The Sun.
London, England, 1856-06-18 00:00:00

NATIONAL EDUCATION IN IRELAND.

Mr. WALPOLE—Sir, in pursuance of notice, I now
beg leave to move an address to the Crown, which I feel
presents so strong a claim to the consideration of the
house—so just and reasonable a claim—l might almost
say a claim which I believe to be so irresistible, that I
am sure the attention of the house will be granted to me
for a short time while I state the facts upon which I found
it. Now, the foundation upon which I intend to rest this
claim is, that where you make large public grants for
great national purposes, those grants must come out of
the general taxation of the country, and that it is neither
just nor reasonable to preclude any person or set of peo-
ple from receiving some portion of those grants which
it is intended to apply to those great national purposes.
(Hear.) This is, however, what has taken place with
regard to the grant made for the purpose of esta-
blishing and promoting the system of national educa-
tion in Ireland. (Hear, hear.) There is, sir, one class of
people, and one only—l believe one only—precluded
from receiving any portion of that grant. For that class
of people I now appeal—and I appeal with confidence—
to the houae. (Hear.) In considering the justice of this,
I think it my first duty to inquire what aro the general
views entertained by this house, and what are the prin-
ciples upon which you are prepared to aot. (Hear.) Those
views and those principles have been distinctly enunci
ated and acted upon on former occasions; and it is in ac-
cordance with those views and in furtherance of those
principles that I shall press the claim which I now make.
(Hear.) I am not now going to enter upon matters of
controversy. (Hear.) That I wish to be plainly and dis-
tinctly understood. I shall rest my case on this, and
this only—namely, that the points on which this house
have acted justify me in asking you to assent to the re-
solution which Ism about to move. (Hear, and cheers.)
Now, allow me to ask, what are the points on which
this house have agreed ? I take it that, in the first
place, we are agreed that we must mainly depend in
promoting the education of the peop'e upon the volun-
tary eff'',V, of different religious 84.eieties, and that at
the same time we must aid those sfforts by large contri-
butions from the public funds. (Cheers.) You thus put
into operation two agencies_private benevolence and
public grants. These private efforts, without the assist-
ance of public grants to mien works as these, would soon
fall down and be overwhelmed—(c'leers)—but, sir, hav-
ing the grants, you secure the influence which private
activity is eine to exercise, and which assists very con-
siderably in the promotion of the object which you have
in view. (Hear) Now, in the case which I have to
submit to the house the private efforts made by one
class of [moiety are totally unaided by the public
grant, though that public grant is contributed to
every other class in society. (Cries of " Hear.")
If your principles be sound and just, as I be-
lieve tsem to be, then unless you can show
some strong countervailing claim, you ought to ac-
quiesce in and accede to my motion. Now, the second
point which I think we are agreed on is this—that as
you must aid those voluntary efforts by contributions
from public grants, which come from the taxation of the
country, you are bound to expend the funds with an
even hand. You ought not to show any partiality or
favour ; you should give to all, or you should give to
none. (Hear, hear.) But in this case you do not give to
all ; but you give to all except one class. Therefore
your principle is not acted on. The third question on
which I think we agree, and it is the last, is, that educa-
tion to be worth aeything must be based upon religion.
That is the principle upon which you have acted, and
rightly. In aoting on that principle great difficulties have
arisen, as we know from discussions which have taken
place in this house. Your desire is to avoid forcing on any
children any dogmatic teaching, or any form of catechism,
or creed which might militate against the couscienticw.

onvictions, or the creed of their parents. If lam right
in thus reasoning, and the right hon. gentle Man opposite
is, I am sure, following me, you have the religious ele-
ment to preserve, and there is the religious difficulty to be
avoided. The religious element you have preserved by
giving your pant to religions bodies only, and the reli-
gious difficulty you have avoided by extending those
grants to every one of the religious bodies without excep-
tion, for if you make an exception, thenthere is one class
of people who may be exposed to a system of education
in which the parents do not agree, since you give schools
to which the children of the other classes may go and be
educated in their own religion. These are the great prin-
ciples on which yort have acted—encouragement to edu-
cation—encouragement to private efforts—large contri-
butions fromthe public funds to assist those efforts—no
compulsion on any children to attend any public school,
and no exclusion of anyreligious sect from aparticipation
in those grants. Those principles are essentially just.
They are so just that I cannot conceive how you can
still withhold the application of them from any class of
people— only one class of people, and that class, I regret
to say it, the members of a portion of the United Church
of England and Ireland. (Cheers.) And, why do you
withhold any portion of the education grant from that
class of people f It is net because they are not willing
to assist you in promoting the education of the people,
because no class of men are more willing to promote its
object than the Irish clergy. (Hear.) It is not because
they refuse to submit to your religious inspection. That
they are willing to accede to as soon as you give them a
portion of the funds. (Hear.) Neither is it because they
wish to force children to agree to their formula or their
Creed ; for by the rules of the Church Education Society,
not one of thode formulas shall be imposed on any
child whose parents object. (Hear, hear.) Then why
do you refuse ? I think the members of this house
will blush while they hear it. Because they
require—conscientiously require—in carrying out the
great purposes of education, that the Scriptures shall not
be excluded from those schools. I cannot believe that
such a system will be long permitted. I appeal to you
whether it is just ? I appeal to you whether it is consis-
tent with your own principle of action? I appeal to Eng-
lishmen to say, would they allow such a system to pre.
Tail in England? If not, then I ask you whether y
will permit it to continue in Ireland, if you can meet the
difficulties which have been urged? This condition to pre-
clude the schools to which I refer from any participati
in this grant is so harassing, so unjust, and so unreason-
able, that if it ware not for one reason which I have of en
heard addressed to this house I do not believe there could
be a single objection to the resolution which I intend to
propose. But I have heard, however, one argument urgt d
.agaiest what I ask for, which, if true, is a very sound one.
The objection is that what I ask for would destroy
this combined system of education in Ireland, which yen
have taken so much pains to establish. Now, I shall
presently show you how this combined system of edu-
cation of which you are talking, does not exist in those
vested and non-vested schools to which you lend your
aid ; but that in many cases the system is almost a sepa-
rate one ; and I shall further show you that in those
schools to which I ask you to lend the aid of a participa-
tion in the grant, the system of combined edbeation is
carried on, and they in fact carry out your wishes with
reference to a combined system of education. Without
desiring unnecessarily to occupy the time of the house,
I feel that it will be necessary for me to make a very
brief review of the progress of the system of national
education in Ireland. (Hear, hear.) The present
system of national education was established in 1830
as a substitute for a system that had prevailed be-
fore in what were called the Kildare-place schools.
The object of that system, as stated by those who are
its authors, by those who supported it, and by those
who are familiar and acquainted with it, was to give the
benefits of education as extensively as possible to the peer
of Ireland. That was the first objee, and, consistently
with that, to unite as much as possible the children of dif-
ferent religious creeds in the same school without any dis-
turbance of their religious principles. (Hear.) Now these
national schools were, as I said before, a substitute for the
Kildare-place schools; and the reason why they were sub-
stituted for the Kildare-place schools—the reason why the
latter were superseded was this—that in those schools,
which extended throughout the length and breadth of Ire•
land, which were, in fact, universally spread through mt
the country, .here was a preliminary condition that the
Scriptures should be read. (Hear, hear.) Well, objections
were taken to that condition on the part of Roman Ca-
tholics. They objected to it on the principles of their
own Church which does not permit the study of the
Scriptures without the assistance of their clerical supe-
riors, It was to satisfy the conscientious opinions of the
Roman Catholics that the system was altered by the in.
troduction of the present system in this way—by exclud
ing from the schools the Holy Bible—the free use of
the Holy Bible. (Hear.) In acceding, however, to the
conscientious convictions of the Roman Catholics, which
would not admit of the frets use of the Scriptures in the
schools to which their children were sent, you went into
the opposite extrerne—(hear)—for neither the Presby
terian, nor the Wesleyan, nor the members of our own
Church would assent to the rule that the Scriptures
should not be admitted into their schools. (Hear.) Now
observe, to satisfy the conscientious convictions of the
Roman Catholic, you must exclude the Scriptures ; and
to meet the objections taken by the Presbyterians and
the Protestants, you have agreed to admit the Scrip-
tures into the schools, thus materially altering the
fundamental principles upon which this system was
adopted. (Hear, hear.) Several great changes have
taken place in that system, and the only change which
I am asking of the house is onec irresponding—l might
almost say identical—with the themes which you have
adopted in favour of other classes. (Hear, hear.) When
the system was first established, the great object being
joint-instruction, Lord Derby, then Lord Stanley,
brought forward the only means by which that object
could be accomplished. He foresaw that if you were to
have a real bona file joint instruction you must have
joint management ; and, accordingly, you will find in
his celebrated letter to the Duke of Leinster this state-
ment—that inasmuch as the great object was to unite
the children of different denominations together (these
are nearly the words of his letter), and inasmuch as
that would mainly depend on a joint application for the
grant, and a joint management, he !required, as a fun-
damental rule, one of these three things :—Either the
application was to come from the Protestant and the
Roman Catholic clergymen of the parish, cr it was
to come from the clergy of one denomination and the
parishioners of another ; or it was to come from the pa-
rishioners and two denominations. Now, the object of
Lord Derby was exactly what I have stated—to insure
joint management, bringing with it joint instruction cor
Repent on a joint application for the grant. Here, how-
ever, commenced your first step, and if the house will
permit me to say so, I believe I am stating nothing but
what I can prove out of those two great volumes which
contain the proceedings on the inquiry into the system
before a committee of the House of Lords. (Hear.) The
Presbyterians objected to this joint application ; they
insisted that they were entitled to a portion of the grant
on individual application. Thus the fundamental prin-
ciple was coming to an end. (Hear.) The Presbyterians
were authorised to apply for a grant without being
joined by any other denomination. The result has been,
in the words of Mr. Cross, the able secretary of the
National Board, that the applications are now, and have
for a long time been, coming from one denomination of
Christians • and further, in the words of Mr. Cross,
the pre-condition to which I have adverted as the fun-
damental rule of the system has become a dead letter.
(Cheers.) Now, that was the first change. The second
great change you made has an immediate bearing on the
motion now before the house. (Hear.) When the sys-
tem was originally established, it was intended essentially
for the purpose of having a combined system of secular
instruction, with a separate religious education, to be
given at a distinct hour. And it was also deemed al
essential rule—as necessary as that to which I have just
referred—that all national schools should be vested in
the National Board, and that they should go by the
Dame of "vested schools." Now the Presbyterians again
objected. lam quoting the evidence of Mr. Cooke and
Dr. Henry. They said, "If we have schools, we have
a right to have them under our own power." That ob-
jection was attended to, and the schools, instead of
being vested schools, as they were intended to be, were
allowed to become what are now called "non-vested
schools." (Hear, hear.) Instead of being a system of
combined instruction, through the medium of schools
vested in the board, and carried on by a grant obtained
on joint application, the system has become one of "non-
vested schools" carried on by a grant obtained on the ap-
plication of a single individual or a separate denomina-
tion. To such an extent has this been the case that out
of 5000 schools, or nearly that number, which are men-
tioned in those two great volumes, only 1,600 are vested
schools ; the renaainderbeing non-vested schools. (Hear.)
Now what has been the c msequence of that ? Why, that
You have no system of combined education now in opera-
tion. That system is entirely done away with is those
schools. (1-leanastadheemar..) That has been effected by
that alteration
could not, and wouldu""ur of the Presbyterians, who
schools snhjee)not., consent to have their
tedxotnuesc,tnih!,lsrolling power of the board.
• (Hear, hear,
wiisilthe very hinge of the
question, perhapi the house
uponpiatrd ni me for being
specifidin my observations
for referring
to evidence that will demonstrate' andtlse truth of my
assertion. The first evidence to which I shall refer in
support of the representation that the system of combined
education has been done away with by thin concession
to the Presbyterians is that of Archdeacon Stoptoerndh.a.
t 1 e s hee
well-known gentleman. Although this very rev. g
man was very averse to the national system at
firs`,
- has since become one of its stoutest advocates and
fore, when citing his authority, I am nut quoting from
a witness partial in my own case. In pages 4,585 and
4,588 of the blue books I find these questions put to
Archdeacon Stopford, and the following answers given
by him in reply thereto :
" You are aware that the system as originally contem-
plated comprised only vested schools? —I am.
" You are aware that subsequently the non-vested sys-
tem was introduced and added to the other ! —Yes.

bular statement, which furnished the committee with
the amplest materials for judging of those schools which
were under joint management, and those which were
under separate management ; and from which they could
see at a glance whether the schools- bad separate or
united education. Speaking then of Roman Catholic
and Protestant schools, how many do you think were
under joint management? Why, there were 4,600
schools in all, and of these only 48 were under joint
management. Lord Derby asked question 120 :
"De I rightly understand the returns you have now
read as showing that the whole number of schools under
joint management is only 43 of persons of different religi-
ous denominations?" The answer is that "up to the date
specified in these returns there are very few schools under
joint management, and I should add, as far as my experi-
ence goes, those under joint management have given the
committee more trouble than any others, for they have
found it very difficult to unite parties of various religious
opinions."
So that here you have not only testimony to the effect
.that the combined system is not carried on, but you
have the secretary himself saying, the greatest difficulty
we have experienced is, attempting that which we know
to be impossible in England, and which of course would
be impossible in Ireland. Now we have often bad dis-
cussions in this house upon the subject before, and it
has often been attempted to obtain official and accurate
information as to whether this system was separate or
waited, but without avail. A return was moved for in
the House of Lords in the year 1835, 20 years ago, in
order to have that information furnished to Parliament ;
but the answer to the motion was that it would be con-
trary to the spirit of the instructions given to the board
to furnish it ; and from that time down to the time when
Lord Eglinton acquired the information as Lord-Lieu-
tenant of Ireland, the return was never furnished. It was
at length produced, however and may be found in the
appendix to these volumes. It shows that in three out
of the four provinces of Ireland there is no such thing
as united education. In Connaught the proportion of
Roman Catholic to Protestant children in the national
schools is as 31 to 1 ; in Leinster as 37 to 1 ; and in
Munster as 90 odd to 1. This is a return which has been
furnished by your own officers, and yet we are told that
We are doing injustice to the clergy of Ireland by dis-
turbing the combined system. I have poitted out two
great changes in the fundamental rules of this system
which you have made, and rightly, to carry on education
r satisfy the conscientious convictions of others. But are
these the only changes you have made ? No. The Pres-
byterians had a third objection. They objected to the
choice of the books, whether secular or religious, beirg
under the control of the board; They objected also that
they had not the right of using the Holy Scriptures in
their schools. What was the answer given to these objec-
tions ? It was this, that the Presbyterians should In their
schools have the power, subject of course to information
being given to the board and to the non alteration of
their rules afterwards, of choosing the ;books they
wished to lye ; and with regard to ,the Scrip-
tural part of the question—l am now citing the evidence
of Dr. Cooke—that they ehould begin their school busi-
ness w:th preyer, and use the Scrii tires and extracts
from Scripture in school hours. That i 3 in the evidence
of Dr. Cooke. My right hon. friend (Mr. Horonan) looks
astonished, and well he may ; but I am so thoroughly
convinced that I am right, that I do not scruple to give
you every argument you can urge against lie. The only
answer you can give, to show that this is a distinction
from the case to which I have adverted is, that whilst
it is true the Presbyterians say they use the Scriptures
in their schools, yet they do not compel any child to
read theni. Yes, that is the distinction made, and the
argument against me and those who advocate the same
cause that in the Church schools we require as a sine
qua non that the Scriptures should be read. Nuw, I meet
that argument by this observation. If these were the
only schools in Ireland which, like the Kildare-p'ace
schools, required the Scriptures to be read in every one
of them, and by every child, then your argument ought
to prevail; but, inasmuch as every other denomination of
Chrstiene have got their own schools—inasmuch as the
Chur_h merely wishes to educate her children according
to her own views, and in her own way, not a single child
who objects to that rule need go to the school, cenee-
quently the objection fal:s to the ground. I have pointed
out to you the changes you have made in this system.
But you say that you cannot accede to my application,
because it would have the effect of deetroyieg the cem •
bided system of education in Ireland. I have told you
that it would do no such thing. But where, I ask, is the
combined system ? I will tell you where it is. It is in
the Church Elucatiou Society. The very schools you
neglect are the schools which carry into effect your own
principles, and that much better than your own schools.
(Cheers.) What testimony you require as to that you
may find at page 6,822, where the numbers of Dissenters,
Church children, and Roman Catholic children who have
been in the Church schools from 1848 until 1853 are
set forth. And here, again, I will give you . the benefit
of answers which you may contend go against my own
case. (The right hon. gentleman here read again from
the secretary's examination portions of evidence to the
,effect that the number of Roman Catholic children at-
tending schools was diminishing ; that the attendance of
those children was at its highest point in Use year 1848,
when there were of Church children 58,000, of Dissen-
ters 15,000, and Roman Catholics 46,000 ; that in 1849
there were 58,000 Church children, 15,000 Dissenters,
and 37,000 Roman Catholics ; in 1850, 60,000 Church
children, 15,000 Dissenters, and 33,000 Roman Catho-
lics ; in 1851, 59,000 Church children, 14,000 Dissen-
ters, land 29,000 R )man Catholics ; in 1852, 61,000
Church children, 15.000 Dissenters, and 28,000 Roman
Catholics ; and in 1853, 61,000 Church children, 15,000
Dissenters, and 22.000 Roman Catholics.) Now it is
perfectly true that the proportion of Roman
,Catholic is
smaller in 1853 than in 1848—(hear, hear, from an
Irish member)—but as the hon. member evidently at-
taches weight to the fact, perhaps he will allow me to
read the next question and answer in order to explain it.
(Here the right hon. gentleman read another extract for
the purpose of showing that the diminution in the Ro-
man Catholic attendance was in some degree, owing to
the withdrawal of schools from connection with the
Church Education Society for the purpose of establishing
schools of an entirely missionary character in the west
of Ireland.) This shows undoubtedly a diminution of
Roman Catholics in proportion to Protestants on a com-
parison of the years 1848 and 1853 ; and you will bear
in mind the reason for that difference when the argument
is put forward, that the teaching of the Scriptures is with
a view to proselytising Roman Catholics, and that the
priests would not allow the children to go to the schools
on that account ; moreover, that where the schools are
merely intended for missionary or proselytising pur-
poses, the children are withdrawn from the Church Edu-
cation Society. I said, however, that I would show you
that the combined system does exist in the. Church
schools and not in the national schools ; and in proof
of this I turn to evidence that cannot be doubted--
the evidence of the Right Hon. Alexander MgDonnell,
the chief paid commissioner of education in Ire-
land. Observe what he says on the subject. He is
asked, question 1920. (The right hon. gentleman then
read an extract from the evidence of Mr. M`Donnell, to
the effect that the attendance at the Church Education
Society's schools was very large ; and that the national
system had not attained any great degree of success with
regard to providing a united or combined system of educa-
tion.) I think, then, I have proved in the plainest possible
manner that to talk of supporting the combined system of
education as a reason for refusing the address I am about
to move is, I might almost say, absurd. (Cheers.) The
combined system does not exist in the national non-vested
schools. It does exist in the Church schools, yet it
is to those schools you are denying any portion of the
educational grant. I will now call the attention of the
house to the distinct principle upon which, I think,
it ought to sonde to my motion. I have shown to you
that the Kildare-place schools were entirely done away
with, and the present system established, out of re-
gard to the conscientious convictions of the Roman
Catholics. I have shown you that that system when so
established was materially relaxed in its fundamental
rules out of-a proper regard to theconscientious convictions
of the Presbyterians. And to neither Presbyterians nor
Roman Catholics do I grudge the advantages they enjoy.
(Cheers.) On the contrary, I hope they will be continued
to them. (Hear.) Bat this Ido say, that in carrying on
this great work of education, whilst you pay respect, and
properly pay respect, to the conscientious convictions of
our Roman Catholic fellow-subjects, you ought to pay the
same respect to the conscientious oonvictions of the mem-
bers of the Protestant Church in Ireland—(cheers)--and
that, having relaxed your system to overcome the objec-
tions of Presbyterians and Roman Catholics, it is not very
wise, even if it were just, to refuse to attend to the rea-
sonable objections, equally conscientious, which are en-
tertained by the members of your own Church. (Loud
cheers.) You have thus accommodated your system to
meat the objections of those from whom in religion you
differ, whilst you will not accommodate it, even in the
smallest degree, to gratify the honourable, the sincere, the
praiseworthy convictions of those with whom you agree.
I am as confident as that I stand here, that whether you
accede to or refuse my request now, the time must come
when you will certainly have to comply with it. (Cheers.)
And now having said this much upon the great alterations
you have made in your system, it is but reasonable that we
should ask ourselves for what purpose you are now refus-
ing any portion of this grant to the members of your own
Church? (Hear, hear.) It. is right that I should ask my-
self this question, and that every member of Parliament
should ask himself the question—why are the members of
the Established Church alone to be put, as it were, under
a ban of exclusion? Have they done anything that disen-
titles them to your favour and regard ? Have they
done anything that should subject them to coldness
and neglect ? Sir, I believe there is no body of
men in the kingdom who are more conscientiously
desirous of promoting popular education than the Irish
clergy. (Cheers.) They have been discouraged and they
have been discountenanced by the Government and by Par-
liament (hear, hear)—but in spite of that discouragern• nt
and in spite of that discountenance they have their
schools in many parts of the country. (Cheers.) I un-
!,erst_a_nd they have upwards of 1800 schools, and upwards
iOO 000 children are being educated at this moment ;
tthatete.h;ristyria
na :a expendednthe aitmemucpht
tomoney raised by volun-
oleectaccomplish: this great
t the annual cost of these schools is
tshysetseemciorfeettetaatnio4lAsbove all, they are promoting a united
nearly 100,0901.
so excellentlti rtPl'ulaneg
more than you yourselves ; and under
aome.. I ask you whether you can longer
refuse to do
oalf willwasoiriks
assisting
tell g
Ty
hotheu
re
emw what
ne by and bye—for tho
mcarry-
inganyna,:2tom.otord?,,, otfhialtealinnlagc;viptleirentkines
out
question cannot hat.
twrueh; obl)hnnascveewohfhiytt hh eeyroctuoormbb:eirnue ell ts
yasi tl ey m°: vuelp opposed
e( l
om anyin
attentiont idoitnor
changed their views; especi
the evidence of a gentleman, the brother of a former mem-
ber of this house, and who was much respected in
mean Mr. Buxton. He went to Ireland for the purpose of
(If
inquirier, into the subject himself; and he went—with
an
unprejudiced mind ought I to say? No, hat.t with a prejn-
diced mind, for he was of opinion that would be dan-
gerous to disturb the combined system. He returned, how-
ever, with a thoroughly different opinion, gave his evidence
before the House of Lords to that effect, and has Since pub.
liehed a pamphlet oa the subject, in which ho declares
that he thinks you must give some portion of the grant to
the members of the Church in Ireland. Turn to questions
from 4119 to 4435, and you will find what I state to be
strictly correct, He is asked to state to the committee
the extent of the modification which he would room:

" 3. That the adoption of the rul s as to religious instruc-
tion in free or vested schools be earnestly recommended to pa-
trons of non-vested schools receiving aid from the board."
" 4. That the board be authorised, if they shall think fit,
to grant similar advantages to those enjoyed by the non-
vested schools to any schools now existing or hereafter to bo
built, whatever their regulations as to religious instruction,
the patrons of which shall be willing to place them in connec-
tion with the board, and to receive officially the visits of the
Government inspectors."

Now, these two resolutions are embodied, in fact, with
the condition annexed, to which I will presently refer, in
the address lam about to ask the house to agree to. Lord
Granville also proposed a set of resolutions, which, to a
certain extent, were in conformity with those of Lord
Derby. But those resolutions have been subsequently with-
drawn, and in the room of them the noble lord has pre-
pared others which do not mention the point he proposed
to deal with in the first sit of resolutions he submitted to
the committee. The nature of the first set of resolutions
we can only ascertain through the instrumentality of a
member of the committee, who has published them to the
world, and, as far as I can learn, the accuracy of the ver-
sion so published has never yet been contradicted. I be-
lieve, it, indeed, to be a cDrrect representation of what the
noble lord proposed; and, as such, I will read it to the
house. I take it from the charge of the Bishop of Ossory—
" He (Lord Granville) suggested, as what appeared to be
the best plan for securing both objects, that church education
schools should receive grants of school books and school re-
quisites from the National Board; and that the benefit of in-
spection by the officer of the board, and of access to the train-
ing school should also be extended to them. He added, how-
• ier, that Government would only be prepared to act on these
suggestions if they were recommended by a clear majority of
the committee, and also accompanied by a recommendation
that under no circumstances should a grant in money be made
to any school, either for building or for the teacher's salary,
unless it were conducted strictly in accordance with the rules
of the national system."

The difference between Lord Derby's and Lord Granvill's
plans is plain and simple • Lord Derby would give pay-
ment to the master, as well as books and other requisites;
Lord Granville would give only books' buildings, and in-
spection. He adds that the Government could only act on
this suggestion if it was recommended by the majority of
the houses. I have reason to believe that this resolution
was not proposed, because the Government did not think
they had a clear majority. The difference between Lord
Derby's and Lord Granville's propositions is only in de-
gree, not, in principle. I save since had some conversation
with Lord Derby, and I know he concurs in the resolution
now; that he thinks it a reasonable modification of the
system, to meet a just demand. But he says, also, that he
thiuks it would bps reasonab'e to annex a condition to the
grant—namely, to make it more or less dependent upon
the progress of the schools. The Bishop of Ossory has
stated that the whole difference between Lord Derby and
Lord Granville is, that Lord Derby would give salary as
well as buildings and boAs ; while Lord Granville would
give buildings, books, and inspection. The only difference,
therefore, is, that Lord Dells)/ would give money grants.
That is, however, the object of my motion ; which is for
this house to address her Nl.,jesty to enable the members
of the United Church of England and Ireland to obtain
from the public funds some aid in furtherance of that g od
world` which they are carrying out more in consonance
with our desire than the national system is doing. I will
nut say any more. I will not spoil this plain statement
by tiling to add anything further to it in the way of illus-
tration or recommendation. I know that the House of
Commons, when it sees its way, will do an act of justice.
I believe the power of...acting justly is now in our hands,
as well as the opportunity. And, believing that, I shall
therefOre simply put my motion. (Cheers.) The right
hon. gentleman then moved " That an humble address be
presented to her Majesty, praying that her Majesty will be
graciously pleased to direct that such modifications may
he made in the rules of Vie national system of education
na Ireland as will extend the advantages now enjoyed by
non•vosted :schools to any other than 'rooted aohools now

Mr. HORSMAN said that the proposition of his right
hon. friend opposite had been brought forward with so
much ability that it was almost difficult for the house to
resist it. But he felt that there was so much difference,
both in principle and policy, between the views of the Go-
vernment and those of the right hon. gentleman, and the
consequences of adopting those last views would be so dire
estrous, that he should be disappointed if he failed to con-
vince the house that it would be doing an act of injustice
to Ireland if it did not reject the motion. The right hon.
gentleman had said that the present system had failed in
Ireland. He (Mr. Horsman) trusted that he should be
able to show the contrary. The right hon. gentleman had
said the system was not an united system. He (Mr.
Horsmar) would show that it was perfectly united. The
right hon. gentleman had said that the motion would lead
to harmony. He should show that it would lead to dis-
cord. The right hon, gentleman said that his measure
only was permissive in allowing the reading of the Bible to
Protestants. He should show that it Made the reading of
the Bible obligatory on all. The right hon. gentleman had
cited authorities to show that they ought to abandon the
principle on which they had hitherto acted. He should
cite authorities to show that that system ought not to be
relaxed, and that it was their duty as well as their policy
to keep it up. He perfectly agreed with those who said
that religion should be the basis of education. But he
differed entirely from those who sail that religion did not
enter largely into the system of instruction pursued in
the national schools. The Bishops of Oxford, of Dine
ham, of London, and of Carlisle, had all taken up the
principles of religions teaching in their schools, and had
given them their sanction. The light honourable gen
tleman had said that the difficulty was as to the funda-
mental principle of national education, and those princi-
ples were with respect to schools of vested and non-vested
rights, and the rights to be allowed to the patrons of those
schools. Now he (Mr. Horsman) was not accustomed to
consider these as fundamental principles. To prove this
he would go further back, and show what their past expe-
rience had bejn, acknowledged that the education of the
Irish people was a nationel concern, and with this view
they bad legislated for many ages. Acts of Parliament
bad been passed on the principle which then prevailed,
that the ignorance of the Irish people was to be attributed
to their religion, and that the conversion of the people was
a necessary preliminary to their education, so much so,
that by act of Parliament the Roman Catholic clergy were
prohibited under severe penalties from imparting instruc-
tion to the people. The result was, that the Irish people
were in a lamentable state • that before the present cen-
tury the schools were noted for disloyalty and for every
kind of vice ; so that royal commissions and parliamentary
committees were appointed one after the other to investi-
gate the cause, and to suggest remedies. All these came to
the same conch +ion, that there had been no attempt to ex-
tirpate ignorance from Ireland, bat to promote prose-
lytism, and for that reason the people of Ireland stood
aloof from the school. He begged the house to see how
slowly, yet how strongly, the conviction on this point had
been expressed. A royal commission had been issued in
1806, which had made its final report in 1812. It consist d
of tie Archbishop of Armagh, the Archbishop of Cashel,
.air. Corrie, the Chancellor of the Irish Exchequer, Dr.
Elric, the president of Trinity College, Richard Lovell
Edgeworth, and ono or two others. Irdl these, with the ex-
ception of Mr. Edgeworth, were opposed to all concession
to the Roman Catholic claims. There were two archbishops
and one bishop among them. Yet, in 1812, long before any
concession to the Roman Catholic claims was ever dreamt of,
the commission reported that no plan of education could be
carried into operation, unless its leading principle was not to
attempt to influence or distill') the peculiar religious tenets
of any part of the population. Here then was the ac-
knowledgment that the base of all education should be not
to influence or disturb religious opinions. The second
royal commission was issued in 1821. It was unanimous
in its report, which said that iu a country where such ma-
terial differences in religion existed, schools should be
established free from all suspicion of interference with
religious feeling. The committee of the House of Com-
mons was appointed in 818, and in its report it says, that
no system of education could be expedient, if it was calcu-
lated to influence or disturb the peculiar religious tenets
of any part of the population. The committee then
adopted the very words used by the first royal commission.
In 1830 another parliamentary committee was appointed.
That committee recommended that no farther time should
be lost in giving the public the benefit of the experience
and the recommendations of the commission of 1806 and
the committee of 1828. It desired that no time should be
lost in giving effect to the principle that non-interference
with religions views was the only one to insure success in
the education of Ireland. Were they, then, prepared to
say that all these opinions were wrong ? because if they
did not, they would not agree to the motion of his right
hon. friend ; for if they were to do so, they would adopt
the principle that it was right and advisable to interfere
with the religious opinions of the people. The right hon.
gentleman had referred to the Kildare-street Society.
Ehat society had adopted the words of the committee of
1812, not to interfere with the religious tenets of any part
of the population. Yet that society had failed, because it
eoul.l not acquire the confidence of the people, when
that confidence was necessary to its success. Yet all
the difference between the Kildare-street Society and
the Church Aducation Society, as far as the confidence
of the public was concerned, was to the advantage of
the former. The, former authorised no interference
with religious opinion, the latter interfered with reli-
gious opinions. The former had a mixed board, composed
of members of all denominations; the latter had a board
composed solely of members of the Church of England.
The school teachers. of one were of all denominations,
while the school teachers of the other belonged exclusively
to the Church. The Kildare-street Soolety authorised the
Douai version of the Bible without note or comment—the
Church Education Society permitted none but the autho-
rised version. The Kildare-street Society did not allow
the formulary or catechism of the English Church—the
Church Educ. ti ,n Society allowed both the formulary and
the cateehi m. So that as far as confidence was concerned,
that coefidence was more likely to be secured by the Kil-
cl .I,re-street Society. Yet that society had completely
failed. It had been found by the committee that in the
sch sole of the Church Education Society there were 400,000
children, of whom 80,000 were Roman Catholics, while in
the Kildare-street schools there were 39,000 Roman Catho-
lics to 29,000 Protestants, and this in a population almost
entirely Catholics. The Kildare-street Society was given
up, and the Government found it necessary, in 1830, to
establish a new system. Lord Stanley on that occasion
acted, not with any foresight of what the future condition
of Ireland was likely to be, but in accordance with the re-
port of the commissioners, whose very words Lord Stanley
adopted in his letter to the Duke of Lehister, in which he
said that the system they then adopted was that of no
interference with any religious opinions. Lord Stanley then
proceeds to the system of the report of 1812, which recom-
mends the banishment of even the suspicion of proselytism.
This Lord Stanley further inferred in his answer to the
Synod of Ulster, and says, that there never was any ob-
jection to religions teaching in specified hours, but those
hours must be specified to avoid any suspicion on the
part of the Roman Catholics. His opinions seem
to have gathered strength as he proceeded. He goes on,
in a letter to the Dean of St. Patrick, to show that the
object was to give to the Roman Catholics as extensive
a knowledge of Scripture as was permitted by the reli-
gious circumstances, by means of a combined literary
and a separate religious instruction. The system of Lord
Stanley encountered great apposition at the outset—all the
clergy of the Established Church opposed it—the Presby-
terians only gave their adhesion in 1840 the Roman
Catholics still later, while a certain part of the
Established Church still, as it appeared, held out against
it. Ha did not understand his right honourable friend to
say that the Roman Catholics and the Presbyterians had
refused to avail themselves of the system, but that one
section of the Established Church had refused to avail,
themselves of it ; and he had asked whet crime they had
committed that they should be thus excluded from educa-
tion. The answer to this was that the Government estab;
lished a system which had been welcomed by all others,
and it was their own refusal, in accsrdence with a conten-
tious spirit, which deprived them of the means of availing
themselves of it. It appeared that when the system was
established in 1833 there were 779 schools, while in 1852
there were 5,178 schools with 551,128 scholars. So suc-
cessfully had the system worked that two millions and a
half of children had passed through the schools without an
attempt at proselytising them. No single complaint had
been made on this head, and the system had gone on until
it was received by nine-tenths of the population of Ireland.
The late census returns showed that wherever the system
most prevailed there education was at its height: 11 ap-
peared that Ulster stood the highest on the list, where
st
theerr e
and w e r
1e514,18y7,5es
oc
nho o
na s
ig
tn, eixat
wc abrni
coh
tLeih enr set
we re,r
ethen
7Mne.
558.
Of t'lle counties which had adopted the system the highest
three were in Ulster, and it appeased that those who could
not read or write formed in Ulster only from 20 to 24 per
cent. of the population, while in Connaught it was from
70 to 75 per cent. ; but of the 8 lowest counties 5 were in
Cennanght.and 3in Leinster. This said something in fa-
vour of the system of education of the national board. It
began under great disadvantages. It had inflicted upon it
severe blows by the secession of important member.), by
the opposition of tLe clergy and landlords, yet it had suc-
ceeded because it was supported by the great mass of the
people ; it had for the first time succeeded in rebutting the
influence of the priesthood. The people in general gave
their adhesion to the way in which the system was ad-
ministered. He must now refer to the rival system.
When the grant was withdrawn from the Kildare-street
Society, and the present system established, certain of the
clergy joined in csrrying out locally a different system, and
raised means for doing so. After a short time it was
found that the central body was necessary, and in 1839
the Church Education Society was established. He would
take the principle of that society on their own showing.
The great difference bet teen them and the National So-
eiety lay in this, that in the latter the reading of the
J3ible was permissive, while in the former it was copapui.,

statement made by the Home Secretary till the November
following nothing was done, but in the course rf November
Lord Derby communicated the result of his lauours to:the
House of Lords. He stated, that dosing the recess Its
and his colle.rgares in the Government, together wi h
the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, had directed their at-
tention to this question. The Lord-Lieutenant had con-
sidered it Isis duty to devote greet attention to the sub-
ject, and that neither himself (Lord Darby) nor his
noble friend (the lord-lieutenant) could see his way to
any ehange that would not disturb the present system,
which would be a very serious evil. The Government
would not therefore bring forward any alteration which
they thought must necessarily lead togreatevils which they
world most sincerely deplore. Now, when the Earl of Derby
made that statement, there ware three prelates connected
with the Church Education Society in the House of Lords,
lent not one word was said about the matter at the time.
The Earl of Derby offere I a full inquiry, but it was not
accepted. Honourable gentlemen opposite had seen their
way clear enough in Opposition, but when in office they
were struck with blindness. Now, after three years in
Ospositien, they had recovered their vision, and came for-
ward with their plans. He (Hr. Herssnac) thought that
too much importance could not be attached to the convic-
tiens of Lord Derby when it was remembered how these
convictions were aro iced at. If, bowever, there was nay
aosihority better than that of the Earl of Derby, it was un-
doubtedly that of the End of Eglettou, Vie Lord-Lieu-
tenant of reland under Lord Derby's Government, who
eated ;hat, after the most unremitting attention to the sub-
ject, he could see no way by which the aarty of the noble
earl could be satisfied without driving all the Roman Catho-
lic children from the schools—without driving, said the
noble lord, 400,100 children from even the means of secu-
lar e bleat:ion. (Hear.) He (Hr. Horsiness) could not with-
held his tribute of esteem from Lord Eglinton. Ile went
to Ireland a ereng party man. Ho went to Ireland to
give effect to the views of his party, and on the subject of
national education he was deeply pledged. He had not a
single official adviser in Ireland who was net committed
against the national system. If the noble lord had
committed himself to viclent partisans and unsafe coml..
sel'ors, had he gone headlong into the passions of his party,
he would ha,,er committed a mistake which would have
made his admieistration in Ireland a curse. Instead of
taking that course, he applied his mescaline good sense to
the subject, and ho made known his conclusions honestly and
manfully to Lord Derby, thus saving his party from a
great blunder, and his country from a greet calamity. For
this the noble lord deserved the gratitude of his friends
and what ho (Mr. Horsinan) was prepared to pay him,
the respect of his opponents. (Loud cheere.) He had
listened with !great attention to the speech of the right
hen. gentleman who had introduced the subject that night,
but there was a matter on which the right hon. gentleman
had not touched—he had not attempted to reconcile his
conduct as a member of Lord Derby's Government in 18:.2
with his opposition in. 1856. Could the right hon. gentle-
man deny that the plan which was under the consideration
of his Government in 1852 was that of the Bishop of Os-
sory, and that the result of the adoption of that plan
would have been, as Lord Eglinton had said, to drive
400,b00 Roman Catholic children from the schools ? Could
he deny that that was the plan to which Lord Derby re-
ferred when he made his statement in the House of Lords ?
And yet that was the plan which the right hon. gentleman
now said he was eurprised the Government were unwilling
to adopt. There had been no changes as regarded the right
hon. gentleman and hie friends except that they were now
denuded of the responsibilities of office ; but yet he came
down to the house and advised the Government to adopt
that plan which the Government of Lord Derby would not
undertake, and to face all the calamities which they looked
upon not only with apprehension but with dismay.
(Cheers.) The right hon. gentleman had stated that the
national system had entirely failed:as'a united system ; but
ho was prepared to say that, as far as any rational expecta-
tion could be formed, it had eminently succeeded. Look-
ing to the peculiar circumstances of Ireland, it would be
admitted that it was very difficult to establish a united
system where the preponderance was so much on one side
or the other. In such a state of things it could never be
expected that they would have an equal number of children
in their schools, but still the system had not failed, for its
great object was to provide good secular instruction, and
that it had accomplished. One reason why it had not
proved so united 'a system as it might otherwise have been
was, that the clergy of the Established Church of Ireland
had done everything in their power to defeat it. The
clergy had carried their opposition to the system to the
fullest extent, and they had lost in consequence much of
the sympathy of the laity ; for it would be seen that while
in all other denominations the schools established by the
clergy very far outnumbered those established by the laity,
those established by the laity of the church far outnum-
bered those established by the clergy. (Hear, hear.) In
all the provinces of Ireland there were only 156 church
schools established by the clergy, whereas there were 452
established by the laity. But there was another fact still
more remarkable, in the case of workhouse schools, which
had been put by the laity, having the management of these
unions, under the National Board. There were in Ireland
163 unions. in 13J of which the workhouse schools had
been placed by the beard of guardiaes under the national
board. The ci rgy of the Establish() I Church kept away
from the national schools because they were opposed to
their religious convictions ; but they did not keep away
from the national schools of workhouses, which were con-
ducted upon precisely similar principles, because they were
retained as chaplains to the boards of guardians. (Hear,
hear, and Oh, oh.) Now there was only one other point
to which, in cost lesion; he would refer. The right hon.
gentleman (Mr. Walpole) came forward in that house as
the representative of the clergy, or of the church, and he
asked why they should be excluded from the benefit of the
grant? Ho (Ur. Horstnan) had before him the opinions,
one after another, of the highest authorities in the State,
all of them expressing their great disapprobation of the
course the clergy of Ireland had taken. Lord Derby had
expressed that opinion in very strong terms indeed. The
Duke of Wellington and Sir IL. Peel had taken the same
view of the case. Lord Eglinton boldly referred the failure
of the system to the clergy. The noble lord had stated in
strong terms that the clergy had hod opportunities they had
thrown away. He (Mr. Horsman) wo add not say how long
theclergy had had exclusive resources, or allude to any in i-
tating topics of that kind ; but he would ask the right her.
gentleman what was the position of those he was now re-
presenting? There was a system of education established
in Ireland by the Legislature, upheld by successive admi
nistrations, which nine Governments had failed to touch:
which two committees of the House of Commons had failed,
to shake ; to which one public man after another had given'.
his adhesion, and none so much as those who were strongest
against it; and yet the clergy had set themselves in oppo-
sition to it. They had placed themselves in direct ante-
gonisna to it, and had clamoured for the abandonment of a
principle which was admitted on all hands to be advan-
tageous to the country. Was it nothing that every public
man who had held high office had condemned that opposi-
tion ? The clergy could not inculcate the religion which the
people of Ireland believed, and would not teach what the
Legislature supported. (Hear.) The principle laid down by
Government was one from which they could never shrink.
It involved freedom of conscience, and religious equality
as the basis of sound education in Ireland. That was a
principle upon which her Majesty's Government would never
hesitate or falter. It was long fought for and at last tri-
umphed in England and ,Scotland, though reluctantly
grentedeand once granted for Ireland it should never be
withdrawn. (Loud cheers )
Mr. G. A. HAMILTON, on the part of the Protestants
of Ireland, effered their thanks to the right hon. gentle-
man
member for the University of Cambridge (Hr. Wal-
pole), and to the right hon. baronet the member for the ,1
University of Oxford, for the efforts they had made to re- 1
dress hardship and injustice. Ho was also desirous of stet-
ing that the proposition male by the right hon. gentleman
would have the effect of settling those long-disputed ques- 1
tions, and of removing that feeling of injustice which pre. 1
vailed amongst the people of Ireland. He deeply regretted
that the right hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Horan% oi), in
the tenour of the observations lie bad made should have
departed from the moderate and conciliatory tone
which characterised the speech of the right honourable
gentleman who introduced the question. The sight hon.
geatlernan had imptited to Lord Dolby inconsistency and
some impropriety iu his conduct in reference to the ques-
tion. He had referred to the interview which the sight
hon. gentleman the member for the University of Dublin
(Hr. Napier) had bad with the noble lord, and said that he
had allowed the period of his Administration to pass away
without fulfilling the proteise he held out. The real facts
of the case were that during Lord Derby's Administration
there were no opportunities of having that inquiry which
the noble lord was so anxious to support. No one could
doubt that Lord Derby as the founder of the national
system must have viewed with suspicion any plau by which
its fundamental principles should be disturbed. (Hear.)
It was no new system that the right hon. gentleman the
member for the University of Cambridge wished to intro-
duce, and it would not in any way disturb the present ar-
rangements. When the schools of Roman Catholics, Pres-
byterians, and others were deducted from the aggregate
number, there would only remain about 1,300 schools to
which the right hon. gentleman's principle would apply.
The clergy of the Irish Church occupied a certain position
in their parishes, and therefore felt it their duty to adopt
the course they had pursued. The whole number of schools
where the Scriptures were taught aas 673, but from that
number must be deducted 79 of a mixed el a actor, 214 in
which there were virtually no children except those beleng.
ing to the Established Church, and 12'; vested school,. The
number, therefore, of schOols in Ireland that would be af-
fected by the proposition of hit right hon. friend was only

" Are yon not of opinion that while the principle of the
vested schools was one of united education, the principle
.of the non-vested schools wr.ts as clearly one of separate
education ?—I think it was, and I think it was tacitly
admitted by the board themselves in their sixth rep,rt ;
for they said that such schools must be looked upon as
bearing a peculiar religious aspect.
" So that from the moment that the board began to give
aid to the non-vested schools, they departed from the great
kriaciplo of their system, which was united education ?
Practically, they did establish a system of separate schools,
under the name of a system of united education."
Well, I have another testimony which is stlll more strong
than that—the Secretary of the National Board himself.
At the conclusion of his evidence he was asked if he had
any more, to say, and these words cotnrnenced his an-
swer Perhaps I may be permitted to state, in con-
clusion to my examination, that the national system of
rincation, as a united system, has failed to a consider-
able extent." In his answers to questions 119 and
120; too, there is a remarkable confirmation of this
statenient, In answer to 119,
quention he put in a ta-
.

THE SUN LON.DON, WEDNESDAY EVEN_Iik:I. C 4 JUNE
..---...----
,h mend in the rules,, and in reply he describes what was the . existing or hereafter to be established, whatever their sory. According to the rule of the National Board, Ro- • 253, and he would put it to the house whether that was a COll Itry ihTarkets. •
hs feeliag of the clergy upon the subject. And now that I ' regulations may be as to the mode of religious instruc- man Catholics might absent themselves from religious in- sufficient number to warrant the bringing forward of that
-o•
re
am dealing with that particular question, allow me to re- 1 tion ; provided that no children shall be compelled to struction, or might receive that religious instruction as they proposition. With respect to the national system, he did
lo mind you that two years ago ITresented a petition to this learn any catechism, creed, or formulary to which any chose ; while the Church Education Society made religious not complain of it, but
when his right hon. friend stated, LIVERPOOL-JUNE 17.
house, signed by 5,400 clergymen of the Church in Eng- : parent or guardian may object; and provided that the instruction a condition of admission, and superseded the and produced statistics to show that that system had been
Dr
land, praying that relief might be given to their brethren 1 patrons shall be willing to place such schools in connection authority of parent and ga srdian. It had been well said entirely successful, he must join issue with him. The hon. theAttotow-
- in Ireland, not from any desire to break up your combined with the board, to permit the board's control over books that the two systems were incompatible. The society had gentleman then quoted the evidence of Inspector Mac• wheat was mostly confined to a few retail purel?` better
re
~, system-not from any desire to proselytise Roman catho. to be used in general instruction, and to receive officially declared that it would not modify its rules to meet the ready, who was so highly spoken of by Mr. Cross (the se. generally the full prices of Tuesday last. Flour In
Isnßd
ost.
'u lie or other children, but simply from the desire to see jus- the visits of the Government inspectors." views of the Government, and would continue to make the cretary of the National Board), given before the Lords'com- demand, but without alteration in value. 0
advance of
at tics done, considering, as they expressed in that petition, Sir W. HEATHCOTE seconded the motion. The im. reading of the Bible a condition of admission. The Arch- mittee for the purpose of showing that the standard of meal were in moderate request, and a further
and besns
that the clery of the Irish Church, in steadily refusing portanoo of this motion could hardly be disputed by any bishop of Cashelhas expressly admitted that it was a pro- education was anything but so high as might have been LI per .151 b and is per load established. Barley
but sales
to connect themselves with the National Board under member of the house, and least of all by those who were selytising society when he said that its objects were to en- expected. He also quoted from the census of 1851 totown
a y's
anti market
country
trade,et a s
aonndl y
tab
e thin
b n
sin e gi c_iB attendance
se ?:ft
held for 21 par 601 b and is per qr. more money, but *
were limited. Indian corn in fair request, but 6d 32s 6(1
conditions which would prevent their teaching the attached to that system of education in Ireland. The lighten the people. This was adopting rules which expe- show that whether the civic or rural districts were taken,
holders asking 31s for prime yellow and mined, an
ted•
sr Holy Scriptures, had acted in accordance with the prin- only objections he had heard to the motion were, that any rience had shown to be injurious. The statistics of the the highest points of education had been arrived at be-
d-
ciples of the Church and in the fulfilment of their ordi- alteration in the present system would tend to break up society had shown what the result had been of its opera- tween the years 1817 and 1837. From that period to 1841,
to
nation vows.. (Hear.) Whether they were right or united education in Ireland ; and the other was, that if it tions, and how unwise they were. In 1848, the year of tho standard fell considerably. There was large increase
a
Or
HULL-JUNE 17.
• wrong in that opinion it is not for me to say ; but it is for were adopted it wonlh tend to proselytism ; but he cond. the famine, the number of scholars at its schools was of those parsons who could neither read nor write between
our Wine"
ll-
le me to say that when gentlemen who niake such high and dered these objections were opposed to each other, and 120,000, and its income 37,000/. ;of these scholars 46.000 the ages of 16 and 25, in 21 counties of Ireland. There- We had a very small supply of wheat from he eeices
praiseworthy efforts in the cause of education, and who could not have any force together, because if they were were Roman Catholic. In 1849 its scholars were 111,000, fore_, in spite of that national system which had been to-day, and which met ready sale at 2s above to it
4.. at the fs"
per qr. for best white, only a moderate business resul
ve
have such honourable and conscientious convictions. feel divided into separate schools there could be no chance of and its income 39.0001. In 3350 its scholars had decreased spoken of so highly by the right hon. gentleman, ignorance paid last Tuesday. Foreign in good request e
the math'
us
that they cannot bring up the children of their flocks as proselytism. This question should not now b 3 considered to 108,000, audits income increased to 4',0001. • in 1.851 had greatly increased. Taking Wexford only, the increase advance noted down. Barley is dearer ; beansseeh Liu'
they ought to bring them up without the free use of the on the documents and reasons assigned twenty years ago, the scholars were 103,000, and the income 40,0 ;in 1852 of illiterate males was 4 per cent. between thel and 1851, and few offering. Oats good to sell at qtwtarh-eh cakes
let Scriptures, it is a little unreasonable to deny them a por- but on the present altered circumstances, which warranted The scholars were 105,000, and the income 40,0001.; in 1853 while in 1841 the schools were only 44, but in 1851 there seed very firm, with a large business in both o-a.-wartted•
Du tion of the grant on those grounds. This however, bY the change contemplated, and which, to a certain extent, the scholars had fallen to 99,000, while the incense. was were 108. In Wicklow the increase was also 4 per cent., for forward delivery. Rape cakes scarce and
way of parenthesis, before I finish Mr. Buxton's evidence. had been-recommended by the Commissioners. 44,0001. ;in 1854 the scholars were9s,ooo, and the income while the schools had increased from 39 to 72. In Clare The bone season about over: ' BO ii
)W " One could not help feeling (says he), on visiting the Mr. KENNEDY objected to the motion of the right 44,0001. ; and in 1855 the scholars were 20,000, and the in- the increase of ignorance was 1 per cent., and the increase a s I
id Protestant schools, that there was a great want of the hon. gentleman, and submitted the following amendment come 55,0001.; so that from 1848 to 1855 the o: schools from 33 to 130. In the whole 21 counties, the Wheat, English, red 71 to 76 Peas, grey
is. advantage which the state could give in the way of books and to the house in opposition to it :-"Whilst this house feels scholars had fallen from 120,000 to 90,000, while increase of schools had been from 1,505 to 2,971. With Ditto white 1 • "a B 1 k Sea.** '''' n
76 to 80 lensee , ae oh to b-
it apparatus, and salaries for teachers, and so on, it to be its duty to facilitate the extension of those advan- the income had increased from 37,000/, to respect to the clergy, they had suffered enough already Dantzic and Konigs- (Ditto Petersburgh ...
Arch-
Heir; then asked- tages now enjoyed by schools in connection with the Beard 45,1001. Moreover, the Roman Catholic children bad for their adherence to the high principle of maintaining berg 74 to 82iDitto Rigaand ,e to 46
eta
fallen from 46,000 to 17,000. The falling off was, there- the Bible in the schools, and he thought it was too hard Pomeranianandllam- angel .............. . *-A " . "On all these grounds you probably think it would be of National Education in Ireland, to other suitable schools
and or very desirable if there could be a settlement of the question now existing or hereafter to be established, it feels it to be fore, not from want of funds, but because they were act- that imputations should now be thrown out a.gainat them. burgh
!11 which, without interfering with any good be it smaller great, equally its duty to express its conviction that no such ex- ing upon false principles. He had thus shown, as far as If he was rightly informed, their patronage was now re- Danish,Holstein, and Memel ........... ...• h°
Pollen.
in which the national system is doing in Ireland, would Satisfy tension ORD, be carried into effectual operation unless it be figures would let him, the success of the one system and duced to the small number of 77 schools. Upon education Friesland 63 to 7 Os to 9: 0 ill
t ; the scruples of the clergy, so as to allow their schools-to bo explicity avowed and clearly understood in each such the failure of the other. The right hom gentleman said generally he would say that he did not believe state ode- Russian and Odessa 58 to 68,Lins. c., Eulll sh sod
in- connected with the National Board 9-I think so, certainly school open to children of different denominations, that no that with a view to encouraging membersi of the Esta- cation was congenial to the feelings of the British people, Oats, English
ten,lol
.rd "Have you in considering the question, been able to ar- attempt shall be made to influence or disturb the peculiar bushed Church in Ireland the Government thought that and that the policy of the Government should henceforth Ditto Danish
00108 t• sw nd
en rive at any scheme for such a settlement ?- I .do not see religious tenets of any sect or denomination of Christians, some variation ought to take place in the distributien of be to give aid as much as possible to local effort. It was Ditto Friesland -
I a Od t°
;11, why the system which has answered so well in England and that the rules therein bo so explicit as to remove all the educational grants, and that the clergy ought not to be evident to commence with that state education must be Ditto Russian 27 to 2811 tape cakes •-•
th. to -4
should not be applied to Ireland, though, perhaps; with grounds for apprehending any such interference with their excluded because from conscientious motives they were founded upon some religious principle. But what did Barley, malting
eh_ 4,, 0,
ors
precluded from adopting the national system. Now he (Mr. that mean? If it meant teaching children the formularies Ditto grinding 34 to 381 Ditto foreign ..... se.ss,;hoo
he some modifications." respective religious principles." He proceeded to argue
Re is then asked this question, to which I would particu- that if the house and the Government adopted the motion Horstnan) begged that the house would remark how of the church ho believed that the time was ill chosen, Beans
I - A ela to ....."'
'''.
rut strongly the Government had made up their minds Upon and that system would fail. The object of education was Ditto foreign
laxly request the attention of the Government- of the right honourable baronet, it would produce all those
ng, " Will you suggest any modifications which you think it religious feelings of bitterness and rancour that formerly this subject-(hear)-and that they had a plan in their to impress upon the mind those great principles which Peas, white and yel. 38 to 421 Flour, per bri• • ....
0' ought to undergo T-I think, as I have heard suggested by ' existed in Ireland to a great extent, and he called on the minds by which inquiry was to he followed. Accordingly, fitted a man for this world and the world to come. Oppor-
eal
Dr. Trench, that the plan of the Church Education Society house not to disturb the present system, which had been the Church Society held a meeting at which the Bishop of tunities for doing that would continually occur in all IPSWICH-JUNE 17.
and black --al tow 51
a 11E11"ea
in should be, to a certain extent, adopted-that is, the plan of the only real boon that the house had conferred on Ossory (Dr. O'Brien) propounded his plan, and on that 00- schools, such, for instance, as when two children gave The supply of wheat was very small, and only r qr.
e. _ _cation.bhetook theopportunity of giving the Government way to their natural animosity and quarrelled. That was
!en only giving aid in proportion to the qualifications of the Ireland. . ,
Mr. HORSMAN said that the proposition of his right every facility of settling the question hy the co-operation the moment to teach a child the lessons of Him who corn- ce on the sales of last week. In 0
tat children in the school. It appeared to me that the schools
his. I visited in Ireland, particularly the national schools, hon. friend opposite had been brought forward with so of the clergy. At first the Church education party de- mended them to forget and forgive. So throughout the advance
done, principally with the mllersti
• 00014
wanted a stimulus; many of them were in a very languid much ability that it was almost difficult for the house to nounced the national system as anti-Christian, godless,,and whole of the great truths of Christianity, he believed they est . I
wo change can be noted.
PER QUARTER.
--0 to
--
sinful ; hut eventually they altered their plans, and in were far better impressed upon the mind by selecting op-state indeed ; and if the system were altered it would be an resist it. But he felt that there was so much difference em
1852 a fuither modification rock place, and the Church portunities of that kind than by teaching portions of the
excellent thing to let the teachers feel that the grant to the both in principle and policy, between the views of the Geo'.
ion
school would be in proportion to the advance of the children vernment and those of the right hon. gentleman, and the education party put themselves under rules of the national Church formularies at stated titres every day. He fully Ditto (new) -s to -s Beans ........ . ,to
....•
Wheat, rod (old) 69s to 72s Barley, grinding
.. . „te oohs t
are in learning." consequences of adopting those last views would be so dire board as regarded secular education, reserving, their coo- maintained that the Bible should be held out to every chill
ant us convictions with respect to religious instruction. as the groundwork of his religion ; and he thought, except Ditto, white...., 76s to 80s Peas ..... 7 ........... 1,17:4,t9
-s to -spitto (white) ...... ete h•O
res- Thera is a good deal in that suggestion and it leads estrous, that he should be disappointed if he failed to con- Dittoßerl
Barley,
(old)yi viR
A malting
the me besides to the last point with which'l shall trouble vines the house that it would be doing an act of injustice But what was the result of all that? From the time of the in special cases, that that principle should be adopted in all
'lr g tho house, and that is to state distinctly what I pro- to Ireland if it did not reject the motion. The right hon. statement made by the Home Secretary till the Noveniber State schemes of education. It had been said that the GSB FOR THE Wean ENDING JUNE 14, 1856.
7d
following nothing was done, but in the course of November master made the school, but it must not be forgotten that Wheat • 2lOO quarters, at 68s , '
hat pose to ask. I think it is clear from what I have said, l gentleman had said that the present system had failed in -el Flour, per sack ...-° : •
--8 011
Lord Derby communicated the result of his labours Oahe the patron made the master, and that anything tending to Oats
tin that your system cannot always continue exactly as Ireland. He (Mr. Horsman) trusted that he should be - *ll -II ea .
House of Lords. He stated, that during the recess' he prevent fit persons becoming patrons of schools tended Peas -
jee- it is. At the same time I admit that you ought able to show the contrary. The right hon. gentleman had
1 9
.-.4 Oa .
and his colleagues in the Government, together *i h directly to prejudice the utility of those schools. For the Barley -
weir to make as few alterations as would enable you to continue said the system was not an united system. He (Mr.
OD
the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, had directed their at- reasons stated he was not satisfied with the national sys- Bears
don that system without unnecessary disturbance. What, Horsmar) would show that it was perfectly united. The tention to this question. The LordsLierttenant had con- tern, and should support the proposition of his right hon.
i of. therefore, I would ask, is that you should grant "that right hon. gentleman had said that the motion would lead culered it his duty to devote great attention to the sub-
-
system
hee such modifications may be made in the rulesof the national to harmony.. He should show that it would lead to die- friend. .
T. Jed, and 'that neither himself (Lord Darby) nor his Mr. HUGHES said that the importance of this question COURSE Oil' gxonAisroß.-YESTEBDA
--' of education in Ireland as will extend the advan- cord. The right hon. gentleman said that his measure
rip- •
r tages now enjoyed by non-vested schools to any other than only was) ermissive in allowing the reading of the Bible to noble friend (the lord-lieutenant) could see his way to • mighobe judged of from the fact that 2,500,000 persons bad „. oh .
km5terdam............ 11 'B% •Gibraltar ..•• .• " .. 30 .'„,L
hee vested schools now existing or hereafter to be established, Protestants. He should show that it Made the reading Of any change that would not disturb the present system, been educated by the educational board, and there were Ditto, three months .. 12 0% Leghorn .. ........ '. .23 SAM 1i..1- whatever their regulations may be as to the mode of religi- the Bible obligatory on all. The right hon. gentleman had which would be a very serious evil. The Government now in course of education 550,000. There had been an aotterdam ............ 12 0% Genoa ........... •" '
xis ous instruction." Now, I wish the house to beer in mind cited authorities to show that they ought to abandon the would not. therefore bring forward any alteration which express pledge formerly given th at the religions principles entwerp ............. 25 07% Milan ............ •!••.'
nee the difference betwetn vested and non-vested schools. principle on which they had hitherto acted. He should they thought must necessarily lead togteat evils which the
.. 13 1014 Naples •••••••••••• . 132
would most sincerelydeplore. Now, when the EarlofDeiby sent proposition of the right hon. gentleman contained a `,l?-monbanrgh •- •• •• •• -
Y of the children should not be interfered with, but the pre- itrusseis .... ..s. ...... 25 o'N Venice-h."... ...h.,. 441(
eke Vested schools are those towards the building of which the cite authorities to show that that system ought not to be
hly commissioners have contributed money. Non-vested schools relaxed, and that it was their duty as well as their policy made that statement, there were three prelates connected condition that every child should be compelled to read th©
with the Church Education Society in the House of Lords. holy Scriptures whether the parents dissented from it or
ice are those towards the building' of which lay patrons have to keep it up. He perfectly agreed with those who said ittaritis...111::••.:::::::.• 20-42% Messina ... ........ • h 34
but not one word was said about the matter at the time.
le contributed, and to which no contributions have been made that religion should be the basis of education. But he maDrsitetion,etslinuaonths ..
25
7755
;Oporto Lisbo7 .. .......... ........ 53.2 i
n not. The people of Ireland, therefore, naturally enough
The Earl of Derby enrol a full inquiry, but it was Hot believed that a trep was being laid to proselytise their Bourdeaux ~.........-.. - R:0 Janeiro ..... •'• ' •--
• '' by the board. The vested echools are placed under the con- hitfered eutirely from those who sail that religion did not .o...Ante'
ion
trol of the beard, and are, therefore, kaown by thet title. enter lergely into the system of instruction pursued in
Berlin - ..... ..... .... - New York,6o ay
ilet Honourable gentlemen opposite had seen their I children. There were at the Pressnt moment 5,178 schools Frankfort-on Maine .... 121% Buenos Ayres.d.,•7B•lo'l i
-w-a7cle-a';'enowth in Opposition, but when in offiee theY in operation under the system promulgated in 1832, re-
The non-vested schools are left under the control of the lay the natioual schools. The Bishops of Oxford, of Dun. Vicuna-. ......... 10 20 Philadelphia •• •• •• '' ..:10 °S.,.
ref' patron, and in carryin,g on the work of education receive ham, of London, and of Carlisle, bad all taken up the were struck with Windom. Now, after three years in specting all of which a guarantee had then been given that
10 21 1 PRICEB OF BULLION, ._ ,7 2
to state aid only in the shepe of salaries to teachers, books, principles of religious teaching in their schools, and had Opposition, they hail recovered their vision, and came for- no religions interference should take place. The present eartatPeclee 00
motion. if acceded to, would be a direct breach of faith vadrie ..........; ~.. 49% Portugal Gold Coln • „tsono re igt- gtven em etc sanc ton. e lig onoura e gen
the and other school requisites. In the vested schools 1. • ' th th • t. Th • Irt h bl wt ard with their plans. He (Hr. Horsrnan) thought that
oo much importance could not be attached to the conva Cadiz ......... • • ...... -- 1 Mexican Dollars .... 7, 0 ,me oue instruction is given during school hours ; but after tleman -had said that the difficulty was as to the fuuda-
- New Dollars .. •••• ;', 5 I's
Votersbutz ............ 37% PFaloreennignoill .111. . 13.15r5.......gu;?. I:02,00
NAPIER observed that the fallacy which pervaded heavrgc010ni,............. . fine school hours the school-room is accessible to any person by mental principle of national education, and those princi- tions of Lord Derby when it was remembered how tho.see. with rho Irish people.
Silver in bars ...• o. " • .
convictions were arrived at. If, however, there was any all the speeches on the other side was that it had been 6i" ............ -
set whom the parents or guardians wish to be educated in the plea were with respect to schools of vested and non-vestedauthority better than that of the Earl of Derby, it was tin- assumed the purpose of the motion was to deprive Roman ehh,,,....................,-,.,---......e ,
the religious faith which they themselves profess, and to which rights, and the rights to be allowed to the patrons of those
tttbtediy that of the Earl of Eghoton, the Lord-Lieu- Catholics of the opportunity of enjoying education in the
ace they belong. In the non•vested schools the religious in- schools. Now he (Mr. Horsman) was not accustomed toSEABORNE MAILS.
mthaielms
errant if ;reland under Lord Derby's Government, who schools which at present existed. He fully admitted the
struction is prescribed by the lay patron • but in the case consider these as fundamental principles. To prove this
ee-
me sated` that, after the most unremitting attention to the shb- advantages which Roman Catholics enjoyed. They had got t 061"
of those children whose ►%rents object to the relisious in- he would o further back, end show what their ast exne- • - gat . P . o . g - ' P e ject, he could sea no.way by which the party of tho noble the funds of the State for the purpose of educating their
struction so prescribed, opportunities are afforded, not in rience had been, acknowledged that the education of the earl could be satisfied without driving all the Roman Cathos_.----•"'
1 of
, school hours, for the children being educated by their own Irish people was a nationel concern, and with this view o children according to their free will and pleasure ; and if
0/.,v."
. AC children from the schools-without driving, said the the effect of the motion were to deprive thorn of education,
tle minister. - Now, observe, Ido not propos® to inzerfere they had legislated for many ages. Acts of Parliament noble lord, 400,C00 children from even the meaus of secu- and to force upon them the principle of the Church Educe y ,
the
tele,gitifttel
an d that
m the
by
oarrneineegt
afresompatethhoo
ing with the vested schools. I think they should continue as had been passed on the principle which then prevailed,
ChtOnosum. In General Post- run N, Wei_ lar education. (Hear.) He (Hr. Florstnan) could not with- lion Society, then the argument urged by the supporters of
iild they are. Neither do I propose in the least degree to inter- that the ignorance of the Irish people was to be attributed hold his tribute of esteem from Lord Eglinton. He went the present system would apply. But he entirely denied
----..---- . _,
lee- fere with the workhouse school, with the mo'riel school, or
yens their religion and that the conversion of the people was , secelhh4
that this argument applied to the case before the house, --
to Irelarel a strone party n.an. He went to Ireland to
. ric fbyn-it pack 'every Prides- ... Liven:ow •
ter' with the school for training teachers. I believe them all essary preliminary to their education, so much so,
subject.of motion •
give effectto the views of his party, and on the
sin, to be gOol, not to say excellent, and I think, therefore, that by act of Parliament the Roman Catholic clergy wore national education he was deeply pledged. He had not a connection with those that existed, tmerice (by United Sts
r. Every - nesday .. Livernoot •••
packet) .........._
they should remain as they are. With regard to non-vested prohibited under severe penalties from imparting instruc- • 1 in who • 1
:,n, sing e official adviser Ireland was not commuted and to enlarge and extend the present system. tnecrice (by U. Stars, 540Yadwcilee, Linda:: London. irrsisp°meGteventhl:eraa.l r°46.l_,olna
schools, Ido not propose to make any alteration which lion to the people. The result was, that the Irish people
,m- against the national system. If the noble lord lead M DEA.
bring other schools in
SY said the right honourable gentleman who packet) ..........1, ,o• .... . - 0
I'll
would deprive the Presbyterians or others of any advan- were in a lamentable state • that before the present eon-
snstrana(via Liver-
.. Itve •
.committed himself to viclent partisans and unsafe corm- introduced the motion would have led the house to suppose
7°u tsge they now enjoy contrary to the original fundamental tar the schools were noted for disloyalty and for every
the
rules of the board. Bat what I do ask is this, that you kind of vice ;so that royal commissions and parliamentary '
sel'ors had he gone headlong into the passions of his party, that the Protestants of Ireland were precluded from giving
oitto (via efarseilles) ii ......... Dover ••••••• • • hi
he would haoe committed a mistake which would have religious instruction to their own children, but he did not
elutedppone after e outer o inves 1-
'L" should extend to those non-vested schools, and to those committees were atht • t- fotto (via Cape of Good • . ~met ,
made his administration• Ireland curse Instead of ina . quote any rule of the educetional board of Ireland which /3100
.:.,
.. .. .. .4 .. N .. .... .
1, •:. eh pir
roll alone, such modifications of your rules as will enable the gate the cause, and to suggest remedies. All these came topeel) ............e 4th and 19th .... Liverpool
taking that course, he applied his mescaline good sense to
Wl3 members of the Church in Ireland to educate their the same conch ion, that there had been no attempt to ex-
,
the subject andhe made known his conclusions honestly and prevented from doing was from forcing their own religious elexanhria........ ••t. 10th St 20th of no. Dover ..•„.),•14,t11siou
tended to restrict this liberty. What they really were &trice (west Coast) .. 1, 555, of tho montt. . Plymout
... 4t I tTh_
Ile, childen in their own way. (Cheers.) In asking that I ask tirpate ignorance from Ireland, but to promote prose- the
upon Roman Catholic children. And if this 4.1exandria..........31 t,a, &20cn of mob. iouthanll-.__ Led,
gotithaBlo OP de
rou no snore in substance than. what you have already granted lytism, and for that reason the people of Ireland stood to' Lord Derby, thus saving his party from a
and country a great _ motion were carried would step _ ,seghum
... h
„h.
hh 0,11 y......
....1,,f 16.
manfully
atblunder hisfrom calamity.For * it be another in the same to others ; and I ask itsubject to certain conditions, and aloof from the school. He begged the house to see how ire, great
the noble' lord deserved the gratitude of his friatids retrograde course of which the recent vote on the subject ht"
Omen .............. es 9th of the month.. ionthaml3! ' ''Zi'; 16 .
the conditions; aro these :---First, I think these schools slowly, yet how strongly, the conviction on this point had
Vie and what he (Mr. Horsman) wasprepared to ay him, of Ma nooth was the first. It was said that the resent .
ought
to pat themselves in connection with the National been expressed. A royal commission had been issue(' in , P y . . P Buenos Ayres ........M
Valina ports quo are respect of opponents. (Loud cheers.) He had system was either exclusively Protestant, or that the Ca- Cape of
the his Good Hope „Is Uncertain . o
ratt.
so, Board ; secondly, that they ought to submit to govern- 1806, which had made its final report in 1812. It consist d listened with ! reat attention to the speech of the right tholics did not derive commensurate benefits froth the sys- Cape of
Bahamas ...........10 17th of the mono aeuthamoro ,o, ,
h Of
oth , •r. - ....nu; Southampton 9t _ ~.
°"" moot inspection ; and, thirdly, that they ought not to of ale Archbishop of Armagh, the Archbishop of Cashel, hon. tl g introduced subject that night, of the Boardof Educational Cape de Verde .. N
but gen eman who had the
Ceylon ,s__ India) 10th and 26th is IS ''
26
WO he allowed to force -upon any children whose parents or Mr. Currie, the Chancellor of the Irish Exchequer Dr. Good Hope ..N
there was a matter on which the right hon. gentleman Commissioners showed that this was entirely a fallacy. °t.el""a) 4th d2O h '4IS it on) guardians are not members of the Church any of the formu- Elric, the president of Trieity College, Richard Lovell h hey10n..............14 as t ao had not touched-he had not attempted to reconcile his What would be the result of the vote they were asked to hhioneo ide5....,...N t0•,,e..,et houthanithent_
se 209 the lonia's, catechism A, or creeds of the Church. These are the Edgeworth, and one or two others. Adl these, with the ox- conduct as a member of Lord Derby's Government in 1812 come to that uight ! In the first place they were asked Chi1i................114 id &IV', of monii 3outhamp 0 pin ,
- '4 am ,0
at- coudltions which I would annex to the grant if the Govern- caption of Mr. Edgeworth, were opposed to all concession i - • • •
th his opposition in 1856. Could the right hon. gentle- to remove the conscientious scruples of the Protestant china .. . - *, .na s* man deny that the plan which was under the consideration clergy. But he was convinced that those scruples could Constantinople ••....h ••• • 30 masapto, 1--
48, request lam asking no more than what I believe the and one bishop among them. Yet, in 1812, long before any
en. House of Lords woul I have agreed to after they made concession to the Roman Catholic claims was ever dreamt of, of his Governmentd in 1852 was that of the Bishop of Os- be removed- without encroaching on the rights of others.
y .... .„ Dover ..•••• L..-
-Ail/
f that 1
eery, and that the result of the adoption o t pan Mr. DE. VERB moved the adjournment of the debate.
349 their inquiry. These two volumes furnish the fullest the commission reported that no plan of education could be Egypt (see India) Tlrfa'-
I '
400 ave been, as Lord Eglinton had said, odrive Mr. DISRAELI appealed .to the hon gentleman not to trrance ........ At & N 'style° daily-- Dover ...• ~ 7, 44#
information to Parliament upon the subject ; but, unfortu- carried into operation, unless its leading principle was not to "r. 3
- ' nately, whether from the lateness of the season when the attempt to influence or disturb the peculiar relieious tenets ,600 Roman-Catholic children from thehchools ? Could press the motion, considering the late period of the session. Gibraltar ..........70 4,7.17,20,274 m Southamote. ° .
2nd Is 17th of mon iouthampt,:, 1'17;
he deny that that was the plan to which Lord Derby le- The house divided- Greece (see India)
Cont.CnBta onftEhrirPoleee•hdge...g: 4th :'2cllolailltill-li runthan"w7• dirt:
rch '
,_ h inquiry terminated, or from any,other cause, Ido not. know, of any part of the population. Here then was the ac- ferred when he made his statement in the House of Lords ? For the adjournment 32
uu no report was presented founded upon the evidence, knowledgment that the base of all education should be not And yet that was the plan which the right hon. gentleman Against it ....... ~ lB4 London ... es limos°
;en- although I understand several draft reports were prepared. to influence or disturb religious opinions. The Second now said he was surprised the Government were unwilling Majority against the adjournment.... -152 Holland .......... 4. M DallY •••• • • • Dover ....... 1 '''
000 . One of these was prepared by Lord Eglinton, another by royal commission was issued in 1821. It was unanimous CIL-It:ern:at:nu: nr
ga bh .....• .:.• .:
..• .....• Y..11' Daily
1 io
f the.
mobti Southarapt, I, ' .90 03
toi adopt. There had been no changes as regarded the right Sir J. FITZGERALD then proceeded to address the Elooduras ..........m 17ta of the month. iouthamptoi
....29
nan the Bishop of Ossory, a third by Lord Derby, a fourth by in its report, which said th-.t in a country where such ma-
-000 Lord Monteagle, and a fifth by Lord Granville, the Presi- aerial differences in religion exioed, schools sheuld be on. gentleman and hes.frie.n.ds except that they were now house on the motion, amidst loud cries of "Divide," and India (viaSouthampt.)3l ith k '2oth of moo Plymouth ..• I"-
denuded of the responsibilities of office ; but yet he came much interruption. His observations were quite inaudible India (via Marsoilles)3l 9tti&26th of month Dover ......
t, is dent of the Council, and so far the representative of the eatablished free from all suspicion of interference with
roman was (see India) 10 1k `. 4th . Dover.... ••
down to the house and advised the Government to adopt in the gallery.
s, is Government upon the subject of e location. Lord Gran- religious feeling. The committee of the House of Com-
Ireland ........M & N Twice daily ..... Holyhead ..
that plan which the Government of Lord Derby would not The house then divided on the motion- an ville's report goes to recommend the making of new regu- mons was appointed in - 818, and in its report it says, that
lations which would have prevented that difference again no system of education could be ex edient, if it was alm- undertake, and to face all the calamities which they looked For the motion
Madeira ............31 stn of the mon.: Sonthamptae,6, '
' at-
arising which has unfortunately led to the retirement lated to influence or disturb the Aculiar religious tenets upon not only with apprehension but with dismay. Against it .
3to from the board of two such men as the Archbishop of Dub- of any part of the population. The committee then (Cheers.) The right hon. gentleman had stated that the Majority in favour of the motion... -10 Malta (see India) 15, ,
I It. lin and Mr. Blackburne. (Hear, hear.) The report of adopted the very words used by the first royal commission. national system had entirely failedhs'a united system; but The announcement of the numbers was received with Malta ............ N 4, 10, 20, and 26.. Dover eees s- 4, 21'
for Lord Monteagle is in favour of the system. That of the In 1830 another parliamentary committee was appointed. he. was prepared to say that, as far as any rational expects- great cheering. Menritius (see India) -..
4. 21
Re- Bishop of Ossory is an able document, giving the That committee recommended that no farthertime should tion could be formed, it had eminently succeeded. Look- THE FRANCHISE. Mauritius ........ ts• :20 .ft of the meal
ing to the peculiar circumstances of Ireland, it would be Sir J. WeALMSLEY postponed his motion for leave to Mexico ....h. h ..M -sea of the mont• . 300tystimpt•v
ta' I
to Church views in the fullest and clearest manner ; be lost in giving the public the benefit of the experience admitted that it was very difficult to establish a united bring in a bill for the extension of the franchise and for hew Granada ~....!‘ 9Dald & 17th of mom' Dover
3ontbampte
the and anybody who wishes to know what those Church and the recommendations of the commission of 1806 and system where the preponderance was so much on one side the amendment of the representation in England and New Eea1and..........
Dui se a month . various por, ,heeoll
log views are will find them stated in that report with the the committee of 1828. It desired that no time should be or the other. In such a state of things it could never bo Wales. Papal Mates .... , ..N aily.... -•••• .. Dover .... a °
,eat power of argument and force of reasoning usually cha- lost in giving effect to the principle that non-interference Peninsula .....,....31 2outhamptor expected that they would have an equal number of children RAILWAY TRAFFIC BILL. of racteristie of that right rev. prelate. But the only reports with religions views was the only one to insure success in in their schools, but still the system had not failed, for its Peru ..............31 id & 27th of mor southamptot.
which bear more immediately on my motion and the appli- the education of Ireland. Were they, then prepared to lir. BLACKBURN moved the second reading of this peet Natat ..........o ay private ship.. various port, „horti
on- great object was to provide good secular instruction, and bill, the object of which was to compel railway companies 8-oily ..............N Every Saturday.. Dover .....• v- '
cation I now make are those of Lord Darby and Lord Gran- say that all these opinions were wrong ? because if the ear villa. Now. I remember that when this question was last slid not, they would not agree to the motion of his righyt that it had. accomplished. One reason why it had not to charge all passenger and other traffic after the same Ti cans ............N Ditto.... .... .... 'rover .....
ix seta l
proved so united -a system as it might otherwise have been Venezuels .. ~.. .. .. 31 2d it 17th of mont inuthamptor
ant before the House of Coinrnons the right hon. baronet (Sir bon. friend ; for if they were to do so thewould adopt rate, according to distance. As an instance of one of the
ith ..J. Graham) made an appeal of a most earnest character to the principle that it was right and advisable to interfere was, that the clergy of the Established Church of Ireland evils which the bill was intended to meet, he would refer Vail Disipe'sAnd (se` i •
had done everything in their power to defeat it. The Australia) ........ 4th of mon
the the Conservative members of the house not to take any with the religious opinions of the people. The right hon. to the case of the London and North-Western Company, Who reel,
~
-,u .. . '• • " taelDlits
h' trn-, •,,,..., 40nthamn ,ols step that was calculated to disturb the foundations.of the gentleman had referred to the Kildare-street Society, clergy had carried their opposition to the system to the which recently charged, for the purpose of competition, . dal 0 de*
. fullest extent and they had lost in consequence much of double the amount of fare for passengers to Blisworth, that When any of these dates fall on a Sunday, the mans ea-hielo
are system of education which Lord Derby had laid and carat- That society had adopted the words of the committee of the sympathy: of tlhe laity ; for it would be seen that while they were charging to Peterborough, although the distance s?oauttcb.h,emcipotonnthbane Scioltlbowie
mngaldtrbowiththsfthwehiecxbcewpitlilebneodietshpesghsd Vs
ur- limbed in Ireland. For myself, I can truly say that, owing 1812, not to interfere with the religious tenets of any part
was double. The abject was to compete with the Great
iu. as Ido to that great man-and proud Ism to avow it-my of the population. Yet that society had failed, because it in all other denominations theschoolserttablishetdbelay the
thosecergy very . far outnumbered. those established by laity, Northern Company for the Peterbsrough traffic preceding day. .
tau political allegiance, I should be extremely sorry to utter could not acquire the confidence of the people, when established by. the laity of tho church far outnum- .
one word here that was contrary to his opinions. Fortu- that confidence was necessary to its success. Yet all Mr. BLACK moved that the bill be read a second time ..
bared those established by the clergy. (Hear, hear.) In
reit natal however however, in this case lam not driven to the di- the difference between the Kildare-street Society and all the provinces of Ireland there were only 156 church that day sloe months.
in A
.3°' lemur'. of diffsring from the noble earl. He was the author the Church Atiucatiou as far as the confidence Mr. LOWE seconded the amendment. The avowed ob. LOOA.L SHARE MA.RKE Im'
schools established by the clergy, whereas there were 452 ject of the bill was to obtain aco strol by the Edinburgh ---.0...-.--.
I-- of that measure of education for Ireland at a time when of the public was concerned, Society,wlls to the advents e
g established by
41, the system was imperfectly understood-at a time when the former. The former authorised •ed no interference the laity. But there was another fact still and Glasgow Company over the Caledonian Company. LIVERPOOL, JUNE 17. .nt
more remarkable, in the case of workhouse schools, which
rej nobody would have dreamt of giving grants to all religious with religious opinion, the latter interfered with real- had been put by the laity, having the management of these very Isti°/- t
Mr. GLYN also opposed the bill. STOCK EXCHANGE -The mark t h been -
is bodies as is done now ; when it was necessary to do some- gious opinions. The former had a mixed board, composed unions, under the National Board. There were in Ireland Mr. BLACKBURN would not put the house to the t d• • e as
' titer°
Len thing for Ireland, with the view of making the education of members of all denominations; the latter had a board 163 uione in 13) of which the workhouse schools had d• idi
trouble of iv ng. o- ay, ender rho influence of Lord Palmerston a 8 ' 10
burn
nia
rpu thee,r6icent- O x, American
foclrodsq: question s tsitoena
Worcester,i
inl
yt.
ah
ne
Caledonian,
ei of fbn
;CT
no3:1;00° ;Ip 8
rit
oo
to there more expansive than it was before, and when it was composed solely of members of the Church of England. been placed b the board of guardians. under the national The amendment was agreed t, and the bill rejected. night, and rices mast be noted et an advance of froys3lo4#.
ion equally necessary to get rid of the religious objections which The school teachers. of one were of all denominations, hoard! The the
riy of the Establisa e 1 Church kept away The house adjourned at ten minutes past one.
cal Boman Catholics entertained to the previous system. But - while the school teachers of the other belonged exclusively from the nationa schools because they were opposed to
ith now that 20 years have passed over our heads, and mate- to the Church. The Kildare-street Society authorised the their religious convictions • but they did not keep away hir, ,s,
cent. stock, 101i-Midlands 80 i -East Lanfae.,__Elcur.,
„. rial changes have taken place both in England and Ireland, Douai version of the Bible without note or comment-the from the national schools of' wi;hlthouses, which were con- . PARLIAMENTARY DIVISION. -Ditto, Pref., 1-sth shares, 'Five per cent., 6.tf s vaster'
ale lam happy to say that in making the present proposition Church Elucation Society permitted none but the &nth°. ducted upon precisely similar principles, because they were of lam making identically the some proposition which Lord. rise(' version. The Kildare-street Society did not allow retained as chaplains to the boards of uardians • (Hear, . . -_-_-..- - Eastern, 211 2-North Eastern, Berwick, 201 i I,r, '''DittoP
put Derby mad;to the committee of the House of Lords on a the formulary or catechism of the English Church-the hear, and Oh, oh.) Now there was only one other point HOUSE OF COMMONS.-JUNE 17. Counties, 104 -Great Western of Canada, 2" , ;
new shares, 33 p.-Shetlields, SW -Dutch Rhenishdh'
he careful examination of the whole subject. He proposed Church Educe II .n Society allowed both the formulary and to which, in_ couchilion; he would refer. The right hon. ' EDUCATION (IRELAND). yoL:II.IIZ.e-e-tleTec.asitgei aimil_YAlliod.iileilevr94.i-d.lsio_ndril dot
ed four resolutions, the two last and most important of which the catechi m. So that as far as confidence was concerned, gentleman (Mr- WalPole) came forward in that house as Motion made and Question _proposed, " That an humble ll
it were • 51.... t. nrs.lfi.farongt was me... 1:1-1.- s.- t._ -------1 L.- ...t._ -rr:i ..

Motion made and Question proposed, "That an bumble
Address be presented to her Majesty, praying that her
Majesty will be graciously pleased to direct that such
roottifications may be made in the rules of the National
System of Education in Ireland, as will extend the ad-
vantages now enjoyed by non-vested schools to any other
than vested schools now existing, or hereafter to be es-
tablished, whatever their regulations may be as to the
mode of religious instruction ; provided that no children
shall be compelled to learn any catechism, creed, or for.
mulary to which their parents or guardians may object;
and provided that the patrons shall be willing to place
such schools in connection with the Board, to permit the
Board's control over books to be used in general iustruc.
tion, and to receive officially the visits of the Govern•
meat inspeetors."—Motion made and Question put :
Ayes, 113; Noes, 103.

LIVERPOOL, ,jurril 17. „avaDti,
STOCK EiCOHANGE.—The market has been veryout'e-n)el
to-day, under the influence of Lord Palmerston's 8
on the American question in the House of Comln°ns to
night, and prices must be noted at an advance of froys3lo4cr
14 per cent., closing steadily. Caledonian, 311 6 per
barn, 61—Oxford, Worcester, and Wolverharnptonfre, q()
cent. stock, 1014,—Midlands 80 4—East Lanfas, bligottaz_
—Ditto, Prof., 1-sth shares, 'Five per cent., 61 g--gigitsPl
Eastern, 211 2—North Eastern, Berwick, 20i,,17.'"Ditio,
Counties, 104—Great Western of Canada, :4"
„job, P;
W
new shares, 33 p.—Shetlields, S-Dutch Blier
LI 1.11.3. —Lancashire and Yorkshire, 94i—Lonu°-
n
gorth Westerns, 1034 14-Ditto, new, d. 1-4"0
Perth, and Aberdeen, 9i.

MANCHESTER, JUNE 17. nd
STOO S EXCHANGE.—The market has been im
oteu'
as regards prices, and a very good business was tram 'pdSheffield,, 301- Ditto, 31 per cent., 68 n.—ge,nd9t
Windermere, 10k—East —East Lancashire, 101—Lee", itiebi
—Doyen --
, 211 15-16 4Midlands, 80 i i—lsThrth 6 /.16
9—Great Western of Canada, 264 i-131ackblusso -
--Ditto, Pref., 184.

BIRMINGHAM, JUNE 17. 0
i 0
STOOK EXOHANGE.—ThiS market was nnustlalyros saP
to-day, and prices firm. Midlands, 79) i---4-411,3 perbP
North-Western, 103—Midland, Birmingham, and
49) 50—Great Westerns, 62) if.

LEEDS, JUNE 17.
STOCK EXCHANGE. —North Eastern, Leeds, 18 'int
Midland, 70/ 80—Sheffield, 30i—Leeds, 914 --Birja-
ham and Derby, tOh.

DIE PANAMA. RAlLWAY.—lntelligence is brought 7,
the West India packet La Plata, which has just arr!•ng
that the directors of the Panama Railroad are repair'
and strengthening their line. The sleepers and brlio
have given way on account of the native wood use alp
their construction rapidly decaying. The directors for
no w using lignum vita for sleepers and iron
bridges. The line has paid a dividend of 12 per °eat