The Sun.
London, England, 1860-08-04 00:00:00

STAMP DUTIES (No. 2) BILL.
This bill was read a second time.

The sitting was suspended at 4 o'clock.
The house resumed at 6 o'clock.
THE. NEUTRALISED PROVINCES OF SAVOY.

Lord J. MANNERS begged to be allowed to put a ques-
tion to the noble lord the Foreign Secretary respecting the
proposed conference with reference to the neutralised pro-
vinces of Savoy. On the 25th of June last he believed the
house was informed that the English Government had ac-
ceded to the proposals which had been made by the French

Government for the appointment of a conferonce to settle
how the arrangements connected with the annexation of
the northern provinces of Savoy should be carried out. He
begged, then, to ask the noble lord as to the time when, the
place where, and the mode in which such conference would
be held.

Lord J. RUSSELL said that the noble lord had stated
quite correctly that her Majesty's Government had accepted
a proposal for a conference. That proposal, together with
two ether modes of settlement, were submitted to the great
powers by the French Government; andher Majesty's• G-
overnment immediately accepted the proposal for a confer-

once. But the Governments of Austria and Prussia stated

that for various reasons they thought there would be no ad-
vantage in assembling a conference. There had been no

Meeting of the great Powers since, nor had any time been

submitted as to when the Conference should be held. There.

fore so the matter must remain until those two great
Powers withdrew their opposition, or until some other pro-

posal should be made.
THE DISTURBANCES IN SYRIA.
Mr. RICH rose to call attention to the papers respecting
the disturbances in Syria, and more especially to the tele-

graphic despatch (No. 20) of the consul at Smyrna, of the
11th July, and also to the despatch from the Admiralty
(No. 21), covering the reports of Captain Paynter, of her
Majesty's ship Exmouth, off Beyrout ; and to ask a ques-
tion thereon of the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs.
The honourable member contended that the official
despatches proved that the Druses were the ag-
gressors, and that though warned of their intentions to act
as they had done, the Turkish Government had taken no
steps to protect either the lives or property of the Chris-

tians. lie wished to ask Lord J. Russell what course the
Government proposed to adopt in this emergency ?

Sir JAMES FERGUSSON said he believed that the
Christians were originally wrong in this matter, and he was
glad that the Government were sending out a commission
to Syria to inquire into it.

Mr. DARBY GRIFFITH put a question to the Secre
tary of State for Foreign Affairs in relation to Garibaldi's
expedition, and asked for as much information as to the
views of the Government on the subject as the noble could
consistently give.
After a few words from Mr. S. FITZGERALD,
Lord 3. RUSSELL—My hon. friend has stated very ac-
curately from the papers upon the table, and from the
accounts that have appeared in the newspapers, the facts of
the massacres that have taken place in Syria. It is, there-
fore, unnecessary for me to go into any fuller detail, but
the house will naturally expect that I should state what
has been done by her Majesty's Government and the Turkish
Government in consequence of those acts, which show so
much cc aelty on the part of those tribes, and so much
negligence, to say the least, on the part of the Turkish
governors. The last accounts we have received state that
the massacres have to a great extent ceased, and that
order had been restored in Damascus. Fund Pacha had
at the date of those accounts arrived at Damascus,
and the late governor, who showed such culpable negli-
gence and appeared to be so indifferent to the mur-
ders of the Christians, never interfering at all while
those murders were going on, and who it was said might
with 100 men have stopped the disturbances—that
pacha has been sent to Constantinople to be tried. The
report we have received from Sir H. Bulwer is to the effect
that he has been sent back to Damascus where the wit-
nesses lived, but that there is no disposition, on the part of
the Porte to show any undue lenity to him, or to screen
him from justice and the severe punishment he deserved.
(Hear, hear.) The Porte had sent at different times not
only Fuad Pacha, a man of great energy, but no fewer
than 25,000 troops. It appears to be true that on the 10th
ultimo there was a sort of peace or truce signed between
the Druses and the Maronites, and one of the terms of it
was that there should be no inquiry into past transactions
on the part of the Maronites, and that all attacks
should cease. Now the hen. gentleman the mem-
ber for Ayr was perfectly justified in saying that, in re-
gard to the atrocities that had taken place, we are not
to consider the Maronite Christians as perfectly defenceless,
and not able to attack their neighbours; but, on- the con-
trary, the Maronites and Druses, being both armed, and
bitterly hostile to each other, the question was which at-
tacked the other first ? But undoubtedly great atrocities
were practised by the Druses upon the Christians, and the
lives of thousands of the latter have been sacrificed. Such
have been the proceedings on the part of the Porte ; but
now with regard to the Christian powers. When these
accounts were first received the French Government pro-
posed there should be a commission of inquiry, and that
that commission should not be limited to Turkish officials
and Turkish commissioners, but that European commis-
sioners should be appointed to act upon it. That they
should endeavour to search out and ascertain who were the
authors of those massacres, and also to suggest measures
calculated to secure peace for the future. To that proposi-
tion not only her :Majesty's 'Government and the other
powers of Europe, but the Porte also willinglyassented, and
it was determined that the commission so constituted should
issue. But on the receipt of further accounts from Damascus of
the attack upon the house of the French Consul, and upon
the convents specially protected by France, the French
Government represented to us that they did not wish to
take up any separate cause or to ask for reparation for any
separate injury or insult, but that they wished the Powers
of Europe seriously to consider whether the evil was not of
such magnitude, and whether the acts perpetrated were not
so horrible, as to form a ground for the Powers taking up
the case conjointly and endeavouring to devise some means
to prevent the recurrence of such scones. I must say the
Russian Government said at once, "We think there
should be no separate action. No one Power should act
alone, but whatever is done should be done by general
consent." The French Government teroposed that a Eu-
ropean force should be sent out at once to Syria, with a view
to strengthen the Turks, and to enable them to take effec-
tual measures for the purpose of pacification. This is
a matter, no doubt, of very great importance, which one
cannot say is without its danger, but it seems to be dic-
tated by the necessities of the ease, and her Majesty's Go-
vernment read,ly agreed to consider with the other Powers
what ought to be done on that subject. The negotiations
caused some delay, and there were questions with regard to
the form of the resolutions to which the Powers should
agree. It was finally agreed upon that, in the shape of a
protocol, provisions should be made for sending European
troops to Syria. I have received accounts from Paris at
3 o'clock this day, stating that a protocol had been signed
by the representatives of the five Powers and of the Sultan.
The nature of the protocol—or it may be the two protocols
—that have been signed will be to the following effect :
That the European Powers agree, upon the representation
of the Sultan, that he wishes for the aid of his allies
in order to restore tranquillity in Syria; that a body not
exceeding 12,000 men should be sent to Syria. The
next article provides that one-half of these troops should
be furnished by France, and that immediately after the
signing of the protocol they should be empowered to em-
bark. It is provided when they arrive there their move-
ments shall be in concert with the commissioners of the
Porte, and that the Sultan on his side shall take every
means to furnish provisions and facilities for the march of
the troops. It is also provided by the protocol that the
st-ay of the foreign troops in Syria shall not be prolonged
beyond six months, for it is believed that the object sought
to be attained can be accomplished within that time. The
right hon. gentleman (Mr. S. Fitzgerald) 'asked whether
there were representations on the part of Russia on this sub-
ject, and whether they did not cause some delay in the signing
of the protocols. With regard to the substance of this ques-
tion it certainly was the view of the Russian Government that
the five Powers, with the Sultan, should turn their serious
attention to this subject, with a view of ameliorating the
condition cf the Christians in European Turkey and Turkey
generally. It is stated that the powers acting with the
Porte remembered the engagements which were entered
into in 1856, and that they engaged with the Sultan that
measures of amelioration should be taken. I must say that
Sit H. Bulwer having sent a series of queries to the various
consuls in European Turkey received some answers show-
ing great intelligence and knowledge of that country, but
without showing that the government of the Sultan was
tyrannical or oppressive, yet also showing that there are
a number of abuses in the government difficult of remedy,
but also some easy of remedy, and therefore justifying
Russia in the prvosal she had made. But the proposal
was in the most general terms, and it will not justify any
intervention of any foreign power in any future case—all
future cases to be left to their own merits. There was
no provision for the future, and, according to the ap-
peal of her Majesty's Government, it would be
most improvident and most dangerous to make any provi-
sion for the future by which there should be any interference
with the government of the Sultan, There is besides a pro-
tocol declaring, in the terms of the protocol of 1840, that in
interfering in the affairs of Turkey none of those Powers
should seek for any additional territory, or any exclusive
influence, or any separate commercial advantage. In the
difficult and perilous condition of the Turkish empire, and
the necessity there seems to be that the rowers of Europe
should from time to time interfere in some way with the
condition of that empire, it seems to her Majesty's Govern-
ment, and I believe it is the general opinion of the Powers
of Europe that the only path of safety lies in concert and
combination between the nations, not seeking separate ad-
vantages, but endeavouring to point out to the Porte in
what manner his throne may be best made secure, and sa-
tisfaction be given to all his subjects, Christians as well as
Turks. The task is a most difficult one, and nothing but the
most disinterested conduct on the part of the Powers, as
well as the inclination of the Sultan to adopt the forms which
are necessary, will enable us to conduct it with safety. At
the same time, while advice is given and reforms are sug-
gested, it is necessary that the ultimate exe6ution of those
powers should be in the hands of officers appointed by the
Porte. If the Powers were to admit of any interference
there is this great danger always attendant upon that ques-

tion, that when there appears to be an executive interfer-
ence on the part of European Powers, the Mahommedans
consider that they on their side have been betrayed, and
the whole empire might be involved in bloodshed. That

is one great difficulty. The protocal has, however, been
signed, and when it is received I shall lay it upon the
table; but I trust to the forbearance of the house in not
asking for papers as to what has taken place. We must
endeavour, according to our views of policy, to do what
seems to us best to preserve the peace of Europe, and to
rule the state of Turkey. But until something is settled I
trust we shall not be called upon for these papers. With

respect to the question of the hon. member for Devizes, I
do not think I can add anything to what I formerly stated.
We have laid down the broad line with respect to the South
of Italy that we do not propose to interfere by force with a
view to prevent the Italians from settling their government
in their own way, and the Governments of Great Britain

and France are determined not to interfere. (Hear.)
Mr. BRIGHT said, considering the position of the noble
lord who had just sat down, he was not disposed to find
fault with the explanation he had made, or with regard to
the intervention which was about to take place. Probably
there was no intervention within our memory which could
be so well excused, because it took the aspect of the move of
a police force rather than that of any body of troops with
any special political object. But he had seen with satisfac-
tion what appeared to him the moderate and fair course
which had been pursued by different Governments in re-
gard to this very difficult question, and he hoped the course
which had been pursued by the French Government, so
far as they could judge from what they read, would be an-
_ _

other ground for lessening the distrust entertained of that
Power. The hon member for Horsham (Mr. S. Fitzgerald),
in putting his question to the noble lord, expressed his be-
.. _ _ _ _ _

lief that the noble lord was as strong as ever he was in the
intention of maintaining the integrity of the Turkish em-
pire. But he (Mr. Bright) had risen for the purpose of en-
tering his protest against any such policy. He knew some-
what of the difficulty of the position of the noble lord the
Foreign Secretary. We had been supporting the Sultan for
a considerable period, and hitherto with very indifferent
success. (Hear.) It was notorious that in the whole of that
part of Asia which had been under an Egyptian pacha there
was perfect tranquillity throughout the land, and travellers
might pass with security ; but when that authority was
withdrawn the country returned to its former state, and to
the state of anarchy in which it now was. He (Mr.
Bright) objected to this country interfering to preserve a
country which was doomed to extinction. Coming down to
the sad calamity of the Crimean war, he could say that
he expressed his disapprobation of that war at the time on
these grounds, that they were about to expend untold mil-
lions of treasure and thouiands of lives in what must be an
impossible task ; and yet they rushed into it as if the thing
was of easy achievement. He remembered that a noble
lord in the other house made a speech to show that the Ma-
hommedans were better Christians in their practices than
the Russians themselves. He remembered that the noble
lord at the head of the Government, who was not particular
in what he stated when he had an object to induce the
house to take a certain course, also made a speech, in which
he said he believed there was no country in Europe in which
improvement and improved administration had made such
progress in the last 20 years as Turkey and the Government
of Turkey. He did not assume that the noble lord did not
believe that to be true, but if he did he was the only man
in Europe at all acquainted with Turkish affairs who did
believe it. After they had made war, then, and chastised
Russia, they came now, seven years after the commence-
ment of that war, and they found Turkey in a worse condi-
tion of anarchy than when they first meddled with it. That
war, moreover, destroyed whatever Turkey had of a fleet or
army, and it left the financial condition of the countrymore
embarrassed than it was before. That war, moreover, de-
preciated and stained in the eye of the Mahommedon popu-
lation the dignity of the Sultan, which they had been ac-
customed to regard so highly ; and then we had maintained
upon the throne of Turkey a man totally incapable of doing
any single thing in the way of government. They heard a
few months back that the Sultan had issued severe orders
connected with the finances; that was all pretence, done
with the iew of sending up the price of Turkish stock in
the markets of Europe, and to force people to believe that
there was going to be some improvement ; but there was no
improvement made. They sometimes heard of a wedding
in the .Sultan's family or the families of the great pachas,
the extravagance of which could hardly be credited, but
they beard from all sides that there was growing up in that
country distrust and hatred of the Government, and that
the very men who were receiving the wages of the Sultan
would not lift their hands to stay the shedding of the
blood of our fallow-Christians, and to some extent our co-
religionists. He (Mr. Bright) was speaking lately to a gen-
tleman who knew Turkeywell, and who said that five years
would not pass over—perhaps not half that time—before
the Turks themselves would rise up and pull down a Go -
vernment which had no power or dignity. After all we had
suffered and lost in the Crimea in endeavouring to secure
Turkey, should we be led again into a struggle with any
nation in Europe with a view to maintaining this decaying
and doomed empire ? It appeared to him there were only
two modes of avoiding this : either an entire abstention of
the powers of Europe from interforing--shat might, of
course, be followed by a sanguinary struggle in European
and Asiatic Turkey—or, if the European powers could agree
as to what should be done—not for maintaining the Turkish
empire, which he held to be absolutely impossible—but if
there could be a separate government organised for Syria,
independent of Constantinople, that would be still better ;
but in the name of common sense and common humanity,
let the powers abstain from trying to permanently sustain a
Government which everybody thinks cannot be sustained.
He was most anxious that England should hold aloof from
that policy. He repeated that it was a mistake to imagine
that the pretended power of the Sultan can be supported, by
all that was to be done at the expense of the taxes raised
from the English people, and by shedding the blood of
Englishmen in endeavouring to accomplish that which was
impossible. (Hear, hear.)
Lord PALMERSTON—The hon. gentleman says that
I am not at all particular in making statements when I have
any object to gain. I think that I may return the compli-
ment—(laughter)---with this difference, that upon some
questions connected with foreign affairs I happen from a
variety of circumstances to be rathcr better informed than
the hon. gentleman, and more especially with respect to this
question of Syria. I take leave to say that with respect
to this question I derive my information from a long super-
intendence of the Foreign department, whilst the hon.
member derives his from persons with whom he has come
in contact, who from their race and prejudices are not the
most trustworthy advisers on the matters to which he had
referred. The hon. member says that I stated on a former
occasion that no country in Europe in the same space of time
has made the same progress that the Turkish empire had
done since the death of the Sultan Mahmoud. I repeat
that assertion with the utmost deliberation, and with the
most perfect knowledge of what I am saying. (Hear, hear.)
I am sure that anyone who has any knowledge of the state of
things in Turkey will confirm this assertion I have just made
—anyone who speaks impartially, free from prejudices, and
with large and enlightened views. (Cheers ,and laughter.)
I give every credit to the hon. member for perfect sincerity,
but I must say that he has taken a very limited view of the
question on which he has been speaking. It is easy to say
that the Turkish Empire will fall to pieces, snd that before
this takes place you must arrange what you will do witb the
fragments. If the foreign powers were to adopt the course
which the hon. gentleman suggests, and arrange before-
hand what they will do with the fragments of the Turkish
empire, it is not very likely that after such a partition it
would last very much longer. (Hear, hear.) Although there
is an immense progress to be made to bring Turkey up to
the pointof any European nation, and although in looking at
Turkey we are too apt to think upon what remains to be
done, rather than on what has been accomplished, still my
own opinion is that if the Turkish empire is left to itself,
free from foreign interference, except by' good advice and
support, it will not fall to pieces so soon as the hon. member
fancies. (Cheers.) It is easy to say, you must make some pre-
parations for the fall of Turkey, but has the hon. member
ever considered what the practical effect will be on the ba-
lance of power in Europe, if that arrangement which he so
earnestly advocates, were to be made ? In this respect,
I must say that the honourable member takes a very li-
mited view. He sees only the evils of the present day, and
entirely shuts his eyes to the greater and more serious
evils which must result from the policy which he recom-
mends. This is a question of very great importance, and it
cannot be discussed on the motion for adjournment until
Monday, and I only protest against the easy adoption of the
maxims and plicy of the hon. member, in which I beg to
assure him there are involved very grave and serious con-
sequences, which must infallibly result from the course of
policy which he urges. (Hear.)
The subject then dropped.
SUPERANNUATION OF DOCKYARD
LABOURERS.

Sir F. BARING asked the Secretary of the Admiralty
what course the Admiralty intend to pursue respecting the
superannuation of the dockyard labourers on the establish-
ment, and called the attention of the house to their case.
Lord C. FAGET said this matter was fully argued when
the Superannuation Act was before the house, and when
the act passed the late Treasury was asked whether estab-
lished labourers were to be entitled to a pension from the
superannuation fund ; the Treasury did not reply to the
question, and the present Treasury sent to the Admiralty
to give their opinion as to whether this class of labourers
was entitled to a superannuation allowance. The Admi-
ralty thought not, and if there was any one to blame it was
the late Government in consequence of the ambiguous way
in which the act was worded.
CHINESE INDEMNITY.
Mr. GREGSON asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer
if the two millions of taels on account of losses sustained
by British subjects, and tho further sum of two millions of
taels on account of the expenses of the war, as stipulated
for by the treaty of Tien-sin, was in the course of ay mn t •
e
and called the attention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer
to the increased ability of China to pay a pecuniary indem-
nity. He wished to know whether there was any arrange-
ment for compensating British subjects for their losses in
China.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said no
portion of the money had been paid. The French had,
however, received between £300,000 and £400,000. Their
treaty, however, stipulated for a certain time and place a