The Sun.
London, England, 1860-02-21 00:00:00

anent of fact, because it may be a matter of opinion, and the
right hon. gentleman is likely to entertain his own opinion
on the construction of the treaty; but, so far as dependence
Can be placed on the view of the Government, on the inten-
tion of the negotiators, whose careful consideration the
treaty long received, or on the best advice which was at
our command, or which we have yet had the opportunity
of receiving, this treaty ha, no bearing whatever on any
_rights that either of the Powers may possess with re-
spect to contraband of war. (freer, hoar.) The power
to export, or to prohibit the exportation of coal
as contraband of war, is as clear and entire, in the view of
the Government, as it was before the treaty was signed.
(Cheers.) lam glad to see that lan oheered by the hon.
and learned gentleman the member for Belfast ; it is rather
unfortunate that he was the only gentleman whom the
right hon. member for Buckinghamshire had the opportu-
tunity of consulting last night, or the matter might have
been settled. (Hear, and laughter.) Passing from these
points, which are oollateralto the main issue, let me collect.
if I can, into a short spacewhat I understand to be the main
propositions of the right hon. gentleman. lie says that we
have withdrawn the treaty from the cognisance of the
house and that we have Parliament in such a position that
it cannot exercise its due constitutional liberty of discussion
—he says that we have done this in total abandonment of
the precedent of Mr. Pitt ; and he complains that we have
committed a gross error by mixing up the treaty with the
financial arrangements for the year, which he says ought to
be kept sedulously apart; and lastly, he expresses his wish
that we could agree with dignity to the present motion. I
am bound to say that I feel great difficulty on the score of
dignity, but likewise—without any reference to that con-
sideration--I feel the most conclusive objections to the mo-
tion which the right hon. gentleman has made. In the
first place, I do not knew what that motion means ; and I
am further so rash and presumptuous as to express a belief
that the right hon. gentleman himself is equally ignorant
of its meaning. For it seems to me that he declines to go
into committee on the Customs Acts till the house has as-
sented to the engagements of the treaty What does the
resolution mean? If the right hon. gentleman asks me
What I mean by assenting to the engagements of the treaty,
I can inform him. He entreats the house in the strongest
manner, and with a moat remarkable inversion of what, if
not common sense, at least of what convenience dictates—
when you have one article of a general character, and
another specific and precise in its terms, he asks you to take
no notice of the article that can bear only one construction,
and consider the article that, if it stood alone, might really
raise some doubt as to the sense of the treaty. We are told
that the validity of the treaty depends on the 20th article,
which says—
" The present treaty shall not be valid unless her Bri-
tannic Majesty shall be authorised by the assent of her
Parliament to execute the engagements contracted by her
in the articles of the present treaty."
But now turn to the 14th article. It says—
" The present treaty shall bebinding for the United King-
dom of Great Britain and Ireland so soon as the necessary
legislative sanction shall have been given by Parliament."
That article is perfectly specific ; it defines completely the
nature of the sanction of Parliament—the only sanction
Parliament can give—that is, its legislative sanction. It is
the 14th article that requires for the present treaty what
kr. Pitt required for his—the legislative sanction of Faille.
meld. And if the right hon. gentleman observes the con-
struction of the treaty, he will find that the engagements of
Great Britain are contained in the 6th, 6th, 7th, and follow-
ing articles, and that before the 14th article the special en-
gagements of Great Britain terminate. Then the 14th article
explains in precise and distinct terms how the treaty shall
become binding for Great Britain, that is, as soon as the
sanction of Parliament is given to it—its legislative sanc-
tion—by the final passing of an act, by which alone that le-
gislative authority can be conferred. Then, after the 14th
article, come the speciai French engagements; then the 20th
Which says that the treaty shall not be valid—that is, not
valid for France—unless Parliament shall authorise the exe-
Taion of those engagements. (Hear.) What does the right
re• gentleman mean by this resolution ? It says that the
'alum ought not to go into committee on the Customs acts
until it shall have considered, and assented to, the en-
gagements of the treaty." What engagements? Does he
think the House of Commons ought to assent first to the
;engagement as to the Customs duties to be levied ad valorem
a the French ports ? I know not what idea the right hon.
r.itleman has of the functions of Parliament and the
I°wn ; but I deny his proposition. The power the consti-
tution has reserved to Parliament is this—it has fully see
cured to the House of Commons the right of giving its le-
gislative sanction to those parts of the treaty which requiretha t
sanction to have any effect ; next, the house has the
}lolre r of expressing to the Crown its general opinion of any
1.44 Y by means of an address; and, thirdly, it has the

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have been committed. (Hear, hear.) I make no complaint of power, if it disapproves any treaty, of visiting the au-
the right hon. gentleman; I merely state the reasons why thors of it with condemnation. (Hear, hear.) Does the
I shall pass by those portions of hisspeech. Neither shall I right hon. gentleman claim for Parliament any more than
at this time enter into a discussion on the constitution of this ? I cannot accede to his resolution, for, if I interpret
France, or the conditions on which the Deputies occupy
it grammatically, it asserts that the house is to pass a spe-
seats in that Legislative Assembly. (Laughter.) With cific consent to all the details of every article in the treaty.
the permission of the right hon. gentleman, I shall venture Does he mean this or does-he not ? In his speech the right
to reserve any share I may take in :that discussion hon. gentleman carefully avoided saying a single word in
till we come to the second reading of the Reform Bill pro-
explanation of the motion he has laid on the table of the
mised by my noble friend. (Cheers.) I proceed to the
house. Now, I contend that, so far from having withdrawn
this treaty fun). the cognisance of the House of Commons—
question which has been raised by the motion of the right
Commons—
hon. gentleman, and, notwithstanding that the point is, I safer from having abandoned the precedents of Mr. Pitt, we
think, a narrow one, I at once admit that it is of great im-
have founded our course of proceeding in every substantial
portance. And here I must beg to tender my thanks to the particular upon those precedents, with due allowance for
right hon. gentleman. He says we have caused the Queen
those changes of circumstances in the condition of the coun-
to commit an unconstitutional and illegal act, and that we try, and in our own system of commerce, which have oc-
curred since his time. (Hear, hear.) What was the course
are pursuing a course which may end in the invasion and
taken by Mr. Pitt ? He mentioned the treaty of 1786 in the
abrogation of the privileges of the Hone eof Commons. If
this be so, I must say that I never kneer a better opportu- Speech from the Throne, which was not done on this occa-
sion. But the treaty of 1786 was signed four months before
occa-
nity for a broad change on the part of a loader of the Oppo-
sition ; but such is the chivalrous conduce of the right hon. the opening of Parliament. And, considering that the right
gentleman that, casting over us his proteceing arm, he says imom'egauttelemcoanutahcr wirticilffie etersadtehaandhac`o-empmlaecrecde hoifmtte
n
—" I have no doubt at all this was done in pure inadver- country. I was a little surprised to hear him recommend
tense." That is really the finest example of the great duty strict adherence to the letter of the precedents in the case of
to which some of us yesterday were particularly exhorted.-- Mr. Pitt's treaty, in complete defiance of their spirit.
I mean the duty of Christian charity—(laughter, and loud iraetaar,mhoeraer.lLDairddit not occur
croutV-hneotrifjhotahr.izittloenaz
cheers)—that I have ever seen exhibited in this house. I House of Commons, proposaltan that Governmentu should advise
cannot accept the apology which the right hole gentleman the Sovereign to execute a treaty of this kind—a treatyacting
has kindly made for us, any more than, on the part of the largely on the revenue, and still more largely on the trade
Government, I can accept the motion which he has placed and commerce of the country—and, bye mistaken adherence
on the books, and which he thinks we might, not only with tt
oo formerelase etw precedents,between
tthe
to
publicationalla o intervalftimo f
tsreavaetralanmtienteast
propriety, but "with dignity," accept. The dignity of the legislative' sanction which alone can enable merchants and
Government is a matter on which different gentlemen in traders to act upon it ? (Cheers.) The right hon. gentle-
differenf situations mayhavedifferentopinions—(laughter)— moan has vindicated the memory of Mr. Pitt ; I hope the
but I confess that if we have been guilty of a course in- houseat does not suppose I wish te, depreciate it; I entertain
volving the consequences mentioned by the right hon, gen- general opinion
ospeinnsieonot'th extraordinaryr of advancement eLmeentanirdi
the
and eundersta
tleman, if we have gravely erred in our duty to the House of great vigour displayed by Mr. Pitt in concluding that
Commons, we can lay no claim to the helping hand which treaty. Let the opinion of the pi esent operations with re-
the right hon. gentleman holds out to us ; ours ceases gard to our trade and commerce be what they may, we
to be the attitude of those who claim an unsullied dignity, shall deserve little credit or honour compared with that
but is rather the situation of penitents dependent on an ad- prejudice,
ejutgicMe Mr.
proposed Pitt,
twho,o
ahnadv having
obtained
confronte
d tiassent sueh
of,a masspari of
Yersary for their delivery. (Hear.) But I contend the right ment to so great a measure as his treaty with France.
hon. gentleman is correct neither in his facts nor in his (Hear, hear.) Well, Mr. Pitt mentioned thatetreaty in the
principles—(laughter)—and that the course which we have Speech from the Throne ; the present treaty has not been
adopted is that which is dictated by general propriety, by a so
omentioned. Why not? Because it was not within our
fiandalteand vis
signed,on
regard to the privileges of the House of Commons, and like- tileletTrendroAit,hatestpeimeejletrhaAtlajesty
the trewaatys
wise by that which he has never mentioned, but which un- much less ratified. (Hear.) The right hon. gentleman,
doubtedly has been much in the minds of the Government therefore, out of veneration for Mr. Pitt, thinks we ought
—namely, a regard to the interests of those great branches been signed. (Hear.) He says we ought to have made
to have recommended to Parliament a treaty that had not
of trade out of doors which are dependent on the result and known this treaty to the House of Commons by a message
despatch of our decision. (Cheers.) I will give an instance from the Crown. On all points of Parliamentary lore we
or two to show what I moan by my allegations. The right will freely submit to receive correction; but as to this mes-
hon. gentleman says the resolutions introduced by Mr. Pitt saget trferoaltilestheorf coown%esrucceh
wisenravoeurmair
during the
O caaaltl
were essentially large and general, and totally incapable of century—treaties so numerous as to be almost innumerable
forming the foundations of a financial measure. Here is an --I do not recollect that any one was made known to this
enormous book from which we do not often quote directly, house by a message from the Crown. There is, I admit,
on account of its unmanageable size, but it contains the re- the case of the Treaty of - Utrecht, which was so made
known to the House of Commons ; but it should be recol-
solutions proposed by Mr. Pitt, and the house will judge
lected that the commercial portion of that treaty formed
how far they are large and general. part of the same transaction as the treaty of peace. (Hear.)
Mr. DISRAELI—Mr. Pitt's description of them. And, with regard to treaties bearing on peace and war,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—I do not they
should be made known to the house and the vital condition of Europe, it is
the practice that
apprehend that Mr. Pitt is responsible for the publication of sage. But whether we are right or bywrong in a Royalying mes -
that day, whatever we may be for Hansard in ours. Here treaty presented by command, or by a Royal message, a
are the resolutions; I will take one as a fair example : which we should have heard with our hats off, and that is
"That it appears to this committee to be expedient that the tihaealrnaln point of difference between the two modes—how,
oaensdthsiamerootonof
of
fecgvie nhgouthaee
itreaZ bear. on tel
duty hereafter to be paid on vinegar—(laughter)—of the liberty
produce or manufacture of the European dominions of the (Cheers.) What can the house do in repuly to discussing
aussmufssalgt e
French King imported into this kingdom shall be at the rate from the Crown that it cannot do upon papers presented to
of £3218x. 10d. on every ton containing 252 gallons." Now, it "by command ?" Really, the question is puerile
there is a specimen of a large and general resolution inca- (Cheers.) If we cannot present an address on papers pre-
pable of forming the foundation of a financial measure, sentedcannot we pass resolutions upon them and on those
resolutions
found an address ? (Hear, hear.) And then.
(Laughter.) Give me that resolution, or resolutions analo- we shall have the advantage of a double debate—a de-
gous to it, on the duties which we propose to the house, and bate on each resolution, and another on the address itself.
you will *soon see whether they are capable of forming the The right hon. gentleman complains that the time allowed
t
foundation of a financial measure. It was also said by the to the house to consider the treaty has been too small and
right hon. gentleman—and Ido not wish to quote him other- scanty,respec taon dt
hree
ttrse toal theow allowed by
It madefobry
trer .e
oFnosldwith
wise than with the utmost accuracy—that the treaty of Mr. tion of his treaty. I shall be very curious to hear, in the
Pitt contained no provisions other than those of a commer- course of these discussions, up to what point the right hon.
ial, character or relating to duty. Why, the very second gentleman is anxious to support the opinions of Mr. Fox as
article of that treaty is one providing what shall happen to the treaty; but they are not very relevant to the present
casprea,asttheer we e
mnoitavco tatedtn aview of er atlniitted by the House.
with respect to personal safety and the security of the sub-
[frankly admit the necessity of
jects of each Power resident in the dominions of the other despatch' n this case that differs from the view of Mr. Pitt
in the event of war. That is neither a stipulation of corn- on the same point; and I apprehend, were Mr. Pitt living
coerce nor one of duty; and I quote it because it appears to now, amid the present development of our commercial sys-
t
ate that the right hen. gentleman amidst his researches has em, he would not trouble his brain aboutthe time and dates
of the intervals between the different stages of his treaty,
not had sufficient time to examine the instrument which he but rather with the exigencies of all the great interests in-
has taken the trouble to criticise. Ho says after Mr. Pitt volved in it. What I should like to know is the use of
passed the resolutions in committee on the treaty they were quoting Mr. Fox in tho matter. Mr. Fox did not demand
delay because he was nots;o ready to go on vcrith the discussion
submitted to a committee on the Customs Acts. I bog the
pardon of the right hon. gentleman, they were submitted, as
of wine,
he men satlilipanoscee woo': uoult).arntairlar
not to a committee on Customs Acts, but to a committee on enemy, and that the measure of Mr. Pitt was one which
the simplification of the public accounts in their various struck at the root of the constitution of this country—or
branches, which I venture to point out to the house is quite rather at the root of the power of the executive in the con-
another matter. The next thing in which I think the right duet
.of its relations with foreign Powers. Basing his op-
hon. gentleman was entirely in error, and which requires paoeTtionasuirionng ground,tfhoratdelay. ;tioot daooubt
ohweevwerastrerfot3icgtlltjthisotni•-•
but a single word from me, was with respect to the charge gentleman opposite, who imitates the mere skeleton and
against the Government of having, by their ill-advice, led phantom of the proceeding of Mr. Fox, and makes use of a
the Crown to commit an unconstitutional and illegal ace, quotation to satisfy his purpose in debate, utterly forgetful
by engaging not to exercise for a period of 10 years the
of its substantial meaning. (Cheers.) Well, Mr. Pitt pro-
posed a committee of the whole house on the commercial
power whick Parlialeent has put into the hands of the treaty with France, and her Majesty's present advisers,
Crown, with the evident intention that it should be exer• After maturely considering the question whether they
deed at any time during or beyond 10 years, if sufficientoe • should take the same course, came to the conclusion that
easion to justify it should arise. That is to say, we have Kr. Pitt was perfectly right in the form which he gave to
stipulated not to prohibit the exportation of coal to France, hwirsoirg.ffeeduniudge' but r
that they
osteoauthuhrseu beliattbosnoluttely
whereas her Majesty is authorised to prohibit by proclansa- had adopted the same form under a state o scircumstances)
tion or Order in Council the exportation, or even carrying entirely different. (Hear.) I may perhaps be treading onten •
der ground in dealing with the forms of this House, but the
(leastwise, of arms, ammunition, gunpowder, military or
naval stores, or any articles which may be deemed capabie view we took of the matter was this, that Mr. Pitt's legisla-
tion
ma wasof ahlieagtirset legislation nwienrliterallyfavoure
reFrenchreao il)treocil lincetitothreastotihue
includes, or may, under certain circumstances, be held to tions which he submitted to the House p
of Commons, and
include, coal as an article which is capable of being con- that it was therefore competent to him to take the course
verted into munitions of war, the right hon. gentleman says which he adopted. But now let me ask whither the right
we have abandoned our right to prohibit the export of coal hon. gentleman thinks it would be consistent with the public
welfare or convenience, or with what after what has fallen
as a contraband article. Ido not. treat that as a mis-state- from the right hon. gentleman to-night with respect to free-
trade principles I may call the universal opinion of this
house, that we should have come before Parliament and
proposed an exclusive legislation in favour of French pro-
ducts ? Every hon. member's good sense must supply him
with the ready answer to such a question—that such a
course would bo quite impossible. (Hear, hear.) Yet that
was the only course which was open to us if we had pro-
posed a committee of the whole house on the treaty with
France. We could not have asked the house to go into
committee on the treaty, and then in that committee enter
into questions of commercial legislation which aro beyond
its scope. (Hear, hear.) We could not ask you to go into
committee on the subject of French wines, and then call
upon you to sanction not the admission of those. wines only,
but that of the wines of all countries alike. (Hear, hear.)
I now want to know who are those who act in reality in the
spirit of Pitt. (Hear, hear.) He was a statesman who
endeavoured to push forward the commerce of the country
by great and enlightened changes in her laws, and in order
to effect that object he took a course which 1 believe to
have been entirely in conformity with Parliamentary law
and precedent. We are endeavouring—l shall not say to
compare ourselves with him, for of Mr. Pitt it may indeed
be said with truth, Nee viget quidquam simile aut secumlum,
—but, following up the work which he was among the
first to begin, we, too, seek to accomplish something in the
same direction. (Bear.) It is with that view that we pro-
posed to you that you should resolve yourselves into a come
mittee to deal with the subject matter which we had to
submit to your notice. We, in short, have sought to act
in accordance with the spirit of Mr. Pitt's policy, and not
regarding it from an antiquarian point of view---(a
laugh)—to snatch at its dry form as you in your blind
superstition--(Cries of "Oh, oh!")—I ask your pardon,
and will use a phrase less exceptionable—your pardonable
error—would have us do, wasting your ingenuity, and elo-
quence, and declamations in the endeavour to impress upon
our notice what is, after all, but the mere letter of this
ancient formula, in contempt of its spirit. (Cheers.) I have
pointed out to you the course which was taken by Mr. Pitt.
The House of Commons at his invitation went into com-
mittee on the French treaty, and what did he then propose ?
Precisely that which we are going to propose ; he did not
submittheeng
knewagem hisents duty a
of his treaty
a on
coinbertitthuetiassael mntoiiiste
fPkr;
Par-
liament, for he
too well to place the clauses of the treaty in the hands of
the Speaker, or of the clerk at the table, and ask the House
to come to a decision upon tkem. He did not hold the doc-
trine of the right hon. gentleman opposite, that, although
the Queen may make a treaty on paper, it rests with Par-
liament to ratify its provisions. (Mr. Disraeli—" I used
the language of Mr. Pitt.") Then I can tell the right hon.
gentleman that there is a wide difference between the lan-
guage of Mr. Pitt and his acts. It is not a little remark-
able that ho should have propagated such a doctrine as the
right hon. gentleman ascribes to him at the very moment
when, having invited the attention of a committee of the
House of Commons to the treaty with Franee, he submitted
apar
most
treatyanoonlysisanction.
:vnehi
to the consideration of that committee no portions of the
r,
nottdtaoohr
b.o)sseue bringobluswv:
substantial
under
crtdsaihaetirtdai
tnibirhtgs
parts
untuaspotnetooidl
ttfcy requirednotice
hiohtfehe
opr without
esarsilenrlegislativespirit
Parliament
of his
xt. eael
difficulty,de it
to take the course which we desired to follow, for that, if the right interposingto treatyt hl
de;
hon. gentleman had permitted us
have been the direct effect of our proceeding.. Indeed,wu I
point requiring legislative
there
doubt very muchwhethersanction
ns treaty one
h
single '
issaninett
not embraced in the
given notice, except, perhaps, that with respect to trade
patterns. (Hear, hear.)
Now, if I
understand the
right hon. gentleman opposite correctly, ho seems to look
upon it as a great offeucethat Ministers should advise the
Sovereign to enter into a treaty, and include in its provisions
matters requiring legislative sanction, without obtaining the
assent of Parliament. Let me remih' however, that
there have been Ministers who contracted engagementslm,
foreign Powers requiring direct legislative
with
and
who—perhaps through indifference—forgot taoaneku
legisla-
tive sanction to those engagements at all. The lastasexample
of such conduct on the part of a Government waswhe
treaty was entered into between her Majesty and a northern
Power, Power, by the 20th article of which the high contracting
parties being desirous to secure each within its own domi-
nions protection against fraud in the case of certain manu-
factured articles, her Britannic Majesty engaged to recom-
mend to Parliament to adopt the measures which might be
required to accomplish that object ; and I am sorry to be
obliged to add that the Government which advised the So.
vereign to enter into this engagement—the law at the time
being insufficient to effect the object whichthey had inview
—were so forgetful of their duty as never to have come to
Parliament at all to ask its assent to the treaty, not only
when they laid it on the table, but at any period during
their continuance in office. And who were the Ministers,
the committee will ask, who were guilty of so monstrous a
neglect of duty ? It was no other than that of which the right
hon. gentleman opposite was a member. (Cheers and
laughter.) But, to return to the proceeding of Mr. Pitt with
respect to the treaty, there are, I admit, some portions of it
which, up to this moment, we have not imitated. They, how-
ever, lie in the future, and it the right hon. gentleman will
but have a little patience ho will find that as up to this hour,
so at every future stage of this treaty, it is our earnest desire
to conform to the spirit of Mr. Pitt's policy. The right hon.
gentleman says that Parliamentis to be called upon, not till
after these resolutions have been passed in committee, to ex-
press its opinion upon this treaty as a whole, and to set forth
that opinion in an address to the Crown. Now, the Govern-
ment are, I apprehend, entirely free to take that course ;
but Mr. Pitt, be it observed, did not announce it to be his
intention to take any such course to the House of Com-
mons until they had
given their assent to the great stipula-