The Sun.
London, England, 1860-06-09 00:00:00

of Malmesbury) could not understand the inconvenience of
the position, because, before we sent a Minister to Rome,

we should be able to ascertain whether he would be received

or not. And with regard to the compliment not being re •
turned, instances had occurred in which that had not taken
place ; for until very lately Switzerland had sent no Minis-
ter to this country—very much, as he thought, to her own
detriment—for if she had, very much of what had happened
might have been prevented. The noble lord had seemed
to suppose that it was the intention of the supporters of the
view of the noble earl (Stanhope) to adopt the line of inter-
fering with the affairs of Italy. He was very glad to find
that spirit animating the noble lord opposite. He hoped
the noble lord would not act upon that policy, in the pre-
sent state of our relations with the Italian States. After
the terrific scenes which had been enacted at Palermo, let
the noble lord be very careful how he paFsed an opinion
upon the acts of the Italian Governments. When her
Majesty's Government blamed, and very naturally
blamed, the slaughter and loss of life arising
from the bombardment of Palermo by the Nea-
politan ships, were they not precluded from any severity of
expression by history itself, and that very recent history ?
(Hear, hear.) Those who now condemned the Neapolitan
Government for bombarding Palermo might recollect that
only in 1849 the King of Sardinia, Victor Emmanuel him-
self, bombarded Genoa, and that the operation was carried
out by this self-same man Garibaldi. (Hear, hear.) God
forbid that he (the Earl of Malmesbury) should justify either
act. But if their lordships or her Majesty's Government
interfered in the affairs of Italy, they were only exposing
themselves to very severe observation, and even to great
blame, if they allowed such interference to take place after
they had given expression to their views by any rash
speeches in that house. (Hear, hear.)
The Marquis of NORMANBY could add the testimony
of his personal observation as to the inconvenience of con-
ducting our diplomatic relations with Rome in the present
manner. During three years' experience as Minister he
had received every possible assistance from the eminent men
who had been attaches at Rome. Lord Lyons, who was
during part of that time in almost daily eerrespondence
with him, complained frequently of the inconvenience he
experienced in treating with the Court of Rome and its Mi-
nisters, and of the extremely disagreeable position in which
English diplomatic agents were placed, as compared with
those of other powers. Helthe Marquis of Normanby) felt
indeed how undesirable it was that a person in holy orders
should act as Minister from the Court of Rome in this
country, but he regretted that the course which was pursued
with so much success by the Courts of Prussia and Russia
was not adopted by this country also.
MALICIOUS INJURIES TO PROPERTY ACT
AMENDMENT BILL.

Lord CHELMSFORD, in moving the second reading of
this bill, explained that its object was to cure a defect in the
law which had been discovered on the indictment of a per-
son for obstructing a steam-engine, and so causing the flood-
ing of a mine. The offender could not be convicted under
the act 7th and Bth Geo. IV., because the engine itself was
not injured, neither could he under that of the following
year, because he had not caused the water to be conveyed
to the mine, but only to accumulatethere.
The LORD CHANCELLOR was sanguine that the
Consolidationßill, which had already passed their lordships
house, would become law before the prorogation, but in the
event of a different result, it was desirable by means of the
present bill to effect the improvement of the law required.
The bill was therefore read a second time.
ALLEGED SECESSION OF ENGLISH SHIP-
WRIGHTS TO THE FRENCH DOCKYARDS.
Viscount DUNGANNON asked the First Lord of the
Admiralty whether the report that from 400 to 500 work-
men had been discharged from the dockyard at Portsmouth,
there being no employment for them, and were now en-
gaged as shipbuilders at Cherbourg and other ports of
France, was correct. It was well known that great activity
Prevailed in the French dockyards, whether with a view to
put the country in an efficient state of defence, or with a
view to an aggression on some other power, he could not of
course say ; but the report to which he referred had caused
great uneasiness in the public mind ; and he should there-
fore be glad to hear from the noble duke either that the
statement was unfounded, or that, at all its, the state
of our navy was such as to be quite aattfactory to the
noble duke.
The Duke of SOMERSET—In order that I may reply
with clearness to the question which the noble viscount
has put to me, I will divide it into two parts, First, is it
true that between 400 and 500 workmen have been dis-
charged from Portsmouth dockyard ? and, secondly, are
they engaged in shipbuilding at Cherbourg or other ports of
France? Now, as regards the first of these two questions,
I can answer that a good many men have been discharged
since the commencement of the financial year. Last year,
when I came into office there was a programme of very ex-
tensive works to be performed ; and on examination I found
that we should not have either enough money or men enow
to complete it within the year ; I therefore took another vote
for £lOO,OOO, and added considerably to the number of men
in the dockyard; and during the last four or five months of
the last financial year there was a larger number employed
than had ever been the case since the commencement of the
present century. In fact the number was almost double the
usual one. When the work had gone on for some time, I
was advised that if it continued at the same rate our stock
er Limber would soon be exhausted ; and that it was neces-
sary, if we wanted good wood, that it should proceed some-
, what more slowly. Nevertheless, I determined to make no
alteration till the end'of the financial year, and then I gave
directions that the number of men should not be suddenly
reduced, but that a few should be dismissed every week, so
that on the one hand the authorities might get rid of the in-
ferior workmen, and on the other, those who were discharged
might have a better opportunity to obtain work elsewhere.
In this manner the establishment was reduced from 20,000
to 17,000 and some hundreds, those dismissed being inferior
workmen. With regard to their having found employment
in France, I must say that, to the best of my belief, there is
no foundation whatever in that report. (Hear.) I saw the
statement to which the noble viscount refers some weeks
ago, and having made inquiries into its truth I was informed
that they had a sufficient number of native workmen in
both the Government and the private dockyards at Cher-
bourg. I learned also that it was extremely improbable that
English workmen would go there, because the highest rate
of wages was only 4 francs a day, whereas the rate in Eng-
land was 65.; and further, that 400 shipwrights had actually,
from motives of economy, been dismissed from the Govern-
ment establishment at Cherbourg. This may serve to quiet
the noble viscount's apprehensions. We have still more men
in our dockyards than we had in 1815, when we had the
greatest number ever known till now; our workmen have
not found employment in France, but the French Govern-
ment have dismissed a considerable number of their own
hands ; and it is very improbable, from the difference be-
tween the rate of wages in the two countries, that our men
will ever think of seeking employment across the Channel.
(Cheers.)
The Earl of SHAFTESBURY could corroborate what
had fallen from the noble duke. He happened to have pri-
vate information (on which, however, he could most confi-
dently rely) to the effect that two men had been over to
Cherbourg seeking employment, and that in a very short
time they were found to be in a state of starvation, and were
obliged to be sent back to this country. The only point on
which his information differed from that of the noble duke
was as to the highest rate of wages, which he was told was
5 francs instead of four. He was anxious that the truth
should be known, lest any other English shipwrights should
be tempted to go over on a wild-goose chase to France, and
thus subject themselves to hardship and
-privation. (Hear.)
Lord DUNGANNON was perfectly satisfied with the
noble duke's explanation, but he had felt the question was
one that ought to be set at rest. (Hear, hear.)

REFRESHMENT HOUSES AND WINE LICENSES

BILL.

•
Earl GRANVILLE, in a few words which were inau-
dible in the gallery, moved that their lordships go into
committee on this bill.

The Earl of SAAFTESBURY said that as the measure
appeared to be considered a supply bill they were precluded
from making any alterations in it ; but he must say that it
struck him as being fully as much a police bill as a bill of
supply. The measure had been very much improved, in-
deed, during its passage through the other house, but there
were still two or three points in it that were deserving of
note. In the first place, there were a great number of re-
freshment houses on which a license of 10s. 6d. per annum
would operate as a very heavy tax. If any of their lord-
ships ever went into the bye-ways of London they would
see places where they sold sheep's-heads and fish, and where
the whole of the furniture was not worth the price of the
license, and yet they were refreshment houses, much fre-
quented by the poor. Another question that struck him
was, as to the extent of the bill's operation. On the Hope
estate, Lord Portman's estate, the Duke of Portland's, and
many other ♦ery extensive ones, the tenants were strictly
prohibited by their leases from opening refreshment houses.
But the point that struck him as most serious was the very
extreme power which was given to the police. By the 18th
clause any policeman or constable might enter any refresh-
ment house whenever he pleased, and might go down into
the collar or up into the garret—(laughter)—at any time of
the day or night. lie quite agreed as to the propriety of allow-
ing the visits of the police in cases where wine or spirituous
liquors were sold; but he could not see any need for them
in the case of confectioner's shops, many of which were ex-
ceedingly respectable. In the 39th clause there was a pro-
vision which had never before found its way into an Act of
Parliament—a provision making it a petal offence in any
seller of wine, beer, or ci3cr, te harbour the police. So
that if by any means a policeman were allured into one
of those places, here was a provision which declared his
being found there to be a penal offence. He knew that
this had given cause for a great deal of apprehension ; he
knew that many people were extremely uneasy about it ;
and he believed that the Government themselves were ready
to admit that this was a provision which required amend-
ment. lie was not going to move any amendment, because
this was to be considered a supply bill, and just at the pre-
sent moment it was not desirable that they should raise the
question of the rights of the house as to supply bills. At the
present moment he refrained from making any motion, but
the public must see that if restrictions were imposed upon
the free action of that house it would be very detrimental
indeed to the public service. Reserving his personal opinion
as to the rights and privileges of the house, yielding only/