The Sun.
London, England, 1856-07-15 00:00:00

at tack Austria. Now, I think it undesirable that a man of
the great character and influence of the noble lord the mem-
ber for the city of London should in this house volunteer en-
gagements to other countries which the litera scripta of the
treaty does not authorise ; but I certainly agree with the noble
lord that any attack upon Sardinia by any Power in consequence
of the internal policy which she pursues would constitute one
of those grave conjunctures which would demand the most
serious consideration of the British Government, and could
certainly not be encountered by a despatch or an admoni-
tion. Let me, however, remind the noble lord, who says
that there is no danger of Sardinia attacking Austria, of what
occurred in 1848. It was Sardinia that attacked Austria. It
was when Austria was supposed to be in distress and in de-
spair, even while negotiations of a not unfriendly character
were going on between the two Courts, that the King of Sar-
dinia made, as it were, a nocturnal attack upo i his Austrian
neighbour, and commenced the war which ended in his signal
discomfiture. I hope that the present King will profit by
that experience, and will feel confident that if he, within his
own dominions, pursues the policy which he believes to be
for the advantage of the great body of his people he will re-
tain the respect of Europe, and will be safe from any unjust
attack. I should deeply lament that any occupation of Sar-
dinia by Austria should take place. That would indeed be a
conjuncture which would require the deep consideration of
this house. To judge from the past. I cannot bring myself to
bOlieve that any danger of that kied exists ; I cannot but be-
lieve that the King of Sardinia is safe so long as he remains
within the limits of his own dominions, and pursues that
policy in the management of his kingdom which he has a right
to follow. If anything can give to him power to develops his
whole political system it is the maintenance of peace in Italy.
I am persuaded that, if the policy recommended by the noble
lord the member fur London is followed, you will have the
position of Sardinia endangered—not by Austria, but by the'
revolutionary element, exercising its sympathetic influence
upon the secret societies of Piedmont; and that throne will
fall, not by the hand of Austria, not by the interference of
foreign occupation, but by the efforts of men and bodies of
men, who have in view far other objects than the constitu-
tional improvements which wisely engage the attention of
the King of Sardinia, and the subversive career of which will
be accelerated by the motion wade by the noble lord to-night.
The noble lord the First Minister tells us that he cannot con-
sent to the production of the papers now asked for. I
can hardly suppose that tie noble lord the member
for London expected them to be granted; but he has
had an opportunity of placing bef.re the house and the
country the policy which he advocates. I entirely dissent
'trona the views of that noble lord. (Hear, liar ) I say, if
you will interfere with Italy, you must interfere with fleets
and armies, and be prepard to meet the consequences.
(Hear, hear.) If you interfere in Italy, you must make up
your minds for a war of prolonged duration a war that
will tax your resources to the uttermost, and which, once it
is commenced, you must continue until you have fully accom-
plished the objects for which you embarked in it, and have
in fact reconstituted the map of Europe. (Hear, hear.) That
is the only mode in which you can interfere in Italy. If you
are not prepared to do that, for the sake of the Italians, for
the sake even of liberty and civilisation, you will avoid
stirring up the passions of the population of that peninsula.
(" Hear," and a faint laugh.) I am confident this view is
right, although you may smile at the association of the words
" liberty and civilisation" with Austrian rule. (Hear, hear.)
We are told that we can expect nothing from Austria. Let
me impress on the house this point—that Austrian statesmen
are men of the very highest enlightenment. Among these
are the present Prime Minister of Austria and the Minister of
that country at the Court of Rome. Prince Metternich is a
statesman distinguished above all others for his freedom from
prejudice and passion, and a man who has an interest in
self-government ; he must feel that, if Italy were tranquil
and undisturbed, Austria, being a powerful nation, could
afford to be clement, to trust, and confide. It is the King
of Naples—the little Sovereigns, teased with constant con-
spiracies, ;who, rather from a feeling of panic than any
natural cruelty or arbitrary disposition, are driven to those
excesses which we all equally deplore and desire to see ter-
minated. No man can wish to fill dungeons with his own
subjects. I remember perfectly well that when Lord Minto
went to Italy in 1817, and at the request of several of the
northern Courts tendered his advice on the part of the Bri-
tish Government, the same King of Naples, who is now de-
picted to us as quite a Caligula, was so anxious to establish
some form of constitutional government in his dominions that
be applied to our Government for their good offices towards
that end; and Lord Minto, at the King's express desire, re-
paired to Naples, and for a considerable period I believe en-
tertained most sanguine expectations of success. It was the
sudden outbreak of the French revOlution which put a stop
to the arrangements then in progress in Naples. (Hear,
hear.) For these reasons, although there can be no division
to-night .on this question, I hope the house will refuse to
sanction' the course recommeaded by the noble.ord —I hope
it will arrive at this conclusion :—if we agree to interfere in
Italy, let it be a real interference ; or, on the other hand, if
we aro not prepared to act, if we are not prepared to give
effect to our policy by force, then the best thing for a:s will be
to remain silent ; not to rouse the passions of the popnlation ;
not to upset thrones—a policy which can only end in aggra-
vating the thraldom of Italy, and may leacl•to consequences
still more fraught with disaster to Europe. - (Cheers.)
Mr. BOWYER had' been told by persons on whom he
could rely, that the evacuation of the Roman States by
foreign troops would very soon take place, and be trusted
that no more attacks would then be heard upon the Roman
Government. Nothing would tend more to prevent foreign
armies from leaving the Roman States than speeches such as
that which had been delivered by the noble lord the member
for the city of Loudon, who was anxious to introduce into
Italy notions which were inapplicable to,the conditioa of that
country. He concurred with what had been said by the
right hon, member nor Buckinghamshire, that it was impos-
sible to carry into effect the views of the noble lord without
sending out a force sufficient to revolutionise Italy; and be-
lieved that if the noble lord occupied the same position as
the noble lord at the head of the Government, he would take
a different view of the subject. Count Cavour had placed be-
fore the conference a monstrous document, recommending a
most ridiculous plan for the government of the Roman States;
and had said, that unless certain •things were done, there
would be danger of revolution in Italy. Now, the danger
arose, in a great measure, from the violence of 'the pres,
which made attacks of the most ferocious character against
constituted authorities and the Church, and from the viola-
tion of laws of property. It was gratifying to find both the
leader of the House and the leader of the Opposition taking
a reasonable view of the matter. He should be glad to see a
constitutional Government established ; but such Speeches as
that of the noble lord the member for the city of Loudon
were not calculated to promote the progress of civilisation
He trusted things would be allowed' to take their natural
course, and that the Roman States would be left to manage
their even affairs without any foreign interference. (Hear )
Mr. M. MILNES said the noble lord at the head it the
Government had given no right to the right hon. 'gentleman
opposite to assume that ho had come to the same 'ponclusion
as himself on this important question. He said (Mr. Milnes)
did not say that the Austrian Government was at present ac-
tuated by any desire of aggression, but her previous conduct
rendered it necessary to watch her conduct most (carefully ;
for under pretence of assisting the Sovereigns of the States
applying to her, she might eventually occupy 00 whol : of
Italy. (Bear.) .11e believed the Sardinian Government to
be at present in no peril, but no one could tell whit its posi-
tion would be if it had not the good will and goodi wishes of
this country. Sardinia would be looked upon wth an evil
eye by the Absolutist Governments of the Conti ent, and
therefore it was the duty of this country to thro over Sar-
dinia the shield of its protection. He did not thin the ques-
N i
tion of the independence of Italy isas at all mice up with
the question of religion. If that independence ere esta-
blished there would be no fear of secret societies, rof any
'other danger which some people apprehended t society.
The Sovereigns of Italy nearly all acted under forei n instiga-
tion, and that he believed was the principal cause o the pre-
sent state of Italy. The Emperor Napoleon I. hid always
said that one of the greatest objects of our policy wps the in-
dependence of Italy. That declaration would certainly not be
forgotteu by the present ruler of France, and ought lways to
be remembered by us. I

Mr. WHITESIDE said this was a subject of j deep in-
terest, and the speech of the noble lord the members for Lon-
don upon it was logical and clear; but if his object were to
draw some definite statement of policy from the nioble lord
at the head of the Government he certainly had I not suc-
ceeded, for no one who had heard that noble lord could have
understood what his argument or what his policy vias. The
noble lord had displayed the faculty of talking for aeconsider-
able time peacefully, and saying nothine. The noble lord had
declared no policy. Lord Clarendon's proposition was to
deal with a hard hand with Popery, and to secularisb the Pa-
pacy, which meant the overthrow of the government of the
Church. And had the noble lord the member for • Tiverton
endorsed that policy ? What did the paper which was
signed by the plenipotentiaries at Paris say ? Why, that the
armed occupation of Rome was to cease when the authority
of the Pope was consolidated. Why, that was, in reality,
postponing it to the Greek calends, and that was the argu-
ment of the noble lord the member for London, and it had
not in any way been met. When did the noble lord (the
member for Tiverton) say that armed intervention was to
cease 7 He had said nothing about it. It hud been said that
within the last fortnight Lord Normanby, the amb ssador in
Italy, had advocated the armed intervention of A tria and
Franco, so that we had one ambassador in Italy ho ding one
argument, and another ambassador in France holdin another.
The noble lord the member for London was justified in asking
the noble lord at the head of the Government wh t he in-
tended to do. That noble lord would have said, Of he in-
tended to follow up words by actions, that if Naplas did not
behave itself we would blow it to pieces. Instead df that the
noble lord had said nothing, a course which he (Mt. White-
side) could not but characterise as childish. Was it the rule
of the noble lord's policy to have barren protocols and nothing
else ? Ho believed that the protocol on Italy would lead to
war, and the permanent occupation by armed troops of Italy.
There seemed to be something like a sarcasm in the. observa-
tions of the noble lord the member for London, when he re-
ferred to the Pope. Ho said that if the troops veer° with-
drawn from Rome tho Pope would settle with hi people.
Suppose the people settled him. (Laughter.) ere the
troops withdrawn he apprehended' that the cardin is would
as speedily quit the place as they did before, and Rome would
be deprived of some of its most respectable inhabitants.
(Laughter. He (Mr. Whiteside) believed that the pourse of
the Government here would exasperate the people) of Italy
into revolution, and when in revolution the Government
would leave them to their fate.
Mr. J. G. PHILLIMORE said of all governmente the go-
vernment of priests was the worst, and the government of the.
Pope was the most mischievous in the world. Thei appear-
ance of an English fleet in the Bay of Na files world bring
the King of Naples to his senses in a day. The policy of
Austria had always been to keep her subjects in sensual
enjoyments, in order to keep the people from that) freedom
to which they were entitled, He was astounded to find
that the right honourable gentleman opposite (Nlr. Disraeli)
should defend the policy of Austria and a Metternich. The
policy of Metternich was that of despotism and nothing'else.
As to the Emperor of the French defending 'the Papacy, he
(Mr. Phillimore) believed that much as France had sUbmitted
to, there was one thing that she would never toletate, and
that was that her present ruler should shed the' blood of
France in putting down the liberties of Italy. •
Sir J. WALSH said the French had created, a word which
ought to be introduced into our language. It 'was iipecialt6.
The meaning of the word was an aptness for cert+ things.
Now, he thought if there was one thing which the noble lord
the member for London was deficient of specialte ?n, it was
diplomacy. Now, however, the noble lord seemed again in-
clined to try his bandat it, and to come forth againin an old
eharacter. Tue noble lord seemed to think that we ought to
interfere in the Papal State s. As the withdrawal of the troops
would immediately produce revolution, he (Sir J. Walsh)
would be glad to know if the noble lord expected 'that the
Emperor Napoleon would allow himself to be madem tool of
by this country in a course of policy entirely antagonistic to
all his principles. He (Sir J. Walsh) could not look upon the
political parties in Italy as being so innocuous as some gentle-
men imagined. Why, some of them advocated the ;policy of
the stiletto, and many'of the politicians of Italy weir simply
Red Republicans, which was another name for the old Jaco
binism. Could proper safety be placed in such hands ?
He believed ,not ; for there was a revolutionary element
a existence in Italy, which, if not narrowly w ached, would
defeat the objects of the best friends of Italy. lie; thought
that the noble lord at the head of the Government had
been wise in speaking a good • deal and saying nothing,
and he supposed the noble lord the member for London had
now nothing to do but to withdraw his motion, which he

presumed he had never s3riously intended to press en the
attention of the house.

Lord J. RUSSELL said that his observations had been ow
tirely addressed to the subject of the occupation of one coma'
try by the troops of another. He had never prop sod toil
interference between any sovereign and his pe;,ple. He 101
said that he c ild not admire that Government whose policy
was such that it required a foreign arrred force to support it.
rho right honourable gentleman the member for Bucking'
hamshire bad not at all addressed himself to the subject of
foreign intervention. He supposed that the right bon.
gentleman had prepared his observations before he had
heard those of his (Lord J. Russell's) own. With regard to
the speech of his noble friend the Prime Minister, he must sal
that it had given great satisfaction to the honourable mew'
ber for Dundalk (lr. Bowyer), and it had curiously enouP,
given complete satisfaction to himself (Lord J. Russell). It
was satisfactory, because it was an indication that the Go'
vernment did not int3nd to abandon attempts to carry out tb!
objects he had proposed. It hat been urged that there to
been secret societies in Italy, and therefore that fiSreign °cow
pation was necessary. On the other hand it wag
said, that becauso there was foreign occupation
there were secret societies, and thus they might go on argil'
ing for ever in a ci, ele. (Hear, hear.) He trusted that Pore
Pius IX. would in duo time return to that system of govern'
ment which he adopted in the early years of his sovereigotir
and which he believed had been productive of very great
benefits. The noble lord having adverted to some of the
objections which had been raised in reference to the detail
of his opening speech, expresSed a hope that benefit weal
aiise.from the discussion that had taken place.
The SPEAKER then put the question that the motioo
be withdrawn.
Lord J. RUSSELL—Not withdrawn ! Let it bo nega iYe
b' The motion wrs then negatived without a division.

PARTNERSHIP AMENDMENT (No. 2) BILL.
This bill was read a third time.
On the motion that it do pass,.
Mr. J. G. PHILLI MORE moved the following addition t°
clause 3 :—" Provided also, that no such loan shall bef
deemed to be protected by this act unless the lender thereo
shall, within fourteen days after the same shall have been
advanced, cause to be inserted in his own name in thn
Gazette of Loudon, Edinburgh, or Dublin, according as tbi
principal place of business of the borrower may be in Engis
Scotland, or Ireland, a statement of such advance, exhibit/
the amount thereof, the person to whom and the term foe
which the sum is made, the portion of the profits which the
louder stipulates to receive on account thereof, and the pat A,
of the business by which such profits are intended to be 9"
quired."
Mr. WILICINSON trusted the hon. and learned gentlenZ
would not press the amendment. It was no doubt very.
sirable to prevent fraud, but if such provisions were iutro.
duced they would so clog the bill as to make it entirely is'lvA‘
native.
that
Mr. MUNTZ supported the proviso, on the ground -
"
the bill as at present framed would lead to collusions of e
0
kind.
Mr. PELLATT thought that if the proviso were agreed 1,1
persons in business would never be able to obtain any Ws
at all.
Mr. SPOONER was afraid that the bill as it stood W 0 „0
enable persons to obtain fictitious credit, and therefore °
thought the proviso useful.

Mr. ROEBUCK objected to the clause. T, vie).
Mr. GLYN thought the right hon. gentleman (Mr. —e to
would do well to withdraw a bill whieh was evidently °pent,.
so many objections. In auoth€r session it might be advan
geously considered. •
Mr. W. BIGGS opposed the proviso, which he thou'
hi
would give no security to the public. 051
Mr. JOHN M`GRECOR would give this bal. his utrate.
support if he thought it would pass this session'; but he.ealt
lieved that it would be betterlf the Government would
draw it for the present session Off'
Mr. LOWE wished the hon, gentleman behind him .04
Glyn), who had so great a fondness for registration, so
„a
register every bill he transacted. If the principle wasg-)
in one case it would be so in another. (Hear, 11`0
The question was whether this lending on profits was in 5o
a partnership. He contended that it was not, add the l'o °f
ought not therefore to fetter such roans with the Weida, to
a partnership. If it was not a partnership, why hauotl
house five times approved the principle .th tt it wag,nt-iiiO
There was no occasion whatever for making loans e',beit
character public; -it was like all other loans, secretio,"„
' character, and they ought not to be treated -on diae-30
grounds. If the
.clause was passed ,by the conamitteler
would be te.ter to reject the whole bill at once ; and, the
taining these opinions, he certainly could not consent to
to
introduction of the clause. If the' clause were PaSse4',r)
bill would be nothing but one vast pitfall' and spare, Wle
Mr. CARD WELL said that when the hon. 'member oris.o
of the ".pitfall " which the clause contained the.ansWeloe
that it was taken almost word for word from the AO °' .04
sachusetts. The house 'had already adopted a clause tre3 to
loans as parnaerships, and all that was now required o'ls tbo
insert a clause to give effect to the principle adopted 13/cter
house. The, question as to whether loans of this chap of
involved partnership was not a new one, and the' to
Italy, France, and America had always treated these 0050
in the same meaner, and the greatest" commentators. 0' er
countries. had invariably insisted on the necessity of an, tot
rate system of registration of such loans. He contencle„u, psi
the proposed amendment would hot be a clog on the bilifo,
would, on the contrary, tend to make the bill more eV° •
and afford greater security to the public. (Hear )' a 104
Mr: LINDSAY 'was at a loss to nnderstand why: th 041
should allow a man to receive 50. per cent. for his
without any interference, bat should step in. and VI oto
such person should not advance limey on a flactuao; 00
of interest, for that was really the object of this clause., use
clause, if agreed to, would be perfectly unworkable and
less, and would defeat the principle and oljects of the t 10•
He hoped if the clause were carried that the right bon. g'
man.the President of.the Board of Trade would witbdr3o.
bill. •
othe
Mr. T. BARING contended that the clause Would ow re
inoperative if it wore agreed to, and as a proof of
ferred to the action ( f the law in Massachusetts and I°, 10
York. He felt strongly ,that publicity was indispenSA'Alo
the
the working of the principle embodied in the bill, auLpli
more he looked to the provisions of the bill, the more u;
he felt that it was the duty of the house to watch the °'so4l'
tious and effect of the Limited Liability Act already P3sajis:
Every other country had surrounded the laws of Waite 05'
bility with numerous precautions and safeguards. Tb.°,
object of the bill was not to help the poor man, but 1% Do
redly to enable the rich man to grasp as much proatAool3
could, with the risk of losing as little as Possible. lie !b the
most certainly, on the motion that the bill do pass, tard ell
sense of the house upon it, for it was perfectly derqiu:ioot'
benefit alike to rich and poor, with the exception of pr"
lug a spirit of gambling and speculation 1040
Lord PALMERSTON said he was perfectly at 34.„eee1l
to understand what was the astounding difference he'o
money lent at a fixed rate of interest, and money lea' -tioo
share of profits: and why in the one case, registilvoot
and publicity were thought necessary in order' to Pre%
••/
Ii
fraud, and not considered requisite in the other ? (.J-e31;to01
,ppeared to him that the principle which lay at the ,_
00511
of the opposition to nis bill, was the one which he the sa9
had died out, and which was that of limiting tr.nsactleii.eyd,
much as possible, which had interfered in the assize of ISliiug
and which was evident in the laws made against forests ar
and•regrating. He trusted that the house would come to!
eisicn fairly and openly on the whole principle of the hil',.ooo
Mr W. BROWN thought there never was a more dal3ge'ad
measure introduced into Parliament than the preSent one, ad
Wives entirely uncalled fOr by the wants of the countrl,o, of
would, if passed, tend to shake and destroy the confidel;td.
"able tublic in the great monetary transactions of the cot!, 010
(Hear.) Our credit, as merchants, stood high Over al'oe
world ; but, under.the operation of this bill, it would e°°„ 10
impaired and destroyed. The bill was really in effect eT:
enable persbus to commit frauds under act of Parliainen.l,o
Mr. HENLEY contended, that as the clause 104. ah:e
been inserted into the bill, making loans advanced to
share of profits part -hf the -assets, it would be necessarJ to
introduce sem) prevision for affording information muse,
the character of the assets. Ho should support the etathe
en the ground that it merely carried out the principles 0'
other clauses already agreed to. (Hear.)
• Mr. MALINS was glad to hear from the right honon'bill
gentleman that it was his intention to withdraw the foe
if this clause were sanctioned by the committee, for it ,
one calculated to destroy the character of the measure. di
After some remarks from Mr. Brown, Mr. Gregson, '
Mr.' Bass,

The house divided; when there appeared—
For the proviso'
108
Against it
Majority against the Government......—_-6 „gi
,
Mr. LOWE said that in consequence of the decisi°'"a,
come to, tht Government intended to abandon the bill. ('; tbo
cheers.) Since he had introduced the bill he had receive At'
opinion of Mr. Baron Bramwell, Mr. Justice Willes, thetbe;
torney-General, the Solicitor-General, Sir F. Kelly, and eve'
learned gentlemen, that in all loans where the lenders reciiiplo
a dividend according to the rate of profits they were net s t
as partners. The effect of the decision just come to 10..)
deprive these contracts of one of their sa.feguards.
Mr. DI'RAELI said that as a new principle had been rn
pel
duced into legislation by the statement'referred to, he u°oll
practice would be followed out, and the ease and op'
quoted laid upon the table of the house.
Mr. LOWE said he had no objection to do so; the e3s° be
referred to was that of the Union nk.
Mr. MALINS inquired if the opinßio ans referred to of tbe,t4:t
learned judges were not given when they were practisiii'
the bar ? (Hear, and laughter.) to
After some remarks from Mr. HENLEY in opposib°,er
extrajudicial statements being made in that house, the
ject dropped.
INCOME AND LAND TAXES BILL.
This bill was read a second time.
The Stamp Duties Bill and the Racehorse Duty Bill Tier°
read a second time.
The Episcopal and Capitular Estates Continuanso
wa% read a third time andassed.
sod The Mercantile Law Amendment Bill was read a 0 be
time, on the understanding that the first clause should
withdrawn in committee. hfi,te
he Lords' amendments to the Smoke Nuisance A'-„0?
rant (Metropolis) Act, 1853, Amendment Bill were C°-
dered and agreed to.
The Civil Service Superannuation Bill was pestpon
till Friday.
POOR-LAW AMENDMENT (SCOTLAND) BlrA•til
Mr. BLACKBURN moved that this bill be read a thi
time that day three months. di
,Pi
The LORD-ADVOCATE said that, notwithstanbse
the opposition of some of the Scotch members, he felt 1:40i
this was a very important measure, and he should supper
the bill.
The house then divided, when the numbers -were--
For the third reading. 95
Against it
Majority
The bill was then read the third time and passed.
The Indemnity Bill was read a third time.

The Nuisances Removal, &c. (Scotland) Bill was OP
third time and passed.
MARRIAGE LAW AMENDMENT (SCOTLAND)
BILL.
Sir J. GRAHAM said that this bill most apnroprig' e
followed the Nuisances Removal (Scotland) Bill, and di
plained that the effect of it was chiefly to compel a (1°'""
cil.e of 21 days of one of the parties to the marriage. tet
After some discussion the bill passed through counni"
The Mercantile Law Amendment Bill passed throlig
committee.
Upon the motion. of Mr. U. BERKELEY the CorrtlP
Practices Prevention Bill was postponed.
The Tithe Commutation Rent Charge Bill was with'
drawn.
The Ecclesiastical Courts Jurisdiction and Testament ati„
and Matrimonial Jurisdiction Bills were also withdrat'r'l
The Formation of Parishea, &c., Bill was read t'"
time and passed.
The Lunatic Asylum Acts Amendment Bill was read
second time.
The remaining orders were then disposed of, and
house adjourned at five minutes to two.'

rrVa,
LONDON: Printed and Published by BITTRDO
No, 112, Strand, Piinterr at The Sun Mee NO.'
Strand, in the P eci iet of the Savoy, ill tine ocntiv
Middlesex, Tuealayt July ,15. 1356.