The Sun.
London, England, 1860-08-14 00:00:00

TEE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, AUGUR° 14,-1860.

This bill was read a third time and passed.
The Poor Relief, &c. (Ireland), Bill, the Chancery Evi-
dence Commissioners Bill, and the European Forces (India)
Bill passed through committee.
The Poor-law Board Continuance Bill, the Local Go-
vernment Supplemental (No. 2) Bill, and the East India
Stock Transfer Bill also passed through committee.
SAVINGS BANK AND FRIENDLY SOCIETIES

that the Government of India, aided no doubt by Mr. Wil-
son's experience, had proposed, and no deubt by that time
carried into law, the most important financial measures that
had been carried for some time. The statements of Mr.
Wilson, which were very much what the Chancellor of the
Exchequer would make in this country, were so clear and
full, that he might dispense with all but a very short sum-
mary of those statements. On the other hand, the proposals
of the Supreme Government had excited great opposition
and great criticism, and had led to a very controversialcor-
respondence with the Government of Madras. The diver-
sity of opinion and of statement was so great, that it was
not so very easy to unravel them, and he feared still more
difficult to render them intelligible to the house. The cor-
respondence on the table consisted almost entirely of that
which had taken place between the Supreme Government
and the Government of Madras in reference to these mea-
sures. The papers on the table referred also to the recall of
Sir C. Trevelyan. On that subject he hoped it was utterly
unnecessary to say a single syllable. Never in the whole
course of his political life had he so painful a duty to per-
form as to recall Sir Charles. He regretted exceedingly
that the necessity for doing so should have deprived India
of the benefit of services which would have been invaluable
in the presidency. His own request was that the whole
of the papers should be laid on the table of the house, to
enable the public to judge of his conduct. He could not
avoid also referring to the loss which both India and this
country had experienced in the death of Lord Elphinstone.
Before going into the income and expenditure of the year
he should refer to the deficit of the last two years. He had
been sometimes accused of taking too gloomy a view of the
finances of India. He could only say that his object always
was to present a true account of them to the house. On the
last occasion that he addressed the house he stated the an-
ticipated deficit in April 1859-60. He was wrong in his es-
timate both of revenue and expenditure. Both were larger
than he anticipated, but the one so: far kept pace with the
other that the deficit was as near as might be as he had
stated it. He had stated the deficit of 1859-60 at £14,707,000,
whereas it was only £14,187,000. For last year he
stated the deficit at £9,281,000, whereas it was £9,981,000.
The estimated deficit for the two years was
£23,988,000, the actual deficit was £24,168,300, the
difference between the estimated and real deficit being
only £lBO,OOO. Such extreme accuracy could of course only
be accidental, but he claimed credit for not having exagge-
rated the evils of the case. (Hear, hear.) He now came
to the revenue and expenditure of the last and present year.
The expenditure in 1859-60 was £45,890,000, the income
£37,796,000, leaving a deficit of £8,094,000. Adding to that
the guaranteed interest on the railroads, £807,000, there
was a deficit of £8,981,000, or in round numbers £9,000,000.
The expenditure for 1860-61 was £43,958,000; the income
£37,762,000, leaving a deficit upon the Indian expenditure
of £6,196,000. Adding to that the guaranteed interest on
the railways, £1,276,000, there being an increase of
£400,000, there remained a deficit of £7,472,000.
There had been some controversies whether this deficiency
could net be made good by a reduction of the military ex-
penditure. But when the house perceived that the de-
ficiency was £7,472,000, and that the military expenditure
as estimated was £15,276,000, it would see that it was im-
possible to reduce that expenditure to so low an amount as
£8,000,000, which was £3,000,000 below the expenditure of
1856-57, when the mutiny broke out. Was any one so
sanguine as to suppose that the military expenditure could
be reduced £3,000,000 below the amount at which it stood
the year before the mutiny broke out ? The estimate on
the table of the house proposed a reduction of £2,600,000,
and if to that they added a further reduction of £7,400,000,
there must be a reduction of £10,000,000 on the military
expenditure of the present year. It was impossible to sup-
pose that any such reduction ceuld be effected. The Go-
vernment of Bombay proposed a reduction of £655,000, and
that of Madras, £591,000, making a total reduction of
£2,600,000, so that th 3 remainder of the reduction, if it
could be effected, must be made in Bengal. The greatest
pressure had been put upon these governments to make re •
ductions. They were becoming aware of the necessity of
making them. The Government of Madras had reduced
its expenditure to the extent of £330,000, but the Govern-
ment of Bombay had actually increased its expenditure,
which was £197,000 higher than during the mutiny. The
remainder of the reduction was effected in Bengal, which
was more susceptible of it. In the two last years the mili-
tary reductions altogether amounted to £6,000,000, of which
£3,400,000 was effected in 1859-60, and £2,600,000 in 1860-
1861. He confessed he was not sanguine enough to suppose
that the reductions could be carried on in a greater ratio than
that. Lord Canning and Mr. Doran both expressed their
opinion that the reductions could not safely be carried on
at a more rapid rate. Such was the state of affairs for the
present year. But they must of course look beyond the
present year, and see what the prospect of reduction was
for some time forward. They took 1856-57, the year be-
fore the mutiny, as a pattern year. Now, the increase
on account of pure military expenditure since that year
was £3,785,000. But there was besides this a sum of
£333,000, the cost of a certain number of provisional bat-
talions which were not under the Commander-in-Chief.
There was an increase of £141,000 in the cost of the troops
going out to India. The charge at home for the greater
number of Queen's troops in India was £1,195,000—
making the increased charge for the military expenditure
£5,454,000. But with the military charge you must more
or less include the increased cost of the police. The increase
in the police since 18.56-57 was £1,024,000. The increase
in the military charge therefo?e was £6,478,000. There
was also another charge which was properly a military one,
namely, a charge for military buildings and barracks for the
European troops. The European soldier in India was a
costly thing, and it was not reasonable or fair that he should
be sent out to India without providing for him sufficient ac-
commodation and the means of preserving his health.
These barracks were so constructed as to be capable of de-
fence and of affording protection to ladies and invalids in
case of any sudden outbreak. (Hear.) This expenditure
had increased from £374,000 to £1,827,000 in 1859-60.
There had been a stoppage of public works for civil pur-
poses during this time. As he anticipated that there would
be a mere transfer of this expenditure from military to civil
purposes, be did
Snot think that any reduction of expendi-
ture could be looked for under this head. Since 1856-7
there had been an increase in the cost of collection of
£476,000; in th 3 civil and political establishments of
£508,000; in the judicial establishments of £163,000; in
the public works of £452,000 ; and in various miscellaneous
items of £124,000. Upon these heads of expenditure he did
not anticipate any reduction. On the contrary, there was a
general demand for an increase in the civil and judicial esta-
blishments. The total of the increase in the civil charge was
£1,725,000. There was another item of increase which was
not susceptible of reduction, namely, the interest on the debt.
The debt in the former period was £59,442,000, and the an-
nual interest £2,525,000. But we added to, the debt so
much that at the end of the last year it was £97,851,000,
the interest on which was L 1,461,000, being an increased
annual charge of £1,906,000. Beyond that, there is the in-
crbased guarantee of the railways. The interest of money
advanced to the railways was in 1856-7, £404,000; next
year, after deducting the receipts, it was £520,000 ; the
next year, £606,000 ; the year after, £807,000 ; and in the
present year, after deducting the receipts, £1,276,000 ;
being au increase of £872,000 on railway interest. The sum
total of this increased expenditure since 1856-7 was—
military, £5,451,000 ; police, £1,024,000 ; making a total
of £6,478,000. Civil expenditure, including buildings,
£1,725,000 ; interest on the debt, £1,936,000 ; guaranteed
interest on railways, £872,000 ; and out of these items he
did not see any prospect of reduction. The total increase of
charge was £11,011,800. During the same time the revenue
had increased partly by an improved revenue from old
sources, partly from additional taxation, by a sum of
£4,400,000, and it was estimated that this might be taken as
a fair specimen of the recovery of the Indian revenue after
the recovery from the effects of the mutiny. For the year
1861-62, therefore, supposing that no new taxes were to b 3
imposed, and that the increase of revenue was estimated at
£4,400,000, there would be a deficit of £6,611,000. Then of
course came the question how was that deficit to be dealt
with ? Were they to borrow ? Surely after what he had
stated to the house no man would be so unwise as to advise
an increase to the annual charge arising from borrowing.
(Hear, hear.) He thought the system of open loans had been
the greatest temptation to expenditure in India in former
years, and that the Government never would much trouble
their heads about expenditure as long as that source of supply
was open to them. He therefore believed that the noble lord
opposite (Stanley), when he insisted on closing the ope' loan
system, conferred one of the greatest boons on India, for
it forced economy upon the Government, (Hear, hear.)
He believed also that the refusal of that house to guarantee
the interest of the Indian debt had a tendency of the same
kind.. (Hear, hear.) These two things combined had the
effect of.throwing the government of India upon their own
resources; and the fact that they were solely responsible
for the finances of India would be the greatest inducement
to them to practice that economy for which, he must say,
they had not hitherto been distinguished. Although at
first sight it might seem somewhat hard to make India pay,
a higher amount of interest than she would do if this coun-
try guaranteed the debt, he believed that advantage would
be more than counterbalanced by the economy which must
result from the knowledge that India must rely on her own
resources. If, then, they were not to borrow, and if there
were no prospect of reduced expenditure, there wasno other
alternative but the imposition of taxation. His conviction
was, after the closest examination of the papers, and with
the greatest anxiety to see his way to a practical reduction
of expenditure, that it was perfectly impossible, within such
a period as they contemplated, to effect such a reduction of
expenditure as would bring that expenditure within the
present amount of taxation. Various opinions had been
expressed as to the various sources of taxation. The pro-
duce of all tb.ejexisting taxes, customs, salt, opium, and
stamps, was included within their consideration. Some
hon. gentlemen seemed to think that the price of opium
might be increased, but the opium produced a net
revenue this year less by £576,000 than last year.
Surely it would not be wise to rely upon opium As a source
of income. Well, they had then to come to a scheme of
taxation. It would appear that a mode of raising a further
income in India had been under discussion for the last year
and a half. A bill was introduced in the council for the
license tax in the luramer of 1859, and though the govern-
7aent of Madras objected to 'any additional taxation, yet a
waeisded opinion was given by the Treasury that the time
come for the imposition of new taxes, As 800 P: as

Mr. Wilson had art rived in India he proceeded to meet Lord
Canning, going as iar as Lahore, thus communicating with
all the principal fu mctionaries along the whole of the line.
He then came dow .n to Calcutta, and brought in bills to pro-
vide for the revenue, half by licenses, half by income tax ;
and with the entirt approbation of the Governor-General,
and the fullest con sent of all parties in India, the bills were
put into the shape an which they now were. He (Sir C.
Wood) believed no other coarse was open ; and a very re-
markable circumsts tnce connected with these papers was
that Sir B: Frere gi we it as his opinion that additional taxa -
tion was not necessa .ry, as by a reduction of expenditure such
a course might be a voided. If gentlemen would refer to one
of the minutes in th ese papers they would see that in the

Madras presidency, .out of about 1,500,000 landholders there
were only 800 who paid, the taxes to which they were as-
sessed. He (Sir C, Wood) did not know if hon. members
had seen a letter addr eased to Mr. Wilson by the Mahara-
jah of Burdwan, assuring him that he felt very sensibly the
. .

value of the protection .of the English Government to life
and property, and expressing his opinion that the land-
holders ought readily to pay their taxes in consideration of
that protection, which he thought was highly creditable to
the Maharajah. With regard to the tobacco tax, it was to
be levied, not on the land on which it was grown, but on
the persons selling it. Looking, then, at all the circum-
stances of the case, and believing there was no other alter-
native than that, unless they were prepared to raise addi-
tional taxes, they must go on in a ruinous system of bor-
rowing, he was of opinion they should give their best sup-
port to the Government of India, who were, after all, the
persons responsible, and the best judges of what was want-
ing and what was not wanting; and he (Sir C. Wood) was
strongly of opinion that the less we interfered with the Go-
vernment of India the better and safer it would be, and the
better we should be prepared to give them our most cordial
support. By the last despatches he received from India he
found that the Government there did not conceive that any
very large sum would be raised by this new taxation, not
much more than £1,000,000, and that next year it would
produce about £3,600,000. The pure military expenses
would be £17,000,000, and the police expenses nearly
£2,000,000. On the whole, he thought we had a very rea-
sonable prospect that at the_ end of the year 1861.62 we
might bring the income and expenditure to a level, and in
the course of three or four years he hoped the ordinary in.
come might be equal to the ordinary expenditure. (Hear.)
He might further state that the prices of produce were
rising in all parts of India, and so were the wages of la-
bour; and in Madras there was full employment for every
one. (Hear, hear.) Therefore, he might fairly say, " Give
us time, and if peace is preserved in India, there is every
prospect of India beaming prosperous." But the more im-
mediate question was how to provide for the year 1861-62.
He answered, that he proposed to do so by drawing on the
balances in the Treasury, which this year were extraordi-
narily high. They borrowed last year sooner than they in-
tended, and a loan of £5,000,000 was raised. At first the
loan was not very successful, and only a small amount of it
was subscribed when he addressed the house in Aug. last.
It was then considered that the estimated probable portion
of that loan raised in India would be only £1,700,000, but
the very next mail which came from India stated it was
estimated at £1,800,000, showing that there was only a dif-
ference of £lOO,OOO between his (Sir C. Wood's) estimate
and that of the Indian Government. It might be asked
why then he was going to borrow now a sum of £3,000,000.
His answer was that he wanted that sum to meet the con-
tingencies of the proprietors of railways in India, amount-
ing to £7,000,000—of that sum about £1,500,000 would be
disbursed in India. Therefore he was obliged to ask for
this loan of £3,000,000, lest the portion which should be
raised in India would fail, though he hoped the whole sum
would be raised by the railway companies. But in one way
or other, either from the money market of this country or
from some other source, those £7,000,000 must be raised the
first year for the railroads in India. (Hear.) With respect
to the customs duties, some had been raised and others
lowered—altogether the whole had been equalised. Upon
this subject, however, we had not very much complaint. A
commission had been appointed to investigate the subject,
in which the Chambers of Commerce in Madras and Bom-
bay were represented. It would meet in Calcutta, and the
result of its labours he trusted would be that the new duties
would press fairly on all classes. Various other measures
had been taken to consolidate and arrange financial matters,
and regulate the balances in the numerous treasuries, and
he hoped by the end of the year to have 1.200 or 1,300 miles
open. All the anticipated objections of the natives to the
railroads have proved to be without foundation, end there
was no doubt they would be extremely profitable, though
some of the works were very heavy, and a very large ex-
penditure was necessary:for completing them. Full particu-
lars respecting the progress of the railways would be found
in an able report which had recently been laid on the table
by an officer in the Indian service. The sum of £52,000,000
would be required to complete the lines, of which X 36,500,000
had been authorised, and £29,500,000 had been paid up—
£25,250,000 by shares, and £4,250,000 by debentures. None
of the lines had been opened as yet between clear termini,
notwithstanding which the traffic had been very favourable,
and there was every reason to believe that when the lines
were fully opened between the principal termini the traffic
returns would exceed all expectations which had been
hitherto entertained. The electric telegraph had been
opened to the extent of 11,500 miles, but he must confess
' that with respect to the submarine portion of it he was not
very sanguine, although they had once received a message
in six days from Calcutta. They were preparing to carry
on the telegraph from Singapore to Calcutta, which would
materially shorten the distance. With respect to public
works, they had been very much at a stand still, officers
having been required for the purpose either of military
duties or to superintend the erection of military works.
That necessity, however, had now passed, and they would
be able to devotetheir attention again to the public works
which were of the greatest possible value to the country.
They were going on rapidly in the Punjaub—the road to
Peshawur was in progress, and also a tunnel beneath the
Indus. A shaft had already been sunk forty feet below the
level of the river, and the tunnel when completed would be
a most valuable work. Works of irrigation were progress-
ing throughout the country, and an expenditure had been
authorised which would open out 70 canals through the
province of Scinde, and they were being carried out as fast
as the state of the labour market wonld permit. Improve-
ments were also being effected in the harbour of Kurrachee,
and in Bengal roads were being made, principally with a
view to open up communications with railroad stations.
Negotiations were going on with the Madras Irrigation
Company, and he had been in communication with the Go-
vernor-General as to the terms upon which the proposed
works were to be proceeded with. The Government had
been asked to take particular steps in reference to the God-
every Irrigation Improvements, but the steps they were
called upon to take would involve the rights to the banks of
the river, which the Government had no power to concede,
inasmuch as they were bound to respect the rights of the
native princes. Consequently, nothing catald be dons in
that direction until they had obtained the consent of the
native princes, but he did not anticipate any difficulty in the
matter. Many improvements had been authorised for the
accommodation of the cotton trade, the object being to
provide a convenient port on the coast for that trade.
They had also authorised the construction of docks at
Bombay, and they had been in communication with
the Indian Government on the question. Before proceed-
ing further, he felt bound to pay a tribute to the con-
duct of Lord Canning, who had used great exertions
to remove the prejudices of the natives, and who had been
invariably animated by the most benevolent motives,
though somehow or other his efforts had not aiways been
attended with success. Of late years the system of go-
vernment which had been established in the North-
Western Provinces had been most successful, but unfortu-
nately the attempt to carry out a similar system in Oude
had not been so successful as might have been desired, and
had resulted in the destruction of all the old landlords. It
was fancied that a great benefit would be conferred upon
the ryots by the suppression of the Talookdars, but the
people rose up and, turning out the legal owners, reinstated
the hereditary landlords, show ing that they preferred the
old system, although the Talookdars had exercised their
powers with the greatest injustice. The mistake which had
been made had been in attempting to introduce all at once a
systemforeign to the habits of the people. Curiously enough,
what had been called the confiscation by Lord Canning of
the property of the Talookdars had in reality amounted to
the reinvestment of the land in the Talookdars. The Ta •
lockdars, however, had evinced a disposition to discharge
the new duties which devolved upon them with justice
and impartiality. A similar course would be adopted in
reference to the Punjab and the Sirdars, and he trusted
that it would be attended with beneficial results. In
northern India what was termed the system of adoption had
been recognised, and the announcement of the intentions of
the government had produced a most favourable impression
on the minds of the native princes. He believed that the
policy which had been adopted, together with the introduc-
tion of English capital, would ultimately produce prosperity
in India, and contribute to the happiness of the vast popu-
lations under her Majesty's dominion in that empire.
Mr. IL SEYMOUR said he never heard a more unsatis-
factory statement, or he would say a more unfair speech.
The right hon. gentleman stated the deficit at £7,000,000,
and said that was the lowest point to which the Govern-
ment of India could reduce it. But Mr. Wilson said that
that deficit might be reduced now to £5,700,000. He quoted
a passage from Mr. Wilson to this effect. But Mr. 11 ilson
did not get down to this point till hardly pressed by Sir C.
Trevelyan. He quoted the opinions of Sir C. Trevelyan,
who stated that in Bombay and Madras the military ex-
penditure might be still further greatly reduced. The right
hon. gentleman stated that there was rather an increase
than a decrease in the military expenditure in the minor
presidencies within the last year; but according to the au-
thority of Lord Elphinstone and Sir C. Trevelyan, the ex-
penditure ought not to be greater than before the year of
the mutiny ; and Sir C. Trevelyan added that the increased
expenditure in the Madras presidency was attributable to
the sluggish delays in decisions and operations of the Coun-
cil. The formation of police was of great importance; but
to that there were also great delays, and while it was on
the one hand said that such a force would increase the ex-
penditure to two millions and a half, it was on the other
shown that the expenditure for such a force would not
exceed £140,000 a-year, and that statement was supported
by the authority of the chief of police, who was engaged in
forming and organising the force. But while the larger

estimate was submitted to them the• would have but one
policeman to every 1,000 of the population, and those were
some of the reasons why the right hm, gentleman had not
kept down the expenditure. Sir Charles Trevelyan said,
on the other hand, that having made India his study for
the greater part of his life, he was confident that the ex-

penditure might be reduced to £11,500,000, being the ex-
penditure of the year before the mutiny. Now, all the
expenditure was not for the actual aid active military force
in India—on the contrary, more than one-half of it was for
the commissariat and other auxiliary military departments.

Sir Charles Trevelyan very justly said that not only had
Mr. Wilson over-stated the expense of the army, but he
had under-stated the estimates. The land revenue and the
salt tax were decreasing. He was of opinion that, with
proper management and government, the magnificent pro-
perty of the Ganges alone would yield a greater return than
the whole of British India had yielded in the course of the

100 years that it had, been subjected to British rule. He

could not find that Mr. Wilson, in his estimates, had ever
taken into account any reduction at all in the army. But
Sir Patrick Grant had shown that several regiments of in-
fantry, and somo of cavalry, and of other branches of the

service, might be safely disbanded, were it not for the ap-
prehension that a rising of the population might take place!
as a consequence of the infliction of new taxation. (Hear.)
They were, however, told that a sum of £1,500,000 was to
be expended on the erection of new barracks, and that an-
other sum of £1,500,000 was to b© expended in the con-
struction of forts, so that they were to have within less
than two years an additional sum of taxation amounting

to no less than £3;000,000 for barracks and forts. Now ho
had a friend, M. de Brialmont, who wrote the best life of
the Duke of Wellington, and that distinguished author
was at present engaged in writing a book to show how
India could be governed by a very small number of troops.
He was therefore apprehensive that Mr. -Wilson, in his
estimates, was wasting money, and he should like to know

from him whether he was taking the proposed money for
the whole expenditure to be incurred, or whether he
meant that application should be made hereafter to this

country for a much larger sum of money. And while this
increased expenditure was proposed, he found that
the civil works in India had been stopped—those works
which Sir Charles Trevelyan spoke so highly of, likening
them to a California, from which a rich mine of gold might
be reaped—works from which there was a return of from 40
to 60 per cent. He (Mr. H. Seymour) maintained, then,
that it was madness in the Government to stop the progress
of public works in India. But after stopping the public
works—works from which, according to Sir Charles Tre-
velyan, they might " reap fields of gold," why should they
burden the people with increased taxation ? (Hear, hear.)
He could not but regret that the suggestions of Lord Dal-
housie on that part of the resources of India had not been
carried out. With respect to the formation and results of
railways in India, he expected that a very large sum must
ultimately be derived. The right hon. gentleman had,
amongst other things, spoken of currency, and on that part
of the subject he (Mr. H. Seymour) begged to remark that,
in Russia, the Government of that empire paid the troops
in paper currency in the most distant parts of the vastly ex-
tended territory. He (Mr. H. Seymour) in speaking on
that part of the question, begged to say that he was of
opinion that railways must pay in India, and he should like
to see them carried out there in the most extended way,
even to Cape Cormorin. It was throwing money away to
make a turnpike road when a railway could be constructed.
As to the mutiny, that was caused by bad government, and
a 0,000,000 was spent in suppressing that which might have
been prevented by ordinary foresight. Rack-rents and op-
pression of the ryots had wrought much mischief in India.
The noble lord the member for King's Lynn had done much
to benefit India. He ordered the fee simple of the land to
be sold in certain cases, and Sir C. Trevelyan had done
much to carry out the prudent resolves of the noble lord
(Stanley), and had their views been carried out the most
satisfactory results would have ensued. Last year the
military expenditure was nearly three-fourths of the whole
revenue of India. It was absolutely necessary that that
expenditure should be reduced. Then there was £123,000
voted for ecclesiastical expenditure, independently of what
was paid to chaplains. The Dissenters had done much,
and without any expense to the State, for the promotion of
Christianity in India; and he thought that no funds what-
ever should be voted for any such purpose. He thought
the religious movement should be carried out wholly on the
voluntary principle, and that no religious State establish-
ment should be paid for India. The ministers of the
Established Church were a kind of civil service officers,
and also a sort of aristocracy ; and, without meaning any-
thing disparaging to them, he did not think they were so
active or so useful as the Dissenting missionaries. In
looking at the accounts he found that Bengal and the
north-western provinces showed a surplus, while Bombay
and Madras showed a deficit. He should Mu, to see such
a statement of accounts as would enable the house exactly
to know the state of the finances of these respective places.
He believed that the affairs of India would never be satis-
factorily conducted so long as the right hon. gentleman
persisted in the course which he had pursued aim his ap-
pointment to the Indian Secretaryship. He diWrot think
that the right hon. gentleman had displayed the same
energy as the noble lord the member for King's Lynn in
enforcing and carrying out a reduction of expenditure. He
contended•that the Government was not justified in recall.
ing Sir C. Trevelyan.
Mr. EWART thought the Government could not do
otherwise than recal Sir C. Trevelyan, and said he trusted
that when the police were efficient in India they would be
able to reduce the military expenditure of that country.

Mr. GREGSON said he was favourable to the mode by
which the right hon. gentleman (Sir C. Wood) proposed to
raise the money to be provided for India. He trusted that
they would be able to reduce the military expenditure of
that count. Jr.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY was glad to find that the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer had not asked for borrowing powers
larger than would give Wm the means of raising £3,000,000.
But he must take that opportunity of expressing his appre-
hensions in reference to the financial state of India. When
Mr. Wilson went to India he for-id that there was a deficit
of £3,100,000 arising out of various items left out of the
accounts. Considering that the expenditure of India for
the last three years was on an average £50,000,000 a-year,
he looked NI ith great fear as to the resell of the experiment
about to be made in relation to an income tax fn that country.
Mr. ROEBUCK called attention to the case of those who
had sustained losses by the revolt in India. The law in
England was that in such cases compensation for damages
was made by the hundred, which in India was represented
by the Geyer, ament of course. He complained that the
right hon. gentleman had one day promised compensation
for losses of moveable and immoveable property, giving in
the one caselhalf, and in the other one-third of the value of
the property so lost, to the extent cf £1,000,000, whereas, a
day or two aSterwards, he sent a despatch to India, in which
he said the Government had decided to give compensation
to the extent of one-half on losses not exceeding 2,000r5.,
and where the losses were over that amount that I,ooors.
would be awarded, and one-third of the sum by which the
loss should exceed 2,000r5. With regard to cash, jewels,
&c., the right hon. gentleman, in the same despatch, said
Government had decided to pay in no case compensation
exceeding 5,000r5. Now, the right hon. gentleman had said
India would not prosper till they get for it the advantage
of English capital ; but they would not get English capital
whilst, by such conduct as this, they fostered a feeling of
insecurity. Instead of having the advantage of English
capital, they would starve the country for want of it if they
pursued such fantastic courses. Next he came to the case of
the insurance companies. The Government had induced
the civilians to enter into militmy serN:ce during the mu-
tiny, and this had been fatal to the lives of many. The in-
surance companies had honourably paid the claims under
the policies on these lives, and called upon the Government
to reimburse them for the payments so made. This the
Government refused to do, but he warned them that they
had not heard the last of this subject. It would come up
again next session with re !oubled force, and he pressed
upon her Majesty's Ministers till the claimants at length
made up their minds that it was useless to appeal to the
British House of Commons to see that justice should be
done them. (Hear, hear,)
Sir DE LACY'EVANS supported this view of the case,
on the ground that the Government had encouraged these
civilians to enter upon those military duties in the pursuit
of which they hlid lost their lives. The Government, he
thought, was bound to deal liberally with such cases. He
should not attempt he said to follow the right hon. gentle-
man into his voluminous statement, but would make a re-
mark or two on the military parts of it. He was glad to
find that suitable barracks were to be erected in India, with
secure places for the women and the treasure. This no
doubt would cost a large sum of money. He agreed with
the right hon. gentleman as to the loss which India had
sustained in the removal of Sir Charles Trevelyan. (Hoax.)
He would not enter into the causes of it; but, considering
his great abilities, he thought some less severe and more
intermediate course than removal might have been adopted.
(Hear.) But the step had been taken and was now irrevoc-
able. The whole of the distresses which the right hon.
gentleman had detailed rested on the fact of the immense mili-
tary establishment kept up in Bengal. In 1857 we were taken
unawares, with 45,000 troops—perhaps only about 40,000
when the mutiny broke out, and yet the neck of it was broken
without additional troops by the downfal of Delhi, which was
accomplished without a gun or a soldier from England. No
doubt Oude gave us much trouble subsequently, but Delhi
was the turning point, and that was conquered with 40,000
troops. The people of India did not sympathise with the
revolt; it was confined to the sepoys and their connexions
in Oude. Yet no conquest was ever more complete. No
fewer than 1,000 of the forts of the Talookdars had been
rased to the ground, and a million and a half of arms had
been taken from the people. (Hear, hear.) Still troops
were being continually sent out. (Hear, hear.) The danger
arose from our having much too large a native army, and
our present policy was, therefore, to increase our European
and to decrease our native forces. No doubt our European
forces had been augmented, hut our native army had been
augumented also ; and how could the finances of the coma
try be expected to bear it ? This would account for the
lamentable financial exhibition which the right hon. gentle-
man had been compelled to make. What was the meaning
of this great European force in India? No doubt, as the
right hon. gentleman had said, any reduction must be
made gradually; but, so far as he could see, there had been

no reduction at all. He very much disapproved of so large '
a force being kept up.
Mr. VANSIT T ART quoted Mr. Wilson against conti-
nuing to borrow in the time of peace. The most serious
fact connected with the finances of India was, he said,
that since the beginning of the present century, with the
exception of fifteen years, there had been a deficit larger or
smaller in amount, till the Indian debt had reached
£97,851,807, of which £38,410,755 had been incurred by
the mutiny of our Bengal native Sepoy army. It was
thought that Mr. Wilson would have to encounter a deficit

of a few millions, but it had proved to be fifteen millions.
Much allowance, therefore, must be made for some severi-

ties of ta7.ation, but he did riot at all auee wlth his income
tax scheme, the result of which he thought would consi-

derably disappoint the Government.

Mr. CRAWFORD was prepared to give his support to
the resolution. With respect to the income tax, he was of
opinion that if levied by the natives themselves, it would be
productive of great good, and would not be attended, as ap-
prehended by some hon. gentlemen, with any bad conse-
quences.

Mr. T. BARING thought tho questions relating to the
affairs of India had not been fairly dealt with that night by
some hon. members. Complaints had been made that the
right hon. gentleman the Secretary of State for India had
appointed gentlemen to sinecure situations in that part of
the empire, and that he bad appointed an Englishman to a
situation there who had never been in, and who knew nothing
whatever of the affairs of India. But those statements were

not founded in fact. The right hon. gentleman had been
taunted also on the subject of the Indian accounts. But

what was the fact ? Why, that was the first year that the

current accounts of the year had been laid on the table.

With regard to the public works, those railways only were
put a stop to which it was knew., from the difficulties of
the country through which they were being carried, would
not give a compensatory return. But compensatory allow-
ance had been made to the parties who undertook those
works, up to the point at which they had been stopped. An
hon. gentleman contended that a diminution of £2,000,000
ought to have been effected in the military expenditure in
India in the years 1859-1860 ; but it was shown that a
very considerable decrease had been made in the military
expenditure in those years, and the committee, he
thought, ought to rely upon the council to make such
decrease ix the expenditure as to them should seem ev ise
and desirable. The right hon. gentleman had been also
accused of creating new offices since he was appointed
Secretary of State for India; but so far from
that being the case, he had not only not created new
offices, but he abolished some old ones, and amongst them
that of the keeper of the museum. The Secretary of State
for India has so much simplified the postal arrangements
with India that very little time is lest in conducting our
communications with that country. In the matter of tax-
ation also great improvements had been made, and the
officials were so regulated that the public business was
conducted with the utmost facility. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. AYRT ON thought that it would have been desir-
able to have referred the whole of this matter to a select
committee. At this period of the session however, that was
not practicable. It was impossible for the House of Com-
mons to conclude, in their present state of information, that
the proposed taxes were necessary. Sir C. Trevelyan and
other high authorities were of opinion that if the financial
affairs of India were properly managed the expenditure
could be reduced below what it was before the mutiny
occur eed ; and yet, without any satisfactory information,
the right hon. gentleman asked for £3,000,000 additional.
He (Mr. Ayrton) thought the Legislative Councinn India
a solemn and expensive farce, and that the sooner it was
abolished the better.
After a few words from Mr. GREGSON and Major
PARKER,
Sir C. "WOOD stated, in reply to the observations of the
hon. member for the Tower Hamlets, that the bill was
brought forward as soon as possible after the receipt of im-
portant financial despatches. With regard to the hon. mem-
ber for Poole, he quite despaired of satisfying him. His
own sins, while Under-Secretary for India, he attempted
to throw on his (Sir C. Wood's) shoulder. He might say,
however, that he was not aware of any intention
of expending money from the revenues of India on
improvements at the Point de Galle. Then his hon. friend
the member for Sheffield complained of the expense of the
ecclesiastical establishments of India. All he (Sir C.Wood)
had done in the matter was to fill up the vacancies which
had occurred. The hon. member for Poole (Mr. Danby
Seymour) had also complained that the military reduction
in India had not been carried out to the extent it ought to
have been. He believed that the papers laid upon the table
of the house proved the contrary of this ; and he must also
say that the information in the papers upon this and all other
points was full and complete. He contended that it was
impossible to reduce the expenditure of the army in India to
the extent of £10,000,000, as suggested by the hon. gentle-
man. The-right hon. gentleman then justified the appoint-
ment of Sir George Clerk as Governor of Bombay, and also
the appointment of Mr. Melville as Under -Secretary of the
India Board. He admitted that he was the author of the
Legislative Council of India, and although it had not
worked as well as ho could have wished, still good legisla-
tive measures had emanated from it. The Customs duties in
India were not imposed for protection, but for revenue pur-
poses. What he said with respect to the subject of irriga.-
ion was, that if the Irrigation Company did not carry out
he system fully the Government wonld not do it.
The resolution was then agreed to, and the house re-

sumed.
FORTIFICATION (PROVISION FOR EXPENSES)
BILL.
The house then went into committee on this bill,
Clauses from 1 to 18 were agreed to.
Sir F. SMITH moved to reduce the vote for the works at
Portsmouth by the sum of £200,000. Tho commissioners
themselves did not propose to complete these works at once,
but to leave the connecting links between the eight works to
some future time, and that was a sufficient justification for
his motion. The enemy would come boldly and resolutely
to attack their arsenals, and if they were to have men to de-
fend them and their fortifications, they would have a compa-
ratively small force to that which they otherwise would to
take the field. How in that case could they meet a French
army. If they strengthened the works which they have,
far fewer men would be required to defend them than if.
they were not well constructed. Take, for instance, Cha-
tham. There they at present would require only 10,000
men to defend their fortifications, but if they extended the
works they would require 20,000 mento defendthem Their
great object shouldbe not somuch to extend as to strengthen
their defences, by which means they would liberate a large
amount of their whole force to take the field. He main-
tained that according to the way in which they were going
on, they had been wasting money on their fortifications for
years past, and he must protest against this vote. Let them
look, even, to the New Zealanders, and they would see that
they, by their mode of proceeding, were enabled to throw
up works of the most formidable and effective character in
a few hours against the Queen's troops. Was it, then, to
be said that in this country, where they had a great body of
navigators, they would have any difficulty in throwing up
defensive works, if necessary, in a very short time ? (Hear.)
He thought, therefore, that the proposed expense for the
fortifications at Portsmouth was unnecessary, and being of
that opinion, he should propose that the vote for the works
there be reduced to £200,000.
Sir F. GOLD SMID did not pretend to be an authority
upon military fortifications and means of defencp ; but look-
ing at all the circumstances, he was of opinion that the pro-
posed vote was excessive. He saw by the commissioners'
report, which he had carefully perused, that they laid great
stress upon the land defences ; but the great reliance of the
country, as means of resistance, should be upon their navy.
In the third paragraph of the report, the commissioners,
after advancing the most extraordinary conclusions that
the English fleet would lose by some means temporary pos-
session of the Channel, the enemy, in such an event might
effect a landing; but he thought there was no likelihood of
such a probability, seeing that the British fleet having com-
mand of the sea, and knowing what they were about, were
not likely to lose their course, and therefore not to give the
enemy any such chance. The war in Russia, and the more
recent war in Italy, had been referred to. Now, with re-
gard to Russia, the commanders of the invading army had
been able to lay their plans with the same ease that they
would if the Russians had no fleet at all, and seeing that the
Russians had not at all the command of the sea, the com-
missioners had no ground for at all supposing that the Eng-
lish fleet would be reduced to such a condition. The com-
missioners had rather contemptuously referred to the facili-
ties for defence which railroads would afford for the pro-
gress of an invading force through the country, Let them
now turn to the other point raised by the commissioners.
What inference cou'd be drawn from the landing at Genoa
to the landing of hostile forces in England ? Where forces
were landed on the shores of a country whose population
were favourable to the invaders, the case was very dif-
ferent from an attempt to land hostile forces where the
inhabitants were disposed for resistance. Therefore, the
report of the commissioners did not at all apply to this
country, and the recommended expenditure should not be
approved of, but the whole of our outlay should be on our
sea defences. He therefore hoped the motion of his hon.
and gallant friend would be approved of. (Hear.)
Mr. S. HERBERT differed in opinion from the hon.
gentleman as to the necessity of land defences. Every man
of common sense must perceive at once the advantage of
such modes of defence. Sir J. Burgoyne, and the greatest
military authorities, were of opinion that those land forti-
fications were nec2ssary. The commission only proposed
what every engineer officer approved of. Sir W. Napier
and General S. Kennedy approved of this plan of land for-
tification. Last year Sir J. Burgoyne in his evidence deli-
berately stated that such works were absolutely necessary.
The proposals made by the Government were made with
the sanction of a committee, consisting of Lord Palmerston,
the Duke of Cambridge, Sir Howard Douglas, and a num-
ber of other distinguished military authorities. Sir Howard
Douglas's advice was to make the sea defences first, and
that was what the Government desired to do. It would be
unwise to postpone making sea defences until the last fields
works, which, when an emergency arose, would be most
important. When they had an opportunity of making a
complete and comprehensive plan, why should they leave
out any of the details ? He hoped the house would not con-
sent to the proposition of the hon. and gallant member.
Colonel DICKSON gave the amendment his cordial sup-
port, He did not think the 14n4 defences Accessary, There

C~4+~~.'

was not at this moment a standing army of sufficient
strength in the event of an invasion, and he objected that
money should be wasted on land fortifications when it could
be much better expended in adding to the strength and
efficiency of the army. The militia too was in a most un-
satisfactory state, and as long as it was conducted on the
present system the militia would never be an efficient force.

Mr. NEWDEGATE said that if an invasion was pos-
sible it was right that they should be prepared to oppose
it. He could not, therefore, support the amendment. He
could not believe that Portsdown fortification was unne-
cessary, and that being so he would support the proposal.
He heartily supported the vote for the sea defences, but at
the same time they ought to proceed with economy and
caution. He objected to the proposal for a central arsenal.
Mr. BAILLIE COCHRANE said he looked at this in-
crease of the expenditure in the military affairs of the
country with great regret. They were acting with great
inconsistency in regard to the Emperor of the French. Ono
time he was their worthy ally, at another his whole conduct
was to be looked upon with suspicion. Entertaining this
view of the case he would support the amendment before
the house.

The committee then divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment 2B
Against it
Majority against the amendment —5l
The schedule was then agreed to,
SUPPLY.
The reports of the 9th and 10th of August were brough.
up and agreed to.

CONSOLIDATED FUND (£10,000,000) BILL.
This bill passed through committee.
STAMP DUTIES (No. 2) BILL.

This bill passed through committee, and on the motion
of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, the fol-
lowing clause was added :—From and after the• thirty-first
day of December, one thousand eight hundred and sixty,
the allowances granted respectively by the 18th section of
the act passed in the thirteenth and fourteenth years of
her Majesty, chapter ninety-seven, in respect of stamps
for receipts, and by the twenty-fourth section of the act
passed in the seventeenth and eighteenth years of her
Majesty, chapter eighty-three, in respect of stamps for
drafts, bills, and notes, and any allowance granted by or
payable under any other act, in respect of any of the
stamps in this clause mentioned, shall cease ; and in lieu
thereof there shall be granted and allowed to every person
who at one and the same time shall produce at the office of
the Commissioners of Inland Revenue, in London or Dub-
lin, paper to be stamped with stamps for denoting any rate
of duty, not exceeding one shilling on bills of exchange,
drafts, or orders, or promissory notes, or stamps for de-
noting the duty of one penny on any instrument or docu-
ment whatever (except postage stamps and customs stamps)
to the amount of two pounds or upwards in the whole of
all or any of such stamps, and to every person who at one
and the same time shall purchase any such stamps as afore-
said at the office of the said Commissioners,' in London,
Edinburgh, or Dublin, to the amount aforesaid, or of any
distributor or sub-distributor of stamps, at any place not
within the distance of ten miles from the said offices re-
spectively, to the amount of one pound or upwards, an
allowance at and after the rate of four per cent. on the
amount of the duties denoted by such stamps, provided that
no allowance shall be made for any fraction of a pound.
CUSTOMS (No. 2) BILL.
This bill was read a second time.
DEFENCE OF THE REALM BILL.
This bill was read a second time.
SPIRITS BILL.
This bill was read a third time and passed.
SPIRIT DUTIES BILL.
This bill passed through committee.
EXCISE DUTIES BILL.
This bill passed through committee.
PEACE PRESERVATION (IRELAND) ACT (1856)
AMENDMENT BILL.
This bill passed through committee.
The Metropolitan Local Amendment Act Amendment
Bill was adjourned, after which the other orders of the day
wore disposed of, and the house adjourned at half-past
,wo o'clock.

CENTRAL CRIMINAL COURT-Aug. 13,

OLD COURT.

The grand jury returned four true bills for mur-
der against William Godfrey Youngman.
Henry Jones, 27, who was in custody, and David
Wells, Charles Wells, his son ; Richard Lamb, and
Edward Wilson, who surrendered, were indicted
for conspiracy.
Sergeant ',Parry attended, specially with Mr.
Cooper, to conduct the prosecution. Mr. Sleigh,
Mr. Giffard, Mr. Lilley, and Mr. Ernest Jones were
counsel for the defendants.

This was a prosecution instituted by the Great
Northern Railway Company, and the offence im-
puted to the defendants was a fraud not only upon
that company, but also upon the public, of a most
impudent character. The public are aware that
the Great Northern Railway Company is very ex-
tensively concerned in the sale of coals, and have
large depots at King's-cross, and this business is
managed by a Mr. Herbert Clarke. The elder pri-
soner, Wells, it appears, has a coal shed in Clerken-
' well, and it would seem that it was his custom to
purchase coals of the most inferior quality from the
company, and for which he did not pay more than
14s. or 15s. per ton, and then sell the same coals to
the public as best Wallsend coals, and he had bill-
heads printed in such a form as to induce the public
to believe that they were dealing with the Great
Northern Railway Coal Company, and the receipts
were signed " Pro R. Clarke." The difference in
the quality of the coals was not the only fraud to
which the public were subjected, for it appeared
that the prisoners, when they sent in coals to a
customer were in the habit of sending empty sacks
in the van, and in one case they delivered to a gen-
tleman named Millaret, who :lad ordered two tons
of coals, 15 sacks only instead of 20.
The jury, after about half an hour's absence, re-
turned a verdict of not guilty.

SUMAIER ASSIZES.
•

NORTHERN CIRCUIT.—LIVERrooL, Aug. 13.
(Before Mr. Baron Martin.)
This morning Captain Leslie, found guilty at the
last assizes on an indictment for falsely imprisoning
fire Chilian gentlemen, who were political prisoners
sentenced to 4e banished, and who was employed
by the Chilian Government to bring them in his
ship to this country, and land them in Liverpool,
was brought up for judgment. A case having
been reserved for the opinion of the Court of
Criminal Appeal, the conviction was affirmed, that
Court being of opinion that, although perfectly
justified in detaining the prosecutors so long as his
ship was in Chilian waters, yet that their detention
against their will was unlawful when the defendant
had passed out of the boundaries of that country.
His lordship sentenced the defendant to be fined
ls., and to be discharged.
James Halloran, 17, and Phillip Mack, 18, were
indicted for the wilful murder of Patrick Gibbons,
at Liverpool, on the 2d of May last.
Mr. AsDinall and the Hon. Dudley Campbell
prosecuted; and Mr. Deighton defended the pri-
soners.

It appeared that the prisoners were shoeblacks,
following their vocation in Bispham-street, Liver-
pool, and that the deceased man had recently come
into their street as a rival. At about half-past 11
o'clock on the night of the 2d of May the deceased
and a lad named Hayes went down Bispham-street,
and the two prisoners and a third man were on
the opposite side of the street. One of the three
men threw a stone at the deceased, and imme-
diately crossed over and asked Hayes and the de-
ceased if they wanted anything. At that time the
prisoner Mack had a poker in his hand with which
he struck Patrick Gibbons on the head, knocking
him down. Hayes then ran away, followed by
Mack, and it then appeared from the evidence of a
woman named Archibald that the two prisoners, on
seeing the deceased in the street, ran into the house
where they lived, and said, " they wanted a poker
to beat a lad at the top of the street." Mack then
got a poker from the fireplace, and the other pri-
soner obtained a sling shot, with which they went
out ; and after Mack had struck the deceased with
the poker, and, while he was chasing Hayes,
Halloran struck the deceased various blows with
the sling shot, and the third man who was with
the prisoner raised the deceased up and dashed his
head against the footpath. On Mack returning he
jumped on the deceased, who was lying on the
ground, saying, "he had stopped the - from
saying anything for three months, and perhaps for
six." The deceased died three days afterwards from
the injuries he had received.
His Lordship having summed up,
The jury found the prisoners guilty of man-
slaughter.

His Lordship, in passing sentence, said it was as
cruel and as bad a manslaughter as he had ever
heard, and that the difference between it and mur-
der was very slight. The sentence of the Court
was, that they be sent to penal servitude for the
term of their lives.

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