The Sun.
London, England, 1860-02-20 00:00:00

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treated as an article included under the treaty. It
was to be made duty free, but not under the
treaty. The deputation did not object to the most
complete free trade, provided they were to be :allowed
to start fair in the race with their rivals ; but the
price of the raw material in France and Belgium
being only half the paice that it was in England,
from the demand for rags being so much less than
in this country, the manufacturers here were
thereby incapacitated from competing on fair
terms with those of the Continent and of the
United States. Under those circumstances the de-
putation had, in the first instance, to press that the
admission of foreign paper should not be allowed
to take place free of duty so long as the prohibition
on the export of rags was maintained in foreign
countries ; but that, if the Government could not
make that concession, they shoUld undertake to
address an immediase application to the Govern-
ments of France, Spain, Portugal, Belgium, and
Russia to remove the prohibition.
Mr. JOYNSON said the paper makers of this coun-
try, to whom he stood in the relation of chairman,
gave employment to about 150,000 people, and a
capital amounting to something like £3,000,000.
(Hear, hear.) He himself had been now nearly
40 years in the trade, commencing first with one
of those village mills which the Chancellor of the
Exahequer in his financial statement had been
pleased to eulogise, but afterwards, as his trade in-
creased, expending £140,000 iu machinery alone.
That expenditure he had incurred for the benefit of
his family. He could now produce a paper at
Bs. 2d. a ream, a much better than what he made
and sold ii 1823 when he commenced paper-making,
at 235. (Hear.) He stated that to show the improve-
ments which had been made in the manufacture;
and he would say he was capable of competing with .
any manufacturer in the world, if he was allowed
to do so on fair and equal terms. Last year he paid
duty in respect of his own business amounting to
more. than £27,000, and if the Government now
took off the differential duty of ld. in the pound
upon foreign paper, he would ;low annually £lB,OOO.
Again, the increase in the price of coal, which
would result from its exportation to France, and
the maintenance of the City Coal ants, would in-
crease his loss by another £l,OOO at least. The
taking off the paper duty would be a boon to the
country. (Hear, hear.) They (the paper-makers)
were all interested in that, but if they were not to
be allowed free access to the raw material, and if,
besides, paper from France and Belgium was to be
permitted to come in without some prohibitive
duty, they would be annihilated. He himself was
a free-trader to the backbone, and free trade was all
that the paper-makers in this country wanted. He
had bought rags in France and Antwerp at £l4 per
ton, of a quality which cost him in Eagland £2B
per ton. (Hear, hear.) It was justly stated in the
Times the other day that at present—except straw,
which was of little or no use for the purpose,—
paper could only be made of rags. Rags as a refuse
product could only be made by population, and, as
this country had increased in population, so the
raw material for paper had augmented ; but the
supply was unequal to the demand. The English
paper-makers now made double the quantity of
paper they made 20 years ago. They had invested
in the aggregate £3,000,000 of capital in their
works ; they gave employment to 150,000 people ;
and he submitted they were a body of men whose
position ought to be studied to some considerable
extent. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. EVANS said one way in which we could com-
pete with France would be by the production of
some raw material which should answer as a sub-
stitute for rags, and he thought we had exhausted
all the sources likely to be available as such substi-
tute. In France, where rags were plentiful, it would
be simply ridiculous to make paper of straw. The
case of the English manufacturer was further pre-
judiced by the exportation, which went on to a con-
siderable extent, of rags from this country to Ame-
rica; and the probable result of the movement on
the part of the Government with respect to paper
would be that all our rags would go to America;
that the greater proportion of our paper would
come from France; and that the paper mills in this
country would fall into disuse. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. COWAN hoped it was not yet too late for the
Government to get the paper-makers here put on
an equal footing with their brethren abroad. They
had nothing to feat from the manufacturers of
France or any other country if they were put upon
a fair footing; and he reminded the right hon. gen-
tleman that successive statesmen, from Sir R.
Peel downwards, had. been actuated by the desire
to emancipate articles of raw material—a principle
that was one of the most important that a Govern-
ment could set itself to maintain. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. SAUNDERS said papar making was a large
and important trade ; the manufacturers paid
£1,500,000 annually to the revenue ; they asked for
no protection against the foreigner ; there might be
some shades of difference among them, but as a body
they were thoroughly free traders; their great grie-
vance was the want of raw material, the exporta-
tion of which was prohibited. from abroad. They
wished to have access to a common market with
foreigners for the raw material; but at present they
had to fight against. Belgium and France, which
protected their own manufacturers.
Mr. MILNER GIBSON said of course he entirely
agreed with the deputation that it would be most
desirable if foreign countries could be induced to
repeal their export. duties on rags. He certainly
thought it, was a fair thing to ask them to do. Just
on the same principle that we were not going to
prohibit the export of coal to France, so in France
they ought not to prohibit the export of rags to
this country. But still the allegation that there
was a great want of the raw material for the manu-
facture of paper in this country was not quite con-
sistent with the fact of an exportation of that raw
material. With all respect to the deputation, he
thought they underrated their own powers in the
competition. It was to be remembered that they.
would be able to manufacture paper at less Cost when
they manufactured it freely than, under an Excise
regulation. He entirely agreed with them as to
what they wanted—viz., that the export duty on
foreign rags should be got rid-of ; and he assured
them the Government would do all they could do
to induce foreign countries to reduce or abolish it.
He should have thought the quantity of rags in a
country depended very much on the number of the
population " and the extent of its -manufactures.
We had a large' and well-clad population
and extensive manufactures. He could not say he
should be in favour of any protection to our domestic
paper man ufacture—(" We don't want it") ;—but
he thought it was quite right that the Government
should do what they could to induce foreign coun-
tries to forego their export duties on the raw material.
Mr. TURNER, M.P., said a great deal would depend
on vigorous action on the part of the Government
at this moment; and as we were going to con cede
to the Emperor of the French a supply of coal and
other materials which were valuable to iiim, if
the Government were to hold out the most
threat of putting an equivalent on the articles which
he wanted so much, his Imperial Majesty might be
induced to remove the prohibition on the raw
material wlaich we wanted so much. (A laugh.)
Some further conversation ensued, in which the
President of the Board of Trade, and Mr. Puller,
Ntr. Evans, Mr. Joynson, and other gentlemen took
part, but which was not of a nature to call for a
report, and the interview terminated.

ADMISSION OF FOREIGN SPIRITS AT A

6EIr DUTY.
A deputation from the Irish and S. cotch distillers
Nhviasiatetdte
teohtahneceefflloerct which
of the Exchequer, to draw
the propcsed re-
duction:of duty on foreign siriuls.dadMitted into this
.country. for- consumption would
interests of the British distillers haverhe deputation
upon the
consisted. of Sir E. Grogan, M.P.
M.P._; Mr. P. O'Brien, M.P.•
Vance Bowyer,
Mr. George, M.P. ; Captain .usinonde, ilre; Mr.
I.P.
Bellew, M.r• ; Ellice, M.P. ; Colonel 'Cole,
M.P.; Mr, .12alglish, MP.; Mr. Redmond, M.P.
Sir J. Power, Mr. Haig, Mr. Jamieson, B,:n.
Sir E. GROGAN said he had the honour of intro-
ducing to the Chancellor of the Exchequer a
deputation from the distillers of Ireland and Scot.
land; in order that they might lay before him their
views as to the effect which the admission of foreign
spirits would have upon their interests. They had
draWn up, in a memorial, the particular points
which they wished to submit to his consideration.
Mr. JAMIESON, one of the members of the depu-
tation, then handed to the right hon. gentleman the
memorial,. whichwas to the effect that the proposed
alteration of duties on foreign spirits exposed the
Irish and• Scotch distillers to the competition of
foreign distillers in the home market, giving them
only a protection of ZIA. per gallon as an equivalent
for the Excise restrictions. The memorial asked
fora drawback for ex port of 31:d per gallon, as spirits
imported by the
.Excise restrictions were produced
at an extra charge of 174 per cent., even though
they paid no duty on the export. I*
. .

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
he was much obliged to the gentlemen for their con-
sideration, and begged to assure them that he would
give the matter 'of the memorial his best attention.
After alluding to the subject of a drawback, which
be said he should Consider, he asked the deputa-
tion if they feared competition with the French
brandy.
\sl T
r. .AMIESON said they did 'not. They had
more
a feareespirit. respect o the German spirit, which
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—The
Dutch?
Mr. HAIG--Nes ; We fear the introduction of the
Dutch spirit.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he had
only to repeat the Government would give to their