which declined to
participate in the system of national education, and by that
body of the Roman Catholic Church which was represented
la the memorial to the Irish Government praying for a
separate system ; and ho argued strongly in favour of the
general plan.
rittiMAGUIRE called the attention of the house to the
of Irel al addressed by the catholic archbishops and bishops
ar'd to her Majesty's Government on the necessity of
substituting aZparate or denominational system of educa-
tion for the
memorial onstin system, to the answer given to that
aairethof the Goi,ernment, and to the re-
joinder of the arcto
asps and bishops to that answer, and
at length objected
by
exctriticised the s; stem of national
education, showing
whole tendency of the instructionracts from the books that the
towarJs Protestanism.
Mr. V. SCULLY rose at half-past one o'clock to state
that he intended to move, and
should at the proper time
provided
bmyo move,
ithatain Parliament
nn
tf
theor opinionpu bio eocifu
et ha
teit
in should be so all funds
cordirocselytism
administered as to banish aanlipcostztou of
from the. natixial 4ys tom,
tien from clergy and laity of all religious
.denotmion-olieorna-
As tha other rsoie.ty of the.representation of the county of
Cork, Cork, he conrd not endorse the opinion of Nr. Deasy. He
spoke at some length, and having been interrupted, said
that if duo attention was not
paid to him he should be
obliged still further to extend his observations. He argued
with great energy against the mixed system of education,
which he contended produced religious rancours and :mime-

This bill was read a second time.
PEACE PRESERVATION (IRELAND) ACT (1858)

AMENDMENT BILL.

Oa the motion for the third reading of this bill,
Mr. BLAKE moved that it be read a third time that
day three months.

The house divided :
For the third reading
Against it
The bill was then passed.
CONJUGAL RIGHTS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
This bill, as amended, was considered and agreed to.
TRUSTEES, MORTGAGEES, Eze.,,BILL.
On the motion of Mr. MALttis, the order for the second
reading of this bill was discharged, and the measure was
then withdrawn.
LAW AND EQUITY BILL.
This bill passed through committee.
TITLES TO LAND (SCOTLAND) ACT (1858)
AMENDMENT (No. 2) BILL.

This bill was recommitted for the insertion of amend-

manta.

MAYNOOTH COLLEGE BILL.

The Lords' amendments were read and agreed to.
ATTORNEYS, SOLICITORS, PROCTORS, AND

CERTIFICATED CONVEYANCERS BILL.

• This bill, as amended, was considered, and some addi-
tional clauses and amendments were inserted.
SALE OF GAS ACT AMENDMENT BILL.

Progress in this bill was resumed, and

Mr."CRA.UFURD having agreed to expunge a proviso,
and thus to convert the measure into a more suspension bill,
it passed through committee.
_ ROMAN CATHOLIC CHARITIES BILL.

On the order for resuming the consideration of this bill,
Sir G. BOWYER moved that the debate be adjourned
until the Attorney-General and other learned gentle i.en
were present. The first clause had been introduced by a
blunder; and if the debate were continued it would pro•
bably last till six o'clock.
'Lord PALMERSTON said that the Aitsrney-General
had been obliged to go away, but his learned friend had
told him that he was astonished at the want of judgment
which those showed who objected to the first clause.
(Laughter.)
After 'some discussion the house divided—
For the adjournment
Against it•
Majority
Captain STACKPOOL moved the adjournment of the
house.
Sir G. BOWYER, in seconding the motion, stated that
he had told some of his friends that they might go home,
in consequence of an admission of the Solicitor-General that
it was too late to take the bill. _ _ _

The SOLICITOR-GENERAL denied that he had ever
made such a statement. The hon. gentleman was under a
complete delusion, perhaps owing to the lateness of the
hour. (A laugh.)
After a debate,
Mr. LAING observed that if the motion were tarried he
should not have another opportunity of stating that the
Government proposed the house should sit on Saturday at
12 o'clock.
For the adjournment
Against it
Majority. .. —l3
Mr. HENNESSY then moved that the houso bo counted,
and, there being only 27 members present,
The house adjourned at 26 minutes to 4 o'clock.

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TIDE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY gVENING, AUGITSII 17;4'1860,

which is now being formed, and to which Lord
Elcho has dravin such especial attention.—l am,
&c., SOHN VILLIERS SHELLEY.
House of Commons, Aug. 16.

Sir,--I have read with much interest the letter on
the above subject from that able and zealous sup-
porter of the Volunteer movement, Lord Elcho,
which appeared in your paper of to-day, together
with the editorial comments which it called forth.
In this, as in most other matters, experience is the
best of all teachers, and this emboldens me to
think that the details I can lay before you may
be useful to others of your readers.

Of the three modes suggested by Lord Elcbo I
cannot but consider the first two objectionable, as
perpetuating that distinction between different
classes which I am sure it is the object of his Lord-
ship and of all those who have at heart the per-
manence of the Volunteer movement to do away
with. Any artisan who finds members of the corps
he may join allowed to wear (even off parade) a
" more ornamental and expensive dress," which his
own means preclude him from adopting, must be
constantly reminded thereby of his own inferiority
in social rank--at least, in one of its principal
symbols, the purse. The third mode, that of estab-
lishing corps confined to no class, but with limited
expenses, is much more advisable, and has been
carried out with signal success in various metropo-
litan districts, as well as in some provincial towns.
The corps which I have the honour to command
was organized on this principle in the populous su-
burb of Deptford, and was finally established on
31st of March last. Though intended to afford
facilities to the artisan class to become Volunteers,
and therefore generally recognized as an artisan
corps, it is not exclusively composed of that class,
but enrols in its ranks, side by side with them,
several other classes of the community. The mem-
bers are supplied with tunic, trousers, and cap, of
stout Althoff cloth, glazed cap over, patent leather
waist-belt, with white metal ornaments, all after
the battalion pattern, the cost of which is £2 145.,
and can be paid by weekly instalments of ls. 6d.
There is no entrance fee, and the annual subscrip-
tion is only ss. The committee have considered
it inadvisable to offer any pecuniary assistance to
the members in the purchase of their uniforms, be-
lieving that this would trench on the independent
spirit which each true Volunteer ought to possess.
I shall only mention one fact to show how
beneficially such an amalgamated organisation
works. A gentleman in the neighbourhood having
kindly given the corps the use of a loampit on his
property as a short practice range, it was deter-
mined, in order to increase its security, to raise a
wall on the top of the sand cliff (about 30 feet high)
against which the targets will rest. The same
gentleman having liberally allowed the burrs, or
spoilt bricks, from his bnckfield adjoining to be
made use of, the members, with thorough Volun-
teer spirit, resolved to do the work themselves.
The result of seven evenings' work has been the
building of a wall 64 feet long, 6 feet wide at the
base, and averaging 10 feet high, an embankment
at the back, commencing at 20 feet from the base,
being half completed. In this the only assistance
received has been from two or three members of
adjoining companies, and eight or 10 labouring
men in the neighbourhood, who have given their
aid voluntarily and gratuitously. In the progress
of the work, honorary members, privates, and offi-
cers (even including the chaplain), merchants,
clerks, shopkeepers, and artisans laboured cordially
and vigorously, building, digging, and wheeling
together in all weathers, and after, in many cases,
a hard day's work ; and I am certain that the mem-
bers of the company will enter all the more zea-
lously into the musketry practice at the butt when
they have, by the work of their own hands, in-
sured its safety and efficiency.
I may further mention that the company took
part both in the review by her Majesty and in the
sham fight at Chiselhurst, each member paying his
own expenses.

In the hope that these circumstances may afford
encouragement to those meditating the establish-
ment of Artisan Volunteer Corps in London or else-
where.—l remain, sir, your obedient servant,
H. E. IkIoNTGomERIE, Captain,
Commanding 34th Kent Rifle Volunteers.
Deptford, Aug. 15.