The Sun.
London, England, 1860-05-02 00:00:00

STADE TOLL.

Mr. FENWICK. asked the Secretary of State for Fe.
reign Affairs whether he was prepared to lay upon the table
of the house the correspondence that had taken place be-
tween her Majesty's and other Governments, with refer-
ence to the abolition of the Stade toll ; and whether he
would state the exact position of that question?
152 Lord T. RUSSELL said that he was not at present pre-
pared to lay rrn the table the papers alluded to by the hen.
member.

YOST-OFFICE INQIIIRI.7.

Sir S. NORTFICOTE asked the Secretary to the Trea-
sury whether the commission of inquiry at the Post-office
had terminated its labours, or had been dissolved; and, if
so, for what reasons
Mr. LAING said that the inquiry had been suspended for
a short time, but had been resumed, and the committee
was now sitting.
REVISION OF THE FRENCH TARIFF.
Mr. HENNESSY asked the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer, whether Mr. Ogilvie, of the London Customs, who
had been selected to assist in the revision of the French
tariff, as stipulated under the treaty, was the officer of that
name who, a few years ago, was engaged, under the direc-
tion of the present Chairman and Board of Customs, in
getting up the prosecutions for alleged frauds against the
various dock companies of thoport of London: Whether Mr.
Ogilvie was empl eyed in revising the British tariff which has
just been abolished, and which was based upon the prin-
ciple of levying duties by specific rates; and, further, if
there was any obj action to the reports or statements made,
on a former occasion,' by Mr. Ogilvie, to the Board of Cus-
toms, or any nit ember of it, or to any person connected
with the Governauent, in opposition to the abolition or re-
duction of the wine duties, being presented to this house.
Mr. LAING asked the hon. member Rot to press his
question until the Chancellor of the Exchequer was pre-
sent, as his right hon. friend had a statement to snake rela-
tive to Mr. Ogilvie.
SAVOY AND 'THE CONFERENCES.
Mr. S. FITZGERALD drew the attention of the noble
lord (Lord .T. Russell) to a statement alleged to have been
made by the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs in an-
other place, to the effect that the conference relative to the
annexation of Savoy to Franco wag postponed.
Lord J. It U SSE LI, said that be understood his noble
friend (Lord Wodehouse) had made a statement, but not
that the conference was to be postponed. Nothing wnhl
be done in the matter until after the meeting of the Sar-
dinian Parlia,eent ; and if there was any adverse vote, then
of course the conference would not be proceeded with.

NAVY MANNING COMMISSION.
Sir C. NAPIER moved that an humble address be pre-
sented to her Majesty, expressing the regret of this house
that, instead of a reserve of 70,000 men contemplated by the
Manning Commission, there only existed 6,362 Coastguard
men, including officers, 1,000 district ships' companies,
1,400 revenue men and 600 cruizers' men, and 5,000 or
6,000 coast volunteers not to be depended upon ; and,
as a vote of this house had unanimously decided
that the report of the Manning Commission ought to be
carried out, the house prays her Majesty will give direc-
tions that the Coastguard should be completed to 12,00 j

seamen, as recommended by the commission, ready to be
placed in efficient ships at the several ports, instead of the
present block ships, thus constituting a reserve of ten sail
of the line, ready for any emergency; that the number of naval
volunteers, now under 1,000, should be completed as soon as
possible, and the other recommendations of the commission
complied with ; and the house is also of opinion that the
bounty for able seamen ought not to have be en lowered till
the number wanted was complete. The b on. and gallant
admiral recapitulated the arguments which he has so often
of late sought to impress upon the house with reference to
the manning of the navy and the providing of an efficient
reserve. He thought the short-service pension men ought
to be allowed to enter the new corps ; and that it would be
prudent in the Admiralty to make it worth the while of
sailors who were entitled to the pension to come forward
and claim it. A great deal might be done to prevent the
frequent breakings of leave, and the discontent which so
often prevailed. Let the Admiralty give orders that when-
ever a ship came into port the men should be paid their
wages; or at least such part of it as they might choose to
ask for, and should be allowed at once to go on shore.
They did not like to be kept on board with their menefsin
their pockets. They were often called rockiest., but it was
the Government system that made them so. When the
army was paid once a month there was much more de-
bauchery amongst the troops than there was now that
they received their pay daily. In former days he had
seen seamen receive thirty or forty or even fifty pounds
the day before, or on the very day they sailed. He had
even known them to throw their money overboard, be-
cause they did not know what to do with it. (A laugh.)
During the two years he commanded the Channel fleet
there had been no discontent, because whenever he came to
port he did not let his men go on leave by driblets of 20 or
30 per cent., but he let a whole watch go at once, and for
forty-eight hours. No wonder when one captain let a
whole watch out on leave, and another only gave a similar
privilege to 30 per cent, of his crew, that there was discon-
tent. He (the gallant admiral) had been charged by the
noble lord (Lord C. Paget) with causing dissatisfaction
among the men ; but he had not caused so much as the noble
lord. On the contrary, hardly any improvement had of late
years been effected that did not originate with him (Sir C.
Napier) ; and it had generally taken the Admiralty a quar-
ter of a century to carry it into effect. The noble lord had
done what ne secretary of the Admiralty, whether in the ser-
vice or a civilian, had ever done before him—he had said that
corporal punishment should be abolished. He (Sir C.
Napier) had always contended that it was impossible at once
to put an end to it ; and he had stated as much to his con-
stituents, though they hooted him for it. The contrary de-
claration of the noble lord had tended to produce more dis-
content than anything which he (Sir C. Napier) had done.
What he had always laboured to effect was to improve the
condition of the seamen; satisfied as he was that that was
the true policy. The noble lord's speech had been hawked
and placarded about the seaports, but it had only been laughed
at. Seamen were told that they were noble, fine, jollyfellows,
only they were so suspicious, and above all so suspicious of
the Admiralty. If that was so, what was the use of telling
them that the Channel fleet was complete, when they knew
perfectly well that neither the fleet nor the reserve was any-
thing like complete ? What possible effect could it have brt
to make them think that the board were again trying to
bamboozle them, and eo to increase their suspicions ? He
thought that the regulations of the Government, with re-
gard to the pensions of warrant officers, were such as were
disgraceful to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. His hon.
friend the member for Portsmouth and himself were con-
stantly receiving letters from the widows of warrant officers
complaining that whilst if a man died in 1859 his widow
received no pension, yet if he did on the Ist of January,
1860, the widow received a pension. He next came to
the case of the naval coast volunteers, upon whom the
report said ne great reliance could be placed. But there
was a method of making these naval coast volunteers useful.
There were several blockships along the coast which were
totally unfit to join the fleet. Out of these coast blockships
he would take the masts, yards, &c., and allow the volun-
teers to practice on board of them, so that in case of an emer-
gency they might be able to make them a place of rendez-
vous. He also proposed that these ships should be called by
the names of the ports where they were lying; thus the
volunteers could say they belonged to a particular vessels
and the system would tend to combination amongst the vari-
ous members of the body. He then came to the question of
the Merchant Seamen's Fund. He would net weary the
house by reading what the report said on this subject; but
he must observe he did not find that any steps were taken
for the raising and regulating of this fund. Another recom-
mendation of the commissioners was that the right of ad-
mission to the hospitals should be held out to seamen.
But before they talked about admission into Greenwich
Hospital, the hospital must be reformed. A commission had
lately sat on the subject, and whether the Government were
ashamed or not of the report, he (Sir C. Napier) did not
know. At any rate it had not yet appeared. The coast-
guard reserve was no doubt a great relief to the navy, pro
viding as it did a sort of retiring service for seamen, with
the privilege of living on shore. But these were various
other things which might be done at the same time. There
were places in the Custom-house, as those of tide-waiters,
occapations on board lighters in the dockyards, and others,
the names of which he did not know, which ought to be
reserved for men who had served in the navy. He now
wished to speak of the great propriety, when a ship
reached home, of not restricting the men, who had been
absent from their friends sonic three or four years, from
leave, whilst officers were freely allowed to go home. This
was an evil very easily remedied. He also particularly de-
sired to call the attention of the Secretary of the Admi-
ralty to the fulloe ing circumstance. On Saturday last, as
he was passing a union workhouse, he saw some junk
which was being brought into the workhouse for the pur-
pose of being picked. He asked leave to examine it, and
what was his surprise to find that it consisted of bran new
rope, like the shears of a three-decker, which he did no t
believe had been used once. It had not the least rub or wear
upon it. Some of this rope he had taken care to forward to
Admiral Graves at Portsmouth, and he hoped that the offi-
cer who furnished it would be discovered and superseded
instanter. (Hear, hear.) Of course he (Sir C. Napier) could
not say if the same new rope would be returned ; but this
was what he had witnessed. He also thought that some-
thing must be done with regard to the increasing practice
of breaking leave amongst icemen. At present offenders of
this sort were punished in such a way as to involve the
punishment of their comrades also. He would condemn
these offenders to a week's imprisonment with hard labour.
He was averse to flogging except in extreme cases, and he
objected to the men being sent to the county gaols at Exeter,
Winchester, and elsewhere, for they often came out worse
than they went in. There ought to be prisons built on pur-
pose for offending seamen at the various seaports, He un-
derstood, however, that the Admiralty were shortly about
to issue a new code of laws. He hoped this would be pub-
lished as soon as possible. He was quite sure that if, when
a man deserted, he was tried by a court-martial, and, if
found guilty, transported to one of the penal colonies, there
would be very little desertion and very little crime of any
sort. He begged the Admiralty to take one step further,
and not allow a man to be flogged, except under sentence of
a court-martial. He himself had established some such
court on board his vessel. He used to throw open the cabin
doors and allow any one to enter, and the proceedings were
conducted with as much solemnity as possible. He thus be-
came his own judge, jury, and executioner. He believed
that, unless the men were better paid, the service would
never be improved. The Admiralty must give the market
price for labour, like every other employer. He had before
advocated the better payment of the petty officers, and he
now said the same of the seamen. With regard to the petty
officers, he would say that, whilst a captain had the power
of disrating a petty officer without a court-martial, the offi-
cer had not sufficient power over the men, and when dis-
missed he was a diseontented man. On the other hand, if
he were fried by a court martial consisting of captains of
the fleet, as the other officers were, and the utmost solemnity
were givers to the trial, it would be much more effective.
With regard to the recruiting of the fleet, however, it ap-
peared that the Ganges was 10 weeks in obtaining 428 men;
and the Renown took 17 weeks to get 653 men, and others
in a similar proportion. During the whole of this time offi-
cers' pay was running, at A great expense to the country.
He had some letters from sailors themselves which showed
what was their feeling. One said that there were plenty
of seamen afloat who would be willing to serve if proper
remuneration was given. 'The Government had rights over
the watermen and lightermeta on the river, but they were
never called on by the Admiralty. Let a plan be adopted for
drilling them on board ship, and they would be obliged to
come forward, ae their privileges depended on it. There
were blockships at 3:4iverpool and Harwich, and none at all
on the Themes, where a complete ship's company might be
obtained fur nothing. Tie was anxious to see the navy
Popular, and to be this, it aught to be put into a proper
state. The navy :Knight be made so popular that instead
of the Admiralty begging
far ;nen, men would be beg-
skipowners and the great
gißg for employment. Private
steam companies had no diff'ic'ulty in manning their
ships with choice seamen ; it was tonly the Admiralty that
had any difficulty. The Secretary' to the Admiralty said
they had got choice seamen ; but he .did not believe they
were of that character. Strict discipline must be kept up;
the men must be treated with jeestice, but punished severely
when :hey deserved it ; they re ust be ruled with an iron
hand in se. velvet glove. (He sr, hear.) They should be
treated with eeseeideete ion and indulgence when well be-
haved, but any breach of diectipline should be severely
punished.

Sir J. ELPEINsTO,-NT corbsidered that the present
n4cliinery for no management u f the navy could be modi-
fied with great aivantage. ge J Duld not help thinking
that placing a resorro force of 60,00 0 men under the control
of artver-worked depattment ck'the • public service—nal-1101Y,
the Board of Trade, was vot a j udit; 7ous arrangement. lie
thought they should endeavour' as 1 nar as possible to pro-

mote harmony between the navy Luid the mercantile marine,
I and he strongly approved of t, he recommendation
of the establishment of school ships. . By carrying out that
recommendation they would be adding yearly to the service
2,000 or 3,000 boys, who were becomint men, and reccking
an education of a character such as sail
ors had never ob-
tained before to qualify them for their c, 'uties. The hon.
baronet also drew attention to the hard&
'hips inflicted on
the wives of sailors who were not entitled t a their pensions
unless their husbanola had filled the full ter‘ ra of 10 years.

As representing a seaport town he could speak from per-
sonal experience of some of the evils of the existing system.
Lord C. PAGET thought that the practice, in which the
hon. and gallant member indulged almost weekly, of bring-
ing before the house a recapitulation of details as to the
discipline and management of the fleet in one stereotyped
speech, was not conducive to the interests of the service for
which the gallant member professed great anxiety. (Cheers.)
He would not enter into all those details, but would endea-
vour to inform the house, from official sources, of the ac-
tual position of the reserve and the fleet. With regard to
the motion, he believed it was founded on many misconcep-
tions, and he should therefore ask the house not to agree to
it. The first part expressed " the regret of this house that,
instead of a reserve of 70,000 men contemplated by the
manning commission, there only exists 6,362 Coastguard
men, including officers, 1,900 district ships' companies,
1,400 revenue men and 600 cruisers' men, and 5,000 or
6,900 coast volunteers, not to be depended upon." He
thought that was offensive to the seamen of the country.
(Cheers.) The coast volunteers were enrolled for service on
the coasts, and not for foreign service, which was a very
different thing. He maintained that they were to be de-
pended upon, and that the contrary assertion was offensive to
the seamen and the public. (Cheers.) The Commission
on Manning the Navy recommended various improuements
in the position of the men with regard to pensions, pay,
provisions, and clothing, many of which had already been
effected. 114 e commissioners then recapitulated their pro-
positions for the service of the country, and to those points
he wished to limit his observations. They proposed that
there should be reliefs in the home ports to the number of
4,000 men. Every gentleman connected with the Admiralty
was equally as desirous as the commissioners to see that car-
ried out, and he believed that this year, supposing they got
all the men for whom Parliament had voted the money,
there would be a considerable number of reliefs in the home
ports. (Cheers.) As to the Coastguard, to which the hon.
and gallant member next referred; he stated the other day
the amount ef that invaluable force. In the Coastguard
there were 6,862 sailors, officers, and boys. It might be said
that the number did not represent the true strength, because
the officers were included, but men without officers were a
mere rabble, and in a reserve force there must be a number
of officers corresponding with the number of men. (Hear.)
There were nearly 7,000, besides 476 Marines, who were
attached to the Coastguard, and, in spite of anything which
might be said to the contrary, he maintained that in any
emergency it would be found to be a most invaluable force.
(Hear.) There were besides 1,381 civilians, about whom
he would only say he believed that they would, if neces-
sary, do good service. The gallant admiral said it was de-
sirable that the Coastguard should be increased to 12,000
men. He agreed with the gallant admiral, and knowing
the extreme value ef that body, the Admiralty were daily
increasing the numbers. It was not the work of this par-
ticular Board of Admiralty ; but for years it had been a
rule that whenever a man-of-war was paid off every seaman
who had served seven years, with a good character, was
allowed to go at once into the Coastguard. The result was
to increase the Coastguard, but, at the same time, to lessen
the number of men fit for petty officers. They could not
eat their cake and have it too. If they would have a nu-
merous and efficient reserve of Coastguard they must take
the best men from the fleet. (Hear.) With regard to the
blockships, the Hastings at Liverpool had been replaced by
the Majestic. Again, at Portland, where there was a good
harbour, the Colossus, or a sister ship—an 80-gun ship—
would be placed there. But there was expense attending those
changes, and he wished the gallant admiral would always
mention the cost when he alluded to those notices. (Hear.)
There was besides great difference of opinion as to the policy
of placing seagoing ships as Coastguard ships. (Hear.) The
gallant officer desired that the Admiralty should be able
to put men on board their ships, make them ready for sea
in cases of emergency, and that the ships should be in good
order and prepared to fight the enemy next day. Well, the
Admiralty had just had a proof that, without making this
change, ships might be made available in a few hours. Not
many weeks ago it was decided by the Admiralty to place
the Majestic at Liverpool, instead of the Hastings, and orders
were accordingly sent to Liverpool that the crew of the Hast-
ings should proceed to Sheerness, and that the men should
take possession of the Majestic and proceed to sea. The men
left Liverpool at 8 o'clock one night, and having reached
Sheerness went on board the Majestic, and were ready for
sea the next afternoon. The next point to which the gal-
lant officer's motion alluded was the number of the naval
volunteers, and he stated that the number, now under 1,000,
should be completed as soon as possible. He must first of
all say that the gallant officer was incorrect in his figures.
The naval volunteers did really amount to 1,000 ; and, con-
sidering that the force had been scarcely more than two
months in existence, he thought the progress made satis-
factory. He did not believe that u great volunteer force
could be raised suddenly. Seamen's wages were now £3 10s.,
and there was a great scarcity of men ; and as a great force
could not be got suddenly, the Government must be satis-
fied with a gradual progress, if made on sound principles.
The suggestions which had been made by the members for
Oxfordshire, Northumberland, and others, had not been
neglected, a-ad shipping masters had been consulted with
respect to them. (Hear.) The hon. and gallant admiral,
among other proposals, recommended that instead of paying
the men at the end of the quarter in which they were en-
rolled, the Government should pay them on enrolment; but
he had received a letter begging that such a plan might not
be adopted, as it would disgust the good men who honestly
came forward, for they knew that others would ask to be en-
rolled for the sake of getting 11 10s., would get drunk an the
money, and disgrace the rest of the force. With respect to
the short-service pensioners, the gallant admiral asked why
they were not allowed after a short service of 10 3 ears
to go into the reserve, joining the naval volunteers, instead
of being kept in the ship. Such proceeding could not be
adopted without damaging the fleet. If all the men of 10
years' service in the fleet were invited to join the volunteers,
what was to become of the fleet ? There would be no sea-
men in it. The country had got a young fleet, and he was
about to show the house what the Government had done
within the last year in creation of a fleet ; and, so far from
the state of things being matter of regret, it was a subject
for congratulation that in so short a time so many men had
been raised for her Majesty's service. Ho had stated what
had been obtained in the coastguard. The commissioners
recommended that there should be a body of marines on
shore amounting to 6,000. This was not included in the
gallant admiral's view, because that gallant officer's object
was to show the poverty of the nation's forces, and the
gallant officer had entirely overlooked the fact that the body
of marines on shore amounted to 6,178, being greater than
the Commission recommended. With respect to the short-
service pension marines the same argument held good as
with respect to sailors, for, if all the marines who had served
10 years were to leave for the purpose of joining the re-
serve, the best men would be lost to the active service. No
doubt, in some years hence, when this matter was on a
good footing, and the men could be spared, it might be de-
sirable to have recourse to the short• service pensioners.
The number of men enrolled in the Royal Naval Volun-
teers from the Ist of January, 1860, to the 30th of April,
1860, was 894 ; and the number of applications await-
ing verification of service before the grant of certifi-
cates was 83, making a total of 977 men ; and he had since
seen a return, according to which the number was stated
to amount to 1,000; and there were now on the re-
gisters, available for immediate service, 7,015 Royal
Naval Coast Volunteers. These were very important
points ; but the most important point of all related to the
boys ; for, let what would be done with the reserve, the
means of enabling the country to have a really efficient
navy must depend upon educating the boys. (Hear.) A
statement for the years 1857, 1858, and 1859 would show
the increase which had been gradually taking place in the
establishment of the boys, as the Governments of the day
perceived the necessity for an augmentation. In 1857 the
number of boys was 1,898, in 1858 the number was about
the same, but in 1859 the number had increased to 5,147.
At the present time we had no less than 8,535 boys. (Hear,
hear.) Opinions might vary as to the percentage of boys
which it was desirable to have in the fleet, and he did not
think that point was yet satisfactorily ascertained. It was
still under the consideration of the Admiralty. The per-
centage at present of boys was about one-sixth, but some
authorities thought it ought to be as high as one-fifth.
However that might be, the fact remained that we had at
present 8,500 boys, who would become in a short time first-
rate seamen. The hon. and gallant admiral had talked of
the impossibility of getting men for the navy—that our
ships were under-manned, that the men were discontented
and were unhandsomely treated. The answer to that was,
that in the whole Channel fleet, consisting of 12 sail of the
line and three large frigates, there was only a deficiency in
warrant and petty officers and able seamen of 377. (Hear.)
In the Mediterranean fleet, of about the same strength, the
position was almost precisely similar, and a draught of

about 150 men were on their way out to fill up thoso vacan
. _

cies. Those facts did not justify the gallant admiral coming
down to the house and asking for a censure upon the Go-
♦ernment, past as well as present, for not creating a re-
serve as fast as his imagination led him to believe it could
be created. The next point he would mention was as to
training ships, for it must be borne in mind that a naval
reserve could not be kept up solely by the pay allowed to
those who entered it, Training ships were a most impor-
tant portion of the scheme, and he would state what had
been done in that matter. For the naval coast volunteers
there was the Hastings at Liverpool, which had been
transferred from the Coastguard, and the Castor at Green-

lathe. Those ships were fitted up as complete
mou-ot-war with bedding utensils, boats, &c., because
the men lived on board during their month's drill.

There was also the the Brilliant in the City Canal,

which was not so fitted up, because the men only went on

board during the day, and there was the Trincomalee fitting

to be sent to the north of England. A smaller steamer, the
Wesor, was also being got ready to take men to the mouth

of the Thames in order to practise firing at targets. Those
training vessels were only in addition to the innumerable

gai;,s and batteries all over England. For the training of
boys one line of battle ship was fitting at Devonport, and

she, no doubt, NT o:#.ld be the forerunner of others. (Hear.)
There were also the four brigs—one at Cork, two at Ports-
mouth, and one at Devonport. He thought he had shown
by thia facts he had adduced that the Admiralty had endea-

voured to increase our naval reserve, and by promoting the
introduction of boys to create a nursery for seamen. There

was only one other point to which lie felt it necessary to

refer, and that was in relation to the latter 'portion of the
hon. and gallant admiral's motion, that " the house is also
of opinion that the bounty for able seamen ought not to have
been lowered till the number wanted was complete." He
(Lord C. Paget) thought he had already answered that
opinion, as he had shown that our fleets were only a few
men short of their proper complements, and the deficiencies
were only such as the ordinary casualties would create ;
that we had a vast number of boys who were growing into
good sailors ; that they were daily entering seamen suffi •
dent to fill up any vacancies that might exist ; and that
therefore it would have been unwise and unnecessary to
continue the payment of a large bounty.. (Hear, hear.)
He demurred to the proposition of the ganant admiral that
bounties were good things, and. indeed, he regarded the
system of bounties as an unwholesome one. (Hear, hear.)
He admitted that last year there were strong reasons for
the course which the right hon.:entleman opposite (Sir J.
Pakington) took in offering a large bounty, which certainly
did enable the country to obtain a good many men. (Hear,
hear.) The present Government had lowered the bounty
because they thought the offer of a large bounty was, in
ordinary circumstances, an ok'ectionable system. He be-
lieved it had been one of the causes of that craving for leave
which had become apparent anong the men, because they
had their pockets full of moray, and were always wanting
opportunities for spending it, and, therefore, he held the
opinion that the offer of a large bounty, except under pecu-
liar circumstances, was unwise and detrimental to the pub-
lic service. He thought he hat proved to the house that the
Admiralty had not been unmindful of their duty, and that
it was their continual study tc improve the condition of the
navy, and therefore he hopedthe house would not agree to
the motion of the hon. and gallant admiral. (Hear.)
Sir J. PAKINGTCN agreed with the noble lord that
the motion of the gallant admiral was too extensive and
peculiar, and his speech too general, to make it an easy task
to follow him. With respectto the last portion of the mo-
tion, he doubted whether it was framed in accordance with
the rules of the house, and whether the Speaker could put
a motion which commenced ay an address to the Crown
and concluded with a resolution. He was glad, however,
to hear that the Admiralty hid decided to lower the bounty,
as he did not consider it was desirable to retain the bounty
system as a permanent system. (Hear.) His sincere belief
was, that under the peculiar circumstances that existed
last year, the late Government were justified in taking the
step they did take, and the noble lord had very frankly ad-
mitted that he took a similar view. But the adoption of
that exceptional course last year did not at all imply an
approval of a permanent system of bounties, and he had
felt some apprehension lest the present Government might
intend to continue that system. He had heard with great
pleasure what had been said by his noble friend on this
subject, and thought the Government had acted with great
propriety in reference to it. At the same time, while he
could not concur in censuring them for what they had
done, he was glad that the gallant Admiral had brought
this motion forward, because the practical ques-
tion which he had submitted was one of great interest
to the house and the country. What were the exertions
which the Admiraltj, were now making to attain the all-
important object of a permanent and reliable naval re-
serve ? That was the point for consideration, and the
gallant Admiral's motion had elicited from the noble lord a
statement which would, he thought, give much satisfaction.
(Hear, hear.) 'With regard to the maintenance of reliefs
at the various ports, there was no subject on which the late
Board entertained greater anxiety. The Committee on
Manning the Navy and the Royal Commission had made a
wise recommendation on this point, and he was very glad
to hear from the noble lord that if the numbers voted by
Parliament were completed, there would be in the ports
somewhere about 4,000 men available for immediate service
afloat. (Hear.) He did hope the successive Boards of
Admiralty would never lose sight of this point, and that the
House of Commons would never hesitate to grant every
year the necessary funds to prevent the disgraceful spec-
tacle of men-of-war lying in harbour for months before they
could complete their complement of men. (Hear, hear.)
With regard to the coastguard he understood the noble lord
to say that, the Royal Commissioners having recommended
the raising of this force to 12,000 men, the Admiralty were
now aiming to procure that number. The estimates did
not so provide, because, no doubt, they could not expect to
obtain so many men iu the present year, but he understood
it to be the intention of the Board ultimately, and as soon as
they could, to raise the force of coast-guard to 12,000 men.
(Hear, hear.) Then came the question of the Royal Naval
Volunteers. Nc w, it might appear a trifling matter, but he
would ask whether the Board were doing well to retain that
name. We had already the Naval Coast Volunteers, and
would it not be better to have a distinct title for each, and
to call the new force by the very intelligible name of the
Royal Naval Reserve? (Hear.) The main point was how soon
this would become an effective and anavailable force. He did
not despair of seeing the number of men whe came forward
considerably increased, and he trusted that the Admiralty
would spare no exertions to complete the number. The
noble lord had spoken of thd scarcity of seamen as one
reason for the slow increase of this reserve force. It was
most undesirable, both in the interests of the Royal Navy
and of the merchant service, that such a scarcity should
exist, and, with a view to supply the want, he quite agreed
with the noble lord as to the great importance of increasing
the number of boys in the service. (Hear, hear.) Whether
the proportion of boys to seamen should be one-fifth or one-
sixth he would not venture to say ; but it should be remem-
bered that whatever abstractedly might be the desirable
proportion, it must he difficult, if not impossible, to fix that
proportion with precision so long as the House of Commons
were in the habit of voting at the request of the Govern-
ment a fluctuating number of seamen each year. However
this might be, the surest way of maintaining the navy was
to train up men for ourselves, and always to take care to
have a large number of boys in training. (Hear, hear.)
From the latter part of the speech of his noble friend he
hoped it might be inferred that the Government intended
to carry out the whole recommendation of the Royal Com-
mission on this subject. (" Hear," from Lord C. Paget.)
He was glad to hear that cheer, and wished also to know
whether the recommendation respecting schooiships would
be followed. This recommendation most wisely went far
beyond the requirements of the Royal Navy. The Commis-
sion contemplated the training of boys, so as to supply the
merchant marine also, and no part of their report was
sounder and more judicious. It was to be hoped that, as the
result of the measures suggested by the Commission, cor-
dial relations would be established between the two ser-
vices, so that merchant seamen might be led to enter the
navy freely in times of emergency. Altogether he gladly
accepted the noble lord's statement that the Admiralty were
doing all they could to insure the efficient manning of the
navy, and the formation of a reserve which should be in-
stantly available in case of need. (Hear, hear.)
Sir M. SEYMOUR said there could be no doubt, either
there or elsewhere, as to the great importance of carrying
out'the recommendations of the Royal Commission, be-
cause nothing could be of more vital importance to the
people of this country than having an ample add effi-
cient naval reserve in the time of need. He had been
much gratified by the statement of the noble lord, because it
had shown an intention on the part of the Government to
carry out the recommendations of the commission in a
manner which would be satisfactory to the house and to the
country. He must say that with our voluntary system we
laboured under great disadvantages as compared with other
nations where.compulsory service was the rule. We stood
alone in our arrangements in that respect, having as it were
a free trade in seamen. One by one the proclamations and
orders in council by which our seamen were prohibited from
serving other Governments had been withdrawn or fallen into
disuetude. Our navigation laws had been swept away,
under which a numerous and hardy race of able-bodied sea-
men had been bred as apprentices in our coasting trade ;
and the whole tendency and character of modern legislation
had been such as to diminish our command of able-bodied
seamen for the navy. (Hear.) At the same time our com-
merce had not declined, but increased, our colonial interests
had not diminished, but increased in importance, and, in
case of any hostilities at home, he was at a loss to under-
stand how we were to find sufficient numbers to meet the
emergency. We certainly had not a sufficiently large re-
serve at present, and he would only express his most earnest
hope that the Government, by carrying without delay the
recommendations of the commission into effect, would thus
secure the interests and maintain the honour of the country.
Mr. CORRY said that last year lie had been accused of
" rushing into vulgar expenditure ;" but his principle was,
that no expenditure should be incurred that could be pos-
sibly avoided. The changing of these block ships every
three years was wholly unnecessary, and he was therefore
opposed to the waste of public money which such a course
would occasion to the extent of £128,000 every three years.
The best way to deal with the block ships would be to let
them die a natural death, and not replace them as they
wore out. He hoped the gallant admiral would not divide
the house, but if he did he should vote against the motion.
Admiral Sir G. PECHRLL urged the expediency of
training boys for the navy, as such an arrangement was
more necessary now than ever.

Admiral WALCOTT concurred in the necessity of main-
taining the nary in the highest state of efficiency, but he

thought there were many alleged grievances enumerated by
the gallant admiral which would be far better left to the

consideration of the Admiralty and the ship's officers than
brought so frequently before Parliament. He agreed in
the remarks of his hon. friend (Mr. Corry) respecting a
uniform system of leave. If habits of care and forethought
were cultivated in their sailors, they might rely upon it
they would not long have to deplore those scenes of de-

bauchery and dissipation which were so disgraceful on the
part of the British sailor. If they once permitted any in-
subordination in their fleet there would then be an end of
their utility and prowess as a maritime nation. He could

not agree in the propriety of increasing the coast guard to
12,000 men. He hoped the Admiralty would introduce into
_ _ _

the navy 3,000 or 4,000 boys annually, but they should take
care that too great a proportion of boys was not introduced
into each ship. For the manning of the navy they must
trist to themselves, and not rely on the mercantile marine

in time of peace. It was a subject for congratulation that
they had 24 sail of the line, quite independent of frigates,
ready in case of any emergency.

Sir H. VERNEY said that from his own experience he
could boar testimony to the efficiency of boys on board ship%
and he read an extract of a letter from a naval officer which

quite confirmed this view. When ships were paid off the

men were dispersed, and we lost their services when they
were required again. This did not occur in the army, and
ought not to occur in the navy. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. BENTINCK suggested that the motion of the gal-
lant admiral should not be pressed to a division, although
the house should be indebted to him for bringing the
matter under consideration. He (Mr. Bentinck) thought
the time for discontinuing the bounty was when the
number of men required had been completed. It was
premature to discontinue the bounty until the required
complement of men had entered the service. As to the
coast guard the house was not aware of the value of their
services. In 1859, in 11 stations they had saved property to
the amount of £791,000, and 1,243 lives. (Hear, hear.) As
to manning the navy there could be no difficulty if they
followed the example of the mercantile marine, namely, to
pay the market price. It was an unwise and injudicious
parsimony which prevented the Admiralty from obtaining
an adequate supply of men. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. WILLIAMS was of opinion that if flogging in the
navy were abolished any number of men required might be
easily obtained.
Sir C. NAPIER replied, and in doing so complained that
his observations had been perverted by the noble lord (Lord
C. Paget), and that the same course had been pursued by
the noble lord on former occasions. He concluded by ask-
ing leave to withdraw his motion, which as withdrawn
accordingly.
BERWICK-UPON-TWEED ELECTION.
Mr. PEEL, as chairman of the Berwick election com-
mittee, moved an address for a commission of inquiry into
the bribery alleged at that election, and that the concur-
rence of the Lords be requested in presenting such address.
He detailed the circumstances adduced before the commit-
tee, which led to the conclusion that bribery had been com-
mitted. The inquiry before the committee was incomplete ;
it was only carried to the extent necessary for the purpose
of the petition, and it was for the house to decide whether
it would carry the inquiry any further into the state of a
borough long notorious for corruption. It was only by the
issue of a commission that the deeply-rooted habits of the
voters could be eradicated. He did not anticipate that the
inquiry would be either long or expensive, as the place was
not large nor the circumstances complicated.
Mr. D. COUTTS MAJORIBANKS, one of the mem-
bers for the borough, said that he had stood under an ex-
press declaration that he would not spend a single shilling
in any corrupt act. That pledge he had strictly kept, nor
had he been ever asked to break it. His elections had cost
him in each case very moderate sums. Berwick had during
the last year been very sorely tried, and not fairly used ;
still he should feel it his duty to vote for the motion, satis-
fied that the circumstances would, as far as he was con-
cerned, bear the strictest investigation.
Mr. MACAULAY objected to a commission being issued
for the mere purpose of satisfying the curiosity of the com-
mittee as to the condtect of the individuals on the list in
question.
Lord R. CECIL, as a member of the committee, observed
that it had not been proved that the person offering the bribe
was not an agent of the candidate. All the machinery for
corruption was to be found in the place, which was a pre-
sumptive proof of its prevalence.
Mr. E. JAMES likewise supported the motion, which was
opposed by Mr. LONGFIELD.
Mr. COLLIER said that previous commissions had been
of essential service, and that the Electoral Corruption Com-
mittee had drawn its most important information from their
reports. Hitherto they had always issued commissions on
the report of committees, and if they now retraced their
steps they would never have another commission.
Mr. M. SMITH said the evidence of bribery was not
sufficient to justify the commission, which, in all proba-
bility, would lead to nothing.
Mr. BRIGHT was willing to take the opinion of mem-
bers of the committee, and to support the commission. If
it did not issue, they would be in a worse position than if
the Corrupt Practices Act had never passed. He believed
that great good had resulted from previous commissions,
speaking from his own knowledge in the case of Wakefield.
Mr. MALINS opposed the commission, as leading to no
result except needless expense.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL protested against the
low view of the question when thus taken on the ground of
expense. He advocated the commission, adding that there
ought to be a distinct understanding that its report would
be acted upon. He pledged himself, so far as his own
office was concerned, to take all possible measures to give
it clue effect.
Lord PALMERSTON declared that he could not be-
lieve that the house would hesitate in a case of such noto-
rious bribery and corruption. He denied the commission
would lead to no result. The mere exposure of gross de-
linquency would act as a preventative to future offences.
The house, he insisted, would shrink from its duty if it re•
fused to appoint this commission.
Mr. WHITESIDE inquired why the Attorney-General
was silent on a similar case of the Galway election ? That
learned gentleman had promised much for the future, but
said nothing as to the past. The practical question was,
if this commission would have more important consequences
than its predecessors, which had no consequences at all.
Sir G. LEWIS, adverting to an observation that one of
the persons implicated in the Wakefield case had been re-
tained as a magistrate for the borough, said that if the al-
legation were proved against that person he would be re-
moved from the commission forthwith.
Mr. S. ESTCOURT was favourable to the issuing of the
commission, and hoped that it would shadow forth the
course which they ought to pursue in consequence of such
inquiries. Should these lead to no result, it would be use-
less to appoint commissions in future.
The motion was then agreed to.
Mr. PEEL followed up this motion by another, that the
house direct the prosecution of one of the witnesses before
the committee for perjury.
This motion was also agreed to.
Mr. CARD WE LL obtained leave to introduce a bill for
taking the census of Ireland.
ATTORNEYS, SOLICITORS, PROCTORS, AND
CERTIFIC.4TED CONVEYANCERS BILL.
The house went into committee on this bill.
Mr. LOCKE moved the omission of the word "manag-
ing" in clause 4.
After some conversation the word " managing " was
struck out.
Clauses up to 18 were agreed to.
On clause 18, which empowers attorneys, solicitors, and
proctors to act as justices of the peace in certain cases, a
discussion arose as to the expediency of not conferring such
a power within a certain area.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said it was desirable that
the administration of justice should not even in appearance
be exposed to suspicion, and that if it were in any consider-
able number of instances to happen that gentlemen occu-
pied seats on the judicial bench within the area to which
their practice in their profession extended such a result
would not be unlikely to be brought about. No one, of
course, supposed that the exclusion of those to whom the
bill related from the bench of justice would be advocated on
the ground of any personal unworthiness on their part as a
body to hold such a position.
Mr. MOWBRAY suggested that his hon. and learned
friend should withdraw the clause.
After some discussion the clause was negatived, without
a division, and the CIIAIRNIAN was ordered to report pro-
gress.
ECCLESIASTICAL COURTS JURISDICTION BILL.
This bill passed through committee.
The Common Lodging .houses (Ireland) Bill was read a
third time and passed.
REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE BILL.
Lord PALMERSTON fixed this bill for Thursday next,
when he hoped it would pass through the second reading ;
but, at all events, on Thursday night he should feel it his
duty to take the sense of the house if a further adjournment
should be moved. The Reform Bill would take precedence
of other orders on Thursday.
Mr. HENNESSY inquired whether the second reading
of the Irish' Reform Bill would be taken before the commit-
tee on the English Reform Bill ?
Lord PALMERSTON said he would consider tha
matter.
The Customs Bill was read a third time and passed.
The house adjourned at five minutes past 1 o'clock.

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