The Sun.
London, England, 1856-04-12 00:00:00

directed especially to inquire into the commissariat and - maintain his own views, and set forth his reasons and aegis.
the supplies of the British army in the Crimea, and they tics, without mains, accusations against me, because I am
having reported that the deaths, including those at Scu-
! guilty of wishing the state to assist in the great work of edn-
tari and elsewhere, appear to amount to 35 per cent. of ;
one Cation ? To show this gentleman's inconsistency, he says in
one passage that I have concocted at Vienna and Berlin this
the average strength of the army present in the Crimea.
from the let day of Feb-, 1854, to the 30th new-fangled scheme of despotism ; and then he says that I
of April, ought, in 1831, to have revealed my whole plan, which I have
1855, and they having reported that it seems te be clearly kept enuniagly concealed from that to the present time, and
-established that this excessive mortality is not to be at- that I ought to have produced in 1839 that scheme which in
tributed to anything peculiarly unfavourable to the cli- another page he says I did not concoct till 1855. (Hear.) He
male,but to overwork, exposure to wet and cold, impro- brings forward other charges which are without the least
per food, and insufficient shelter from inclement weather, . foundation. When last year I came from Germany—where I
'it will be the duty of the court now sitting under Sir A. had certainly very little time to devote to the subject of edu-
Woodford to examine into these specified charges. cation either at Berlin or Vienna—(a laugh)—l begged the
Mr. F. PEEL did not conceive it was the province of right hon. baronet opposite (Sir J. Pakington) not to form his
the commission to inquire into the causes of the salami- scheme upon any continental model; for I never thought
any of the continental models would be a safe guide for
ties which befel the army, except in so far as they might us. (Hear.) On the other hand, in the year 1839, although
be involved in charges against certain officers, which ewes in favour of a plan of grants by a committee of Privy
•
charges were being investigated by the commission, and Council, I did not propose a complete scheme,. lent I always
for which purpose the commission was specially ap- reserved till a future time the task of completing what was
pointed. then only partially begun. Let me observe, however, that in
• . BOYS IN THE NA VY. 1839, I wrote a letter to the Marquis of Lansdowne to which
Col. HARCOURT called attention to the non-
admis_ the noble marquis referred in his speech in that year. I plo-
sion of boys from the union houses into the navy. posed that a Committee of Privy Council should be formed to
Sir,C. WOOD raid that on a former occasion he gave consider elle:tatters relating to education, and to distribute the
a straightforward answer to the question of the hoe. and grants which might be made by Parliament from time to
time. Lord Lansdowne, as he truly said in that speech, ob-
'gallant gentleman, which was the tno general order had jetted to the former part of this sentence, and he requested
been issued by the Admiralty against admitting boys that a committee of council should be appainted for the pur-
from workhouses into the navy. He inquired if such pose of distributing the grants. What lam now roosing
order existed, and he was told no, and that no such is in effect to restore that part of the duties of the copmmpittee,
order had existed or did exist, and that was the answer and toendeavour to frame same plan accordingly, by which
he gave the hon. and gallant general on a former occa. the Government and the Parliament might act, in order te
sion, obtain what I consider a very great end. And now, sir, I
THE LIVERPOOL CUSTOM-HOUSE CLERKS. come to the resolutions which I have had the honour to
.pro-
Mr.pose. My right hon. friend (Sir J. Graham) and, I think,
HORSFALL called the attention of the house. to right hon. gentleman the member for Oxfordshire (Mr.
the
a statement of the Secretary of the Treasury respecting Henley) objected to the first on the ground that it was pro. . . the Custom-heuse establishment at Liverpool. The hoe. posing to do what the Government might at any time do, and
member said that previous to the recess he put a question that therefore if we agreed to it we shouldbe taking what was
to the then Secretary of the Treasury respecting the properly the business of the Government intoour own hands.
salaries of the clerks of the Long-room at Liverpool and - Now, sir, in the first place Ido not think that it has ever been
the answer he then received was unsatisfactory.
the The laid down in this house, and lam sure it would be entirely
hon. gentleman complained of the manner in which
inconsistent with the practice of this house to say, that that
Secretary to the Treasury had treated a memorial that which may be done by the Government may not become the
was forwarded
to him by himself and colleague, relative subject of advice from this house. My right hon. friend
would lay down an entirely new maxim—a maxim which,
to the salaries of the lower grade of clerks in the long if he appeals to me, I must pronounce a most unconstitu-
room of the Liverpool Cuitom-house, the receipt of Costal one—if he held with respect to any advice or any pro-
which was not answered by the hon. gentleman. He position relating to the conduct of the Government that it was
also complained that subsequent applications were made a sufficient bar to any such proposal to say that the Govern-
to the Treasury, and an answerreturned that the subject ment could itself do what was suggested, and that therefored
had been inquired into, and that the salaries of the clerks silence was only required. But in the next place, with regard
had all been raised ; and he denied that the Treasury to this particular proposition, it appeared to me that it wasf
going so far beyond the usual functions of the Committee of
any done more for Liverpool than they had done for
rivy Council on Education that either the Government must
any other port in the kingdom, and said that it was bring forward a special proposal before the estimates on this
Liverpool which had done more for the Treasury than subject, or else that some member of Parliament should have
any other port in the kingdom. It was of great im- a proposition which he would undertake to state to the house.
portance that the clerks in the Liverpool Custom-house The sum and substance of the plan which I have proposed is
should be properly and fairly remunerated, and the men, this: from 1829 to the present time, the proposition which I
chants and manufacturers of that place, and also those made to Lord Lansdowne having been accepted in the form to
of the manufacturing districts of Lancashire generally, which I have adverted, the state of things has been as follows :
considered the clerks were entitled to the further torsi-
Wherever parties iu any place have wished to build a school
and have applied to the Committee of Council to assist them
deration of the Treasury. By returns he intended to
the committee had questions.,
great of all asked them various uestions:
ask for that evening, he should be able to show that
great injustice was done to the clerks with regard to
They asked them whether they had procured a permancut
their pay and merit by promotion,
defended the conduct of the Treasur had
endowment, whether a committee of management een
Mr. WILSON been
formed, and other questions which were thought necessary for
-y the public interests to be put. Those questions having been
from the want of inattention brought against it by the satisfactorily answered, a grant was awarded in proportiouto
hon. member, and said it was the usual practice to re- the subscriptions and endowments that were provided. The
ceive applications from clerks in the Customehouse with school having been once built, and scholars having begun to
regard to salary or promotion, through their superiors, attend; the Committee of Privy Council sent down inspectors,
and hoped the house would not interfere with that salu- and in accordance with the subsequent minutes of 1846, they
- tary regulation. At all events that they would not have awarded to pupil teachers, apprentices, and cer;aiu
sanction the interference in such cases, by members of schoolmasters, various wages and allowances. But there they
port of
. , er n and others interestedinthe
Parliament and m oha ts
been built in the parish of A, but they do not inquire whether
port of Liverpool,. During the past three years, there
had been great changes made in all grades in the Car- in the adioining-parishes of B, C, and D, there isany school.
They
Committee of Council coufine themselves to the applications
Government had lately sent down there to inspire into which are made to them. Now what I propose is, that that
the coenplaints alleged, had produced a favourable re- plan shall be extended,and that by means of additional officers
pOrt, in which it was stated that the officers themselves to be called sub-inspectors, the committee of council, and fin-
were satisfied with the working of the system. ally Parliament itself, may obtain information as to the state
DESECRA.TION OF THE SABBATH. of education in any place and parish in the Uzited,Kingdone.
(Hear.) The house will see that that is a great object. The
Mr. NAPIER. presented a petition from Portsmouth,
. grant of the Privy Council, by which 540,000 children are re-
stating that the petitioners were fearful that there would ceiving daily instruction, has been a most useful and national
be a repetition of the order on Saturday next that was work ; but it would be a very great extension, it woulain fact
. ivied on Saturday last, viz', on the following day, Sun- enlarge the whole object of the Committee of PrivY Coencil,
. • dayeehe men at the dockyard were to attend to work, if. hey were not only to make grants to-those places in which
and the consequence was, that upwards of a thousand there arc schools, but would inquire int* the deficiencies of
. men were so employed, -contiery to their consciences, in 'other places. (Hear.) Well, it appeared to me, sir, that if
the preparation of gun-beats for the approaching naval I did thus much; if I only proposed that thus much should be
review. (Sear,)- That could not be called a necessity, done by those sub-inspectors, I might he ask ad,'e Whats
and such -- conduct tended to Subject the house to the the meaning of this expensive machinery—of . thishost of
-0
" Pal` arge o 4lt would be, as the right honourable baronet
f hypocrisy in conniving at such proceeding for officers ?
says, a mere scheme for the sake of patronage, if
the enjoyment of the rich, whilst they refused the Mu• when you had ascertained the defect you did not proceed
Semen National Gallery,-and such like institutions to be further and apply a remedy, I therefore considered vaii-
, opened on Sunday for the working classes. - ous means by which the evil might bo remedied. In the
. - - BUSINESS OF' THE HOUSE. first place, what wilL naturally- occur to us is this, namely
Sir Si. J. PAKINGTON;' before 'the Speaker put, the that the sub-inspectors going to all the parishes in the king-
'
Motion foe the adjournment of the house, appealed to the
anddom and having each a division which he could easily visit,
noble 'which he coild in the course of the year superintend,'
lead at the head of the Government tusay whether,
they would recommend to persons having property in - no.
he considered it-to the advantage or disadvantage of the &awe PaSishes, or who were likely to be zealous in this be-
business of the house that theepresentpraetice of allowing half. that thershotild build school houses where they were
. desultory debates on the motion for the adjournment of wanting; as had already been done in 4,000 or 5,000 places;
, the house should continue. They-had had eight sul,jects or, that they should improve the shoots where improvement
debated in that way and much time occupied, and he was needed.-- Now, sir, as far as that goes; Ido not sea how
thought the Government ought to interfere and step it, the plan can be accused of having anything of a despotic cha-
and confine those members to' the old practice of asking ratter about it; and that would be the plan which would
, questions without making speechee. (Hear.) generally be Carried into effect, as it has been done mst exten-
Lord P.A.LMERSTOIT said that he was in that unfor• siiely since 1839. But there might be places, and there wolf('
tunatn pee-Alen that he could not do anything without
be places, in which the subscriptions could. not be obtained;
and in those cases there would be a power in the ratepayer
the assistance of the house. He entirely concurred with
to levy a rate forthe purpose of esteblishiug school*: ;Theta
'the right hon. baronet that the abolition of the present might be places iu which there would be no such 'wish for
practice was very desirable. (Hear.) education ; places in whic'ehilden might still not be sent
The motion for the adjeurninent of the house to Mon- -to school, and in which the h
peopler might remain in total igne-
day was agreed to. ranee. I propose that there should be a certain authority-
- ED UCATION. —A.D JOLT ItN ED DEBATE.. lam not now discussing the details of the resolntieue —to
The house havieg resolved itself into committee on the re. compel a rate to be mad in places like that. I look further,
solutions regard'ng education,
te see if there are any means which might be used for
_ _
- the purpose of promoting education, and I find that there are
Lord J. RUSSELL rose and said--I read the other day in large sems, semen( which were expressly left by pious feun-
the newspapers an account of the examination of a witness be- dere for education,' the whole amounting to several thot sand
pounds, I find that there arealso other charities, which have
fore the Crimean Board of Inquiry, now carrying on, in which
Lord Licari having asked the question whether he would not been frequently referred to as being useless or even injurious,
and I propose that these should be applied to education.
be surprised at his statement, the witness replied, " I am not
What would be the state of the cse ? Wen these various
surprised at anything." The na adnarari state of mind is means were used, you would hae-ea a great inchrease of schools.
exceedingly philosophical, and I will endeavour to attain to There can be no doubt whatever that in a vast number of
c
it ; bnt I own that I was much surprised at the speech of my cases they would be supported, as at present, by grants front
right hon, friend the member for Carlisle, That Mr. Baines the Committee of Privy Council, by subscriptions, and I yschoolpew,. There would be a great number of places
should support the I oluntary principle is not surprising, but where new schools of that description—church schools,
that my right hon. friend, after having sat on the Education British schools, Wesleyan schools, and others—would be
Committee of the Privy Council, should come here to proclaim founded; and the present system would thus be vastly
There ex-
the voluntary. principle . to. obtain the cheers and applause tended. But still that system would, no doubt, be incomplete.
, .
would probably be some 15,050 or-16,000 ecireols of
of those who ate supporters of the voluntary that character; there would be a much smaller number sup-
principle does,. I confess, surprise rue. Now lot us con- ported be a rate, and there would like ;vise be some places in
sider a little what this voluntary principle is In the which the rate would be imposed by authority. Well, then,
first place, it is a principle which has never been adopted. sir, I must say Ido not see the casdeur of those who repre-
by 11;10 `nation. There was no republic, before republics were sent this plan as being a Government monopoly, or as being
destroyed—of Holland, of Genoa, and of Veeice—which had a despotic system ; nor do I see the justice of those phraseS
not some kind of establishment for' the purpose of inculcating which Mr. Baines, who is a somewhat hot-headed adherent to
religion and merality. In all the • countries of Europe there the voluntary system, has made ute of with respect to it, and
are some-establishments for this purpose. We differ from the which my right hon. friend, hitherto the supporter of State
United States of America in that we have aechurch establish: assistance, has repeated after him. Having thus sketched the
ment,antl no school establishment.- On the other band, in general plan I propose, I next come to the various matters I
Amsrica they had a school establishment, but they had not. a have stated in the resolutions. -I 'state in the , first, which is
church establishment, (Hear.) One thing, however, Ido now before the committee, " that in the opinion of this house
maintain, viz., that it is tire duty of a government, it is a it is expedient to extend,
revise, and consolidate the minutes
part.ofits functions, to endeavour to teach somewhat of our of the Committee of Privy Council on Education." The right
dateretolGot and man to the young o• to the adult,. (Cheera) lion. gentleman (Mr. Henley) objects to that resolution
The voluntary-principle has (lone great-things. It has built 'because the mode in which the extension is to be carried out
churches and chapels ;• it has communicated religious-know- is stated in the fallowing resolutions. That is undoubtedly
ledge
~i,o Millions, , But, be it observed, that while the the case. The righthon. bad. (Sir J. Pakington), for whose
voluntary principle, is perfectly consistent 'with the principle assistance lam very grateful, says that it is not necessary to
of an .establishment—while the principle., of an .establish- specify the number of the agents to be employed, or to state
ment en ,y exists ands while ,the voluntary principle may all that England and' Wales should be divided into 80 divisions,
the time belie great force, as ,we have seen of late years in Well; sir, I felt that if I did not specify the number of sub-
this...i . ,
eountry—e is„not poesibleron the other hand, to wain- inspectors it would•have been said, What is your plan ? Are
tale theivolatitary pr;nciple; te make that' the pririciPle of you going to have 20 or 200 of these sub-inspectors ? I
your state, And.at the-sante time to maintain the principle formed my calculation as to the number of Oub-inspectOrs on
of an establishment. —The principle of ateeetahlishment does two date. One was the divisions of the counties in England
not exelude voluntary effort ; but if you proclaim the votive- and Wales, one of which seemed to be sufficient to employ
tasTnribeliple yon elo exclude the 'principle of an establish. , the lebours of one sub-inspector. I took also another element
merit. (Hear.) Well, then, the' voluntary principle comes into my consideration, the number of schools which were exit-
to this, as Lnevelleard it -stated, and as I often see it illus. mined by theinspectors at present; iu other words, about
trated in the vetee.oethis house, namely, that while you may 250 for each. But there would be an important difference:
support the criminal law, while you may use the gaol and At present the inspector-has to post dowa by railway and
the gibbet for the purpose of punishing offenders, while you have flys waiting f..r him to take him on to the next school ;
maythaye been knocked down by the staff of the constable or but under the plan proposed all the schools would be in
cut by the sabre of the sillier, you shall not be allowed to districts, and the inspectors would be able to inquire
teach any religion's truth or to enforce any'; moral prim- into their condition thoroughly, and without hurry.
ciple upoti 'the' Minds either eta young or old in this They would. be able to furnish most valuable informa-
copntryt (Cheers:) Sir,' it appears to me that is departing Lion to ' the inspectors, which would ultimately
far from .the'4itty of- a government. Let its suppose a case. reach the Government and the house. I have no particular
Let ue, suppose a 'criminal were broueht before a judge, fancy; however, for this numer of ; and as
that that ; Pate judge .in' Parsing' sentience upon himwere 1b so
her for Oldhdm proposes to leave in the word " hell
church,"
to says.``Xone have violated your duty -to - God and which occurs subsequently,
rnan,'"Aialthat the crime-lei were to reply, " I lull sorry if I is to be slid about sub-inspectors
ectors in one resolution. It would
haviiiireiiired Aiiiinfit these laws, but there was no institution 'hen stand thus, namely—" That it is expedient that there
in mycOnnts.y 711101 taught me that there . was a Goad ; I should be sub-inspectors, and that Eneland and Wales should
never heaf.l iVliaCtilec laws were; I was kept from school he divided into divisions for the purposes Of education,"
w%en I was piling ; I was not allowed by my employer to re (hear) That would perfectly fulfil my object: Tile re:o!a-
eeive any'edeeeti,nt e reed it is mit any fault that I•stand here tionS go on to say, "hat the Committee of Privy' Courich
before yotrfor reelable; lees of whlchlnever heard." (Cheers ) should have. power to form in each division school di-trios,
hie, it awiearataine that :in such a case, althoegh,the judge eonsistii gof single or united parishes, or earLs of p •rishcs."
wouldaleelotehtellleeuot ha .reePollsible for 'ibe neglect, yet I. am told that it would be objectionable to unite parishee.
thati tlea Jee,gielfeinlre would be guilty if the neglect continued,. I have no doubt that there would.. be a good deal of jealousy
a.n" " jutSiscw perfectly well that there were nunierous chil upon that score ; but the right hon. gentleman opposite has
°e'en . thisenuntry who were in the ease which; 'I have truly observed, that parishes are often too smll to have
sta.tedsSand-eepee.,b.e.a t at work by their employers not schools He has mentioned a' case in which a -s
parish had
only err' weCU7cU34 but on see' nil.. so that they could onlysfir; children in it; and; of course, it would be impos-
not aftenil eien, teisseebey.;l79ol-s.
which-cohniVes at such 71s•say, , sir, that a State eilyle to make that a school district. The next resolution
some effieient iikires tOproval
a state of thin •$ and doos not take alludes-to the moans of education, and that lathe end of those
a remedy, neglects one of which refer to obtaining information. The remaining resole-
, most serious and. solemn duties
sir, lam not saying that this house• (Loud cheers.) Now, teens go on to provide means. The right hon. gentleman op-
hes neglected its duty.; poeite (Mr. Henley) objected very much to that resolution by
and here,again I ant struck with thei
Iron. friend. My right hon, friend rneca°dnlistch of my right the commissioeers en charitable trusts, with regard to those Baines, where he shows what has been deanne extract from Mr. fuutis which are sow useless or injurious to .the community.
education by, efy right lion friend the member for Coventry, who followed
as he sli,S, 'the volantaryprincie le ; whatera:
made sinee tfie year in s;
and how it stands at trews it has him, objected exceedingly to a particular scheme, which has
a
momeie; , 13 ut be it observed that during the periresent been laid upon- the table of the house by these commissioners
1818 tgero has been,
.according to the essay latel y pnbtli.ssiactc
Port,
with respect to the charities of Coventry. He said that no
by one most intelligent of the iespectors of sehOols Mit
le4, unneetvo millions voted. by this house for th.e elieli scheme had ever been thought of before in this countey.
Templenete:NtNi-ell, I must beg my right hon. friend's- pardon. lam not
purpose7gnproneoting edecation. Nor is that all. It is shown ie. originator of this scheme. I looked yesterday at a ee-
-I,vhich I fully remembered to have read on this subject,
by Sir ,Teletuttieworth that the contributions of Chun- omen
alone a 4; punt te neelerer than 800,0004 per annum, and that 'elienritt•l commissioners who ware appointed to inquire into
among the Persone who are theenostactiee supporters of edit- 1833.
Teolt.iciuste, and who sat from the year 1837 to the year
cation are the- clergy of, the Established Church. Had it not and the cord
it was at the head of that commission ;
been for, the. income which they derive from the-establishment, read, and I willri°n•ers state in their report—it is too long to
t seemitC.Tnee that loss would have been forth for the state that tie r,ftetreet trouble you with a long extant—but they
church schools, and the glorious results which et the community ;
jte charities a hich are positively injurious
purpose,Pf
flowed from them.,, e'llear.) I had a letter only the small sums of moneyhaththey produce a scrambling for the
have .
- account of the even lead to • er ich are given away, and that the
other day trope &clergyman giving me an '_
_c,
__.riotous n e
aroceesdngs ; that they
charges Of his income of3soisaciyear. Those - burdens, to while-
csmlltruaTfmount ; and that it would be mostalu'eseeflceeforinte
the schooley
I,argely con triiien..e d , I:euced itte 70h/. Tl i
sofietenr 1 edhcation.4naßaL onfotthenl could be applied to the purpose of
e had
tleman runs, not :reduced. to .
poverty,
because
it is f lof these commissioners only this—uot only was this the report
Sources of income; but I mention this to show that
did , and a •
ppiovect by Lord Brougham
Ms to who not sign the
funds deriVe4 from the establishment that those set . , originsl report, but th '
obtained: which are boasted of by the advocates: of the -wain,. Chancellor, in a statement made in the Houesepresent Lend
tary princiPle, as if they flowed solely and entirely from that April, 1853, proposed "to give to the board
—the
Lords in
right hon friend the member dealing with tire charities hr four instances re power of
principle.. send then comes my •
—nanely first
for Car ige, who was a in Der of the ' thwernment which where the object of the charity had 'wholly felled, 'and ;',..
proposedigestnte for education, and who, having filled the elis: had become impossible to carry it into effect; sem 11;"
tinguiehed .offieer of Secretary of State for the Home Depart- wheke the object itself had not failed, but where it
relent— which am man ever filled with more ability—has him. failed of doing what might be supposed to have been the in.
those been a meneber of the Committee of Council which made tention of the founder, or tended to the encouragement of
those grants,, keyiag been all that, he now comes forward as pauperism or immorality ; thirdly, where two or mere eha-
the trunipetenonthe voluntary principle. (Cheers and laugh- rities existed for somewhat similar purposes, but the funds of
tee.) Sit, I will new refer a little to' some personal charges neither was sufßeisett for its own object, but when united
which Mr. Ihsiiie;l has mede against me. lam not Pine they might do good; fourthly, where in the case of charities
to make any eharges,against hire. lie is the son ora man which had been founded above sixty years—it was not pro-
whom I very greatlrrespected for his honest and consistent (posed to touch modern charities —it was found that the result
eouduct, . both As tere.conductor• of sanest respectable news- i expected was totally inadequate to the funds aied to it ;
paper iu the.north„ of England and as a member of this 1 OU3C.. in each of these cases it was proposed that the bo ppl
and might
He is the brother of.a right hon. gentlernah for whom I have .1 sanction a different application of the funds." This was the.
always eutertained the•highest regard, and with whom I have 1 proposition of the Lord Chancellor, and I think it was a most
the happ(ireSs generally to agree on s °laical subjects. lam i eneellent one, but it was sunk
.in a place where, I regret to
not going say a word against Mr. Baines; but knowing say, many excellent things are Idste—a select committee of
that he it sal: of the voluntary principle; and that I i tee House .of Lards. (A. laugh.) It went into a select
am n"*-1-14,1*Ate ,of . that principle ,why should he not : committee and it never came out again. (Hear, hear.) I
. - i
. .

am not the person, therefore, who originated this scheme.;
It was the proposition of Lord Brougham and the Chari-
table Trusts Commissioners; it was the proposition adopted.'
by Lord Cranworth and introduced by him, in the name of
his :colleagues, into the House of Lords. (Hear, hear.)
But more than this. My right henourable friend complains
with regard to Coventry that ',many of the smaller charities
are affected. Well, the commissioners of inquiry state that in
many eases these funds are exceedingly small, and that they
have been applied in aid of the poor rates of the parishes in
which they are situated. They say that this is an illegal appli-
cation ; but they don't recommend that the Attorney-General
should be directed to prosecute the parties, because the funds
of the charities were not sufficient to bear the expenses of the
application to a court of law. (Hear.) There has been a case
lately which was sent to me from a newspaper, in which au
application was actually made by a clergyman to a county'
court, iu order that a charity which had been used for the pur-
pose of diminishing the poor rate should be expended for the
purpose ofeducation. (Hear.) The right hon. gentleman oppo-
site said, " Well, that may be the case, but in the case of Co-
ventry many of the freemen would have had to be relieved
out of the poor rate were it not for these charities." (Hear.)
That may be so ; and that may be an excellent reason for
the members for Coventry wishing the funds not to be ap-
plied as, the commissioners recommend ; but for gentlemen
who are rather strict as to the' intentions of founders being
compiled with, it does seem rather an odd reason to give.
I believe that the right hon. gentleman opposite, from his
general principles, as wall as from what I have heard from
him in this house, is one who stands strictly by the inten-
tions of founders, and would not allow any provision for
what is called a public benefit to be made by Parliament ;
but I must say, if the great founder of these charities in
Nottingham, Coventry, and elsewhere, Sir Thomas White,
who lived two or three centuries ago, could be told—" Your
intentions, no doubt, were that the freemen of Coventry
should have the right of voting at elections, and should be
Saved from being disqualified by the receipt of parochial re-
lief," I think he Would be a good deal surprised at being
told that such were his pions intentions. (Great laugh-
ter.) Mr. Ellice says—and far be it from me to contra-
dict him—that at Coventry these charities do no harm,
that they are applied to gratuities of various kinds, but that
the people of Coventry all derive great benefit from them,
and that everybody approves of their application. He tells
us, likewise, that the management of the poor-law is so wise
at Coventry, that the commissioners, who made groan changes
in other places, did not think it necessary to interfere with
Coventry. My right hon. friend says and he is quite right
to stand up for his constituents—that they are so wise, and
good, and free from the infirmities of human nature, that that
which p educes evil everywhere else maybe harmless at Coven-
try.' (Cheers and laughter.) It may be that the indiscrimi-
nate applic ttion of charity, which in other places produces
pauperism and immorality, produces nothing but wealth and
industry in Coventry. (Renewed laughter.) It may be that
the old poor-law, which did so much harm in so many parishes
in the country, is in Coventry a source of unmixed benefit.
(Laughter.) "To the pure all things are pure ;" and therefore
iu Coventry none of these objections may be felt. But lam
speaking of what is required in general, and I say that in general
it would be a great blessing to the country if these mall chari-
ties could be applied to some useful purpose. I quoted on a
former occasion the Dean of Hereford ; and many others, cler-
gymen particularly, have declared that pauperism and immo-
rality have been the cons quence of theee money gifts in
small proportions, and that it would be a great thing if they
could be well applied. I see by the report of the trustees of
one of these charities, that they are so afraid of offending any-
body that they divide the money into sixpences, and give six-
pence to each person. Therefore the worst as well as the best,
the mist dissolute as well as the most industrious, get this
small dole ; and it is impossible that that good should be done
-by it which it wis intended to produce. (Hear, hear.) . I
really believe, if we applied these small sums to a purpose
confessedly useful, that the founders, if they could know all
the cireumstaelces, and see as we see, would be glad of such
an apelication as is proposed. I think it is in fact nothing
but a superstition, when everything else is changed—
when even private property, by the laws of this coun-
try, may be altogether sold and dissipated—to say that you
will stand by the letter of these original foundations, as to
which it is quite clear that the original founders themselves
would not have maintained that purpose—to say that you will,
is spite of the injury it produces, maintain so mischievous a
distribution of the charity. Haying gone through these pro-
. positious with respect to the commissioners of charitable
trusts, I quite agree with Mr. Ellice that in any bi 1 for this
purpose
e the enactment should be most carefully guarded
that you shouldtake care to touch only those charities which
can be .fairly ascertained to be useless or mischievous, and
that the purposes which you propose to apply them to should
be clearly beneficial to the community for whose benefit
these funds were originally designed. But that is certainly
not to be all done by a resolution. I wished only to point
out the principle on which I proposed to act. Igo on, in
the 7th resolution, to provide that the ratepayers should
hive the power of taxing themselves. I need not, I think,
make any observations upon that proposal at the present
moment. Igo on next to propose that, after a certain
eeried, nearly, two years hence, the quarter sessions should
hav
ethempuoowhefrauolft has
sobseinegn aforauntde iwnitahptahriissh; or school
I schodool dis-
trict.notknow where the authority could be better placed, in a manner
more conformable to the existing law. At the time .I made
the proposal I was'not aware that, in some of the States of
America, Massachusetts especially, a parish might bo and a
parish has been indicted for not having a school open during
a whole year. I think that the objection to this authority is,
that, it would perhaps be too sparingly exercised; it might
be difficult to persuade magistrates in quarter sessions t im-
pose such a rate. But it would only be in extreme cases that
they would have to do it. There may be a district where
almost every parish for ten miles round has got a school, and
the schools are all flourishing ; but one parish may be a
nest of pauperism and immorality, where there is no instruc-
tien whatever, where the inhabitants never go to church or
~chapel, and where it would be most useful that there
should be a 'school. I think that in such a case the
quarter sessions might exercise that power. I then propose
that a school committee, where there is a rate, should appoint
the schoolmasters and schoolmistresses, and make regulations
for the management of the school. If you impose upon all
the inhabitants a rate,,l confess I.do not see ho 7 you can do
otherwise than give to persons selected by themselves the di-
rection and management of that rate. Sir James Graham is
perfectly right in saying that the school depends upon the
schoolmaster, but I know no reason for distrusting the rate-
payers of this country when they have a school. They might
be vary unwilling to have a school at all; but if they once had
a school I should out doubt their discrimination in choosing a
person fit to manage that school. Of course the regulations
of the Committee of Privy Council with respect to qua-
lification would apply to those masters and mistresses ;
and, if they were inefficient, the grants usually'
made would not be made to that school. That would be a
great reason for the appointment of good and sufficient
persens. Now we come to that great difficulty, the religious
question. It has been said that if you have any school sup-
ple, ted by a rate, whatever regulations you may make, that
school will become a secular school. The evidence which I
have upon this subject, which is from many schoolmasters, is
that though this difficulty is a difficulty serious enough in this
hou&S—serious enough among various denominations and
moue the various theorists upon education who contend
upon it—yet that in practice there is very little difficulty in
the matter. lam told—and I have heard it for years, so it is
nothing new—that where the Bible is read, where the Cate-
chism 4 taught, or wherever any other formulary is used, if
the children are told, and if their parents arc tolde" There is
ne e impulsion here ; if you choose to take away your children
duriug the religious instruction do so," that when the liberty
once given and, avowed; there is seldom •any repugaance in
allowing the children to remain duriug religious instruction,
that there are very, fe v who ever go Away; and in that
way the religious difficulty is got rid of. I have heard that
repeatedly from masters of schools and from ministers of
religion in a high position ; and 1 believe it to be the case.
I think it is an error to argue the question as though all those
children at present fa the schools up to 10 or 11 years of age,
Or, as I propose, not Mere than 15 years of age, should neces-
sarily be taught every point of each particular eyeed, that
those points on which the Protestant theologian and the
Roman Catholic theologian would argue together those points
of church government which the clergymen of the Church of
England and the Presbyterian minister might dispute about
that all those questions on which a man has his own opinion,
aed. pro'xibly a very conscientious opinion, must be brought
into the school with the children, and made matter of centre-
ve seal teaching. I own that does seem to me au excess of
religious zeal, perhaps even of religious animosity, which
ought not to be exhibited. I have heard it stated, over and
over again, that we are so peculiarly situated that that which
a is wers far all other people will not answer for us, that that
which you can do over the whole continent of Europe
and on the continent of North America you cannot do in
England. I should be very sorry to think that that is the
c %se ; because, if so, it would seem to me that our' religious
animesities must be more bitter and our want of Christian
charity greater than in any of those countries. (Hear.) I
have always teld, and I have often avowed it in this house,
that• the teaching of the British and Foreign School Society
is the best for the people of this country. (Hear.) They
teach the Scriptures—they give what thiy consider a plain
interpeetation of those Scriptures while they are teaching
them. They de not merely have them read, but they deduce
tre meaning from the words. It is a well-known doctrine of-
our own Church that nothing need be held as an article of
f I,h which is not either plainly contained in the Scriptures
or which cannot be proved thereby, (Hear.) I cannot, there-
fore, think that that mode of teaching of the British and Fo-
reign School Society ought to be distasteful to the Church of
Eugland. Bet unfortunately, although King George 111 , and
his son the Duke of Kent, eke father of her gracious Majesty,
we. e both instrumental in setting up, favouring, and patro-
nieng the British and Foreign School Society, and although
for some time that society carried on the struggle unaided, yet
I think, most unfortunately, that question of the necessity of
the Church Catechism in the schools was introduced; and
from that time the Church Catechism has been considered ne-
cessary, net so much on account of its containing anything
which others would refuse to agree to, as for the purpose of
making a distinction between Church ,sehools and others.
(Hear.) Where the school committee of any parish shall think
it necessary that the Church Catechism should be taught, I
am quite willing, thetigh it does not agree with my opinion,
that the Catechism should be taught in that school.'
e-C
But I do consider it necessary, on the ground of religious li-
berty, that those children whose parents do not approye of
-.their learning the Church Catechism should not be require i
to learn it, and should not be excluded from the school on
,that account. The noble lord (Cecil) seemed to me to be
speaking somewhat irreverently of the Holy Scriptures when
be Fail that Christians differed so much that no-
thing but a pure theism was left. Ido net think that that is
a correct description. It seems to me that the Scriptures con-
thin very plain and forcible lessons —that with regard to the
love of our neighbours, to our duties to our neighbours, to the
forgiveness of injuries—with regard to eur many moral duties
—with regard, above all, to our duty to God, the language of
Scripture is more plain, more emphatic, and illustrated by ex-
amples which go more to the heart of man and the child of
tender age than any of those' foriamlaries "welch, since the
16th century, have been invented in order to distinguish be-
twe ni the different sects of the Christian world. I therefore
hold that though it is quite necessary that a man who belongs
to one particular church should knew the reasons why that
church differs from others, yet I cannot think that a bey or
girl, at most 14 years old, should be compelled to learn those
differences, but should rather be allowed to continue, at
Jeast until that time of life, in the common bond of
Ceristiau. charity. (Hear, hear.) I hear persons belong.
lug both to the Church of England and dissenting bodies say
that such a person holds such a eeligioe ; and they say that if
the British and Foreign, the Church of England, and the Ro-
man Catholic schools are supported by grants from the Privy
Council, you are supporting different religious. I entirely
any the justice of that application of the word. And I have
good authority on that subject. Towards the end of the life of
that pions and zealous preacher, John Wesley, some one told
him that his nephew Lad changed his religion,and become aßo-
pilm Catholic. He replied, " I will not have it said that he
otb:
thing,"
ego" cle
(gear.)
religion;H e d id
not hehas
tbi
think
k changed
tbet ah
personi his
ehlaungdi
changing
modehis
IttioatnliitiyghttoiPsata;Hobit;tir,:elaii:ion is not that—it is quite a different
opheon and mode ohfadworship from one denomination of Chris-
Thereby changed his religion, but that
ev:ltinwtraosdunceee
the school canunittees ca:e' ierrsseairyigiofours hteisuesballnvga.tivvone.
h(laiveearthelsfetchuartitybet:et the Bwilee
needle ,:f l notl
be br
read
ad eu d apprehensiveteu g
b t thatin
the schools. We have, if they think fit, the Catechism, or

such other Christian formulary as they shall think necessary
to introduce. We have the security—and you can Lave no
better security—of the general religions character of the
people of this country. (Hear.) If you have not that; your
foundation altogether fails. (Hear.) My heght hon. friend
said that I was exactly copying the plan of Massachusetts ;
and when he appealed to me, I was forced directly to contra-
dict him. The plan of Massachusetts, and the plan of New
York, as I have read in various accounts, is this : that in
201:111) schools, an extract or portion of the Bible is read for
purposes of devotion, but in most schools it is not read at all,
and in order to evade any difficulty upon this subject, the les-
sons that are given in the schools arenot based upon the lessons
or the precepts of Christianity. This is the mode of teaching iu
Massachusetts ; and in a report that I read lately —I am not
sure whether it referred to Massachusetts or New York—it was,
said that in many of the schools the reading- of the Scrip-
tures was forbidden by the school committees. Such is their_
opinion ; and we have the testimony of many eminent men
that the Christian character of the country is yet preserved.
But Lt is not preserved in those schools; that is not the cha-
racter of those New England schools; and I propose that it
should be preserved in the schools of this country. You will
have the denominational schools in numbers; you will have
the Church of England scholels to a very great extent ; you
will have the Wesleyan schools and others; and you will have
these schools supported by rates, much fewer in number, id
which portions of the Bible will be read every day, and such
other instruction given as the school committee shall think
proper. But it is urged as a conclusive objection against my
scheme that one sect may gain the superiority one day in a*
certain school, anethe on another day, and that in the end it
will become a secular school. This is a somewhat chimerical
apprehension, and one that does not seem at all justified by
any fact that we have. But at all events you should compare
such an eventuality with that which at present exists. (Hear,
hear.) When lam told that there is a danger, if we adopt
this system, that the schools may in time, by some process
or other, and by the hostility of the different sects to each
other, become secular, and that thereby the religious charac-
ter of the schools may be lost, t compare that with many of
the facts which we have before us, facts which have been
stated by Sir ohn Pakington, and which are open and
ought to be familiar to all the members of this house. 'I
mean facts such as these : That a boy, being put •in prison
for some offence, is asked if he knows his duty to God, and
says that he never heard of God. He is asked if he obeys
the laws of Christ, and he says that he never heard of
Christ. And when asked what he did on Sundays, he says
that he was employed in the stable of the farmer, and was
not allowed to go to school or to church. (Hear, hear.)
You have returns like those of the Rev. Mr. Clay, showing
that there are hundreds, and I am sorry to say thousands,
to whom the most common elements of religion, not only of
tke Christian religion, but even of natural religion, aro alto-
gether unknown. (Hear, hear,) And then you tell me—
You shall not have schools ; you shall not teach these
children the Bible ; you shall not teach them Christianity
because there is a danger that, at some day or ether, these
gchools may be perverted, and may adopt a secular charac-
ter." (Hear, hear.) I say, I would rather face that danger.
(Cheers.) Opposed as I have been to secular education, I
confess-that these who have received secular education are
far mere likely to imbibe religious principles than those who
aro left in this deplorable and brutish ignorance. (Cheers )
Such, therefore, is my view, with respect to the religious
teaching of those schools which are to be maintained byre e.
There is another provision which respects the employment of
children and young persons who are employed by others than
the owners of factories. Ido not well understand how this
provision can bo called oppressive and despotic when, ever
since 1a35 or 1836, a similar provision has been in force with
respect to the 35,00 e children employed in factories, who can-
not receive employment unless they attend school for a cer-
tain period up to thirteen years of age. The law consecrates
that principle that, with regard to children up to thirteen
years of ago, this compulsory method shall be used for taking
care of their education. And if this is wise and beneficial
for 35,000 children, I say the principle is the same when you
extend it to 2 /0,000 or 300,000 of the same age. If it is
despotic and oppressive with regard to the 35,000 it ought
to be done away with. If, on the other hand, it is right and
useful, nothing but practical difficulties should induce you to
refrain from applying it in other instances. (Hear, hear.)
Tbat there are practical difficulties I am quite willing to
admit ; and those practical difficulties aro very great. I
mention in the resolutious that the certificate should be
only given half-yearly, in order that there may not be
that continual vexation to which my right honourable
friend has referred. But, although the provision should
be guarded, I think it would be a good and wholesome
provision that timers and others employing young
persons should—l will hardly say compel, but allow them
to go t• school. I have a letter from a lady, who is
well acquainted with the facts, stating that the employers in
her neiehbourhood, a mining district, objected to the children
going to school because they got so fond of it that they were
less willing to go to work. Another letter informs me that
a farmer refused to give anything to a day school, because,
since the Sen lay-school had .been established, he found that
the birds, which ate his corn, had very much increased, the
boys being no longer employed all Sunday in keeping them
off. (Laughter.) With such oases as these, it is no harsh
provisio 1, but a very fair one, that the employers of these
young persons should be made to give them some kind of
education. Of course you would take care to adapt the pro-
visions to their particular circumstances ; you would not give
them half a day at school and the other half day in the fields ;
you would have certain days for school, and by that means,
instead of diminishing, you would increase the employment
of these young persons. My right hon. friend says the mas-
ters would at once leave off employing them. I own I can-
not think that. If an employer gives 4s. a-week to one of
these boys and is told that he must give 4s. 2d., and that the
2d. is for the school, is it to be believed that he will never,
employ th it boy afterwards, however convenient it might be
to him to have his services for 4s. a-week ? That is clone by
a noble lord in his colliery ; it is done by these factory
owners ; and I do not see why what they have done should
not be imitated elsewhere. We know that many factory
owners have not only complied with the letter of the law,
but have established excellent schools by their own benevo-
lence and liberality. The passing of that law has been an in-
ducem 'nt to them to take greater care of the young persons
employed in factories than they had ,done before. I cannot
think, thee, that this provision will be any hardship. I come
to another objection, on which my right hon. friend has con-
, jt r d up all kinds f horrors. He says there will be a dread-
ful increase of the influence of the Crown, and that the Secre-
, tary to the Treasury will have the appointment of —I know
not bow many thowannelg of oohoolmasters.
Sir J. GRUlAM.—Thirty-fivnthousand.
Lord J. RUSSELL—The Secretary of State for the Home
Department may have the appointment of two or three at
Pentonvil'e and elsewhere, but that number would not be in-
creased, and the Secretary to the Treasury would not have
one of these appointments. If a measure founded on my re-
solutions were to pass this session, the patronage of the See-
retaiy to the Treasury would not be increased by the appoint-
ment of a single schoolmaster. They would be appointed as
they are at present in the Church and denominational schools,
by the school committees. There would be some increase of
patronaze certainly. There would, be from 80 to 12J---per-
ha is 120 altogether—sub-inspectors to be appointed; no very
formidable amount of patronage, and a patronage which I
think might enable my nob e friend the President of the
Council to do that which would be grateful to a number of
very honourable and hard-working men, and at the same
time useful to the country. I allude to the schoolmasters
who have been many years in that occupation. There is no
work more.hard than that of a schoolmaster—(bear)—there
• is none more important : there is none which carries with it
comparatively so little honour and advantage. (Hear.) And
seeing that a schoolmaster who is employed 12 or 15 years in
that laborious occupation can hardly ge to any other employ-
ment or profession, I should he glad to see some of these men
employed as sub-inspectors of schools, and• I believe they
would be about the most intelligent men that could be sent
round to organise schools and point out where they were
altogether deficient. Thera is one other point in respect of
which notice of a motion has been given by an hon. member,
on which I will say a very few words. It is with regard to
that large class of our young population who are neither at
school nor at work, and many of whom are wandering about
destitute in our streets. I think that much might be done
by exteadiug the grants and the rules of the Committee of
Privy Council with regard to these schools (Hear.) When
I look at the large sums in the estimates under various heads,
I own I am sorry to see so small a sum under the head of
industrial schools. (flear, hear.) So long as the
Committee of Council were endeavouring, by educating a por-
tion of the count -y, to furnish a model of what should be, I
think they were quite right in being very strict with respect
to the qualifications of schoolmasters and the condition of the
scho ds. But when you come to industrial schools, there is
mane a practical man who would net stand an examination,
and who would be completely thrown on his back by the
questions that are proposed,- yet who, if placed over one of
those schools, would be intelligent, would be kind, would
watch over the welfare and improve the morals of the chil-
dren, and lead them to elementary notions of religion in a
manner that would be a great benefit to the community,
though he might not come up to the requirements of the pre-
sent reg nation. (Hear.) If we go much further than this
we get into the department of the poor law, and we must
either provide or not provide for the temporal existence, for
the fold and shelter, of these little outcasts. I remember see-
ing one poor wretched boy in Newgate, who said he paid 2d.
ani ;lit for his lodging. The magistrate asked him how he
got his 2d. He said, " I gat it by holding gentlemen's horses,
or any odd job," The magistrate said, "But if you can't get it
that way 1" " Then (he said) I get it any how." I knew very
well what the " any how" meant. But if you take that child
and keep him at school all day, and he afterwards goes to find
shelter, he will net have his 2d. to pay for it ; and you must
either be exceedingly harsh and severe to him, or you must
incur the danger of extending your poor relief to classes who
are not properly entitled to it. My right hon. friend below
roe (Mr Baines), who las so long and so creditably to Mm-
self presided over the Poor-law Board, know this question
a vast deal better than I do. lam quite ready to entertain
the question, but I do not venture, with' the doubts that
have about it, to make any formal proposition on the sub-
ject. I think that it would be exceedingly useful to make
more greats to the industrial schools, to make them more
liberal, and to rather enlarge the rules upon this subject ;
but beyond that; and beyond that which has been already
done with regard to reformatory schools, and which will be
still further done, I cannot say that I have any plan to pro-
pose on the subject. I have now gone through these various
resolutions; and I must say that I do not think that an at-
tempt made, independently of the Government, to extend the
education of the people of this country by means of the State,
is one deserving Of any great blame or reprehension. The
resolutions may be ill adapted to this end, or they may, many
of them, be creditable. I will say at once, as I should not
wish the latter of these resolutions to cause great opposition
and contention in this house, and p flaps be rejected, when
they might meet with a happier fate on another occasion,
..
that I shall not propose to the committee to go beyond the
fiefr s
tth fie veee
mo fiatilhe
es
ee
toreFaomluetniednst.he Is
epe reoepdo sree
stool
uatsike
ihae
tconsent
I have stated, and to agree to the first five of the resolutions,
which sanction tie prine'p'e, in the first p'ace, of extending,
consolidating, and revising the minutes of the Committee of
Privy Council, and which next sanction the appointment of
sub inspectors, thereby to ascertain what is the real state of
the education of the country. Valuable as was Mr. Horace
Mann's report on the educationsl census, it is impossible in
that manner and by that mac Amery to get at the real value of
many of the schools in that list. I believe that many of these
schools andascholars are merely nominal. We may find by
further inepiry that they are better than I have supposed ;
we may find that they do not deserve to be maintained; but it
will be of great importance to ascertain those facts which will
form the groundwork of an elementary measure. And now
let me say that, note ithstanding all the objections that are
made, I do believe that the extension of the education of this
country, that an endeavour to make it good, is an object
which ought to obtain the attention of this house, and that
we ought to look to the bestmeans of effecting it. It is said that
the proposal' is a despotic one. I consider that it is one
tending to extend the freedom of this country. (Hear.) We
have been told by the poet in his description of the Country
Church—

Perchance in this neglected spot are laid
Some hearts once pregnant with celestial fire,
Hands that the rod of empire might have swayed,
Or waked to ecstacy the living lyre.
But knowledge to their eyes her ample page,
Rich with the spoils of Time did ne'er unroll.
Sir, it should be eur object that that impediment should be
removed, and that "knowledge should unroll her ample store"

VENINet, APRIL 12, 1856.

fo the young of the country, however humble •s-r-
coaiiition. (Cheers.) To: se w u
humble elation may, iiiivin, fleet eis:eo„..; - , , -
the village school, afterwards rise to some higher position of
life, and reach those prizes and honourable employments
which, in a free country, ought to be the reward and gift of
genius audhonesty. (Cheers.) I cannot conceive that we
should shut out those prizes and honours from any part of
the community, but from which, as it has been said, we do effec-
tually exclude them, as long as we continue to deprive them of
ev ry means by which they might rise from obscurity. (Cheers )
But there is a higher consideration than this. I hold that it
is the duty of the slate, of the Christian state, to promote
the cause of r.ligion and morality—(hear hear)—and I can-
not believe that we should continue in that position which I
have described in the former part of my speech, that we
should use nothing but terror, that we should exhibit nothing
but the means of punishment, that we should not unfold and
open to all the people of the laud the sacred volume, and give
them the opportunity of being industrious and virtuous here
and happy hereafter. These, in my opinion, aro endeavours not
altogether separated from the duty of the State. If I have been
told of late that such should be our object, that we should
confine ourselves to the narrower duties of the state, and that
we should leave every man to promote education as he may,
I recollect that in the same voice and in the same tone I heard
in other years what I thought a sounder lesson. It is ex-
pressed iu language so much better than any I could use, that
I beg leave to quite to the house the words which were ad-
dressed' to the house on the 28th of Feb., 1813, by one who
not only held high office, but a high office which connected
him closely with the internal condition of the country, by one
who was eminent for his powers, his abil ty, his information,
and his capacity for directing and ruling the state. (Hear,)
He said:
"All the material powers of this nation have been developed
and improved in the most remarkable manner—the entire
people, individually and collectively, appear to have been en-
grossed with this grand object ; and the moral condition of
the multitude has, as it seems to me, been most lamentably
'neglected. It is with peculiar grief and mortification that I
say this; but I cannot but bear in mind, that while all the
other governments of Europe, warned by the melancholy
events which darkened the latter years of the last century—
warped by those sad lessens, directed their earnest, teeir un-
ceasing attention to the moral training and religious education
of their people, England alone, Protestant Christian England,
neglected this all-important duty of giving her people that
training, that education, which so intimately concerns not
only their temporal but their eternal welfare. It may safely
be asserted that this most important subject has been
neglected he this country to a greater degree than in ally
other civilised nation. I must say that I think recent events
in the manufacturing districts are pregnant with solemn
warning. I quite agree with my noble friend in what he
has states to the house on this topic. The law, it is
true, has been triumphant, everything like violence has been
subdued ; and, in justice to the people of this country, I must
add, that though their sufferings, their privations, their
disappointments, have been great, yet even in those cases
where there has been a breach of the law committed, that
breach has not been accompanied by acts of cruelty or of re-
markable outrage. The police and the soldiers have done their
duty, the time is arrived when moral and religious instructors
must go forth to reclaim the people from the error of their
ways. The harvest is abundant, but the labourers are few ; it
is time that the good work should be begun in earnest ; it is
time that a better seed, the seed of sound morality and Chris-
tian truth, should be sewn in the hearts of the people, and it
must be the care of the nation—of the Government, with a
view to the future peace, the future destinies of this country,
to take this most serious subject into their anxious considera-
tion. I can truly say that I have directed my thoughts to this
question more anxiously than to any other. I know well the
eifficulties of it, and if I can but induce the house, in the tem-
per which at this moment pervades it, on this one subject, to
lay aside all party feelings, all religious difference, to endeavour
to find out some neutral ground on which we can build some-
thing approaching to a scheme of national education, with a'
due regard to the just wishes of the Established Church ou
the one hand, and studious attention to the honest scruples of
the Dissenters ea the other, in ray judgment we shall be con-
ferring a greater benefit on the people whom we represent
than by any course of policy which can be adopted, and for
myself, I will say that all party, all personal consideretious
wih I gladly lay aside could I but hope that I might be made
the humble instrument of proposing to the house anything
approaching to a seheine which should lead to the happy con-
summation I desire with the sauctiou of the Legislature."
These are eloquent wends. They are the words of my right
hon, friend at a time when he had not become a disciple of
the voluntary system—(cheer's)—because he has read those
two pamphlets—(laughter) —which seem to have obliterated
all that reflection, and wisdo e, and information which he
formerly received from long pondering on the subject, and
from his minute acquaintance with the reports Le obtained
from every part of tee country. But sow appear those two
pamphlets. They seem to have swamped every trace of his
former reflection and information. I shall not attempt to add
to the extracts I have read, which I think must be gratifying
to the house from the sentiments they contain. I have the
same wish now which my right hon, friend then entertained
I do not feel disposed to apologise to the house for bringing
the subject before it, for I have at heart the welfare of this
great country, and I do trust that the cause of education will
prosper, whatever may be the fate of the resolutions before
the house. (Cheers.)
Sir G. GREY said lie was quite sure ha only expressed the
unanimous feeling of the house when ho said that not the
slightest blame, but rather the greatest credit, attached to the
noble lord for the manner in which he introduced his series
of resolutions. Whatever opinion might be entertained with
regard to the resolutions themselves, whatever objections
might be entertained to portions of them, the house would
appreciate, and would not fail to recognise, the motives which
had actuated the noble lord iu the course he had taken. Un-
daunted by previous failures —failures of the Government
with which he had been connected—he had brought forw ,rd
the subject with renewed energy, and, he was bound to say,
' with r: rowed ability. While he (Sir G. Grey) was bound to
say that every plan submitted to that house revealed more
plainly than that which had preceded it the immense difficulty
there was in dealing with the subject, he did net think that
the discussions 'which had taken place vere useless, or de-
void of any beneficial result, for they directed the attention
of the country to a question which must ultimately be set-
tled by the voice of the country. (Hear, hew...) Such reso-
lutious as those proposed by the n .ble lord called attention
to individual responsibility in the matter, and in many cases
it led to a most decided course of action. There was not a
person in that house, and he believed he might say not a
person in the country, who would net say that education
was a blessing, and who d d not desire to see it extended ; but
when hon. gentlemen maintained that all that was necessary
to promote the cause of education was the voluntary system
he held that that was a position that could not ba for a mo-
ment entertained. He (Sir G. Grey) had listened with the
deepest attention to the eloquent speech of the hon, and
learned gentleman the member for Midhurst (Hr. Warren),
who adverted in very glowing terms to what had been done
in despotic as well as in liberal states for the Kenn,-
' tion of the cause of education, adverting particularly to the
religious element, which in this country had created so much
discord and so many differences. The noble lord who had
introduced the resolutions had given some countenance to the
views expressed by the hon. and learned gentleman. He (Sir
G. Grey) thought that persons who held those opinions, and
who brought forward these examples, forgot that in despotic
States religion was not excluded from schools, but that on the
contrary, the teaching of the religion of the State was ren-
dered compulsory, while in the New England States religion
was entirely excluded, nothing but purely secular matters
being taught. He believed that this country was not pre-
pared for the adoption of either of those courses. Ho in-
troduced this matter with very great regret, because he did not
wish to throw any impediment in the way of those who were
most anxious—and he s:lared in that anxiety—to see education
mere universally diffused throughout the length and breedth
of this country, and who wished to see all those difficulties
removed. The statement which had just been m ido by the
noble lord, as to the course he intended to take In reference
to the resolutions, very ranch narrowed the ground of differ-
euce between the contending parties, for to those parts of the
resolutions in whic the greatest difficulties presented them-
selves, the noble lord said he would not ask the sanction
of the house. The only resolutions ueou which the nonle
lord insisted were those which insisted upon
.the consoli-
dation of the acts of Committee of Privy Council,
and the appointment of inspectors throughout the coun-
try. That being the case, it would be unnecessary for
him (Sir Grey) to trouble the house with attain., what were
the views of the Government; but still, he thought it his
duty to state briefly what course the Government would have
taken if the nob e lord had proposed his resolutions as a
whole. With regard to the motion of the right hon. gentle-
man the member for Oxfordshire, he would remind the house
that these matters were not meter discussion in a committee
of the whole house, in accordance with any rule that com-
pelled the house to deal with them in that way, but simply
because it was considered the more convenient plan to deal
with them in that way. To the motion, then, of the right
hon. gentleman the member of Oxfordshire, the Government
could not have given its assent, preferring as they did agree-
ment to a certain extent with the resolutions of his noble
friend (Lord J. Russell); (oily, however, to a limited extent,
for there were some portions of them which they would have
met with a direct negative. To the first resolution, " That
in the opinion of the house it is desirable to extend, revise,
and consolidate the minutes of the committee of council on
education," her Majesty's Government would, without any
hesitation; have given a hearty and cordial assent. It had
been said that that resolution would absolve the Government
from that responsibility which was now a portion of its duty.
It would certainly strengthen the hands of the Government,
but it would not reduce their ditties —on the contrary it
would rather add to them. The right hon. baronet having
adverted to some statistics connected with education, pro-
ceeded to refer to those resolutions which referred to rating,
remarking-that as far as they Were voluntary there could be
no possible objection to them. With regard to the appoint-
ment of inspectors he thought it very desirable that the best
returns should be had, but how to obtain them lie considered
a very difficult and delicate operation. If that information were
to be obtained bysub-iuspectors, be did not think there could
be any difficulty in the otnmittee of Privy Council procuring
that information for itself. Inspectors should have full
power to enforce the information they required, otherwise it
would be perfect y valueless ; and he was afraid that nothing
short of an act of Parliament would secure that beneficial re-
sult. With regard- t i the resolution extending the powers of
the Charity Commissioners, he need only say that her Majes-
ty's Government entirely concurred in it ; and the Lord
Chancellor had introduced a bill into the House of Lords on
the subject. He (Sir G. Grey) aid not see how any man
c-oild object to the restoration to their proper use of funds
now useless and injurious. There were many old charities
which had fallen lute obscurity, which were decidedly inju-
rious, and it was one of the objects of the noble lord's reso-
lution to amend and strengthen them. Adverting again to
the resolution in reference to rating, the right hon. baronet
stated that a committee had-sat Upon the subject for several
sessions He was aware of all the difficulties that surrounded
this question, and principally of that difficulty which was in-
volved in the permission it afforded o chihiren to withdraw
frem that' religious teaching to which their parents objected.
He could not help thinking that this would at last lead to
the estabiishineut of a purely secular system. (Hear ) Such
a system as voluntary rating would be practically useless.
His noble friend (Lord J. Russell) gave power to the quarter
sessions to impose a rate where it was deemed necessary,
but he could not see that, under all circumstances, a compul-
sory rata would be beneficial. There were strong reasons
against giving persons the right to impose a compulsory rate,
and ho was afraid it would not he attended with any benefi-
cial results, while it would create a vast deal of hostility end
opposition, (Hear, hear.) With regard to the question of
religious instruction, he deeply regretted that that was a
difficulty which everyone had to encounter in endeavouring
to establish a system of education. But there were advan-
tages arising from religious differences wh.c I ought not to be
overlooked, for they had stimulated the establishment of many
schools which were most useful, and which would not other-
wise have been formed. (Hear, hear.) If schools were to
be established by rates, he thought the proposition
of his noble friend the best which could be adopted, but cer-
t • - —limy 'in many districts the ratepayers would entertain strong
objections to such a proposal. With regard to the enforce-
ment of the attendance of children, many difficulties would
arise, for where they were greatly dispersed they were in a
totally different position to factory children. With respect to
the last resolution, he thought nothing could be more useful
than adult schools, and any encouragement which could be
given to such schools was well deserving the attention of the

TT

end w t,

and exteed tee ineetis of edueateen. ;Hear )
Mr. HENLEY said, as Lord J. Russell had withdrawn all
his resolutions, except those relating to inspection and parti-
tion, he would withdraw his amendment, and renewit on the
second resolution being submitted from the chair.
Some objection was taken to this course by Mr. GLADSTONE
and other hoe. members, and the discuQsion was continued by
Mr. E. ei 11,1,, who contended that the plan of Lord Johu
Russell would neutralise and destroy the voluntary system
altogether, whereas it should be the object of all to endeavour
to make the Government, and those who acted on the volun-
tary system, to go on harmoniously together. He could not
agree with the noble lord, whom he understood to say that
secular educatien was better than no education at all; he
doubted much if it would be beneficial for a man to be edu-
cated without religion. lie felt thankful to the noble lord
for having withdrawn the most objectionable of his resolu-
tions ; but it would have been more satisfactory to the house,
and more grateful to the country, if he took the whole of
them away altogether.
Sir S. NOIiTHCOTE considered the whole plan as ivade.
quate to the wants of the country.
Mr. ti. DRUMMOND thought it quite vain for the state to
undertake the education of the people. The state bad a right
to deal with th,se who violated the laws from the want of
education, and the best mode of doing so would be to send
those who offended least out of the country, and the greater
offenders out of the world.
Mr. MILES was sorry that Lord John Russell had not
teems the opinion of the house upon his whole scheme,
feeling that some good would come out of it, ani believing
that they could not rely upon the voluntary system for the
education of the people.
Mr. GLAD ',TONE s,.id he was not satisfied with the
position in which the house was placed, for he was not
satisfied that the house ought to agree to the first r esolu-
tion, while oe the other hand its reject on would seem to
imply that they were not very anxious for the spread of
oducalion. He complaiued of the way in which Lord J.
Russell had abaridei,ed the ereatee part of his resolutions
when he feared that his adherence to them would subj,ct
him to a defeat, and he could assure his noble friend that
however satisfactory it might be to him to escape a defeat,
it was not equally satisfactory to the house to be deprived
of the opportunity of rejecting them al ogether. lie be-
lieved the results of these resolutions, if they could be
acted upon, would be very different from those anticipated
by his noble friend, and, if they could not be acted Upon,
that alone was a sufficient reason why they should not be
entertained. He believed the effect of the scheme of his
noble friend would be the destruction of the voluntary
system, for the voluntary schools could not be expected to
maintain a competition against those schools which would
be supported by rates. With respect to the resolutions
compelling employers to pay for the schooling of young per.
eons between 9 and 15 years of age, he viewed them as a
tax upon wages, which it was within the compass of pos-
sibility that circumstances might one day justify, but
which were not only now. uncalled for, but he could not
even conceive the period at which such a step could be-
coins necessary.
Mr. DISR kELI said—l venture to express a hope that,
considering the importance of the question which has en-
gaged the attention of the house, the house, notwithstand-
ing the unexpeAed turn the debate has taken, will not be
put at the mercy of the painful misconception that must
.ttencl its conduct if a division is pressed upon this subject.
Let ore recall the house to the sense of its position. We
have had the attention of the most important questions
that could be brorght before us, by one of the most dis-
tinguiehed members of this house, by a statesman, by a
en in whom we all respect however widely we may differ
frOm him, by one whit has occupied the highest position in
the ceunels of his Sovereign, and who has, with all possi-
ble pomp a A ceremony, demanded. the opinion of the
r'arlisment of England on the subject of national educa-
tion. Let us refit-et for a moment upon what has occurred
since the noble lord first introduced this question. After
having given all due warning of the circumstances under
which it has been introduced to our notice, the noble lord
at ereat tr ngth —but not greater than the importance and
exte t of the übjeet demanded—and with a degree of
detail of wi ich he show, d himself a complete master,
placed before us h's views of a question which had cursed
such profound diTerence of opinion. He geve us due time
to consider his eropesal, and at the proper period a right
hon. member of the house, who had shown that he had
give- the question all the stu ly its importance demanded
—I mean my hon. friend the member for Oxfordshire—
expressed his opinion upon it lest night, and s 'belted the
judgment of this house upon the whole question. The
debate which ensue], though deeply interesting from the
nature and importance of the subject, was, however, con-
fined to afew hon. members. My right horn friend expressed
his opinion. The right liOn. baronet the member for Car--
isle also expressed his opinion, in a manner which showed
that he had given a long and a deep attention to
the subject, and gave the house the advantage
of his views of the propositions of the noble lord.
We all came down to the house this night—the debate
having been adjourned, the Prime Minister giving way to
its paramount importance. and postponing other important
business to its conclusion—we came down every ono of us
prepared to express his opinion either by word or by vote
upon a subject the magnitude of which, as a whole, cannot
be exaggerated, and on which the people of this ceuntry,
after the antecedents of the proposition, had a right to ex-
pect an expression of our opinion. Well, whit has hap-
pened ? The debate has been suddenly terminated, suddenly
cut short, and a finger, as it were, pressed on the neck of
every hon. member. Who has done this ? Is it those who
have been opposed to the opinion of the noble lord ? On
the contrary, it is the noble Ird himself. The noble lord
took the opportunity of making many ngenious observa-
tions on the debate of the day proceeding, ant eseecially
upon the speeds of the right hon. member for Carlisle—
ebservations which we all listened to with that respect
which is due to everything which falls from the noble lord.
But what was the object of those observations ? It was—
and I appeal to the candour of the house to bear me out—
it was virtually to withdraw the resolutions which the
noble lord had proposed with such pomp and circumstance,
after so much preparation, and to terminate the debate,
which had only just commenced. I am at a lose to conceive
whit has been the cause of this conduct on the pert of the
noble lord. The right hon. gentleman the member for the
University of Oxford has told us that the noble lord must
have taken this course from the unmistakeable want of
sympathy with his views which has been manifested b 3 this
house. That may be the case. But the noble lord replied
this evening to the speech of the right hon. member for Car-
lisle, and in so doing quoted a considerable extract from a
speech of that right hon. gentleman on the subject of edu-
cation delivered many years since in this house. I was then
a humble member of this house. I repeat I was tnen a
humble member of this house. (Laughter.) I know not why
the fact excites the risibility of hon gentlemen. I was then
a humble member of this house, and I listened to that
speech with the interest which its eloquence inspired, and
which its weight and importance commended ; hut in these
days it was not the necessary consequence of a speech—
even of that right hon. gentleman—that a minister of the
Croon,or a personage in the position of the noble lord,
should withdraw his resolutiens because of that speech.
(Hear:) In these days we did not shrink from conducting
e deb to upon any sabject to a conclusion; and when a
proposition was brought forward, even a speech of the right
hon. gentleman's would not prevent a debate on such an im-
portant question as national education arriving at its
leoi-
inlet° termination. I will not now presume to enter on
the g ne-al question, though I was prepared to do so had
the debate proceeded as I, in common with hon. members
on both sides of the house, had anticipated. But I think
the noble lord ought to act frankly and fairly to the house
in the matter. (Hear.) The noble lord has, of course, a
right to the indulgence of the house when he may require
it ; but after all that has occurred—after having given
I no:ice at the very commencement of the session on a sub-
ject of vast national importance—after announcing that he
should solicit the attention of the house to this subject —a
subject, after all, not less than a proposition to substitute a
new system of education for thesystern which now prevails in
this country—after all this, when the noble lord, not choos-
ing to encounter the issue of a debate, withdraws the real
substantial portions of his proposition, I cannot help say-
ing that I think the noble lord would act more frankly and
courteously to this house if he withdrew all his resolutions.
If instead of withdrawing the seven resolutions, which in-
volve the essence of his scheme, and reserving the other five,
which are of little importance, referring as they do to forms
rather than to substance—he would act, I repeat, more
frankly and courteously to this house if he said, "The policy
of my resolutions does not appe tr to command the sympa-
thy of the House of Commons, and therefore, having had
the opportunity afforded me of bringing them forward,
and also of vindicating them from the attacks of powerful
opponents in this house, I think it more prudent., as well
as more respectful to the home, to ask permission to with-
draw them altogether." (Hear.) But what is the condition
in which the
?noble lord now places the house by the co
.
he le

,ourse
Las taken The house is called upon by the noble lord to ciecide upon five resolutions only when the state of the
benches on both sides of the house shows how ready hon.
members have been to give their opinions on the whole
question—(hear) ---,ill it will go forth to-morrow to the
country that the pompous division upon an indefinite num-
ber of school inspecsors, which we are now waked to come
to, is a division on the great question, what system of
educ ttion shall prevail ill England r (Hear.) I cannot be-
lieve that my right hon. friend (Mr. Henley) will persist
in his amendment es he is re) doubt satisfied with the ad-
mission m tr,e by her Majesty's Government and the noble
lord. He would not be doiugjustice to his cause if he per-
sisted ie his amendment ; for he very fairly celled upon
the house ,o coeeider the resolutions as a e he!te, and the
conduct of the Government nd the feeling of •the house
show the accuracy and wisdom of my right hon. friend's
judgment. I our sure it would not be nivisable to have a
division on the five resolutions of the noble lord, which,
threigh minutely objectionable as they are, nevertheless are
modified by the concess'on of the noble lord, and I hardly
think the noble lord e ill ask the house to divide on these
infinitesimal differences. It would hardly be worthy of
the dignity of the house, when assembled so solemnly and
with so much ceremoey, to be called upon to divide upon
the question of having sub-inse, eters or not. I hope the
noble lord, with thet respect which the house must feel
for him, will feel that the best coarse is to yield to the
common sentiment of 'these benches, and, to use the
diplomatic language of the right. hon. baronet the mem-
ber for Carlisle, make a clean breast of it ; and,- having
given up the roost vital points, that he will not trouble
the house to divide, after the house has shown that they do
not sanction the educational toliey of the noble lord.
I hope the noble Ind, in order that the public shall not
be deceived or deluded in the matter, will say, I will
agree to withdraw the whole of the resolutions,
though convinced I am right, yet equally certain the House
of Commons believes I am wrong." That 'appears to me
the beet
for him to ask the how.°rse f'er the nobltoe ldoirvide d to toake. It will be wrong
n his resolutions, or
that we should go into the lobby on theta, and cousume
three-quarters of an hour iu deciding a question that
ought never to have been introduced to
our notice.i To do
this would be making a mockery of discussion and division,
ancl I hope the noble lord will not, from any mistaken no-
tion of the necessity of mainteining rep..tation, put
the house to the mortification of t ,king a division on his
resolutions, but will cons, nt to withdraw them all, for
the noble lord must see that in his scheme he has mistaken
the spirit of the age and the character of his countrymen.
Nothing, then, could be more graceful and dignified on
the part of the noble lord, after having virtually aban-
doned his plan, than fur the noble lord to consent to with-
draw his eesolutione.
Lord J. RUSSELL, with great deference to the right
lion. gentleelari (Mr. Disraeli) and the right hon. baronet
(Su. J. Graham), should atterni t to do what he conceived
to be best for the cause of education. He did not consider
himself bound to take the advice of those right hon. gentle-
men, because if the resolutions were defeated by a vote of
that house, there would be an end to a scheme which he
be!ieved was a useful one. He very well recollected that
in Iq9 a great storm was rai,ed on, ace runt of a miscon-
ception relative t., roirmal schools. Nemerous petitions
were presented against the Government measure, and much
clamour wasrai ed, feuridedon misconception. Go verntneut
thought fit to withdraw that part of the proposal, but did
not think it advisableto withdraw the wholeof the scheme.
Tho measure was cartieci ja,.:that house by a majority of