The Sun.
London, England, 1856-03-07 00:00:00

with him in thanking the noble lord for the clear and lucid

msuner in which he had brought this question forward.
(Cheese.) Ho did not moan to enter into a discussion
the question then, as the noble lord had stated it was not
his intention to ask the house to express an opinion that
night on the resolutions he had submitted to them ; but
there were several point?, on which he wished to hat e
some further information—that of the financial part, suit
the manner in which ho proposed to deal with that large
class who did not go to school at all. He (Mr. Henley)
had heard with satisfaction the expression of opinion from
the noble lord, who was a great authority on the question,
that whatever system be adopted, it must be bas-d on the
great principles of Christianity. (Loud cheers.) There
were no parents in the country but coeld readily under-
stand the benefit of their children learning the elements
of arithmetic, with reading and writing, but if they
added the elements of certain sciences, and a competent
knowledge of political economy —(lunehter) they might
talk for a week before they made parents of the humbler
classes understand what they meant. It was no use saying
to a man, do not take your child away from school at ten
years, because if ho remains he will be taught those
sciences. He would probably reply--sir, nip boy can earn
as. a-week. I do understand the necessity of tilling the
child's belly, but political economy is a thing I do nut un-
derstand. therefore I think it better to let him earn some
money. He (Mr. Henley) did not think the noble lord had
at all overstated the number of children who did not at-
tend school ; he thought he had rather understated it. He
should be glad to give the resolutions all the consideration
which their importance demanded, as well as on account of
the character and ability of the noble lord who introduced
therm to the house. But he thought the noble lord had
gone somewhat out of his immediate object in dealing with
the charities of England. The no blelord's plan opened a
wide door for such a diversion of funds from the charities
as might in some persons' minds appear something like
spoliation. (Hoar.) The noble lord, in touching upon the
subject, was hardly fair upon honourable and learned mem-
bers of that house, from whom they received the greatest
possible assistance. He said that, " in consequence of the
large infusion of the Chancery element in that and the
other House of Parliament, he was hopeless of getting any
such matter satisfactorily arranged to his mind." He (Mr.
Henley) thought such es assertion unworthy of the noble
lord. He thought the principle of the Chancery element
in that house was the principle of human justice. The
house had sanctioned that principle of justice which the
Chancery element had }drought so proinivently before it.
He believed that the reason why that element had induced
the Houses of Parliament not to sanction the spoliation of
charities, had no such motive as that attributed to it by
the noble lord. The noble lord, in his eight or nine resolu-
tions, had given them a thesis far larger than they were
(Ale to master without mature consideration, they should
therefore be bettor able to discuss the question when he
should please to invite them. It was a subject upon
which they all had but one interest, that of doing what
was beet for the humbler classes of their fellow-country-
men, that they might have their moral and intellectual fa-
culties developed so as to be able to well discharge their
duty in the station to which it has pleased God to call
them.
Lord R. GROSVENOR, in calling the attention of the
house to a portion of the system of education which the
noble lord below him had mot noticed, begged to thank biro
for the manner in which he had brought the question be-
fore the house. He did not think the noble lord had at-
tempted too much ; if the question had not been brought
in all its bearings before the house, they should have bees
inadequately prepared to enter into a general discussion.
The hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Henley) had complained
of introducing the elements of science acid political eco-
nomy into the primary schools of the country. He con-
curred with the hon. gentleman that that was a fault in
their system of education. He should like to see the con-
tinental system follewed of primary schools, and others of
a higher character, where when talent developed itself in
the primary schools it might be cultivated and obtain the
position of respectability to which it was entitled, and
where it might be available for the benefit of the commu-
nity. In consequence of the want of these schools in this
country the talent of the lower classes remuined without
being brought forward. He liOped the noble lord would
not lose sight of that point in any measure he might bring
forward. The necessity of &hunting the lower classeslwai
_so imperative that he really thought come compulsory sys-
tem of enforcing the attendance of their children would be
justifiable. He thought also that the plan of not allowing
! nonfit•re to eztploy labourers who did pot poneas 4 oat*

cafe of attendance at school might he resorted to with ads
vantage. The employment of evening sclnSols was also
an object of grout importance in any systeur`• of national
education, aid he trusted that in the discussion which
would take place ou the matter those points would ne
fully considered.
Mr. ADDERLEY thought the merit of the .noble lord's
rocolutious was that they were not new. After having led
the house for many years through resolutions sad Eehtet
committees to consider thisubject in every possible shape,
he now led them back to his orieinal form of resolution.
There were many modes of arriving at a complete system
of national education, and he (Mr.'Adderley) had hoped,
when the great and important city of. Matciester seine
years ago petitioned Parliament to be alloWed to rate itself
for the purpose of education within the city, • that Parlia-
ment would have. seen the wisdom of trying a treat national
question in a locality, which was ready to solve-that ques-
tion for the rest of the country. If - they had made up
,their minds to abandon the system of local rates as a basis
for national education, they could not de better than adopt
the noble lord's proposal of grants out of Conielidated
Fund. He did not think the Pri Ty Conned system of grants
in aid so fitted for a free country as the plan of local rates,
but as the plan of local rates was supposed to involve reli-
gious difficulties, they could not do better than fall back
upon the system which was already established.' He hoped
the noble lord would abandon the last part of his scheme; if
he did, he thought the thanks of the country would be due
to him for having suggested a practical plan. Ile thought
the standard of education too high ; to secure the attend-
ance of children the parents must understand that what
their children were bsiog taught would be of practical
value to them in their after life. Only let that be done,
and the difficulty of non-attendance would be surmounted.
The'first portion of the noble lord'a suggeetious was most
desirable—the proposal to codify the minutes of the Privy
Council of Education was a great improvement on what
had heed done the year before. He supposed the proposal
of adding 80 subordinate school inspectors to-the 39 inspec-
tors already existing was necessary for efficiently carrying
out the sytem, but that branch of the question would re-.
quire much Consideration, for it was of the highest impor-
tance that the system of inspectorship should be- adequate.
If the noble lord contended manfully with the diffi-
culty of. charitable funds, he would cause -Money to
be employed usefully which was then employed in-doing
mischief. To compel employers to give certificates' and
send children employed by than to school, was a most vas
„triable euggestion, but he doubted whether it was applicable
to agricultural districts. As be had before observed, he
thought that part of the bill which related to the matter
of rates would involve the noble lord in religious difficul-
ties. He hoped the noble lord would disembarass his mea-
sure of the portion respecting libraries and evening classes.
If the taste for reading were created libraries would follow
of themselves.

Mr. J. E. DENISON thanked the noble lord for the
complete measure he had submitted. The advantage of
his resolutions was, that they enabled all to start with COM.
pieta satisfaeticTn. In contemplating the question, it bad
occurred to him that the•only practical course for the house
to take was to commence, as the noble lord had suggested,
by examining the minutes of the Privy Council ; be had
proposed that those minutes should be revised and oonsoli-
dated. The noble lord stated that he would no't enter into
the examination of those minutes, because there would be
other opportunitiesnf doing so. He (Mr. Denison) would
point out where he thought those minutes might be
amended. The intention of mblic grants of asssistance by
public money was, that thoWuost destitute would receive
the assistance of the State • but, according to the rules of
the Committee of Privy Council,: those who wore not able
to help themselves could not receive any assistance from

;he Sfate. If, for instance, a poor parish or diatrict riai;ed.

a small sum, but not equal to the whole sum required,
the Committee of Privy Council said no, this money was
not raised entirely in the locality, therefore the committee
can only raise your local sum by an equal amount. He
thought that if a parish came forward with the requisite
amount it was notnecessarytea scrutinise the source whence
that fund was obtained. Agaireeno aid could be granted
fora school without a certificated schoolmaster. The fact of a
man's holding a certificate was no test of his being the best
man to instruct children is a.parish school. , All would
admit the importance of evening schools in enabling young
people 'to retain and add to what they had acquired bdfore,
and one of the minutes of the Privy Council offered the sum
of 101. to assist schoolmasters to establish evening schools,
hut again the same restrictions, no assistance to evening
schools if the master of the day school class did not hold a
certificate. He thought that a relaxation of those rules
would bean advantage. The system of half-time, hitherto
'acted on only in the manufacturing districts, he knew could
be carried out in agricultural parishes, for a case had come
under his own observstiei in which, although the children
had only half time at school, they had made as much pro-
gress as those who had been continuously. He thought to
whatever extent the house might sanction the resolutions,
they would Promote general if not national education.
Mr. G. BUTT felt the evils of the present system of
charities to be a subject to which every one would admit
that a remedy should be applied. When the present act
iastituting the board of charity commissioners was passed,
it was intended that they should have final and jadicial
power to dispose of all matters. connected with small cha-
rities. He would suggest that there was no difficulty in deal•
ing with the question. Were not the present commissioners'
competent to disposer of 'such matters without an appeal
which would have the effect of swamping the charity. He
hoped that when the noble lord came to legislate on the
matter he would, by two or three short cleuece, give this ju-
risdiction to the charity commissioners, and thus save these
charities from tieing swallowed up iu litigation. (Hear.)
Mr. ROEBUCK said that the noble bold had propounded
a scheme of national education. He had dose so himself 23
years, though without success. He hoped the noble lord
would have greater success, though ho had great doubts,
for he found that he was tuet hythe Berea difficulties which
had impeded every other eaucatioaal reformer. The noble
lord had stated that it was impossible to separate religions
from national education ; and that the only way to teach
morals was to teach them as based on Christianity. Now
he differed with the noble lord on this point; for the fact
was, that there had been morals ion. before there was any
Christianity; aid there were morall men who 'were not
Christians. It was dear,' therefore, that it was possible to
teach murals without teachitie any particular form of
Christianity. The object of education was to fashion the
intellectual and moral man se as to make an individual a
good father, son, husband, or citizen. If it did not do
that, but merely instructed the intellectual man, no good
was done. The loan lamely became a more fitting instru-
ment for evil. What ho wanted to give to the young was,
therefore, first, an intellectual, then a moral, and then a
religious education. Now, as to the iutellootnal educa-
tion, there was little dispute. Every one agreed that its
object ought to be to strengthen the intellectual part of
man, and to teach him how to conquer nature and make
the best use of his powers. Now, with.respect- to moral.
It was a reniaricuble thing that the moral code of every
sect was pretty nearly the same. In fact, they depended
on the civilisation of the country. The moral -cede of the
Christian otthe present day was as different from that of
the Christian of the eleventh century, as the moral code of
Etiglead teas from that of Hindooetan. A Jew, a Uni-
terian, a Presbyterian, a Church of England, and a Cattier.
lie child, would all receive the same moral training, and if
so, it was clear that the moral code of the country was
settled, and it was that which mafia the moral *an.
What then did religion do ? It had no doubt (lone much
to fashion the moral code, but it was now only employed
as a sanction, and in that all these various ieligiouss bodies
agreed. Therfore . you could make a luau religions in
spirit without making him one of any peculiar sect.,
and you could introit nee relit ions Cteaching to the ex-
tent he had mentioned without introducing that on
which there would be any difference of opinion. But
when the noble lord proposed to allow the reading of
the Bible in his schools, he would shut out many children,
and would make his system far from national. If for
example a child asked fur an explanation of a verse in
the Gospel of St. John, it would not be given without in-
volving doctrinal palate; and then the system clearly
ceased to be national. net being his view of the matter,
he was for giving a good secular education, and for teaching
children the great moral doctrines with their physical,
Moral, and religions sanctions. He believed that it was
accessary to have a mere general system of education thin
we had at present; aud as he was convinced that it wonid
be impossible to iudnee the country to sanction any'whick
was characterise t by sectarianism, he was himself in &venr
of the secular 'system.

Sir J. PAKINGTON agreed tied. this was not the occa-
sion to discuss the propoitions of the noble lord, but could
not let the dicassion clove without thanking him for the
able, temperate, and impressive manner in which he had.
addrened the house on this important subject. lie thought
the noble lord had exercised a Wise discretion in the form
in which ho had submitted his plan to the house, fey he had
himself felt the difficulty which ever attended a private
membm's attempt to pass a measure en such a subject
through the house. He had never expected to pass that
measure through tue house last session, but ho was well

rewarded for the troeble he had taken if he had been in any
de roe instrumental in bringing about the establishment
of a recognised department of education in the Govern-
ment. He hoped also that be had hoeu instrumental in
separating this question from the category of party ques-
tions, and in enabling men sitting in different parts of the
house toast together on this question. There was one pea
of the statement of the noble lord which was put iu a man
ner different from what he had ever heard before. He
stated that 500,000 of the children now at school were
scholars at schools receiring grants from the Privy Coun-
cil. He was very glad to hear that the proportion of
children at school subject to the inspection of the Privy
Council wa.s so large, and it certainly gave him a much
higher idea of the state of education in this country
then he had ever before entertained. In the two main
objects which the noble lord stated as his aim be cer-
chiefly concurred. Ho also agreed with the noble lord in
thinking that we should go as far as peasible with the pre-
sent system. He should not go into the resolutions of the
noble lord. If any ono had a right to complain it was the
noble earl, the Lord President and the future Vice-Presi-
dent of tee Council, since they sketched out a plan which
it would otherwise have been the duty of the department
of education to provide. He could assure the noble lord
that it would be his wish to give them the most careful
consideration, and to support them as far as lies in his
power. With respect to the observations of the hon. and
learned gentleman who had last addressed the house, he
must repeat what he said last year—that when they dis-
cussed the question of secular education they must not only
consider what was right in itself, but what was practicable
in the present state of feeling of the country. Now, he be-
lieved that the general feeling of the country was, that any
system of education which did not teach children educated
in the common schools their duty to God as well as man,
was one which could not with propriety and advantage be
established. And he believed that so strong wan this feel-
ing that no Government could ran counter to it. After
expressing his approbation of the resolutions of the noble
lord, which affirmed the principle of an educational rate,
the hon. beeenet also expressed his concurrence in those
portions of the noble lord's plan which referred to provie
sions for compelling children sent to work to attend school
for a certain portion of their time. He thought the prin-
ciple was perfectly sound. He again thanked the noble
lord for the introduction of these resolul;ons, and should
give them as much support as he could. ( Lear.)
Mr. M. GIBSON admitted that the noble lord had in-
troduced this subject to the house in a manner adequate to
its vast importance, but he wanted to knew what proof there
was that the pablic sentiment was opposed to neysters of
secular education? There had been 178 in*Gthavi is 28
counties in England, and in these resolutions were carries(
that no system of education shoed be supported by rates,
except a secular system. Pree!sely the same difficulty would
be felt elesiut the support of any system of sectarian reli-
gions education as *as now experienced with regard to
Church-rates. He was himeell favour of. the secular
-tyitem Oi ochwatiop, cad be WS FUrPrilad t 42 5" thei 459
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