The Sun.
London, England, 1860-06-19 00:00:00

THE WEEDON COMMISSION.

Colonel DUNNE then rose, pn-want to nOth,e, to eat
the attention of the house to the proceedings or this com-
mission and to the expenses incurred by it. He said that
during the Crimean war it was the fashion to change every-
thing connected with the military establishments. Among
other changes was that of forming a large depot at Weedon,
and Mr. Elliot, who had had large experience, was ap-
pointed to preside over it. After the war was over a com-
mittee of the house was appointed to consider the system
of contracting for the army ; and after that committee
had carried its inquiries to a certain length, a special com-
mission was appointed to inquire into the case of Weedon,
and this, he was sorry to say, stopped the inquiry of the
contracts committee. Instead, however, of appointing
military men to conduct the inquiry at Weedon, they ap-
pointed a police magistrate, a manufacturer who was a
member of that house—both of them men of high cha-
racter, but knowing nothing of military affairs—and an old
officer of considerable experience. They proceeded to exa-
mine into this establishment, and they found that no books
had been kept, and that everything was in confusion, and
they made a report which he might say was not satisfac-
tory. However, he did not intend to go into the report, as
he was certain that the commissioners acted to the best of
their judgment. Mr. Commissary Adams, with a staff of
clerks, was investigating the accounts, but the commission-
ers appointed Mr. Jay, an accountant, to investigate them,
and a question had arisen between the Treasury and the
commissioners as to their right to appoint Mr. Jay. Mr.
Jay's bill, he might say, amounted to £B,OOO, and the Trea-
.

sury disputed their liability ; and the question was, whe-
ther the country was to pay this enormous bill. The ex-
penses of the commission in addition amounted to some
£lO,OOO. The expenses of our m;litary and civil establish-
ments had become so enormous that the country, with all
its wealth, must pay some attention to them. We could no
go on unless more attention was paid to the details of our
military expenditure, A great deal was lost by the want
of a good military organisation. They would find on exa-
mination that the greitest order and economy prevailed in
the military establishments of France, which were much
better organised than ours. (Hear.)
Mr. J. A. TURNER assured the house that it was with
very great reluctance that he intruded himself upon their
attention for a few minutes, because he was not one of those
who was in the habit by needless talk of hindering the
progress of public business. But having been engaged
during four months of a recess after a hard session in the
investigation to which the gallant colonel had alluded, and
having given his best attention to the subject, without any
prejudice, but with a sincere desire to bend his mind to a
difficult subject, he did not expect that he should be spoken
of by the gallant officer as having involved the country in
needless expense. He received a request from the then
Secretary for War that he would allow himself to be nomi-
nated as the mercantile member of the commission, and
he told him that there would be associated with him one
of the police magistrates and an officer of nearly 50 years'
standing. He consented very reluctantly, but not until he
had consulted Sir Benjamin Hawes, one of the Under-Se-
cretaries for War, who said he thought the inquiry might
be over in a fortnight. He informed Sir Benjamin Hawes
that if he supposed he should go through with an inquiry
of that sort in a fortnight he had mistaken his man, that
he was determined to go into it unprejudiced, that he would
have no prejudice towards the old colonels, who were de-
sirous, he believed, of going back to the old system of
clothing the army—he did not allude to the gallant colonel
who had brought forward this question. He added that he
had no prejudice either against the army contractors, but
he was determined to have a thorough investigation, and
he accepted the office. At one of the first meetings of the
commission he informed the authorities at the War-office
that they should not be at all satisfied with any examina-
tion of the accounts by the officials of the War-office, and
that it was their intention to have an independent ac-
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countant.
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The commissioners were informed that Mr.
ienTudmuteyrprn.ecenlri
ted)reaknsmsat inves-
tigatingiswadac,eycrn,ocouatnsyht a
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official in the War-office :—" I suppose it will be satis-
factory to the authorities at the War. office as it will be
to us that there should be a thorough investigation of the
account keeping at Weedmi by an independent man, who
has ne conne6;on with the War- office?" and the answer was
" Quite so." As the evidence was daily reported to the War
office, and not a word was ever said to stop them from having
an independent inquiry, he said that from the outset of the
inquiry they had the sanction of the War-office for such an
investigation. When they went down to Wecdon they found
things much in the state they were likely to be. There was
Mr. Commissary Adams there with 20 clerks investigating
the accounts, and at the close of a statement in writing
which he gave them prior to giving his evidence, he said—
" It must be observed that even the accounts thus prepared"

—he was referring to the accounts he was engaged upon—
"cannot be deemed satisfactory public accounts until it has
been thoroughly ascertained in the course of the examina-
tion at the War-office that all purchases and all transac-
tions with contractors and the army packers in Mark-lane
have been properly accounted for. It must also be observed

that the present accounts are drawn up from a mass of docu-
ments, a very large number of which are defective, one-half
of them without any examination whatever, and there is no
guarantee that they represent all the transactions at the de-
pot." Now, how could such an account be deemed satisfac-
tory? When they came to examine him he was asked this
question—" You have considerable experience no doubt in
accounts. Did you ever in the course of your experience
find anything so disgraceful in the mode of keeping accounts
in any stores 7" And the answer was, " There has been no
keeping of accounts at all." "Do you not think that if any
private establishment acted upon the system of non-book-
keeping it would in a short time be in the Court of Bank-
ruptcy ?" And his answer was, " I think it is very likely
they would." Again he was asked, " Are the vouchers to
which you have alluded not valid vouchers ?" And the an-
swer was, "To some of them there areno signatures. There
are 700 or 800 objectionable vouchers altogether." When the
commissioners returned to London they made a representa-
tion to the War-office that they should not be satisfied with
accounts made up of such unsatisfactory materials, and
that it would be better that the accountant who had been
engaged up to that time on the system of keeping accounts
should go into the matter in a mercantile manner, andthere
was no question about it that they had the consent of the
then Secretary for War to have that investigation. Com-
missary-General Adams and all his staff were dismissed, and
the books were placed in the hands of the first accountants

in London, Quilter, Ball, and Jay, and they went through
the accounts to the time that Captain Gordon took charge
of the depot at Weedon. They had made a very heavy
charge—too heavy he thought—but they had at all events
accomplished this matter; they had shown that after all

here was no very great defalcation of stores at Weedon, and
that the articles for which the Treasury paid were delivered.
The accounts, after all the labour bestowed upon them,
were not quite satisfactory, inasmuch as there were some
little discrepancies in the balances ; but on the whole he
was satisfied there had been a valid accounting for the
articles at Weedon. He was one of the commissioners, and '
to him the inquiry was satisfactory. No doubt they had
been blamed by many parties, but it should be remembered
that the commissioners were not appointed to support any
system or party in office, but were appointed for the purpose
of examining the accounts and books, and in doing so they
had sacrificed their time, and two of them at least had suf-
fered in their health. He thought it was now very unfair
that the commissioners should be blamed, and strange that
they were not better supported by the authorities. The
commission was issued during a Conservative Government,
and possibly there might have been some disposition to look
into the bad system of keeping the accounts by their pre-
decessors. But since the present Government had been
in power they had not looked upon the report of the
commissioners very favourably, and recently the hon.
gentleman the Secretary to the Treasury had referred to
" that unfortunate Weedon commission." No doubt it
had been unfortunate to many—to colonels, contractors,
and the Government officials ; it had also been un-
fortunate to the commissioners, who, after having devoted
a long time to a laborious and troublesome investigation,
had not, at least so far as he was concerned, received the
slightest thanks for what they had done. He would, how-
ever, appeal to the house, if he did not to the Government,
to say that they had performed their duty faithfully, ho-
nestly, and well. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. MONSELL said he believed the commissioners did
pay very great attention to the matter they had in hand,
and they certainly deserved the thanks of the house for the
trouble which they took in investigating the accounts.
(Hear, hear.) He rose for the purpose of calling attention
to a paper of some importance just placed in the hands of
members. It stated that £105,000 would be required this
year for cavalry horses. Now, there was to be no augmen-
tation of cavalry this year—no new regiments would be
formed. It appeared by the papers received this morning
that in 1858-59 £Bl,OOO was required for horses, and in that
year there were two new regiments. In 1859-60--an ordi •
nary year—there was no augmentation, and only £55,000
was asked. He therefore wished to ask how it was that
£105,000 was required this year ?
M. S. HERBERT said, with respect to the observations
which had been made by his hon. friend behind him (Mr.
Turner) in reference to the Weedon Commission, though
he (Mr. Herbert) was net in office at the time, and conse-
quently spoke without any authority upon the subject, yet
he must say his hon. friend was wrong in thinking that the
Government did not entertain a very high sense of the
services which were rendered, and gratuitously, by his
hon. friend, in elucidating the very complicated system of
account-keeping at Weedon. He believed that many of the
errors arose at the time of the consolidation of the offices.
The hon. and gallant officer who preceded him in office ap•
pointed the commissioners, and he made a very good selec-
tion. They undertook the inquiry, and everything was left
in their hands, and they discovered that there had been
very great neglect and confusion in keeping the accounts,
and those and other things had since been rectified. With
respect to the question about the purchase of cavalry
horses he thought he could show h;s hon. fr:end (Mr. Mon-
sell) some documents which would prove that the sum in the
estimate was required, and it must be remembered that
there would be two regiments from India which would re-
quire to be re-horsed.
Col. GILPIN said it was entirely a mistake to suppose
that the colonels were anxious to retarn to the old system,
but, on the contrary, they desired to get rid of it, and the
wntet attached to it. But it should be remembered
that under the old system in clothing the regiments the
Government had the responsibility of the colonel end the
contractor that the articles would be good, and if they were
not so, and were sent to the regiments and did not suit the
men, the loss fe'l upon the colonels and the contractor, but
now the loss fell upon the public, and he understood that
serious losses had ensued.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said he wished to call attention
to the apparently unsatisfactory way in which the army
estimates had been prepared, and it came to this, that it
was a perfect waste of time to the house to discuss the ques-
tion of the estimates, for there was no certainty that the
expenditu-e would be equal with the votes. If the house
compared the expenditure with the estimates of the last
year, they would find some great discrepancies. He found
in one year the sum voted was a little over £12,000,000,
and the amount expended was £12,516,000, or £516,000
more than voted by Parliament. That was an important
fact to bear in mind. The difficulty was a formidable one
to grapple with, and it was clear that if the house once
granted a sum of money which far exceeded the wants of
the country under one head, they enabled the Government
to do what they pleased with it under any other head of
expenditure, and upon the whole £1,281,000 had in one
year been so spent upon various items without the autho-
rity of the house.
The house then went into committee of supply, Mr.
MASSEY in the chair.
On the estimate that £196,224 be granted for the depart-
ments of the Secretary of State for Warand of the General
Commanding-in- C hief,
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said his hon. and gallant friend
(Sir F. Smith) had misunderstood the objections which he
had taken to these estimates. He thought they were pay-
ing money, and not receiving their full value for it. (Hear.)
If his hon. and gallant friend had carefully examined the
accounts presented relating to 1858-9, he would find that
the estimates presented to the house were not so accurate
and so truthful as they ought to be. There had beon many
promises to amend these things, but those promises were
not performed as they should be. (Hear.)
Mr. WILLIAMS remarked upon the increase in the ex-
penses of the Secretary for War's department, as also in
that of the office of the Commander-in-Chief—nearly
£ll,OOO in the two departments. The Secretary for War
had stated that he was responsible for all the acts of the
Commander• in-Chief, and perhaps the right hon. gentleman
was the fittest person to have such a responsibility ; but he
ought to be really responsible—a thing which was impos-
sible from the high position of the head of the Horse
Guards.

Sir F. SMITH said that the cause of the increase this
year was that the estimates of last year had been found in-
sufficiezt in the staff department. There would probably
be no more increase next year. Ho must take that oppor-
tunity of noticing the case of the extra clerks in the War
office, 125 in number. One gentleman, 58 years of age,
had been 18 years in the service, and others had seen long
periods of service. He thought that the appointments of
these gentlemen should be made permanent.
Colonel GILPIN complained of the number of messen-
gers, and the amount paid for that department.
Colonel DICKSON complained of the number of tempo-
rary messengers.

Colonel SYKES pointed out an anomaly in the salaries
of the secretaries. The first secretary got £l,OOO a-year,
the next got £BOO, and the junior got £975. He wished for
an explanation.

Mr. HERBERT—With regard to the payment of the
deficiency of one year from the surplus of the other, it could
not be done without the sanction of the Treasury, or of Par-
liament. But it was occasionally of great importance that
the power to some extent should exist. The House of Com-
mons was not always sitting. Last recess a sum of money
was wanted to make rifled guns for the navy, and if ho had
waited for Parliament four or h..° months would have been
lost in a very urgent case. As a general rule the Treasury
exercised an earnest vigilance, but in an estimate of fifteen
millions it was impossible to be exact to a fraction. As to
the increase in the office expenses, there was a great pres-
sure on the offices last year, and a considerable reduction
of clerks might be expected in the present. He
did not like to make promises, but it did appear to
him that it was possible tc diminish the amount ,
of writing in the War-office. With regard to the tempo-

rary clerks, ho was quite of opini)n that it would be bettor

to reduce the system considerably and to enlarge the per-

manent establishment. But there was this advantage, that

they could select from the temporary clerks the men who
were to compote for the permanent appointments, and these
would be the best, having derived so much practical expe-
rience. Such extra clerks as had passed the age of 25 would
not be permitted to compete. He could not answer the
question of the hon, member for 'Aberdeen respecting the

salaries of the three secretaries. The increase in the num-
ber of messengers arose from the enormous increase of busi-
.

ness in the War-office as Wellaain all the public depart-
ments. It seemed as if of late years the whole population
of the country had taken to writing to the different depart-
ments of the Government.
After sonic further conversation, the vote was agreed to.

160,

£249,000 to complete the charge for the manufacturing
departments, after some discussion was agreed to.
On the vote of £550,231 for wages for artificers, labourers,
Scc.,

Sir J. PAXTON hoped that if the present increase in the
number of labourers were only temporary, the right hon.
gentleman would at least take care the men were not thrown
out of employment in a large mass, as they had been after
the Russian war.

Mr. F. PEEL was afraid that the columns which pro-
fessed to give the number of persons employed in the manu-
facturing departments did not give accurate information.
He wished also to put a question with regard to the carriage
department. There was a difference, as he understood, be-
tween the revised and the original estimates; an increase of
2,000 men, representing a sum of £240,000, was met by a
reduction of £BO,OOO. He would hire to know what was the
work it was proposed to execute by means of the £BO,OOO,
which it was now found convenient to dispense with.
Mr. S. HERBERT said that at first sight it seemed
strange, no doubt, that with an increased number of hands
there should be a diminution in the vote; but this was ac-
counted for by boys and girls being employed in making up
small arms ammunition. With regard to the carriage de-
partment, it was found that they could make carriages faster
than they could make guns which required carriages ; but
instead of dismissing any men they diminished the over-
time, which in the long run was found to be very expen-
sive.

The vote was then agreed to.
Upen the vote of £220,000 for clothing and necessaries,
Colonel DUNNE complained of the manner in which the
contracts for clothing were carried out, and said he under-
stood that the clothing that was due in April last had not
yet been delivered.
After a few words from Sir F. S3trTle the vote was
agreed to.
The next vote was £851,377, for provisions, forage, fuel,
light, &c.
Sir F. SMITH urged greater economy in regard to the
item for barrack furniture.
Colonel DICKSON expressed a hope that the Secretary
for War would take into consideration the giving to cavalry
officers their forage free. Some steps should also be taken to
save soldiers from the awful amount of fleecing which they
underwent for barrack damage.
Colonel NORTH supported the appeal of the hon. and
gallant gentleman.
After a brief discussion the vote was agreed to.
On the vote for £1,365,088 for warlike stores for the land
and naval service,
Mr. MONSELL complained of the great increase in the
vote as compared with last year.
Sir F. SMITH objected to some items under the head of
miscellaneous stores.
Sir S. NORTHCOTE also referred to the large increase
in the miscellaneous estimates, particularly those for India.
He also wished to know when the returns ordered of the
account between the Indian Government and English War-
office would be laid upon the table.
Mr. S. HERBERT said, with regard to the increase in
this vote, it included nearly 17,000 items, and therefore it
was almost impossible to give an answer off hand upon any
particular item. With regard to small arms he was able
to state that the Government would have a much larger
delivery of those arms this year than they had last; and,
according to the arrangements they had made, they would
have a much more rapid issue of Government stores gene-
rally. In respect of the arms issued to volunteers, the
volunteers themselves were bound to replace any injury
done to those arms. With regerd to timber, he should be
very sorry to see a reduction of the amount of timber now
in store. (Hear, hear.).
Sir J. PAXTON observed that he had been told the
Armstrong gun had cost the country, directly and indirectly,
£1,000,000 of money. He had no objection to that if it
would perform the services which it was stated it would do ;
but he should like to know if the right hon. gentleman had
turned his attention to the Whitworth gun and the Whit-
worth rifle. The Whitworth rifle was he believed the best
rifle ever made, and it hal stood the test of all competition.
No doubt Sir W. Armstrong had spent a large sum of
money on the perfecting of his gun, and he believed Mr.
Whitworth had spent between £30,000 and £40,000 on his.
He believed, moreover, that if we did not engage Mr.
Whitworth in making guns for us ho would make guns for
somebody else.
Mr. MONSELL thought it would be an unfortunate
thing if, in case the Whitworth gun should be adopted, Sir
W. Armstrong should be the person who would have to
test it and report upon it at Woolwich.
Sir F. SMITH asked, was there to be a trial between the
two guns, either as to range or accuracy, or both ?
Mr. S. HE RBERT said-that Sir W. Armstrong and Mr.
Whitworth could each turn out the best guns which could
be made. As to the Whitworth rifle, there was no doubt
that it was one of the best rifles made ; but it cost £lO,
whereas the Enfield rifle cost only £2 18s. The ordinary
life of a rifle was ten years, and therefore it would cost some-
thing like £10,000,000 to replace the Enfield rifle by the
Whitworth. With regard to the Armstrong guns they were
very expensive, but he thought he might say they cost less
than at first.
Sir F. SMITH considered that both in the interest of the
soldier and the country the "Whitworth rifle ought to be
placed in the hands of all our soldiers.
Lord FERMO Y thought it was rather an unbusiness-
like proceeding that the Government should first buy the
Whitworth gun and try it afterwards. Supposing the Whit-
worth gun should turn out better than the Armstrong gun,
surely that would have an effect upon the price.
Colonel SYKES said he was assured that the Enfield
rifle when fired rapidly also fouled rapidly.
Captain JERVIS said he doubted whether the Whit-
worth rifle might not foul even more quickly than the En-
field, since the diameter of its bore was smaller.
The vote was then agreed to. The next vote for works,
buildings, and repairs of fortifications, was postponed. The
next vote was £206,500, for works, buildings, and repairs
of " civil buildings" at home and abroad,
Sir F. SMITH asked for explanations as to several of
the items in this vote, and amongst them a charge of
£50,000 for the school of gunnery at Shoeburyness.
Mr. S. HE ÜBE RT replied with regard to Shoeburyness,
that the school of gunnery there was an establishment
which he desired to bring to completion as speedily as pos-
sible, and make it a counterpart to the school of musketry
which had been established at Hythe. The erection of a
barrack there, which was the object of this vote, would save
the :lodging. money at present paid to the men, who were
obliged to find lodgings three or four miles off, and he be-
lieved this saving would go far to repay the expenditure.
The vote was then agreed to.
The next vote was £707,607 for barracks at home and

abroad.
Col. NORTH urged that special accommodation ought
to be provided for lunatic soldiers in the hospital at Netley
or elsewhere.
Mr. MONSELL asked for an explanation of the large
vote of £120,000 for building a new hospital at Woolwich.
Mr. S. NORTHCOTE remarked that the estimates for
these works were always greatly exceeded by the actual
expenditure. In the case of the new Staff College at Sand-
hurst, they had already voted a considerable sum, and before
it could be completed it would have cost £95,000, although
the estimate for it was but £70,000. For the new barracks
at Chelsea the original estimate was £140,600, but they had
already voted £120,000, and it would r4quire £140,000 more.
For the new hospital at Manchester, the estimate for which
was £292,000, they had actually voted £285,000, and
£lBO,OOO was how asked for. These building operations
would be much better carried on by the Board of Works.
Sir J. PAXTON called attention to the charge for gas
works and mains at Aldershott, amounting to £21,000,
which would be enough to provide gas for a whole town, and
ho did not see why gas should be provided for a camp.
Sir M. PETO suggested that it would be a great im•
provement to remove Kensington barracks altogether.
Mr. S. HE RBERT said, with regard to the lunatic asy-
lum, it was quite true that the committee reported in favour
of it, and it was brought before the sanitary commi sion,
but the commission thought it best, on the whole, net to
recommend a new asylum to be built to be n- anaged by
Government authority. He had no faith in houses of that
description under government management. A discussion
had been raised upon Netley Hospital, and a hon. gentle-
man behind him had spoken in very severe terms of the
building. He did not think he spoke in terms a bit too severe.
Three years ago, when the plan was proposed, he (Mr. S.
Herbert) protested against it, and a commission, of which
he was then a member, reported against it, and he brought
the matter before the house. A great deal had been said
about the inaptitude of military hospitals to the purpose for
which they were intended, and that was quite true. But in
civil hospitals, and especially in the hospitals in London,
there was great inaptitude. They were now building bar-
racks, which would be incomparably better hospitals, gene-
rally speaking, than the present hospitals, or than the hos-
pital at Netley. The hospital at Netley was a very expen-
sive construction, and the long corridors which had been
described, with rooms at the end, turning to the north-east,
with no side ventilation, of course were not good for the
treatment of the sick. Now-a-days peoplehad come to com-
mon-sense ideas about the treatment of the sick, and knew
that ash air was one of the best means of their recovery.
An hon. member had asked why they did not go to the
Board of Works to get them to build the barracks, or to
civil architects ? Now, the Engineers built the best barracks,
because they were the best acquainted with the wants of the
soldier. The Raglan Barracks at Devonport were built for
£7O a man, which was not a very heavy sum ; Preston, for
£80; Gosport, £9l; Aldershott, £7l; and the tenders of the
civil architects were £146, £2OO, and £212 per man. For
cavalry the cost was £lB6, £195, and £2OO a man, and the
tenders were £330, £370, and £340. If they required large
works building, engineers would do them cheaper and bet-
ter, but for small works their estimates were preposterous.
The Staff College had accommodation for 40 officers, 41 ser-
vants, stabling for 48 horses, halls for study, lecture rooms,
laboratory, &c. The total estimate for the Chelsea barracks
was put down at £140,000. A very large sum—£l2o,ooo
—was taken last year, but that was taken for the site
alone. He was happy to say that they had got the
site for a great deal less than the estimate—almost the
only instance in which this had occurred. In the case
of Gravesend there was an error in the printed es-
timates; the £17,000 spent last year was spent in the pur-
chase of land, and not for the erection of buildings. The
Euston Hotel at Fleetwood had not been taken for barrack

accommodation, but for a duplication of the establishment
at Ilythe, which was entirely overdone. At York and
Nottingham, both cavalry barracks, a small sum was taken
for buildings at each. The Government thou_ ht it better
not to scatter the cavalry regiments about the country, but
to build regiments sufficient for whole regiments. The bar-
racks at Leeds were certainly in a very bad state, and it be-
came a question whether they should spend money upon
them or sell them. He thought it would be better to sell
them ; the situation was very unsuitable for barracks. At
Edinburgh a very picturesque design had been recom-
mended for new barracks, but the inhabitants themselves
had offered no contributions. It would be better to get a
site out of town instead of taking place which they should
probably disfigure, The case was the Sµ me at Glasgow; it
would be wise not to attempt to build within the town,
where the ground was valuable, but to find some site out-
side, where they could build at less expense. At Woolwic::

it was necessary to build either new barracks or a new hos-
pital.
The hospital was a very bad hospital, but it would
make very good barracks. He was extremely anxious to
have a good hospital built, at a place where the air was
pure. Reference had been made to the improvements in
barracks ; it was impossible to have executed them all in the
first year, but a great deal had been done; 2,327 barrack-
rooms and 349 hospital wards had been ventilated, in round
numbers, two-fifths of the barrack-rooms, and one-half of
the hospital wards. It would be seen that at any rate the
authorities had not been idle in carrying into effect the re-
commendations of the Commissioners. There was an im-
mense pressure upon them ; and could the house have seen
the estimates that had been sent in by the different depart-
ments they would have been astonished.

Mr. HEN LEY regretted the decision to which the go-
vernment had arrived with regard to lunatic soldiers. The
arrangements of the asylum at Chatham were perhaps as
unsatisfactory as those of any public institution in the
country. He understood that the government intended to
distribute these sufferers throughout the country in private
asylums, whilst the legislature had determ ned years ago
to withdraw pauper lunatics from private asylums, and to
place them in county asylums.
Mr. HERBERT explained that the lunatic soldiers who
had friends were to be sent to the county asylums where
they resided ; it was only the remainder who were to be
sent to
,a private asylum. They were not to be dispersed
throughout the country, but to be placed in a single asylum.
Mr. B. OSBORNE called attention to the sum of £5,000
for gymnasiums. He thought they were places where
more ace dents, such as ruptures and the like, were likely
to occur than elsewhere. He hoped the right hon. gentle-
man would give some explanation of this vote.
Mr. S. HERBERT said that the government had sent
an officer to Paris and Berlin to inquire into the gymnasi-
ums and systems of gymnastics for the army at both of
those capitals. It was found that the French had paid
particular attention to gynasiums for the sake of developing
the strength and dexterity of the men. The results of the
system were most extraordinary, showing it to be extremely
useful in giving wonderful muscular power to men who
were certainly not naturally athletic. It had been deter-
mined to adopt them here in a modified way. But it was
not intended, as the•hon. gentleman supposed, that the men
should use them at all times, and without any control, a
course which would very likely lead to accidents. The men
would not bo allowed to enter them except at specified
hours, and then always under the superintendence of a
properly qualified officer, under circumstances in which
risks of danger would be almost entirely removed.
Colonel LINDSAY said that gymnastics had been in-
troduced into one of the battalions of the Guards under
Colonel Hooke with the happiest results. He was not able
to say positively that no accident had ever occurred ; but
there had certainly not been more than one.
Mr. B. 0 SB 0 RNE still persisted that the expenditure was
unnecessary. It would be far better to encourage the men
to play at cricket and other manly games than to introduce
athletic exercises by way of drill. If any one would support
him he would divide the committee against the vote.
Col. P. HERBERT was glad to perceive that the Secre-
tary for War was disposed to stick to this item, and he
could not help expressing the surprise he felt at seeing a
hon. gentleman who, he believed, had served in the army,
opposing it.
Mr. B. OSBORNE—The hon. gentleman has convinced
me. I will divide against this vote.
Col. NORTH made some remarks about the Guards'
barracks ; and in reference to a cry of " Divide," declared
with some warmth that he would not be put down by the
mercantile gentleman who was calling for a division oppo-
site. (Laughter.)
In answer to Major PARKER,
Mr. S. HERBERT said that the item of £lO,OOO for rifle
ranges was not for the volunteer corps, but for ranges in the
neighbourhood of certain military stations.
Col. DICKSON should support the amendment, if only
to show that it was possible to reject a vote. He had no
objection to gymnasiums, bat he thought there were things
that were wanted much more.
The committee then divided—
For reducing the vote by the sum of
£5,000
Against it
The vote was then agreed to.
On the vote of £277,547 for the several educational and
scientific establishments, &c.,
Mr. CHILDERS asked the house to pause before it com-
mitted itself to granting such a large sum as required for
the Ordnance survey included in this vote. He would move
the reduction of the vote by £lO,OOO.
Mr. CARDWELL supported the vote, and stated that a
commission which had been appointed had recommended
the larger scale of survey, which would in the end be the
most economical, though a larger sum was asked for at the

present time.
Colonel DUNNE expressed a strong preference for the
six inch scale, and should like to know what would be the
expense of surveying the whole kingdom on one uniform
six inch scale.
Mr. A. SMITH confirmed the condemnation of the
twenty.five inch scale. He should have preferred a mul-
tiple of the six inch scale.
Mr. MONSELL thought that the only question which
the house had to consider was whether they should not
have a large map in addition to the one inch map. If they
had a largo map ho should prefer a twenty-five inch map.
If they had a large map it would require millions of money,
and therefore he suggested that, as the matter required
serious consideration, the best thing they could do now
would be to report progress. (Hear.)
Mr. JOSEPH LOCKE agreed with what had fallen from
the hon. gentleman who spoke last. He believed the de-
cision of the house was that certain parts of Scotland only
should be surveyed on the twenty-five inch scale ; but he
understood that that large scale had been extended to other
parts of Scotland in opposition to the authority of the house.
Mr. E. ELLICE, jun., complained that the survey of
Scotland was not in so forward a state as it ought to be. A
general survey, however, on a twenty-five inch scale would
involve the continuance of a costly department to revise the
map from time to time, without any corresponding advan-
tage.

Mr. S. HERBERT thought that in the present state of
the house it would be better to postpone this vote.
The vote was consequently withdrawn.
The CriArnmAN was then ordered to report progress, and
the house resumed.

SPIRITS BILL.
This bill was committed pro forma.
PHCENIX PARK BILL.
This bill passed through committee.
ANSTRUTHER UNION HARBOUR BILL.

The house went into committee on this bill, but imme
diately resumed.

The committee on the Customs Acts was postponed.
TENISON'S CHARITY BILL.
This bill was read a second time.
CRIMINAL LUNATIC ASYLUM BILL.
This bill was read a second time.
ROMAN CATHOLIC CHARITIES BILL.
The debate on this bill was adjourned.
INLAND BONDING.

The house having gone into committee of the whole
house, leave was given to bring in a bill to authorise inland
bonding under certain circumstances.
RAILWAY CHEAP TRAINS.

On the motion of Mr. M. GIBSON leave was given to
make perpetual an act of the 21st and 22d years of her pre-
sent Majesty to amend the law relating to cheap trains, aad
to restrain the exercise of certain powers by canal companies
being also railway companies.