The Sun.
London, England, 1856-11-21 00:00:00

matt having M. in the savings' bank, but it must be the the Church rates, and he totally and unconditionally
for a certain time, so as to avoid its being paid in to crest V abolished.
a fictitieus. vote —and I would give a vote alio to nit clerk " • Mr. Jostens CLARK. asked Mr. James to state his opi-
who is reresp'ectable roau,2with salarY ef 50/. a year, who nion with reference to the desirability of adopting mea-
has obtained by his industry a status in society, as well as to sores for the prevention of drunkenness ?
the niau who derivese fair sum from the clic blends of hitrown Mr. earnings. I think it but fair and reason:Ode that
man very prJAMES—I think legislatioe as to drunkenness inatical. It should be left to education oblem to the
in the promotion of order and the security of property,
who is intelligent, has a status in society, and is interested . benefit? f example, and the increasing intelligence
of the
should be entitled.to have a peole (Cheers ) , vote, and the right to select 31r. CLARK—WiII you advocate the Maine Law ?
his own representative to Parliament. But the extension Mr. JAMES—If you mean will I support an Act of Par-
of the franchise would be valueless without the ballot s. lianaent to prevent the manufacture of ardent spirits, I
(Cheers.) It becomes persecution to a man to give him th must say no. It would interfere with capital and indus-
vote sinless you protect him in recording it. (Hear, hear
.s',4 try, and would only produce illicit distillation.
Having had some little experience in these matters, I kn, De.
r• HEARNE- I understand that a sum of from
for,
that intimidation is resorted to, to far too great an exte. ; to 1,500/. has been spent,, before's candidata coming fof-
and it is in my opinion Useless to extend the franchise nil_
swpearnddcztseacmuoreunhits? election. Is Mr. James prepared• to
less you give the voter the security of the ballot. (Che Am.)
The fanehiseis a sacred trust for the benefit of the ls. aople. Mr. JAMEI—Ary answer to that question is this :
and instances. occur where men have not paid the rates left'
me
of
Southampton had been for many years a
in order to disqualify themselves from being placed -on the byword and a disgrace. You were placed in the
register, from the fear of incurring loss or disples sr ire for catalogue of venal and corrupt constituencies• but dur-
the honest and independent exorcise of their I ie
,hte—a ing the last few years the electors themselves have purg-
state of things which in a free country is a oats 'al die- rid the borough, and done away with that corruption.
grace. (Cheers.) They say, " Well, but voting by' ballot is (Cheers.) I will not spend ono farthing more than the
un-English." So is intimidation. (Cheers.) Thous they say legitimate exponsos of the election ; and when I now come
" Woll, will you have a man vote in the dark ?" I answer before you, 1 believe lam in the presence of one of the
"yea, because you take care a man sisal: Buller fhe votes most honest and incorruptible constituencies in the king
in the light." (Renewed cheering) Ife. man.; Ls to record dom. (Loud cheers.)
a vote, and the next day somebody is to censer up and say An En asked 31r. James if he would veto for the
" you voted for a commercial loan, or for me, "I do not care abolition of tho duty on paper ?
(greawhich, or for Mr. Peed's'', candidate wh he comes— Mr. Jastge —lf you allude to Mr. Milner Gibson's mo-
t laughter)—and I will take my cu. ,tom away from tion, most anxiously have I supported him in converse-.
you," it is disgrace to a free country ati tl the free spirit of Lion, and 1 shall be proud to vote for it as a means of edn-
Engliehinen. (Oheers.) lam in favou of t: .10 extension cation, and the diffusion of useful knowledge among the
of the franchis(, because I believe the petrel() titre qualified people,
you be ready to vote for the repeal
by their intelligence to be entrusted r right of se- Mr. SCRASE—WiII
lecting their own meridiem for the Leneislaturue —(cheers)— of he malt duty ?
but it is idle to give thorn that pliv;dege un'.s. es you also Mr.:JAMES- That is a brewere'question—(loud laughtoi)
give theta the opportunity of exercising it without danger -and more fur the Chancellor of the Exchequer than
or injury to themselves. (Cheers:, Take the, question of myself.
Church rates. if I had had the 'honour of being in raffle- Mr. PURCHASE—WouId you vote for shutting up the
mont, I would have voted for sir C Lay's bill. I hotels and public-houses of all sorts altogether ou the
think Church rates should be at once libelled Led, without Sunday ?
any equivalent and without any comproruis e. (Cheers ) Mr. JANIES—No. Why should not tho poor man get
I ant a member of the Established Church, 'tit I believe his beer at the public-house if a nobleman can go to his
that the revenues of that Church, if fairly a sal properly Club ? Shut them all up, if you like ; but do not let us
managed, are ample enough to sustain what I hope to live shut up the public-house after the hours of Divine service
to see—a resident clergyman in every parish. I wish to if I have a right to go into Brookes'a Club, and drink as
see it, not merely in a spiritual point of view, but because much wine as I please. (Cheers.)
the residence of a clergyman has a good morel and An ELEcTott—lf elected, would you pledge yourself not
social effect upon the parishioners. (Cheers.) The revenues to take office ?
of the Church are ample enough, and you hr' ma no riht to Mr. JAHES —lf I should have tho honour of being ap-
tax dissenters for the luxury of Church worship. if you pointed to office, the Constitution provides that I must
want the Church worship to be attended by luxury, pay come down immediately for re-election, and then, if I have
for it yourselves. (Cheers) I always have L eon, and always sacrificed you or any of you, turn me out. (Loud cheers.)
will be, a most strenuous advocate for the total and An Eraccron—Will you vote for the better observance
unconditioaal repeal of church rates, inflicting as they do of the Sabbath ?
an impost unjust and odious on the &distorters. (Loud Mr. Jeurts—l will not vote for any measure to make
cheers.) Civil and religious liberty is r.ot yet thoroughly people religious by Act of Parliament, for it only makes
accomplished and perfect in this county whilst the Jew them hypocrites. (Cheers.)
is excluded from Parliament. (Cheers.l No man ought to An ELEcron—A'hy did yon leave the electors of Hull ?
be excluded from Parliament on the ground of difference Mr. JADIES —Because I liked the electors of Southames
of religion—(cheers)—and nothing can be more absurd than ton better. (Load laughter and cheers,)
the argument in favour of the exclusion of Jews. I haul
recently the honour of being present at an entertainment
given to Mr. Alderman Salorcons, the late Lord Mayor of
London, and I had the pleasure of hearing presented to
him the highest testimonial ever accorded to a commercial
man. (Hear.) The wealth of the city rendered him their
homage, and testified their esteem end respect for him, and
their deep appreciation of the manner in which ho had per-
formed the duties of his high office. (Hear.) He was a
Privy Councillor during his Mayoralty, and yet ho could
not be member of Parliament afterwards—an anomaly ab-
surd and ridiculous. (Hear.) The House of Lords have
rejected the Jews because they believed the public feeling
was not yet strong enough ; and our history tells us that
the House of Lords will oppose public opinion while it is
weak, but will give way when it, is strong, and I believe,
that will be the result in this instance. (Cheers.) I men-
tioned to you the question as to crime, and it is one which
is attracting great attention. I have had the opportunity
of devoting a little attention to this matter, and I have
come to the conviction that the criminal law requires at
the hands of statesmen much revision. Look about you in
the world, and see how our criminals are made. Perhaps,
in walking along the streets of London, you see a poor little
half-clad boy, with a broom in his hand. That poor little
wretch has no education—perhaps has nowhere to sleep - -
no home to shelter him ; some important policeman comes
up and moves this unhappy child from door-step to door-
step, until at last, having no home, he has to sleep under
the Canopy of heaven, and there he takes his rest ; and as
he sleeps under the glimmering stars he wonders, perhaps,
whether God has inflicted so much misery in other and
brighter worlds. (Cheers.) In the morning he is taken
to the police court, and imprisoned for a mouth for sleep-
ing in the open air. That boy is the ticket-of-leave man
when twelve years older. (Great sensation.) 1 have seen
it and watched it. He is taken to gaol and made the asso-
ciate of felons, and lie comes out the hardened criminal.
Clime —as the statistics of it prove—is eating, like the
canker-worm, into the vitals of society, and the question
of its reformation and its punishment is almost more im-
portant, in a social point of view, than 80111 e of the political
questions of the day. (Cheers.) It must be 'approached
and looked at with a broad and statesman-like view, in
reference to the education of the child and its reformation.
Cana lawyer advocate that? He can. (Cheers.) has not
a lawyer experience from his criminal practice ? (Hoar.)
Can a lawyer attend before a committee and propound
these views? He can, if he is honest and sincere; and why
are you to say he is not, Merely because he is a lawyer ?
Upon the question of education I am aware of the difficul-
ties to bo encountered, and it is one which must be ap-
Uoached in a statesman-like and comprehensive spirit ?
ntil we shall have a system totally uusectarian, so as to
interfere with the religious feelings of no sect, 1 will be
an advocate for the voluntary principle. I will not
support a system which instructs the child, but at the
seine time offends the religious prejudices of its parents.
As to continental politics, I believe and hope the alliance
between Franco and England is sincere. We know that
there are powers at work to detach 'France from her alle-
giance, and we havtristely hall differences which the pub.
lie journals tell us are healed. la the present system of
secret diplomacy, there are so many moves on the diplo-
matic chess-board that nobody knows what is going on.
At ono time :Instil:, is allied with us, and as we saw the
other day, keeping her troops in a position to take the same
view of the treaty us England did, and supporting England
against what !night turn out to be a rupture with France.
You all very well know that Austria supported us ; but is
Austria any friend to the liberties of Europe? (No ) Look
at Italy ! (Cheers.) Look at Hungary ! Look at Naples
For wherever you see liberty endeavouring to assert her
rights, there you see Austria hovering with her troops to
suppress the first blush of nascent liberty. (Groat cheer-
ing.) It may be politic to have the alliance of Austria on
occasions of difficulty, but is she to be relied upon as lin-
ear° to England when liberty is at stake ? (Cries of " No,"
" Hear," and " Whore was England?")
say England was
whore she ought not to have been—reposing on her arms, a
silent spactatress of the partition of Polautr. Now, in the
present position of our foreign relations, with tho difreul-
ties with which we may be surrounded, Aud no man being
able to foretell whence or how soon a storm may come,
venture to think that the statesman entitled to theconfidence
of the English people is Lord Pal mortiton. (Cheers.) It is said
that Lord Palmerston has done nothing for the liberties
of the people ; but I believe he will, and I will toll you
why. Lord Palmerston, I believe, thoroughly understands
public opinion and the genius of this great people. Ile
has done more to uphold the national dignity and houeur
of Euglend, and to maintain the liberties of Europe against
despotism, than any statesman since the days of Chatham.
(Cheers.) European despotism trembles at the mane of
Palmerston; and I have a right to infer, from a man who
has done so much for the cause of liberty in Europe, that,
when he finds the opinions of the people of this country so
much in favour of onward progress, and social and political
advancement, he cannot, will not, and shall not stop—
(loud cheets)—and I can hear no one say that in the present
emergency there ie any Minister or any Statesman in whom
the public should place so much confidence as in Lord
Palmerston. (Cheers.) A statesman who will secure and
promote liberty abroad will not. retard political improve.
inset at, home. (Great elweiieg.) I am opposed to the grant
to Mae nooth ; but, understand me—l will not support Mr.
Spoouor's, or any other such motion, which I believe is
dictated by religious bigotry and intolerance. (Hear.) If
over 1 have the honour of a seat in Parliament, aud that
question is proposed, I will move, upon the principle that
I am opposed to all endowments from the State for religi-
ous purposes, that the whole question should be eonsidered
in a large and comprehensive view. I will not support
Mr. Spooner's motion, because it is instigated by bigotry
.and intolerance. I will riot set Ireland in a flame by an
act of injustice; but will support a motion to consider, in
a statesmanlike view, the whole
.question of religious
endowments, with which will ho involved the question
—an important one, Which has boon too long delayed—
namely, how far the Established Church in Ireland is
adapted to the spiritual wants of the people. (Immense
cheers.) I have now stated to you my opinions on what I
believe will be the great questions of the day, and I shall
be perfectly ready to answer any questions you may put
to me. I believe that the Government of my Lord Pal-
merston is strong. I believe that he will meet the house
with a very large majority, and what is called a strong
Government. It is when a Government is strong that
measures for the improvement of the people ought to be
proposed, for when you have party spirit running high,
factious differences, and narrow majorities, it is not the
time for considering and deciding upon groat social and
political improvements. (Hoar, hoar.) The time, in my
humble opinion, is at hand for great social and political
improvements. Our march must be onward. The thought
and the feeling of the English people decree it. (Cheers.)
I have expressed to you somewhat hurriedly my views
upon the general topics of the day and my political senti-
ments and it is because I believe that they are in unison
with hose of the majority of the electors of this important
borough that I aspire to the honour of represeutin
Parliament, in the place of one whose talents have adored
the Legislature--in whom you, upon six different occa-
sions, renewed your confidence—(cheers)—who, though he
may have offended some of you upon minor points, has
done honour to your representation—(cheers) —and who
will, I am sure, rimer with feelings of great pride and gra-
titude to the time when he was intrusted by you in Parlia-
ment with the political, social, and commercial interests of
this groat borough. (Loud and long continued cheering.)
An ELECTOR—WiII you vote for the Ballot, to protect
the voter?
Mr. JAMES—I have already answered that question. I
will. (Cheering.)
Mr. Your/us—What is your view of capital punishments ?
Mr. .Lt NiEs —l'll tell you candidly. Ido really think
now flea it would bo dangerous to abolish capital punish-
ment in cases of murder. I have given very anxious at-
tention, I assure you, to the subject. I ant aware of the
whole aystem of secondary puniehments • but I think we
have seen lately such instanc,es of uteri'. recklessness of
human life, and suck outrages upon the person, as to con-
vince us that this is not the period for considering the
question of the abolition of capital punishment,.
Mr. WILLIAM LANICESTER asked Hr. Jawes'a opinion as
to the necessity of a modification or repeal of the income
, tax??

DEPUTAIION TO SLR 13, HALL FROM THE
METROPOLITAN BOARD OE WORKS.

_ -
Yesterday a deputation from the Metropolitan Board
of Vorks waited upon Sir B. Hall, the First Connnis-
eioner of Works and Public Buildings, at the office in
Whitehall-place, in reference to the plan: for the main
drainage of the metropolis. The deputation consisted of
Mr. J. Thwaites (the chairman), accompanied by Mr.
Woolrych, the secretary, and Mr. Bazalgette, the chief
engineer; Mr. Deputy Harrison, Major Lyon, Captain
Barnett, and Messrs. Nicholay, Doulton, Howe, Brig.
tow, Seeley, Wright, Turner, and Few.
Sir B. Hall was attended by Mr. Portman, his private
secretary ; and Captain Burstall, of the Admiralty, was
present.
Mr. TIIIVAITES (addressing Sir B. Hall) said he' had
great pleasure in introducing to hint a deputation from
the Metropolitan Board of Works, and he was most happy
to say that the deputation that now attended from that
board did so in the best public spirit. Their plan
having been returned to them on the grounds stated in
the First Commissioner's letter, he might say that that
plan had been passed by a large majority of the lam-
bent of the board ; hut without making that plan the
battle ground of dismission he wished to state a few of
the reasons that had induced the board to agree to it. In
considering the question of a system of intercepting sew-
erage for London, and looking at the proposed point of
discharge, the board felt that they had substantially
complied with the act of parliament, and that they had
taken into their consideration the words of the Legisla-
ture. That they bad complied with the requirements cf
the Act of Parliament was clear, ,and every man who
was influenced on the question would say that if the
sewage was discharged at point B it would not affect the
sanitary condition of the metropolis, and no cue could
be found who would contend to the contrary. In coining
to a decision on the discharge at point B a variety of
elements had been taken into their consideration, but
the question by which they had been mainly guided was
that of finance. The board could not shut their eyes to
the fact that under the Metropolis Local Management
Act a number of local boards bad been established for
the purpose of improving the sanitary condition of their
districts, and they had set about their business with
an energy that did thorn the greatest credit, and the
consequence of those works must be the very heavy
taxation of the ratepayers. That in addition arising
fruits the district boards carrying out their wotki.,
and perfecting the net-work of sewers, would form a
heavy item of taxation on the London ratepayer., toga-
titer with their contributions towards this board. In
consequence of that heavy taxation it was a serious con-
sideration with the board in agreeing to the plan, for
they did not feel justified for the necessities of the me-
tropolis in spending one shilling more than was neces-
Nary. Havipg substantially complied with the act of
Parliament, they did not feel themselves justified iu con.
tinning the sewerage beyond the point proposed for other
than metropolitan purposes at the expense of the rate.
payers. The board were ready to carry out the work in
a comprehensive spirit, but, at the same time, as guar.
(Henri of the ratepayers, they could not shut their eyes to
the financial part of the question. The board, however,
in passing the plan, added to the resolution their wil.
lingnesteto extend the system of drainage beyond the '
metropolitan boundary for objects not metropolitan, and
wore ready to carry out toe plan if the Government
would provide them with the necessary funds far that
purpose. He (the chairman) had taken the opportunity
of stating t i the board—and he would now repeat—the
reasons why the board should ask for a grant of money •
from the public purse, and on what grounds they had a
claim. The seat of Government is situate in London,
and the representatives of the people dwelt in the metro-
polis for six months in the year. In the metropolis, too,
there was a large amount of Government property
which was entirely exempt from taxation, such as the
parks, houses of Parliament, aid several new buildings,
built at an enormous coat—Somerset-house, the Tower,
end other property, a long list of which he hold in his
baud, but which at the present time he would not more
particularly refer to. That list he would not point cut to
the First Commissioner, as the property came within his
department entirely exempt front taxation, but it would
be very materially benefited by the system of drainage
which they intended to carry out. That being so, the
board felt that they had a right to ask that board for a
contribution for works for general drainage, to be carried
to such a point so that they should not injure any one in
the metropolis, and that they would have an additional
claim if they were required to fix the outfall at some
other point beyond that indicated in plan IL He had to
repeat that the deputation appeared before him with
every desire as men of business that this question should
be brought to a satisfactory conclusion, and were more
desirous to perform a public duty than to offer views
peculiar to themselves. After the plan had been returned
for the reasons stated in the First Commissioner's letter,
he wished to ask what point would be satisfactory as the
place of discharge, and, if extended, were the Govern-
ment prepared to defray the extra coat of it? He had
great pleasure in referring to the remarkable spirit and
the determination to uphold the board, for the plan was
agreed to nearly unanimously by a majority of 3i to 1,
to carry out the object committed to their care, which he
hoped would be satisfactory to the public.
Sir B. HALL said that ho had great pleasure in meet-
ing the board, as they appeared to meet him in a good
spirit, and should have great satisfaction in aiding them
in carrying out the object for which they had been
appointed. Before they went into the question which
they had met for the purpose of discussing, and with a
view of coming to some satisfactory result from that dig
cussion, he considered it to be his duty to disabuse the
minds of members of the board on one or two points, lie
was, like other members of the public, no stranger to the
proceedings of the board, for they lived in times when,
through the press, every one became acquainted with
what was going on in public bodied. He had observed
that it had been stated that he wished to meddle and
interfere with the affairs of the board. It was not for him
to inquire why such motives wore attributed to him, but
be could say that there were no grounds for such a state-
ment, for he had no desire to meddle in their affairs, and
as a mioister of the crown ho had enough to do without
interfering in the affairs of other people, If it had been
stated that ho did wish to interfere with them, let them
take it from him that he had no such intention. It had
also been stated that he was wedded to Home particular
plan for a distant outfall, either at the mouth ',of the
Thames or of the Clerman Ocean. Now, ,he had never
given any opinion at all, but he was confined to the
terms of the act of Parliament and the construction
must on the statute. Therefore, those two point
ns they
one
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month, and that he could have given. a much earlier
answer. Now the fast was, with a vlew that as little
time as possible should be taken int
the matter, in anticipation of the plan that
of
P n . would be sent
to him, he had put himself in communication with the
Admiralty, on the 20th of May, asking them to give
him the services of some gentler with the Thames, and theunn who was conversant
and they di tides and flow of that river,
so. Captain Buratall was so instructed,
and on the 30th of June he Watt appointed. On the Ist
of July he sent him (Sir 13. Hell) his report, and on the
2d of J uly, within twenty-four hours after he received it,
it was sent to the Metropolitan Board.
Mr. TuWAITEM said he wished to disabuse Sir B.
Hall's mind, The question was not as to the outfall,
but as to the flow of the tide.
Sir 11. HALL said that was just so. As to the outfall
he could have answered that question in twenty-four
hours. Aa to the real question at issue : the chairman
had stated that the plait submitted to him had been
passed by a large majority, but he was aware that the
same plan had been rejected on several occasions by just
as large a majority.
That, however, was a matter that
he should not have adverted to but for that expression
in reference to it by their chairman. He said they had
substantially complied with the act of Parliament.
Now the words of the act of Parliament were very clear,
for they said the sewage should not be discharged at a
point in or near to the metropolis. In the first plan
the flow of sewage was into the river in the metropolis

Mr. JAMES—I think nothing has boon more unfair than
the system on which the income tax has been asseabod
upon small incomes derived from industry. I think they
bear no relation whatever to the income derived from as-
certained and realised property. The income derived from
industry is precarious, and subject to the accident of a
man's health, and sickness coming on, and disabling him.
Nothing would give me greater pleasure than to assist in
the modification of that principle. I believe it to bo moat
unjust.
An ELECTOR—What is your opinion (if the Game
Laws?
Mn. JAUEN—I think the Game Laws, when admiuistered
with severity become obnoxious. I sin not opposed to the
fair preservation of game on a gentleman's own estate,
being careful that it does no injury to the fartner—(hear)but I would not vote for a total abrogation of the Game
Laws.
Mr. JAIIES TUCKER—WiII you give us your opinion as
to an obnoxious tax now being collected in the
Itolyrood, called Ministers' Duos? pariah of
Mr. JA.411:4 —I think they should share the same fate as