The Sun.
London, England, 1860-02-10 00:00:00

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ship at home. At the same time, inquiry would serve to
set things in a right light, and would place the civil service
upon a better footing for the future. By his next question
he asked whether it was not desirable to abolish the Legis-
lative Council at Calcutta and the Supreme Councils of
Bombay, Madras, and Bengal, and substitute for them a
Legislative Council for each Presidency. Those councils
had failed to produce any practical good, and sine° their
creation, by the tuft of 1853, no one had succeeded in ascer-
taining for what object they had been created, except it was
Ito draw large salaries. The necessity of his proposal had
been recognised by the evidence before the colonisation
committee. Mr. Waller said the Supreme Councils were
wholly useless, while the Legislative Council of Calcutta
possessed the confidence of milled:the Europeans nor the
natives. Several meetings had taken place at Bombay
and Calcutta to denounce the lamentable indifference of the
Legislative Council to matters of finance. No public con-
fidence could be placed in men who took especial care to
exempt themselves from the taxation which they were
anxious to extend to the rest of the community. Now
that India was annexed to her Majesty's dominions there
was no real occasion for two courts. The resolution would
also effect a considerable saving of expense besides the
union of the Supreme and Sudder Courts,. serving as a fine
example for the administration of justice in India. As re-
garded the fourth resolution, he thought it was of suffi-
cient importance to be submitted to a select committee. He
thought the power of raising loans on the revenue of India
ought' to be modified, and that all future India roans should
be subjected to the deduction of 1 per cent. for the.purpose
of creating a sinking fund. On the rat of May this year the
Indian debt would amount to 96 millions, and other loans
• ;:tldnot be avoided ; while the means of meeting the inte-
I Vaeten these loans was not adequately increased. He had no.
haieeltion of embarrassing Mr. Wilson by this motion, but
he was anxious that the house should aid him in establish-
ing a system of economy.
Sir C. WOOD said no advantage would be derived from
the appointment of a committee ; at the same time he ad-
mitted the questions brought forward were of the utmost im-
portance, and brought forward in a most temperate man-
ner. As regarded the first resolution, the return of 1854
would show that though the number of civil servants in a
yearhad incre-ased,the salaries had diminished one half
,; and
that those of £3,000 a year and upwards had been still more
diminished. In 1854 he (Sir C. Wood) had advised the re-
visal of salaries, and Mr. Ricketts was appointed to revise
them. His report proposed a considerable reduction in sala-
ries, and he (Sir C. Wood), having received the strongest
remonstrances on the subject, had appointed a commission
under the Indian Council to go through the subject again,
and to report upon it. They were now engaged on it, and
would soon make their report. At the same time,'consider-
ing the responsibility of the civil servants in India, he (Sir
C.. 'Wood) was bound to say that, as a body, he did not con-
sider them at all overpaid. Reductions might be made by
eimalising salaries and abolishing offices; but he did not
think that a sweeping reduction was at all desirable, con-
sistently with a due administration of public affairs: The
civil service was thrown open to competition, but there
was every probability that there wobld not be too many
candidates in the course of time; forif reference were made
to railroad salaries in India, it would be found that
they were much higher than those paid to civil ser-
vants, and moreover entailed less responsibility. Under
these circumstances, he (Sir C. Wood) did not
think the appointment of a select committee
would be of any advantage. As regarded the second reso-
lution, he (Sir C. Wood) would not say that some member
of the Supreme Council might not be dispensed with ; but
it would be unjust to state that these bodies were without
any duties. All the papers relating to the government of
India had to be considered by them ; and no doubt they did
their duty conscientiously, but at the same time it was ob-
vious that much delay was created. A great deal of the
business was, however, transacted by the secretaries of the
supreme Government, and the Supreme Councils of Bombay
and Madras were sometimes annoyed at being overruled by
inferior officers. He thought the duties of those councils,
in the greater number of cases. might be transferred to the
secretaries, and that the number of the members might, by
this means, be considerably reduced, no member of council
hereafter being of a rank above the rank of secretary in the
principal and minor presidencies. This would give reduced
expenses, less delay, and more efficiency in the transaction
of the public business. As regarded the Legislative Coun-
oils 'Proposed to be substituted for the Supreme Councils,
he (Sir Charles Wood), thought the proposer of the Supreme
Council of Bengal, was bound to say that he did not think
the substitution would be an advantage. The Legislative
Councils at present in India had not certainly succeeded in
conciliating public opinion in India. The difficulty of
creating a Legislative Council in India, however, was very
great—a difficulty arising chiefly from the inevitable .con-
struction of such bodies in that country. It was, in fact,
impossible to constitute in Calcutta a Representative Ceun-
cil which could act satisfactorily for the interests of all
India ; and he (Sir Charles Wood) believed that the civil
servants of the Crown in the provinces were better calcu-
lated to represent the interests of India than any body
which could be assembled in Culcutta as a Representative
Council. ' He was of opinion, therefore, that a Legislative
Council for India, to which should be admitted strangers
not servants of the Crown, would be of no use to that
country. There was no doubt .that the Licensing Bill
was unfavourably received by the English population
of Calcutta ; but it should be borne in mind that it
was a usual mode of raising revenue in India, and he
believed that a moderate licensing tax would be the
least objectionable and the most effective to meet the case of
the whole population of that country. It was not, however,
necessary that an uniform system of taxation should be ap-
plied to allparts of India, and despatches had been received
from Lord Canning, and the three questions under discus-
sion were now before committees. Much had been done to
give increased power l o the Central Government as regarded
the public debt. With respect to the amalgamation of the
Supreme and Sudder Courts, he agreed very much with his
hon. friend. He had arrived at that conclusion so long ago
as 1853, and in the following year the measure was ordered
to be carried into effect ; but somehow or another the Go.
vernment at Calcutta found difficulties in the way, and the
consequence was that in 1860 that which he thought would
have been done in 1854 yet remained unaccomplished. He
thought, however, that effectual progress had now been,
made towards that end, and he was glad to perceive that
the judges in Madras had reported that the union of the
two courts was both practicable and desirable. He quite
concurred with his hon. friend in thinking that that would
be a most valuable measure. The legal knowledge of the
English judges ,would be thus united to the local knowledge
of the Sudder judges, and the result would be a great im-
provement in the general practice and procedure of the
courts. It was hardly necessary to follow his hon. friend
through the question, which had been so often discussed, of
the guarantee for the Indian loan. It was sufficient, pro-
bably, to state that the loan had been very successful, that
the creiNt of India in this country stood very high. that he
hoped that reductions were at last being brought into prac-
tical operatiorr in India, and that when he made his finan-
cial statement fhis year it would prove of a more encourag-
ing character than /hat which he had last presented to the
house. For these reasons, and considering that the first
three subjects alluded to in the motion were already under
investigation, he did not see that any advantage would be
derived from the appointment of a select committee, and
he should therefore oppose the motion. (Rear, hear.)
Mr. BAILLIE did not' believe that any unprejudiced
person who had paid much attention to the subject under
discussion, could come to any Other opinion than that the
present state of the Indian administration was anything but
creditable to those who were responsible for it. Possessed of
one of the finest districts in the world, with a most indus-
trious and numerous population, we had, nevertheleg, a
Government which was practically in a state of insolvefity,
and which for many years past has been living from hand
to mouth, on the credit of its past reputation—a reputation
which would long ago have disappeared but for a belief that
the Government of this country must, sooner or later, take
upon itself the responsibility of the Indian debt. Nor was
this his opinion alone, for he was fully corroborated by Sir
H. Frere in his report upon the reorganisation of th 3
Indian army. Bad as was the financial state of India, the
condition of the people was even worse. Immense tracts of
fertile land 'had been thrown out of' cultivation, and we had
done nothing to reclaim those lands, or to remedy those
evils which we had done so much to create. It might be
said, perhaps, that this was the result of former admini-
strations, and that from the new Government of India dif-
ferent consequences would flow. But the new Government
of India was only new in name. There were the same men
in different offices performing the same duties as before;
and although he would not exactly say, of them that they
had learnt nothing and forgotten nothing, he could net
admit that they had effecterany great improvement in the
adniinistration of Indian affairs. He thought, however,
that the practice of sending despatches direct to the Secre-
tary of State, instead of through the Indian council, was an
improvement upon the old system. The Government had
discovered what they seemed to imagine would prove a golden
remedy for the unsatisfactory state of Indian finance, and
they had sent a gentleman of great ability over to India to
control that branch of the subject. But he thought that
a mistake had been committed 'in making Mr. Wilson a
member of the council. If he had been made a special
commissioner, with full power to deal with the finances of
India, he might have devoted the whole of his time and at- '
tentien to the object for which he had been sent there, and
some good might have resulted from his mission. Various
reasons had indeed been given for appointing Mr. Wilson a
member of council, and amongst others the cogent one that
it would have been impoSsible to have given him £B,OOO a-
year if he had not been. (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) He
knew
not what powers had been entrusted to Mr. Wilson
beyond those of an ordinary member of co uncil—whetherhe
had authority to deal with the enormous military establish-
ments, or was strictly confined to. fiscal and financial mat-
ters. If the latter, as was most probably the case, the Go-
vernment might just as well have app
extraordi-
nary Chancellor of the Exchequer to drawo
up
. appointed aanscheme for
the payment of the National Debt ; and he believed that
the plan would be just as likely to be successful in one case
as in the other. He said this, not because he doubted the
financial ability of Mr:Wilson but because he did not
think that the real difficulty Of India was to be traced to
causes of a fiscal character. It arose rather from the sys-
tem of administration which had been of late years adopted
there, and which was hateful alike to the great body of the
people, and to the native chiefs and nobles of the country ;
and hence it followed that it was impossible to carry on the
government of 'lndia without those enormous military
establishments which were altogether out of proportion to
the revenues and resources of the country. (Hear, hear.)
There was the great ludian difficulty. The statesmen who
had founded that empire, and who had governed it down to
the Marquis of Wellesley, had always laid down the prin-
ciple that India must be governed by the assistance of the
native chiefs and nobles. All that had since been changed
and the practice now was to treat those chiefs and nobles
with contempt, and to carry on the government by a centra-
lized system emanating from Caleglta. It was that system
which had become so hateful to the country. In illustration
of this he referred to the case of the Punjaub, which he said
was the most favourable that could be taken, because Sir J.
Lawrence was always regarded as the
elicenix of governors
and the Punjaub was considered to have been well
governed, When Sir J. Lawrence was first sent to
the Punjaub, ho went as the assistant of his brother,
Sir Henry ' Lawrence, who was the chief commis-
sioner. The views of the two brothers, however, entirely
differed, and hp believed that both wrote to Lord Dalhousie,
'stating that one or other of them unlit be recalled. The
views of Sir H. Lawrence were those generally which had
been entertained by the earlier governors, whilst those of
Sir John were that they should carry out in the Punjaub
the system which had been adopted in the North-Western
provinces—that is to say, that the nobility should be called t
on to produce the written titles to their estates, and where
they failed to do so, that the estates should be confiscated
for the purpose of replenishing an exhausted exchequer,
leaving t) the actual holders of the estates some life interest
withe
in a curtailed occupation of them. These views being laid
beforerenc Lord Dalhousie, he decided in favour of Sir .1. Law-
them out, and to
carry-out
Law-
rence, was consequently established in the Punjaub
Mangles, the out his opinions, He did carry
to such an extent that, as stated by Mr.
this conduct sooanaryn
greater
12n
in any
of property in the Punjaub was
other part of the country. The effect of
for troops. From nifested itself in the continued demand
marched into the every Punjaub, so
in India British troops were
naay
tazut,Wsoeethadietewevheernedththe
artebesilrli
J.
broke
cut the extraordi
Law-
rence had 30,000 British troops in the Punjaub whilst there