The Sun.
London, England, 1860-07-04 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENING, JULY 4, 1860.

" Page 6, line 1, after 'respectively,' insert 'provided
always that such special rules shall be suspended, in the
manner provided in the fifteenth section of this act, for the
period of fourteen days, before the same are transmitted to
the Secretary of State.' "
The amendment was agreed to.

Mr. CLIVE moved- the following amendment :
" Page 7, line 8, leave out after accordingly' down to and
including established' in page 8, line 4, and insert in
case of the death, incapacity, or refusal or neglect to act of
any arbitrator under this Act, another arbitrator shall be
appointed in his place."
The clause with the amendment was agreed to.
On clause 20,

Mr. CROOK moved the following amendment :—" Line
39, leave out ' serious ;' and after ' injury,' insert ' which
shall be of such a nature as shall have prevented the per-
son or persons injured from returning to his or their work
at such mine or colliery before nine of the clock in the
morning of the next following working day."
The amendment was adopted, and the clause as amended
was agreed to.

Mr. SULLIVAN moved that the chairman report pro-
gress, as it had been understood from the Government yes-
terday that the Irish Tenure and Improvement Land bill
should come on first to-day.
Mr. ROEBUCK protested against this course being
adopted. This was a private day, and the Government had
no power to make such an arrangement.
Mr. CARDWELL stated that an endeavour had been
made to induce the gentlemen interested in the bill now un-
der consideration to postpone it, but without success, as
there were a large number of gentlemen in town waiting
to see it disposed of.
Mr. SULLIVAN withdrew his motion.
Mr. VIVIAN moved an amendment, the operation of
which was to make the operation of the bill perpetual, in-
stead of limiting it to five years.
After some discussion the motion was agreed to.
The remainding clauses of the bill were agreed to with
verbal amendments.
Mr. H. B. SHERIDAN moved the introduction of an
amendment in the preamble making the provisions of this
act applicable to limestone pits.
The amendment was negatived.
The bill was reported with amendments to the house.
INCREASE AND IMPROVEMENT OF LAND
(IRELAND) BILL.
_

The house went into committee for the further considera-
tion of this bill. The clauses from 38 to the conclusion of
the bill were agreed to with verbal amendments.
The CHAIRMAN reported the bill with amendments.
The remaining orders of the day were then postponed.
CONSENT TO BILLS. 1

The house then proceeded to the House of Lords to hear
the royal assent given to certain bills, and on its return
adjourned at four o'clock.
The house resumed at six o'clock.
THE CENSUS.

Sir C. DOUGLAS gave notice that on Friday next he
would ask the First Lord of the Treasury what course the
Government intended to pursue with respect to the question
of religious persuasion in the Census Bill. (Hear.)
PAROCHIAL ASSESSMENTS.

Mr. WICKHAM asked the Secretary of State for the
Home Department whether it was the intention of the Go-
vernment to carry on the bill for regulating parochial as-
sessments.
Sir G. C. LEWIS said it was doubtful whether the bill
could be proceeded with in the present session. Various
objections had been made to the bill, but they did not affect
its general principles, and if the measure was to be pro-
ceeded with this session the only practicable course to
adopt was to read it a second time, and then to refer it to a
select committee, in order that those objections might be in-
quired into.
EXAMINATION OF CADETS AT SANDHURST.
General BUCKLEY asked the Secretary for War whe-
ther at the recent examination of cadets at the Royal Mili-
tary College, Sandhurst, 40 having passed an examination
fitting them for commissions without purchase, the Com-
mander-in-Chief informed them only 20 could be provided
with commissions without purchase, in consequence of the
Secretary of State for War not putting more than that num-
ber at his disposal.
Mr. S. HERBERT said a certain number of commissions
were allotted to be competed for at Sandhurst. That of
course depended upon the number of vacancies there might
be for commissions without purchase, but upon this particu-
lar occasion it was announced that young men who had not
3,000 marks should not be entitled to receive commissions,
even though they might be among the number of
competitors who might otherwise be entitled. It so hap.
pened that twenty commissions were fixed upon, and the
Duke of Cambridge had announced at the examination of
these young men that there would be twenty commissions,
but inasmuch as some of these young men had not 3,000
marks, they were not allowed to compete for them. But he
was happy to say that since then eleven commissions had
fallen in, making altogether thirty-one, and that number
had been given away, being rather in excess of those usually
given.

COMMISSIONS IN 'VOLUNTEER CORPS.
Mr. CAYLEY asked the Secretary of State for War
whether it was allowable for officers of yeomanry regiments
to receive commissions in volunteer corps ?
Mr. S. HERBERT said that applications had been made
to him by lords-lieutenant to know whether or not they
ought to grant commissions in volunteer corps to officers of
militia or yeomanry, and the decision the War-office had
arrived at was that which he believed some lords-lieutenant
had acted upon. In certain cases the raising of a volunteer
corps depended uppn the local influence of some particular
person, and though a better officer might very well be found
to command it ►hen once formed, yet such an officer might
Dot have local influence enough to raise the corps. Under
those circumstances there was no objection to give yeomanry
or militia officers who raised volunteer rifle corps leave to
hold commissions in these corps, but upon the condition
that in the event of the yeomanry and militia being called
out for active eervice, they must choose in which service
they would remain.
GLANDERS AMONG HORSES AT ALDERSHOTT.
General PEEL asked the Secretary of State for War if it
was true that glanders prevailed to a considerable extent
amongst the horses in the camp at Aldershott ; and if so,
if he could state what steps had been taken to prevent the
spread of it.

Mr. S. HERBERT said he found upon inquiry that
glanders was suspected among, some horses at Aldershott,
and orders had consequently been given to separate them
from the rest. Subsequently a board of officers was assem-
bled to investigate the matter, and they reported that the
horses were not affected with glanders—(a laugh)—but the
few which were suspected were removed.
In reply to Mr. BOUVIIRIE,
Mr. S. HERB ERT further stated that it was not true
that some of the horses of the Horse Guards had been
placed in a stable from which horses affected with glanders
had been removed, without any precautions being previously
taken. He had heard of a case in which suspicions were
entertained, but the stable, before being used again, was
purified, and the roof taken off.

fair thing that these old officers, having taken their promo-
tion at the time they did, should find themselves no better
off when they arrived at the rank of general officers.
Mr. S. HERBERT would entirely assent to what the
hon, and gallant gentleman had laid down, assuming this
to be a question of bargain. If a bargain had been made,
it ought not to be set aside; and if justice required that
these officers should have this increase of pay, they ought
to have it. The amount involved was not such as to cause
any difficulty, for it was only the difference between paying
9s. 6d. a day and 255. a day to seven old officers. There
was no consideration, therefore, which could bias his mind
upon this case, except his sense of duty, and the fact that
upon examining the claim, he did not think it was justified
by the facts. The hon. and gallant officer had said that
these officers went on half-pay for the benefit of the ser-
vice ; but he (Mr. S. Herbert) did not see what that had to
do with the matter. Of course it was optional for them to
accept that arrangement, and when they accepted it they
did so, not for the sake of service, but for their own sake.
They went on half-pay, receiving at the same time a step
of rank ; they had been brevet majors, and they became sub-
stantive majors. An example of this had occurred of late
years, when some officers, 'a ho had got brevet rank for ser-
vices in the Crimea, accepted the substantive rank of majer
instead, and thought it was a good bargain for them to go on
half-pay with that step,expecting of course to exchange back
on full pay,and so realise the benefit of it. But they did so at a
time wb en the lists were full, and the small room forpromotion
that existed made it difficult for them to get back. The
old officers referred to in this motion had made a more ad-
vantageous arrangement, for whilst they went on half-pay
_at their own request, they were not to sufer the disadvan-
tages attached to half-pay with regard to the provision for
widows. It might be said they were not married men at
that time, but they were not then too old to have wives,
who would be entitled to pensions. The rule had been laid
down that no man was to be deemed fit to rise to be a
general officer, with certain advantages, unless he had
served six years as a rank and file officer; and a man
could net become a colonel unless he had served a certain
r cried as a lieutenant-colonel. It was to ensure the effi-
ciency of the higher rank of officers that these rules were
made. But it was now proposed to make an exception in
the case of these half pay officers, who had never served
since 1826. For these reasons, acting on the best judgment
he could form, he had declined to accede to their request;
and now, with regard to the hon. and gallant gentleman's
motion, he would frankly say that he did not think the
House of Commons was a proper tribunal to decide this
question.

General PEEL said that for his own part his judgment
was quite as free from bias in this matter as that of the
right hon. gentleman. Ho had never known these officers
or heard of any of them until their case was brought before
him when he held office. But ho had no doubt whatever
that they were entitled to be placed in the same position as
that in which they h.d reasonably imagined they would be
placed. He thought it would be far better to let the officers
have the committee they asked for. It was a bad bargain
for the country, but they ought to keep it.
Colonel SYKES said it appeared to him that Government
had not kept faith with these officers. A good case required
only a plain and complete statement, and the very elabo-
rateness of the argument of the right hon. gentleman (Mr.
S. Herbert) showed that his case was a bad one. If the
gallant colonel pressed his motion he should go into the
lobby with him.
Colonel DUNNE was always unwilling to submit a mili-
tary question to a select committee of that house ; but as
the present and the late Secretary for War had given diffe-
rent opinions, what were they to do ?
The house then divided, when there appeared—
For the motion
Against it
Majority
The announcement of the numbers was received with
cheers by the Opposition.
CADETSHIPS IN THE ROYAL NAVY.

Captain ESMONDE moved for a select committee to in-
quire into the present system of nominations for cadetships
in the Royal navy. He said he believed there was a general
impression in the country that her Majesty's navy was in a
great degree, and especially as regarded the middle classes,
a sort of close borough. He believed that there was not
sufficient publicity attached to the nominations. A hon.
friend of his moved at the commencement of the session for
a return of all nominations to cadetships to the Royal navy
from 1824 to 1869, showing by whom they were made, and
from that return it appeared that the whole number of no-
minations was 1,019, of which 12 were by the colonies, 14
by the Royal Naval School, 248 by flag officers, and there
remained 745 to be accounted for, they being made by the
board. He by no means asserted that there was any abuse.
If there were no abuse there was no reason why the com-
mittee should not be granted, and if there were an abuse
the committee would discover it. He had a precedent for
the course he was taking. At the commencement of this
session the member for King's County moved for a com-
mittee to inquire into the present mode of nominating and
examining candidates for appointment to the civil service.
The Secretary for the Treasury opposed it, but said he
wished it to be distinctly understood tkat Government
opposed it because the inquiry was premature. That did
not apply to the system of appointing cadetships. The
hon. member for Sheffield said the object was to find
out what the system was, and the noble lord at the head
of the Government thereupon said he had no objection to
the appointment of the coramitteo. His object was precisely
the same, and ho trusted, therefore, that the committee
would not be refused.
Lord C. PAGET said he had heard no complaint of the
present system of nominations. Many gentlemen had asked
him, and he had told them how nominations were made.
He believed the Admiralty had always been ready to con-
sider the claims of officers and others who were solicitous
to get appointments for candidates. He was quite aware
that the opening of the nominations of cadetships had a
great many things to recommend it, and he was bound to
admit that he himself had brought the matter before the
house. He believed it would be advisable if by some means
or other a system of limited competition for nominations
should be introduced into the navy. He had thought a
great deal over the matter, as had the Board of Admiralty,
and it was attended with considerable difficulty. If they
were to have competition, it was necessary, of course, that
they should have a very high class of education. They
knew very well that an examination of a parcel of boys 12
years of ago in arithmetic was no test of what a boy would
come to in after life. The Duke of Somerset had intro-
duced competition in the appointment of cadets to the
marines, and if it should succeed there they might consider
whether that system could not be applied to naval cadets.
With regard to the engineering department also the Board
of Admiralty had issued a regulation that there should be
a competitive examination of the factory boys. There were
many inconveniences attending a competitive examination
of candidates. How should they, for instance, with such a
system, deal with the claims of the colonies for cadetships ?
Were they to have half-a-dozen boys sent from Australia or
Canada for examination, one of whom might be successful,
and the remainder have to be sent back disappointed ? Now
with regard to the claims of old officers, the only boon
held out to them was the hope of putting their sons into
the navy ; and would it not be a hard case that they should
be excluded from direct nomination ? That would be a
great act of injustice towards those officers, and a great act
of impolicy. The proportion of naval cadets who were
nominated by old officers was three-fourths. He did not
think that the gallant °lacer had made out any case for in-
quiry. So far as regarded the patronage, if he were to con-
sult his own feelings, he should be glad to get rid of it. He
(the noble lord) was satisfied that no committee that the
house could appoint could deal with the subject so well as
the department to which it naturally belonged, and he hoped
therefore that the motion would be rejected.
Mr. LINDSAY found from a return which had been
placed in his hand that out of 1,019 nominations between
the year 1854-9, only 12 had been bestowed on young men
from the colonies. The argument of the noble lord on that
score did not therefore amount to much. He (Mr. Lindsay)
had never asked for but one appointment, and that was for
a son of General Niel. It.was refused him, but at the re-
quest of Mrs. Niel he repeated his application. It met with
the same result, and he would never ask for another nomi-
nation. He perceived that of the 1,019 nominations 745
had been distributed by the board, and he should like to
know on what principle they acted ?
Lord C. PAGET—Three-fourths of them were service
claims for merit.

Mr. LINDSAY nevertheless thought that the explana-
tion which the noble lord had given was unsatisfactory,
and if no better one was offered he should vote for the
inquiry.

Mr. TAYLOR also supported the motion.
Mr. WHITBREAD said that the object of the proposed
inquiry was merely to ascertain what the existing system
was, and not because any case had been made out against
it. It was not pretended that the appointments were jobbed
away, or that the boys who received them were not the sort
of boys who ought to have them. Before the hon. and
gallant gentleman asked the house to agree to his motion
he ought surely to have sketched out some better plan than
the one that already existed.

Mr. LOCKE said it was very well to have a list of can-
didates, but what the house wanted to know was on what
principle persons were taken off it to receive the appoint-
ments. The Government could have no objection to
the motion if their system was straightforward and above-
board.

Mr. BEAMISH expressed a similar opinion.
Sir F. BARING said it was quite without precedent to
ask for an inquiry without first making out some case to
justify an examination into the practice of the Executive
Government; but he (the right hon. baronet) had not yet
heard a single word to explain what the object of the com-
mittee really was. If the house wanted any information as
to the number of appointments given to the sons of naval
or military, or India officers, they could easily obtain it by
moving for returns; and he (the right hon. baronet) had no
hesitation in saying that those officers might obtain appoint-
ments for their sons without any interest whatever beyond
their services. Of course cases might occur of the failure of
an application; but it was obvious that that must neces-
sarily happen if it was made at a time when the list was
already crowded with good claims. He for one could cer-
tainly could not agree that the appointments should be ro-
omed for the Nom of 91Acorti 9417; Or 1" thought it w94/4

be a great evil to shut the door against the admission of
civilians.

The house then divided
Ayes
Noes
LIEN FOR FREIGHT.

Mr. M. GIBSON obtained leave to bring in a bill to faci-
litate the unshipment of goods, and secure the shipowners'
lien for freight.

MANCHESTER CATHEDRAL CHURCH BILL.
Mr. MASSEY obtained leave to bring in a bill to enable
the Ecclesiastical Commissioners for England to apply cer
tain funds towards the repairs of the cathedral church of
Manchester.

The first order of the day was then called, and the house
resolved itself into a committee on the Attorneys and Soli-
citors' Bill, when an hon. member moved that numbers be
taken, and Mr. Massey, the chairman of the committees,
having counted the committee found the number present to
be 33. The- chairman then vacated the chair, and the
Speaker having re-entered the house again took the num-
bers, and finding them to be 34 only, the house immedi-
ately adjourned at a quarter past eight.