The Sun.
London, England, 1860-07-13 00:00:00

THE SUN, LUIuJON, FRIDAY EVENING, JULY 13, 1860.

portant announcement. It is an announcement of the view 1
which her Majesty's Government took of that transaction.
But I beg the house to remember that, while the noble
Foreign Secretary has made that significant statement as
to the recent policy of France, we have had the Chancellor
of the Exchequer announcing to us for weeks and months
past, with his extraordinary powers of eloquence, that no-
thing but peace and happiness were to flow from our corn-
mercial arrangements with that country, the policy of which
the noble lord tells us fills Europe with alarm and distrust.

,Hear, hear.) Which of these two Ministers is in the right

•• • •
I do not pretend to say, except to hint as delicately as I can
that I think it is the noble Foreign Secretary, and not his
colleague the Chancellor of the Exchequer. (A laugh.) As,
however, the noble lord has expressed his opinion, it is only

fair that the right hon. gentleman should have an oppor.

tunity of favouring us with the opposite view of the ques-
tion—Ca laugh)—and of depicting the general confidence
and tranquillity consequent upon the conclusion of the
French commercial treaty. I agree with the noble lord that

a policy of peace, to be pursued, I presume, consistently
with honour, is the policy worthy of a British Minister. I

was not in this house when the discussion took place upon
the conduct of Lord Minto ; but I have read what was said
on that occasion, and I learnt that the noble viscount de-
fended that noble lord from attacks then made upon him,
as I understand, by certain members of his present Admi-
nistration. (Hear.) It is a remarkable circumstance that

the hon. baronet should commend the patriotic spirit dis-
played by the volunteers of this country, and that the hon
gentlemen opposite should tell us that Europe is disturbed
by rumours of war, changes of dynasty, and possible revo-
lutions ; while for months past we have been assured by
the most eloquent members of the Ministry that if we only
acquiesced in his schemes we might calculate upon a secure
and prolonged European peace. (Hear, hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL explained that the right hon. gen-
tleman was perfectly right in saying he had declined giving
the information referred to in this motion, which he felt it
his duty to oppose.
Mr. MONSELL could not collect from the noble lord's
speech whether her Majesty's Government were encoura-
ging or discouraging the annexation of Sicily to Sardinia.
If the inquiry addressed to the noble lord had been whether
the Government were in favour of leaving the people of
Sicily to choose for themselves what form of domestic
government they would live under, the noble lord's speech
would have been perfectly satisfactory, and everybody pre-
sent might have concurred in it. That, however, was not
the question put by his hon. friend, who wished to know
whether the policy of annexing Sicily to Sardinia was to be
pursued, and whether the consent of her Majesty's Go-
vernment was again to be given to principles which must
lead to continual changes in the map of Europe, putting
every small State in perpetual trepidation lest it should be
transferred to some other Power.
Mr. GRIFFITH thought the hon. baronet opposite, led
away by his laudable feelings in favour of the liberties of
one country, had rather overlooked the rights and interests
of another. Dazzled by the light of the commercial treaty,
he and his colleagues had turned a blind eye upon the pro-
ceedings of France towards Sardinia and had given delusive
and evasive answers in the other House of Parliament ; but
since then nothing could be more suitable than the terms
in which the noble lord had expressed the policy of this
country.
The motion for an address for papers was then negatived
without a division.

whether everysixpence of the £580,000 which we took has not
been expended in making up the deficiency on the ordinary
estimates of last year? In the first place, net one sixpence of
that sum was appliceble to making up any deficiency which

might have occurred in the ordinary estimates of last year.
My gallant friend, who is well acquainted with these
matters, must have spoken without reflection, for he must
have known that you cannot apply one farthing of a vote of
credit to any purpose but that for which it was voted. You
cannot spend it in making up an ordinary deficiency in the
ordinary estimate of the year. If his vaticinations, there-
fore, should prove correct, which I trust they will not, the
deficiency will have to be made up by a vote next year,
specially taken to cover it. But so far from all that sum
being spent in that way, we have reason to believe that a
large portion of it still remains unexpended. We cannot
tell yet—until we receive accounts from China it is difficult
to say how much of that money has been spent. Some of the
regiments embarked later than we thought they would, and
rather than being all spent, I should say that there was a
surplus left on that vote. The gallant general also says that
he pointed out that we were quite wrong in our estimate,
that £820,600 followed by £500,000 would not be sufficient—

that the war would inevitably come on, and that the Indian
Government—and here he was right—would inevitably
send home many more troops than we had expected, and he
blames us for not having had the foresight to provide for
this. Nobody knows better than the right boa. gentleman
how much safer it is not to trust to private information. We
have reason to recollect the circumstances in which we were

placed in the last autumn. The state of India was anything
but satisfactory; nothing but gloom pervaded European
society in India ; and Lord Canning then said, in answer to
letters from myself, that he could not part with European
troops, and he could not say how soon a state of circum-
stances would arrive which would justify him in parting
with any great number of European troops. IV e listened
to that statement—we framed an estimate upon it. Great
changes took place in India. The pacification of Oude
seemed complete, and in consequence six battalions were
despatched from India, which induced us to withdraw the
estimate and to produce a revised estimate. I will not
go into detail upon the subject, but pass on to the observa-
tions of the hon. baronet the member for Evesham. And
there I must confess that to some great extent I agree with
him. But when he says that the estimate is unsatisfactory,
I am surprised that it is not to the amount that he takes ex-
ception—which I confess is unsatisfactory—but rather to the
manner and the time of proposing it. He says it is not made
in the shape we like or at the moment we like. He is silent
as to the amount, and I trust he will derive some consolation
from the extent of the estimate which is laid before the
house. In the committee upstairs, of which the right hon.
baronet the member for Carlisle was chairman, we took a
great deal of evidence withregard to the state of the account
pending between this country and India, and it was shown
to be extremely unsatisfactory. (Hear, hear.) I will read
just a passage from the report, because I wish to show the
principle upon which the Government have acted in apply-
ing for this vote of credit.
" The state of the account between the British Exchequer
and Indian territory is most unsatisfactory. The account for
the Persian expedition is not yet closed. Tho account of
the first China war is hardly completed yet. The account
of the second China war, which ended in 1856, is not yet ba-
lanced. There are four or five different accounts still open,
with disputed balances to a large amount; and with respect
to the new expedition to China, India, in the midst of the
great financial difficulties, has been required to make ad-
vances in the current year for all expenses incurred in tak-
ing up transports in India, in paying the men, and in pro-
viding cattle, horses, and other necessaries, as well as
equipments for the army. There does not appear to be any
estimate of the amount of these advances ; but while Indian
territory is overwhelmed with debt, it will be unseemly that
Great Britain should make war on China out of Indian re-
sources. The repayment of these advances ought to be
prompt, and within the present financial year."
(Hear, hear.) I entirely concur in every sentence in that
Passage of the report. This first estimate of £443,000 for
past transactions, which I will explain in a moment, is a
sum for which I am at any rate not in any way responsible.
(Hear.) It is an arrear owing to the East India Company.
The accounts have not been audited. The amount has
not been entirely agreed upon, but, as the East India
Company aro not so rich that they can overlook these
little debts, and as they are anxious we should pay them, it
is necessary to pay something to them on account of these
past transactions. Would it be seemly this year to make
war on Indian resources? I think not. (Hear.) I think
it is wise and right that we should lay before the House of
Commons, as far as we can form—l will not call it an esti-
mate, but a guess of what possibly may be the amount re-
quired to repay the Indian Government, and to pay the
army and navy engaged in these operations. The hon. bart.
says, " But you should give us this estimate in detail." I
do not think it is possible to give that estimate in detail. I
asked the East Indian Government to send me, not an ac-
count of the sums already expended for providing and
equipping the expedition, but an estimate of the sums so
expended, not, however in detail, because they do not know
the exact sums. They refused to send the information
officially, upon the ground that they ought not to send offi-
cially anything pretending to be an account which, after all,
was only an estimate of an account. I accepted that which
they would give unofficially, because I thought it very im-
portant that'the Government should lay before the house a
rough and approximate estimate of what it.o over. may ne.
I think it better to dispense with accuracy rather than
follow the system which has hitherto prevailed, of first
spending the money, saying nothing to Parliament, and
after all the transactions are ended coming to Parliament
to make good a deficiency over which they have no possible
check or control. (Cheers.) I will not weary the committee
by citing precedents, but I have carefully examined the
precedents of the votes for the China wars (that is, the first
and second expeditions), of the votes for the Caffre wars and
the Crimean war, and in every case I find a lump sum
voted as a vote of credit without details. The reason is
obvious. You cannot foresee in war what the expendi-
ture will be. You have in your estimates the actual cost
of the pay of the men. You may put an approximate esti-
mate of what it will be when the men are on Indian
allowances as well as English; you may put an ap •
proximate estimate of the cast of Indian native
troops, but you cannot make an estimate of the cost
of the fol ewers attached to these regiments. Therefore, if
I were to depart from the precedent of putting the estimate
n a lump sum I should depart from it for the purpose of
laying before the House an estimate which would be illusory,
and one which would deceive the House as to the sums
which they were voting. What is the use of laying items
before the House ? Obviously that the House may exercise
its discretion, and accept them or not—that they may put
their finger on one item and say this is too much—you have
too many troops, too many camp followers, too many coolies.
Then it turns out in practice that they are much less—that
the excess of expenditure is under some other head—and
thus the inference becomes as illusory as the subject to
which it is applied. (Hear, hear.) I may really say that
the very term " vote of credit" shows what is intended. It
is not an estimate—not sums of money approved by the
House of Commons—but a vote given in confidence to the
Government that they will spend it for purposes which are
requisite, to the best of their ability. (Hear, hear.) And I
do not believe we could carry on war otherwise, unless we
chose to accept knowingly, and with our eyes open, delusive
estimates, delusive criticisms, and delusive votes. (Hear,
hear.) I have in this case so far departed from precedent
that, instead of voting for the past, I am asking you to
vote for the future. According to practice, I might have
called upon the committee to vote £lOO,OOO or £500,000,
after peace has been made and broken and there is a fresh
war, but I think it much better to put the whole expenditure
before the House of Commons. (Hear, hear.) Let us
face it at once and see what will be the cost in the
course of the year, and should circumstances fortunately
occur which would lead to an easy termination of these
unhappy hostilities, we shall have so much to the
good. Probably the committee will not be afraid, as
the money cannot be applied to any other purpose,
and it will be very unfortunate if the money be not
applied to this. (Hear, hear.) First, I ought to state
what are the sums of which the items of £443,000
for past transactions are composed. In the last China
war there was an arrangement between the Treasury and
the East India Company that the Company should bear all
the ordinary charges of the force sent in aid of the expedi-
tion, but that they should be reimbursed by the Imperial
Government all extraordinary payments. The accounts
were settled a few years ago, up to 1847-48. We have still
the balance remaining unsettled, from 1848-49 to 18i8-59,
of £281,000, upon which questions will arise. We have
£82,000, on account of Indian military forces stationed in
China, and about £BO,OOO the estimated cost of Indian
native troops which form part of the garrison of Canton.
The great evil of the system, to my mind, is, that in point
of fact you have no power over the Executive as to the
number of troops you employ. You can vote every man
under the Mutiny Act, and not a man more can be em-
ployed as long as you do not vote more money for their
pay ; but if you employ Indian troops you have no check on
the amount, exceptlin the gross sum which you are after-
wards called upon to pay. No doubt there has been a very
wrong system, and part of this sum, no less than £82,000,
is for the cost of troops at Canton in the time of the gallant
officer opposite, and £BO,OOO is for troops up to the time
this war broke out. The present estimate, therefore, ap-
plicable to the war in which, I believe, unhappily we are
now engaged, is less than £3,800,000 by £443,009, which
sum applies to past transactions. The committee would
probably like to know the sums directly or indirectly voted
for the China expedition. In enumerating them I will
follow the form of the returns moved for by my right hon.
friend the member for Droitwich (Sir J. Pakington), who
asks what are the sums put upon the ordinary army and
navy estimates for 1860-61, which are applicable to the ope-
rations in China. Now, I believe that practically, except
in the large consumrtion of stores, the men are not neces-
sarily an increased charge for that expedition. We have,
for instance, nine battalions of infantry in China ; but, if
there were no Chinese war, one or two battalions would be
doing garrison duty abroad, and the other seven would
be in England, where they would be useful enough.
In the same way there would have been no considerable
disbandment of seamen in our navy had there been no war.
I will, however, give the information the hon. bart. re-
quires. The items in the army estimates for 1860-61 appli-
cable to the Chinese expedition were as follows : —Cost of
forces of all ranks, £399,588 ; clothing and necessaries,
£42,500; provisions, forage, fuel, light, &e., £22,740—,
total, £464,828. The navy estimates for 100-61 included

the following sums :—Hire of transports, £107,000 ; coals,
£76,000 ; freight of stores, £17,000 ; making, with provi-
sions, bedding, &c., £217,900; adding the pay of men in

China (X 463,000) it gave a total of £60,000: These two
totals in items in the army and navy estimates together

made £1,145,728. Of the vote of credit taken last year to
the amount of £850,000 the total apportioned for the army
_ _

was £578,638, and for the navy £268,452. These amounts,
together with the vote of credit for £500,000, give a grand

total of about £2,500,000.

We now come to the vote before

us. I have already explained that the sum of £443,896 in

arrear due to her Majesty's Government from the East

India Company has no relation to the China war. They
have so little confidence in the statement they have drawn
up that they have forwarded it to me, not officially, but
privately, as an approximation to the real amount. The

cost of horses, bullocks, and ponies comes to £88,600 ; am-
mußition, £16,000 ; advance of pay to the force on embar-
kation, £145,702 ; value of stores issued, £30,000. Alto-
gether, with the hire of the Indian Government steam-
ships, with rations and allowances to troops on board ship,
coals, &c., we have a total of £1,900,922. That is the