The Sun.
London, England, 1860-02-14 00:00:00

THE SUN,' LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 14, 1860.

21 people—seven lords, 18 commissioners, and nine secre-
taries... The present estimates amount to D 2,802,000, or
more than double those of 1821, and the superintendence of
the Admiralty consists of only 13 persons—namely, six
lords, two secretaries, and five principal officers. We are
obliged to take a oonsiderable sum this year for additional
clerical assistance, temporary clerks, and the like ; but on
' referrine• to the accountsof 1821 I find that the clerking do-
partment was then about as numerous as new. The cost of
the Admiralty at Whitehall was £123,986, in 1821, against
£97,308 at the present time. (Hear, hear.) Another item
of increase in this vote is in consequence of the Board order
which was made at the time when the right hon. baronet
was at the head of the Admiralty. It provides that the
Director of the Works Department shall no longer be
charged with Vote 11, but that the expenditure shall be
shown under the heads of each establishment, and I believe
it is a very good arrangement. (Hear, hear.) I should
mention that as there is such a vast amount of business in
the Controller's Department it is absolutely necessary to
give him sorneassistance, and I believe it will be a positive
matter of economy. The fact is that this officer, who super-
intends the dockyard expenditure, and who really ought
to be constantly going into the dockyards, overlooking the
construction of ships and alterations taking place, is kept
a prisoner in his office by the vast amount of business which
he has to do. (Hear.) The Duke of Somerset has gone
into the report of the Committee on Dockyard Economy, i
and his minute, which will be shortly in the hands of mem-
bore, presents many suggestions and remarks which will
be found to be very valuable. Having given some atten-
tion to the question of the payment of the men in the dock-
yard., I must admit that it is fraught with difficulties.
Whether to pay the men by day labour, whether by task or
job, whether their earnings are to be unlimited, and whether
they are to work extra time, are all matters of vital import-
ance. The question involves the expenditure of millions
of the public money, and therefore it has been considered
very carefully by the Admiralty. But lam bound to say
that when the hoe, member who has given notice of such
a motion proposes an inquiry, he will not find any great
opposition on the part of the Admiralty. (Cheers.) In
the meantime it will be our business to reform wherever
we can. We shall not wait for the report of that commit-
tee to carry out improvements which we think are to the
advantage of the service, but we shall really look forward to
that inquiry with a considerable amount of interest. (Hear.)
It is not that we consider the Dockyard Committee has not
done its duty. They have made many most valuable sug-
gestions, and some of them we have already carried out.
With regard, for instance, to the entry of apprentices, we
have taken steps to improve that system, and various other
details upon which I will not dilate. We still think, how-
ever, that there is a feeling on the part of the country that
we do not got value for our money. (Cheers) With that
feeling existing, it is wisdom, both on the part of Govern-
ment and of Parliament to forward by every means any
inquiry which may be thought necessary. If it shall
be found that the present system works well, no man will
rejoice more than I shall, or snore than, I am sure, will
the right hon. baronet. But if any method can be found of
constructing men of war—always bearing in mind that they
must be built with reference to all these requirements—at a
less expense, it will be the duty of her Majesty's Govern-
ment to give every possible assistance in making that dis-
covery. (Hear, hoar.) There is no material increase in
Vote 4, for the Coastguard. We take, it will be observed,
the same amount for the annual retainers, conduct-money,
&c., for the Naval Reserve, as we did last year. This new
force, to which the country looks with so much satisfaction,
has certainly up to the present time not fulfilled tho expec-
tations which were raised. I always felt, from the first,
that it was an experiment. I know what seamen are. They
are fine, noble, hearty creatures, but men of remarkably
suspicious character, and if there are any people they are
suspicious of, it is the Admiralty. (Laughter.) We are
really much indebted to the Board of Trade for the exer-
tions which they have made in drawing up the regulations
and giving us their assistance to carry out the measure. I
wish I could state to the house that the men were entering
freely ; but they are not. Captain Browne reports from the
different merchant ports that the men say, "We think the
Inducement very fair. 'We think it very handsome; but
they only want to kidnap us. The moment we put our
names down they will send us off to China." It is very
curious to see men labouring under that delusion. I have
been asked over and over again by directors of the great
shipping companies, and by men of importance in these
commercial ports, for some assurance on the part of the
Government that the men will not be called out until war
is declared. I told them I could not give that assurance,
but I also told them that it was perfectly certain there was
no intention to call them out, except in the event of a
critical emergency; that the throat of immediate hos-
tilities, or of something which would oblige us to make
the greatest exertions for the protection of our shores,
were the only circumstances under which the Go-
vernment would call for their services. If I can re-
assure them by what I say to-night, I really believe little
more is wanting to induce them to flock to the force.
(Hear, hear.) It is so far satisfactory that they are begin-
ning to get over this extraordinary idea. I wish to declare
to them that her Majesty's Government have no sort of in-
tention to kidnap them into the navy. (Hear, hear.) And
perhaps I had better add a more practical assurance—that
if we wished we could not enter them in the navy, because
the number is complete, and except for casualties we have
no means of entering any considerable number of men over
and above what wo have at present. (Hear.) I think that
is a very satisfactory state of things, and that the house
will be glad to hear there is no difficulty in getting men.
It must be remembered that a vast force of ships is only the
creation of the last few months, and that this fleet is wholly
manned. (Cheers.) The bounty has been reduced to Xi
for able, and £2 for ordinary seamen. I will not enter into
the question of the propriety of the bounty. The bounty
has been given, and all the men are enjoying it. They are .
now in that respect on the same footing as the army, and
we can raisethe bounty to-morrow without committing any
injustice to the men already in the service. Her Majesty's
Government have not come to any decision upon the sub •
ject. It is a small sum—only £20,000 out of the millions
we vote for the navy. It is a gift on entering the service
which enables the men to purchase clothes and other articles,
and it is a question whether it is not advisable to continue
it. At present it is only in force until the 21st of March
next. (Hoar, hear.) Upon vote 5. for the scientific branch,
there is a small increase, in which I think the house will
be disposed to agree. The charge is for chronometers. The
house will scarcely credit that up to this time officers in
command of ships have been obliged to buy their own chro-
nometers, and it really is a scandal to the service that we
should have cast this burden upon officers, many of them
poor gentlemen, who have enough to do to pay their way.
Line-of-battle ships, frigates, and troop -ships will have
three, sloops two, and gunboats one. (Hear, hear.) Vote
6 is for her Majesty's establishment at home, and on this
vote I am going to ask the house to agree to an inconsider-
able increase to permit the employment of two assist-
ant-superintendents at the great yards of Portsmouth and
Plymouth. What I have said about the Comptroller of the
Navy is doubly true with regard to the superintendents of
these two great yards. One of the great reasons, I have
alwayi thought, why we hear of Piling in the dockyard's,
and of there net being as much activity there as there ought
to be, arises from the constant confinement of the superin-
tendents to their offices. Their whole business is to write
letters—and I put it to the house whether that is a proper
occupation for such officials. (Hear, hear.) If you want
economy you must not stint your superintendents. You
must enable them to go about the dockyards and see that
the men aro not idling. The appointmeut of these two as-
sistant superintendents may save thousands of pounds by
keeping the men at work. (Hear, hear.) The Admiralty
have also thought it their duty to look into the whole ques-
tion of the correspondence of the superintendents. lam
afraid to tell the house the number of returns we asked for.
Our table at the Admiralty is literally swamped with' the
dockyard papers, but we are endeavouring to go into this
matter of returns with a view of suppressing such as are no
longer necessary, and I trust that we may produce a groat
lessening of labour. It will be observed by the house that
in all these yards additional temporary clerks are employed.
We are quite aware of the growing. evil of these temporary
clerks. (Hear.) It has become a public inconvenience in those
great establishments ; but the house must remember that if
you have additional workmen and additional ships in com-
mission the work of the clerks is also increased in the same
ratio. We propose to take into consideration whether some
improvement may not be made in the establishment of the
clerks with a view to lessening labour. No 7is the vote for
foreign yards,in which there is a small increase for increased
business, principally at Malta and the Mediterranean yards.
On vote 8 for artificers, my right hon. friend opposite
will, perhaps, find fault with me because we have reduced
it somewhat. When the present Board of Admiralty came
into office, we asked the house to agree to an addition
of £lOO,OOO on this vote, over and above what the right hon.
gentleman had proposed. We did so, because
if that
useonrlficoroenocoeo
to the Surveyor of the Navy he told us that
were not added to the estimate, it
whichwo theuldberitgmhptohsosniblefos
him to complete the programme
gen-
tleman had laid before the house. We asked the house,
therefore, to agree to that £lOO,OOO ; but we have now made
such progress that the Government think it possible to re-
tvheert
rtioght the ehosna.mgeenntulentnibaohr ofwa
gm
3l3'edoawrdheonf
Admiralty. This therefore is, in fact, not a decrease, but
as
only knocking off the £lOO,OOO which we took over and
a ent
the were
head ofem tphl
above the right hon. gentleman's estimate of last year. Vote
9 is the same as last year, with the exception of a small sum
for the artificers of the fleet, who aro allowed extra pay
when they are employed in th© dockyards ashore. Vote 10,
for the repair and building of ships, I have always thought
ought to bear the motto—

" Diruit, cediticat, mutat, quadratarotundis."
It is all pulling to pieces, building up again, and altering
in every shape. (Hear, hear.) Looking narrowly into those
alterations, I may differ somewhat from some of my col-
leagues as to the extent to which the conversion of ships
ought to be carried. Because I am in office I am not going to
retreat from the opinion which I expressed out of office. I
greatly dislike these alterations. My opinion is that these
old ships aro not worth the time and money expended on
them. In my humble opinion, it is like putting "new wine
into old bottles." (Hear.) The two woods do not agree,
and they speedily decay. If you cut a hole into one of these
old ships and put an engine into it, it may be made very
valuable for the defence of the country as a superior kind of
block ship, but I cannot agree in the propriety of lengthen-
ing them at the bows, cutting them in two, and so on.
This vote is composed of several items, but I cannot say
that it gives any great detailed information. (Hear, hear.)
The items aro largo and the information small. The
Board of Admiralty have anxiously considered their vote,
and they are most desirous of giving every possible in-
formation with regard to it. I should have liked to lay
this vote on the table very much in the same form as vote 11
for public works, but the Admiralty laboured under very
great difficulties with regard to it. I am very unwilling to
impute blame to any ono, but if I were to impute blame to
any one, it would be to the House of Commons, who have
never really asked for any detailed information with regard
to this great vote No. 10. I ant naturally told when I
for information, How can we give an estimate for a future
year, when we really don't know what proportion of
money we have expended during the past year on building,
or on repairing, or on what particular ships it has been ex-
pended." The Board of Admiralty called on the Accountant-
General to give a return which I very much wish was now
on the table of the house—of the cost of ships during the
past year. That return, which is of a very interesting cha-
racter, gives the name and the cost of every ship in the navy
under six different heads—namely, ships building, convert-
ing from sail to screw, maintenance of ships in commission,
of the steam reserve, Of old sailing ships in ordinary, and
maintenance of the dockyard guard. The timber, beams,
and other stores required for these different purposes are
likewise shown. I do not say that the return is perfect,
because it is a novelty; it has hitherto existed in the dock-
yard, but it has never yet been practically turned to account,
and the items consequently have not been properly charged
—in fact, it may be sail that its present value is nil as com-
pared with what it will be in future years. As the name of
the dockyard is attached to each ship, with the particulars
of the amount of material consumed, the cost of labour, the
outlay on hog engines, and every detail respecting her inter-
nal construction and fitting out, the Admiralty will be at
once enabled to refer to the cost of each vessel, and to com-
pare it with the cost of similar vessels in the other yards.
(Hoar, hear.) In all matters of account there is nothing like
publieity_(hear, hoar)—and I ant persuaded that one great
and immediate effect of this comparative view of the cost of

ships will be a direct tendency to economy in the several
establishments. (Hear, hear.) Take the case of a ves-
sel in commission very few persons who have not
turned their attention to that subject can form any idea
of the cost to which the country is put by each addi-
tional line-of-battle-ship. The public say, " Give us
ten line-of-battle ships additional ;" this return will
give them an idea of the magnitude of the request. (Hear.)
Within the last few days a gallant officer in command of
one of her Majesty's vessels and an intimate friend of mine,
called at the Admiralty, and in the course of conversation I
showed him what his ship had cost during the past year,
and he was absolutely thunderstruck. (Hear, hear.)
Sir C. NAPIE It—Such a return existed once before.
Lord C. PAGET—What haa been done shows what is
capable of being done, and I trust that if my right hon.
friend (Sir J. Pakington) succeeds to office, he will continue
to require the same information. When two or three years
have elapsed, wo shall be able to place this vote upon a
much more intelligible and satisfactory footing, by striking
an average of the cost which this return will exhibit. I have
shown the house what we possess in ships built ; it will now
be interested, probably, in knowing what we have con-
structed in tonnage, and what we propose to build during
the present year. It may possibly be remembered that, in
proposing the estimates last year we announced our inten-
tion, of course subject to contingencies, of building 46,000
tons of shipping in the dockyards.
Sir J. PAKINGTON--Exclusive of conversions ?
Lord C. PAGET—We said we would convert four line-
of-battle ships and five frigates, in addition. What we
have actually built amounts to 19,730 tons in ships of the
line, 13,654 in frigates, 5,436 in corvettes, and 522 in gun
vessels. We have not fulfilled our promise as to frigates,
in which class I stated that we would build 16,000 tons, the
reason being that there was an insufficiency of timber for
the purpose; but we have made up for this deficiency in
another way, for we have gone beyond our andertaking in
the conversion of sailing into steam frigates and screw ships.
(Hear, hear.) What we propose doing in the present, or, as
my right hon. friend reminds me, the ensuing financial year,
is to build 13,216 tons of ships of the line, 13,500 tons of
frigates, 4,871 tons of corvettes, 8,045 tons of sloops and gun
vessels' and 302 tons of gunboats, making a total of 39,934
tons. In addition we propose to convert four more line-of-
battle ships and four frigates. It is necessary that I
should afford some idea of the expenditure of timber that
is required. Our ordinary establishment in the dockyards,
which is regarded as two years' stock, consists of 60,000
loads of timber for shipbuilding purposes ; but during the
present financial year, instead of consuming the ordinary
rate of 30,000 loads, we have used 64,000 loads of timber,
the result of which has been that we have been literally
unable te import timber with the same rapidity with which
we were working it up. Of copper, also, it has boon found
exceedingly difficult to procure an adequate supply, for this
last year wo have consumed nearly 1,000 tone. (Hear,
hear.) Some discrepancy will be observed between 8 and
10, which should bear a strict proportion to each other ;
but, having thus leesenel our stock of timber, we this
year require a larger sum by £Bl,OOO on that account, and
we do not increase the number of men in an equal ratio. It
may not be uninteresting to the house to know what the
French are doing in this respect. It is true that they have
greater facilities for procuring timber than we have, but
they have in stock 160,000 loads, or sufficient to build 15
line-of-battle ships, 16 frigates, and 15 corvettes, which is a
stock far above anything we have ever had in this coun-
try. (Hear.) The next item, for coals, also exhibits an
increase, not only because we have a snore numerous fleet,
but because we were obliged to send a large stock to China.
I pass to the next item, for the purpose of steam machinery,
as to which the house would, doubtless, desire some infor-
mation. We are building eugines fur line-of-battle ships
to the extent of 5,700-horse power; for frigates, 7,100-
horse power; other vessels and corvettes, 1,200-horse
power; sloops, 3,000 horse power; gun vessels, 1,200-
horse power; gunboats, 600-horse power—that is t say, a
/rower in all equal to that of 13,800 horses. These cost
£55 15s. each horse power. This is a very high price for
machinery, no doubt. But if the committee look carefully
to the items that compose a steam engine for a man-of-
war, they will agree with the Committee on Steam
Machinery, who report that, regard Using had to the
difference between them, tho navy steam engines do not
cost more than those of merchant vessels. They must have
spare gear, their engines must work in a small apace, and
they are in ether respects very much more expensive than
those of the merchant service. I will now turn to the iron-
cased ships which are building. The right hon. gentleman
opposite (Sir J. Pakington), hearing that they wore build-
ing in France several of these vessels, thought it right to
take a supplemoutary or special vote—l think a supplemen-
tary vote—for building two iron-cased frigates, one of
which was ordered to be built before the late Government
quitted (AEU. Tho right hon. gentleman asked me, soon
after the present Government same into office, whether the
Admiralty were going on with the second frigate. I replied
that the Board of Admiralty were carrying out certain ex-
periments, and that if they were satisfactory the Admiralty
would go on with the second frigate. Shortly afterwards
the Admiralty ordered a second frigate to be built of the
same dimensions as the first. These vessels are of enor-
mous scantling and very large tonnage. The Warrior and
the Black Prince are of 6,039 tons each, and 1,200-horse
of
fo wt
heor. se Twhheoy
hwe
il
el
ybee
tehnatti rely
theyc awsieldl
hwei tvhe
si
sr
00
ll s
oafnad
mostonei
for-
midable nature. There will be two of the tonnage I have
mentioned, and there will also be two of a smaller tonnage,
3,368 tons, which the Board of Admiralty will have built
during the autumn. They will be iron-cased, and will have
the same power of resisting shots, and the same capability
of defence. The late Board ordered six sloops of 200-horse
power and 12 gun vessels of 18-horse power. The present
Board have ordered 10 gun-boats of 60-horse power, making
the total cost during the present and future financial year
that we are building by centract of £1,355,807. This sum, I
ought to add, includes the machinery. It is an enormous
sum, over and above what we are building in our dockyards.
These are the trincipal items of vote 10. We are very anxi-
ous to give every information on this vote. We are duly
sensible of the necessity of economy in building our ships,
and we trust that the inquiry which is to be moved for by
my hon. friend on the labour in our dockyards will give ut
great assistance herein. At present the country is in the po-
sition of a very wealthy gentleman who has lived very gene-
rously, and has not called for his bills; who has bean, in
short, what is called a "fast man." If he determined te
live economically for the future, the first thing he would do
would be to collect his accounts. That is the first process
for economising these great dockyard votes. We want to
know the amount of cost and the value of stock, and then
we shall look about us and see if we cannot reform. (Hear,
hear.) I now turn with pleasure to vote 11 (new works,
improvements, and repairs in the yards), for this is the only
vote for the effective service that shows a real reduction.
I believe that we have taken every sum that is requisite for
keeping our dockyards in really good repair, while at the
83.1110 time we have avoided any now works except in a few
cases, the vote being mostly expended in completing the
work of our predecessors. I used formerly to be of opinion
that many of our new works were on too grand a scale, and
I confess that my visits to the dockyards have confirmed
my views. I accompanied my noble friend (the Duko of
Somerset) to 'Woolwich, and we looked at a magnificent
building, overtopping the Thames, sad looking like some
great palace. This was the new Marine Infirmary. We
walked over it and paced its stately colonnades, and I am
afraid we were both sordid enough to say that its architec-
tural magnificence cost too much money. (Hear, hear.) At
Keyhsni the same remark occurred. No doubt. there are
great public buildings iu our dockyards, all of them very
necessary, but too much attention has, I think, in many
cases been given to architectural design, and too much scope
to the taste of our engineers. Now, the present Board of
Admiralty disapprove greatly of any unnecessary expendi-
ture of this kind, and when the architects and engineers of
our yards have brought us remarkably tasteful designs for
our approbation we have rejected them, and asked them to
give us something more simple. (Hear.) I take some pride
in having kept this vote down, and I do not believe that any
oo rukorme agl loyarequired
dhcacekbae
at
npoomrtistmt eodu. t
hFNvoiri
sstance,ubs t a ivael
ich
r
vtsvwhhioaceot seeN4isfnrsosccommenced
drat.ooswrn sseaan
infi
nhit
increase,
ine
crease
saxeeeset y,
et
vb. eooauftirrte:n,olafotoBget oobll,l2o3eaoo,ynd,
footdi
beyond
we
etnhrwee
reasons
hialasaanots dn-
is
miscellaneousams t
nfasoekdrceimeensglaaiitsyoni
ser-
vices :tea.
orrsl
er-1,
shown in the votes,. and I now turn to vote 14—the half-
pay vote—to which I would ask the attention of my hen
friend the member for Sunderland. He is under the idea
that the non-effective charge for the navy is growing year'
by year, and is becoming so great a burden as to require
looking into. But so far from that, the half-pay vote for
the future year shows a decrease of £27,000. This is, in
fact, a yearly decreasing vote, and in a few years, as the
elder officers give way to nature—(" Hear, hear," from Ad-
iotatoffisstacshaee the
serious
greatlyas
iodnouddensi
Ad-
miral Walcott)—the committee will remember my hon. and
gallant friend's eloquence on that subject—the burden will
haoionsnneei
assdailhdc
charge I m must now allude
improvingl taon tdh
altering
vote
tShle2o,oyoso..
tern of retirement of officers of the royal navy, with a view
firfivacet etinns ct:s rt.
the
enidrteereduction
Admiralty
p romi not
promotion
nses numbersunder
td
heo
erf
junior ranks of the navy. (Hear, hear.) It is not only an
uofaofcprt of
t,
htohef
fie fleet,jesut
esrrs justice
to
service,
t become
mt
Ihe
he
e fyndsbelievehifofficers,roourtlehd nebtnrueaot necessaryntwdhi
lesllbaaeellkno
woi tonedd difficulty
a atechiure efficiency
li
itt}u.wti
yneepa,enrtand
uoa tna
di
noni
n oglnoetnhgl
ei
es
rt
h.
be
eulaf a
house to
pt certaineonadue
d
nt rate
ototheioxsfe
sr
mt promotiontahllesmu mme I.v e notvwhitehnkt kept
we
cwohmicehtowtilhleacffeenestidthee ranksratio of lieutenants
itselfnofthevote I
commanders,shall bepre- pared to state to the house the
particulars
of
the
plan,
and
and, in some degree, the captains. This is the onlycharge
I need mention under this head, with one exception. We
have at last succeeded. in establishing pensions for the
widows of warrant officers. (" Hear, hear," from Sir C.
Napier.) lam convinced that no grant will be more ap-
preciated by the navy ; at present it is limited to £5OO,
and that sum, I may say, we have screwed out of the
Chancellor of the "Exchequer. (Hear, hear, and laughter.)
but my right hon. friend has conceded it, on
All preceding Chancellors of the Exchequer have resisted
thet m the
e grant;
1 that it is just and right. (Hear, hear.) Tho
last vote to which I shall call the attention of the house
is that for transport. It does not properly belong to the ex-
penses of the navy; but the Admiralty has to provide all the
means ef ocean transport for the army. 'We have thought
it right to take for the present year the large suns of £120,000
for the freight of ships on monthly pay, or for the purchase of
them, besides the vote for the conveyanceof stores and troops.
I may now close this statement. In doing
my own feelings if I did not add thatitis with extreme pain
so I should belie
that I find myself compelled to be the instrument of propos-
ing to vote this vast sum of money for the navy. But lam
convinced that it is the wish of the people of this nation
that their navy should be well and efficiently maintained.--
that the country should be under no alarm—that, whatever
may happen, the people may be able to say, " We are safe
under the protection of our navy." Ina discussion on the
defenses of the country last year, some very valuableadvice
was given to the house by my hon. friend the member for
Rochdale (Mr. Cobden). He thought that much of our
naval force might with advantage be abolished ; but there
was one passage of his speech so marked by patriotism and
containing such sound and reasonable views that I can't help
reading it to the house. I believe it cannot do better than
fellow the advice conveyed. The hon. member for Roch-
dale said " he did not wish to reduce our navy to the same
force as that of France ; but he should like to see the two
Governments agree on some relative proportion of force ;
thus, the French navy might be two-thirds that of England
—where the French had two ships England might have
three." If you examine the state of the French navy you
will find we have not surpassed what the hon. member for
Rochdale" considered the necessary superiority of our navy
tiepartsound
over that of France. (Hear, hear.) And taking into con-
sideration the strength of the Russian navy, I say we are
bounday to
ocof ul continue
dulnief our
efficienttyls Government
fexertionsootiilgt till wß eatp,
thataiceeu though
our
ol nsuoagyi
yto,hnoe
they
have agreed to these very large estimates, they do not con-
sider themselves bound to expend them, should circum-
stances render a loss amount sufficient. We thought it
better to ask the house at once to grant a sufficient amount
of money, and number of men, than:to apply to it again with
additional votes and supplementary estimates. But if the
aeppoueatrinefantouranadblet,hrtohueghooouvternthme
ewntorwldilignonoteratwllyl
dispute with China. thould end peacefully, if public affairs
sohnoutlhdelly

bound to spend the full amount of the vote, because the
House has generously granted it. I thank the Hseuse
for the indulgence it has extended to the statement I
have made ; and I shall be glad to answer any queetioia.
reference to it.
On the first vote of £2,216,945 to defray the chem.@ of
54,000 officers, seamen, mai boys to be employed in her
Majesty's fleet for the ensuing year, being put by the
chairman,
Sir J. PAK INGTON said,—When I took up the navy
estimates for this year I certainly felt some curiosity to see
how far the opinions the noble lord expressed last year, as
to the new form in which certain votes, especially vote 10,
ought to appear on the estimates, had been carried out.
But I found vote 10 on the paper, wearing very much its
old shape. Still, it is only just to the noble lord to say that
his statement has not only been very clear, but made with
that openness and candour the House of Commons has a
right to expect from the Government of the day. The
Government has, I admit, asked the House for un-
usually large estimates ; but I do not think they are
larger than circumstances require; and they prove a de-
termination on the part of her Majesty's Government to act
in the same spirit as the late Ministry. (Hear, hear.) It
is the first duty of the Government of the day, as I believe
it is the anxious desire of tho country, to maintain the
navy in a perfectly efficient condition. There is, no doubt,
great increase in the estimates, as compared with former
years ; but I am willing to believe, on the authority of the
noble lord, that they are not larger than the necessity of the
case requires. The great expenditure is of course caused
by the large ailment of men called for, and by the efforts
made to increase the number of our ships. I am ex-
tremely glad to see by the return which was this morning
pmt into our hands by the Admiralty, that the programme
which I submitted to the House a year ago, on the part of
the late Government, has been essentially carried out.
(Hear.) It will be in the recollection of the committee that
in the programme of last year I announced the intention of
the then Government to add 15 to our line-of-battle ships,
thereby increasing the number of effective screw line-of-
battle ships from 33 to 48. I see by the return before me
that that programme has been exactly carried out during
the year. (Cheers.) My noble friend has stated that a con-
siderable number more are to bo added during the ensuing
year; that we are to have at least 11 additional line-of-battle
ships, which will raise the number from 48 to 69, (Hear.)
This leads me to an inquiry if some importance, and that is
whether the present Board of Admiralty has arrived at any
decision as to the number of line-of-battle ships they propose
ultimately to have. (Hear.) This is a point to which I
know the noble lord the Secretary of the Admiralty has de-
voted much attention. He has repeatedly expressed the
opinion in this house that we should give up the building of
line-of-battle ships, that line-of-battle ships are compara-
tively useless, and that we should devote our attention to
the building of other classes of ships. I could not concur
with the noble lord in the views he thus expressed. I never
would be a party to any change of that kind till we had fully
established the proper superiority of England in line-of-
battle ships to all the other nations of Europe. (Hear.) But
I may state that, so far as the late Board of Admiralty had
considered this subject, we had—l will not say definitely
arrived at the conclusion—but had entertained the opinion
that if this country possessed 50 efficient screw line-of -battle
ships, it would be so far satisfactory as to enable us to pause
and deal with this great question. (Hear.) My noble friend
and all who are conversant with the subject will admit that
there is strong mese& to suppose we are approaching a time
when it will become a question how far these line-of-battle
ships are the most effective ships of the navy. Why, we have
heard this dapfrom inynoble friend, as part of the plans of the
late Government, carried out by the present Government, of
the building of such ships as the Mersey and the Orlando on
a system which introduces a new element into this question
—ships of the same tonnage as the largest in the navy, and
carrying not a great number of guns, but guns of the
greatest power and calibre, and forming very formidable
armaments. (Hear.) Then we have changes going on
in the manufacture of ordnance, and the construction of
Armstrong guns, all which feirly raise the question as to the
limits within which we should confine the building of line-of-
battle ships. (Hear.) I hope, however, that I shall not be
misunderstood. De not let us pause till we have fully esta-
blished the superiority of this country in that description
of ships. At the same time bearing in mind the great ex-
pense of building these ships, let us consider what will be
the probable effect of the changes to which I have adverted.
I should like to know, therefore, how far the Government
are now layine down new ships of that class, and whether
they have adopted any limit at which they may pause, and
wait to see what the effects of the changes going on really
are. (Hear, hear.) Last year I promised, it will be recol-
lected, nine screw frigates—five new, and four conversions
—and I am glad to see that the promise I held out is so
nearly fulfilled. Having made these remerks on the build-
ing of ships, allow me to say a few words on that heavy
item which was the principal cause of the excess of outlay
last year—the addition of men. I stated last year that we
proposed an addition of 3,000 men; and subsequently we
brought down supplementary estimates for 10,000 men and
marines. This was a large addition ; but the noble lord has
announced a still further addition, and I am bound to as-
sume that the proposal is made by the Government in con-
sequence of the strong opinion they entertain of its neces-
sity. lam therefore not disposed to make any complaint
on the score of that addition. (Hear, hear.) lam glad to
find that the Admiralty have not lost sight of the recom-
mendation of the commissioners to lock up a certain num-
ber of men in our ports. My noble friend brought some-
thing like a charge against me with regard to the masters
of the navy. He alluded to what I had done with regard
to certain officers, but said I had overlooked the masters
and other classes. (Hear, hear.) Tleat is not the case,
for the late Government had it in contemplation to deal
with the masters and those other classes to which he re-
ferred, and were only prevented carrying out their inten-
tions .by circumstances which they could not control. I
did not clearly understand what fell from my noble friend
as to the office of the Controller of the Navy. Is there
to be any change in the arrangements of that office. [Lord
C. PAGET—lnstructions are to be given of a more direct
character for its regulation.] lam happy to hear that the
attention of the noble lord has been directed to this subject,
as when in office I contemplated considerable changes in
this department; and whatever the alterations no w proposed
may be, I should like to have more definite information
regarding them. I was also glad to hear what the noble
lord said with regard to apprentices in our dockyards. I
trust that what he proposes will have the effect of improv-
ing this class of workmen, and checking that tendency to
political jobbery that has been under all Governments a
source of great complaint and annoyance, and which I did
all in my power to suppress. (Hear, hear.) The evil com-
plained of is a very serious one, and I hope the regulations
in regard to apprentices will go a great way to check it.
(Hear, hear.) I believe it is quite indispensable that this
country should, within a very short period, embark in a
large expenditure for the improvement of our dockyards. I
am convinced that you will be unable to keep up the navy,
with duo regard to economy and to the interests of the coun-
try, unless your dockyards are made more efficient than they
are at present. (Hear, hear.) For instance, take Chatham—
Lord C. PAGET—We are taking £lO,OOO with that view
for Chatham.
Sir J. PAKINGTON—My noble friend surely does not
mean to say that .ClO,OOO will be anything like sufficient for
the purpose at Chatham. He only takes that sum to con-
tinue and carry out a previous arrangement, on which a con-
siderable amount has already been expended, and to complete
which a very much larger sum its required. If you intend
to make Chatham a dockyard such as it ought to be, you
must make up your minds to a much larger outlay. (Hoar,
hear.) It only remains for me to allude to the two
last subjects to which eny noble friend adverted—namely,
the pensions for the widows of warrant officers and the re-
tirement of senior officers in the navy. With regard to
warrant officers widow, I always thought it most desirable
to grant such pensions, but I was not so successful in carry-
ing out my views in that respect as my noble friend has
been, and I congratulate him on achieving a success which
I was unable to attain. With respect to the retirement of
officers, that is a subject to which I am glad to hear the pre-
sent Board of Admiralty have directed attention. There was
no subject on which I felt more strongly when I left the
Board than the absolute necessity of adopting some ins-
preyed mode of retirement, so as to remove that check to
promotion which has always been a matter of just com-
plaint. (Hear, hear.) Ima glad that the present Board
have directed their attention to the subject, and T shall
wait with some anxiety to hear any explanation of their
plan. I will only eidd that in following my noble friend it
affords me much satisfaction to be able to speak in the tone
in which I have done. (Hear, hear.)
Sir C. NAPIER was glad to hear the noble lord (Lord C.
Paget) not only give an exact statement of our own navy,
but also of those of France and Russia. He had shown that
France had 244 V 1168016 of every description ready for sea;
Russia, 235 ; and England, 234. Ho had also told the com-
mittee that Franco could man the whole of her ships with
her reserves whenever she thought proper, and he (Sir C.
Napier) had seen it stated in a Paris newspaper that k ranee
had not less than 90,000 men on whom she could at any
time lay lands. Russia had always her fleet manned ; Eng-
land alone could not man her fleet. He had worked for
20 years in and out of that house, in order to see the navy
placed on a proper footing. (Hear, hear.) He lead been
called an alarmist and laughed at for many years on that
account ; but the country had at length adopted his views
and forood the present Government, as it did the last, to
proceed in putting the navy in a proper condition.
IYith respect to the practice of conversion, he agreed
with the late First Lord that ships could be converted
with advantage. The Neptune, 'the Nelson, and others,
which had been converted, had turned out remarkably fine
ships. He could not, however, agree in the propriety of
cutting a bole' in the stern of the ship without lengthening
her. In the case of such ships as the Edinburgh and the
Ajax, that course had been found by experience sot to an-
swer. They were neither fit to sail nor to steam. They were,
in fact, altogether unfit to go to sea, and if they got on a
lee shore nothing on earth could save them. The navy
estimates were certainly very large, but he submitted the
country would get the value of their money. We never had
seen the navy, in respect to ships, in a better position than
it was at present. But still the country must expect to lay
its account for the building of a new navy. Our groat ally
was determined to have iron ships. Between him and us it
had become a matter of the longest purse, and the question
was, where were we to stop ? We had got ships, but what
use were they so long as we had not mon ? It was melan-
choly to think that in this great maritime nation we could
not raise an adequate reserve of seamen for the navy. There
must be some -eation why the navy was so unpopular, and
Parliament must try to get at the root of it. He could nut
conceive why we should not have more marines, and keep
there on shore, with the exception of about 100 on hoard each
ship. A reserve for the navy must be found somewhere or
other, and as there was an enormous number of fishermen
and of users whose occupation was looking out for wrecks
along our shores, he should advocate the expediency of
leaving recourse to a system of ballot in our maritime towns,
which should include the inhabitants of those districts. The
systemic under which men who lead never done a single stroke
of work for the Queen were allowed to put down their names
on the reserve list, and while at liberty to go where they
pleased receive £6 a-year, was, he thought, by no means a
good one to secure the object we had in view. The course
which ho should pursue would be to leave to every seaman
when his ship was paid off the option of being placed in the re-
serve or not as he might think proper, allowing him to count two
years towards his pension for every three years' service. At
present the Admiralty had no means of knowing what men
entitled to pensions had refused to take them. The Admi-
ralty ought to know those men, and if it could once be made
known that 4,000 men had entered the reserve, the intelli-
gence would spread throughout the merchant service, and
the reserve would soon be filled up. If the force could not
be filled up with Z 6, then a calculation must be made
whether it would not be cheaper with a larger sum than the
maintenance of a large force at sea. Another point which
ho must mention related to tho Channel fleet, which the
Admiralty did not seem to know how to manage when they
got it. Some time since there was mutiny, or something
like it. On board the Liffey there was a disturbance, shot
rolled about, mess traps broken, and other disorders. In
that case the Achuireity did not take proper steps, but sim-
ply gave NVA,Y and the mon gained their point. Something
of the same sort happened on board the Caesar on a clues-

tion of leave. The complaint was, he thought, a just one.
When ships were fitting out in harbour. there was plenty of
leave, but now whenever a ship was out of harbour she was
sent to Portland, while the drills went on, a period most
irksome to the men, and when the utmost indulgence should
bo granted. In that way the disturbance arose en board
the Caesar, and the Admiralty, instead of sending the
squadron to sea, and sending the Caesar to the West Indies,
allowed the men to remain the victors. In the Mediter-
ranean, on board the flagship Marlborough, there was also
a disturbance, and that was passed over. Then came the
Princess Royal, the worst case of all. She came from the
Mediterrancen, and, according to a very proper arrange-
ment, another ship was ready to which the crew was to be
transferred ; but there were three classes of men on board
—the bounty men and the continuous service men, upon
whom the Admiralty had a claim, and those who had en-
tered generally, upon whom they had no claim. 'When
the captain loft the ship the men cried out, " Pay off," and
then the Admiralty ought to have had a member of the
Board down to inquire into the matter, but, instead of doing
so, they gave way. The continuous service men and the
bounty men should have been sent on board the Queen, and
the others should have been required to return their stores,
which would have occupied them for three weeks, and then
they should have been told that their services were not
required further. Then, when there was a ship launch, and
the Queen came down, the men ought to have had leave
from Saturday to Monday, but instead of that one-half had
leave and the rest had not. That, of course, created dissa-
tisfaction, and a cry of "All or none." The Admiral very
properly said " None," but unluckily the liberty men had
been landed and were taken back from the dockyard gates.
It was an error to order those men back, although he would
not say whose error it was. Ho must say, to the credit of
the seamen, that it was not true that they had deserted in
great numbers after taking the bounty, for he had seen a
return showing that since bounty was given desertions had
been fewer than before. Everyone knew how easy it was
for sailors to
.desert, but he did not think the Admiralty
took proper means to punish desertion. He would punish
every man, even with transportation, who took the bounty
not intending to remain in the service. There was another
evil in the service in respect to leave. 'When he was in
Lisbon harbour, he found that no leave was ever given there,
but he granted leave to the men to go on shore. The men
got drunk and made rows, and complaints were made to him,
and he got the police of Lisbon to take up every drunken
English sailor and put him into prison, the consequence of
which was, that all complaints soon ceased. If the same
thing were done for a short time, it would soon put an end
to such misconduct. It might be said this could not be done
in England, but they could station a guard ship close to
where the men landed, warn them, and if they broke their
leave or behaved ill place them on board as prisoners. There
need be no difficulty in giving men leave, and getting rid of
those irregularities which were subversive of all discipline.
The men wculd thus also be made much more comfortable
and happy than they were at present. There was
another point to which he wished to advert.
If a ship were paid off with the crew, it was
attended with great expense; but if they were trans-
ferred to another ship directly, and the ship turned over to
the superintendent of the dockyard to return her stores, the
whole might be effected with much regularity and economy.
He trusted the Admiralty would take steps to remedy all the
evils ho had pointed out; especially let them see flat
the men had leave atoll times in moderation, and that they
were punished if they behaved improperly—iusprisoned if
they got drunk on shore and behaved in a ,I:eorderly man-
ner. A great deal had lately been done for seamen in giv-
ing them their traps, allotments, arei paying them once a
month, and they might treat ast severely as they pleased
those who were guilty of breaches of discipline if they only
did them justice. In the Baltic a disturbance broke out on
board one of the ships of the fleet. lie desired an inquiry
to be made to see if there were any grievances, and, it' so,
that they should be redressed. Grievances were found to
exist : they were redressed, and the evil did not extend as
it might have done, to other ships in the fleet. He had
laboured long to have tho money put on a proper footing,
and he would never rest satisfied till it was properly manned,
and till the mengot redress of every evil they had any:reason
to complain of. They could not now be treated as they
formerly were. The men were more enlightened, and they
expected more indulgence. (Hear, from Mr. Williams.)
The hon. member for Lambeth may cry " Hear," as if lie
wanted popularity ; but he would not put an end to flogging
for all that. He would flog but he would flog in a proper
manner. (A laugh.) If a man behaved ill, he would try
him by court-martial and punish him. Ide was not afraid
to say so. The men themselves would not live in a ship if
there was no discipline. A ship wouldbo a hell upon earth
without discipline, and if the hon. member for Lambeth
succeded in abolishing corperal punishments in the navy to-
morrow ho would not get the thanks of the men. (fear.)
Sir J. ELPHINSTONE thanked the noble lord for his
clear and business-like statement, which he had heard with
peculiar pleasure. With regard to the pensions to warrant
officers' widows, he wished to know whether the arrange-
ment was to be retrospective as recommended by the naval
commission. If not, he should never suspend his agitation
till that grievance was redressed. The present allowance as
outfit for a petty officer when raised to a warrant officer was
£3O, but was quite inadequate, and these was often found
great difficulty in getting proper min to come forward for
the warrant, because pensions ee ere taken away from their
widows. With regard to boys, the commission recom-
mended that schoolehips should be established at all the
principal commercial ports. Provision was to be made for
2,400 boys, besides those who came forward voluntarily to
be afterwards absorbed into the mercantile and Royal ma-
rine. He found no vote taken for school ships, and he
wanted to know what was the intention of the Government
in that respect. lie had heard from various ports, such as
Hull, Greenock, Aberdeen; and Dundee, that these school
ships were looked for with great interest, and there was son-
siderable disappoiptment that the recommendation of the
commission hart not been carried into effect. When the
boys went net board ship, a number of them were employed
as Akira' servants. He objected to that, as being a most
prejudicial employment for boys ; under such a system they
became neither good seamen nor good servants. (Hear.)
There was another point. In the Marine Artillery ser-
geants were paid 3d. a day less than in the Royal Artil-
lery. He thought the pay should be equalized. The pay
of captains of men-of-war was also inadequate : they could
not maintain their position without trenching on their pri-
vate means. The number of midshipmen in the service was
utterly insufficient, and in many of the vessels in which
young men entering the service were expected to qualify
themselves for passing a high competitive examination there
were no naval instructors. The establishment of the naval
reserve had not been attended with the success that could
have been wished. Various causes had contributed to this
result. The bounty had operated greatly against the re-
serve, as had also the disturbance in the Princess Royal.
Again, the Admiralty had not taken the proper steps for
making the advantages of service in the reserve sufficiently
known. They should take a leaf out of the Horse Guards
book, and employ active petty officers at the different ports,
in the same way as recruiting sergeants were now employed
on behalf of the army. In a town like Portsmouth it might
be expected that a regular office for the enlistment of sea-
men would be open ; yet hon. gentlemen would be sur-
prised to hear that the only place where anything of the
kind was conducted was the house of Mrs. Eliza Wainer, a
woman who understood where sailors were to be found and
what they looked fur. (A laugh.) l'roper docks and ac-
commodation ought to be provided for our skips. His be-
lief was that if the Princess Royal had had a basin to go
into the disturbance on board that vessel would never have
occurred.
Mm-. WHITBREAD said that, however carefully the
Admiralty might prepare its progranune, it was necessary to
bear in mind that it was liable to derangement from many
disturbing causes. It was impossible to fix upon a stan-
dard for our force, and say that that was the proper amount
of naval strength for this country to keep up. That force
must always depend upon what was done by other coun-
tries; and it was only by watching the growth of foreign
navies—whether in line-of-battle ships, frigates, or iron
ships—that we could arrive at any just estimate of our own
requirements. With regard to the duties of the Comptrol-
ler of the Navy, changes wore now in progress in his office,
and when those changes were completed there would be no
hesitation in furnishing the information which the right
hon. baronet desired. The dockyards would be kept in a
proper state of repair with the sum taken in the present
estimates, although large works, which would certainly
have to be undertaken some time or other, had been post-
poned in the different yards. The right hon. baronet
would bo glad to learn that the Government had faced the
somewhat difficult question connected with Chatham.
It was in contemplation to extend that yard, and
the Board, having considered the deficiency of accom-
modation in the eastern arsenal and the dockyard, had come
to the conclusion—looking to the natural disadvantages of
Sheerness, and to the objections, in a military point of
view, to the Isle of Grays—that St. Mary's Island was the
only direction in which the dockyard accommodation should
be enlarged. A great deal of the unhappy feeling excited in
the case of the Princess Royal had arisen from the fact that
the officers were in the habit of obtaining leave when the
ship was paid oft; while the men were restricted. The offi-
cers had now been placed on the same footing as the men in
this respect, and not a murmur had been heard in the case
of any of the ships that had since been paid off. lie con-
curred fully in the opinions of the hon. baronet (Sir J. D.
Blphinstone) as to the value of a reserve force, and he hoped
that by carefully studying the feelings and the interests of
the men mxch would in time be done to make the service
popular and respected. (Hear.)
Sir J. PAKINGTON, in explanation, said he did not in-
tend to suggest that there should be or could be anything
like a permanent standard of line-of-battle ships. But he
thought there was a point at which, our navy having at-
tained to a position of sufficient superiority, it would he
well to pause in regard to laying down new line-of-battle
ships until the Admiralty had ascertained the effect of the
great changes effected lately in naval science. (Hoar.)
Mr. W. WILLIAMS moved that the Chairman report
progress. (" Oh 1")
Lord PALMERSTON hoped that his hon. friend would
not press his motion, the universal wish of the committee
apparently being that some votes should be taken. (Hear.)
Mr. WILLIAMS would withdraw his motion on the un-
derstanding that no more speeches were to be made. (A
laugh.). _

Admiral WALCOTT thanked the noble lord (C. Paget)
for his perspicuous statement and the honesty of purpose
by which it was characterised, and said he derived ad-
ditional satisfaction in recognising in the gallant officer
one of his professional brethren and an ornament to the
service. (Hear.) He (Admiral Walcott) fully admitted
the prudence of the measure taken to maintain our navy
in perfect strength and efficiency. Vigour disarmed hos-
tility and deterred a would-be opponent from breaking
the peace, whereas a timid policy only encouraged aggres-
sion. (Hear.) Last year he recommended the noble lord
to give the Surveyor of the Navy a higher position in the
service by making him an honorary member of the Board.
This change would entail no additional expense on the
country, and would enable the surveyor to give his opinions
with much greater freedom and effect than at present. He
also suggested that there were occasions when it would be
to the benefit of the service that a Board should be consti-
tuted, consisting of the most eminent men in every branch
of naval architecture, to meet from time to time and review
the suggestions made for the improvement of ship-building
by those who made it their study. With regard to the
personnel of the navy, it was only right that the officers,
should be assured of certain rewards for the exhibition of
seal and the perfect acquirement of professional knowledge,
while every promise made to the men should be rigidly
adhered to. He hoped he was to understand that the 2,000
boys mentioned by the noble lord were to be brought into
the service annually (" Hear," from Lord C. Paget) ; but
two ships were not sufficient for them. No more than 500
boys ought to be on board the same vessel. Had his
suggestions upon the service of boys been followed some
years ago, the present want of sailors would not have been
experienced. As to the relative strength of the Russian
and Punch navies, to which allusion had been made, it
was of the highest importance, looking to the enormous
extent of the commerce, the remoteness of many of our
most valuable dependencies, the uncertainty of our political
relations, and the uncertainty also of peace, that our own
navy should be kept in the m)st efficient state, for our
naval supremacy was a matter of life and death to this
country. With regard to the disturbances on board the
Princess Royal, he defended the conduct of Admiral
Bowles, than whom there was not in the profession a man