The Sun.
London, England, 1856-02-16 00:00:00

THE CLOCK TOWER.

The Earl of EGLINTON called the :attention of the
noble earl opposite to the state of the Clock Tower. He
presumed the object of erecting this tower was to let
people know the time of day ; but judging from the
peculiar dial put up on one side, he did not think that
object would be attained by affixing similar hieroglyphics
on the other three sides.

Earl GRANVILLE said that having received notice
from the noble lord of his intention to ask the question,
ho had communicated with Sir C. Barry. That gentle.
man had written to him, stating that he was quite sensi-
ble of the defects of the dial plate already fixed. Those
defects would be remedied w;th the shortest possible
delay. In a very short time the clock would be set up,
a means having been contrived to fix it from the inte-
rior, instead of the exterior, of the Tower.
Lord DUNGA.NNON gave notice of his intention to
move on Monday for certain returns in reference t) per-
sons qualified to act as justices of the peace, the number
of petty sessions held throughout the year in England
and Wales, and other matters connected with the duties
of the magistracy.
MINISTRY OF JUSTICE.

Lord BROUGHAM gave notice that oa that day
week he should bring before their lordships an impor-
tant subject, and propose resolutions for the purpose of
carrying out the object in view. His object was to
bring this country within the pale of European judicial
civilisation by the appointment of a Minister of Justice.
THE BURIAL GROUND AT CARLISLE.

Lord BROUGHAM presented a petition from bar-
lisle, stating that the old burial ground had been c'osed,
that a new graveyard of 35 acres had been provided, but
that the late bishop felt that it was not his duty to con-
secrate any part of the ground unless the portion in-
tended for consecration was separated from the rest of
the cemetery by a wall.
The Bishop of EXETER said it would be difficult to
relieve a clergyman from the consequence of acting con-
trary to the laws of the Church. If the bishop declined
to consecrate the burial ground, the aggrieved party
might go to the Queen's Bench for a mandamus to compel
the burial board, to put the ground into such a state that
the bishop could lawfully consecrate it.
Earl GRANVILLE said Government bad declined
to override the ecclesiastical law and the jurisdiction of
the bishop. He thought, however, that the next bishop
would take a wider view of the subject.
EDUCATION BILL.

Earl GRANVILLE moved the second reading of a
bill for appointing a Vice President of Committee of
Council on Education, and said that he might be per-
mitted to mention that this bill was the result of sug-
gestions, in another place, of the right hon. baror e', Sir
J. Pakington, and of his noble friend Lord J. Russell.
The suggestions were, considering that so great a por-
tion of the public money was spent on education, a mi-
nister should be appointed who should be responsible for
the expenditure of all moneys in his department. The
bill would provide for an educational department of the
Privy Council, which would be represented in the other
house by a vice-president, whoever that might be, in a
manner as similar as possible to the Board of Trade.
The bill would create certain officers, amongst others,
inspectors and superintendents, and it would provide for
the expenses of those officers.

The. Earl of DERBY said that, considering the very
large interest which the subject of education was excit-
ing, he thought the time had arrived when the change
proposed by the noble earl ought to take place, the only
question being as to tile' liest—mode of providing for that
change. If they were prepared to charge a responsible
Minister with the duties of education, he questioned whe-
ther the time bad not arrived for the removing the Coun-
cil of Education altogether, and making the Minister
really responsible. He was not sure whether the duties
of the President of the Council had not better be trans-
ferred to some ether Minister of Government, and he
thought the duties would not be beyond the functions of
a Minister in another department of the State. He
doubted whether the duties devolved upon the President
of Council had not better be discharged by the Prime
Minister. He did not express a posiqve judgment on the
question, hut he had a strong opinion that the institution
of a Minister of Public Instruction, separated from the
Privy Council, might be attached to the office of the
First Lord of the Treasury, who might in his turn be
relieved from some of his duties by other Ministers.
But this was opening up a large question, and be did
not wish then to offer any opposition to the bill, under-
standing the object of the bill ta be that the'office of
education should be a substantial office, presided over by
a responsible Minister, which he thought would be an
arrangement far superior to the present, inasmuch as he
considered a single responsible Minister more useful than
a board of commissioners, however ef&cient or responsi-
ble the members of tbat board might be. Other changes
in the measure it was in the power of the Crown to make
by an Order in Council ; and he thought it was hardly
rigbt.tliat the house should offer any opposition to the
measure, considering the character and nature of the al-
terations proposed.

Lord MONTEAGLE thought that the present Board
of Trade worked well, as represented by the present head
of the board; but whether he took the constitution of the
Board of Trade or of the Board of Control, or of any
other board, he found that they were either wholly irre-
sponsible, or else only partially responsible. He asked
those noble lords who bad been on the Board of Trade
whether the annexation f other members of the Govern-
ment to the board was likely to be of any important ad-
vantage ? As the same difficulties had arisen upon the
question of education, as vested in the hands of the
committee, though it was composed of very wise and
very eminent persons, he greatly rejoiced that in this
instance they were approaching a better state of things.
He remembered that it was not a few years ago when,
at the close of Lord Grey's Government, the first step
was taken to promote public education, by the vote of a
sum of 30,000/.--a sum totally inadequate to touch the
question ; and when
,he viewed the progress which edu-
cation had made, it was impossible not to see that the
time bad come when they ought to make the responsi-
bilities more direct and connected with Parliament,
particularly when the head of the department
had ample opportunity of giving explanations, of re-
moving objections, and of communicating with Par-
liament. Another reason which made him rejoice in
the bill was, that he concluded it was a bill to connect
with the new department other departments which were
then in a state of rapid growth. He alluded to a class
of institutions which from day to day were assuming a
magnitude greater than any person living could have
anticipated. He meant the departments for the en-
couragement cf science and art. He was very far from
discouraging these great object, but he thought that
they should be pursued with discretion, and treated as
an experiment, which must have growth in order to be
successful. The estimates of 'expense for these objects
had been laid before their lordohipe, and when the sub-
ject was brought before them, he knew their lord-
ships had expressed their astonishment at the large
sums which had been lavished upon the depart.
meats of science and art at a time when a miser-
able dispute was going on about a grant of 1,000
a-year to the Royal Society. Those were all the
subjects connected with the present bill to which he was
anxious to direct their lordships' attention ; but the
system of Irish education differed materially from that of
education in England. He understood the bill not to
touch the question of Irish education at all. He read it
merely as a new organisation of council upon education
here, sal as not containing a word as to the general
principle of education in Ireland. If they got two able
men whose hearts were really in the subject, they would
discharge the duties of the General Board of Education
in Great Britain infinitely better than by constituting an
unpaid board, consisting of many persons engaged in
other important and laborious occupations. (Hear.)
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH said his opinion
was, that if they wished to have a department well con-
ducted and efficient, instead of having two able men at
its head, it would be better to have only one able man
at its head. (Hear.) He had thought that the measure
of the noble earl (Eerl Granville) would have delegated
the duties of the Board of Education to one person who
was to represent the board in the House of Commons.
Ho (the Earl of Eilenborougb) thought it was desirable
to separate the department of education from the politi•
cal changes which affected the Government. He
should, therefore, watch, witheanxiety the appointment
of the officer to be entrusted to represent the board
in the House of Commons. The person to be appointed
should not be a man of extreme opinions either in po-
litic., religion, or even with respect to education itself.
If a person of extreme opinions were appointed he would
not receive the co-operation of the landed gentry and
clergy. There were many men so enthusiastic en the
subject of education that for the object of having a lite-
rary peasantry they would sacrifice the useful labour of
the country. He had seen a good deal of the working of
these schools, and he said it was absolutely necessary
that the sons of the peasantry should earn wages at as
early a period as possible to enable them to assist their
parents. If they said that 2or 3 years more should be
taken from the useful labour of the sons to give them a
little more knowledge, they would inflict the greatest in-
jury on the labouring classes. They would force the
family into the workhouse, and it was there that the
sons would obtain their education. He felt satisfied that
continuous labour was of infinitely more value to the
poor man than that he should have a day's labour and
half a day's literary amusement, which made him fit for
neither one purpose nor the other. (Hear.)
Earl GREY said that the concluding observations of
the noble earl were, in his opinion, of the highest im-
portance. He (Earl Grey) could not nelp thinking that
it had been a great fault on the part of the existing de-
partment of education that it had required too high a
standard for schoolmasters and schoolmistresses. Many
of these persons had no knowledge of the useful arts.
With regard to schoolmistresses the matter was of the
utmost importance. The happiness and comfort of a
poor man's family depended materially on the handiness
of his wife ; but the schoolmistress who could give a
complete history of all the Popes from the earliest pe-
riod was often ignorant of those arts which were most
useful in the poor man's home. He thought that there
would be no inconvenience in having a board to be con-
sulted so long as the subordinate members deferred to
the opinion of the responsible chief. The noble earl said
that, if the plan were to be efficient, the office of chief
of
the board ought to be separated from the Presidencythat of
the Council. Considering how necessary it was
there should be in each house one person fully acquainted
to
with all the gerrerral business of the Governtutoen
answer questions, he believed that both h se persons
should be exempted from the labours of a heavy depart-
ment. He thought also that it would be convenient if
the First Lori of the Treasury and the Lord President
were always in different 119use6, -tl* arrangemea

,

were adopted he thought the Lord President ought to
be placed upon the same salary as the Secretaries of
State. If the Lord President were required to be the
leader of one house, he could nut vivo up his whole
time to the business of education. He hoped that this
question of separation of duties would be considered.
Toe time had now arrived when they ought to consider
the mhole state of our Parliamentary &flees. Several
new offices had been brought into Parliament—the
head of the Poor•law Board, the pracident of the Board
of Trade ; but he could not understand why they
should crate new offices, and at the same time retain
the office of Chancellor of the Ductiy of Lancaster, to
which no duties were attached. The subject of the dis-
tribution of Parliamentary offices he trusted would he
investigated either by means of a commission or of a
select committee. (Hear, hear.)
Lord BROUGHAM expressed his satisfaction at the
prospect of having a real educational department esta-
blished in this country. He therefore need not say tbat
he should support the measure of his noble friend.

The Marquis of LA.NSDOWNE was glad to find,
notwithstanding the various subjects which had been
broached, that the measure met with a very general
concurrence on the part of their lordships. He did not
agree with the noble earl opposite (the Earl of Ellen-
borough) that greater advantages would result from
not allowing the office- of the Minister of Education
to remain in connection with the Government. He
was of opinion that any general system of educa-
tion which was adopted should be carried on in the
closest alliance with the Government of the day,
for questions would be perpetually starting up with re,
gard to it, and if the two were separated, and the Minis-
ter and the Government took opposite views, differences
might arise which would retard the progress of the very
cause which they were all anxious to promote. Some
observations had also been made by the noble earl con-
meta with the bearings of this system of education upon
the labouring classes. He (the Marquis of Lansdowne)
entirely concurred in the necessity of the sons of the
working classes being employed at a very early age, but
it was very difficult to lay down a general rule on this
subject. There were many counties and parts of counties,
in England, where an improved system of Education,
compatible with the ordinary pursuits of labour,
existed, was found to work well, and he should be
exceedingly sorry to make any attempt to fix the age
at which education should terminate and labour com-
mence. That was a question which ought to be
settled between the promoters of education and the
independent poor. The independence of the bulk
ought always to be considered, and they should
be deemed the best judges of their own actions, and be
allowed to have the entire control of their own families.
What had been said as to placing the standard of educa-
tion higher than was necessary was perfectly true, espe-
cially as regarded schools for females. When he bad the
honour of being placed at the head of the department, he
made a great effort to introduce reforms, and he believed
it would be admitted, on examination, that the system
had now been greatly improved. Useful and practical
knowledge bad in a great degree been introduced into
the education which was given, and brought to bear on
the cae eof schoolmistresses. From one very important
branch of education, which was too much overlooked,
great advantages had been derived—viz., cookery.
This was even more useful than reading, writing, and
arithmetic, to females among the labouring classes ; and
connecting itself, as it did, with cleanliness and other
commendable habits, he thought it ought to be strictly
inculcated and enforced. (Hear, hear.)
L and COLCHESTER inquired whether it was in-
tended to transfer the department of nautical science
from the Board of Trade to the Admiralty'
Earl GRANVILLE replied in the affirmative. With
regard to the question of the noble lord (Lord Mont-
eagle), he had to state that the present bill would in no
way interfere with the national system of education in
Ireland ; every noble lord had spoken in favour of unity
of direction in the educational department, as if he had
expressed a different opinion, whereas he never intended
to convey any other impressions than that the President
of the Council was to be responsible himself for the con-
duct of that department. An objection was raised as to
the President of the Council being also the Minister of
Instruction, bus he confessed be did not see the same
practical inconvenience in one person holding those two
offices which there was believed to be by seine noblelords.
The ordinary business of the Privy Council did notoccupy
much of his time, and he did not'thiuk there could be any
objection to his taking the management of the other
department, supposing lie was a fit and proper person.
Tee proposal to transfer the Privy Council to the Prime
Minister was one embracing questions of patronage—
the advising the Queen as to appointments--and he
owned he could not see the practical convenience which
would result from it. The noble marquis who had just
spoken had pointed out the expediency of the Minister
of Instruction changing with the Government, instead
of being a permanent Minister. The noble earl (the Earl
of El'enboi woe)) said there would he great danger of
getting a man who held extreme opinions, bat that was
just as likely to happen with a permanent head of the
department. If the department was not represented in
Parliament, the same inconveniences would arise which
were Lit in the case of the old Poor-law B3ard ; and if
they had a representative in Parliament, it was impee-
Bible to make him a permanent head of the board
while successive changes of the Government were
taking place. A noble lord had made some reflec-
tions upon the Department of Science and Art. It
was inconvenient to go into that qu tetion now,
but he would be quite prepared, in two or three
weeks hence, to enter fully into it, and to show what
that department had done, and to what uses it
might in the future ha applied. Ile did not agree with
the noble earl (the Earl of Ellenborough), who seemed
to think that the tendency was to over-educate, and
who was rather inclined to disparage the education of
the poorer classes.
The bill was than read a second time.
The House of Commons Offices Bill, and the Metro-
politan Police Bill, were read a second time.