The Sun.
London, England, 1856-03-07 00:00:00

oble lord the member for London, and the hon. baronet
opposite, while insisting on religions instruction, were yet
willing to reduce it to a shadow—to a degree which ap-
proached as nearly as possible to secular education, and
which no religious man would accept as religious educa-
tion. He thought the argument which had been used
against free schools supported by taxes was not valid, for
if the ratepayers supported the school they had a right to
get an equivalent for the rates they paid. The unfair com-
petition with private schoolmasters, with respect to which
apprehension was expressed, did not at present exist, in
consequence of the existence of schools supported by volun-
tary subscriptions. And he did not think that any harm,
but much good, would bodone by carrying the principle
one step f urther. He should be glad to support any part of
. the system propounded by the noble lord which he could,
but he would be no party to the establishment of denomi-
national schools, which would make every parish a scene
of religions strife. He thought it would be better to con-
eine the education given in the national schools to secular
instruction, and let the scholars delive their religions edu-
cation at Sunday-schools and at home. The experience of
the model secular school at Manchester showed that thefact
that children attending a secular school was net inconsis-
tent with their also attending a Sunday-school where they
received religious education. Out of 541 boys at that
school, there were only 61 who did not receive religious in-
" struction in connection with the Sunday-schools of some
, . denomination. He certainly did hope that the noble lord
would not insist on that part of his plan which rendered it
necessary that a system of religions education should be
supported by public rates. If he did, he (Mr. Gibson)
should not be able to support him. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. MIALL, although be differed from the principles
en which the plan of the noble lord was founded, was quite
ready to acknowledge the care and caution with which he
had approached a most difficult subject. He thought, how
ever, that the noble lord had much under-estimated the
amount of the education at present given to the rising
generation. It might be desirable that all children between
certain ages should be at school, lentlhat was impossible
when competition was so severe, and when the parents
were so pressed to obtain the means of livelihood. He ap-
proved of the plan of the noble lord, because it did not lay
down an uniform system, but was capable of being adapted
to the wants of the different localities. Withrespect to the
question of religions or secular education, he must say that
although he did not rate very highly the religious educa-
tion at present given in schools, he thought it was of the
highest importance that the schoolmaster shOuld not feel
himself cramped in the communication of instruction, or
in the attempt to exercise a religious influence over the
minds of the scholars. But, whatever might be the merits
of a, system of secular education, it was clear that it was
one so much opposed to the feelings of the country that it
would be wholly impracticable to establish it in England.
One great cause why there was not more appreciation of
the benefits of education on the part of the lower classes,
lay in the fact that we did not teach the children in our
schools that which was useful to them in after life. Teach
them "common things ;" let them feel that every day
spent at school was a benefit to them in after life, and he
believed the people would eagerly avail themselves of any
means of education placed at their disposal, and would be
ready to pay for them. He was afraid, looking at the state
of opinion in that house and in the country, that thenoble
lord's plan would share the fate of other plans which had
, preceded it, and that while the members of that house
were discussing how the people were to be educated the
people would educate themselves. (Hear.)
Sir 'S. NOKTEICOTE (lid not think that the provi-
sion of 'the noble lord with respect to the compulsory
attendance of children at school went far enough. There
was now a movement for compelling the education of cri-
minal children, and the noble lord'e plan would tell
with children whoa, perehits look care to send them to
school. Bat between thesrtwo classes there lay a third,
from which the criminal population was mainly recruited,
and these the noble lord's resolutions would not affect. •
Now, he feared that 'unless this were done, the efforts of
those engaged in the reformatory movement would be alto-
gether nugatory. An set applying only to Scotland had
been passed lest year, which enabled magistrates to send
to school children miming about the streets and doing
nothing. It was true that the noble lord proposed to hold
out certain inducements to attend 'school to the class he had
described. Ent then, as be only proposed to' give them
literary instruction, -while it was of main importance to
give them an industrial training, he must say he did not
think that the plan of the noble lord went far enough, and
he hoped that be would consider whether he could not in-
troduce a resolution more closely applicable to the case of
these " City Arabs." (Hear.)
Lord PALMERSTON said—Sir, I am sure the house will
concur with me in the ;"ratification I have felt in listening
to the address of the noble lord behind me (Lord John
Russell) upon a subject to which he has for so many years
given his attention. (Hear, hear.) I think the course he
has adopted is the best he could take under the circum-
stances, namely, to submit these resolutions, and abstain
from calling upon the house for the expression of any opi-
nion at this moment. lam sure these resolutions will re-
ceive the attention that they deserve, and upon some future
day the house will be asked to come to some definite deci-
sion upon the subject. There is an old saying that those
who will the end must also will the means, lent that maxim
will sot apply in the present case. There is no one who
wills the great end of popular education more earnestly than
my noble friend, and I may say that the will of the coun-
try tends to the same object. The great difficulty is the
means by which this is to be accomplished. Out of the
many and various opinions that have been advanced during
this debate, some agreeing with the views of my noble
friend, and some differing from him, I think we may ex-
tract this fact, that there is a unanimous desire that some
arrangement may be came to. • It has been said that the
lower classes do not sufficiently appreciate the value of
education for their children, but I think their omitting to
send their children to school may be explained without
imputing to them any absence of a proper desire to edu-
cate their children. Unfortunately, the education hitherto
afforded theta has net been that which would be useful to
children of that class in after life. In some 'schools they
are taught things totally incompatible with their condi-
tion. (Hear, hear.) In others, they are set to learn the
principles of political economy, matters certainly of
great use to those who are called upon to apply them
in practice, but to the labouring classes far beyond the
requirements of their future occupation and position.
The great object should be to teach them useful things,
applicable to the industrial pursuits in which they may
hereafter be engaged. Wtr have various opinions as t 3
the degree to which intellectual culture should be
added to moral and religions instruction. I think,
for my own part, that if you do not unite those things,
yen do not accomplish the true purpose of education.
Unfortazately that last point, religious education, is the
rook upon which all parties have split; bust it is to be
hoped that some principle, which may overcome this diffi-
culty, will, before long, be settled and brought into prac-
flee. Several hon. gentlemen have taken comprehensive
views of this matter that certainty appear calculated to
lead to this very desirable end. I will only say further,
that I have to thank my noble friend (Lord J. Russell) not
only for the able address with which he has favoured the
house this evening, hut for the many years of labour he
has devote Ito this most important subject. The efforts he
has meat, will always fie honourable to himself, and I be-
lieve they have beers of very great advantage to the country.
Mr. If ADF/ELD considered this as only another addi-
tion to the many millions of good resolutions that had
brought forth nothing. He believed that Government in-
terference had .lone mere to retard popular education than
any other cense.' It ;popped those -voluntary efforts which
lied produced roost mighty effects when left alone. It was
idle to say the working claSses did not want education.
There were 45!) millions of letters went through the Posts
office &penally, rind who wrote them ? Not the upper or
middle chows.% hnt clerks, sprung chiefly from the class
this wincation was intended for. In 1818 there were
477,299 children attending day schools, and in 1851 (four
years ago) there were 2,407,416, of whom 2,100,000 at-
tended Sunday schools. The children attended Sunday
sehoole, and there was the greatest confidence in the
teachers', who received not a farthing of remuneration.
In fact, no class of persons was snore respected by the
working classes. How was it the children did not go to the
day schools more ? There was no lack of schools or school
room ; in fact there was an excess; lent these pretended
etoverurnent arrangements did all,the evil, and prevented
private efforts. One gentlereau 'in Scotland, Mr. Fergus-
eon, had left 400,0001. for the education of children in
Scotland, and many morh would follow his example if
they were left. alone. • •
Lord J. RUSSELL thanked the house for the reception
they had given his resolutions. He did not expect that
they would have been received without dissent, and with
regard to the question of secular education, he thought the
hones would not adopt it. (Hear.) The
riends of volun-
tary education had tried their system for 150 years, and it
had been found to he a failure. He eulogised the advan-
tages of Sunday schools, and said that with regard to the
proposal he had laid before the house, it had been wig-
geeted to him that it would he better to consider these re-
solutions in a committee of the whole house ; and, in con-
sequeuce, he proposed to withdraw the resolution before
the house, and move intend that the whole of them be
taken into consideration on the 10th of April ; and that
to-morrow he would move that on that day the orders of
he day silieuld take precedence of notices of motion.—
Agreed to.

lark.

OXFORD COMMISSIONgRS REGULATIONS.
Mr. HEY WOOD moved an address to her Majesty,
praying that she will he pleased to withheld her approba-
tion from the regulations and ordinances recently sanc-
tioned by the Oxford Commissioners for the amendment of
the Statutes of Exeter, Lincoln, and Corpus Christi Col-
lege; in the University of Oxford, such regulations and
ordinances being in many points inconsistent with the
spirit
J.
the Oxford University Act of 1.4.11. Sir . PA.KINGTON. complained of the omission in the
new hith
new statuterteso of any reference to a ground preference, which
prev ailed in nearly all the Colleges of Oxford,
in elections to scholarships and fellowships—namely, the
pecenisry position and means of the candidate. With the
view of calling, the attention of the Government to the sub-
ject, anil of putting his sentiments u
an amendment of the motion. pon record, he moved
Sir G. GREY said that, doubts having arisen with re-
gard to these statutes, the Government had decided to
Advise the Crown to refer them to the Privy Council,
assisted by the Attorney and Solicitor-General, as
assessors.
After a short discussion, the motion and the amendment
were both withdrawn, •
UT-PENIONE RS' (GREENWICH AND CHELSEA)
BILL.
Thin bill passed through committee.
CONSOLIDATED FUND (k 20,000,000) BILL.
Tilis bill passed through committee.
The hense adjourned at 23 minutes past one o'clock.

PAIRS' ON Sig W. CLAY'S MOTION.
Fon. AGATN9T.
, Nr. Ban , 31r. linizlit
i, Lqrd Shelburne Me. Baldoek
Sir. ‘Vickhom SFr M. Stewart
Mr. Marshall Sir G. Berkeley
Ur. G. lloyrard - (Mono! Buck '
Mr. P. Prica • Mr; Wondl
Mr. !Tolland Sir J. linel:worth
mi.. P. ('Brien , Nit% Ilimenek
Sir T. O'Brien" 'Tr, Maunsell
Sergeant O'Brien . Mr. Napier
Sir J. Matheson '.' bard Waive
. Sir J. Owen • " Sir E. U. Booth
..Mr. J. O'Connell Mr. Ajsrancier
Mr. Estnon4 .
gr. Verner,
Mr. Portman SiA
- ) , ton! Galway
!tit., Denby Sesn,,,ij .
'Sir G. Dashwood Sir J. Trollops
• Mr. C. Cavendish Sir C. Burrell
Mr.-Walter Mr. Lockhart
Mr. Rich fir:Scott.
, •
Sir M. Berke.:sy Sir. Frewon
Mr. Tralll Lori Blandford
air. Lindsay Mr. Franklyn
1.,1rd in.
Mr. Masterman
r
Lord Emlyn
Ifr. Collier , . _ Mr. iraribury
Mr. Golkott
liteUt.-Cole2ol 7344

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