The Sun.
London, England, 1860-01-25 00:00:00

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learned recently that the noble earl had been taking part in
a convivial meeting of some of his supporters at Manchester,
and the pith of the speech he made to them was that he
would support avery substantial reform, and that the ques-
tion must be settled during the present session. Now, I
flatter myself that the measure which her Majesty's Go-
vernment will shortly be prepared to bring before the house
Will merit the title of a substantial reform.
Earl of DERBY—I never used the word " substantial."
If the noble earl is anxious to know what I really did say, I
may tell him it was just this—that I thought it important
that the question of reform should be settled during the
Present session, and that if the Government brought for-
ward a fair, temperate, and reasonable measure—such as I
apprehended they would—they should have no reason to
anticipate hostility from those who sat opposite to them,
but, on the contrary, I should be very glad to give them
my support. (Hear, hear.)
Earl GRANVILLE—I am delighted to hear the noble
earl's resolution, and can only say that I have been de-
luded, like himself, by the report of a telegram. I cordially
concur in the very just compliment which the noble earl
next paid -to the volunteer movement in this country—a
Movement which has met with the cordial encouragement
and support of her Majesty's Government. (Hear, hear.)
There is only one perfect test by which to measure the
utility of this movement, and that is the invasion of our
shores, which I trust and believe, though, of course, one
cannot be certain on tnat point, would fully confirm our
opinion of its value. That this movement will be of the
greatest use I cannot for a moment doubt, but of how much
,use will depend on a variety of circumstances—on how
the volunteers go steadily on in the same spirited,
resolute way in which they began, and are now en-
gaged in perfecting their training for the work they have
Undertaken, on the degree of organization applied, to this
large force, on the discipline and obedience displayed by
them, and on the readiness of officers of the regular army
to avail themselves of this powerful instrument, placed
ready to their hands. Though I have no doubt in my own
rabid of what will be the result, this is as yet only a matter
of conjecture, and has never been put to the proof ; but
What is certain is, that already the spirit shown by these
volunteers has had a great effect upon foreign nations.
(Hear, hear.) I believe that, while it is generally acknow-
ledged to be a perfectly unexceptionable movement on our
Part—purely and entirely defensive in its nature, and im-
possible to be diverted to purposes of attack,—no two things
have raised the sirestige of this country more than, first of
all, that marvellous resistance offered by a small number
of military men and civilians in India against the millions
Who had been excited to rebel against our sway; and,
secondly, that sort of warlike spirit which has sprung up
among a nation certainly net military in its nature, and
Waich any power which might venture to touch or attack
Our shores—as I hope and believe none think of doing at
this time--would find very troublesome and disagreeable
indeed. (Hear, hear.) It is, I think, a matter of congra-
tulation that the time at which this movement is going on,
and an increase of our defences is being made, is one when
We are on good terms with our neighbours and other coun-
tries. If such steps were being taken at a moment of great
and sudden panic, such as certainly prevailed some months
.ago, it would stamp them with quite a different character ;
but. as it is, it leaves us clearly and unmistakeably in the
attitude of merely taking those measures of permanent and
reliable defence which the nation has a right to insist upon
that the Government should adopt, and which are intended
Merely to render us independent of any casualty which may
arise. (Hear.) The next point referred to by the noble earl
Waa, India ; and I entirely agree with what he has said on this
1311RieCt• I am especially glad to hear such a tribute of
t,.,ralse accorded to the moderation and judgment of the
ever Administration. The noble earl said that what-
-aPight have been the mind of the Government of India
-t,„.°.as to the proclamation as to Oude, subsequently the
been ctiens of the late Government .of her Majesty had
carried out in a most conciliatory manner. But it is
011. "13' Power to state what was the mind of the Government
India at that time, and that not from any private infer-
-3,11,,ati0n, but from that celebrated despatch m avtlich the
/evernor-General stated what his plans were with regard
to Oude, and expressly intimated that he had given the
alookdars to understand that the confiscation of the land
p
rag not to be regarded by them as a emanent derivation,
_ut merely as a means of placing in the hands of the Go-
-I.'l'lll3:lent the power of punishing or rewarding them aceord -
Lug to whether they joined the insurgents or cosoperated
with the Government in the restoration,and maintenance of
Ppeace. They were to understand particularly that titles
ing to them with the authority of the Government
_Would be much more substantial than the very insecure titles
Which they previously held, and that the acceptance of them
nild be coupled with conditions by which some guarantee
The
be taken for their quietness and goodwill. (Hear.)
of the
noble earl then reproached my noble friend on account
0.1
„., the commercial treaty with France, and wont into all ,
sorts of assumptions and calculations in regard to it, which
better acquaintance with the purport and details of the
`,..'aavention would, I am sure, have dispelled. Ix thinking i
over the probable points of attack which would be made use
rf against us, and bearing in mind the axiom delivered by
fault oble earl last year, that when one was bound to find ,
~she was sure to be able to do so, I had no doubt that some
:7,1,1_:48 in our policy would be selected as vulnerable. I
Which
pretty closely the style of objection to this treaty
t lach he has actually assumed, and which I might charac-
t!ritted as the very purism of free trade. (Hear, hear,) I
mo aye really no ground for knowing what the noble earl's
I.l),lcions may be at this moment on free trade and protection. ;
believe the last speech on this question which he made ,
this house was one in which he deferred to public
°Pinion, although he prophesied national ruin, and even.
aPPealed to the Freetraders to know how far the gratifica-
tion of their vanity would prompt them to carry the dasola- '
tion of the land. (Laughter.) Well, I thought we should
arrive at what his principles were. He broached two prin-
ciples, one that laid down by the noble earl, and the other ,
a strict reciprocity system. The first admitted certain con- '
casaien.s to free trade, but I remarked throughout the whole
argument the old anti-frestrade principle coming out strong; ,
Whenever he mentioned advantages, it meant always the
°d
r
vantages of sending out our goods to other nations, and
f what we should receive from them. (Hear.) A great
ts.'o kaf what was said by the noble earl was very true. He
lat,'Lwas bad for the nations of Europe to be continually
sea ii to see which could obtain the best terms, and he
ilatiosucit conceive anything more suicidal than when a
Wait 7 Considered a reduction good for itself that it should
fordin,„s the pleasure of another nation to make a correspon-
ke?.reduction. Our great difficulty was to make a corn-
tweed treaty at all. No human thing is perfect, but sup- '
are:lT that our tariff was perfection itself, then perhaps it
isms° be suicidal to alter it; but supposing that there are
ler aveinents which can te introduced in our tariff,
be. ;11.1 it comes to be discussed it will be seen that it would
as " height of pedantry to refuse to insert those amend- 1
EV, •
leun 113. any treaty when by so doing you extend to an
poss.-4118e amount the commercial intercourse with so im-
ki‘ant a country as France. Nobody doubts that there
14,_great disadvantages to theiemercantile and commercial
hetarests of France under the present system, but it would ,
Ih.su advantage to both aides to remove them. I happened
'accident lately to read a speech of Sir R. Peel, in which
France, that he favoured a better understanding with
taai'lee, because it would lead to a more extended commer-
aitz. intercourse, which would have the effect of increasing
bat mutual prosperity, as well as of-promoting goodwill
ween the two countries. Now we are assured that
the effect of the treaty will be to introduce a more libe-
s,ZaYstem in France, combined with improvements in the
Cueing of our tariff and and it would be a monstrous thing
d.ha'ow away the oubted and immense advantage
hick increased commercial intercourse would confer upon
tt.
h,„ nations in the increased security for the maintenance
to Peace. It is true that we may have close commercial in-
ere and yet go to war with anothernation.; yet where
thatgreat commercial intercourse there will also be
fuid a large body of persons whose personal interests will
I,6ied them to uae their utmost efforts to avoid that which
°WA destroy their profits. The other question—that of
iiib.
onus—broached by the noble earl is one which of course
hslimpossible for mo to enter upon now, as no one can ea-
r, ~tne to anticipate the statement of the Chancellor of the
Noble'q upon this difficult and important subject. The
earl suggested that this treaty had been managed by
" te act as a sort of firework to produce an effect at the
!petting of Parliament, but I can assure him nothing of the
sort is the case. There is no secret about it. A distin-
guis&
te • . man, Mr. Cobden, having, to my regret, declined
0.,.1.0in the present Government, for certain reasons of his.
"u• went to Paris, and I think it reflects wonderful credit
t°n that gentleman, and is an extraordinary circumstance,
after
having by his influence and eloquence exercised
helatilye effect upon a free country to adopt a certain policy,
fess °O7ll enabled to exercise a similar influence upon a
blatitWutelligent men at the head of a wholly different
in this of Government. (Hear.) I do think the error
adulationlulfttrY„ has been that sometimes there has been an
gviotnuepteoraetiitohnie Emperor of the French, and at others a
him and his acts. I believe I have never
taste as wen a ettreme, which are equally ofensive to good
I think this aet—o
efethe most beneficialher considerations, but I must say that
be
f t Emperor, which, I believe will be one
one of his best acts,
to the country he reigns over, has
acts, and one which I have no doubt re-
!! ed great moral courage to perform. (Hear.) The noble
rquis had referred to the representations of certain Protec-
tionists in France, which afford a proof of the immense force
Which a strong organisation offers to acts of this kind.
There may at first be a feeling against reductions in favour
of other nations, but the story of Sam Slick is quite appo-
site. He left clocks at cottages. not for sale, but when he
returned he found the cottagers had become, from their
use, so alive to the value of the clocks that t hey would not
Part with them. A greater freedom of commercial inter-
course on the part of Frence would have another effect, for
it would show to other nations that there was nothing
Peculiar in the institutions and position of England which
rendered free trade possible for it, since so great a conti-
nental nation as France had taken the same course. The
4,_bait subject touched upon by the noble earl is the subject of
the amendment, viz., China ; ands,' am rather embarrassed
Lhow to deal with it. It appears to me that the question of
Whether wo were right or wrong in not calling Parliament
Nether upon that subject has been so completely answered
ahby the noble duke near me (the Duke of Newcastle) and by
e noble earl apposite (the Earl of Derby) that I need not
~Itenapt to repeat their arguments. But then comes the
""'"eral question of China, upon which both the noble earls
Professed their intention not to enter, but using the usual
eti'latorical figure, said they would not say the thing which
th?3',lmeant to say, and which they did say nevertheless. I
141:1; however, I judge rightly the feeling of the house if
_ Postpone my remarks upon the subject until a future and
nere fitting occasion, and I hope the noble earl, having
Ett opportunity of expressing his sentiments, will not
atZEfs the amendment he has moved. I next come to the
.i:,ty.lect of the Congress. The noble earl has spoken of the
rfect information he possessed upon the subject, but a
" friend near me assures me that further details will be
speedily laid before the house. The noble earl referred to
cariousaat statements gathered from various sources, and
(4,4? me for an answer to them. I must say the whole
eOrea absolutely without foundation. (Hear, hear.)
i„'tta aware of any sort of negotiation or proposition
,aslugust such as he alluded to. I have no official
s'utuannunication as to any offensive or defensive treaty,
tiot.Pe,rhaps the best way of answering all these ques-
fette"a bY stating that the Government is perfectly
to ered' free from any pledge or engagement, or guarantee
eonZ:Sh any nation sshatever. (Hear, hear.) Then there
the noble question of our going into Congress at all, which
wereearl deprecates. I will state shortly what the reasons
cae..l7"s• t nich
In du
refused, the Government to consent to go into the
lkapi;en w had one of two things would have
an„, ed—either the Conorress would not have me, and then
rcoeflnylication. s which arose would have been imputed to
aissat.aaal ; or the Congress would have met, and whatever
have efaction Italy might entertain as to its results would
not
_eel?, brought home to us. I believe it will be found that,
W.,u,ations as with individuals, in political opinions there is
to them thing as a secession from duties natural y belonging
and ar. SnPposing that_the Congress had met without us,
t ) .),td conclusions respecting the Italian people opposed
addres`seecilngs, what ans wer could we have made to reproaches
to us that we had neglected to use the influence
/kWateal:l4lly belonging to usupon so interesting a subject ? And
We are asked under couditions we would go into

Congress there is the simple answer in her Majesty's Speech
which has made known to Europe that the condition was non-
interference by arms in the affairs of the Italian people.
(Hear.) We thought it necessary to preserve perfectly free
action in the Congress, so that we might either retire or take
any other line we thought proper ; but to say that other na-
tions had got into a difficulty, and they might get out of it as
they could, would have been a selfish sort of policy, accompa-
nied with great discredit and fatal effects to this country.
(Cheers.) With regard to the future, I believe that our policy
is very simple. I do not believe that the settlement of Italy is
a very simple one. The various interests and feelings in
Italy make the settlement a very difficult subject (hear, hear)
—but the policy of this Government is, I think, as clear and
simple as noonday. Indeed, I agree with all the noble
earl has said as to using our influence to prevent armed
interference with a country dealing with her own inter-
nal concerns. (Hear, hear.) As long. as we do that our
influence will have a great effect, and it we obtain the result
we seek, we shall obtain that which is the real in-
tdrast of England, and also consistent with the real
interest of Europe—viz., the maintenance of a condition of
things likely to insure lasting peace. (Cheers.) With regard
to separate negotiations it is clear that.if we move at all and
there is no congress, it must be by separate negotiations; but
I can assure the noble earl that the interpretation of that
paint which he has suggested is entirely without foundation.
The noble earl has put to me questions which I do not feel
called upon to answer. He has asked me to explain what is
the necessity of the temporal power of the Pope. In a great
deal which fell from the noble earl I entirely, concur. lam
sorry to see a tendency among Catholics, and even among
some Protestants, to treat it as a religious question. Ido not
think it is a religious question. (Hear, hear.) I think it is a
purely political question, and I am sure that, as far as the
Government is concerned, it is their duty to treat it as a purely
poll Heal question. (Hear, hear.) At the same time I think
it very natural the Catholics should feel an interest in the
state of their spiritual head, and wish to see what guarantee
there is of his independence of lay sovereigns. But, from the
sort of accusations made against the Government by some of
these gentlemen, one would suppose that the I'ope was in
peaceful possession of large States, with a perfectly cont e t‘d
popula'ion, and that her Majesty's Government were about to
deprive him of some portion of those States. The case is
exactly the reverse. All that we do ask, free from any re-
ligious feeling, but in accordance with the political feeling
of an enormous majority of the people of this country, is
what has been eloquently laid down by the noble earl—
viz., non-intervention in the internal affairs of other
countries ; and all that we wish is to leave the inha-
bitants of those countries to settle among themselves
what form of government they choose and what sort of
administration they wish to adopt. (Hear, hear.) I be-
lieve these principles will be shown by the debate to-
night to be very generally adopted in this house. (Hear,
hear.) I was very much struck with the feeling manner in
which the noble lord alluded to the death of one among
us. It is one of the melancholy incidents of each
meeting of Parliament that we miss faces we have known,
either the faces of political friends or of respected opponents,
and tais year has been no exception to the rule. It is very
difficult not to allude to the fact that of the four perhaps most
eminent modern historians of Europe and America, whose
deaths we have seen within a year, one of them should have
been a member of your lordships' house. It singularly illus-
trates the elasticity of our constitution, and while I know he
felt proud to belong to this house, I believe few among us do
not feel pride that his name should be upon the roll of peers.
(Hear, hear.) I know that in accepting a peerage it was his
intention to take part in our debates, and it was only that
malady which prematurely cut him off which prevented his
adding much distinction to our discussions. All know his
writings ; many know his private conversation, and I believe
you will agree with me there were no greater characteristics
of that poble lord than his pride in the past history and his
faith in the future destiny of his country. (Cheers.) With
these feelings I am sure all here will agree to this Address,
more particularly that portion of it which refers to the con-
tentment, loyalty, improvements in social life and diminu-
tion of mime which year by year must add so much not only
to the material prosperity but the moral force of this country.
(Loud cheers.)
The Earl of DERBY asked whether the Government could
give any information as to the period when the French troops
were likely to be withdrawn from Rome, or if they remained,
upon what terms they would remain.
Earl GRANVILLE said it was impossible to give an
answer.
Earl GREY said he would not withdraw his amendment,
but he would not give their lordships the trouble to divide.
He had listened in vain for any instances of an expedition like
this to China being fitted out upon the simple sanction of the
Government, without the early concurrence or authority of
rarliament

The Duke of NEWCASTLE said he had given the instances
of Portugal and Greece.

Earl GREY said they were not precedents, and repeated
that this was the first time such an expedition had been fitted
ou....without the concurrence of Parliament.

The amendment was put and negatiyed.
The motion for an Address was agreed to. A committee
was appointed to draw up the Address, and their lordships
adjourned at 11 o'clock until Thursday.

HOUSE OF COMMON—(YESTERDAY.)
The home resumed at a quarter to four o'clock.
NEW MEMBERS.

Several new members took the oaths and their seats.

MEMBERS OF THE JEWISH PERSUASION.

Lord J. RUSSELL moved the adoption of the usual re-
solution in accordance with the act of Parliament for the
admission of Jews into Parliament, which was agreed to.
Sir FRANCIS HENRY GOLDS3IIDT then took the oaths,
and his seat for Reading.