The Sun.
London, England, 1860-04-17 00:00:00

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tion, while such eminent manufacturers as Messrs. Craw-
shaw, Abbott and Sons, or Wool and Co. would be willing
to supply similar articles at 945. 6d. (Hear.) For many
years he had been convinced that the dockyards were cist-
ing the country more than they ought to do, and that with
proper management £9,000,000, or, at any rate, £10,000,000
would go as far as the £13,000,000 which they were about
to vote. A moo searching inquiry ought to take place into
its enormous expenditure.

Sir M. SEYMOUR, alluding to the caso of the gallant
officers which had been brought before the house by the
member for Portsmouth, said they had been induced to re-
move from the ac!ive list, in the hope that as time passed

their position would not materially differ from that of the
officers remaixing on the active list, and they felt them-
selves aggrieved because they had not shared in the awards
which the other classes had received. The subject had
been frequently brought under the notice of the Admiralty,
and he trusted the noble lord would be able to deal satis-
factorily with their claim. A subject equally deserving
attention was the case of the widows of warrant offi-
cers, which had been touched on by the gallant officer
the member for Southwark. A certain degree 0. con-
sideration had been extended by the Admiralty and the
Chancellor of the Exchequer to this class, an arrangement
having been made by which from Jan., 1860, these widows
were to receive their pensions. But it was in evidence that
from the year 1830 till now a number of these widows with
their children had been compelled to seek relief from the dif-
ferent unions, and he hoped some measure of relief would
also be extended to them. The nary estimates were rightly
held to be enormously large, but he did not believe the coup•

try would refuse the amount requisite to do justice to the
widows of deserving officers. Several instances had come
under his own observation, when serving in a distant part
of the world, in which warrant officers had lost their lives
by climate and exertion. The carpenter of his flagship, after
performing his duties with great abilitydnd assiduity, and
with much care and economy in the handling of stores, died
on his passage home a few months prior to the poriod from
which this order would take effect, and had left a widow and
several children in great distress. He agreed up to a certain
point with what the gallant member for Southwark had said
in reference to the Channel fleet; he believed their rules were
not so good as they might be, and that in certain ships the
conduct of the men had not been so steady and satisfactory
as all well-wishers of the navy must desire. But it must be
borne in mind that both officers and men on board those
ships had been placed in a position of great temptation. In
any previous period of our naval history ships with their
full war complement had never been kept in the home ports
during the entire winter season. In future a different ar-
rangement would probably be made, and by the distribu-
tion of vessels in different quarters of the globe, and the judi-
cious quartering of the coastguard, they might be able to

avoid additional expense to the country, at the same time
that greater efficiency to the service would be secured.
lie thought with the hon. member for Sunderland that the

national dockyards were not managed with all the economy
possible; but many of the differences between the cost of
the same class of ships which the hon. member had been
unable to reconcile were entirely owing to the various

modes of keeping the accounts in different yards. He ad-
mitted that the expenditure of the naval dockyards was ex-
ceedingly heavy ; but the work done in them was of the very
best kind. (Hear, hear.) As to the important question of
manning the navy, he was glad to hear that the Govern-
ment intended to carry into effect the recommendations of
the manning commission. He fully approved the proposal
to keep 1,000 seamen gunners in the home ports as a re-
serve force, and the plan of a standing reserve of seamen.
The marines, too—a body of whom it was impossible to
speak too highly—might well be increased by 5,000 or 6,000
men. The difficulty of manning the navy had always been
great ; the Admiralty had never been able to get a fleet to-
gether without considerable difficulty in manning it. A
system of general impressment could never be resorted to
again; it would not be desirable or justifiable, except, per-
haps, to the extent of an impressment afloat. With an
enemy at sea, and a sudden necessity for men, he did net
suppose an Admiral lying with an unmanned fleet at St.
Helen's could allow a merchant ship to come up Channel
without taking some of her sailors for the public service.
The number of seamen in the mercantile marine had greatly
increased ; but their money value to the naval service had
not yet been quite ascertained. Tho commercial marine of
the United States was very large ; but there was this curi-
ous fact connected with it :—of 150,000 men sailing from

American ports only 9,000, or about 1 in 12, were Ameri-
cans born. Of the crew of the Ohio, a ship of the line, con-
sisting of 1,000 men, only 182 were native Americans. The
rate of pay was a most important question, which the Ad-
miralty would be compelled to take into serious considera-
tion; and the pay of all ranks would have to be considered;
for at present no class appeared to be satisfied. The gallant
Admiral then proceeded to comment upon the great diffi-
culty which had been experienced on former occasions, as
well as at present, in manning the navy, and to paint out
how necessary it was to keep the internal defences of the
country in a state of efficiency, observing that in 1803 the
total military force of the country—when neither her
population nor her wealth reached half its present
amount—was, including the volunteers, 61;000 men. It
was, he added, quite evident that the patriotism of the
English people had since that period undergone no diminu-
tion, and that it rested with the Government to give the
national feeling duo effect. (Hear, hear.)

Sir J. PAKINGTON said he wished before the Speaker
left the chair to allude to the position of the officers on the
captains' reserved list, and to express his belief that the
claims which they put forward, and to which reference had
been made by the hon. member for Portsmouth, were not
without foundation. llad he been aware that the subject
would have been entered into that evening, he should hav e
had the order in council which bore upon it at hand, in order
to substantiate the view which he entertained ; for, although
that document was somewhat loosely worded, he could not
help thinking the construction which was put upon it by the
officers to whom he referred in their memorial was more
reasonable than the interpretation of the Board of Admiralty
He, under those circumstances, trusted that the Board would
be able to take a generous view of the matter, and he might
add that they would be enabled to do so with the less diffi-
culty because of the fact that the list of officers in question
must be regarded as an expiring list, and that tho number
of names on it was very limited. This was one of those
numerous lists which were the result of a succession of con-
trivances which had been resorted to for a long period as a
substitute—and a miserably bad substitute they were—for
a good system of retirement and promotion. He did hope
that before this session closed the noble lord opposite would
be enabled to announce that the Admiralty had adopted a
system of retirement that would be satisfaetery to the pro-
fession. Wheneverwhich
necessity
thatas hdee desirable
da
creatingb lseedn d
werew from a s
meattainedretime
to
otheretim
substitutese
miserable substitutes, for what was due to the
be
the Admiralty were bound to provide—
namely, Navy,tf
henacedmssi veeodl nyl andt
al enowismht asowell-regulated e
system of promotion and retire-
ment. When his noble friend brought forward the Navy
Estimates he did intimate that the Admiralty were medi-
tating a system of retirement which they intended to
announce ; such was the general understanding ; he
hoped his noble friend would not now object to state
that the Admiralty still entertained that intention, and that
before the estimates were concluded he would be able to
inform Parliament what was the nature of the scheme they
proposed to adopt. He had no desire to detain the house
longeron this question, but he sincerely hoped the Admi-
ralty would take a liberal and generous -view of the claim
which these gallant officers had made.

Sir F. BARING was sorry he had not been present when
the case of these officers was brought forward by his gallant
colleague. Indeed he only knew of it from expressions which
had dropped from the right hon. baronet who had just sat
down. It had been his fate to draw up the order on which
their claim was founded, and he could speak as to what the
intention was. He should have no objection, on the con-
trary he should be glad to hear that the Admiralty really
took a favourable view of these claims ; but, or. the other
hand, he was bound to say, what he had stated to the claim-
ants themselves, that the order never was intended to bear
the construction they put upon it. In neither the letter,
which stated the intention of the Admiralty, nor in the Or-
der in Council which carried that intention into effect, was
e
there anything to sustain that construction. The letter
was
ee
not loose, butth perfectly clear, and drew a plain distinc-
tiontwo classes. What it did was this—lt
placed on the redundant permanent half-pay list officers who
had not served for 20 years, or who were incapable, promis-
ing them they should rise and enjoy all the advantages they
had on the active list, but to those who were promoted it
made no such promise—it gave them promotion and nothing ,
else. It never was the intention to give them more. It did
not even in:words do so. He quite admitted the gallant ser-
vices of these officers, many of whom he had himself placed
on the list, and he should be glad if the Admiralty, on a fair
consideration of the case, could take any view that might be
favourable to them ; but he must say, as a witness, having
himself drawn up the order and the letter of the Admiralty
on which the vote in Parliament was given, that it was not
the intention of the Admiralty to give these officers what
they now asked.
Mr. HENLEY thought the great amount of the Navy
Estimates this year warranted every member in making
almost any observations on them which came strongly be-
fore his mind. The hon. member for Sunderland had al-
luded to the report on dockyard expenditure, its voluminous
nature, and the various subjects with which it dealt. The
gallant admiral the member for Southwark also alluded to
the deficiency in the supply of timber in the dockyards.
• That deficiency was commented on by the commissioners in
very strong language. It was almost impossible to speak
more decidedly than they did on this subject. The report
of that commission, as had been stated, was naturally
14911134 lOWA t 9 tl;9 Tarim effaces of the dockyards and

It was sustained by no less than 22

Lom spoke in the most paritive and ge-
ialifying their statements by- reference to
The report was very strong--
iber, thick stuff plank, and deals is not
to ordinary demands of the service and
properly seasoned before being con,

They go on to say—
"ln all the yards the commissioners have found a uni-
form want of large timber and deck deals." •

To six superintendents and many of the officers under them

this grave matter was referred. All the disputes which had
taken place between the various parties who made this report

and counter report—this blast and counter blast, had been
as to labour. They all agreed that the labour was costly

and that it was well done. There was a difference as to

whether it cost more than it ought to do. No one could for
a moment doubt that just in proportion as the labour was
costly they ought to be careful that the material on which
it was expended was good and properly seasoned. A great

deal was said by Government of work that was done cheaply

b4rig " scamped." They all knew that cheap work was-apt
to be vamped; but Scamping in material was much worse
than in Nbour, Stamping in labour was more easily seen_
and more easily r6znedied if discovered ; but stamping in
the timbar used in shipbuilding was most destructive. That
made the ship rotten ; it must then be opened, and it was
vFlydiiiicult to say what the cost of that might be. What

did the minute of the First Lord of the Admiralty say an
this subject ?

" They (the committee) ohserve the shipwright offiters
devote their attention too much to the quality and rapidity
of the work, and too little to the cost."—(Par. 935.) "In
thi., remark the committee seam to have overlooked the es-

sential difference between skips of war and meroTantships.
Wherever the services of a ship of war are required it is in-
dispensable that the ship should be in all respects efficient.
The question of cost, however important, is insignificant
compared with the efficiency, because the value of the ship's
services cannot be estimated by a price in money. The de-
tention of the ship for some necessary repairs may be a na-
tional calamity; its inferiority as a ship_ of war may be at-
tended with national dishonour."
(Hear, hear.) This was a great truth, and theydid not often.
meet with one expressed in better language. But did, not,
this apply equally to the timber of which a ship was made:
as to the labour expended on her ? Whatwas the use of ap-
plying such good labour to improper materials ? Ono of the
five gentlemen who had to make this report dissented from
his colleagues. What did he say as to timber ? Mr. gat--
field, master shipwright, says, at p. 118 ' -
"It is a fact not generally known, perhaps, but which,
ought not to be overlooked, that the value of timber alone
in building a ship is equal to the value of all the other
stores and the labour added together."
In this grave matter of the deficiency of timber, on which
• • '

the evidence was uncontradicted, not one of the six superin.-
tendents took notice whether the report was true or frlZ

Was it wrong to call that a grave charge ? The First Lord
of the Admiralty himself, alluding to the allegation of the,
committee, that the store of timber was insufficient to meet
the ordinary demands of the service, said, and said very na-
turally, that, if that statement was correct, it conveyed "a
grave censure upon the Board of Admiralty." Curious:y
enough, the Controller of the Navy did not condescend to
notice that charge at all, although he made comments on.
the finding of the committee on two other points. Mr.
Chatfield also wholly passed by it. When, therefore, men.
holding high official positions, while treating the report as
highly condemnatory of the system, remained silent upon a
charge which they admitted to be grave, one was almost
compelled to assume that they assented to its truth. What
was the evidence on which the charge rested ? The matter
was not only serious in itself, but doubly serious because
the Board of Admiralty hal come to a decision upon it that
was not founded on any evidence before the house. They
might have good grounds for their conclusion, but they had
not set them forth. The three master-shipwrights at
Portsmouth, Devonport, and Chatham—gentlemen who
must be supposed competent to give an opinion on this
subject—had borne testimony to the same effect. Mr. Lang,
master-shipwright, stated that the large English timber
had always been deficient, and that there ought to be three
years' stock. At Portsmouth there ought to be a larger'
store than at present ; it should be equal to four years'
consumption. Mr. Eadie, master-shipwright, said the stock
ought to be doubled. Mr. Moore, foreman at Devonport,
said that, as a rule, the large timber was not seasoned. Mr.
Peake stated that they were very short of large timber at
Devonport; that they were using this year's supply. The
timber-inspector at Sheerness said they were so short that
they were actually using green timber. Mr. Rice, master-
shipwright at Woolwich, said they had not sufficient store ;
that some pieces were used as they came in. It was unne-•
cessary to trouble the house with the opinions of the other
gentlemen, but there was the concurring testimony of 18
witnesses, all in Government employ, to the purportalready
described. It was, however, only fair to notice the evidence
of the four gentlemen, also in the service of the Government,
who made qualified statements on the same point, Mr.
Brown, who had acted as foreman at Portsmouth, stated.
that ho did not know bow the store stood at present, but his
impression was that the timber lately converted was dry and
Reasoned, except the sternposts of the large ships. That w.sts

. _
not a very unimportant exception. (A laugh.) Next, 3.lr's
Laslett, timber •inspector, said, in his judgment, the timber
,night to bo two years in store, except " the large and com-
pass timber." The storekeeper at Woolwich said they were
pretty well off except in " sternposts and runposts." Mr.
Watts, first assistant to the Surveyor-General, gave rather
odd evidence. He thought they had between two and three
years' average consumption in stock. The master-ship-
wright said it ought to be four years' ; so that Mr. Watts's
testimony was not very strong. But Mr. Watts went fur-
ther, and added, " We want 60,000 loads this year ;" and he
expected to get only 30,000. That evidence was given in
1859. Now, the Storekeeper-General said that in 1859 the
consumption would be 55,000 loads. The witnesses who
made the qualified statements to which he had just referred.
did not therefore in any degree shake the immense mass of
testimony on the other side. He now came to the mode in
which the Admiralty had met this question. The First
Lord had drawn up a memorandum on the subject, which
was afterwards confirmed by the Board. The Board took
no notice of the matter, except by passing—as was probably
the ordinary course—a short minute agreeing to what the
First Lord said. The First Lord, in his memorandum, ob-
served that the finding of the committee as to the insuffi-
ciency of the stores, if correct, implied a grave censure on.
the Board of Admiralty ; but he added that the committee
did not explain "what they considered to bo the ordinary
demands of the service." The First Lord continued—and
this was a passage deserving the special attention of the
house—
" The Storekeeper-General has given a satisfactory
answer to the statement." That was the only thing on
which the First Lord founded himself. He showed that
although the expenditure of timber during the last two
years had been unprecedented, yet the stores had been in
excess of the establishment; and he went on to say it was
to be hoped that such a high rate of timber expenditure
would not be necessary in future years, jid therefore it was
not expedient to increase the permanent establishment of
shipbuilding timber. Strangely enough, the First Lord of
the Admiralty, following, it was to be supposed, in the
wake of the Storekeeper-General, made no allusion what-.
ever to the question of the timber being seasoned ; and,
from the way in which the Storekeeper-General treated the
matter, he did not seem to regard it at all the business of
his department to express any opinion as to the seasoning
or not seasoning of the timber. He merely answered alt
the claims made upon him, and if a man asked him for as
stick of timber he gave him one, whether it was fit to use'
or not. That was a proceeding about as sensible as to give se
pair of shoes to a man who wanted a pair without any re--
gard to the size of his foot. (A laugh.) It was to be doubted.
whether anybody, looking curiously at the report of the
Storekeeper-General, would agree with his Grace the First
Lord that it was satisfactory because that report appeared.
entirely to confirm the statement of the committee. The
Storekeeper-General commenced his paragraph in answer
to the committee by setting out a long array of figures
showing what had been the supply of timber in various,
years, and giving the actual consumption from 1830 down
to 1858 inclusive. He then went on to say, " I need scarcely
observe that the expenditure of shipbuilding timber since•
the year 1853, and still less within the last 12 months, can-
not reasonably be regarded as meeting only the ordinary
demands of the public service." He did not notice that part
of the report which referred to the timber being seasoned
and fit for consumption, but went on to say that the present
consumption of shipbuilding timber of large scantling was
unprecedented, that the consumption of timber during
the years 1857 and 1858 was double that of the years
1837 and 1838, while the receipt of shipbuilding timber in
those years was morn than five times what it was in 1537
and 1838, and that the stock of timber on the 30th Juno
last was in excess of the establishment by 6,500 loads. What
did all this come to ? Up to the beginning of the year 1858
what was called the establishment of timber was 53,000
loads ; in that year it was raised to 60,000 loads. Had
not the Storekeeper-General afterwards given the figures
he should have thought that the reference to the years 1837
and 1838 was intended to mystify, and throw dust in the
eyes of the house, because of all the evils which followed
the Reform Bill there was none which was greater, and
none which more conduced to the removal of the Reformers
from office than their shameful neglect of the navy. (Hear,
hear.) He believed it was now admitted on all hands that
these two years, 1837 and 1838, formed the crowning period
of the deficiency of timber, and that during those years the
store was so fabulously low that it was hardly possible to
conceive how any one could have had—he was going to say
the impudence—but, at all events, the face so to have dimi-
nished the stock of materials for the Queen's navy. (Hear,
hear.) He did not know whether the returns which had
been supplied to the house were worth the paper upon which
they were printed, because in the answers as well as in the
evidence things peeped out which raised a doubt whether
those accounts were very correct. For his own purpose,
however, he was entitled to use them as figures supplied by
the Government, and to treat them as correct. As he
understood the minute of the First Lard, a store of 60,000
loads of timber was sufficient for the future. He had al-
ready shown by the evidence taken before the committee,
and he would endeavour to show by other figures, which
would not easily be disputed, that whether they looked to
the number of men in the navy, to the number of vessels, to
their quality, or to the greater wear and tear in screw
vessels, as compared with sailing ships, such as stare, was
NolitilAcd 91 PaiSe.l