The Sun.
London, England, 1860-07-20 00:00:00

covered of remedying what everybody admits to be a
grievance Ido not undertake to suggest to your lordships
which of these modes would be the preferable course. On
the contrary, I think it is a matter which had much better
be left to the Government ; and on consultation with their
colleagues in the other house, they will propose such a mea-
sure as they on their responsibility shall think fit. I do
not therefore intend to trespass further on your lord-hips'
indulgence then to lay before you the statement which I
have made as to the state of public business, and the nature
of the only remedy which I believe can be successful. If it
be convenient to the house, for the sake of regularity, I
shall move that a committee be appointed to consider
this question, of course without the slightest intention of
pressing that motion. I hope my noble friend the Presi-
dent of the Council, who I presume will follow me, will not
satisfy himself with saying, in his usual courteous manner,
that he is sure the house and the Government are much in-
debted to the noble earl opposite—(cheers and laughter)—
for the pains which he has taken in making his remarks on
this subject, and for the very clear exposition which he has
given of the difficulties of the case ; and that he would
assure the noble lord that he concurs with him in thinking
the subject one of very deep importance, and that it shall
receive the very best consideration of ttie Government.
(Renewed laughter and cheers.) Of course, I don't expect
any specific plan from my noble friend to-night, but I hope
to obtain from him something more definite than the cour-
teous answer which I have heard from him on more than
one occasion. I hope he will give us some intimation of
the view which the Government take of this question, and
that he will be able to say whether or not his colleagues
are of opinion that any legislation or any resolution, or any
other course by which an agreement might be come to by
both houses, is likely to meet with success, or would in
their opinion be a mode of diminishing, if not altogether
doing away with the inconvenience which both houses, and
your lordships' house in particular, must feel in being
called on either to reject bills passed by the other house,
and thus to render it necessary to begin again with them
next session with probably as little chance of success, or
else to pass them without giving them that consideration
which it is due to your character and the interest of the
country you should give before affixing your sanction to
any legislative measure. (Hear.) The noble earl concluded
by a formal motion for the appointment of a select committee.
Earl GRANVlLLE—Notwithstanding the protest of the
noble earl, I must say that I think both houses are indebted
to him for having brought the subject under our notice, and
further, that I think he has made a most clear statement of
the evils which exist. (Hear, hear.) The house will agree
with me, too, that the noble earl has amply redeemed the
pledge which he gave the other night that he intended to
treat the question entirely as one of public importance and
divested of any party spirit. (Hear.) lam free to admit
that there are circumstances this year, though as far as the
Government is concerned a satisfactory explanation of them
alight be given, which a leader of Opposition might be
tempted to make use of in a party spirit. There is no doubt
as to the existence of the evil, though I think there is some-
thing to be said on the other side. My noble friend said that
somewhere about 150 bills had been, or would be, brought
under the consideration of Parliament this session. I am
not altogether clear whether it is desirable that that number
of bills should be passed every session ; but, on the other
hand, there is no doubt that the present difficulties of legis-
lation do prevent useful measures being passed, for no other
reason but the accumulation of business. This is not a new
evil. The noble earl himself says he called attention to it 12
years ago ; and I remember hearing both Lord Aberdeen and
Lord Lansdowne say that they had heard similar complaints
for nearly 50 yearspast. At the same time it must be admitted
that the evil is rather on the increase than the decrease, and
this year it has been so great as to be hindrance to the pass-
ing of useful and necessa' y measures. (Hear.) The noble earl
said that one remedy which we have attempted to apply
was the resolution which we pass annually, fixing a certain
day after which we will not read a bill a second time. I
remark that that resolution has been pointed to elsewhere
as a hindrance to legislation, and I have often thought that
it was a resolution which might fairly be questioned. It
was agreed to by your lordships, however, for your own de-
fence, and as far as I can form an opiui ,n, if acted upon with
a certain elasticity, it works usefully, and has not a disad-
vaxtageous effect on the legislation of the other house.
(Hear.) With regard to the other remedy proposed by the
noble earl—the suspending of bills at a certain stage, so as
to make it possible to take them up in another session—it
is a most important question, and one to which, so far as
your lordships are concerned, you have given your assent
by passing the bill of the noble earl same years ago. Con-
stitutional objections may be urged to it, I believe ; but,
not having perhaps thoroughly considered the subject, I
cannot see the force of them. With regard to private
bills, where both houses act more as courts of

justice than legislative bodies, it is an immense
hardship on parties, when, for a public object, they
have gone to a considerable expense in promoting a bill,
that, having got to a certain stage, if they don't get a step
further the whole of the money is sacrificed and they have
to begin again. (Hear, hear.) A question was raised as to
the principle here involved in the case of the impeachment
of Warren Hastings. If I remember rightly the lawyers
raised an objection that the impeachment abated in conse-
quence of a dissolution. I don't know that they were not
right, but they were laughed out of it by Burke, who said
that " though they might be competent to understand the
gestation of a mouse they were not competent to under-
stand the gestation of an elephant." This shows, however,
that:a:constitutional objection might be raised. At the same
time, there is no doubt that any general change in the
principle of our legislation is one which requires the
greatest care. (Hear, hear.) My noble friend said he
hoped I would not give any vague answer. Well, I am
ready to inform him that I have communicated with my
colleagues in the other house several times on the sub-
ject, but in the present pressure of business the Go-
vernment have not found it possible to bestow that atten-
tion to the subject which it is necessary to give before com-
mitting themselves to any definite plan. During the s ecess
the subject will receive full consideration, and if it appears
likely that any satisfactory result would be obtained I think
it would be most desirable that some inquiry should take
place in order to arrive unanimously, if possible, at some plan
which would be of assistance to the progress of legislation.
I believe there has not been a joint committee of both houses
for 200 years, but it is quite competent to both houses to
appoint a joint committee. I believe the objection which
led to their ceasing came from your lordships. You objected
that the House of Commons would not take off their hats, as
at a conference—(a laugh)—and you also objected to their
claim to have a double number of members. If a joint
committee were not appointed the other plan of the noble
earl might be adopted—two separate committees to con-
sider the question, authorised to communicate with each
other. These, however, are matters of detail, which
may be considered during the recess. I don't propose
to take any action this year. Among other reasons, be-
sides the lateness of the session, it is quite clear
that it is not the best moment to choose to propose a
joint action on any subject of this kind, when questions
have arisen between the two houses with regard to which a
certain number of members feel a soreness at an unusual
proceeding of your lordships. It is obvious that, whatever
measure is adopted, it should be as nearly as possible unani-
mously adopted by both houses. (Hear, hear.)
Lord BROUGHAM concurred with the Lord President in
thanking Lord Derby for the clear, useful, and (to coin a
word to describe a novelty) " unparty" statement which he
had made on this subject. It was the duty of Parliament,
without more delay than was absolutely necessary, to endea-
vour to apply a remedy to this evil, but circumstances had
recently occurred which rendered it expedient that imme •
diate action should not be taken. The course which he
would recommend would be a joint committee, and in what-
ever way that committee was composed—whether or not the
Commons had an equal number—he was sure that they
would not be found to give their votes in two divisions, one
of the Lords and the other of the Commons, so as to bring
matters to a standstill, but that the important subject com-
mitted to them should be fairly and calmly discussed, with
a view of arriving at some practical and useful result. Par-
liamentary Government was on its trial at present, and never
till the present session, in the opinion of foreign countries,
had it shown itself so incompetent fer the discharge of its
functions. People elsewhere thought that only one mode
of free Government was tolerable, and it was one which we
deemed intolerable—viz., universal suffrage. Universal
suffrage meant government by the mob, armed and unarmed,
and a dictator presiding over that multitude. That was
the form which was supposed elsewhere to be the perfection
of free government, and which was set up in contrast to
parliamentary government. His belief was that our Parlia-
-1 mentary Government, with all its faults, was infinitely pre-
ferable to anything of that description, as it was not free,
but despotic, whereas ours was free and capable of improve-
ment. (Hear, hear.) He believed that either by standing
orders of both houses, or by act of Parliament, or by some
other measure resultingfrom the action of a joint committee,
the greater part of the mischief could be greatly mitigated,
if not wholly remedied. The motion on Fridays in the
other house, that upon its rising it adjourn to Monday, gave
rise to endless debates, to the exclusion of every other sub-
ject, and to the postponement and defeat of most important
meesures. It was a most mischievous practice, which had
been introduced only in recent times, and could be remedied
at once by a standing order. He would not enter further
into the proceedings of the other house, for which he en-
tertained the greatest possible respect, and for that par-
ticular proceeding he entertained all the respect which was
possible. (Laughter.) Ho believed that much might be
done without any Act of Parliament, by orders and resolu-
tions of the two houses, backed by that without which all
orders and resolutions would prove of no avail—viz., a firm
determination on the part of the leaders in Parliament to
carry the resolutions which had been formed into effect.
(Hear, hear.)
Lord REDESDALE agreed with the noble earl the Pre-
sident of the Council that they should be v
altering their proceedings, as they had beenerYcautious
found
in
upon the
whole to work well. The question could not be fairly judged
by particular instances. His noble friend had instanced
e-
the very strong case of the Bankruptcyßill, which Was
of
enormous length, but involved no party feeling. But let
them take, on the other hand, the Reform Bill. It was
necessary for the promoters of it to persevere to a certain
degree, on account of its importance, havingce, although, not
been framed with sufficient consideration, it did not meet
Kith approbation, but was withdrawn from the general eon-