The Sun.
London, England, 1860-03-10 00:00:00

THY SVtk_i_'LOINIPON, SATURDAY EVENING, •

Sardinia being aggrandised in this manner France would
claim Savoy and Nice. (Hear, hear.) Now Ido not think
the noble lord will rise and say that the French Government
had announced any intention of changing their original po-
licy in this respect. (Hear, hear.) But is that all ? The noble
lord sent his propositions to the great powers, to Austria,
RussiaT and Prussia. I ask him, when he sent those pro-
positions to the great powers for the settlement of the affairs
of 'talk by the annexation to the dominions of the King of
Sardinia of the central states of Italy, did he inform those
great powers that if that policy were adopted it was within
his knowledge that France would demand an expansion of
her frontiers in the direction to which I have referred ?
(Hear, hear.) But if the noble lord, with the possession of
that knowledge, did not impart it to those powers, I ask the
house to say whether that is the mode in which the diplo-
macy of a great country like this is to be carried on ? (Hear,
hear.) These are subjects upon which, when we are asked to
agree to a treaty on account of the critical condition of Eu-
rope, I think we are bound to demand the fullest informa-
tion from the noble lord. There is one point in regard to
the subject of these dispatches I consider to be of the utmost
importance, on which we should have the fullest information
from her Majesty's Government, and that is the manner in
which very important information of'zes out which otherwise
never could have reachdd the ear of Parliament, and that is
by what is called " private.letters." (Hear, hear.) Now, I
am willing to admit to the noble lord that it is not only of
the utmost advantage, but of the greatest importance, that
the most unreserired communication should exist between
the Secretary of. State and the ambassadors and minis -
sters of the Queen at foreign Courts. (Hear, hear.) Our
ambassador in France has sometimes to write as often as
three or four times a day. There were many observations
and views which it was his duty to communicate to the
Secretary of State, and which ought to form the subject of
a private letter and not of a public despatch. (Hear, hear.)
But it is right that the house should understand what these
private letters are, and that the private letters of an ambas-
sador to the Secretary of State are purely private, as the
epithet implies ; and that the Secretary is not bound to
show these letters to his colleagues. (Hear, hear.) Rarely
are they shown to any of his colleagues, with the exception
of the Prime Minister. Indeed, they came so rapidly that
his colleagues could not afford the time to read them all;
but as a matter of usage he is not bound to show them even
to the Sovereign. When he quits office he takes those
letters with him, and they form no part of the regular dip-
lomatic correspondence, or of the records of public business.
It would be a most unwise step to put an end to this confi-
dential communication between the Ministers and the agents
of his Sovereign. No man would undertake the responsi-
bility of such an office as that of Secretary for Foreign
Affairs if he were deprived of such advantageous means of
carrying his duty into effect. (Hear, hear.) But from the
very nature of those confidential communications it is not
right that a Secretary of State or an ambassador should, in
his public despatches, fall back on his private letters.
(Hear.) I find, however, from those papers, that the most
important information is contained in private letters which
do not appear. (Hear.) We should have no evidence that
the French Minister, subsequently to the despatch which
announces that the Emperor had renounced in July his in-
tention of annexing Savoy, neutralised and qualified the
intimation of that renunciation, but for the private letters
of Lord Cowley. (Hear.) Here we have an ambassador
ecnding is public despatch, in which it is positive/ an-
nounced that the Emperor has given up the intention of an-
nexing Savoy ; and it is only by these private letters we dis-
cover afterwards that circumstances having been changed,
the French ministers have with perfect frankness informed
her Majesty's ambassador, at least once, that the treaty of
Villafranca not having been carried into effect, the Empe-
ror should turn back to his original intention. (Hear.) A
diplomatic narrative placed before this house should be a
complete n,arrative. (Hear, hear.) I think that the highest
interests of the State are involved in that principle. Suppose
there had been a change of administration at the beginning
of this year, the first duty of the new Ministry would have
been to consult on the affairs of Italy. It might have been
their opinion that the policy that would be most advanta-
geous to England and Europe would be to strengthen Sar-
dinia and establish her as a power of considerable import-
ance ; but so far as the records in the Foreign-office were
concerned, they would have been completely in the dark on
the fact that the carrying out of that policy would necessarily
have led to the annexation of Savoy and Nice to France.
(Hear, hear.) It now appears that from the month of July,
or a little afterwards, her Majesty's Government were per-
fectly aware that if the treaty of Villafranca was not virtually
carried into effect the intention of France was to again claim
the annexation of Savoy and Nice. All this time her Ma-
jesty's Government were pursuing a policy which, for the
sake of argument, though I do not agree in it, I will
grant was an advisable one, but which certainly was one
that would have led to the annexation of Savoy and Nice to
France. (Hear, and cheers.) Under these circumstances
it is that her Majesty's Government have asked the house to
eater into this treaty with France, perfectly well aware as
they were for so long a period Before, that it was the inten-
tion of France to annex those provinces. Mr. Grey, her
Majesty's Charge d'Affaires at Paris, in a despatch of the 9th
January, communicated to the Government the alarm that
existed in Switzerland on the subject of the annexation,
Still the -negociations for the treaty went"on, and no attempt
was made by her Majesty's Ministers to instruct Mr. Grey
on the subject or to take or adopt any other proceeding, and
it was not till the 27th or 29th, or some day near the end of
the month of January, that the noble lord the Secretary of
State for Foreign Affairs wrote that despatch for which he
has received the compliments of several hon. gentlemen. Is
that despatch any compensation for the negligence of the
Minister? Is it right that after all the mischief is done he
should take refuge in a grandiloquent despatch ? (Hear,
hear.) I should like a despatch in that spirit to have been
sent to the French Government months before. The Em-
peror of the French is a Sovereign who is said, and I be-
lieve with justice, not to be insensible to public opinion.
That is a quality not to be despised, but we do not see that
any effort was made by the noble lord. He was silent. Yet
the noble lord commences this session by placing upon the
table a despatch which is to be the foundation of a treaty of
commerce between this country and France, which he re-
commends on account of the critical position of the conti-
nent, and of the significance of the treaty, because it would
reassure the public mind in the various countries of Europe.
These are questions which require explanation when we
are asked to consent to a treaty of the nature of that now
under discussion. (Hear, hear.) With all duo respect to the
house, I must say that I think it has been placed in a very
embarrassing position, brought about by a ladles which I
think it will ultimately regret. I endeavotired at the time
to call attention to our true position, but unfortunately the
house was not then sufficiently aware of the circumstances,
and the matter was hurried on, not, I believe, to the advan-
tage of the Government, and I am sure greatly to the dis- '
advantage of the house. (Hear.) Had we only understood
then what we are beginning to understand now, what was
the course adoped in 1787, we should not be at present in
the position in which we now find ourselves. If the treaty
had been put before the house first, not in a committee on
the Customs Acts, but in a committee on the commercial
treaty, all this embarrassment would have been
avoided. That was the motion which I made, not in
form, for the rules of he house would not allow of that,
but in effect. The Government might, if my motion had
been adopted, have carried all their resolutions in commit-
tee on the commercial treaty, and after that might have
addressed the Crown. (Hear, hear.) And under such cir-
cumstances the revenue would not have been disturbed;
the resolutions would have been only provisional, subject
to the approbation of the treaty by the house. (Hear, hear,
and cheers.) It is idle now to think that you are in a po-
sition to enter with effect into thismost momentous subject.
The hon. gentleman who moved the address accused me of
thinking that the most advisable thing we could have done
would have been to consider the treaty before we addressed
the Crown. No such nonsence ever entered my head. (Hear,
hear.) How could you consider the treaty but on a motion
for an address to the Crown ? What I said was—" Do not
go into committee on the Customs duties till you address
the Crown; because I knew if you did so, moving the ad-
dress would be an idle-ceremony—(hear, hear)—and an idle
ceremony it is to-night, for whatever may be my opinion on
the treaty I feel it is idle and impossible now to oppose it on
diplomatic grounds. You cannot refuse to address the
Crown on financial grounds because you have already lost
your revenue. (Hear.) Let us understand the ground on
which her Majesty's Government are now calling for our
decision. Does such a state of affairs exist as that which we
were led to believe in when this treaty was laid upon the
table? From a throne it has recently beeii announced the'
empires have natural boundaries. Who can foresee wha

will be the result of such a policy ? We know that at the
eleventh hour her Majesty's Government have protested
against such a doctrine. We knew that it has been described
and denounced as one of the most dangerous :that can be
pursued—as one that must fill Europe with suspicion, appre-
hension and distrust—as one that has been associated with
long and sanguinary wars, with the fall of empires, and
with the fate of dynasties. (Hear, hear.) This is your
description of the critical condition of Europe, and it is
under these circumstances that we are called on to ap-
prove this treaty with the power which the noble lord
has described as the power of disturbance and
distrust. Sir, all the circumstances are changed sines the
right hon. gentleman introduced to us his financial motion.
We are not influenced by the same feelings, the country is
not influenced by the same considerations ; all is altered ;
all is altered from the day when I endeavoured to lead you
to a safer course--(cheers Pram the Opposition)—which
everybody now feels and in private acknowledges—(derisive
cheers from the Ministerial benches)—which was then met
with rhetorical gibes, as it is met now with unmeaning
laughter. (Hear, hear.) But, sir, I hope we shall at least
have the satisfaction, before this address is voted, of hearing
some explanation from the Secretary of State of the incom-
prehensible passages in his despatch to which I have called
attention. I hope we shall hear from him why, being in
possession—full and frank possession—of the policy of the
French Government, he did not communicate it to us and
our allies, why he followed a policy in Italy which favoured
and even precipitated that policy of France which he him-
self disapproved of, and why, when he placed these Thipers
before us, he placed them in such a manner that it is with
the utmost difficulty that we can arrive at the policy of the
Government, but of which, under these circumstances, I
oh"feeiatrlfiyllpsemnoe wwithendiswtreust, and Ie
will only say of it what the noble lord has said of the Em-
perorto d i s t u r b a n c e . "
soair(byLli
but
fouuantd
arise, e h e
we cheers.)
8. )
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, who was
of ,he French—that
belive will lead
received with cheers from the Ministerial benches, said—l
think,
hbee important opinionsopfeech mle.
fathattttehres t
that
right t
ahte hthiaomvnee.
feaoeffreoutrhpdeieedfdu full
of the honourable member for Bridg-
water gentleman
th hedt ihasg. greater
tuensapost tireoeryn
bepatoahfriayr r i v e d ( h e a rd , h
he a r ) b u t willshall
hb e
invited by the motion
Government,
' ce of Savoy. (Hear, hear.) At pre-
reference to the province to enter
aohndthefe etohnesidpeersaittleoun ofef ththeecoeneudunctrt;ofwtihthe
eitti
clay
la s
difficultyb before,
ryveEeuruysr; littlepean on 0
ltiht
iris
other question of
before the
time when the substance of
sfp;:rnrieentliitgi.ent:PifsGotlh(ni)
eveeyeeqreuna
uponaemastreiynoNtnvf
homri ofei
which
heat Savoy,t
possibly
s s y
difference of opinion with the
Cabinet other Majesty at the
tthivieslytreraetnyiewteas
and hypothetical
asenadcoml compara-
tively
inasmuch as, in the state
dependent countries like England an
which exists at the present day, you cannot expect a
if we were to contemplate the possible occur
uniform concurrence of opinion betweedn
ytwroahig.eernee,caetthoaefnrcdeafeisnree-s
in which it migh be our duty frankly to
s our dissent
fromevi l s wa nhyi
rye
to 'te
n
of strengthening our own position for all events
ephr omp
might
hi tti °fn.() Lf,,Fv riatris
ace,d eapntdi
etho, ptoehix:l3tvr express
ht o
sht er
modt h thee
was
benefit cordially
to with
bollscountries, France in at
e greatwhi
which
t we
ef
werepoli c policy,
franklyfraught
invited
with
by her, and which, whatever might, occur, was the best
prepal Gation for friendly relations betimen the two o-
vernnients, because it tended not only to create these
friendly relations between the Governments, but also to
give them a broad and peep and solid basis in th
friendly sympatliia of the two' nations. (Hear, hear.)
With 'expect to On COWS@ of the debate I roust onfegi )

should be peifectly content to rest the'argument for thd
treaty of commerce with France, irrespective of the abl.
speech made by a member of the Government, upon th,
various speeches which-have been delivered by hon. gentle•
men, most of them, though not all, sitting on this sid(
of the house, beginning with the admirable speech,
of my hon. friend the member for Middlesex, sq
ably seconded by the hon. ' member for Leeds, and fol;
lowed by a long list of gentlemen who brought to the sup-7
port of this treaty every gift of knowledge and ability, and
among whom if I do not include the hon. baronet the memo
ber for Tamworth it is only because of the much too
favourable and flattering terms in which he thought fit to
allude to myself. (Hear, hear.) At the same time I
am sorry to say that there was one speech which, if I
estimate it aright, stands in striking contrast with th
general tone of the debate. I refer, of cousse, to th
speech of my honourable friend the member fo
Stroud. (Cheers.) Her Majesty's Government have been
unfortunate beyond description during the present ses-
sion in attempting to win the favour of my right honour-
able friend. (A laugh.) Scarcly had the session opened
when he complained that never 'did a Government pre-
sent to Parliament se scanty a programme of busi-
ness ; but scarcely had it proceeded three weeks more
when he again complained that such was the crowd and mass
of business forced upon the attention of the house by the
Government that they were greedily and irrationally
demanding from private members a portion of time which
did not belong to them. (Cheers.) My right hon. friend
told us to-night that he is an older Freetrader than any
gentleman except one who sits upon the Treasury bench—
(cheers from the Opposition)=—and yet almost in the same
breath he informed us that the country which diminishes
its import duties makes a present of its revenue to the
foreigner. (Cheers and laughter.) Two millions, says he;
of import duties we shall have made a present of to France
before France begins to act upon this treaty. Such is the

mode in which my right lion: friend illustrates his old ex-
perience and his happy conception of the doctrines of free
trade. (Cheers and laughter.) My right hon. friend says
that the Government have contrived in this treaty to betray
the interests of England, and at the same time to ruin the

interests of France ; for, he tells us, whoever supports the
plans of the French Emperor is, in the opinion of the
French people,. ruining the interests of France. He says,
again, that by the 11th article of the treaty my noble friend
the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, who is necessa-
rily in a peculiar degree responsible for every treaty, and
the entire Government have abandoned and betrayed the
highest and most vital interests of this country ; and yet he
is perfectly satisfied, as he declared in another part of his
speech, to leave in the hands of my noble friend the conduct
of our foreign relations. These are the declarations of my
right hon. friend, but they are declarations of secondary
importance, booause they merely express the criticisms of

an individual member of Parliament on the conductoftlie
Government. There were graver matters involved in his
speech—(hear, hear)—and, as a member of the House of
Commons, as an Englishman, and not less as one
holding office under the Crown, I must take leave to
enter my respectful protest against the whole tone and
language of my right hon. friend, when he described
the character, policy, and conduct of a neighbouring
and friendly nation. (Cheers.) My right hon. friend,
in drawing a contrast between England and France,
said that the policy of France was "aggression, aggrandize-
ment, and war." (Cheers from the Opposition.) I admit
to my right hon. friend that if the time has really come
when it is the duty of a member of the British Parliament,
of a man of ability and experience like my right hon. friend,
thus to describe the permanent and standing character and
policy of a neighbouring and friendly nation, then, indeed,
it is inappropriate to be discussing either treaties of cora
merce or amendments to treaties of commerce, not to speak
of some paltry amendment relating to the export of coal,but
we ought to have a sweeping and unmistakable vote of con-

demnation passed at once upon the treaty that has ben
made and upon the Government that has made it. (Hear,
hear.) Again, says my sight hon. friend, it is not the best
way to secure peace with the French people to wound and

---
irritate their feelings. That is one of the dicta necessary
to make up the budget of inconsistencies and contradictions
which my right hon. friend has exhibited to-night. "It

is not the best way to wound and irritate their feelings." I

ask him to put himself in their position, and then to inquire
of himself whether, if he had heard such a speech delivered
by a subject of a nation in peace and alliance with his own,
his feelings would or would not have been wounded and
irritated ? (Cheers.) But my right hon. friend endea-
voured to save himself by drawing a minute distinction be-
tween the Government and the nation, and he told us that

we were conspiring against the French people with their

ruler. Does he really imagine that, in order to soothe the
feelings of the French people, he has only to draw these

distinctions between them and their Government, which no

foreign nation has a right to draw ? We have no right, I re-
peat, to draw suchdistinctions. It is not only an interference,

but it is an interference of the most offensive kind—(cheers)

—and if there be in France one spark of that patriotism which
we weretold to foster in England, every Frenchman must

read, as every Englishman would read , with indignation much
of what has been said to-night. (Cheers.) It appears to me that

;here is no great difficulty in construing the passage which has

been quoted by the right hon. gentleman opposite from the
despatch of Lord Cowley on the subject of the treaty. I
think he gives it too narrow a emstruction if he intends it
to be understood that the opinion of the Government was
that only onpolitical grounds was this treaty to be judged.

We have always frankly admitted that the treaty must be
tried upon its merits with reference to commerce and trade,

and with reference also to the indirect effects which com-
merce and trade would produce. (Hear, hear.) With re-

spect to political grounds, wo could not, undoubtedly, be
insensible to the fact that there was much at the time when

hese negociations were going on in which France and Eng-

[and hada common feeling, and in which France and Eng-

[and jointly ware the main European champions of the

principles and representatives of the Powers bywhich alone
we could hope to seethe affairs of Europe settled. When

we looked to Italy, which has long been a suppressed vol-
cano, certain to burst out and to produce most dangerous
complications in Europe, no impartial man could deny that,
whether the Emperor's title to make war in Italy was good
or bad, no inconsiderable effects had been produced by the
war, whether they were due to the valour of France or to

the moderation of Austria, and no inconsiderable progress
made towards the settlement of Italian affairs, which upon
every ground of European interest and of British feeling

was a consummation much to be desired. (Hear.) Take
the state of feeling in Italy. It surely could not be
possible for any rational man to see the state of things that
prevailed in Italy and not to desire to make an effort, in
itself beneficial, but likewise recommended by the likeli-

hood of its being successful, for the purposes of applying a
remedy, or at least a palliative. We had the greatest alarm
and apprehension in the public mind on the score of military

preparations. We had an immense and constantly growing
increase of our own expenditure, connected verymuch with
that alarm and apprehension. Last year it was the painful
duty of the Government to propose a great addition to the
burdens of the country, and well d the prospoet of further ad-
ditional expenditure in the present year and for a long sue-

cession of years. Was not that a reason for endeavouring to
act upon the alarm and apprehension which prevailed, not
by the discontinuance of measures which the safety of the
country requited, but by the adoption of a process which,
like the silent and ceaseless processes of nature herself,
would bring into play a thousand beneficial
.influences on
the side of peace, and which from day to day and from year
to year would counteract the prevailing alarms by under-
mining their causes, and by substituting for whatever re-
mained of panic on the one hand or undue military spirit
on the other those solid habits and usages of friendship
which are cemented and strengthened by the peaceful in-
tercourse of commerce and trade? (Cheers.) But the
political part of the treaty I will not dwell upon, and I will
go to those portions of it which are more within my own
proper sphere. And here I have listened with great satis-
faction to the course of the present debate, because I take it
for granted that the best objections that could be made to
the treaty have been made. And what do they come to ?
We have heard something of bargains, and we have been
told that this treaty is a bargain, that we have asked for
equivalents, and that we have not got them. Sir, I deny
that this treaty has ever been a bargain, for it is of the es-
sence of a bargain that you give away something which it
would be of yalue to you to retain, and that you receive
something which it is important to the other party to keep.
(Hear, hear.) This is a reciprocal instrument if you like,
but a bargain it is not, for you are giving nothing to France
that is not a gift to yourself, and you are receiving nothing
from France except measures by which France confers a
a benefit upon herself. (Cheers.) 'ln the first place it
would be unnecessary, and in the next place it would be
mischievous, to inquire the precise measure of percentage
on this article or on that—whether the restraint on the
exportation of rags is duly balanced by the duty on
paper, or whether the duty which France leaves
on the raw silk she sends to us shall be removed
when we are sending her enormous quantities of
raw silk without any duty at all. All these propositions it
was unnecessary, and much worse, than unnecessary, to en-
tertain. The hon. member for Stamford fell into a ludicrous
error last night. He speaks of the slovenliness of the treaty
with regard to the export of rags. He says we have covered
that by obtaining the removal of the prohibition, but that is
only one fault in the treaty, and there aro 20 others. But
that is not a fault in the treaty. We have never attempted
the impossible task of constructing such a system of equi-
valents.
We have had warning enough in the experience
of former years. And what says the hon. and learned mem-
ber for Belfast, who finds fault with us and comes forward
to instruct us ? Ho finds fault with us for not having en-
tered into these minute adjustments—for not having settled
how much duty should be levied on linen goods, and then
he says, "Why not go to Spain and see whether she will
not enter upon these minute and endless discussions ?" I
will tell him why. Because we knew quite well that, if there
were any means of obstructing the progress of free trade, it
was by entering upon these, negociatious in the spirit of
bargain that he recommends. And oven that is not all, for,
not only would ho have been entangled, if he had had the
management of these negociations, in hopeless complica-
tions that would have made him times out of mind pray his
stars that he had never meddled with it—(cries of " Oh I")
—but while he was involved in the attempt to disentangle
these inexplorable difficulties and complications—and I
really pay him, the compliment of saying that he was the
man to do it if it could be done—the whole of these proceed-
ings, involving millions of revenue, would have become pa-
tent the public, and the last result of that blessed under-
taking would have been a total paralysis alike of trade and
of revenue, and of no inconsiderable portion of the commerce
and industry of the country. (Cheers.) These, sir, are
the reasons why we declined these negotiation, and it is
no blot on the treaty that it does not provide for the
free export 'of rags. We came to the conviction
• that if France once frankly, sincerely, and de-
cisively entered upon the career of freedom of trade, her
own experience of the commencing stages would be a secu-
rity for her proceeding onward&-towards its confirmation
ouch as we mild laot-by any other wow obtain, (Cheers.)

MARCH ,g):4(,;186Ai(

That is the meaning of the treaty, and that is the reason of
the avoidance of these minute arrangements, which, hope-
less and impossible at any time, would have been mrschip-
vous and absurd under the particular circumstances, be-
cause ''they would have led to a total misconception of the
fundamental principles of the treaty. That is the reason
why the treaty has been framed subh as it is, and not such
as has been recommended
.by the hon. and learned gentle-
man opposite, I will only say one word on what fell from
the hon. memberfor Norfolk, who says that the increase of
the income tax is due to this treaty. I must say that is a
very inaccurate statement of the care. In the first place it
must be recollected that the loss really due to the treaty is
extremely small in amount. In all the stages of our pro-
ceedings we never have given it with precision—I have
never heard any computation of 'the exact loss of revenue
we shall incur by the treaty with France, because we have
endeavoured to deal with it conjointly with the whole loss
arising from the treaty. But France is not to be charged
with the benefit arising to Spain or Portugal through the
admission of their wines at a low price, nor are we, so far as
I am aware, bound by any treaty to extend unconditionally
to those countries the benefits we extend to France. The
whole annual amount of loss of revenue' under the treaty on
our commerce with France cannot, I think, even at the
outset, be estimated at more than £60,000 or £70,000 a year
—that is, including the ultimate fall of the wine duties,
which will not take place before the expiration of 9 months.
On commercial grounds, then, I put against a very small
loss of revenue for azear the promise of a very great exten-
sion of trade. (Chris.)_ Wish regard to the great staples
of France, wine and brandy, the reuction of duty is such
as to promise a great increase of trade. As regards our-
selves I wish to call the particular attention of the house
to this—that we have long acted on the principle

lad all differential duties are impolitic and bad, and teat
here is not even a single duty of any moment—l am not
sure there is even one of the very smallest that we abandon
under the treaty with France that is not strictly a differen-
tial duty. (Cheers.) I look to France, and I must gay
that I can conceive no measure more qualified to attach the
people of France than a treaty like this. We have been told
that the people of France, forsooth, are opposed to this treaty.
So far as I have had opportunities of judging, I should say
it appears to me the case is this—that there is a limited and
powerful class in France to which, at any rate for the me.
went, the treaty may be obnoxious. But you have hardly
any country where so large a mass of the population are so
directly interested, not only as consumers, but also as pro-
ducers, and whose productions .would immediately receive
so greatly increased a value from a commercial treaty, and
you will have another most powerful agencythat will attach
the people of France to this treaty and all connected with it.
France is likely to receive a very large increase of Customs
revenue under this treaty. What can be more beneficial to
France than a treaty which will enable the Government to
reduce the additions to the direct taxation of that country ?
I believe that even the hon. member for Birmingham will
admit that the people of France are not so enamoured of
direct taxation as not to see with pleasure the prospect of
its remission. (Hear, hear.) I must confess I have the
strongest conviction that there is another great commercial
benefit not alluded to in this debate, but which may be anti-
cipated from this treaty. Should circumstances be favour-
able to its development, I do not think that anything could
withstand the moral contagion of France and England acting
together in the sense of liberty of commerce. (Cheers.) As
long as England stood alone it was easy to say—" This na-
tion has grown old and great by protection, and she can
afford to throw away the ladder by which she has mounted
to eminence." That is the current language. I admit that
the admirable example we set has been but slightly,
reluctantly, and partially followed, and I believe that the
right hon. gentleman, who, I admit has spoken with mode-
ration, is in error in supposing that the Emperor was about
to introduce a system of an analogous kind by independent
legislation in France. Such an opinion is totally contrary to
the information we possess. It rests upon no documents.
The right hon. gentlemen has, I think, mistaken the nega-
tive promise of the Emperor, that no prohibitions should
be removed before a certain date, for a positive promise of the
Emperor that at that date those prohibitions shall be re-
moved. It was not a fraud practised on the people, but we
enabled the Emperor to hold out to France additional in-
ducements by which the system of prohibitions might be
altered. But the advantages to be derived from this treaty
will go far beyond France, for I believe that the example of
France joined with England in one course and policy will
spread far beyond the limits of those two countries, and the
results which the changes in this treaty ought to achieve
will be not merely making 2d. into 4d., as an hon. member
has said, but knitting together the hearts and minds of men,
and the benefits will spread from region to region and from
country to. country. (Cheers.) We must now consider
shortly what are the articles on which many of the hopes of
the opposition to this treaty are founded. Great hopes which
had been entertained with regard to one item were dispelled
by the prudent and kindly announcement we were per-
mitted to make the other evening on the part of the French
Emperor—(cheers) —but, though rags have failed, yet some
hopes were entertained until a recent period on the subject
of shipping. The hon. member for Sunderland very frankly
admitted that when he first read the article with regard to
shipping—the 3d article—he, in common with the rest of
the world, totally misunderstood it—(laughter)—but he
congratulated himself that he had by study extricated
himself from his error, whereas a portion of the world are
still wandering in darkness. (Hear, hear, and laughter.)
We have had unfortunate proof that such is the case. My
hon. friend the' member for Stamford showed last night that
he did not understand the article, and the right hon. mem-
ber for Buckinghamshire, following bins to night with
ready confidence, has likewise exhibited a similar unac-
quaintance with the spirit and intention and whole effect
and character of this article. The hon. member for Stam-
ford began by ascribing to Government a defence of the
article which the Government did not make, and having
set up a lay figure wherewith to fight, he, of course, had no
difficulty in knocking it down. (A. laugh.) He said that
the Government defended the article by asserting that it
related to the indirect trade. My right hon, friend last
night did not so defend it. I say that it does not refer to
the indirect trade, but to the direct trade only. I want to
give an example of the extravagancies into which ingenious
men are led—(ironical cheers from the Opposition)—when
there is something or other to which they must objet.
"Now mind," . it is said, " you must object to the 3d
article ; handle it, turn it over, see what you can make of
it, but object to it you must ;" and so my hon. friend oppo-
site detected a deep plot in this article, and urged that the
French Emperor had outwitted and entrapped the British
negotiators. The article secures differential duties on
French shipping • and it is true that these differential
duties are not paid British shipping ; but my hon. friend
says that the meaning is obvious, and that the French Em-
peror, having got the treaty of commerce, will give notice
to terminate the treaty of navigation, and then the diffe-
rential duties will be applicable to British shipping. An
argument more far-fetched, or more contrary to nature and
reason, there could not be than one which supposed that
the man who with almost unparalleled boldness has under-
takes to negotiate this treaty in France, in the teeth of
so much interested opposition, would the day after pledg-
ing himself in the face of his people the principles of free
trade, reverse the only instrument which prevents the
unlimited protection of shipping, and revert te the old
state before the treaty. But that is not all, for what
would be the effect if the Emperor exercised this cun-
ning ? It is perfectly true that, if the treaty of navigation
were at an end, this 3d article would enable the Emperor
to impose against English shipping the differential duties
which now exist in the French law,—that is to say, that by
terminating the treaty of navigation he would obtain a
limited power of imposing differential duties. But what
should we get ? That proceeding would give to us the un-
limited power of imposing duties on French ships, for then
there would be nothing to prevent our prohibiting the en-
trance of every French ship into our ports. (Hear, hear.)
Let me give to my hon. friend the real, natural, and true
account of this article. So far from having to apologize on
account of this treaty to those who represent British ship-
ping, the Government maintain that the treaty does much
for British shipping. What will be the increase of the coal
trade under this treaty ? What is the meaning of your
alarms and fears for the exhaustion of English coal in 300
years ? At any rate, as long as it lasts a great many more
English ships will be employed in carrying it. (Cheers.)
Perhaps you think that French ships will carry it all. On
the contrary, of the shipping employed in the trade 69 per
cent. aro British ships, 28 per cent. French Chips, and the
other 3 per cent. are foreign ships. Those last, going from
English ports to France, are in the indiriet trade, and lia-
ble to the differential duties ; and the article was inserted to
prevent competition with the French shipping in the in-
direct hade on the part of Swedes, Danes, and others ; so
that there is a small pinch of the powder of protection in
favour of French shipping and likewise of British shipping.
(Hear, hear.) At any rate the hon. gentle Man opposite
will not think that that part of the treaty was written in
Bedlam. (Laughter.) Ships constituted one of the points
on which great hopes long turned, and those hopes have
not been abandoned to might by the right hon. member for
Buckinghamshire; but I trust that he also is now satisfied
as to the object and scope of the article. Everything else
having blown down, there still remained the subject of
coal, which has been thought strong enough to bear
the weight of an amendment. I do not think that
the right hon. member for Stroiscl ' has done justice
to himself, for this is but a narrow conolusion to a broad
speech. His speech went much further, and the conclusion
he has arrived at is, compared with the speech, so inade-
quate that I am afraid the right hon. gentleman cannot go
home easy to-night. (Laughter.) At any rate, he has the
consolation of reflecting that ho made'a gallant struggle to
save one of the most vital interests of England. (A laugh.)
I must say, however, that I do not think my right hon.
friend relies much on what may be called the extra-com-
mercial part of the case. He did not enter into details on
that part of the subject relating to the prerogative of the
Crown, nor will I now attempt todo so. I will satisfy my-
self with stating that, so far as we are advised, with re-
spect to the rights of the Crown no duty arising out of any
obligation that appertains to it is in the smallest degree
compromised, qualified, or surrendered !by this treaty.
(Hear.) The question we have to consider is entirely a
commercial question. It is the question whether we ought
to enter into an engagement, even for the period of 10
years, which absolutely binds us during that period—or
longer should a continuance of the treaty be resolved on—
to lay no duty on the exportation of coal to France. (Hear,
hear.) It is clear, however, that we could not enter into
any treaty of commerce with France without having assur-
ance of her and she of us that we would not be subjected to
exceptional legislation. I think, therefore, no one will take
the slightest objection to the 19th article, by which France
is secured against any exceptional legislation on our part.
The question, then, is whether we have done wisely or un-
wisely in undertaking that for a period of 10 years at least
we shall impose no export duty on the 'article of coal • and
whether or art this is a fit subject for such an amendment
as my right hon. friend has proposed. I trust the house
wiil not entertain that amendment, on any other except
the very strongest grounds. Thehouse is-going to the foot
of the Throne to express its loyal sense of duty at this com-
mencement
of an arrangement which it declares, willin its
judgment, be beneficial to the interests of commerce and of
peace ; and in such circumstances no person would obtrude
such an amendment as is now proposed, except from a very
strong sense of duty. (Hear, hear.) And what is that sense
of duty ? That I had better leave inscrutable. (Alaugh.)
But what I will ask is—What is the object or policy my
right hon. friend hopes to defeat by pressing upon the house
the adoption of this amendment ? I hope the notion has
been disposed of that the object of France in regard to the
article of coal is a military one. I am sure that in the mind
of any impartial person it is impossible that such a.notion
could remain for a single moment. (Hear.) In the first
place, France has contrived at this moment to secure a fleet,
by means of which flee, she has -considerably shaken the
nerves of a portion of the population of England without
the favour of any stipulation on our part not to prohibit the
export of coal. (Hear.) The whole extent of the naval
consumption of France is 160,000 tons, representing a value
of £200,000. (Hear.) The whole affair is Utterly insigni-
ficant (Hear.) Why, as large a quantity has been raised
from a single mine, and we have been told that at one iron
work as much coal has been consumed as useless at the
pit's mouth in the course of a single week. (Hear.) For
the description of small coal here referred to a good market
may cinder this treaty be found in France. (Hear.) This
is a qtrestion of cost, and I may state that the estimated
differince of cost, looked at from a French point of view,
will he 108, a tent The French expect to gain 100, a ton ;

and from that very estimate it will become evident tethe
honse that a great-deal of coal'is certain to' find a market
in France. - (pear, hear.) Let me ,state, in a few words
what is the rdtional construction of this article and what
I
the motives of France are with regard to it. t may be
true thit the French Government plight have been in-
duced to surrender or qualify this article, but I should
have been ashamed to demand such a concession--t(hetir,
hear)—for there is no article of the treaty more beneficial
in a commercial point-of view, or one that will more
powerfully, tend to knit together ,in kindly feelings the
two countries. (Hear.) To prohibit the export of coal is
impossible, except the limited prohibition that might arise
with respect to war. It is altogether outside the view of
this article td stop the exportation of coal. • To do so is just
as impossible as it would be to prohibit the import of cotton,
or to prevent iron being dug out of the bowels of the earth.
(Hear, hear.). France has abundance of coal_for those pur-
poses that may be termed political. For the domestic use
of the rich and fcr all the purposes of the State her coal is
abundant; but for commerce her coal is scanty; and the
physical conformation of France, and the wants of her manu-
facturers 'have gone far to determine the manufactlizing
enterprise of the country. Easy access to the raw material.
and abundant supplies of fuel led to the creation of manu-
factures. Put these two together and you have the com-
bination that makes South Lancashire a manufacturin
,county, with the great town of Liver Pool behind it. The
part of France in which there is the best access to the raw
material; and therefore so far is the most desirable for her
manufactures, is the seaboard of the Atlantic ; but then it
is farthest from her supplies of fuel, that lie on the south
'coast. But give France this treaty, and an assurance that
far commercial purposes she can depend on a supply of coal,
and then the cheapest part for obtaining coal in France will
be that part that gives easiest access to the raw material.
(Hear.) The places where cotton and other articles that
come across the sea are to be found will also be the places
where the coal will be lowest in price. (Hear, hear.) I
have been informed that there are already migrations con-
templated in France-from ' the centre and eastern parts
of the country to localities on the Atlantic seaboard,
where cheap coal is expected to be obtained. . That is
the process that goes on in this country, where the
iron trade has gene to the neighbourhood of the mal-
-1 pits, and where the cloth manufactures of Wiltshire
and Dorsetshirs has moved into Yorkshire. (Hear, hear.)
-You can conceive no process more beneficial for the com-
mercial interests et France than this, or one better calcu-
lated to promote tae advantage of the great mass of labour
in both countries and to secure the peace of the world,
(Hear.) The house will understand, then, why I declare
that we could not take advantage of the offer of the French
Government at one time, that rather than allow the treaty
to be lost they Weald consent to an alteration of this article.
(Hear, hear.) Btt there seems to be as honest fear that,
after all, we oughinot to part with our coal as it is so valu-
able. (Hear, heat) The right hon. gentleman (Mr. Dis-
raeli) most ingenhusly laboured to cut down that estimate
of coal, though he seemed rather afraid to state the result
of his figures. He rather evaded the point, and could not
see the termination of our coal in less than some centuries.
I am only sorry tint my hon. friend behind me (Mr. Vivian),
who so clearly disclosed the facts of the case, was not heard
by a larger numberof hon. members. (Hear, hear.) There
is in the minds of the class of persons most closely con-
nected with coal-mining in England not the slightest ap-
prehension of an exhaustion of the stock. I have before me
a letter from one of the best, most instructed, and most ex-
perienced coal-viemrs in the north of England, in which
I am informed thatwe have coal in this country to last for
upwards of 2,000 years. I allude to Mr. Nicholas Wood.
(Cheers.) But, as my hon. friend (Mr. Vivian) observed,
that does not repreient half the case • for you don't reckon
the unworked sears ; you don't reckonl the deeper seams
which are accessibb ; you don't take into view the hun-
dreds of cases of nev beds of coal which are discovered from
month to month in England. But, after all, is my right
hon. friend sincere in this amendment? It does all very
well as a subject for a speech inthis house—(a laugh)—but
are wo really afraid! Does my right hon. friend econo-
mise the use of coal in his own house ? No. (Oh I) An
hon. member says "Oh." I agree with his sneer. The
consumption of coal is 70,000,000 tons; the quantity sent
to France is 1,000,000 tons ; if you are alarmed about the
exhaustion of the existing stock you will economise on the
remaining 69,000,000. (A laugh.) It would be absurd, it is
said, when we consume 70,000,000 tons of coal at home,
that we should export to another country 1,500,000 tons,
which may increase to 3,000,000 ; we cannot afford it ; and
therefore, we must retain power to restrain the export. Sir,
those are not the grounds on which this house will carry an

amendment to thaot of the Throne. (Cheers.) But I have
done with this consileration. Thehon. gentleman the mem-
ber for Norfolk says he thinks a war with France and Eu-
rope would be bette, than this treaty should receive a final
sanction. (A laugh) It is not often we have the benefit of
hearing a gentlemat stand up and with engaging frankness
state camly and coolly in this house that he would rather
have a war with Frmce and Europe than see this treaty
ratified—adding, in the same breath, that no man is more
alive than he to theblessings of peace. (Laughter.) I must
confess I don't feel at all disappointed at the course of the
discussion with respect to this treaty. I hope the hon. gen-
tleman will not thinr it all disrespectful to him if I use free

language, and if I confess I think that that one sentiment,
and one or two others which he has used in these debates,

are not worthy of the,high standard of legislative wisdom
which I am sure he 'would seek and desire to attain. (Cheers
and laughter.) Much has been said in the course of these
debates that will not bear sober examination. Let us go back
to the debates of 1787, and there we shall find that all the
same foolish things and a great many others were said, and
said too by very wise sod distinguished men ; but time casts
a light on the events of those days. The mass of the coun-
try, at any rate so faras it can be tested by the ordinary re-
cords of the expression of opinion, has no share in these
apprehensions. 1 don't wishto overstate the case, but when
the right hon. member for Buckinghamshire travels backto

a debate which took place three weeks ago, and rather glo-

rifles himself on the aadvice he then gave to the house, but
which the house refused to follow, he
_ought to recollect

;hat that refusal was uttered not Only by the members of
the Government, not only by the majority which a party

can supply; but that itto-thal majority there entered many
of the most able and respected members from the opposite
side of the house, who usually vote with the right hon. gen-
tleman himself. (Cheers.) lie appeals to the future—to
the future we also appeal. We cannot presume to predict
the course of events. The experience of Mr. Pitt would
warn us against any such presumption. But although the
instrument which he concluded was not intended to last, it
did not on that account redound with the less honour to his
name; we don't the less believe that even for the time it
existed it may have done much to allay the excitement
which in bath countries followed the close of the American
war, and to produce greater feelings of self-command among
the English people in the earlier stages of the French Re-
volution. It is not for us to presume to say that this treaty
will work with such power as to control future events, but
if, by the blessing of the Almighty, the spirit of justice,
prudence, and moderation shall prevail in the councils of
Europe, then, looking to the state of Europe—to the power
of every country to attain strength and eminence through
the development of its internal resources, and to theabsence
of all legitimate causes of strife and collision, we ought to
hope that that state of circumstances may remain under
which this treaty may produce beneficial effects beyond any
power of judging; and I must say that in that case I cannot
but cherish the cheerful and sanguine expectation that
it will of itself do something to make the year 1860 one
memorable—memorable because fruitful of blessings- —in
the annals of Europe and mankind. (Loud and prolonged
cheers.)

Mr. NEWDEGA.TE, amidst cries of "Divide I" was
understood to ask whether the sth article of the treaty,
which touched the larger number of commodities, was to
apply to commodities imported from all countries, or from
France alone ?

Mr. lIORSMAN, in explanation, said the Chancellor of
the Exchequer had mistaken him in supposing that he had
said upon his own authority that there was any difference
of opinion between the French Emperor and the French
nation. He had quoted the language of the Emperor him-
self and of the French Journals. (Hear.) As there was a
feeling that the carrying of any amendment ul.on the 11th
article might effect the whole treaty—(laughter and cheers)
—under those circumstances, in compliance with the wish
that had been expressed by ie majority of those who agreed
with him, he should not press his amendment. (Divide.)
The house then divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment
Against
Majority —226
The announcement of the numbers was received with
cheers.
Mr. NEWDEGATE inquired whether article 5 of the
treaty would apply to goods imported from France alone, or
to the goods imported from all countries.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said this
was a point on which the hon. gentleman had before refused
to accept his statement, and had expressed a strong opinion
of his own. If any point should arise which required to be
elucidated, reference would be made to the law officers of
the Crown.
The motion for an Address to her Majesty was then
agreed to, and a committee appointed in conformity with a
resolution to that effect to prepare the terms of the Ad-
dress.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and
the house adjourned at 25 minutes to 2 o'clock.

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buying a watch, as it contains prices and important informa-
tion as to—What watch to buy ! where to buy it ! and how to
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