The Sun.
London, England, 1860-08-15 00:00:00

SUPPLY.

The house then went into committee of supply.
£1,000,000 was voted for Exchequer Bonds.
On the ♦ote of £3,865 for the maintenance of British
Embassy Houses,
Mr. WILLIAMS moved that the vote should be reduced
by £650, the item for the Embassy House at Therapia.
He contended that the house in question was quite unne-
cessary, and repeated the statement he bad made on a for-
mer occason in regard to this subject.
Mr. COWPER said he understood that the whole dip-
lomatic body left Constantinople at a certain period of the
year and went to Therapia, so that it was necessary for the
British ambassador to have a house at the latter place. That
house was the gift of the Sultan, and they could not dis-

pose of it.
£8,460 was voted for the consulate at Constantinople.
On the vote of £160,000 for harbours of refuge,
Mr. CONINGHAM objected to the item of £65,000 for
the harbour of Alderney. He said such harbour was un-
necessary, and moved that the vote should be reduced by
the amount in question.
After some conversation,
Lord C. PAGET said that the breakwater at Alderney
was carried out to the point marked D on the plan, and
the object in view was to afford shelter to small vessels
from easterly winds.
The house divided—
For the amendment
Against it 4l
Majority
1 The amendment was accordingly negatived, and the item

agreed to
Mr. BELLEW objected to the amount of the vote of
£30,000 for Holyhead harbour of refuge.
Mr. LAING said that the object of this harbour of re-
fags was to afford shelter to vessels of large burden. There
was some difference between the steam boat company and
the railway company interested in the harbour, and during
the recess the place would be visited by the Secretaries of
the Admiralty, in company with representatives of the two
companies.
The item was agreed tip, as were £4Ol for harbour of
refuge for Portpatrick, and £7,226 for a harbour of refuge at
Kingston.
Several votes for expenses of the offices connected with
both Houses of Parliament were agreed to.
On the vote of £2,750 for the office of the Privy Seal,
Mr. AYRTON moved that the vote should be reduced
by £2,000 the salary of the Lord Privy Seal, an office
which a committee had recommended should be abolished.
Sir G. LEWIS said that the office of Postmaster-Gene-
ral and Lord Privy Seal were filled for the present by the
Duke of Argyle, who, however, did not draw both sala-
ries. According to the recommendation of the commmittee
the office of Signet had been abolished, and a reduction was
made in the office of Privy Seal, but two clerks were kept,
in order, according to the forms of the constitution, to affix
the Privy Seal to patents before they received the stamp of
the Grand Seal. With regard to the Lord Privy Seal, the
object was to have a person of rank attached to the Cabinet
who should not have to discharge any active duties. He
strongly opposed the abolition of the office.
Lord FERMOY supported the amendment, and some
discussion ensued.
The house divided, and the numbers were—
For the amendment l5
Against
Majority
The vote" was then agreed to.
On the vote of £5,796 for the civil commission,
Mr. COCHRANE strongly objected to the competitive
examination, on the ground that the questions were of an
unsuitable character, and illustrated his views by quoting
several of these questions. Amongst these was one which
a candidate for the civil service in India was required to
answer, namely, as to his knowledge of the respiratory or-
gans of the spider. Ha noncluded. h rativinetha rarbinfinn
of the vote by £6OO for salaries in connection with the
examiner's department.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER defended
the present system of examination, and said that the an-
swers to the questions were not a vital element to the suc-
cess of the candidate, being merely intended to test the
general intelligence of those applying for situations in the
public service. He adverted to the fact that the commis-
sion appointed by that house had decided, after careful
inquiry, that the objections to the system were unfounded,
and recommended its extension, as conclusive on the
subject.

After some further discussion the amendment was nega-
tived without a division, and the vote was agreed to.
On the vote of £17,500, to defray the expenses of her
Majesty's Paymaster-General,
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY wished to have the office placed
on an intelligible footing, and that the Paymaster-General
should be made really the officer to pay the different public
services.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER explained
that the Paymaster-General also discharged the duty of
President or Vice •President of the Board of Trade. The
Paymaster-General endowed, out of his income, the latter
office, which might be considered the working department,
and from which he did not derive any salary. He could
not hold out any hope of an alteration being made in regard
to the office of Paymaster-General.
£6,330 was voted for the expense of the Comptroller-
General's Office.
On the vote of £3,559 for the office of public works, some
discussion arose, which was abruptly terminated, it being
10 minutes to 4 o'clock. ,
WINE LICENSES.
In answer to Mr. E. JAMES,

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
659 licenses for refreshment houses in London had been ap•
plied for under the new act, but that number did not in-
clude Kensington or Hammersmith. Only 129 applications
had been made for wine licenses.

The sitting was suspended' at four o'clock.
The house resumed at 6 o'clock.
NEW ZEALAND BILL.

Sir J. PAKINGTON gave notice that upon the motion
for the second reading of this bill he should prasent a peti-
tion, and make an appeal to the noble lord that he would
not proceed with the bill at so late a period of the session.
(Hear.)

WEIGHTS AND MEASURES (IRELAND) BILL,
In reply to Mr. HENNESSY,

Mr. CARD WELL said that the inspectors, of weights
and measures held their offices durante bene placito, and
such being the case, they would not be entitled to compen-
sation under the usual rules.

CONSOLIDATED FUND (i 10,000,000) BILL.
This bill was read a third time•and passed.
RAGGED SCHOOLS.

On the motion for going into committee of supply on the
education estimates,

Sir J. PAKINGTON rose to move—" That the grants
annually made by Parliament for the promotion of educa-
tion ought to be expended with fair and just regard to the
requirements of the different classes of schools recognised by
the minutes of the committee of council, and that ragged
and industrial schools, which are alone adapted to meet the
wants of a considerable number of destitute and neglected
children, are therefore entitled to a larger amount of aid
than they at present receiVe." Although he reserved to
himself the right of taking the sense of the house on the
motion if he thought it desirable to do so, his object rather
was to make an earnest appeal to the Government for a me,
dification of the rules under which grants were given to
ragged schools, which in his opinion did ant receive that
assistance to which they were fairly entitled. He could
understand the committee of council saying, "Our object
is to accomplish a maximum of good with the money placed
at our disposal. This money we give under certain condi-
tions, and we cannot give it to those who do not comply
with these conditions." He could understand that argument,
but the committee of council cut it from under them, be-
cause they not only recognised ragged schools but had in
the existing minute defined what ragged schools were, and
even the conditions on which alone assistance could be given
to them. Now what he found fault with was that whilst
they recognised ragged schools as a branch of education they
did not give to them that extent of assistance to which in
fairness, in justice, and in policy they were entitled. The
primary object of the large grants they were about to vote
was that the benefits of education might be extended to
those who were not able to bear the expenses of educating
themselves. They were about to vote £lOO,OOO for the pro.,
motion of science and art. He believed that thiS was a legi-
timate application of the public money, but he should ob-
ject to this vote as long as the Government refused money
to those whom he held to be the most destitute class of per-
sons in the country. (Hear.) The great complaint of those
by whose zeal, exertions, and liberality these schools were
established was that the minute which had been passed in
1856 respecting these schools had been repealed, and
another of a less favourable character substituted for it.
The minute of 1856 made large and liberal concessions.
Allowance was made under it for half the rent of the
of school, for a third of the cost of tools and raw materials ;
grants were a
suitable schoolmasters allowed for books, '
a grant maps and the preparation
t of half the salaries agreed
paid to the master
to be
and assistant masters, and a capi,

rnE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENING, AUGUST 15, 1860.

- -

The LORD-ADVOCATE said ho would consider the
clause.

The remaining clauses were agreed to, and the house re-
sumed.
WEIGHTS AND MEASURES (IRELAND) BILL.
This bill as amended was ordered to be read a third time.
SALE OF GAS BILL.
Mr. SHERIDAN said that he had given notice of cer-
tain amendments in this bill, which he wished to see made
a continuance bill. The hon. member concluded by moving
that October be substituted for July.
Mr. CRAUFURD objected to the amendment.
Sir G. C. LEWIS said if a bill of this kind were not
passed, the magistrates might inflict penalties which the
party upon whom they might be imposed would after-
wards come to the Home-office to remit.. He therefore
hoped the house would pass the bill in the form in which
it was now presented ; and for his part he should vote that
the word July be retained, and that October be not substi-
tuted for it.
The committee divided, when there were—

Ayes
Noes
Majority,
Mr. SPOONER, aft©r some observations by Mr. Sheri.
dun, moved that the chairman report progress.
The motion was agreed to, and the house resumed.
PLEA ON INDICTMENTS BILL.

On the motion that the house go into committee,
Mr. HENNESSY objected to the construction of cer-
tain clauses, and moved that the debate be now adjourned.
Sir G. C. LEWIS considered the bill of importance, and
hoped the house would proceed with it.
Mr, EDWIN JAMES hoped the house would not pro-
ceed with the bill, which was nothing but mere fragmen-
tary legislation. He should therefore support the motion
for adjournment.
Some discussion ensued upon the question usually put to
prisoners, " Are you guilty or not guilty ?"—a question
which not unfrequently proved embarrassing to the con-
sciences of
soofmpre m
prisoners.
by
Mr. MELLOR,
Mr. G. DENMAN said the bill consisted of one clause,
and the object of it was to provide that, instead of putting
the usual question of guilty or not guilty, the judge
should put the question, "Do you wish to be put upon your
trial ?"

Mr. LYGON moved that the bill be further proceeded
with on that day three months.
The house divided, and the numbers were—
For the motion .. 98
Against it
Majority against
The bill was consequently lost.
FELONY AND MISDEMEANOUR BILL.

On the motion that the Lords' amendments to this bill
be considered and agreed to,
Mr. EDWIN JAMES moved that those amendments
be disagreed to. The object of the bill was to secure to the
prisoner's counsel the power of summing up the evidence
for him. The question was a most important one, and it
should not be left to the caprice of a judge to say whether
the prisoner's counsel might er might not sum up the evi-
dence on behalf of the accused. He therefore begged to
move, that the Lords' amendments be disagreed to.
The SOLICITOR•GENERAL said he had some share
in the framing of this bill, but looking at the nature of the
Lords' amendments, he should prefer seeing the bill lost to
seeing it pass with such amendments.
The question was put, and Mr. James's amendment was
agreed to.
Mr. Mellor and Mr. G. Denman were then appointed a
deputation to hold conference with the Lords on the subject.
ROMAN CATHOLIC CHARITIES BILL.

On the motion for resuming the adjourned debate on the
amendment to clause 1 of this bill,
Sir GEORGE BOWYER moved as an amendment that
the clause be left out of the bill.
Mr. NEWDEGATE said, if the clause be omitted, it
would be in consequence of an arrangement made out of the
house ; and he trusted, if omitted, that the bill would not
be enrolled upon the statute-book.
Sir G. C. LEWIS did not think it likely that the house
would come to a conclusion to-night on this question, and
he begged, therefore, to move that the debate be now ad-
journed.
The debate was accordingly adjourned, and the other
orders having been disposed of,
1 The house adjourned at a quarter-past two o'clock.

SPORTING'. INTELLIGENCE.