The Sun.
London, England, 1860-07-14 00:00:00

SUPPLY-WAR WITH CHINA.

The house went into committee of supply.
Upon the vote of £148,896, on account of the advances
made by the Indian Government for the expedition to

China,

Lord J. MANNERS asked when it had been intimated
thatthat sum was due to the Indian Government, and that
they would expect payment during the present financial
year.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
apparent anomalies in the accounts were owing to the mode
in which those accounts had been kept, but there would
never be that confusion again he hoped, The payments to
the Indian Government were allowances in an open account.
The British Government had large claims against the In-
dian Government for the expenses of the Indian war. He
would make inquiry, and endeavour to give the necessary
information promptly.
•
Mr. BRIGHT asked what was the amount of force we
had in China. Some time ago he had been informed that
it was 10,000, but subsequently he had been told that it
was to be 20,000 men. He believed that for any purpose of
the English Government, however unjust, 10,000 men was
quite sufficient, and he should be glad to hear who ordered
the additional number.

Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said the observations made by
the hon. member for Birmingham led him to the conclusion
that bills would be run up, which that house would as usual
have to pay. He understood there was no account with the
Indian Government till '49, and that was 11 years ago.
There was already an account running up with the Indian
Government cf two millions for the present war, and as
sensible men they ought to require a balance-sheet to be
laid on the table beforo they agreed to the present war.
Mr. ROEBUCK said the hon. baronet (Sir. H. Wil-
loughby) wanted to have a balance-sheet. Now, lie
(Mr. Roebuck) wanted to know what advantage Govern-
ment intended to confer upon the country by such an
expenditure of blood and treasure as would be made in
this war. He remembered on the occasion of the former
war, hearing the present Chancellor of the Exchequer make
a most able speech denouncing that unjust war, but the right
hon. gentleman had changed his position, and hence he had
changed his opinions—(hear, hear, from the Opposition)—
and he now came forward to justify a course which he had
formerly denounced. (Renewed cheers from the Opposi-
tion.) The speech of the right hon. gentleman to which he
had alluded was still ringing in his ears, and little did he
think at the time that he should now find him one of the
most eloquent advocates of the present war. On the former
occasion the right hon. gentleman did not cover up his
meaning with a multitude of words. No ; he was then plain
—was succinct, and very effective. (Hear, hear.) That
speech,told upon the country, and he (Mr. Roebuck) had
only to go to the quiver of the right hon. gentleman to find
an arrow fitted• for the present occasion. The hon. and
learned gentleman concluded by denouncing the vast
amount of immorality which was involved in the present
war.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he felt
no difficulty whatever. (Derisive cheers and laughter.)
He repeated, he felt no difficulty in replying to the hon.
and learned gentleman, who had asked him how he could
denounce the former war, and yet be the advocati of the
present war. His answer was that the present war was
entirely different from the last war. Now, it might be,
that the war in 1857 was right, and that the war in 1860
was wrong. It might be that the war in 1860 was right,
and the war in 1857 was wrong; or it might be that they
were both wrong. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) That was
but the choice of alternatives. As to the present war, he
had never spoken of it but with regret and lamentation.
The present Government had only undertaken it from, a
sense of public duty. The policy of the Government with
respect to the war had not been challenged in that house.
The house had generally acquiesced in the war. It was
for the interests of the country to send • a considerable
force to China, but at the same time it was made the
bearer of terms as moderate as possible under the circum •
stances. He did not attempt to gloss the evil, or to
hide the cost of it. The hon. member for Portsmouth wished
to know what were the monthly disbursements of the war;
but that it was impossible to tell. Any correct account of
the expenses of a war in China, with its base in India, was
impossible. The whole matter was full of uncertainty. The
amount of drafts on the home chest might be given, but
but that would be but a most imperfect estimate. Various
considerable items of the last war remained unadjusted, but
he did not think that any large sums remained to be ac- '
counted for.'

Lord J. MANNERS wished to know the real objects of
the war. The right hon. gentleman assumed that the house
had sanctioned the war. He demurred to that statement.
The war was commenced not only without the knowledge of
Parliament, but before they assembled, and that was really
the first opportunity of testing the opinion of the house on
the conduct of the',war, and the only mode was by bringing
i”fore them a gigantic bill, whicl had been already Incur-

red, and could not be resisted. Up to that moment the gene-
ral feeding of the house was to express no sympathy with
the war, with a wish that it might be closed with the ut-
most speed. He could not resist the vote, but he hoped the

war might be brought to a speedy termination.
Lord-J. RUSSELL—Sir, we have heard again and again
members of the late Government inquiring- as to the object
and origin of this war. Surely if any members of this house
ought to be informed on that subject it should be the mom-

bers of that Government, who sent out the Minister to China

—who appointed the admiral, and who, through the Admi-
ralty, directed that that Minister should be accompanied with

" efficient," as one Minister said, with an r' imposing'
force sto said another. (Hear, hear.) We were astonished,

and at the s. me time grieved by the reception of the news
from the Peiho ; but these events were not of our prepara-
tion. (Hear, hear.) We had not appointed the Minister ;
we had not given him his instructions—(hear)—yet the
noble lord and the late First Lord of the Admiralty held

us responsible for these calamit;es. (Hear, hear.) The I
noble lord seems to think that we were not afflicted with
theintelligence which we received from the Peiho. (Hear.)
But why aro we supposed to be less afflicted than any other
members of this house, or than any other pei sons in this
country, at the expenditure of life and treasure to which
the renewal of the war will lead ? (Hear, hear.) We
grieve deeply at the renewal of the war—(cheers)—but it
behoved us, as Ministers of this country, to consider whai
we ought to do. We could not take the course pursued by
the Americans. They did not send an imposing force to

the Peiho, and they did not meet with such a calamity as
we did. (Hear, hear.) I shall not inquire whether their's
was a dignified course or not, but the time was passed
when we could have adopted it. (Hear, hear.) We were
bound to ask reparation, and to demand terms of peace for
this country by which the lives and rreperties of British

traders and ether British subjects in China might be pro-
tected. (Hear, hear.) It is our duty to protect British
subj ects there—we were bound to do it, and we will do it.
(Cheers.) I am told that this war will cost much treasure
and lead to loss of life. I regret the loss of treasure and I
regret the loss of life. But we must protect British subjects ;
we stated our policy at the commencement of the session,
and then was the time, if the noble lord disapproved of it,
to have said so, and to have taken the sense of the house on
the subject. (Cheers.) The noble lord or any one else
might have moved an address to the Crown, praying that
no military or naval force might be sent, but that we should
rest Content with the disaster at the Peiho, and take no
steps to resent it—(hear)—that we should continue without
the treaty of Tien-tsin, without any other than the usual
relations of peace, and that we should not prosecute any-
thing like hostile preparations. (Hear.) That was in the
power of the noble lord, and if he entertained his present
opinions then, why did he not take that course ? (Hear.)
But I am told that, for the sake Of morality, we ought not
to go to war with China ; but it is an odd way of teach-
ing us morality to sign a treaty with us, and when our
Minister comes to ratify that treaty, to give hint no notice
that he could not be received by the usual route to enter
into friendly negotiations—to say nothing of a force placed
to interrupt him, to accept his announcement that he means
to take a certain route, the common and usual highway to
the capital, and then to place on that road an army and can-
nons prepared with the exact range in order treacherously
to destroy him and the force which accompanied him. (Ap-
plause, cries of hear, hear, and no, no.) This is the way
in which the Chinese have endeavoured to teach us mora-
lity. (No, no, and cries of hear, hear.) I know not that,
by submitting to that course, we should gain anything on
the side of morality. (Hear, hear.) But lam certain that
the terms we proposed after the dreadful calamity were not
severe but moderate—terms which require, no doubt, a dis-
avowal and an apology for the proceedings which have been
taken ; but with regard to the future we propose to live in
amity with the Chinese nation on the terms of that treaty to
which the Emperor of China has already assented, and we
ask to have nothing added to it. (Hear.) It is absurd to
argue that because we are opposed to one war we may not
be in favour of another arising from very different causes.
(Hear.) To enter into a new war with China is undoubtedly
a great calamity. I believe that the Chinese themselves
are not hostile to the English traders who resort to their
shores ; on the contrary, the relations of trade have con-
tinued from the day of the Peiho to the present time.
(Hear.) Our orders have been as much as possible to confine
the war to those who were engaged in it, and not to extend
it to innocent persons who were pursuing their usual avo-
cations, and who were willing to enter with us into rela-
tions of amity. I believe those friendly relations will con-
tinue, and that it will be a itruggle merely between the Eng-
lish and French forces on the one hand, and the Chinese
forces on the other. I believe, also, that the war will be
one of short duration. (Hear, hear.) But I say again it is
our duty to protect the lives and property of British sub-
jects, which have:been endangered by the act of the Chinese
Government, which, in defiance of a solemn treaty, attacked
our soldiers and our sailors in a manner for which we are
bound to demand reparation; and we are bound also to
place our relations with that country in such a state that
the Emperor of China and his Ministers shall respect this
nation as ono which is at least equal to the Chinese in every
quality which becomes a nation. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. T. BARING said, as far as commerce was concerned,
no event could be more unfortunate than the present war.
(Hear, hear.) It was unfortunate for the interests of
trade that we should ever have insisted on going up to
Pekin. It was not by forcing an entrance to the Feiho, or
sending a Minister to Pekin, that trade would be advanced.
The noble lord said it was a question of morality—that he
wanted to teach the Chinese morality.
Lord J. RUSSELLlexplained—What I said was this—
that hon. gentlemen opposite said that, for the sake of mo-
rality, they ought not to make war; and he replied to that
observation; but he did not say they wished to teach mora-
lity to the Chinese.
Mr. BARING continued—What he objected to was,
that they acted towards China as they would with France,
or any other country in Europe, while it was well known
that the Chinese entertained views different from every one
else. His own belief was that, if they forced diplomacy on
them, they would have a great deal of difficulty before them,
and would never do much except to damage the country by
forcing it into a constant and perpetual warfare.
Sir C. NAPIER observed that the hon. and learned
member for Sheffield and the hon. member for Liskeard ob-
jected to the war, and he wished to know whether France
and England had the same objects in view. Ile (Sir C. Na-
pier) would ask why did not Lord Elgin stop there ?
Lord R. CECIL cast all the blame of these wars on
the officials who represented tha British Governs ent
abroad. The present war was occasioned by Mr. Bruce
~
the late war by Sir John Bowring, Mr. Murray brought
about the Persian war, and Lord Dalhousie the Burmese.
It was not the English Government, but those individuals
who brought these difficulties on the country. For his own
part he wished they .treated China as an European rower,
because if they did so they would not allow officials to act
as they did.
Lord PALM ERSTON observed that the noble lord who
just sat down was inclined to think that the officials of dif-
ferent administrations abroad neglected their duty by drag-
ging this country into war. Now, he would venture to say
that any one who looked into the circumstances would find
they did their duty, no matter what hon. gentlemen said to
the contrary. The hon. gentleman the member fcr Hunt-
ingdon misunderstood what was said by his noble friend.
Tho hon. gentleman said that the British Minister wanted
to go to Pekin to advance trade, and that it was only at
Shanghai and Canton trade could be found. The hon.
gentleman also said that trade was all they wanted, and
they should therefore not insist on having a Minister at
Pekin. But could trade be secure, or commerce carried on,
if 'English subjects were not sustained and protected in
those right acquired by treaty ? If they sent persons into
foreign countries without having their safety secured pre-
viously by treaty, their lives and properties would not be
safe for a single moment. The hon. gentleman was too
well aware that his arguments were entirely inconsistent
with notorious facts. Did not the hon. gentleman remem-
ber with what acclamation the treaty made by Sir Henry
Pottinger was hailed in this country, and was it not noto-
rious that the benefits since derived from it fully justified
the policy then pursued ? Then as to the war at Canton,
though\ some hon. members did not approve of it, the
country thought differently, and most assuredly Sir
John Bowring had nothing to do with that transaction.
He thought the observations made upon him were unjust
and injurious, for he had no more to do with bringing
about the war than hon. gentlemen themselves. Then,
with regard to the recant occurrence, the late Government
authorised the treaty of Tien-tsin, and sent out instruc-
tions that the Minister should demand its ratification with
an efficient force. He might remind them that Lord Elgin
was not sent out to establish a trade for the merchants at
Pekin ; but it was at Pekin the ratifications of the treaty
were to be exchanged, and without that treaty the com-
mercial transactions at Canton, Shanghai, Ningpo, and
other places would be put in a state of jeopardy, in which
it was not the duty of the Government to place British
merchants and their enterprises. (Hear, hear.) The hon.
gentleman had said that the Government had dealt with
the Chinese according to the forms of diplomacy known in
Europe. He must know that of all the nations of the world
the Chinese were the people that attached the most value to
forms. (Hear, hear.) With them forms were matter of
substance and importance. (Hear, hear.) There was no
nation which attached more importance to the most minute
gradations of form, and with whom it was of greater
im-
portance to maintain our own dignity and assert our own
right by binding them with those formalities, the value of
which they knew almost better than any other nation.
(Hear, hear.) The object was to obtain. a ratification
of the treaty that would be binding on. the Emperor of
China. The Emperor of Chin% by an edict sanctioned
every article and word of that treaty. (Hear, hear.) But
b Emperor
whose
was concluded.
the Emperor of China knew as well as any one in
Europe, that the treaty was not ratified, and that it was
gthne
not binding uponAnthdethsoovuegrhei
of China had
acknowledged and sanctioned every word of that treaty he
endeavoured to hold himself free to break every article
which he by his own edict had sanctioned and approved.
hear.) That was a state of things •
(Hear, Which it was
impossible for the British Government to submit to, and
therefore it was necessary that a ratification should to
exchanged. They could only be exchanged at Pekin, and
it was not for the purpose of trade that the
going to Pekin, but to obtain, the tatificatio • Minister was
n. of the treaty, t

that was to give security to trade elsewhere, in other
parts of China where trade was carried on. (Hear, hear.)
He trusted they would, and at no distant period, obtain a
ratification of tho treaty from the Emperor of China. He
thought that instead of injuring his empire by establishing
friendly relations with the Great Powers of Europe, he
would rather add to the security of his authority. (Hear.)
The vote was then agreed to.

The CHAIRMAN was ordered to report progress, and the
house resumed.

WAYS AND MEANS-THE CHINA WAR AND

FORTIFICATIONS.

On the order being read for going into committee,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said—l
cannot think of asking the house to hear me in committee
of ways and means at this very, late hour, and therefore I
shall fix it the first thing on Monday, after the report is re-
ceived of the resolution just come to. (Hear, hear.) Ido
not think that the discussion on ways and means can last
for any length of time on Monday.
The order was accordingly postponed.
GAME CERTIFICATES ETtL.
_

The house went into committee on this bill, the several
clauses of which were agreed to, and after some discussion,
and the house having resumed, it was reported.
COMMON LAW PROCEDURE (IRELAND) ACT

(1853) AMENDMENT BILL.
Tbis bill passed 'through committee.
POOR. LAW BOARD CONTINUANCE BILL.
The house went into committee pro forma on this bill,
and tin Chairman was immediately ordered to report pro •
greys.