The Sun.
London, England, 1860-02-03 00:00:00

THE StTN, LONDON, VRIDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 3, It6o.

the in-coming Lord Lieutenant for his outfit was classed
under the head of contingencies, but the house would bear
in mind that within a comparative) few years there had
been eight Viceroys appointed. (Hear, hear.) The allow-
ance of £2,000 a year to the High Commissioner of the
General Assembly of Scotland, and of £2,000 to the itine-
rant preachers, he should also like to remove; and last,
and not least, he was particularly desirous that the
£lBO,OOO paid for diplomatic services should be brought
into the estimates. A resolution which he had proposed
last session was rejected by a majority of 28 in a house
of 256 members, but he still hoped that Parliament
would see the advisability of exercising a control over the
expenditure in that department. The diplomatic service
cost the country last year £268,898, and the consular ser-
vice £252,796, making a total of £521,694. Besides this
charge on the Consolidated Fund he found that in the last
11 years there had been expended on the same account—
miscellaneous, £248,000; special missions, £133,000; Em-
bassy-houses,£2s3,ooo ; chapels, £95,500 ; rent and outfit,
£lOB,OOO and £70,000. So that, if some supervision were
not exercised over these sums, they would go on increasing
until in a few years the cost of these united diplomatic ser-
vices would amount to millions instead of thousands. He

, .-..... .. _ ........ ____ _
had given a plain unvarnished tale, with the object of in-
ducing the house to adopt some measures that might more
effectually check this stream of expenditure which received
but a very inadequate consideration when the period of late
sittings and hot nights came on—(hear, hear)—and when
members were tired and the house was impatient to enter
on other business. The only consideration at which he
had been able to arrive was that the people of England
had too much money. Southey had said that a Government
never could be too rich, but that the same observation did
not apply to the people who were governed. To impose
taxation was easy, and to disburse it was agreeable ; but the
payment of taxes, except in cases of great national emer-
gency, was a process that was always paigful and disagree-
able. (Hear, hear.) A rigid reform in the expenditure
might be very annoying to many of those persons who re-
preseßted ignorant incapacity and distinguished destitution,
but to the people of England a more rigid economy would be
very acceptable. Before placing any new burdens on the pub-
lic, the house ought to inquire whether the money it had
already granted was properly expended. There was no wish
to diminish the efficiency of the national service or refuse any
thing that would be for the national advantage. All that was
asked was, that the public mosey should not be wasted, that
the revenue should really be used for the public benefit, and
the little interests of little men should not be allowed to in-
terfere with the great interests of a great country. (Hear.
hear.) The hon. member concluded by moving his resolu-
tion. _ . .

Mr. A. SMITH seconded it. He feared that the vast in-
crease in the public expenditure during the last few years
could not be ascribed to the Government of the House of
Commons alone, but that Parliament, the Government, and
the public itself were all more or less involved in the blame.
He feared there were influences at work that induced the
house to relax in its duty of scrutinizing the estimates. It
had been said that only the upper classes were interested
in this expenditure. But on examination it would be found
that the amount of the expenditure by which this particular
class was benefitted was really very small. The middle
class had a large share in the advantage of this expenditure
and so had the class of mechanics and workmen. There
was a combination of the influence of all classes to urge on
an increase of expenditure. How often were members
of that house heard complaining that particular classes
of persons did not receive a proper amount of pay ? Some
hon. gentlemen took up the case of the officers employed
in the administration of the Poor Law, others that of the
mechanics in the different dockyards, or the officers of the
Customs' Department. From both sides of the house they
beard arguments why there should be an increase in the ex-
penditure for the benefit of particular parties. Another
principle also operated in the same direction. The Execu-
tive of the day, in order to carry out certain views of local
government, would place on the Consolidated Fund certain
sums as charges in relief of local expenditure. The house
sanctioned the practice, and the cents al Government gained
greater control in a certain department of administration.
But the result to the country was that the expenditure
was raised to more than it would have been had it been
borne either by the general or the local government alone.
It was simply burning the candle at both ends. Of this
kind were the grants in aid of education, which had been
enormously extended ; the grants in aid of county rates,
of the expenses of the Poor Law Board, grants for the
support of prisons and the rural police, with a
variety of other grants of the same kind. A recent act
had created a Board of Public Works, in addition to the
Board of Woods and Forests. Instead of being an economi-
cal arrangement, the new Board of Public Works now cost
more than the old Board of Woods and Forests—the latter
£23,000 annually, the former £26,000. In the accounts of
the Woods and Forests money was set down as capital that
ought to be returned asrevenue, and paidinto the Treasury.
The public was paying £50,000 to enhance the value of the
Crown lands that ought to be paid into the Treasury, as
part of the compensation paid to the country for the settle-
ment of the Civil List of the Sovereign. These points should
be clearly understood, he should therefore support the reso-
lution in flavour of an inquiry. '
Mr. LAING thought the house was very much indebted
to the hon. member who had made the present motion for
having brought under its notice a subject of great import-
ance and one which excited out of doors a considerable
amount of public interest. A very generil impression
seemed to prevail throughout the country that the expendi-
ture for the civil service had gone on of late years increasing
to a very alarming extent, and that, too, notwithstanding
it was supposed to be in a great degree under the control of
the House of Commons, and, not like the expenditure for
military and naval purposes, influenced by circumstances
which might render a large outlay unavoidable. It was,
therefore, that the civil service expenditure was regarded as
affording the best test of the economy of Parliament, and it
was for that reason, among others, that he held the opinion
that if the specific motion before the house should be
deemed to be well adapted to samara the end for which it
had been brought forward, and which every hon. member
must be anxious to attain, it should be at once acceded
to. It was quite clear at all events that, so far as the
convenience of the Government was concerned, the
appointment of the proposed committee would relieve them
from a very heavy responsibility; but as responsibility
could not be thrown to any degree upon one or two
bodies without pro tanto relieving the other from its pres •
sure, it was a point well worthy of consideration whether
the accomplishment of such a result would in itself be ex-
pedient. (Hear, hear.) The hon. gentleman (Mr. Wise)
had, it was true, contended that the objection which he had
just pointed out might in a great measure be removed by
submitting to the notice of the committee, not the estimates
of the ensuing, but those of the past financial year; but as
nearly four-fifths of the expenditure of one year were made
up of sums which reappeared in the estimates for the next,
it was quite clear that the committee, in sanctioning those
items, would, to a very considerable extent, remove from
tile shoulders of the Government any responsibility which
might attach to their re-insertion, and would furnish the
Miuister with a satisfactory answer to any such inconve-
nient questions which might b© addressed to him by the
hon. and learned member for Marylebone as to the large-
ness of the amount which the house might be asked to re-
vote under any particular head. (Hear, hear.) Be that,
however, as it might, he felt it to be hie duty to lay before
the house the real state of the civil service estimates, in
order that hon. members might be in a position to judge
upon whose shoulders it was most desirable that responsi-
bility with respect to them should be permitted to rest. He
should not in endeavouring to effect that object go further
back than the financial year 1852-3, when a large amount
had been transferred from the Consolidated Fund to the
estimates, inasmuch as any calculations based upon their
previous amount Would be because:of that change completely
illusory. Now, the hon. gentleman who had brought the ques-
tion under the notice of the house had referred to the greatly
increased expenditure in connexion with the public offices
last year as compared with the year 1846 ; but it was im-
portant in dealing with that subject to bear in mind that
the increase was to be accounted for by the transfer from the
Consolidated Fund to the estimates to which he (Mr. Laing)
had already alluded; the fact being that, instead of there
being any increase, there was in many instances a slight
diminution in the salaries of officers employed in our pub-
lia departments. But, to proceed to the statement of the
civil service expenditure, taking the financial years 1852-3
as a starting-point, he found that in that year the sum
voted under that head was £4,407,000, while in AU it
was £7,810,000, thus showing, in the expenditure in the
latter over the former year, what at first sight appeared to
bo an actual increase of £3,433,000. It mist be borne in
mind, however, that of that amount £1,500,000 must be laid
to the account of the transfer which in 1853—[An hon.
Member—" 1854"]—had been made to the estimates from
the Consolidated Fund. That being so, hon. members could
not fail to perceive that the real increase of expenditure for
the whole of the civil service, as between the two years which
he had mentioned, was somewhere about £1,900,000. And
how, let him ask, was that amount made up ? Chiefly of
items which were the result of legislation for which Par-
liament itself was responsible. Now, the first item of in-
crease during the seven years ending in 1859 which he
should mention was that under the head of education,
science, and art, in which there was an increase of £860,000;
the next was that which came under the head of law, jus-
tice, police, prisons, convicts, &c., in which the increase
for the same period had been £655,000 ; that under
the head of harbours being £150,000 ; of pub-
lic buildings, parks, &c., £150,000 ; of stationery, £20,000;
of postage, telegraphs, &c., £lOO,OOO ; making altogether a
total increaselof £1,800,000. There were, however, in ad-
dition, other charges made in the civil service estimates last
year, which were in reality connected with naval and mili-
tary objects, as for instance, a sum of £107,000, which had
been voted for the purpose of laying down a telegraph to
Gibraltar, to enable us to communicate with that fortress,
and also with our fleet in the Mediterranean ; and a sum of
£60.000 in connexion with the exchange upon remittances,
which, together with some smaller amounts, made up a sum
of £200,000, '
the total increase for the seven years ending in
18,58 bein e., as he had said before, about £1,900,0000. With
.respect to the expenditure which was incurred for the pub-
lic departments he thought it desirable to make a few re-
marks with the view of removing from the public mind the
e9Drrepopinayrettomo thenuseimpression that money was lavishly laid out in
connexion with them in order to increase patronage, espe-
cially for the benefit of the upper chi' ses of society. Now,
if such were the case—which it was not—the charge would
rather
than to any
dit ure for the
other. Treasury o
the a d p
ut the Colonial
c
inasmuch as eh Departmenttr
clerkships in those departments were more
sought after by young men of good family. He, however,
found that while the total expenditure for the Treasury'
was, in 1852, £54,400, it was in 1859 not more than
iZns4t,h6eoo ;
latterwhile
not
0 itn
more
the
e casethan
a onf
zt h3eo,
97810 n iTa lh-
ao Colonial-office, the
pu
bo
ex-
penditure,office, in
f
waohti,ch,inin
connexion
efxariomner with which
wa was
£ 38
thereBls, wasd
been any materially increased outlay in 1859, as compared
with 1852, was the Foreign-office, and the increase in that
instance was to be accounted for by the multiplication of
telegrams and special messengers. In the Cant of the Poor
Law Office there had been an actual decrease in the ex-
penditure in 1859 as compared with 1862, the sum voted for
it having been in the latter year £95,000, while in the for-
user it had been only £59,000. Taking the civil service
estimates generally, indeed, he found that, while there was
a great increase in that expenditure which might be said to
come more especially under Parliamentary control, A very
I eregar
management
tsi ad
amfi
till! set r ap
at
hi vl
iee economy serf ahse
roebws eerrve.:
acobnlesiidnerthabe
info
ar
teexa aenri
eprl ew,
ha
ige
hr eat
tthe
manye overi
nt
Teemen
t ine
atahled c ivi l
hardlye e r
by iec
sea
ieds tti
to
have any control whatever, as, for instance, in those cases
in which new establishments were brought into existence
owing to a vote of the House of Commons, with a fixed
scale of expenditure attached to their maintenance. Take
ae
the department of law and justice. That house had seen
fitadvantages
tl'sth:
.He was afraid
that considerable expense to the
quite so satisfactory as the hon. gentleman supposed;: end
ot
that at cheaphad justice
it
ee
ebnyd establish-
ing Is
.I. h.:
that in matters of expenditure a committee would not be
he could not give a better instance of what was Oicerr to

occur than that which happened in the case of a committee
over which the hon. member for Stafford presided—viz.,
the committee on our consular establishments. The recom-
mendations of that committee were of great value, and led
to great improvements in our consular system ; but, in so far
as economy was concerned, the result would have been an
increased expenditure £40,000 or £50,000 a year had the
Government, in revising the consular system, and carrying
out the principles of the committee, not been able to do so
in a less expensive way. He referred to that as affording the
house a proof of the difference that existed between the ac-
tion of a committee and the Government. Indeed, he could
hardly recollect an instance in which a committee had sat
to investigate any matters involving expenditure—such as
harbours of refuge, designs for the Foreign-office, or other
public works—in which the result of their labours, however
beneficial to the public, had not opposed the interests of
economy. (Hear, hear.) Another objection to the ap-
pointment of this committee was that all large items on
which the possibility of carrying out an extensive system
of economy mainly turned were devoted to subjects of such
general interest that the house could hardly be expected to
listen to the opinion of any committee in the event of its
recommending a reduction in them. Among these was the
vote for education, by far the largest and most important to
which his hon. friend had referred. The annual increase
that took place in the vote for education alone swallowed up
over and over again all that could be economised in smaller
matters. If they were only tohave regard toeconomy nothing
would be easier than to say how far the expenditure could be
cut down ; but, in the case of questions affecting the higher
interests of the country generally other considerations had to
be attended to. (Hear.) His hon. friend referred to the Woods
and Forests. There, _again, a great difficulty—andthat a con-
stitutional one—stood in the way of such an inquiry as he
suggested. If the Government or the country were absolute
owners of the whole of the Crown property there might be
no difficulty in saying what were best to be done. Pro-
bably it wouldn't° to convert the whole of their landed pro-
perty into money, and invest it in securities, where no staff
of officials or foresters would be required to guard it, be-
cause a large landed property scattered all over the king-
dom, including a great amount of waste land, was just that
sort of property that required all the supervision and eco-
nomy of a private individual owner to manage it well. They
all knew how the estates of joint stock companies were
ordinarilymanaged, and it was very probable that the State
could not manage such matters better than a joint-stock
company would do. But, then, there was the constitutional
difficulty that the property belonged to the Crown, that we
were not the real owners of it, and were not in a position to
dispose of it. We had only made a bargain with the Crown,
by which we agreed to manage it during the life of the Sove-
reign. The management of the Woods ,and Forests had,
however, been under the consideration of committees of
that house from time to time. Some years ago a committee
presided over by Lord Duncan took great interest in the sub-
ject, and many improvements were the result of its inves-
tigations. It was admitted that the department was much
better managed now than formerly, and the gentlemen at
the head of it, Mr. Gore and Mr. Howard, were exceedingly
assiduous and attentive to their duties. He knew that they
were anything but extravagantly disposed, and during the
short time he had been in office he was able to say that they
had endeavoured to manage the property in the best possible
manner. (Hear, hear.) He would say, in such circum-
stances, let the house watch the results, and if in course of
time they were not satisfied, then let a committee be ap-
pointed to discover abuses and infuse fresh vigour into the
department. He believed the appointment of a standing
committee would be open to the objection that it would re-
lieve parties from responsibility to whom they ought to
look for the right discharge of their duties ; and he could not
see that, with a responsibility resting partly on a committee
and partly on the Treasury and Woods and Forests, the
system would work well. (Hear.) There only remained
the question regarding the Consolidated Fund, and there
also a difficulty arose on a point of political principle. The
charges on the Consolidated Fund were those that they did
not wish to subject to the fluctuating chances of an annual
vote of the House of Commons. Among these were the
charges for the administration of law and justice, certain
ecclesiastical and theological payments, and the grant to
Maynooth, which were paid out of the Consolidated Fund
to avoid exciting questions being raised in that House. In
considering the appointment of a committee to deal with
these matters with to view to economy, the house should
bear in mind that, on the question of transferring votes of
this kind to the estimates, there was something to be said
on the other side. Instead of leading to economy, it was as
likely that there would be a pressure on them to increase the
votes, so that they might in reality have to pay larger sums
than when the charges came out of the Consolidate Fund.
He had thus adverted, as shortly as he could, to the reasons
which induced him, while agreeing in the object proposed
by his hon. friend, to doubt whether such a committee as
he had suggested was the best mode of attaining it. In
doing so he had been obliged to point out that the abuses
complained of arose very much from causes heyond the
control of the administrative department; but before sitting
down he was anxious to guard against being understood as
meaning that every thing had been done that ought to be
done to carry out economy in the public expenditure. But
if the Government were supported by public opinion, and
by that house in enforcing economical views, a good deal
might yet be done,—he would not say to return to the esti-
mates of former years, but certainly to arrest that increase,
which, if it went on as at present, would in a very short
time be formidable indeed. Government really could not do
much unless they were supported by the opinion of the
country. If public opinion, as reflected by that house, was
constantly urging a more liberal expenditure for objects of
admitted utility, which, though, perhaps, separately form-
ing but small items in the estimates, yet made up a con-
siderable aggregate, the Government could not long oppose
a very effectual resistance. But if, on the other hand, they
were supported by the house, there wore some questions on
which a good deal might be done. The question of educa-
tion, to which his hon. friend had referred, was one on which
he did not say considerations of economy were paramount ;
but still he thought, if these were admitted to have due
weight a good deal might be done. If every gentleman in
that house who had a taste for architecture took every op-
portunity of enforcing it according to his own notions, with
a total disregard of expense, a very large expenditure must
be incurred, seeing the necessity there was for the erection
of many public buildings. In regard to harbours of refuge,
again, there had been a constant pressure from all parts of
the country on the Government for the expenditure of a
large sum of money; but if supported, as he trusted they
would be, by public opinion and the house enforcing
economy in these matters, he did hope the case was not
altogether desperate. He could assure his hon. friend and
the house that the attention of the Government during the
recess had been most earnestly devoted to this subject. He
might say there was not a vote in the estimates for past
years which he himself had not gone through carefully,
anxious to make reductions. He could not venture to pro-
mise that the result of these reductions would be a very
great diminution in matters which had gone far beyond
control; but he did venture to hope that when the estimates
were produced it would be seen their exertions had not been
altogether useless. He thought the best course the house
could take, was to leave the whole responsibility for the pre-
sent on the Government, watching their progress very
closely, scrutinising very jealously every subject of expen-
diture in the estimates, and if, after giving them a fair trial,
they were not satisfied with the results; let them comedown
on them with a committee, not a standing or annual com-
mittee under which the Government might shelter them-
selves, but a committee whichwould be a reality, and would
bring home to the Government a sense of their responsi-
bility. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. B A.XTER thought both the house and the country
were exceedingly indebted to his hon. friend for bringing
forward this question. lie was rather disappointed with
the speech of his hon. friend the Secretary for the Treasury.
Something must be done to check the public expenditure,
and keep it within reasonable bounds. There was an abso-
lute necessity for economising the national expenditure.
Evert gentlemen who were inclined to be liberal, if not
lavi,h, in voting sums of money for the army and
navy, and for the defence of the country, ought most
carefully to tierutinise this expenditure. The hon. Secretary
for .the Treasury said it was the duty of every member of
that house to scrutinise the votes as submitted to Parlia-
ment, especially those proposed by the Government. Well,
ever since he had the honour of a seat in Parliament, for
the last five years, he had attended in that house almost
every supply night, and he must say, the conviction forced
itself ,42 his mind that no great benefit would or ever could
result to the cause they all had at heart, of national econo-
my, by debating and dividing upon a few of those small
items which formed together our civil service estimates.
During the period to which he had referred he believed he
was correct in stating that, with three or four exceptions,
every vote proposed by the Government had been carried
without reduetion, perhaps, in double that number of in-
stances votes had been expunged in consequence of there
having been a very narrow run the year before ; but this he
held to be a very small result; and without objecting to
each great subdivision of votes, or reducing each vote care-
fully and seriatia:, IA did not think much progress would
be made, or any groat reduction effected until gentlemen
who, like his hon. friend and himself, thoUght the expen-
diture was excessive, took a different course, and adopted
such a plan as this at a very early part of the session, say-
ing to the Government, "We are not prepared to expend
£7,500,000 on the civil service; we think £7,000,000 or
£'3,500,000 quite sufficient, and we wish you to form your
estimates on that basis." (Hear, hear.) He held, in
point of fact, that at present the house had no efficient
control over the public expenditure. They ought to throw
on the Government the responsibility of bringing forward
those votes which were absolutely necessary, but with some
such limit as he had suggested. He was disappointed
that the Secretary for the Treasury had not been able to
state that the Government had been enabled very much
to reduce the civil service expenditure. He had had con-
siderable faith in the right hon. gentleman the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer, and he was in hopes that
he would have devoted his great abilities to this
subject, and with success ; for he was firmly convinced,
not only that a great saving might be effected without diffi-
culty or detriment,-but with considerable advantage to the
public service. If any ono doubted this, let him read the
speech of the right hon. gentleman the member for Buck-
inghamshire upon this subject when last in office, who dis-
tinctly admitted that there was a very great profusion in
the civil service expenditure. Besides, the expurgation of
votes would save a great deal of the precious time of the
house. His hon. friend objected to this committee, and
there was a good deal of force in his objection to it being a
standing committee : but he had looked in vain for anyide-
claration of what the Government intended to substitute.
.The house and the country were agreed that the expendi
ture must be checked, and unless the Government were
prepared on their responsibility to tell them that it should
be reduced, he was to a considerable extent shut up to sup-
port the proposition of his hon. friend; and should the re-
sult not be satisfactory he thought it would be the bounden
duty of the house to affirm such resolution as he had sug-
gested. Sure he Was the day would come when they would
be forced by public opinion out of doors to devote more at-
tention to this subject than they had hitherto done, and it
would, without doubt, be one of the first great subjects dis-
cussed in the reformed Parliament. He thought they would
show themselves exceedingly shortsighted, if, supposing
there was no economical disposition on the part of the
people, they attempted to blink what, in his mind, was one
of the most important questions which could come under
the consideration of the Legislature. (Hear, hesr.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—My hon.
friend has stated that he was not entirely satisfied with the
tone and general effect of the speech of my hon. friend
thethei hi
economy,
meaning
Treasuryametpresentnay, Secretaryianng a for the Treasury. If that be so, it must
be because my honourable friend the Secretary to
s
ave
to
oh
tdaotit did
es
contendnwi ioeot
nl.
viwgeweh underinot
gentleman.
succeedlleymthaains.
popular
d iNothingfficuli
Government,
nyo v—c
eot
cmnhovaumtelyde•
thei
nn betg
mindifnairwerhiteehhfaninthmle-hheacetluomnngytryruhoun is . friend said. He stated that we
thneotscgale reaotlfy set
expenditure upon
isu
publicn -
doubtedly determined by public opinion, we must expect
etnhtepfpull:c
hfoeueislien,giv, is
lltsuch 'as my hon. friend
cathaanndtdsidwon.lhyteismutated, that feeling will, be reflected in the tone
40 cob:Tose the jLeteweill'steivi:. thyenatoenrethaensde
action of tilos° w

circumstances the hon. gentleman, I am sure, would not
form excessive anticipations as to any strong and decisive
impression being produced by any particular Govern-

ment on a course of feeling which has become established,
habitual—l might almost say inveterate—for some years
past. We have been tending in all respects towards a great

and rapid increase of expense, and it is in the nature of
things that the remedies to be applied to such a state of

affairs should be feeble in their origin, and that their first

results, at any rate, should be moderate in extent. It is

vain to hope, unless you have the concurrence of a powerful

feeling out of doors, that any particular Administration, at
any particular moment, will effect any great reduction in
your civil and miscellaneous expenditure. The hon. gentle-
man may say —if your power is small, you may,
at all events, show that your intentions are good.
Well, when we lay our miscellaneous estimate on the table
and enter on their discussion, I think we shall be able to
satisfy the house—l am sure we shall be able to satisfy the
hon. gentleman—than whom no hon. member is more

anxiously bent on economy—that we have given to this
question our best attention. But he would find, from the
statement of my hon. friend the Secretary to the Treasury,
that tho great bulk of the increase in those estimates is due

to a very small number of subjects, and that out of that
small number there aro one or two which it is extremely
difficult to control. I promise my hon. friend, however,
that when we produce our proposals in regard to them it
►ill be seen that, if little can be done at any given moment

by any given Administration, wo have yet sincerely en-
deavoured to examine into the means both of checking the

present rapid increase and, where possible, of introducing
a diminution in this important branch of our expenditure.
I am sorry to say that one of the great offenders in this
matter is, as has been already mentioned, the educational
vote. We have given the racist careful consideration during
the recess to this part of the estimates. But we found our-
selves confronted with this important fact—that a very
assiduous and intelligent commission was appointed two cr
three years ago to inquire into the whole subject, and that
it was hardly possible for the Executive Government to
propose, until that commission had reported, any changes
in the educational vote materially affecting the principles
on which it is founded. We have endeavoured. however,
at this early date, both to check the rapid extension of this
branch of expenditure, and also—where we could do it
without unduly trenching on the province of the commis-
sioners—to give Parliament an indication of the direction
in which further improvement may be made. lam bound
likewise to add, that I am satisfied the commissioners take
a very serious view of the evils involved in the rapid in-
crease of this vote, and that it will be a main object of their
labours to control, if not altogether to arrest, that increase.
I regret to say my hon. friend the Secretary to the
Treasury has rather understated than overstated this evil
in describing the gigantic strides with which, from the
smallest beginning, the educational estimate has advanced
to £2,000,000 per annum. Those practically acquainted
with this subject will tell you plainly that, if you continue
to act upon the rules now in force, no very long course
of years will have elapsed before this £2,000,000 reaches
£3,000,000, or indeed a much greater amount. The growth
of this expenditure not only tends to augment the national
burdens, but has a most enervating effect upon the public
mind; and therefore on moral considerations, as well as
financial, it demands our most earnest attention. With re-
spect to two or three other important sources of increase
which have already been pointed out, I venture to say that
it will be found that the Government have turned their best
attention to them during the recess. With regard to the mo-
tion now before us, I distinguish between it and the course
which the hon. member for Stafford invites us to take. I
cordially welcome the hon. gentleman as an ally in the cause
to which he has devoted his energies, and in which he has
shown not only so much zeal, but so much ability. I could
not recommend the house to adopt the suggestion of the hon.
gentleman who spoke last, viz., that it should refuse to go
beyond the limit of £6,500,000 in voting these estimates. It
would break my heart to think that no other remedy was
open to us. I do not think, even on the ground of prudence,
it would be a fit mode of dealing with an important ques-
tion. I thank my hon. friend for drawing our attention to
this subject; I am sure good will come out of this discus-
sion. It is not that the mind of the people of England is
obstinately fixed in these matters. It derives its tone in a
great degree from the temper of this house. And when it
is seen that we are in earnest on the subject of economy the
publio cut of doors will no doubt soon be found in harmony
with us. Although we are certainly acted upon by the po-
pular sentiment, we can also in return act powerfully on
that sentiment. The house and the country, in truth, act
and react on each ether. But with respect to this motion, I
frankly own I do not think it is in a state in which it can
be advantageously adopted. The hon. mover included
in his view at least three subjects; sin fact, there are
nearer 30 than 3, each of which must obviously go
before any committee that has to enter on this vast field.
Any Select Committee which had charge of the department
of Woods and Forests and the Land Revenues alone would
have sufficient work on its hands. Any committee ap-
pointed to examine into the expediency of making further
transfers from the consolidated fund to the votes would find
ample labour cut out for it. The hon. gentleman has alluded
to a particular item. It is an affair of £2,loo—the salary,
I think, of the Commissioner to the General Assembly. It
would take a committee more days than I should certainly
like to sit to determine whether a multiplicity of items of
that description ought to be transferred to the votes or not.
I am sorry it was not practicable to carry further the trans-
fers already effected. It was witbigireat reluctance that we
stopped short where we did. But the inquiry was a very
onerous one, and it alone would re luire the undivided exer-
tions of a select committee to conduct it satisfactorily. As
to the Civil service Estimates, I venture to say no single
committee could embrace the business of reviewing that
expenditure. It is se vast and so varied, and some of the
questions involved in it are so difficult, that it would task
the time and attention of several distinct committees. In
truth, the hon. member has sketched out in his motion
views and objects that call for a much larger machinery
than this house could supply and keep in eperation from
year to year. And here 1 come to a point on which lam
at issue with the framer of the resolition. A select com-
mittee of this kind appointed every year would not only not
be a good measure, but would be a decidedly bad one. It
would begin with taking away from the Executive its proper
responsibility, and would end by resolving all responsibility
into pure vapour; and it is impossible that a select com-
mittee could really be charged with the duties or the re-
sponsibilities of a public department from year to year.
What the House of Commons can do in this matter must
be done periodically. By periodically passing from one
subject to another the house may be able, through its com-
mittees, to do a great work in reviewing the Miscellaneous
Estimates ; and periodically, I grant, every one of the hon.
member's subjects is a legitimate subject for such an in-
quiry. But let us not deceive ourselves absut the power
and effect of these committees. A committee of this
nature sat 11 years ago. What was the issue of its labours ?
Why, a recommendation to abolish the office of a Lord of
the Treasury, whose salary was included in the Miscella-
neous Estimates. (Murmurs.) I believe I am correct in
stating that that was the principal and substantial measure
which proceeded from them. Therefore I am not very
sanguine as to the operation of such a committee, unless it
be appointed with a very special aim and devotes all its best
energies to the discharge of its duties. I hope that, for
these reasons, the hon. gentleman will not expect me to
accede to his motion. I give no opinion on the question
whether the tune has yet arrived at which it would be de •
sirable to appoint another committee on the Miscellaneous
Estimates. Do not understand me to place any negative
on that subject. I would rather reserve my opinion upon
it. But I think, if I may say so, that having a new Admi-
nistration in office, it might be as well if the house allowed-
us to lay our Miscellaneous Estimates on the table, and if
the hon. gentleman, or any other hon. member reserved it
to himself to consider whether it would bo for the public in-
terest that a committee of this kind should be appointed.
Such a committee as is now proposed I hope the hon. gen-
tleman does not mean to press, for I certainly do not think
it consistent with the duty of the Government to assent
to it.

Mr. BRIGHT wished to make an observation upon the
two speeches which had just been delivered from the Trea-
sury bench. If those speeches were logical and to be taken
as authorative there was no remedy for the present evils, of
which nobody appeared to complain so loudly as the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer. (A. laugh.) Because, if no such
motion as his hon. friend had proposed wore adopted, it was
quite clear that they were shut up to the plan which was
now followed, and which, according to every speaker who
had yet addressed the house, was leading us to a condition
of things most alarming and deplorable. He always found
the Chancellor of the Exchequer complaining on these
occasions that the house and the country were not suffi-
ciently economical, and yet every Chancellor of the Exche-
quer refused to accept anything that would give the
public departments the power to resist proposals of increased
expenditure. Years ago the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
when asked to sanction suchproposals, used to say, " What
do you think Mr. Hume will say ?" Mr. Hume was not
there now, and unfortunately his mantle did not appear to
have fallen upon any member of the house. (Much laughter,
and a general look in the direction of the seat occupied by
the hon. member for Lambeth.) He had heard Chancellors
of the Exchequer make this answer to those who besieged
the Treasury for additional expense. Why did they thus
use Mr. Hume's name ?: Because they felt the necessity of
some power beyond their own, oven if it were only the pre-
tence of a power. (Hear, hear.) Suppose the Chancellor of
the Exchequer had such a committee as was now proposed
to refer to and to fall back upon—not a committee like the
Library Committee, that nobody know any thing about—
and he for one never heard of anything they ever did—(a
laugh)—but a committee honourably chosen every session,
not packed for special objects, as they generally were.
(Hear, hear.) 'rho Treasury might then say, when gentle-
men came to them from all parts of the country demanding
additional expenditure, " IVe cannot put such an increase
into the estimate;. If we do, do you think the 15 gentlemen
appointed by the Houseof Commons will agree to a proposal
of this nature ?" Thus between the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer and the committee a very efficient check would be
put upon many items of expenditure that were now voted
without question. A few years ago a committee sat to in-
quire into the civil service estimates. One of the older mem-
bers of the committee, not now in the house, told him there
was a young member of the house connected by special ties
with the Whig families, and it was his casting vote that de-
stroyed that otherwise immortal Lord of the Treasury. (A
laugh.) What was the fate of that young member after-
wards? Why, they never put him on a committee from
that day to this, and never would unless he repented. (A
laugh.) Another committee was afterwards appointed. The
noble lord (J. Russell), who was then Prime Minister,
agreed that a fair committee should be appointed to inquire
into the expenses incurred by official salaries. The hon.
member for Rochdale (Mr. Cobden) was a member of that
committee, he was another, the member for Coventry was
also upon it, and it was composed of the usual number of
members. The committee examined Sir R. Peel, the pre-
sent Prime Minister, the noble lord now the Secretary of
State for Foreign Affairs, and many members then in the
house. What did they recommend ? There were many
recommendations that they agreed to unanimously, there
were many others upon which a large majority were agreed,
and the total of the reductions they recommended amounted
to £70,000 to £S0,000:a-year. What was the result ? The
salary of the Judge-Advocate was reduced by £5OO, and
that of the Secretary of the Treasury by an equal sum. The
Gov'ernment reduced the salary of a noble lord at the Poor-
law Board £5OO, whereupon. he resigned. (Ur, Disraeli—