The Sun.
London, England, 1860-01-25 00:00:00

nature of which he could not foresee, is called upon to rely
entirely on his own resources and his own discretion.
(Hear, hear.) Such allowance must, I think, be made for
Mr. Bruce in dealing with the question of the policy of
forcing the passage of the Peiho. (Hear, hear.) It is at
the same time due to my noble friend near me (Lord
Malmesbury), who held the seals of the Foreign-office un-
der the -late Administration, to state that, although he
allowed Mr. Bruce a large latitude—a latitude which was
in my opinion most properly continued to him, and the
continuance of which was amply justified by the manner
in which he discharged the important duties which de-
volved upon him—yet neither my noble friend nor the
Government of which ho was a member could contem-
plate the occurrence of such a state of things as Mr.
Bruce found upon his arrival in China, while the course
which he pursued is certainly not capable of being jus-
tified by the instructions which he received at our
hands. Whether it is capable of justification on other
grounds I am not in a position to say. A grave question in
connexion with this point has been raised by the noble earl
who moved the amendment. It is one, too, I ant bound to
say, which it is not easy to answer in the affirmative. That
question is, whether all the blame of those unfortunate
transactions which occurred at the mouth of the Peiho is to
be thrown entirely upon the Chinese, and whether we our-
selves aro exempt from all charge of precipitation and im-
prudence in connexion with the matter? The point is one
which Ido not now wish to discuss. We shall, in all pro-
bability, have at no distant day fuller information and more
ample means to enable us to do justice to a subject so im-
portant and of such groat extent. There is, however, one
topic in connexion with it which I must not pass over on
the present occasion. It is a topic which I am sorry to find
has not received publicly whatever may be the case pri-
vately, that attention which it seems to me to deserve. I
now allude to the heroic conduct which was displayed by the
Admiral and the seamen who were engaged in the conflict
which took place at the mouth of the Peiho. (Cheers.) In
referring to that conduct your lordships will, I am sure,
concur with me in the justice of the sentiment that the meed
of praise and honour is not to be the mood of success alone.
(Hear, hear.) I may add, that unsuccessful though this
unfortunate expedition to the north of Peiho may have
been, I know of no other in which the daring gallantry and
perseverance of British seamen and British troops have ever
been more signally exhibited than in that unhappy encoun-
ter. (Cheers.) I feel assured, too, that those brave men
who have suffered so severely in person and in mind from
the failure of their expedition will have justice done them by
their fellow-countrymen, who, whatever they may think
of the policy of the proceeding, will not fail to pay the tribute
of their admiration to those unparalleled efforts by which
success was sought to be attained, and which, even in the
midst of defeat, were of a character nobly to maintain the na-
tional honour. (Cheers.) The gallant officer who was chief in
command of the expedition—AdmiralHope—received a most
severe wound on the occasion ; and the manner in which,
after receiving it, he shifted his flag from one ship to the
other, constantly placing himself in those positions most
exposed to danger, furnishes, in my opinion, an example of
almost unmatched devotion to his duty, and of an heroic
bravery which cannot be surpassed by anything, even in the
annals of the English nation. (Cheers.) Now, the noble earl
opposite (EarliGrey) has, in the course of this discussion,
called our attention to what he considers to be the neglect
of her Majesty's Government in not immediately upon the
receipt of the intelligence of those events calling Parlia-
ment together for the purpose of consulting it as to the
course which ought to be pursued ; and it is, undoubtedly,
under ordinary circumstances the duty of the Ministers of
the Crown to take no step so serious as that which involves
their country in war without seizing the earliest opportu-
nity to secure—if possible oven before taking so serious a
step—the sanction of the Legislature to the course which
they desired to pursue.,l doubt not, moreover, that if Par-
liament happened to be sitting at the time, the Government
would have availed themselves of the earliest opportunity
to bring the whole subject of the war with China under our
notice. The noble earl opposite, however, seems to think
that it was equally their duty to take this course, even.
though Parliament was not assembled. Now, in iat re-
spect, I do not altogether concur in the viest.to which the
noble earl has given expression. There are other matters
which must be taken into consideration in determining
upon such a point, and other motives which might render
the calling together of the members of the Legislature on
such occasions a matter of difficulty. I am nevertheless
disposed to give weight to the argument that this is not, in
point of fact, the first occasion on which war has been so
declared, and to some of the other arguments in reference
to the subject which the noble lord has adduced. Not that
I think we had no cause of complaint with the Chinese :
but I thought the Government acted with great imprudence
in sanctioning the act of an officer on the spot, who took
on himself to decide for the Government whether there was
or was not a sufficient cause for war. (Hear, hear.) We
never had been at peace with China, and we continua d in
that state in which we had previously ben. On the ques-
ttm. of right there was nothing whatever said in the treaty
as legards the manner in which we should go to Tien-sin.
We were informed that barriers had been placed at the
efitrance to the river and that resistance would be offered
to our passage ; and under those circumstances we had
no more right to force our way up that river than, as
had been happily said in the course of the debate,
a French squadron would have to force its way
up the Thames with an ambassador, accompanied by an
armed escort. (Hear, hear.) We called on the Chinese to
respect international rights and the usages of civilisation.
Did we expect them to deal with us in accordance with our
views of those matters. (Hear, hear.) I entreat the Go-
vernment to take care that we deal the same measure to the
Chinese which we required at their hands—(hear, hear)—
and that if hostilities are to be renewed they shall be renewed
on a more regular footing than hostilities were formerly
waged against that people. (Cheers.) Without a declara-
tion of war wo had no right to introduce a blockade, to esta-
blish a prize court, or to capture a single vessel. (Hear,
hear.) We learn that at present the United States and
Russia have had commercial advantages secured to them by
treaties with China. I entreat the Government to consider
what will be the consequences if, without a declaration of
war, should it be necessary to resort to hostilities—which I
earnestly trust it may not be—we, undertaking a blockade
of the Chinese rivers, stop a vessel belonging to the United
States or to Russia in the prosecution of a legitimate trade.
Your blockade will be treated as wholly illegal, for illegal
it will be, and you will be answerable for all the conse-
quences of it. (Hear, hoar.) I hope, therefore, that by pru-
dence and judgment the calamities of a protracted war with
China, the results of which no human being can foresee,
may be avoided ; but should hostilities be inevitable, I trust
the Government will take care that they are carried on, so
far as we are concerned, in accordance with the usages of
civilised countries. (Hoar, hear.) I admit, where any great
party object is to bo attained, it is a legitimate course to take
advantage of the Address with that view ; but not seeing
in the tone of the Speech any cause for a serious difference
of opinion, and not concurring with the noble earl in the
strong views he has expressed as t• the laches alleged to
have been committed by the Government with regard to
calling Parliament together, I shall not be able to support
his amendment with my vote in the event of his pressing it
to a division. I think it is rather a fortunate circumstance
t
heheeal
dnPiParliamentwhichthat
two
gnne
tenet
le
oci
ga
fromel lne e t
eo
xgce China,tt he de r
bi oenne ttuhhs eee rf
country,
eco eumi
np
tttrhyo
eff,
g
Parliament—then imperfectly acquainted with the facts
—might have been carried away in the adoption
of a course which in cooler moments and on a calmer
consideration of the merits of the case they might
not have been inclined to take. (Hear, hear.) If I now
touch upon another question, it is rather with the view of
eliciting some information which we do not at present pos-
sess than of discussing the merits ef any particular course.
Some suspicion has been excited in my mind by the intro-
duction of a word into the part of the Speech relating to our
sending a representative to the approaching congress. I trust
that expression does actually mean what at first sight it may
bo supposed to mean. I see we are promised that papers on
that subject will " soon" be laid on the table. I have had.
some experience with reference to the production of papers,
particularly by the noble viscount at the head of the Go-
vernment, and I know there is a degree of latitude and elas-
ticity about his movements in that respect—(a laugh)—
which would rather lead me to infer that the use of the
word "soon" in that part of the Speech points to a remote
rather than to an early falfilment of the promise. (A laugh.)
Yet, in the present position of affairs, some information as
to the views and policy of the Government ought to be fur-
nishod without delay—(hear)—because we have been lately
in a worse position than if we had received no information.
(Hear, hear.) We have had information, some of it anony-
mous, some of a semi-official character, and some on Inuaou-t
au-
thority so high as to place it beyond dispute.
say, when Parliament is ever disposed to press aNneyw6_oovi_erhrns--
ment for the production of papers, and when thteau" ve
particu-
meat states that the production of such papers
il.aeradtinmyeawdmouitltdedbe;
binuctolnvdeontihinentk, that is
tion as we had
we have been obliged to take such info!
ei s
presentan excuse
pger
operiod, which
when is
e restle ee by
newspapers, and last of all fromlrepe
from telegrams, many of them of hirgihamiattleutttheorsri,thye,
her
fi‘rioain.
jesty's Government should set the_
(Hear, hear.) I find
"Overtures had been made to her
producing their own v.etrsstioantedofinththepeacptueael state of things.
the last session that
whether, if conferences
Majesty with a view to ascertain_
pose of settling arrangements
of Italy, a pat birch
should be held by the Greatr
coowneoreseotfodEuwriotphe for the tphreepseurht-
e
state and future cendition t
to assist at such con
would be sent by her M
able her to decide
r et therefore, eftohraet,
it 3
roo
phoesai
in-
formation necessary to e
ferences ; but her Majestya-jheasynot yet received he
ecin--
think fit to take part inwallneyther her Maiesty may
shporueeldiselnikaeto,
r
from the
such negGotoivaloiroonms.e'n'
Government the
her Maj
tion, and under what conditions the assent of esty has
since been given to it. It has also been stated, in some of
the sources of information to which I have referred, and
Iheaeve not seen it denied, that, as long ago as August, her
Majesty's Government proposed to the Government of the
Emperor of France, in the absence of a congress, separate
negotiations on the affairs of Italy betweeds England and
France, setting aside the other great Powers. What answer
was given to that proposition we have no means of know-
ing ;but I believe there is no doubt that within the course
of the present month—not from her Majesty's Government,
but from that of the Emperor of France—a proposition was
made for a separate negotiation by England and France on
the affairs of Italy, unconnected with the other Powers ;
but that—whether by a unanimous vote of the Cabinet or
otherwise we know not, though Cabinets are always sup-
posed to be unanimous—(a laugh)—proposition was de-
clined, and decline& on the ground that such an alliance
might be offensive to the ether great Powers, or might give
rise to suspicion, and that, as Parliament was about to me
it was not deemed expedient to take such a step until it had
seemm et . t
oT
ihned
ipeaartaf t
haepphr
oi
hn a thhi
tSypteheac from t
that the
ro e n
bh..res s Thronem ay would
never
take place; yet I trust some member of the Government
will explain how they mean, either " in congress or in sepa-
rate negotiation," to secure for the people of Italy freedom
from foreign interference by force of arms in their internal
concerns. (Hear, hoar.) These words appear to me to lead
to the inference—especially when connected with the pre-
vious proposition to which I have referred—that now Par-
liament has met, and supposing the congress to fail, the
question of a separate intervention of France and England
in the affairs of Italy has not been dropped, but may again
be renewed. (Hear, hear.) I wish, therefore, to have a
full explanation of what is meant by a "separate negotia-
tion fur the settlement of the affairs of Italy and for pre-
venting the intervention by force of arms of any other coun-
try in the internal affairs of Italy." I beg your lordships
and the Government to consider the serious consequences
which an agreement like this might lead to. If you
bind yourselves to France by any engagement to pre-
vent foreign armed intervention on the part of any other
Power you tie yourselves to the heel of France,
and may find yourseles bound to support her in
whatever she may attempt to establish in Italy by any
mode other than by force of arms. If France should esta-
blish a state of things in Italy calculated to excite the not
unnatural jealousy of other Powers, and those other Powers
should attempt to interfere with the view of preventing it,
if you were to bind yourselves by inch a freely as I have
referred to, you would be compelled to join with France
whether she had acted rightly or wrongly, in order to stop
the intervention of those Powers by force of arms. (Hear.)
Now, foreign intervention in the affairs of Italy has been
denounced in this and the other lime of Farlittramt in the

strongest terms. If there is one principle more recognised
than another in this country it is that any State has an un-
doubted right to settle its own internal affairs, whether with
regard to the constitution it may wish to have, or the dy-
nasty it may desire to establish, and that without the in-
tervention of any foreign country. (Hear.) When I say
that I am only stating what is the feeling of every English-
man. It is a principle which has, generally speaking, been
steadily maintained by us. Even the great war consequent
on the French Revolution was no departure from that prin-
ciple, because that war was undertaken not in consequence
of what :had been done in France, but in conseqnence of
measures that were deemed dangerous to the peace and
tranquillity of other countries. (Hear.) There was a de-
viation from this principle in one particular instance, and
that deviation has provectutterly ineffective—l mean the re-
solution which bound the Powers of Europe to prevent in all
time coming a member of the family of Bonaparte from sit-
ting on the throne of France. (Hear.) The Emperor who
now sits or. the throne of France, by the voice of the French
people, has afforded Europe an opportunity of enforcing this
article of the treaty of Vienna, and there is not a single
Power in Europe that has ventured to do so, or to call in
question the right of the people in France to elect their own
ruler. (Hear.) I say not only that every country hasa right
a settle its internal affairs without foreign armed interfe-
rence, but that it must be done without foreign assistance ;
and I am sure that, much as we may desire to see the in-
dependence of Italy secured, every one of us would join in
saying this, that they ought to attain their own freedom
that if they wish to place themselves under a constitutional
Government they must achieve that great object, not by
foreign assistance, but by their own unaided efforts.
(Hear, hear.) I will go further, and say that they must
be strong reasons indeed which would justify other Powers
in taking away any portion of territory from a particular
country. Undoubtedly there are cases in which the transfer
of a portion of territory from one country to another may
be not only at variance with previous engagements, but may
involve consequences so serious and dangerous as to render
it a matter of universal European interest. If a State
already powerfulethould seek to obtain from another, even
with the consent of the people, a new line of frontier which,
though not of large extent in point of territory, might be of
great value in respect to the construction of fortifications,
that would be a condition with regard to which not only
the people to bo transferred would be entitled to a voice,
but which other countries of Europe might have a right to
protest against. (Hear.) Applying this to the present
state of affairs in Italy, I would observe that we were
anxious in this country to prevent the war that ultimately
broke out. So long as that' rupture did not take place, so
long as we were able to appeal to those treaties by which
the various States of Europe were bound e and ne man laid
down more strongly than the French Emperor himself that
so long as Austria confined herself within the limits of
those possessions secured to her by the treaty of Vienna,
he would recognise her rights, and had no right to inter-
fere. But unhappily, and in an evil hour, Austria throw
away her chance. I do net mean to say that she might not
have had provocation to do as she did, but, unhappily for
herself, she took the initiative, and the result was that she
lost her possessions in Lombardy. By the treaty she has
concluded with France she was compelled to make a uteri-
, fice of a portion of her dominions. (Hear.) We are all
familiar with the great evils that have arisen in Italy from
the constant contests not for the independence of Italy,
but of the rival Powers of France and Austria to possess in-
fluence in that country. No doubt Austria had a perfect
right to enter into treaties with the smaller States of Italy,
and to afford them protection; but those treaties naturally
excited the jealousy of other Powers, because, by them,
owing to the relative position of Austria and those minor
States, the independence of the one was sacrificed in pro-
portion as the other became a protector. But the provisions
of those treaties which were most. injurious, and the sacrifice
of which byAustriamight have retained to her her dominions,
were those by which she not only guaranteed the Govern-
ments of the smaller States against external aggression, but
against their own subjects. (Hear, hear.) It was a vio-
lation of every right principle that the Governments of
those States should be enabled to demand the assistance of
Austria against their own people, and the refusal of Austria
to concede this point naturally excited the opposition of
other Powers. (Hear.) As to the state of things at Rome,
I hope the noble earl opposite will be able to give us satis-
factory assurances on that subject, inasmuch as statements
have been made that in my mind seriously impugn the con-
duct of her Majesty's Government. (Hear, hear.) The
Pope, for example, has been told by the Emperor of the
French that if he would give up the revolted provinces, not
that he might hope or expect to be guaranteed, but that he
should be guaranteed by the other Powers in his other pos-
sessions. I will not enter into the question of the temporal
power of the Pope It is said by Roman Catholics that
the maintenance of the temporal power of the Pope is abso-
lutely essential to the maintenance of his spiritual power.
That is not the question which the country has at the pre-
sent moment to consider. No doubt the spiritual power of
the Pope is of great importance to all Roman Catholics, and
if they believe that the temporal power of the Pope, although
it was not considered necessary by St. Peter himself—(e
laugh)—is necessary for the maintenance of his spiritual
power, 1 cannot question the sincerity of their anxiety that
the Pope's temporal power should remain undisturbed. I
can understand that for the due exercise of his high spi-
ritual power the Pope should be placed beyond a suspicion
of being controlled or influenced by any temporal Power,
and that he should be, indeed, practically independent.
But I ask any human being whether during the course of
the last 10 or 15 years, the Pope has been practically inde-
pendent. (Cheers.) Up to a late period we have seen one
portion of his territory defended by one Power and another
portion by another Power. One portion was ill-maintained
by the troops of one of these Powers, and the instant they
were withdrawn those provinces were in revolt. Now this
country can look upon the Sovereign Pontiff in no other
light than it would look upon any other sovereign what-
ever—(hear, hear)—and the same principles must be ap;
plied to him as to other sovereigns as between himself Alec!.
his subjects. Viewed in this light his dynasty
of being overthrown, the constitution of his kingdonl
may be modified by the free will of ills subjects, en
no foreign Power has the right to interfere with ,t„;,`:
action of the Pope and his subjects. (Hear, hear.) Prieve
lords, these are the opinions that ought to be acted uP')
throughout the whole of the Italian States. (Hear, he sr
They are free to choose their own Government andgejed
own constitution, and that constitution must be esteblee.
of their own free will and under no foreign influence, dope
nation or interference. I should likes to know- from
Government that with regard to these principles they
followed out that line of strict neutrality which was challegt
out for them by their predecessors. I acquit them of any
of that pro-Austrian tendency that was so liberally imputed
is cap
to the late Government, because the course taken by Her
Majesty's Government cannot bo charged with any
violation
of neutrality in favour of the Austrian cause. (A laugh.)
But I ask the Government, who professedly desire that the
Italian States should settle their affairs for themselves, on
what ground one French army at the present moment occu-
pies Lombardy, and another French army occupies. Bane.
(Hear, hear.) Is that leaving it to the States of Lombardi.
and Rome to settle their own affairs ? The Austrians ila'fr
crossed the Mincio, and Lombardy has been handed over
to Sardinia. Why, then, do the French troops renal°
in Lombardy unless it is that there is some lurking aPlrr.
hension that if the presence of the French troops is eirk•
drawn from the Milanese or the Roman States some raalo-
- of feeling would follow which might not be in Se'
cordance with the wish of the Sovereign who has sent thee.
troops ? (Hear, hear.) The first step must be the with-
drawal of foreign Powers and foreign interference, and the;
Sovereign and subjects could exercise their con:titutionee
rights without interference. We are now either to hoe 1}
congress or a separate negotiation for settling the affairs of
Italy. How is that congress to be carried out ? Wha
course are the separate negotiations to take ? How the
decisiOns of the congress or the separate negotiations are to
be enforced Ido not understand. I object to therf
ence by England if it can possibly be helped in settle-
ment of a question in which she has no direct or immediate,
interest. I believe that it is in consequence of Oa
heving kept aloof from these embarrassments an
from any interference that we have attained to the
high position in which we now stand, and which
have made the opinion and the moral force of Eng-
land looked up to, and exercise the most powerful in'
fluence. (Cheers) I admit that there may be steps in rfi
gord to the recent changes which ought to have the mole";
n sayg that
s.
Iw eo are
l y nota y
of the Powers who were parties to the Treaty of Vienna'
I to underyou agny eti c ugmo s
itna
tnoe e;
d oa not
Congress with the basis of negotiations clearly and atrial'?
defined. I object to entering upon a. Congress upon th°
vague and loose terms in which it is described in the Queena
Speech—viz., for the purpose of deliberating with sigh
Powers who were parties to the Treaty of Vienna, and thre°
others who were not, as to the pacification of Italy, withou
laying down beforehand clearly and precisely the points cal
which the opinions of that Congress are to be taken. I Pro
test against this country being bound by the acts of a tx_.ly
gress which may not only bind us to active interforenV,
but to acquiesce in the principles and policy that may '-
laid down by the majority of the Powers who may be Pali
ties to that Congress. (Cheers.) Last year the state O
' things was widely different. There were then no dynestio
changes in agitation. There was then a hope that sor
might be prevented, and certain definite propositions pre;
viously agreed upon were laiddown between the center:oWe.° w
parties. Even that Congress was not to take upon itself
do more than decide the questions submitted to it, and tf,
give advice to parties whom it had a right to counsel wits
regard to the future government of those States. If th
Congress does take place, of which, at present, I see Wit
probability, I do not say we ought to refuse to go to it ; bu
unless I could see some fair prospect of such a result fro s;
its deliberations as this country could conscientiously
honourably sanction, and which would accord with
opinion, I think it would be far better not to go into it at el'
It would be better not to enter the Congress than to have t°
raise an ineffectual protest, or else to retire from it in the on;
dignified position of being overruled by a council to will
we had ourselves submitted our case. (Hear, hear.)
have, 1 fear, detained your lordships too long—(cheers) ,
but I thought it right to lay down the principles of foli%
which I consider applicable to this and other occasions.
object has been to elicit ft om the Government whether they
is any truth in the statements of the advice and offers theeose
have made, in what position they stand at present, and SVP
is the policy they are prepared to recommend. (Cheers.)
Earl GRANVILLE—I was hardly prepared to heer_A
complaint that only one member of the Government 13;
spoken in this debate. As long as her Majesty's GovernMe
do not shrink from defending their opinions when they al4
.50
attacked I think it is better that they should not moneneellti
-the whole debate, and that they should give an opportlenl4
to both sides to take a share in it, instead of jumping up t
after another to say the same thing over and over again. at
the same time I feel, after the speech of the noble earl, .tn.,
it is quite necessary for me to make a few observaticj:;
though I am afraid at this hour of the evening ramp °fro,'"
lordships must be disposed to deprecate any extension a 10,
debate, and would prefer not to have another member a bio,
Government address you. I will make but a few relleAr,,
though I must take longer than I should like if I can reroTie
ber only a fifth of the numerous questions which the no. is
earl addressed to me. Among the minor topics upon willies
the noble earl began by toucking were the treaties ecori
Japan and Guatemala. For the first of these he, perhaPs gibe
naturally, claimed some credit to his Government; as t° t
tio
other—an excellent treaty in its way—when I tell you
pi.,
it was negotiated under the instructions of one Goverul,
made during the tenor of another, and ratified by a thin
by
think you will admit that the proportion of merit to
claimed by the noble earl is not so great as he would 141,1
your lordships to believe. Another subject adverted
." ,t°lo,
the noble earl was the subject of Parliamentary the
which he treated with considerable humour, citing_itee
speech of a noble lord as an instance of the want of eV'
ment and enthusiasm on this subject.
erely
Lord DERBY-1 did not take it up myself, but
used the language of the noble lord.
in
Earl GRANVILLE—A great deal of stress has bee .0 the
by the noble 'earl on the intelligence which appearedo f 8
shape cif newspaper telegrams, ahsl throgh that eeo