The Sun.
London, England, 1860-01-25 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENING, JANUARY 25, 1860.

tions of this country with foreign Powers. The Crown also
possesses the great prerogative of declaring war and making
peace.. But this, high authority is guarded by this rule--
that her Majesty's servants are to be held strictly respon-
sible for the manner in which it is exercised ; and further,
that whenever the situation of the country is such that it
is necessary to arm with a view to probable, or even pos-
sible hostilities, it-is-the duty of the advisers of the Crown
to make this known to Parliament, and to call on Parlia-
ment to provide for the expense to be thus incurred-
My
lords, it is not requisite that war should be declared in
order to create an occasion when such a communication
ought to be made to the Legislature. It is sufficient if the state
of things is such that a necessity arises for making naval and
military preparations. I am convinced there are none of your
lordships who will dispute that I am laying down correctly
what may be regarded as the law and practice of Parretlt
I might quote many examples to show how rips
rule has been adhered to, but I shall trouble your to ?s p
with only two ; and in doing so I hope I shall not be tak-
ins up too much of your time. (Hear.) Theseprecedents, acted
showing how in former times great Ministers have
ord-
in these cases, will be valuable. as a guide to your 1179
ships' judgment in the present instance.
S In the y r 0
ea
some British vessels were seized by the paniards on the
north-west coast of America. An application was made by
our Government for redress.. That application was not at-
tended to. On the contrary, Spain replied by putting for-
ward claims that were held to be inadmissible; and a fresh
application was ordered to be made by the English ambas-
sador at Madrid. At the same time, on the sth of May, a
message from the Crown was brought down to both houses
of Parliament, in which, after reciting at greater length than
I have done the facts I have just stated, his Majesty made
use of the following words :—" Under the circumstances,
his Majesty, having also received information that con•
siderable armaments are going on in the ports of Spain, has
judged it to be indispensably necessary to give orders that
such preparations shall be made as may put it in his Ma-
jesty's power to act with vigour in support of the honour
of his Crown and the interests of his people. And his Ma-
jesty recommends his faithful Commons, in whose zeal he
has the most perfect reliance, to take such measures as will
enable him to effect such an augmentation of his forces as
may be requisite for that purpose." This message was
brought down by Mr. Pitt before the Crown proceeded to
increase the naval or military force of the country in the
case of the Nootka Sound dispute. The Address in answer
to the Royal message was unanimously agreed to on the
following day by both houses ; and the House of Commons
gave a vote of credit of £1,000,000 to meet tho expenses of
the .proposed armament. I need not tell your lordships that,
in consequence of the determined attitude of this country,
the difference relative to Nootka Sound passed off without
a war. There is another case. At the beginning sf De-
cember, 1826, the Princess Regent of Portugal applied to
England under the treaties between Portugal and this coun-
try for assistance to defend her dominions against an appre-
hended aggression on the part of Spain. The British Go-
vernment determined that this appeal was one which should
be responded to. Accordingly, on the 11th of December,
1826, a message from the Crown was brought down to both
houses. On the following day, the 12th of December,
Mr. Canning, in moving the address in answer to the mes-
sage, informed the House of Commons that the decision of
the Cabinet had been come to only on the Saturday ; that
it was approved on the Sunday, ;and on the Monday
the message was sent down to the House of Commons.
Such, my lords, was the course adopted on those two
occasions. Contrast it with what happened in the present
instance. On the 16th of September last the despatches
of the English Admiral arrived from China. I have no
means of knowing how soon after that the decision of the
Government was comp to, but we know from the news-
papers that at a very early period afterwards prepara-
tions were commenced. My lords, it is new more than four
months since this intelligence was received, and during at
least three of those months our forts and arsenals have re-
sounded with the din of preparation. Measures have been
taken, as we all know from the public sources of infores orma-
tion, for despatching artillery, gunbots, st to
China. I do not know whether any troops have been ordered
to proceed to China direct from this country, but troops
have certainly been ordered to proceed thither from India,
and preparations have been made for a large force, we are
told:not less than 10,000 men, in addition to our naval forces.
Therefore, a very large expense must already have been in-
curred, and I only ask you to contrast the course which has
thus been taken—all these measures being taken during
three months—without communication with Parliament till
this moment, with the practice which I have described as
having been taken on the occasions to which I have alluded
by Mr. Pitt and Mr. Canning. (Hear, hear.) They thought
it their duty before they did anything else at once to ask
Parliament to support the Crown in the measures they pro-
posed to adopt. Is that, my lords, to be the rule in future ?
If it is not, r say that it is necessary that we should take
some notice of the delay that has taken place. If we admit
that a Minister may without blame for so long a period as
I have mentioned continue warlike preparations without
seeking the aid and sanction of Parliament to his measures,
I say we admit that a principle which our greatest
statesmen and our most distinguished writers have always
held an essential element in our constitution, is no longer
binding upon our statesmen. The !power of the Crown
to enter on war is admitted, but it has always been
held that it was only safe that this great power should
be intrusted to the Executive Government of the day,
because they were not at liberty to take even one step
towards involving the country in war without associating
Parliament in the measures they adopted. It was con-
sidered to be their duty to call on Parliament for sup •
~
port in the very first instance, and when the appeal was
made to Parliament the whole question of the policy and
justice of the`war was immediately brought under the con-
sideration of theigreat council of the nation, which had it in
its power to check at the very beginning any steps which it
might think inexpedient, or calculated to involve the coun-
try in an unjust or impolitic war. (Hear, hear.) But what
becomes of this security ? What becemes of this guard
against abuse if a Minister is to be allowed for such a time
as 1 have described to carry on warlike preparations keep-
ing Parliament ignorant of them? (Hear, hear.) It may,
perhaps, be said that in the instances I have quoted Parlia-
ment was sitting at the time, and therefore it was natural
that Government should make a communication to it as
soon as circumstances arose which, in their opinion, made
it empedient for the country to arm. My lords, I can really
scarcely believe that anybody will pretend that the mere
accident of Parliament being sitting at the time should
make the slightest difference. If it is proper to make a
communication to Parliament it is proper also to call Par-
liament together for the purpose of receiving that communi-
cation, and neither our convenience nor the convenience of
the members of the othbr House of Parliament ought for a
moment to be put in competition with the importance of
maintaining a great constitutional principle—(hear, hear)
—and, as it is in the power of the Government at any time,
with very short delay, to call Parliament together, if it was
their duty, while Parliament was sitting, to make such a
communication, it was equally their duty to call Parliament
together for the purpose of receiving it. (Hear, hear.) I
may, perhaps, be told that the large and liberal grants
made by Parliament in last session for our naval and mili-
tary service rendered it unnecessary to make a further com-
munication to Parliament. My lords, it is, no doubt, true
that Parliament made large and liberal grants in the last
session for the naval and military service ; but these grants
wore not more than sufficient to provide for the demands on
the service which Parliament thought ought to be pro-
vided for before these new demands on account of the
Chinese war were known. What has occurred in
China certainly in no degree diminishes the demand on
those services in other countries. If looked into we may,
perhaps, find that demand rather increased than diminished.
It may be possible that by postponing what measures cannot
ultimately be abandoned, with a view of considering the
more urgent demands of the Chinese war, no technical irre-
gularity may have taken place, or any illegal approbation
been made. I am quite prepared to expect that such is the
fact ; but of this I am quite sure, that not only a large, but
a very large, expenditure has already been incurred, which
Parliament will ultimately have no alternative but to pro-
vide; that an expenditure has been incurred which may
also lead to one far, far larger than anything we may yet
dream, an expense of almost incalculable amount. And I
would point out to your lordships that this question of ex-
pense is not a mere technical One of so many pounds paid
under such and such a head of the estimates ; what is really
wanted is this—that the country is not to be committed to
any heavy expenditure and, above all, to no heavy enpendi-
ture in the way of war, without giving the great council of
the nation an opportunity of considering the propriety of
that war. (Hoar, hear.) I contend, therefcre, my lords,
that in the '
course they have pursued on this subject her
Majesty's Government have been guilty of an unjustifiable
departure from the established practice of Parliament. And
I am the more surprised that this should happen under the
present Government, because it happens that there is in the
present Government a very distinguished person who only
three years ago laid doiin in very clear terms what is the
correct rule to follow on this subject. (Hear.) In the de-
bate which took place in the other House of Parliament
upon the Address in the year 1857 I find that the following
expressions were used with reference to the Persian war
" If her Majestfs Government have carried us into a Pei:-
shin war it was their duty to have called Parliament toe
flier at the first moment when they ventured to contemplate
so serious a step. I will say, without fear of contradiction,
that the practice of commencing wars without associating
Parliament with the first measures is utterly at variance
with the established practice of the country, danger-
ous to the constitution, and absolutely requiring the inter-
vention of this house in order to render the recognition of
so dangerous a proceeding utterly impossible." (Opposition
cheers.) My lords, the person who made these comments
with reference to the Persian war was the present Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer—(continued Opposition cheers)--4hat
member of the Government whose duty it is to see that in
the administration of the finances the rules of Parliament
are strictly adhered to. (Hear, hear.) Now, my lords, the
object of the amendment which I shall think it my duty to
move will be simply to enforce this sound view-of the law
and practice of Parliament. There are many other impor-
tant questions which will arise in regard to the Chinese war
—questions which I hope your lordships will have to consi-
der at a very early period. There may be a question whe-
ther we have any just cause of war with China at all--(op-
position cheers)—whether the Chinese, having had experi-
ence that the way of access to their capital by the Peiho was
exposed and undefended—a source of considerable danger—
were justified in fortifying it, and thereby obstructing the
mouth- of the river—whether, taking those measures pub-
licly, and announcing them in the Pekin Gazette, they af-
forded any just ground of complaint to this country, or any
right to insist that the obstructions so placed in the mouth
of the .river should be removed in order to enable our am-
bassador to proceed to Pekin—whether the treaty of Tien-
havine given us a right to send an ambassador to Pe-
kin, but being silent as to the route which that ambassador
should take—(" hear, hear," from Lord Derby)—our pleni-
potentiary waswould entitled to say, when offered another route,
that he
not being
open,
by no other than the Peiho, and this
whether, even if
he
eat he was entitled to force it—(hear)—
use of force, withotiltiad such a right, he was entitled to make
Pekin to see whether, to the Imperial authorities at
they might not be inaues:ed
mere peaceable representations,
to withdraw the obstructions—
(hear)--whether it made any difference that those fortifica-
tions were stated to be garrisoned by aforco of militia, and not
by the regular troops of the entire; whether, if we ourselves
should think that, in the event-of tkieiaperor of the French
insisting to come to London, and sending a number of
a
gun-
boats up the Thames to effect that object
which should find
obstructions to their further progress t Gravesend,
would be entitled to remove those obstructions by he
order' e•
hie, forces to fire upon them because they happened t be
inartoed only by a body of the Kent Militia ; whether
eircneistanee of our demand being backed in the case of. the
Chines.) by the despatch of a large military and naval force
to that country in a manner which will probably lead to war
is calculated to promote, in any one respect, the interests of
hear)— and whether any conclusion to
Ene-landc— (gear,
which such A contest may be brought can in, any one par-
ticular be cemlucive to our real benefit. (Hear, hear.)
may also ask,
ra.ielords, whether any treaty which we may
succeed in extorting from China, or any amount of degrada-
tion which we reasir impose upon her Government, is likely
to place us in a b enter position in her regard, or whether we
have any securits r thatsuch a treaty would be acted
.upon
one hone beyond Ishe time at whic happen orce by which it was
wrung from the people to be withdrawn.
Thep, my lords, ist becomes a question whether our great

•..........,..................
trade with China—a trade which, directly and indirectly,
contributes more • to our prosperity than that which we
carry on withany other nation of the world, with the single
exception of the -United States—a trade which is of such
enormous importance to the flourishing condition of Our In-
dian revenue—would be likely to be promoted by burning
the cities and slaughtering the inhabitants of that vast em-
pire ; whether, in a word, they would,be in a position to be
of advantage to us owing to the fact that we spread devas-
tation through their land. (Hear.) Is it wise and prudent
that we should enter upon a contest from which, once it is
commenced, there may be no retreat, save by pulling down
the 'ancient and already tottering fabric of the Chinese
Empire? (Hear, hear.) Those, mylords, are grave ques-
tions, which it is our duty to consider with a
deliberation commensurate to their importance. They
open, however, too extensive a field to be adequately
discussed on an occasion like the present. I now
advert to the fact that such questions call for our serious
notice simply as affording to my mind conclusive proof of
the impropriety of the delay which has occurred on thepart
of her Majesty's:Government in bringing this subject under
the consideration of the Legislature. It will be our duty to
deal with these in the course of this session, but we cannot
do so with the same effect as three months ago might have
been the case. Parliament may now disapprove the policy
which her Majesty's Government have pursued in this
matter, but then we may be too late to correct many of the
errors which that policy involves. Their orders have gone
out to the other side of the world. They have been guided
by particular views in issuing those orders, and have taken
all their measures with reference to a possible war, so that
an event which might some time ago have been avoided if
the judgment of Parliament had been appealed to in due
course may now be inevitable. We are at the present
moment, for instance, far more deeply committed to France,
who is to act as our ally in this contest, than we were at no
very distant day. It is more difficult now than it was
some few months since to make any propositions of a con-
ciliatory kind to the Chinese Government with a chance of
their leading to amicable relations between the two coun-
tries. The very preparations for war which both we and
they have made diminish the chances of such a policy
being attended with success. I have now, contrary I
think, made out my case. It is, then, I repeat, to
the rules and practice of Parliament that any Government
should presume to take upon itself, without the sanction of
the Legislature, to make preparations, as has been done in
this instance, for what may turn out to be a frightfully
disastrous contest. (Hear, hear.) No merely theoretical,
but a practical and substantial injury has, I contend, been
done to the country by so great a departure from the esta-
blished law of the constitution. (Hear, hear.) If, there-
fore, we agree to the Address in answer to the Speech from
the Throne in the form in which it now stands, thanking
her Majesty for the information which she has communi-
cated to us upon this important subject, without saying
one word as to the time at which that communica-
tion happens to have been made, we by clear implication
admit that the point is one with respect to which we have
no fault to find. It is, therefore, my object,
.in framing the
amendment which I am now about to submit to your lord-
thips' consideration, to take notice of the irregularity of
which I complain in terms the most temperate which I am
able to devise. I may 'add that if any noble lord should
suggest to me terms still milder by which the views which
I entertain upon this subject could be adequately expressed,
I shall be most happy to act upon the suggestion. My sole
object-in proposing this amendment at all is to prevent the
pernicious proceeding to which I advert from being drawn
into a precedent. Bear in mind, my lords, that the law of
Parliament is an unwritten law—that it rests on custom and
usage. Every bad precedent which you set up in opposi-
tion to it may tend to break down a wholesome constitu-
tional check. I am of opinion that this house was greatly
to blame in omitting to notice the irregularity which oc-
curred in connection with the declaration of the war with
Persia. We see in what has since taken 'place the conse-
quence of the course which was then pursued. If we pass
over with similar neglect a similar irregularity, we shall
have gone far to establish a rule which may supersede the
old law of Parliament; so that in future any man could
hardly complain with justice of a Minister who during the
Parliamentary recess should take measures and pledge the
country to a policy, owing to which we may find ourselves,
when the Legislature assembled, hopelessly involved in a
great European war. (Hear, hear.) These, my lords, are the
considerations upon which I venture to submit to your notice
the amendment which I am about to propose, and which, I
trust, your lordshipiwill sanction. (Cheers.) To the words
in the Address thanking her Majesty for the information
which she has been graciously pleased to communicate to us
with respect to the conflict at the mouth of the Peiho, and
the measures which she proposes to take in co-operation
with the Emperor of the Faench to obtain redress for what
there took place, and to secure the fulfilment of the treaty
of Tien-sin, I beg to addthe following words :—"But humbly
to express to her Majesty our regret that when the prepa-
rations for the intended expedition were commenced her
Majesty's servants did not advise her Majesty to communi-
cate to Parliament, without delay, the measures decided
upon by them, in order that Parliament might have an op-
portunity of forming a judgment thereon, and that its pre-
vious sanction might be obtained to the expenses it might
occasion." (Hear, hear.)
The LORD CHANCELLOR having put the question,
The Duke of NEWCASTLE rose and said,—l greatly
regret, my lords, that the noble earl who has just spoken
has found it to be inconsistent with his duty to allow the
address of your lordships' house to proceed to her Majesty
without having proposed his amendment. The practice—
the very wholesome practice, in my opinion—has of late
grown up in the proceedings of the Legislature of never
moving an amendment to the Address to the Sovereign in
answer to the Royal Message at the commencement of the
session, unless some great party objects were sought to be
attained, or unless some very flagrant assertions were made
in that Address to which the opposition found it impossible
to assent. Now, the practice to which I allude has, I believe,
prevailed in recent times, mainly because it has been the
custom of Ministers, no matter to what party they may be-
long, to abstain from introducing into the Speech of the
Sovereign, so far as it may lie in their power, any topic or
phrase which might be likely to produce discord in the de-
liberations of the Legislature on the first evening of the
session. And, indeed, my noble friend the mover of the
amendment now under our notice expressly stated' in the
course of his speech that he is perfectly aware that her Ma-
jesty's Governmenthave studiously avoided the employment
of any such words in the Royal Message as were very fairly
used by the noble lord who seconded the Address in com-
menting on the proceedings which have taken place in
China. As, however, my noble friend has felt himself called
upon to move this amendment, it becomes my duty, on the
part of the Government, to make some observations, not,
only upon the amendment itself, but upon the arguments by
which it has been supported. But before I proceed to do
so I hope the house will allow me tc say a few words in re-
ference to another topic which is mentioned in the Royal
Speech, and upon which the noble earl has commented un-
favourably—l mean the treaty of commerce with France.
I am sure your lordships will not expect that any member
of the Government should at this moment, when the treaty
was only signed yesterday, and there has been no opportu-
nity of laying it before the house, enter into any discussion
of its details or attempt any hypothetical defence of the
transaction itself. But I at once concur in my noble friend's
observations as to the impolicy of commercial treaties gene-
rally. I readily admit a commercial treaty, as the term
was understood in years gone by, to be at variance with the
soundest principles of free trade, and that nothing but pe-
culiar circumstances can justify on our part in these days
a treaty of that nature. I am, however, firmly convinced
that when this treaty is laid before Parliament, and when
your lordships come to consider the circumstances under
which it has been proposed by one country and accepted
by the other, you will be of opinion thet the proceeding
was a justifiable one, to which you can give your approval.
(Hear.) Without entering into details, I will only put it
to the house and to my noble friend whether a measure
which is not absolutely contradictory to the principles of
free trade may not be justifiable as a means of cementing
the union of two countries like England and France ; whe-
ther there can be any stronger or more reliable bond of
union than an extension of the commerce between those
countries, which, considering their enormous wealth, has
been hitherto of a restricted nature. We may make bar-
gains 01 engagements with Emperors or Presidents, but
they may be broken by those potentates. An extension
of commerce, on the other hand, forms a binding engage-
ment between the people of two countries, and I be-
lieve, in proportion to its extent, will make war be-
tween them less likely, if not Impossible. (Hear,
hear.) I am unwilling to trouble your lordships now fur-
ther upon this point, but the amendment proposed by
my noble friend requires me to notice some of his argu-
ments. He started from an assumption that it was the
established rule and practice to lay before Parliament an
announcement of the intention of the Sovereign to com-
mence hostilities with a foreign nation. I am surprised
that my noble friend should have framed his proposition
upon so broad a basis, for I believe writers upon international
law have greatly differed upon the subject; but surely my
noble friend does not forget that, notwithstanding the
examples of 1790 and 1826, to which he has referred, the
n friendu rule
saying
shcadhkte
hpehasaetr
departed
i dalthoughhfregardseroadm, a
buts during
ah ina b
et
lletlhiestablishedeevdee last
describes
imabt e
years.rus
Iml
aemahy has been re-
peatedlyii
haveMo t noblevbr
oene
been
the established rule in cases of hostilities with European
nations, yet there are few, if any, instances where it has
been adhered to in cases of hostilities with eastern nations.
The noble earl must admit that it has not even the
univerral rule with regard to European instances, for he
cannot have forgotten the cases of Portugal in 1831, and of
Greece at a subsequent period, not to mention other in-
stances. My noble friend has said that he hopes the Govern-
ment will not attempt to set up as their defence the fact
that Parliament was not sitting, nor the argument that
they had sufficient funds resulting from the votes of Par-
liament for other purposes to enable them to carry on hos-
tilities. As to the last-mentioned defence, I certainly shall
not have recourse to it ;but the other ground—that Parlia-
ment was not sitting at the time—l consider to be an im-
portant and justifiable defence of the conduct of the Govern-
ment. (Hear.) In the two cases which have been quoted
by my noble friend, in 1790 and 1826, it happened that both
occurred while Parliament was sitting. Surely, there is a
great difference between the Sovereign communicating
to Parliament the state of affairs with regard to foreign
countries and his summoning Parliament together specially,
to consult it upon an event which might never occur. How-
ever, it is not necessary to rely upon that for a defence in
the present instance,fer my noble friend has based his argu-
ment upon the supposition that we are about to commence
war et ith a nation with whom we were previously at peace.
(Hear, hear.) I say that is not the case here. We are not
commencing new hostilities with China ; we have never
been at peace with China for the last two years, and at the
very moment when the transactions in question occurred
we had possession, and still retain, one of the most impor-
tant towns of the Chinese empire. Surely that could not
be called a state of peace ? (Hear.) A treaty, no doubt, was
negotiated by my noble friend near me (Lord Elgin) which
Mr. Bruce was proceeding to Pekin to ratify, but it could
not be a treaty of peace until it was ratified, and until that
ratification took place, we were not at peace with China.
.(Hear.) However, I shall not dwell upon this point at pre-
sent, for my noble friend himself has told us that there
must be many other occasions when the subject of this
Chinese war must be fully considered, but he has mentioned
me of his objections to that war which I will just notice..
My noble friend says we had no rie,lit.to attempt to pais up
the ' etho, and that we should have taken seine other route
than that
he,iatl tray
we considered to be the highway to the
fairly beforecan only y her Majesty's Government will be
oepntaerriiiaroetoontt_hat(hqueaers)t_ionand whewnielvleorniit3chsaay shall comenow
that we had everyo e
rigi
nhtts consider that river to be the pro-
perwh i
eh highway
may t
observe thati not the only highway, in proof of
clause in
s the Russian treaty, agreed to
in May last, there is a
to proceed to the capital of China the Russians a right
avi
either by their usual over. ,

land route, or by this very route of the Peiho, or by any
route. I believe, without any attempt at special pleading,
it might 'be shown that under the "fivoured nation" clause
of the treaty of 1343 we might insist upon this route, but I
do, not wish to urge it now, and only mention the last treaty,
with Russia to establish the fact that there was a determi-
nation on the part of the Emperor of China or his people
to treat the English nation differently from the Russians,
and to exclude us from a route which was allowed to
the latter nation by treaty only a month before. My
noble friend also indulged in some general phrases with
regard to the horrors of war. Now, I respect him for the
feelings which he entertains on all occasions on this sub-
ject, although I think that he sometimes allows those
feelings to carry him too far. But, will my noble friend
maintain for one instant that if the honour of the country is
involved we ought to consider whether we may to a certain
extent be endangering our commerce, and whether, by car-
rying on hostilities with China, we may not injure the tea
trade 2 (Hear, hear.) Those are no doubt important consi-
derations in themselves, but when the country has been
outraged by attacks upon its forces, in which 400 or 500
Englishmen were struck down, I cannot think that my noble
friend, having, as I know he has, the honour of his country
at heart, would urge that then, being smitten on the one
cheek, we should turn the other to be smitten also. (Hear,
hear.) If, then, my lords, it can bo shown that we are
bound to prepare this fleet and army, for the purpose of
vindicating thenational honour and of obtaining reparation
for the injuries inflicted upon us, providing it can be ob-
tained in no other way, I think that on a future occasion,
when this subject comes to be discussed, I may claim the
vote of my noble friend himself, in common with the rest of
your lordships. That we are bound to take such a course, to
uphold our honour as a nation, I firmly believe; but I will
not enter into the question now, and am only sorry that my
noble friend has forced me on to say so much. Her Majesty
has announced that papers will be laid before Parliament,
and when those are forthcoming we shall be enabled to un-
derstand and to discuss this subject much better. (Hear.)
As to the point which forms the basis of my noble friend's
amendment—that the Ministry have committed an act of
disloyalty to Parliament by not laying before them their in-
tentions respecting China—l repeat that this is not an esta-
blished rule, though it may be a convenient one ; and, even
if it were an established rule, I maintain that in tho instance
before us it has not been violated, because we have not been
at peace with China, and had nothing, therefore, to com-
municate. All we could have informed Parliament of was
hat the treaty with China had not been ratified, and that
he war was therefore continuing. But were we to call Par-

liament together in order to make such an announcement
I do not inter d to enter now into the other topics of my noble
friend's speech, but I cannot help thinking, in conclusion,
that your lordships will nob agree with him on the issue he
has raised, and will not support his amendment. (Hear.)
The Marquis of NORMANBY said that he for one
agreed in the principles laid down by his noble friend (Earl
Grey) that it would be more in accordance with the usual
practice, and more for flip public interest, if the Govern-
ment had summoned Parliament on the subject of the war
in China. However, he would not enter on the present oc-
casion into any details on the question before their lord-
ships, as a more ample opportunity would soon arise for
discussing the whole question. At the same time he must
observe that he could not agree that, as a general prin-
ciple, no amendment ought to be moved to the Address
unless a great principle happened to be involved.
The Duke of NEWCASTLE said that what he had stated
was, " except when Ministers inserted words in the Speech
which it was impossible for the Opposition to agree to."
The Marquis of NORMANBY said it must not be for-
gotten that at thelast meeting of the Parliament an amend-
ment wa3 moved and carried which had a party purpose to
serve. He, however, agreed with the noble duke that it
would be right to postpone the details on the treaty of com-
merce with France to a future occasion, but the subject had
been forced upon them by the noble seconder of the Ad-
dress, who said it was a bar to future war. The master ma-
nufacturers of France hardly took the same view of the sub-
ject, if they were to rely upon the speech which they had
addressed to the Emperor respecting this matter. He had
that morning received a letter from a source on which he
could rely in which it was stated, "that armaments of all
kinds were still carried on inFrance in the fiercest manner
possible—that naval armaments wore continued as if they
were going to war next week. Ships were being built,
guns proved, and dockyards rang with the noise of warlike
preparation " This statement was at variance with
the universal peace hoped for by the noble lord opposite.
He complained that while the French tariff was not to be
altered until 1861, that of this country must commence im-
mediately, a step which involved of necessity the loss of con-
siderable revenue. With respect to the passage in the Speech
in allusion to the affairs of Italy—what was the meaning of
saying that no " external force" should be used to "impose
upon the people of Italy any particularform of government ?"
Why, the phrase was so vague and general that it could be
used by Mazzini himself. Now, he wished to ask a ques-
tion, often put by his noble and learned friend (Lord
Brougham), who were the people of Italy ? He must say
that to hint such a doctrine as that propounded by the pas-
sage he alluded to was novel, and a very striking one. Was
it to be put forward that if an insurrectionary or revolu-
tionary molement took place in any country and succeeded,
it established a right to change the government and depose
the sovereign ? Italy was composed of different states, go-
verned by different princes, and under different forms of
government ; its people differed in manners and habits, and
even in language, and in many respects cordially hated each
other. Now, which of these formed the Italian people ? It
did not appear to him that there was even the slightest
trouble, honestly taken, to ascertain the real feelings and
opinions of the people. The majority obtained was procured
by foreign Intrigue and by foreign gold distributed by foreign
agents ; and, in his opinion, if a proper mode were taken to
ascertain the voice of the majority of the peaplo, it would
be found that those who now held the governments were
vastly in a minority. But another thing which surprised
him was, that England appeared to recognise those pro-
' visional Governments. Now he remembered that when in
1848 Lombardy was annexed to Sardinia, positive orders
were given to the British representative in Milan not to
recognise such annexation by any public act whatever ;
and most assuredly his own instructions in Paris were not
to recognise any provisional government. He knew not
how the people of Lombardy liked the changes recently
made ; but he had it on the best authority, that the
Milanese were now taxed 15 per cent. higher than when
they were under the dominion of Austria. Her Majesty,
he thought, should have been advised to express herself in
clearer terms when speaking of the Italian question. If
any change were to be made, he thought means should be
had recourse to for the purpose of ascertaining the feelings
and opinions of the Italian people. For the last seven or
eight months they were subjected to bribery of the most
odious description; riedmontese gold had been used in a
most extensive manner, and if any changes were to take
place at all, they ought to have ascertained the legitimate
feelings of the people. As regarded Tuscany, he was firmly
convinced, and had it on the highest authority, that the
great majority of that country were opposed to any annexa-
tion with Sardinia. But England ought to take care that
her own interests wore not injured by those changes. He
had received a letter from a Tuscan gentleman, who in-
formed him that the old system of putting an ad valorem
duty on foreign goods imported there was entirelyabolished
and an enormous additional tax put on each separate artiole.
See what an effect such a system as that must naturally
have on the exportation of British goods and manufactures
into the States of Italy. But, then, it was said that the
liberal Governments now in existence were the promoters
of liberty. Well, if that be so, they had a very odd way of
showing it, for the rigours of imprisonment were now
greater than on any former occasion. A gentleman named
Montelli had been quietly living in England, but on these
changes taking place he went to Florence, where, in ac-
cordance with the custom now prevailing, all letters passing
through the Post office were opened, and subject to an exa-
mination. A letter had been sent to poor. Signor Montelli,
which was found to contain what was considered a doubt-
ful phrase, and he was immediately followed to Leghorn,
brought back to Florence, and thrown - into prison.
That he considered to be rather harsh treatment on
the part of a liberal Government. This gentleman
was subsequently set at liberty, and although
he published the particulars, and complained of
the unjust treatment he received, not one word of it ap-
peared in any English newspaper. Last year he (the Mar-
quis of Normanby) stated in that house that the Grand
Duke Ferdinand of Tuscany never gave any orders, as had
been stated, to the garrison of Florence to fire on the town.
He was contradicted in that assertion by an individual who
now, it appears, was in prison, and who had stated since
that the allegations he put forward as a contradiction were
entirely false. (Hear.) His grace went at considerable
length into an exposition of his general views upon the sub-
ject, but in a tone of voice which prevented his being heard
in the gallery. He was understood to urge the Govern-
ment to be consistent, and to sympathise with aspirations
in the lonian Islands which they so cordially sympathised
with in Italy.
Lord BROUGHAM, who was for some minutes inaudi-
ble, said he had always lamented the divisions of Italy. In
conversing with the Unitarian party in Italy, he had
always lamented that Italy had hitherto been rather a
geographical than a political name ; that from all time,
from the time of Dante downwards, there had been animo-
sity and divisions, not only between neighbouring States,
but even between one city and town and another, so little
did the Italians deserve the name of a united people. It
was deeply to be lamented; but there seemed no help for
it. There seemed no chance by means of war, by the as-
sistance of Sardinia against Austria, or by any other means,
of their obtaining union among themselves, and in the great
body of the nation. But times have changed, and the for-
tunes of nations change with events. When the Italian
war was discussed he had expressed his opinion of the
objects of both the parties to it. Of France he would
now say nothing—either as to the time it commenced
the war or the reasons for commencing it. As to Sar-
dinia, and the reasons it had put forward for engaging
in a war with Auttria, he had expressed more than
doubts—his suspicions—that the war for the liberation
of Italy was entered into to obtain for Sardinia a
part of the Austrian dominions. Of the Italian war he had
expressed the reprobation which he might almost say was
the feeling-of every one in this country. In that war
England had no share. England did all in, her power
to prevent the war ; she did all in her power to
induce Austria to join in negotiations that would
have prevented hostilities. Unhappily, Austria would
not yield to those recommendations, but wont on in
her own course. In the war that ensued the defeat of
Austria was complete. From the beginning to the end of it
there was not a single battle in which the armies of Austria
were not defeated. There was not a single action in which
Sardinia and her ally were not entirely successful. And
after a fearful amount of slaughter, after the greatest pos-
sible misery had been inflicted on the north of Italy, the
result was that Austria was driven from the greater part of
her dominions. The treaty of Villafanca accomplished
nearly the whole object Sardinia had in commencing the
war. She virtually obtained the greater part of the terri-
tory of Austria, the whole of Lombardy, all but Venetia.
Such was the result of this short and successful campaign.
Then came a totally new state of things. Italy that
never before succeeded in uniting itself under one '

Government was at last free from foreign domination.
And all that England could now wish was that foreign in-
terference with Italy should be prevented ; that the Italians
should be left to themselves to fight their own battles, to
form their own Government, and choose,what ruler they
thought fit, provided they did it without Austrian, French,
or any other interference. He had yet to learn why several
different Italian States should not secure their own freedom
without the interference of the foreigner, the Modenese as-
sisting the Tuscans, and the Tuscans assisting the people of
Parma. No one was originally more opposed than he was
to the treaties of Vienna in 1814-15. He condemned them
over and over again, but after they became as it were the
statute law of Europe it was in vain to argue against them.
When Charles Albert attacked Austria we objected to his
conduct, because it was calculated to disturb the distribu-
tion of kingdoms which had been effected in 1815. That
attack failed, but it had since been repeated, and had been
signally successful—a result due not to want of valour on
the part of the soldiers of Austria, but to the errors of her
councils, which were as great as those of the Aulic Coun-
cil, which marshalled the way to the victories of the First
Napoleon, and to the incapacity of her generais, each of
whom showed himself to be almost more unit for command
than his predecessor. It was to be hoped that the struggle
would be succeeded by a settlement in which regard would
be had to the relative force of the parties engaged in the
contest, but in which deference would also be paid to what
was just and fair. He would not say what were his hopes
and expectations, but he was not without faith that; the
victors would act with justice and moderation. (Hear, hear.)
His noble friend had alluded to the expected treaty of com-
merce between this country and France. He had an old
prejudice against commercial treaties which was not wholly
without effect in the present instance, but, nevertheless, he
had less objection to this treaty than to almost any other
that he remembered ; and he was quite convinced that the
greatest possible advantage would result to France from the
commercial policy which the Emperor had announced his
intention to pursue. In France he had heard that all the
benefits of the treaty would fall to England, and that the
former country would derive but little advantage from its
operation. He would not go the length of saying that it
was a treaty wholly for the benefit of France, but he was
quite clear that our gain from its operation, would be as no-
thing compared with hers. Our gair was to be postponed
for 18 months ; our neighbours' would be immediate. Ou'r
gain would be to a very small extent ; theirs to a very large
one. The outcry against the treaty reminded him of what
had frequently occurred in this country. No step was over
taken in the direction of free trade, or of the removal of re-
strictions, that a clamour was not immediately raised by
some party which, though numerically large, was not so in
comparison with the rest of the community, but the mem-
bers of which made up for their want of numbers by the vio-
lence with which they strained their throats ; so that, to
listen to them, any one would have thought that all Eng-
land was against the measure. Probably the most exten-
sive,—in deference to some of his noble friends he would not
say clamour—he could hardly call it argument or declama-
tion,—but the most extensive utterance was that against the
repeal of the corn laws; and yet we had lived to see the day
when a real genuine Protectionist could only find his proper
place in one of our museums, among the relics of the an-
cient world, or the specimens of extinct animals. (Loud
laughter.) Tranquillity now prevailed all over the Conti-
nent. The liberal policy now inaugurated by the French
Government would tend to confirm and consolidate that
peace. But, he had been asked in Paris, " If that be so,
why do you go on arming ?" In answer to that question
he would remind his French friends of a proverb of their
own :—" When it is fair weather, be sure to take your cloak
with you ; when it is four weather, do as you please." At
present all was peace. The storm had ceased, the wind no
longer blew, the thunder, if it rolled at all, rolled at a dis-
tance, and the lightning was but sheet lightning, that
flashed innocuous through the sky. That being so, let us
prepare for all exigencies. We lived in an armed world.
There were prodigious armies all around us ; armies of
500,000 men in one country, of 300,000 or 400,000 men in
another; besides naval armaments, which were being in-
creased, as they are told, in the time of peace. Who, more-
over, could answer for the chapter of accidents, or predict
what state of things might exist six years—aye, or six
months hence ? It was, therefore, absolutely necessary that
we should be armed—he would not say to the teeth—but suffi-
ciently to make all attack upon us not only impossible to suc-
ceed, but impossible to be attempted. (Cheers.) He had been
in the north of England since Parliament was last prorogued.
He there found that one question which once used to excite a
very livelyinterest was dead—dead even in Yorkshire. He
had taken the liberty while among his old- friends in that
county to chide them, and to chide them pretty severely,
for the share they had in electoral corruption, some of the
very worst cases of that kind haring occurred in that quar-
ter. He was zealously and constantlysupported in all his re-
ferences to that topio by those whom he had addressed, and
they showed themselves as stoutly determined to put down
by all possible meansthat curseof our representative system
as he could wished to have seen them. But the subject on
which of all others there was the greatest earnestness and
enthusiasm as well as the most perfect unanimity in those
assemblages was the defence of the country. Everywhere
there was the most entire agreement as to the necessity, at
all costs, at all pains, and all risks, of putting the country
by every means which human wisdom could devise and hu-
man activity employ on a footing of perfect and absolute
security. (Cheers.)
The Marquis of NORMANBYoffered a few words in ex-
planation relative to the influence of Sardinia in the settle-
ment of the Italian question, but his observations were
made in too indistinct a tone to be intelligible in the gallery.
The Earl of DERBY—My lords, I do not recollect any
occasion on which a speech from the Throne, touching on
such a variety of important topics, was treated in debate
with greater silence by her Majesty's Ministers than we
have seen observed by them in this instance. The noble
mover and seconder of the address, no doubt, made very ex-
cellent speeches; but, unfortunately, I was unable, from
the tone of voice in which they spoke, to hear mere than a
word here and there of the one, and not a syllable of the
other. (A laugh.) And, notwithstanding the great va-
riety and importance of the subjects adverted to in her Ma-
jesty's Speech, we have heard from her Majesty's Minis-
ters not one single word in the course of this discussion
except the few remarks whieh fell from the noble duke op
posite in reply to the amendment moved with great ability
by the noble earl. Of many of the topics referred to in the
Queen's Speech no notice whatever has been taken by any
preceding speaker; and I am not going, more than by a
single word, to deviate from the course which others have
followed. Even on those subjects to which our attention-
has been called, and on which I shall have to make a few
observations, I trust I shall be able to confine myself within
very moderate limits ; for, as far as this discussion has gone,
there does not seem to be any very serious difference
of opinion between those who sit on different sides of this
house. Certainly, among the great variety of topics which
have been entirely passed over, I am not surprised that no
notice should have been taken of the treaty concluded with
the Tycoon of Japan— (a laugh)—or of the treatyregarding
boundaries which has been entered into with the Republic
of Guatemala—a very important subject, nevertheless, and
one likely to have a very important influence on the serious
questions pending between this country and the United
States. I do not suppose that both of those treaties are
alluded to because they were begun by the predecessors of
her Majesty's present Government, but because the ratifi-
cations have been exchanged since the present Ministry
came into office. But I certainly thought it probable that
greater attention would have been paid in the course of this
debate to proceedings which at one time threatened to lead
to very grave eonsequences,—consequences which, how-
ever, have been averted—as is most truly stated in the
Speech—by the judicious forbearance and admirable be-
haviour of the naval and civil (dicers of her Britannic Ma-
jesty in the neighbourhood of Vancouver's Island. I must
also do justice to the conciliatory spirit in which the repre-
sentations of onr Government were met by the Government
of the United States ; and I can only concur in the earnest
hope that the questions out of which this difference has
arisen " may be amicably settled, in a manner conformable
with the just rights of the two countries." There is, my
lords, another subject with regard to which I have listened
to the remarks made to night with unfeigned astonishment.
Up to the present moment I certainly did expect to hear,
even in your lordships', house, some more complimentary
mention than has yet been made of the question of Parlia-
mentary reform—(a laugh—but since the commencement of
this debate the only hint we have had that this subject is
under consideration, or has ever been discussed, fell from
my noble and learned friend who has just sat down, and who
emphatically assured us that from one end to the other of
an important district, where there used to be a pretty en.
tensive reforming element—as the noble and learned lord in
former days had reason to know—he did net find a person
who cared one fartheng about reform;. (Laughter.) I had
certainly thought that the zeal and enthusiasm on that ques-.
tion was not quite so great as has been represented, and I
have seen hints tending to throw a wet blanket over it ema-
nating from cinarters of great eminence ; but I was not pre-
pared for the sweeping and unqualified statement of the
noble and learned lord as to the public indifference in respect
to a subject which her Majesty has recommended more than
once to the careful consideration of her Parliament. (A
laugh.) I can only say that if Parliament proceeds to con-
sider the question in the same cool and dispassionate spirit
with which the pecplo of Yorkshire and Lancashire treat it,
there is little apprehension of any very serious danger to the
constitution, or of any very revolutionary principle being in-
troduced into the bill of the Government. (Laughter.)
Now, having just touched on some points to which no at-
tention has been called, there aro others on which I am
sure but one feelie g 'LILA pervade all classes of her Majesty's
subjects, and that is a feeling at universal satisfaction and
gratitude to Providence for the happy prospects which her
Majesty is able to hold forth in the Speech from the Throne.
I am sure all must deeply rejoice when her Majesty states
that " the great interests of the country are generally in a
thriving condition, that pauperism and crime have dimi-
nished, and that throughout the whole of my empire, both
in the United Kingdom and in my colonies and possessions
beyond sea, there reigns a spirit of loyalty, of contentment,
of order, and of obedience to the law." I say, every one
must rejoice to hear such language from the Throne, and
more especially as I believe in my conscience, with the ex-
ception of an ebullition of some alio animated Irish feeling
—(a laugh)—the statement may be taken to be tolerably
correct. No one, I repeat, can hear such a statement, which
her Majesty was justified in making to Parliament, without
the most lively satisfaction and gratitude. Nor is it a less
gratifying subject for congratulation that by a mixture of
firmness and humanity, by listening to the dictates of justice
and policy, as well as by the combined devotion and energy
of ourtroops, an en/ has not only been put to that formidable
insurrection which so long disturbed our Indian empire, but
there exists a reasonable expectation that the restoration of
peace will be followed by good and friendly feeling between
the Government and the native princes and the increasing
prosperity and welfare of her Majesty's subjects in India.
I cannot but rejoice to think that these happy results have
been materially assisted by the adoption of the spirit of a
proclamation which her Majesty was advised to issue, of a
policy at once just, generous, and conciliatory, and dealing,
more especially with the inhabitants of Oude, in a temper

and manner in accordance with that recommended by my !'
noble friend (Lord Ellenborough), who then filled the
office of President of the Board of Control. (Hear, hear.)
It is due to Lord Canning to say that in his dealings with
the talookdars of Oude ho has combined with justice a wise
and well considered policy ; more especially, by his regard
for territorial rights, he has done more to re-establish and
maintain an empire in that part of India than could have
been effected by all the measures of repression which Go-
vernment could devise. (Cheers.) There is one other sub-
ject of congratulation. I cannot but rejoice that her Ma-
jesty has been advised to express in the Speech from the
Throne the gratification and pride with which she has re•
ceived such extensive offers of voluntary service from her
people. I think that expression was due to the spirit of
loyalty and patriotism which has been manifested by all
ranks and classes in the country in defence of her Majesty's
Crown. (Applause.) I trust in God that the service of my
countrymen will never be required, for there is only one oc-
casion on which such service can be rendered ; but at the
same time that does not diminish the merit duo to the spirit
in which they have come forward or diminish the value of
the service they have thus rendered by lits tender under
present circumstances—(applause) ; for I am perfectly cer-
tain that, with regard to our influence abroad, as well as
our security at home, nothing could produce a gteater or
more powerful effect than the spontaneous, universal burst
of patriotic devotion,' which has shown that, with all our
commercial anxieties and rivalries, they will not for a single
moment be put in the scale in comparison with that loyal
determination which has been shown by almost every man
and youth in the country at the horrible prospect of inva-
sion, from whatever quarter it may come. (Applause.)
There are three topics, and only three, on which comments
have been made in this discussion, and to which I would
now allude. They are all of them most extensive and im-
portant ; far too important and extensive for me to do more
than allude to them in this discussion. Tho first of these
questions is the commercial treaty, with regard to which it
is rather singular that her Majesty's Speech has not been
able to furnish us with the latest information. (A laugh.) Her
Majesty's Speech says :—" I am in communication with the
Emperor of the French, with a view to extend the com-
mercial intercourse between the two countries, and thus to
draw still closer the bonds of friendly alliance between
them." The fact, I believe, is that at the time we are
speaking the treaty to which her Majesty thus vaguely
refers as the result of these communications has actually
been signed at F aris. (Cheers and a laugh.) Among the
few words I was able to collect from the noble lord who se-
conded the Address was an expression which I regard in a
somewhat different sense from that in which he used it.
The noble seconder of the Address said, he hardly knew in
what terms to express his gratitude for the reductions in
the tariff announced in her Majesty's speech. (A laugh
from the Opposition.) Now, I hardly know in what terms
to express my gratification, but for a different reason, be-
cause I really do not know what the reductions are—(a
laugh)—or what is to be the extent of the sacrifices we are
to be called on to make for these advantages. Being wholly
unknown to me, I am unable, in adequate terms, to describe
them ; but I must confess that so far as I do know them I
do not-consider them a matter for unmixed congratulation.
(Hear, hear.) I have my doubts whether the peculiar time
at which this treaty is signed, as being well calculated on
by the Government and their friends [across the water, is
likely to produce a very favourable impression on the
public mind ; and all I can hope is, that the public mind
in England will be well informed as to the fact before con-
clusions are formed as the advantages to be received from
it. (Applause.) I don't hesitate for a single moment to
say, that the extension of a commercial intercourse between

thlii country and France is an object of the gi eatest national
importance—(hear, hear)—and I should rejoice to see any
opportunity taken for legitimately extending that trade, be •
lieving as I do that the extension of commercial inter-
course, theugh it cannot be a preventive against war
between the two countries, must always exercise a great
moral influence in indisposing both Frenchmen and the
people in this country unnecessarily or rashly to enter into
a war, and more especially as our commerce with France
has certainly been much more restricted than might be
desired or expected, considering the relative position
of these countries and their means of supplying
each ether with the articles they respectively re-
quire. I sincerely and cordially rejoice in anything to
extend the commercial intercourse between this country and
France ; but with regard to the terms on which this treaty
proceeds and the mode in which the Government have
come to it I must forbear expressing, nay, I must postpone
even the formation of an opinion until I know more about
it. (Cheers.) The noble earl who moved the amendment
discussed this subject with his usual ability and freedom.
He laid down most distinctly and clearly the principles of
free trade as he understands them, and no doubt he most
accurately and most properly laid them down. He also drew
a broad, clear, intelligible distinction between the principles
of free trade, as he contended for them, and the principles of
the extension of commercial intercourse through the medium
of treaties of reciprocity or commercial treaties of any kind.
I am not about to enter on a discussion of the abstract merits
of the main question. I do not at all dispute the proposition
laid down by the noble earl, that it is for the advantage of
any country to make such reduction of duties as shall, con-
sistently with its general interests and the purposes of re-
venue, enable its population to obtain articles of primary
necessity on easy terms irrespective altogether of corre-
sponding reductions in the tariff of foreign countries as af-
fecting its manufactures. But, on the other hand, lam not
prepared to say that there may not be occasions, and many
occasions, too, on which you may obtain essential advan-
tages for your own country on condition of conferring simi-
lar advantages on the manufactures of other countries, and
consequently the conferring of these advantages on the ma-
nufactures of other countries may be made a most power-
ful instrument in your hand for obtaining reciprocal advan-
tages from other countries. (Hear, hear.) But it appears to
me that the Government has pursued a most extraordinary
course on this subject, because the noble lords opposite.
condemning the principle of reciprocity and commercial
treaties altogether, now enter into a commercial treaty giv-
ing advant ages on one side in consideration of advantages
on another. And when do they do it ? At a time when no
step whatever is taken by the country seeking these advan-
tages from us, and when we have made almost every con-
cession to the commerce of France it is possible for us to
make. (Hear, hear.) We first of all give away freely almost
all we have to give, and having given away everything we
then go to barter on the principle of commercial recipro-
city, which they all along condemn. (Hear.) They fret give
away almost all they have, and then deal with their custo-
mers on the principle of exchange. I don't know, I have no
means of knowing, what advantages we are to obtain, or
what sacrifices we are to make; but, with regard to this
treaty, if I am rightly informed, the conditions in the first
place, as stated to-night, and not denied on the other side,
are that on the one side the advantages we are to give are
to come into operation immediately, whereas the reductions
to be granted on the other side are not to come into opera-
tion for a period of 18 months. I pass by the question that
the articles which are about to be admit'ed into France at a
lower rate of duty than is at present the case are those very
articles which are of vital importance to her, more especially
for warlike purposes, and shall content myself by simply
observing that among the manufactures which she will un-
derthe operation of the treaty take from us—if, indeed, the
term manufactures is applicable to them at all—are those
very articles which require the least amount oZ skill and
labour to be applied in their adaptation to use; whereas the
article which we shall receive from France is a staple com-
modity of that country, the production of which involves
the longest industrial occupation in which the French people
are engaged. (Hear, hear.) But if there be objections upon
general grounds to the principle of a commercial treaty, I
think those objections acouire considerably increased force
in the case of a treaty such as that of which I am speaking,
regulating, as it does, the precise amount of duty to be paid
on certain articles; and if ever there was a time when the
Government of this country ought to be cautious in commit-
ting itself to the reduction of a duty which now produces a
revenue of nearly £2,ooo,ooo—the exact sum, I believe, is
£1,800,000 and odd pounds—that time is surely the present,
when, in connection with the loss of revenue thus created,

the enormous demands which, in all probability, musttbe
made upon the country for objects the most vital and neces-
sary ought to be taken into cansideration. (Hear.) It is,
therefore, my lords, that I cannot help regarding it as, un-
der those circumstances, a most unfortunate policy to bind
yourself to a large reduction of duty on an article of simple
luxury- by entering into a treaty by which, supposing it
should not answer your expectations in a financial point of
view, you would still be bound, and without the power of re-
tracing your steps. (Hear.) Recollect that we are at this
moment on a friendly footing with France. The language
contained in the speech from the throne is, nevertheless,
significant. It contains nothing of the ordinary phrase-
ology about a "due regard to economy." It, on the
contrary, informs us that " the estimates have been
prepared with a view to place the military and naval
services and the defences of the country upon an
efficient footing." 'Well, my lords, that is no doubt a most
admirable and necessary object, but it is an object the
attainment of which will, I apprehend, render it diffi-
cult to effect any diminution of taxation. It is, indeed, far
more probable that the taxation of the country must, as a
consequence, undergo a considerable increase. Bear in
mind that the income-tax was to have expired in the course
of the present year. No man, however, now entertains a
hope that such will be the case. The tax will have to
be reimposed by the very Chancellor of the Exchequer
who made it a sine qua non that in 1860 it should die a
natural death. (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) Bear in mind
also that if you reduce the duty on wines you are guilty of
a gross injustice to the great bulk of your countrymen in
maintaining the duty on malt and upon hops. (Hear, hear.)
Recollect that the use of theso two articles is likely to un-
dergo diminution in proportion to the extent to which
French wines are consumed. (Hear, hear.) You are,
therefore, in reducing the duty on wine, exposing your-
seives to the risk of a double loss—the loss which would
arise from the fact that the increased consumption of the
one article would not be equal to the fallity, off in that of
the others which I have just mentioned, and also tho addi-
tional loss that must accrue, if you mean to deal with any
degree of justice in the matter, by the reduction of the duty
on malt and that upon hops. (Hear, hear.) Her Majesty's
Government, moreover, have not, I hope, forgotten that
the war duties upon tea and sugar are at present in force.
(Hear, hear.) Are there, let me ask, any articles of con-
sumption on which it is more desirable that the duties im-
posed should be at the earliest possible period reduced ?
(Hoar, hear.) I shall be surprised, indeed, but not more
surprised than gratified, to learn that simultaneously
with the reduction of the duties on wine her Majesty's
Government find themselves in a position to diminish
also the duties upon tea and sugar; but to reduce all those
duties, or to take off any considerable amount of income-
tax, is impossible without having recourse to the imposition
of other taxes to supply their places, and it is expedient,
I think, that the imposition of those new taxes should ob-
tain the sanction of Parliament before we give our assent
to the treaty in question. (Hear, hear.) Upon this sub-
ject, therefore, I can only say that while I concur in the
policy of extending trade by all legitimate means, I am not
prepared to maintain that thi- treaty of commerce is one
which affords matter for congratulation to the people of this
country, or one which they can with advantage accept;
and I think it not improbable that, unless some explanation
of the treaty very different from any which we have already
heard be furnished by her Majesty's Government, they will
be very much disappointed in their expectations as to the
effect which it is calculated to have on the public mind.
(Hear, hear.) I now proceed to the consideration of the
question in connexion with which an amendment to the
Address has been moved by the noble lord opposite (Earl
Grey). I allude to the unfortunate occurrences which have
recently taken place in China. It is not, however, my in-
tention to touch oven in the slightest degree upon the merits
or demerits of the policy which has led to our present posi-
tion in that country. I am quite aware that.great allowances
must be made in judging of the conduct of any public ser-
vant who happens to be placed in a situation of so much
difficulty and embarrassment as was the case with our offi-
cers in China, and who, under delicate circumstances, the

nature of which he could not foresee, is called upon to rely
entirely on his own resources and his own discretion.
(Uear, hear.) Such allowance must, I think, be made for
Mr. Bruce in dealing with the question of the policy of
forcing the passage of the Peiho. (Hear, hear.) It is at
the same time duo to my noble friend near me (Lord
Malmesbury), who held the seals of the Foreign-office un-
der the late Administration, to state that, although he
allowed Mr. Bruce a large latitude—a latitude which was
in my opinion most properly continued to him, and the
continuance of which was amply justified by the manner
in which he discharged the important duties which de-
volved upon him—yet neither my noble friend nor the
Government of which he was a member could contem-
plate the occurrence of such a state of things as Mr.
Bruce found upon his arrival in China, while the course
which he pursued is certainly not capable of being jus-
tified by the instructions which he received at our
hands. Whether it is capable of justification on other
grounds I am not in a position to say. A grave question in
connexion with this point has been raised by the noble earl
who moved the amendment. It is one, too, I am bound to
say, which it is not easy to answer in the affirmative. That
question is, whether all the blame of those unfortunate
transactions which occurred at the mouth of the Peiho is to
be thrown entirely upon the Chinese, and whether we our •
selves are exempt from all charge of precipitation and im-
prudence in connexion with the matter ? The point is one
which I do not now wish to discuss. We shall, in all pro-
bability, have at no distant day fuller information and more
ample means to enable us to do justice to a subject so im-
portant and of such great extent. There is, however, one
topic in connexion with it which I must not pass over on
the present occasion. It is a topie which I am sorry to find
has not received publicly whatever may be the case pri-
vately, that attention which it seems to me to deserve. I
now allude to the heroic conduct which was displayed by the
Admiral and the seamen who were engaged in the conflict
which took place at the mouth of the Peiho. (Cheers.) In
referring to that conduct your lordships will, I am sure,
concur with me in the justice of the sentiment that the meed
of praise and honour is not to be the meed of success alone.
(Hear, hear.) I may add, that unsuccessful though this
, unfortunate expedition to the north of Peiho may have
been, I know of no other in which the daring gallantry and
perseverance of British seamen and British troops have ever
been more signally exhibited than in that unhappy encoun-
ter. (Cheers.) I feel assured, too, that those brave men
who have suffered so severely in person and in mind from
the failure of their expedition will have justice done them by
their fellow-countrymen, who, whatever they may think
of the policy of the proceeding, will not fail to pay the tribute
of their admiration to those unparalleled efforts by which
success was sought to be attained, and which, even in the
midst of defeat, were of a character nobly to maintain the na-
tional honour. (Cheers.) The gallant officer who was chief in
command of the expedition—Admiral Hope—received a most
severe wound on the occasion ; and the manner in which,
after receiving it, he shifted his flag from one ship to the
other, constantly placing himself in those positions most
exposed to danger, furnishes, in my opinion, an example of
almost unmatched devotion to his duty, and of an heroic
avery which cannot be surpassed by anything, even in the
annals of the English nation. (Cheers.) Now, the noble earl
opposite (EarliGrey) has, in the course of this discussion,
called our attention to what he considers to be the neglect
of her Majesty's Government in not immediately upon the
receipt of the intelligence of those events calling Parlia-
ment together for the purpose of consulting it as to the
course which ought to be pursued; and it is, undoubtedly,
under ordinary circumstances the duty of the Ministers of
the Crown to take no step so serious as that which involves
their country in war without seizing the earliest opportu-
nity to secure—if possible even before taking so serious a
step—the sanction of the Legislature to the course which
they desired to pursue. I doubt not, moreover, that if Par-
liament happened to be sitting at the time, the Government
would have availed themselves of the earliest opportunity
to bring the whole subject of the war with China under our
notice. The noble earl opposite, however, seems to think
that it was equally their duty to take this course, oven
though Parliament was not assembled. Now, in that re-
spect, I do not altogether concur in the view to which the
noble earl has given expression. There are other matters
which must be taken into consideration in determining
upon such a point, and other motives which might render
the calling together of the members of the Legislature on
such occasions a matter of difficulty. I am nevertheless
disposed to give weight to the argument that this is not, in
point of fact, the first occasion on which war has been so
declared, and to some of the other arguments in reference
to the subject which the noble lord has adduced. Not that
I think we had no cause of complaint with the Chinese :
but I thought the Government acted with great imprudence
in sanctioning the act of an officer on the spot, who took
on himself to decide for the Government whether there was
or was not a sufficient cause for war. (Hear, hear.) We
never had been at peace with China, and we confirm( d in
that state in which we had previously bsen. On the ques-
tion of right there was nothing whatever said in the treaty
as regards the manner in which wo should go to Tien-sin.
We were informed that barriers had been placed at the
entrance too the river and that resistance would bo offered
-to our passage ; and under those circumstances we had
no more right to force our way up that river than, as
had been happily said in the course of the debate,
a French squadron would have to force its way
up the Thames with an ambassador, accompanied by an
armed escort. (Hear, hear.) We called on the Chinese to
respect international rights and the usages of civilisation.
Did we expect them to deal with us in accordance with our
views of those matters. (Hear, hear.) I entreat the Go-
vernment to take care that we deal the same measure to the
Chinese which we required at their hands—(hear, hear)—
and that if hostilities are to be renewed they shall be renewed
on a more regular footing than hostilities were formerly,
waged against that people. (Cheers.) Without a declara-
tion of war we had no right to introduce a blockade,le esta-
blish a prize court, or to capture a single vessels s (Hear,
hear.) We learn that at present the United States and
Russia have had commercial advantages secured to them by
treaties with China. I entreat the Government to consider
what will be the consequences if, without a declaration of
war, should it be necessary to resort to hostilities—which I
earnestly trust it may not be—we, undertaking a blockade
of the Chinese rivers, stop a vessel belonging to the United
States or to Russia in the prosecution of a legitimate trade.
Your blnelrede will be treated nes wholly illegal, for illegal
it will be, and you will be answerable for all the conse-
quences of it. (Hear, hear.) I hope, therefore, that by pru-
dence and judgment the calamities of a protracted war with
China, the results of which no human being can foresee,
may be avoided ; but should hostilities be inevitable, I trust
the Government will take care that they are carried on, so
far as we are concerned, in accordance with the usages of
civilised countries. (Hear, hear.) I admit, where any great
party object is to be attained, it is a legitimate course to take
advantage of the Address with that view ; but not seeing
in the tone of the Speech any cause for a serious difference
of opinion, and not concurring with the noble earl in the
strong views ho has expressed as ti the lathes alleged to
have been committed by the Government with regard to
calling Parliament together, I shall not be able to support
his amendment with my vote in the event of his pressing it
to a division. I think it is rather a fortunate circumstance
that Parliament was not called together on the receipt of
the disastrous intelligence from China, because from the
feeling which that intelligence excited in the country,
Parliament—then imperfectly acquainted with the facts
—might have been carried away in the adoption
of a course which in cooler moments and on a calmer
consideration of the merits of the case they might
not have been inclined to take. (Hear, hear.) If I now
touch upon another question, it is rather with the 'view of
eliciting some information which we do not at present pos-
sess than of discussing the merits of any particular course.
Some suspicion has been excited in my mind by the intro.
duction of a word into the part of the Speech relating to our
sending a representative to the approaching congress. I trust
that expression does actually mean what at first sight it may
be supposed to mean. I see we are promised that papers on
that subject will "soon" be laid on the table. I have had
some experience with reference to the production of papers,
particularly by the noble viscount at the head of the Go-
vernment, and I know there is a degree of latitude and elas-
ticity about his movements in that respect—(a laugh)—
which would rather lead me to infer that the use of the
word "soon" in that part of the Speech points to a remote
rather than to an early fulfilment of the promise. (A laugh.)
Yet, in the present position of affairs, some information as
to the views and policy of the Government ought to be fur-
nished without delay—(hear)—because we have been lately
in a worse position than if we had received no information.
(Hear, hear.) We have had information, some of it anony-
mous, some of a semi-official character, and some on an au-
thority so high as to place it beyond dispute. Now, I must
say, when Parliament is ever disposed to press any Govern-
ment for the production of papers, and when the Govern-
ment states that the production of such papers at a particu-
lar time would be inconvenient, that is an excuse which is
readily admitted; but I do think at the present period, when
we have been obliged to take such information as we had
from telegrams, many of them of high authority, r from
newspapers, and last of all from Imperial letters, he
Ma-
jesty's Government should set the public mind at rest
of by
things.
(Hear, their own version of the actual state
(Hear, hear.) I find it stated in the Speech at the close of
the last session that "Overtures had been made_ to her
re pur-
poses e n
Majesty with a view to ascertain whether, if conferences
o f
with fortthe
e thep
o
shouldf be
settling
t thhenl dg b
arrangements
the Great
connectedo we r s
state and future condition of Italy, a plenipotentiary
would be sent by her Majesty to assist at such con-
ferences; but her Majesty has not yet received the in-
formation necessary to enable her to decide whe-
ther her Majesty may think fit to take part in any
such negotiations." I should like, therefore, to hear
from the Government the precise nature of that proposi-
tion, and under what conditions the assent of her Majesty has
since been given to it. It has also been stated, in some of
those sources of information to which I have referred, and
I have not seen it denied, that, as long ago as August, her
Majesty's Government proposed to the Government of the
Emperor of France, in the absence of a congress, separate
negotiations on the affairs of Italy between England and
France, setting aside the other great Powers. What answer
was given to that proposition we have no means of know-
suss • but I believe there is no doubt that within the course
oil& 'present month—not from her Majesty's Government,
but from that of the Emperor of France—a proposition was
made for a separate negotiation by England and France on
the affairs of Italy, unconnected with the other Powers;
but that—whether by a unanimous vote of the Cabinet or
otherwise we know not, though Cabinets are always sup-
posed to be unanimous—(a laugh)—proposition was de-
clined, and declined on the ground that such an alliance
might be offensive to the other great Powers, or might give
rise to suspicion, and that, as Parliament was about to meet,
it was not deemed expedient to take such a step until it had
met. The paragraph in the Speech from the Throne would
seem to indicate the probability that the congress may never
take place; yet I trust some member of the Government
will explain how they mean, either "in congress or in sepa-
rate negotiation," to secure for the people of Italy freedom
from foreign interference by force of arms in their internal
concerns. (Hear, hear.) These words appear to me to-lead
to the inference—especially when connected with the pre-
vious proposition to which I have referred—that now Par-
liament has met, and supposing the congress to fail, the
question of a separate intervention of Franco and England
in the affairs of Italy has not been dropped. but may again
be renewed. (Hear, hear.) I wish, therefore, to have a
full explanation of what is meant by a "separate negotia-
tion for the settlement of the affairs of Italy and for pre-
venting the intervention by force of arms of any other coun-
try in the internal affairs of Italy." I beg your lordships
and the Government to consider the serious consequences
which an agreement like this might lead to. If you
bind yourselves to France by any engagement to pre-
vent foreign armed intervention on the part of any other
Power you tie yourselves to the heel of France,
and may find yourselves bound to support her in
whatever she way attempt to establish in Italy by any
mode othor than by force of arms. If France should esta-
blish a state of things in Italy calculated to excite the not
unnatural jealousy of other Powers, and those other Powers
should attempt to interfere with the view of preventing it,
if you were to bind yourselves by such a treaty as I have
referred to, you would be compelled to join with France
whether she had acted rightly or wrongly, in order to stop
the intervention of those Powers by force of arms. (Hear)
Now, foreign intervention in the affairs of Italy has been
denounced in this anti the other 1i0n.% of Parliament in the

strongest terms. If there is one principle more recognised
than another in this country it is that any State has an un-
doubted right to settle its own internal affairs, whether with
regard to the constitution it may wish to have, or the dy-
nasty it may desire to establish, and that without the in-
tervention of any foreign country. (Hear.) When I say
that I am only stating what is the feeling of every English-
man. It is a principle which has, generally speaking, been
steadily maintained by us. Even the great war consequent
on the French Revolution was no departure from that prin •
ciple, because that war was undertaken not in consequence
of what :had been done in France, but in consequence of
measures that were deemed dangerous to the peace and
tranquillity of other countries. (Hear.) There was a de-
viation from this principle in one particular instance, and
that deviation has proved;utterly ineffective—l mean the re-
solution which bound the Powers of Europe to prevent in all
time coming a member of the family of Bonaparte from sit-
ting on the throne of France. (Hear.) The Emperor who
now sits on the throne of France, by the voice of the French
people, has afforded Europe an opportunity of enforcingthis
article of the treaty of Vienna, and there is not a single
Power in Europe that has ventured to do so, or to call in
question the right of the people in France to elect their own
ruler. (Hear.) I say not only that every country has a right
a settle its internal affairs without foreign armed interfe-
rence, but that it must be done without foreign assistance ;
and I am sure that, much as we may desire to see the in-
dependence of Italy secured, every one of us would join in
saying this, that they ought to attain their own freedom,
that if they wish to place themselves under a constitutional
Government they must achieve that great object, not by
foreign assistance, but by their own unaided efforts.
(Hear, hear.) I will go further, and say that they must
be strong reasons indeed which would justify other Powers
in taking away any portion of territory from a particular
country. Undoubtedly there are cases in which the transfer
of a portion of territory from one country to another may
be not only at variance with previous engagements, but may
involve consequences so serious and dangerous as to render
it a matter of universal European interest. If a State
already powerful should seek to obtain from another, even
with the consent of the people, a new line of frontier which,
though not of large extent in point of territory, might be of
great value in respect to the construction of fortifications,
that would be a condition with regard to which not only
the people to be transferred would be entitled to a voice,
but which other countries of Europe might have a right to
protest against. (Hear.) Applying this to the present
state of affairs in Italy, I would observe that we were
anxious in this country to prevent the war that ultimately
broke out. So long as that rupture did not take place, so
long as we were able to appeal to those treaties by which
the various States of Europe were bound ; and no man laid
down more strongly than the French Emperor himself that
so long as Austria confined herself within the limits of
those possessions secured to her by the treaty of Vienna,
he would recognise her rights, and had no right to inter-
fere. But unhappily, and in an evil hour, Austria threw
away her chance. I do net mean to say that she might not
have had provocation to do as she did, but, unhappily for
herself, she took the initiative, and the result was that she
lost her possessions in Lombardy. By the treaty she has
concluded with France she was compelled to make a sacri-
fice of a portion of her dominions. (Hear.) We are all
familiar with the great evils that have arisen in Italy from
the constant contests not for the independence of Italy,
but of the rival Powers ofFrance and Austria to possess in-
fluence in that country. No doubt Austria had a perfect
right to enter into treaties with the smaller States of Italy,
and to afford them protection ; but those treaties naturally
excited the jealousy of other Powers, because, by them,
owing to the relative position of Austria and those minor
States, the independence of the one was sacrificed in pro-
portion as the other became a protector. But the provisions
of those treaties which were most injurious, and the sacrifice
of whichbyAustriamight have retained to her her dominions,
were those by which she not only guaranteed the Govern-
ments of the smaller States against external aggression, but
against their own subjects. (Hear, hear.) It was a vio-
lation of every right principle that the Governments of
those States should be enabled to demand the assistance of
Austria against their own people, and the refusal of Austria
to concede this point naturally excited the opposition of
other Powers. (Hear.) As to the state of things at Rome,
I hope the noble earl opposite will be able to give us satis-
factory assurances on that subject, inasmuch as statements
have been made that in my mind seriously impugn the con-
duct of her Majesty's Government. (Hear, hoar.) The
Pope, for example, has been told by the Emperor of the
French that if he would give up the revolted provinces, not
that he might hope or expect to be guaranteed, but that he
should be guaranteed by the other Powers in his'other pos-
sessions. I will not eater into the question of the temporal
power of the Pope It is said by Roman Catholics that
the maintenance of the temporal power of the Pope is abso-
lutely essential to the maintenance of his spiritual power.
That is not the question which the country has at the pre-
sent moment to consider. No doubt the spiritual power of
the Pope is of great importance to all Roman Catholics, and
if they believe that the temporal power ef the Pope, although
it was not considered necessary by St. Peter himself—(a
laugh)—is necessary for the maintenance of his spiritual
power, 1 cannot question the sincerity of their anxiety that
the Pope's temporal power should remain undisturbed. I
call understand that fur the duo exercise of his high spi-
ritual power the Pope should be placed beyond a suspicion
of being controlled or influenced by any temporal Power,
and that he should be, indeed, practically independent.
But I ask any human being whether during the course of
tho last 10 or 15 years, the Pope has been practically inde-
pendent. (Cheers.) Up to elate period we have seen one
portion of his territory defended by one Power and another
portion by another Power. One portion was ill-maintained
by the troops of one of these Powers, and the instant they
were withdrawn those provinces were in revolt. Now this
country can look upon the Sovereign Pontiff in no other
light than it would look upon any other sovereign what-
ever—(hear, hear)—and the same principles must be ap-
plied to him as to other sovereigns as between himself and
his subjects. Viewed in this light his dynasty is capable
of being overthrown, the constitution of his kingdoms
may be modified by the free will of his subjects, and
no foreign Power has the right to interfere with the
action of the Pope and his subjects. (Hear, hear.) MY
lords, these are the opinions that ought to be acted upon
throughout the whole of the Italian States. (Hear, heal;)They are free to choose their own Government and tbn
own constitution, and that constitution must be establisiter
of their own free will and under no foreign influence, donlr
nation or interference. I should like to know from aka.
Government that with regard to these principles they have
followed out that line of strict neutrality which was chalked
out for them by their predecessors. I acquit them of any
of that pro-Austrian tendency that was so liberally imputed
to the late Government, because the course taken by Her
Majesty's Government cannot be charged with any violation
of neutrality in favour of the Austrian cause. (A laugh.)
But I ask the Government, who professedly desire that the
Italian States should settle their affairs for themselves, on
what ground one French army at the present moment occu-
pies Lombardy, and another French army occupies Rome.
(Hear, hear.) Is that leaving it to the States of Lombardy
and Rome to settle their own affairs ? The Austrians have
crossed the Mincio, and Lombardy has been handed over
to Sardinia. Why, then, do the French troops remain
in Lombardy unless it is that there is some lurking appre-
hension that if the presence of the French troops is with•
drawn from the Milanese or the Roman States some mani-
festation of feeling would follow which might not be in ac-
cordance with the wish of the Sovereign who has sent those
troops ? (Hear, hear.) The first step must be the with-
drawal of foreign Powers and foreign interference, and then
Sovereign and subjects could exercise their constitutional
rights without interference. - We are now either to have
congress or a separate negotiation for settling the affairs of
Italy. How is that congress to be carried out P What
course are the separate negotiations to take ? How the
decisions of the congress or the separate negotiations are to
be enforced I do not understand. I object to any infeefer..
once by England if it can possibly be helped in the settle-
ment of a question in which she has no direct or immediate
interest. I believe that it is in consequence of our
having kept aloof from these embarrassments and
twledpvsctf
aeorteaphoo:ohfig:imii
easneuen,grarecheegsgcrhdaesaatrd—.
Congress
nwsonhyedEgcsh:louh,vritl
nzoopeiwiott.
sotasiwbh,beforehand
object
are:ifestetoeylobcth. interference that we have attained to the
high position in which we now stand, and which
have made the opinion and the moral force of Eng-
land looked up to, and exercise the most powerful in-
fluence. (Cheers) I admit that there may be steps in re-
gard to the recent changes which ought to have the assent
of the Powers
lerceturlienosprreoutomothbaothootntraisnwhetntsaotielirieehdenysnpyns
sraltuteNpOobsyoetvltrafreeorhppcyit.
iainbnnhaoi
ntoreeirhsetgeglnhiheyti
uTtottoseeinpeuifu
nsarssiyotdsefitsoaddnoiacdopnatueetatnoaylr
precisely
ecsiboyoecr
iopaceutefineoTrobtsol
gvtleaher
teoriihbaltdiefgiyi
retyeaenarillntnyttegettylahinsaotnikasselahow
itiniegfoeputna,
drfotonQpw
if. Vmhisaedoniutrlianntrtteeeceyhsihpn ntniecogootr
or:
interference,
be
nohuhe synaiitt, •
I do not say that we are not to ga under any circumstances
butpa
b
d
gre Con-
gress
owahci
laid down by the majority of the Powers who may be par-
ties to that Congress. (Cheers.) Last year the state of
things was widely different. There were then no dynastic
changes in agitation. There was then a hope that war
might be prevented, and certain definite propositions pre-
viously agreed upon were laid down between the contending
parties. Even that Congress was not to take upon itself to
do more than decide the questions submitted to it, and to
give advice to parties whom it had a right to counsel with
regard to tho future government of those States. If the
Congress does take place, of which, at present, I see little
probability, I do not say we ought to refuse to go to it ; but
unless I could see some fair prospect of such a result from
its deliberations as this country could conscientiously and
honourably sanction, and which would accord with public
opinion, I think it would be far bettor not to go into it at all.
It would be better not to enter the Congress than to have to
raise an ineffectual protest, or else to retire from it in the un-
dignified position of being overruled by a council to which
we had ourselves submitted our case. (Hear, hear.) I
have, 1 fear, detained your lordships too long—(cheers)--
but I thought it right to lay down the principles of policy
which I consider applicable to this and other occasions. My
object has been to elicit fi ore the Government whether there
is any truth in the statements of the advice and offers they
have made, in what position they stand at present, and what
is the policy they are prepared to recommend. (Cheers.)
Earl GRANVILLE—I was hardly prepared to hear I
complaint that only one member of the Government had
spoken in this debate. As long as her Majesty's Government
do not shrink from defending their opinions when they are
attacked I think it is better that they should not monopolise
the *hole debate, and that they should give an opportunity
to bOth sides to take a share in it, instead of jumping up one
after another to say the same thing over and over again. At
the same time I feel, after the speech of the noble earl, that
it is quite necessary for Inc to make a few observations,
though I am afraid at this hour of the evening many of your
lordships must be disposed to deprecate any extension of the
debate, and would prefer not to have another member of the
Government address you. I will make but a few remarks,
though .I must take longer than I should like if I can remem-
ber only a fifth of the numerous questions which the noble
earl addressed to me. Among the minor topics upon which
the noble earl began by touching were the treaties with
Japan and Guatemala. For the first of these he, perhaps very
naturally, claimed some credit to his Government ; as to the
other—an excellent treaty in its way—when I tell you that
it was negotiated under the instructions of one Government,
made during the tenor of another, and ratified by a third, I
think you will admit that the proportion of merit to be
claimed by the noble earl is not so great as he would wish
your lordships to believe. Another subject adverted to by
the noble earl was the subject of Parliamentary Reform,
which he treated with considerable humour, citing the
speech of a noble lord as an instance of the want of excite-
ment and enthusiasm on this subject.
Lord DERBY—I did not take it up nipelf, but merely
used the language of the noble lord.
Earl GRANVILLE—A great deal of stress has been laid
by the noble earl on the intelligence which appeared in the
shape of newspaper telegrams, end through that source We