The Sun.
London, England, 1860-03-20 00:00:00

[Continued from our first page.]

great extent, and in making Changes in the distribution of
,
political power yonsfe, he feet, conferring' that power upon
a gins, the- very object-which youx legislation during ,the
last ten yeses has endeavoured in every way to avoid. (Hear.)
I cannot; therefore; approve of this mode of increasing the
franchise of towns. Ido not think that this proposition
eight to have leen brought forward unless it had been ece
conrpanied by means by which the elements of the collet',
tuencies would have been much more vitried in character;
and unless there had been a counterpoise to. the predomie
nance • of. any, particular class. It may be said that the
result of the, last general election was favourable to the
introduction! of the working classes to the constituencies '
by means. of reducing the franchise. It is difficult to say
what was the result of the last general election. That is a
matter, I think, of considerable doubt ; but no doubt the
noble lord:took a prudent course when he took a prompt
one, and claimed the opinion of Parliament the moment it
came back. ----Meet would have been the result if he had
waited me il.!Sifeee. months after it came back I leave the
house ifsall to calZr:abate. But. the opinion of the country
upon this saubject:of the working classes was at all events
given in no very deeidedmanner, but in a diffident and hesi-
tating manner. I thinlnthe opinion of the country was this
—that it 'Was desirable that a certain portion of the working
classes, theee who by their skill and their conduct proved
theutselveC worthy of the insivilee of the franchise—should
be sdniitnal into the constituencies under conditions which
guarded the community from the predominance of a class.
That I belie-eel' was the real verdict of the country, but it
was the same opinion as that entertained by the late Govern-
Ment. It is a mistake to suppose that the working classes
at this moment have not a 'share in the constituencies. I
must consider thittehe freemen of England are a portion of
the Working classes, though alivays treated with such con-
tempt by the noble lord; The result has shown that in the
metropolis itself the great body of the working classes are
in possession of the franchise, and that they also possess the
franchise in many of the most important northern boroughs
no one I believe will deny. I'd° not yet suppose that even
among the present constituencies you could place the share
which falls 'to the working classes. at less than an eighth or
a ninth of the franchise which are now enjoyed. But when
we come to talk of tho working classes we must remember
that they are not now confined to the towns; and when hon.
gentlemen lay down as a :principle that all the working
classes in the towns ought to enjoy thefranchise—and I find
that many men of eminence recommend that—we must not
forget there ace working classes who do not dwell in cities
or boroughs—(hear, hear)—and whose claim, if that prin-
, ciple be admitted, has every right to be considered. There
are rural labourers—a superior class of rural labourers, a
superior working class in the country—men who, if you
took to their-knowledge, their Pursuits, or their general
conduct, the 'great skill and precision which are required in
the accomplishment of their task need not, I think, shrink
from a comparison with the most intelligent and educated
mechanics in towns. If you are to rest the claim of a work •
ing man to the franchise on the fact that he is a skilled me-
chanic, you must take into consideration the claim of the
English woodman, of the English shepherd, of the English
gardener, and some other of the highest class of labourers
engaged is husbandry. It is inesessble to deal with that
in a general way ; and therefore it necessarily cbareS
to this, that you leave to mace a selection from the working
elasscgs that their voice and influence should be felt. That
eon (silly he done by the adoption of the principle of selec-
tion and qualification. But if we accept the scheme which
the noble lord has placed before us, the only effect will be to
give a predoninanee in half the boroughs of England to a
aisst u ho, it they act as all their antecedent conduct would
• autherisp us to believe they would act, that is to say, with
derision, with combination, and with discipline, will have a
predominant power, and probably return to this house a
party that will reereise a groat, and perhaps a controlling
influence over the government of the country. (Hear, hear.)
Are you Prepared to sanction such a course ? Is it a course
that can be juatitied ?—I will not say upon' principles of po-
litical expediency, but on principles of political justice? It
is not ; and tilts-clue I eannot agree that the method by which
the noble proposed to introduce the influence of the
working elasses into the election of members of this house is
a wise and well considered one. I think he ought to have
iry neescil t.e constituencies of the boroughs by various
means, and net merely by this perilous monotony of process,
annhat while he could have effected that introduction of' the
ghost superior avid skilled amongst the working classes to the
constituencies, he asfi'ght at the sank time have done-it in
a mode and with conditions Which would not have neu-
tralised the voices of all those various elassesswhieh are con-
tained in the present borough constituencies. (Hear, hear.)
Now I proceed to consider the next' principle upon which
this bill is founded, and that is the reduction of the county
franchise. I for one have never been opposed to seeing all
the counties of this country possess large and ample con-
stituencies, believing that the influence of the land is most
beneficial under our constitution for the preservation of our
libertion: I have always been anxious that the great pro-
prietors of this country, and these who represent the landed
pre;perty of the country in this house, should come here
supported by the voice of eammerous constituencies, and
should be at the heed not merely of their tenantry but of
their neighbours. I have always felt- that that would add to
their, power, and I lock upon their influence and power to
be of the utmost consequence and advantage to the state ;
but in increasing the constituencies of counties there is one
Condition which must he observed. The constituencies thus
created should be fairly connected with the chief property
and the chief industry- of a county. A constituency` would
not be fairly connected with the chief property and the
chief industry of a county if, for example, the sugrage was
possessed by some non-Parliamentary borough, which
might be a new community, developing itself by the influ-
ence of some special interest of its own, or some decaying
town, which had no relations whatever with the property
and industry of the county, but which was there with an
ld vested right of existence, and which, if it exercised the
franchise, would exercise it very often without any sym-
pathy with the interests or general feeling of the county.
I do not think that the condition to which I have referred
—viz., that the constituencies of a county should be con-
nected with its chief property and chief industry—is ob-
served when a great non-Parliamentary borough, teeming
with population, is permitted to send to a county election
its hordes of voters who have no local feeling or interest in
the county, and who are only fitted to vote for a great
manufacturing borough interest. (Hear.) Ido not think
that great condition is observed, especially at a period when
you are more and more establishing the franchise of England
an occupation alone, if you allow a town under tlse operation
of the freehold, franchise to become a great manufactory of
split votes, from which at a general election bands
of" vdtera• can be poured forth to elect members of
Parliament forelistricts with which they have no local
sympathy, .and in which they really have no local interest.
In this, bill of the noble lord I don't find any condition or
any means by which that great injustice can be rectified.
The fourth or disfranchising clause of the noble lord's bill
disfranchises upon a very great scale; because it enacts
that the occupatiOn of a building jointly with land shall
not confer the right of voting unless the building be of £ss
yearly value in. counties. That is a new clause, and, if
carrieds it would d sfranchise a great number of voters in
Counties and rural boroughs. I know that the noble lord
:has a. horror of .disfranchisement, which he proposed •n
every bill he himself brought forward, but which he
()t.
•
jetted to in the:measure I introduced ; but, as simplicity is
'the order of the day, and as the noble lord 'will not go out
of his way to establish a just franchise for the counties, he
iought at least to have refrained' from such a measure of
sweeping disfranchisement as is contained in that clause,
-which only applies to rural voters. (Hear.) The county
franchise iinthis bill will greatly reduce the influence of the
landed proprietors and the landed interest of this country,
and I object to that reduction. (" Hear, hear,'' from Mr.
:Bright.) • 1 tell the hon. gentleman, who seems alarmed
and annoyed-at such an expression, why I use it. I look
round Europe at the present moment, and I really do not
see any country of any importance (excepting England) in
which politiCanliberty could be said to exist. I attribute
the creation and the maintenance of our political liberty to
the influence of the land and to the tenure of land in 'this
country. It is a country in which there are large Proper,
ties to which men can rally—(hear)—and that in my mind
ae the only security in an old European country against
that centralised form-of government -which has prevailed
mid must prevail in every Europea-n nounnunity where there
is not that counterpoise, wherethe tenure of land does not
supply those large properties round which men can rally.
It is to that tenure of land you are indebted for your nsblic
'liberties, because it is that tenure of land which makes local
.self-goVernment a fact in England, and which allows the
great body of the people to be ruled by traditionary hull'.
ence and habits, instead of being governed, as they are in
'every
other country, by mere police. (Hear.) Believing,
therefotte,, that this proposition for the reconstruction of the
county franchise has a tendency to diminish that just and
salutary influence of the land of this country, I highly ob-
ject to the proposition of the noble laid. (tiectr.) Now,
the third principle of the measure is the redistribution of
seats'
,Let us see if the application of that principle, as pro-
by this measure, be just and wise one. There are
two schools whose opinions obtain on this subject. First
there is that school of politicians who wish entirely to re-
construct the boreeetel
of representation of Eng-
land, or, I might say, vgcr,nl to subvert it. The opinion
of those who belong-to that Thlool is that what is to be ob-
tained by a public Parliamentary. election in this country
is the declaration of the opinions mere numerical
majority, and, with that view, they °w.tut subvert the exist-
ing, system of representation in retard to boroughs, and •
construct it in a manner that should produce tha(4 &t
genii
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principle suited to the wants and condition of the country.
There is no other state in America—no other country on
the other side of the Atlantic, that can produce a represen-
tative assembly elected by so larme a number of persons;
therefore in their case and for their purposes they have a
first-rate assembly. But that principle would not apply to
England. (Hear.) So if we were to take the numerical ma-
jority as the 'only'testL-inferior as wo are to many countries
in regard to numbers—if eve had en assembly
elected upon
that principle it would be not a first-ra tr. 1,,r v,,,-
—a v ;vs, +
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try, possessing a complicated system of taxation andat Social
life, we are bound- in our national Legislature- to repre-
sent all' the classes, and all the interests of the canntry; and:
01- tJaeSen.aticaal traditions and prescript:lona tilich are the.
Source of our power-and the basis of our social organitation ; i
and in England, while you have a reprezen . tive assembly
elected upon those conditions, and upon that method, inas-
nmeh aa you have in this country the most powenful, social.
organisation in the world, you have a fare- rate representa-
tive assembly. You have the-House of Commons. (Hear.)
No one, I imagine, pretends that the existing borough sys-
tem of parliamentary repeosentation was invent 4 to obtain
those results; but that bOrough' system which secures the
distribtition of parliamentary representation amongst all in-
terests has bees preserved and cherished by the country be-
cause they found the ancient machinery, in operation, and
because also they found that it did, produce these results.
I can perfectly understand the principle which the hon.
member for Birmingham, and others who take the same
, viewe advocate, and *which so alarm's the country, for I know
that their 'object is to substitute the Ameridan principle- of
;making -numbers alone the basis of representation. But those who act upon the English principle must be ini- ''l
pressed 'with very different consideration:a ; and all they
lean do in 'reference to 'the redistribution of mats is this,
that -When they find new and powerful interests have risen
up which are -not duly represented, then, following the
example 'of their predecessors, not merely parliamentaily
i precedent, but the conduct of the sovereign in the cxdrcise
of the royal prerogative, they will entertain measures for
calling those new interests' into the representation; and as
it is the custom, of the country, long settled, that the mem-
bersconstituting the representative assembly should not be
increased, this was-the mildest course presumed, to deprive
the least iraportant of the existing boroughs in some degree
of the neewer of representation which they lioese.ss. The
true principle then, as I contend, to meet these wants in the
• representation, arising from the claims of, new interests, is
that which was adopted by the late ,Governmeht, in their
bill of last year—(hear, and ' oh)—viz., that of canine.
upon some of the least important boroughs to contribute
the means by which the desited result can ho obtained.
(Hear, hear.) Emit, sir, the noble' lord carries his point
either too far or not far enough. (Hear.) If the present
borough system is in his mind so indefensible as the hon.
member for Birmingham and those who are in favour of the
American principle represent it to be, he should have made
a great advance ;,but if, on the other hand, his principle is
the .English principle, and he believes that theme is no
ground upon which we can disfranchise a borough except
the' great state necessity of calling unrepresented interests
into this house, the noble lord has gone much too far,
(Hear, hear.) He ought not to have made enfranchisemsnt
precede disfranchisement. (Hear, hear.) There are some
boroughs in the north of England whose claim to represen-
tation cannot be denied, but it is no part of our system( to
disfranchise boroughs in the north without enfranchising
others in the south, for we considered that it was our duty,
and in accordance with the constitution; that we should
study distribution of power throughout the whole country.
There were one or two counties where :the representation
was ludicrously inadequate, for there were large interests of
a different and contrary character. There were immense
districts in the West Riding extending over 70 miles whose
interests, being agricultural, were different froin those of
another portion.of the same county, where manufacturing
industry was teeming, and it was advisable, therefore, that
those interests, which were not adequately represented
should be c.alleddnto the councils of this house. But the
noble lord goes past that. I object to this , system on two
grounds. First, he has acted upon a complete fallacy in es-
tablishing what I may venture to call accunatilative mem-
bers for places already represented. Now, I wint to know
froM
.the Government upon what principle, they have so
acted? You do not act upon that principle in tho electoral
body. If a man has £IOO,OOQ a year hells onlynne vote,
- and upon very good grounds, for. we .know that, although
the man has a large fortune, and yen.. give him only the
same vote as the humblest dweller in a £lO tenement,
he has still an indirect influence on the community, which
asserts itself and sufficiently protects his property. (Hear,
hear.) Why should you do that for Maectester or Bir-
mingham which you do not do for Ale wealthy individual ?
Members are sent here to represent the *opinions of places,
and not the power of places. Supposing the interests of
Manchester were assailed, does a.nylsody.seippese that they
gould only be defended by the two respectable representa-
tives who now sit in this house for that imposteost constitu-
ency ? Not at all. We know that there would be scores and
scores of members, not confined to one side of ;the house who
would support the interests of Manchester, and therefore T
wholly disapprove of this principle as perfectly unconstitu-
tional, and as changing the character of the house. Be •
cause, if representation is to be meted out according to
population and property, you will soon have very few places
indeed represented in this house, and representation would
, finally be confined to the large manufacturing and comfier-
eiarcities and to the large counties. I admitthat in the Re.
' form Bill of 1832 you. did confer upon some counties a third
' member. But I believe the eireurnstances under which that
t was-done cannot be drawn into a precedent, 'hut even if it
were a precedent—as, perhaps, I shall be told—it is a very
bad one. In the Reform Bill of 1832 it was necessary to
in-
crease the county members. There were some counties
which exceeded the number of voters which authorised
' the conferring of two members, and yet did not reach that
number which permitted division; and this plan of giving
a third member in such cases was consequently had recourse
to. But some of those counties, we know, now reach,the
amount of population which would justify a division, audit
appears to me that it would be better to divide them than
to continuo this plan of aceemulative membere, which can-
not be defended, and which is entirely opposed to the spirit
of the constitution. But there is another ground equally
objectionable. It appears it is the practice—the happy
practice of the constitution, that almoSt every class, and al-
most every great interest and every great institution is re-
presented, and though it is the happy practice of the con-
stitution that in that sense the minority may be represented,
still I think that when a constituent body is. formed, the
majority ought to decide, and the minority in that
sense ought to have no claim. It is the custom of the
country, and that is a very strong reason—(hcar, hear)--
but beyond that the principle is based upon all our consti-
tutional precedent and practice, and it appears to me to be
a prir ciple that can also be upheld upon the soundest and
wisest political reasons—even abstractedly. (Cheers.) The
noble lord in 1351 proposed that the minority should be
directly represented in this house. In my opinion a more
unconstitutional course could not have been suggested, for
there is only one way by which the minority of a constituent.
body can be represented—that is by becoming the majority:
(A laugh.) That is the only way by which it ought to be
represented. (Hear.) The noble lord has proposed, not
directly, but indirectly, to secure a representation to the
minority in the usual places, in some cities stud in some
counties. I entirely object to that; but it is dine, although
indirectly, in this hillefor there are some counties and some
towns to which a third member is added, on that principle..
We have of late years complained of a want of distinct
parties, and a distinct principle in this house. So far as I
can learn that is a want that will very shortly disappear.
(A. laugh.) I think we shall soon have distinct parties and
distinct principles for all sides. (Hear, hear.) But if any-
thing could be devised which could introduce into this
house a timid temporising spirit it is the political and par-
liamentary machinery that recognises the representation of
a minority of the constituent body in Peril:intent. A want
of conviction and a want of energy in public lifehyould be
the inevitable consequence, and therefore I entirely object
to the second principle the noble lord wishes to establish
by this re-di tribution of seats. (Hear, hear.) It appears
to me that the .principle of the distribution of seats as the
noble lord applies it is perfectly unsound, that it can satisfy
hone of those will) are ,opposed to the English element of
parliamentary life—that it cannot satisfy those who want
to ro-construct the English House of COmmons upon the
American principle—while at the same time it, fatally
alters the only sound principle on which the disfranchise-
ment of boroughs ought to be permitted, viz., that 'of
conferring representation on interests not already repre-
sented. I have adverted to the three principles of the noble
lord's bill. Now what is the course we ought to' take 'in
respect to the measure? That is the question. (Cheers.),
It_is a very bad measure. (" Ohl" laughter, and cheers.)'
That, I think, is the universal opinion in regard 'to it.
' (" Oh !" end cheers.) In point of fact I believe Ido not
, know more than two individuals who perfectly approve of
it—viz., the noble lord the Secretary and the member for
Birmingham. (Hear.) And this I must say, that the
member for Birmingham, with that candid audacity which
greatly neutralises the-pernicious opinions he expresses and
gin dangerous course he pursues, has already told us that
no sooner does the bill pass thanheshallagitate the country-
in order to obtain a much more extensive change. (Cheers.)
But, if we reject this bill on the second reading, we know
What will be said—it will be said by the noble lord, "You
are against parliamentary refotin—you 'are against extend-
ing the franchise, which when you were, in a' respandble.
:position you yourseSes brought in a 'bill to do." I ate not
'against extending the franchise ; but I say, if we are to deal'
'with the subject at all, I think the franchise might be ex-
tended, and safely extended, in a way upon the 'whole bene-
ficial to the country. My *pinion, so far as I can form an
estimate from the documents in my 'possession, is that under.
the bill of 1859 the franchise wouldhave been more extended
than it will be under this bill. Therefore lam not against
extending the franchise if it be necessary, nor am I against
the redistribution of seats if it be necessary that seats should
wisheie_tiCil
be redistributed, in order to call into parliamentary
istee bew
parieeseeenutesdtt.t
repre-
sentation great interests that are not now sufficiently re-
uheeeethsseratiyn
constituencies—if . at re
the boroughs
toci3elinnter tin
ques-
tion--may not be increased, because I think they
can be increased in a manner which weds]
strengthen the constitution, and because I think
the means and materials are in existence by which
that object may be attained, and by which the commercial,
he manfitettiring, and the working classes in towns Might
save an increased power of representing:their .opinions in
;ci haves, while•on the other halal, that: dile weight sad
senca, no iMportant.and+o ii,teikary to the lib .ertie,.. of
, mint ry, of the landed interest, should be fairly and ade-
frip-lv repressnted. (Hear, hear.) Therefore, SO far as the
.t,.. . ,
this bill .
-alleged. principle of this is concerned lam not justified
in saving, though I 1 hink the application of the principle is
moat objectionable, that we ought to reject the bill on the
heals) We shall have an oppor-
tunity of considering the bill 1
second reading. (Hear,
in committee. What will yen_
to ' .-
do in committee ? That will be deferred a period that will
enable all parties, high and low, deeply to consider the
deal with
re-
sponsibility which rests upon those who have to •
subjects of such importance. Ido not feel called upon now
to intimate what may be done by myself or my _
ether I shall friends when
the bill is in committee. lam not at all sure whether
not sure whether
propose anything myself after Easter. I iml ~ ,
~ ,__,. ~_
tho responsibility of the measure may riot, N,7,-1:'• 11.'
~':7
cireunistalwes under which it wit:, 1:,1 , din ill ,:ii • P ~; 1 -il
fairly rest with the nobl6 lord and her Majesty's Govern-
ment. (Hear.) rndeed, if I were to take a limited and a party.
.view of the consequences of this bill, it would not be for
the Conservative party that I should feel any very great
alarm. Ido not think that the 100 boroughs of England
that are to be delivered over to one class whose interests,
and opinions, and habits are identical—l do not think those
100 boroughs are represented, generally speaking, by mem-
bers of the Conservative party. (Hear, hear.) And,
though it may deprive this house of a vast number of
members who now adorn it, and give to it weight and
responsibility and knowledge, and who, though they do
not sit on the same benches as myself, I should not the less
regret the absence of as a great national calamity, I should
be sorry to see tne vast influence and authority' of the Whig
party ein i oiled. It is. I drink, one of the 1,,.--I•,.‘ruliti.c
public 'liberty and good ;:fovomie,rit in t',..i7, !,-,i',`
,',:vheu i 4 c;au'gr those , place in 11i,... ,aliniii:

FA,

CCU _
140,P-51 (4.,.ar, hear.) I thi.
t•hwages tAe. Dlile.e(.,ult.l✓
P:112(.4:1 those Who respoct th.e tradition of the country, and who
will be Taithful to .its
,prescriptiVe. claims. Therefore I
should deeply deplore to
see this serious blow uccomplished
so far as the Whig interest is concerned, and from hands
from which 20 years ago we should not have expected such,
a-blow to come. (Hear, hear.) I shall, therefore, not op-
pose the second reading ; but I shall be curious, when the
house is in. committee on the bill, to see whatpropositions
will be made to render it, even in. the opinion of hon. gen •
lemon o p.posi tr. Nvho have already shown a Brea; disposition
. • - that xv,t !e irljti,,tigto the
.1:41-11,144,144ttNuatt 0,11.1. t the i

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