The Sun.
London, England, 1860-07-18 00:00:00

soul the country that the House of Lords had committed a

gigantic innovation, seemed willing, when pressed for
money, to put the insult offered to him in his pocket and to
defer all consideration of the constitutional question to
another time. He neither agreed with the Chancellor of
the Exchequer nor with the noble lord the member for
Marylebone, but he would just ask who it was that called
upon the house to proceed to action ? Who was it that got
up, and forgetting the silence imposed upon him urged the
house to resort to strong measures ? (Hear, hear.) The
right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and
yet upon this occasion the right hon. gentleman deferred to
silence. The right hon. gentleman was performing a mili-
tary operation, which gentlemen in the army called marking
time. The right hon. gentleman was for marking time, but
how long it would be continued nobody knew. He had felt
astonished at the noble lord the member for Marylebone
stating that he did not believe in the existence of differences
in the Cabinet, and after the speech which they had just
heard he thought there was no chance of any difference, for
the right hon. gentleman would remain in office to enable
him to mark the time for action. (Hear, hear.) He never
was so satisfied with having Abstained from voting on the
repeal of the paper duty as he had felt after the speech of
the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the previous night, be-
cause he thought the right hon. gentleman had convincingly
proved tothe house that when he moved the repeal of the
paper duty he was totally ignorant of what the state of the
finances of the country would be. (Hear, hear.) He said so
because from the first he had been opposed to the repeal,
and he complained that the Chancellor of the Exchequer
had placed him in an awkward position. (A. laugh.) Yes ;
for he had been placed against his own will in conflict with
the House of Lords on this question. It was not a fair po-
sition to place that house or the House of Lords in. He
thought the House of Lords acted prudently, but he also
thought that they had acted unconstitutionally. He was
aware that the great majority of the House of Commons was
opposed to the repeal of the paper duty, and that many ab-
stained from voting against it that they might throw the
responsibility of rejecting it upon the House of Lords.
(Opposition cheers.) They had been told that honesty was
the best policy, and he believed that the character of that
house was most advanced by telling the truth upon all occa-
sions, and acting upon the proverb so aptly quoted by the
noble lord the member for Marylebone. So much for the
speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He now came
to the resolution, and it was nothing more than'a resolution
of the noble lord the member for Marylebone, and he must
say that upon the same grounds that he objected to the re-
solutions of the noble lord on a late occasion, he objected
to the 4th resolution of the noble member for Marylebone.
(Hear.) He gave the noble lord due credit that it was
expressed in intelligible and grammatical language—
(laughter)—but it was nothing more than a resolution, and
the noble lord told them, at the same time that he talked of
the rights and privileges of the House of Commons, that
they might put what gloss they pleased upon it. (Laugh-
ter.) There was no more intention of acting upon it than
there was upon the resolutions cf the noble lord. (Opposi-
tion cheers.) The noble lord represented a very important,
wealthy, and intelligent constituency. (A laugh.) He
repeated that there were few constituencies so noble, so
wealthy, and so well informed ; and no doubt the noble
lord was giving expression to the sentiments of many of his
constituents ; but with great respect to the noble lord and
his constituency, he thought the motion exceedingly ill-
timed. (Cheers and laughter.) For what had been the
-course of the noble lord upon a late and most fitting occa-
sion for the statement of his views ? When the three re-
solutions were moved by the First Minister an amendment
was moved by the hon. member for Finsbury for an address
not to prorogue the present sittings of Parliament till the
bill for the repeal of the 'excise on paper had received the
royal assent, and the noble lord's measure would have been
a fitting one to introduce at that time. But what did
the noble lord do ? He got up at a meeting of the great
Liberal party, and he (Mr. Osborne) had been told that the
great Liberal party on that occasion amounted to 22.' (Op-
position cheers and laughter.) The noble got up and asked
the hon. member for Finsbury to withdraw his resolution,
and the motion was withdrawn by the hon. member, who
believed that in so doing he was meeting the wishes of the
great Liberal party. But what happened then ? The hon.
member for Plymouth in a speech which, however it might
not be agreed with by members of that house, they would
say was one of great merit and ability, moved a most tem-
perate amendment, which might have been voted for by the
noble lord and those who agreed with him with perfect consist-
ency. (Hear.) amendment
should be ..itharawn also. It was supposed that they
....ust be unanimous. See what they got by being una-
nimous. The honourable colleague of the noble lord had
case an amendment, making the amendment of the hon.
member for Plymouth much stronger, but he was not
allowed to move it. The hon. member was the chair-
man of the great Liberal party which met in the tea-room.
(Laughter.) Why did not the noble lord support the amend-
ment of the hon. member for Plymouth, or that of his hon.
colleague, the member for Marylebone ? The house had
got now nothing more than a fourth resolution to the three
miserable resolutions they had the other night, and intro-
duced with a speech in which they were told they might
put any gloss they liked upon it. Having opposed the re-
solutions of the first Minister of the Crown, he could not
vote for the motion of the noble lord the member for Mary-
lebone. He could understand the course taken by the hon.
member for Tavistock ; but he had made one mistake in
citing the instance of the French chamber, for whatever
electoral corruption might exist in this country, this he
could take upon himself to say, that the character of public
men on both sides of the house was above impeachment
and above the breath of slander; and whatever might be
the faults of the constitutional system or the representative
government of this country, no man in or out of that house
could say that any breath of slander could attach to any
public man in the house. (Cheers.) He had been led ont
of the consideration of the general question by a few re-
marks of the hon. gentleman ; but returning to the ques-
tion immediately before the house, he felt himself placed in
a most awkward position. They had heard the Chancellor
of the Exchequer, and the right hon. gentleman's action
was deferred, and he was evidently standing at ease.
(Laughter.) He was afraid they were placing themselves
in a ridiculous position, and to avoid that he should take re-
fuge in moving the previous question.
Mr. CONINGHAM would venture to say the proposi-
tion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer with reference to
the paper duty hid been loyally and thoroughly supported
by the right hon. gentleman ; but he was sorry to find the
support which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had re-
ceived from his colleagues was not equally loyal. (Cries of
"Divide.") He ventured to say that the repeal of the paper
duty would be a great benefit to the people of this country.
(Continued interruption.)
Mr. DISRAELI—Sir, I am afraid the house is placed in
a somewhat embarrassing position by the two motions from
the benches opposite. The hon. member for Hull has
given us an account of the general state of feeling which
pervades those benches. (Hear, hear.) There is a proverb
familiar to us all, which, however, I w.ll not quote, as to
the locality in which one should wash one's dirty linen.
(Laughter.) There might be a controversy as to whether
that operation should take place in public or in private,
but there can be no doubt that our political dirty
linen should not be washed in the House of
Commons. (Cheers and laughter.) I have heard
with regret the causes of this misunderstanding l etween
the two sections opposite which hitherto have only been the
subject of rumour; but now that they have been mentioned
I would suggest that, instead of bringing them before our
consideration again, there should rather be some meeting
held in some other locality sufficiently public, where these
arrangements might be made to the general satisfaction
of the supporters of the Government. (Hear, hear.)
The right hon. gentleman went on to say that the meeting,
for example, might take place at Willis's Rooms. (Loud
laughter.) There was some diminished confidence in her
Majesty's Government on the part of gentlemen below the
gangway, who styled themselves the great Liberal party.
There was some diminution of confidence, not because the
question of parliamentary reform had not been carried to a
successful issue—not because church rates had not been
abolished—not because the promises of the administration
held out to 'the country a year ago had net been accom-
plished—not for these great causes and great considerations
had this deplorable misunderstanding had its origin, but
because there did not seem to exist that interchange of
courtesy and blandness of demeanour which was expected
from those who supported a government to those who go-
verned the country. (Cheers and laughter.) In these days,
when an Emperor had not been ashamed to acknowledge
himself a parvenu, these hon. gentlemen might be reminded
that they themselves were rather of a parvenu origin, and
that there was a degree of sensitiveness on their parts
which was essential to the successful management of affairs
—it was necessary on their parts to curb and restrain.
(Laughter.) But whatever might be the course of pro-
ceeding of that house to-night ho must remind the house
that the question before it was a very serious one, and that
much depended upon the manner in which they encoun-
tered it. They were asked to decide upon the conduct of
the House of Lords with respect to a recent transaction,
upon which it was unnecessary for him to dwell. He had
listened with great attention to both Ministers who had
spoken in the course of this debate. The Prime Minister
had only suggested a mode by which to extricate himself
and his friends from an awkward situation. The Chancel •
for of the Exchequer reneunced that suggestion of the
Prime Minister. The Prime Minister recommended that no
vote should be passed by the house on this resolution, but
the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his speech in support of
the Prime Minister offered a variety of reasons why they
should oppose that resolution. That resolution asserted in
the most formal manper, that the rejection of the bill was
4A encroachment on the rights of the House of Commons,
but that question had been solemnly deliberated upon by
the house. The Prime Minister had moved three resolu-

tions, which it was his pride and boast were unanimously
supported, and why :so ? Because this house must have
held that they were resolutions which dealt adequately
with the subject they proposed to meet. That was at least
the impression that influenced him (Mr. Disraeli), and he
believed he might add every gentleman on his side of the
. _

house. (Cheers.) They :asserted the privileges of the
house so amply that the noble lord (Lord Fermoy)
said he was perfectly ready to rest the privileges of the
house upon the language of these resolutions. Then why
did the noble lord propose another resolution ? The noble
lord admitted the second resolution of the Prime Minister,
and that resolution acknowledged the right of the House of
Lords to reject a bill in its entirety. After that the noble

lords proposed to them to declare that it was incumbent

upon them to take steps to assert their rights and privileges
He (Mr. Disraeli) said they had already taken the proper
course to do so. He could not agree with the noble lord
upon either of the two heads of his resolution. The first
made an assertion with respect to the privileges of the house
with which he (the right hon. gentleman) could not agree,
and which was contrary to the resolutions which the house
had passed unanimously only a few days since. In the
second part the noble lord said it was incumbent upon them
to adopt a practical measure for the vindication of rights
which the house had already vindicated. If he (Mr.
Disraeli) had agreed to such a course, he should stultify
everything he had agreed to, and if this resolution were
carried it would counteract all the resolutions which had
been passed at the instance of the noble lord. But what
was the course recommended by her Majesty's Govern-
ment ? He confessed that he had listened to the speech of
the noble viscount with astonishment. He was there to sup-
port the Government in the course in which the house had
in a generous spirit promised them its countenance. Was
all that passed to be blotted out because of an intemperate
resolution proposed by the member for Marylebone, and
because it might suit some member of the Cabinet not to
meet that resolution with a direct negative ? (Cheers.) The
honour of the Government and of the First Minister de-
manded that they should stand by the decision of the other
night. He thought that after the temperate and wise
measures which the Government had last night brought for-
ward, supported by the unanimous voice of the House of
Commons, it was not for them to reverse that moderate
course which had recommended them to all the thinking
portion of the community. He considered• that they were
bound to meet the resolution by a direct and unequivocal
negative. (Cheers.) The house was not placed in any
equivocal position that might have rendered it convenient
to adopt that shabbiest of all devices, the previous question.
(Cheers.) He was far from desirous, however, that any
division should take place which might give even the ap-
pearance of a party triumph to the gentlemen around him
—a triumph they would owe• to the unhappy dissensions
which had arisen amongst the Government, and which he
hoped would seon.pass away. (Laughter.) If the noble
lord would strip this unfortunate motion of the previous
question he would give him his support ; and he felt cer-
tain that the noble lord would also receive the support of
an overwhelming majority of the house. (Cheers.)
Sir G. GREY denied that the right hon. gentleman was
justified in assuming that his noble friend was anxious
again to unsettle this question. His noble friend merely
wished to rest the case upon those resolutions which the
house had passed, and which he was satisfied were suffi•
dent for the purpose. If the house adopted the previous
question, the purport of that step would be merely to as-
sert the determination of the house not to re-open the con-
troversy. (Hear.)
Lord FERMOY having replied,
Mr. BOUVERIE moved the adjournment of the debate,
but the proposal was negatived without a division.
The house then divided on 1 he previous question—namely,
" That the question be now put."

Ayes
Noes

Majority —39
The question was therefore not put. The numbers were
received with loud cheers below the gangway.
SALMON FISHERIES.

On the motion of Mr. FENWICK it was agreed that an
humble address be presented to her Majesty, praying that
she will be graciously pleased to issue a commission of in-
quiry into the salmon fisheries of England and Wales
with the view of increasing the supply of a valuable article
of food for the benefit of the public.
VOLUNTEERS (IRELAND) BILL.

Col. FRENCH asked leave to bring in a bill to extend
to Ireland all powers to make rules and regulations for the
enrolment and organisation of volunteer corps which are
now by law applicable to Great Britain. He thought that
the same privileges should be extended to Ireland as had
produced such results in this country, and therefore he re-
gretted to find it was opposed by her Majesty's Govern-
ment.
After some conversation,
Col. GREVILLE moved that the house do now adjourn.
The house then divided, when the motion for the ad-
journment was carried by a majority of 61 to 28.
The house then adjourned at 25 minutes to 3 o'clock.