The Sun.
London, England, 1856-04-01 00:00:00

Mr. CRA.W FORD, in reference to the increase proposed
ba made in the (Alice wished to know whether any

comudision hal been appoint to inquire into the matter,
and whether any report would b.J laid upon the table of

;he 190u5,?

Mr. WILSON. said that, from his experience in the
Treasury, he ‘fas ena4led to say that no office was better

conducted than that under review.

Mr. WILLIAMS called attention to the expenses of the
Queen's plates, and expressed an opinion that the house
should not be called upon to pay for these adjuncts to

horse-racing. .
Mr. WISE sail that there was no charge upon the civil
estimates for such things in this country, whale they were
paid out of the Queen's p+iy Lte purse. Ho did not under-
Wand why the same principle should not be applied to

. .
Ireland or Scotland.
The vote was agreel to.
Oa the vote of ,431./. for officers attending the housn-
ho d of the Lord-Lieutenant of Leland,
Mr. WITJUIAMS said he could not conceive what was
the use of these otliers. The Lord-Lieutenant was a pri-

vate gentleman, and it very seldom occurred that ho was a
military man. He found that two of the persons charged
fur were termed " gentlemen at lar2;e," who recei,ed
2571. 17e. 4d. He shout t like to know what were their

duties. (Hoar, hear.) Then there was the master of the
horse ; could anything ho mole farcical ? I'o maintain the
dignity of royalty in this c-umtry was necessary, but to
adopt the same sy-tem in reference to the mock royalty in
Ireland was in the lithes!. degree ahuird. Then there was
a Court Herald. His salary was certainly small, for be
I,c,ivel less every year than his clothing amounted to.
(A laugh.)
Mr. BLACKBURN thought it was useless to discuss
.such details. The office ought to be abolished altogether.
The vote was agreed to.
On the vote of 15,161/. for the Secretary of State's offices
iu Dublin and London, _ _

Mr. WILLIAMS wished to know why the salary of the
Lord-Lieutenant was not included in the estimateA ? In
former years it was so; and he saw no reason why it should
now be omitted. The salary of the Lord-Lieutenant used
to be 7,0001. a year, bnt, now it was reduced to 4,00J1.
Mr. WILSON- said it was not so.

Mr. WILLIAMS assured the hon. gentleman that if ho
went back 15 or 16 years he world find that he was per-
fectly accurate in his statement.
The following votes were agreed to with scarcely any
di,cussion :
6,2911. for the office of the paymaster of the Civil Ser-
vice in Ireland.

2,5551 for the inspectors of lunatic asylums in Ireland.
22,516/. for the inspectors of the Board of Public Waiks
in Ireland.
Ott the vote of 30,M1.1. for the office of the Commissioner
of Public Works in Ireland,
Mr. BOWYER said he wished to ask a question of very
considerable importance. It would be remembered that
when the right hon. gentleman the member for Bucking-
hamshire (Mr. Disraeli) held office as Chancellor of the
Exchequer, he sail, on bringing forward his budget, that
Geveruineut would take into consideration a general re-
form of public accounts. Son after that the Government
with which the right hon. gentleman was connected re-
signed office, and the house had heard no more of that im-
portant subject. The house would remember that so far
back as 1831. this,subject of public accounts was taken into
consideration by the Government. It had been cbusideted
long before that time, but in 1831 it was fully gone into
by commissioners, of whom Dr. Bowring was at the head.
The commissioners recommended many important mea-
sures, the chief of which was a perfect uniformity iu the
method of keeping the public accounts, and the introduc-
tion of the commercial system of double entry. With re-
' gard to the audit-office, he believed that there had been
uo return of business since t 817, when it was two years
in arre r. The great evil that prevailed in the audit-
office was clearly pointed out by the commissioners. It
was thus that the accounts were brought into the
audit in the form of the office where they were
made up, and afterwards they had to be put into the form
required by the Exchequer, a coarse which it sometimes
t tole a couple of months to accomplish. Compulsory powers
should be given to the audit-office to secure uniformity of
system, and then the. grave delays now complained of
would be avoided. He should like to know whether the
Government had any intention of following out the impel--
tent promise in..de by the right hon. gentleman the member
for Buckingheinshire when he held office?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, said the
subject had recently engaged his attention, aud if it should
be in his power he should lay the result, before the house
at an early period.
Mr. MA CA RTNEY had heard that some of the clerks
had been,trensferred from the audit to the War-office, and
a report was in circulation that the war accjuuts were to
be audited by the War Department.
Mr. WILSON said it was true that clerks had been trans-
ferred as stated, and that the War-office would audit its
awn accounts. There was a Treasury minute to that effect.
Mr. MACAR rN EY intimated that to-morrow he should
move that it be laid upon the table of the house.
Mr. WILSON woulti Eleven° objection to its production.
Mr. WILLIAMS thought. the course which had been
pursued is reference to this matter was not commendable.
He was strongly of opinion that the war accounts should
go to the audite,ffice, and ho hoped that whatever the opi-
nion of the Treasury might be, the house would never
sanction an opposite principle. If there was any security
at a':•1 in reference to the disposal of the national funds, it
was clearly tie ouch the auditenee. The house lead passed
the War-office vote, which he would have opposed if he
had known of the fact which had just been elicited, and
which certainly took him very much by surprise. It was
't most improper thing to allow any public department to
;audit its own accounts. He truetod that the conernissi ners'
salaries would be from time to time subjected to the revi-
on of that house.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER explained
that the expenses in question were chiefly incurred in the
colonies. The aoditors were altogether independent of the
Offices audited. There had been a transfer of audit from
the Audit-office to the War-office, by a Treasury minute,
which he would lay on the to If the office which made
the expenditure likewise audited the account, the system
would ue liable to great abuse. It had been understood
that the Commissioners of Audit should hold their offices
on the same tenure as the judges—not subject to aunusl
votes of Parliament. This was an arrataseineet of long
standing, and not introduced by any aristocratic principle
or patronage.
Mr. HENLEY could not see any fair reason why the
businessef audit should be taken from the proper tribunal
and transferred to a body which, in fact, constituted no
tribunal at all, handing it, in feet, to the very patsies who
might have been guilty of mismanagement. He trusted
the Treasury miuute «o ill met all right.
Mr. WILLIAM'a hoped that the army expenditure
would be audited by the Autlit-cace, anal nowhere else,
awl wished to have an exact. iutimatien to that effect.
Lord PALMERSTON said that the transfer of the audit
had evi.lently been inisuuderstowl. It was not the general
astny expenditure which was transferred to the War-office,
but the regimented expense. These accounts were ren-
dered to the paymaster for audit. They comprised large
sums, involving a multitude of details, which made it hit-
possible for their accounts to be audited by the Audit-
office. The officers there did not understand their details,
and were quite incompetent to such a, duty. The principle
oe which their accounts were made out was not a new rue.
They were not the general accounts of the War Depart-
ment, bat accounts of the manner in which money was ex-
pended which had been issued for regimental services.
The form of audit in the Audit-office was of a different
kiwi, and Lot applicable to these expenses.
Mr. TIENLEY wished to know what was the exact ac-
counts withdrawn from the Audit office, and how it was
that the Audit-office attempted these duties heretofore?
Lord PALMERSTON explained that his observation
only applied to what had been said in respect of having all
the army accounts audited by the Audit-office. The great
bulk of the regimental accounts would continue to be
audited as they had been hitherto audited—at the War-
office.
Colonel DUNNE wiehel to know if the contracts and
other expen-es, such as those of the Land Transport Corps,
wore to be submitted to a board under the control of the
Minister of War, or to the Audit-office, under the control
of Parliament ? As to the regiment al expenses, there was
no doubt about them ; but he wished to know what w..s
the practice with regard to the general army expenditure,
in which there had been so much waste?
Mr. WILSON said that the effect of the clause was that
the finial audit was still to remain at the audit board, but
the details were to be examined at the• War-offices
Mr. HENLEY wished to know distinctly if the accounts
were alt to go before the audit board or not? Nearly one-
fourth of the staff of the Audit-office was now taken away,
just at the time when a strict audit was west wanted, and
thus the Audit-office wculd be rendered unable to do its
business. He thought that the house was entitled to further
explanation, and that the vote should be postponed, as it
was us:certain how the change would work.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the arrangement was intended nut to make the audit less,
but more efficient. The clerks were transferred to the
War Departmeet that they might examine the accounts in
comer:lien with the elerks of that department. When the
eetemiesariat was transferred to the War-office, it was
thought advisable that its expenses should likewise be in-
curred at that Office. He was confident that the spirit of
change was not to hu°h up any extravagance, but to make
the audit us efficient as possible. He saw no good reason
for postponing the vote.
Mr. DISRA ELI said that when the Chancellor of the
Exchequer himself admitted that he could not explain the
vote, he really thought there was good reason for post-
p mine it. He himself (Mr. Disraeli) had once had occa-
shm to examine the audit system, anti he had thea thought
thas one great fault was that the audit was too limited,
and that a change was necessary in the whole audit system.
To be efficient, audits should be complete and indepeudent ;
and the fault of the present audit was that it was neither
complete nor independent. He could not approve of any
vote diet tended to diminish the functions of the audits,
and where there was a probability of such a diminution he
really thought that the vote might be pestponed.till it was
further examined, lest they should arrive at a conclusion
which the 'Government itself would regret. The Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer has i Heil that persons whose authority
was of weight, had declared that the arrangement u.av pro-
posed would, in their opinion. be conducive to the public
service. Now he (Mr. Disraeli) aid not approve of refer-
ring to anonymous authorities; but, as the Chancellor of the
Exchequer hail done so, he would refer himself to one, at
least, of equal importance. He remembered a good and
most efficient public servant, who had declared that he did
nut care whether the Commissariat was transferred to the
War-office or not ; but ho hoped that the audit of the
commissariat would never be transferred. The position in
which they found themselves was this - that they now con-
fined the audit system just as there Was a large increase f
expenditure; and thus, under present circumstances; the
audit would always be unequal to the occasion. The.audits
should always be complete anti itelependent; but they had
never been complete, and scarcely over been indepeudeht.
He trusted that the right hon. gentleman would re-coesi.
der his opinion,' and consent to the
,postponement of the
vote.

Mr. WILSON consented to the postponement of the
vote.

Mr..,WILLIAMS said that- he had asked a question
which bad been answered by tho noble lard by tt reference
to
the regimental system. They all knew that the regi-
mental accounts must be audited in a distinct manner ;
but the general accounts of the army stood in a different
position. There was a paymaster for the navy, and the
army accounts should be treated in the same way.
Tile vote was then withdrawn.
On the v. 46 for 17,710/. for the copybold, enclosure, and
tithe commission •
Mr. WILLIAMS wished to know when the commission
would. expire ? It was 61113 that it was wound np, and
there could at least be no occasion for three commissioners.
They were doing private business with public money.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCLIEQUER said that
the enclosure commission was instituted to save the ex,
psnse of Parliamentary proceedings- in the inelosare
waste lands. The copytiold comwis.sion was in the same
'way. extended to facilitate the enfranchisement of copy.
koldo, Those two 0012111i1,0191111 wore in their iukturt per,