The Sun.
London, England, 1856-07-15 00:00:00

TEIE AFFAIRS OF ITALY.

Lord LYNDHURST then rose, pursuant to notice,
to call tattention to theaffairs of Italy. lie said—l have
for some time sought information from my noble friend
opposite on this subject, but my applications have been
uniformly refused, and I regret to say that we do not
very often succeed in obtaining information, or in pro-
curing papers to be laid before the British Parliament,
until they cease to 6e useful, and have no longer any in-
terest. Happily however in this case the sources of infor-
mation are abundant. Deplorable indeed is the situation
of Italy. Every man must deeply sympathise with the
condition of that unfortunate country. When my noble
friend first furnished the protocol of the Bth of April, the
world was taken by surprise. Italy expected great and
important advantages. I regret to say that these hopes
and expectations have been completely disappointed. I
have often questioned within myself the policy of that
publication, unless the governments of France and Eng-
land intended to follow it up, not by a mere inter-
change of diplomatic notes, but by other measures.
For, my lords, it is impossible that men can continue to
be under a foreign military tyranny without being eager
to break the chain which binds them ; and to raise ex-
pectations and hopes in those persons, and afterwards
to disappoint those hopes, will in all probability end in a
larnet tebie state of things. I need hardly add, that of all
military tyrannies, that of Austria is the most galling
and the most odious to the people of the country. In-
deed it is net in Italy alone that we have had experience
it military occupation by Austrian troops. We have
had experience of it in the Danubian Principalities.
Austrian troops took possession of that country profes-
sedly as friends, in virtue of a treaty with the sovereign
.f the country. One would have supposed that, under
such circumstances, they would have maintained the
most strict discipline—that they would have abstained
from all violence, from all injury to the inhabitants ; and
if by accident injury or violence should be committed,
that it would meet with speedy redress. Unfortunately,
however, during their occupation they took a different
course, and I think I ana justified, from the informa-
ion I have received, in saying that the Russians were
nore humane and merciful than the Austrians. I say
this, looking at the conduct of the Austrians in the most
(avourable light; but I have seen so much of the evi-
lence, foun,lel on official documents, that I am satisfied
lie representation I am making is perfectly correct. By
:he treaty of Vienna the limits of the Austrian power in
Italy were strictly defined. They have passed those
sounds—they have spread themselves over the Legations,
tied have taken possession by a military force of the
Duchy of Parma. I do not mean to enter into the gues-
.ion bow far the original entry into the Legations was
illegal, or how farit was justified by disturbances in that
country, or by the invitation of the government. Those
-Mega I pass over. They are well worthy of considers-
ion, but they would take me from my present object.
Vbat I wish to point your attention to ie this, that from
he time they passed the frontiers seven years have elapsed.
For seven years they have kept possession of those terri-
-unless and not only ruled them, but they have placed
.hem in a state of siege, under martial law, during
the whole of that period. When is this to cease ? What
termination is to be put to this state of thinge ? I ask
'his of my noble friend opposite. The short answer that
f have heard returned from the Austrian Government is
his :—" When we can leave the country without danger
f insurrection we will do so." Now, mark the course of
:bings. A bad government produces dissatisfaction, dine
eirbance, possibly insurrection. That ends in the inva-
-ion of a military force. The possession by the military
'orce continues and increases dissatisfaction, so that prac-
tically it is rendered inspessib'e ever to remove the troops,
and, according to that argument, the occupation of these
-districts by a military force can have no termination.
Tow, there being no remedy, what aro we to say to the
condition of that unfortunate country ? I will refer to
Leigegseusgtigoenstwiohnichofaismyz noble fripernodceoopepdosifrteo—mtoa thee
Ithin think,
!riding government—as to the mode by which this pervil
night be terminated.. The plan is this : establish a satis-
factory government—satisfactory to the people; establish
-Os° a national corps, for the purpose of keeping the
peace, and then you may recal your army, but till that
is accomplished it is impossible to do so. Now all this
is very plausible and specious, but this cannot be done
without the consent of Austria. Will she consent to it ?
Will Austria consent voluntarily ! and, if she will not
consent by her own voluntary act, will she consent by
the pressure of the Western Powers ? Those must be
credulous indeed who suppose that Austria will volun-
"eerily give up possession of this district. It is said some-
times that the inconvenience of her position is such that
-he will by her own act withdraw ; but the inconvenience
must be of a nature much more striking than anything
I can conceive of to lead her to withdraw her troops. I
think, therefore, as far as relates to a voluntary aet
it is altogether hopeless, but she may possibly yield
to the, pressure of France and, England. I looked
forward to that state of things with the anticipation
sf agreeable results. I hoped the pressure would
~be
such as to accomplish the object I had in view. I
lo not mean by that the force of arms, but I mean
by the moral effect which would be produced by
that pressure ; but I may bepermitted to say that, though
I was somewhat sanguine as to the intentions of France
and. England, circumstances have occurred, symptoms
cave appeared of such a nature and character as to lead
ne to entertain very serious doubts whether anything
sill be done; not that there is any doubt with regard to
England, but there are circumstances in the situation of
France which lead me to doubt whether she has at this
time the disposition cordially to co-operate ; so that al-
bough I do not absolutely despair of the state of Italy,
yet 1 confess I feel very great anxiety and great distrust.
Ay noble friend, in the document to which I have re-
t'erred, speaks of the grievous notoriety of the tyrannical
iroceedings of the government of Naples. Nothing can
exceed the infamy of those proceedings. I cannot at-
.empt to describe the policy and the conduct of that go-
eernmect, because no terms that I can make use of can
-iy possibility impress your minds with the reality of the
wile which the subjeots of that
Government suffer
ender. A minute detail of circumstances of the most ex-
'eaordinary kind alone could impress your minds with a
listinct and accurate notion of the state of that country.
I must leave this to the general impression Of what you
lave read and heard. I refer your lordships to a publi-
:ation which I referred to on a former occasion by a right
ion, friend of mine, the member for the University of
Oxford. That publication was circulated extensively
hroughout the continent of Europe. It went through
various editions. It created a most 'extraordinary im-
aression ; it led to great inquiry. An official answer
vas returned to it, issued by the Government of Naples.
I do not know how many of your lordships have read
chat answer, but so far from refuting the facts to which
L have referred, the answer confirms them. That uubli-
ga,tion —I strike out everything but what fell under the
ibservation of the author himself—speaks of conduct
m the part of the Government to merk the infamy
of which is beyond any expression I can make use.
if. But it may possibly be said these occurrences
.00k place four or five years ago. Great altera-
ions may have taken place since then, _ great
)hanges, great improvements. So far from there being
may change, the same system has continued from that
period down to the present. More secrecy is observed,
and there is more dissatisfaction ; but there is the same
infamous system of tyranny and oppression. It may be
uggested that a great change has taken place with
regard to the trials that are now going on. But the
iolitical trials that are now going on are the counter-
part of those which are described by the right hon.
gentleman to whom I have referred as being carried on
in disregard of every principle of justice and every feel-
,ng of right. Persons are suborned to be witnesses
against their will, subjected to punishment unless they
live false evidence. I cannot go through the details.
Your lordships must have read them, and have seen
hat a greater violation. of right and principle perhaps
lever existed in the history of the world. But what
nakes tlle case still worse, if it can be worse, is, that it
is founded on no law, not even the law of an arbi-
-rary Government. The constitution of Naples
was sworn to by the King. It has never '
seen revoked ; it is at this moment the law of the
lountry ; its obligations are enforced. Everything
hat has been done is in open defiance of the law. The
infamy of that government is of a most grievous charac-
er. I appeal to my noble friend to confirm what I state
is to the coarse which has been pursued, and with re-
tard to which I am desirous of hearing some explana-
tion. My noble friend told us on a former occasion,
with regard to that government to which I refer, that
,t was a general rule that one state ought not to inter-
ere in the internal transactions of another, but that
there are eases in which it is not only right to do away
with that rule, but which make it the bounden duty of
'oreign governments so to interfere ; and if ever there
vas such a case, that case is the case of Naples. What
nes been the 0 ,urse which my noble friend has pursued
ft its now three months and more since the triaty o,
peace has been signed, seem after which a note was ad
dressed to the King of Naples. When I asked my no
ble friend if any answer. had been received to that

recently been engaged. It has been supposed or assumed
that Italy is not fitted for constitutional government.
The state of Sardinia is a striking instance of the errone
ousness of that doctrine. That state alone struggling
against the greatest difficulties has succeeded in esta•
Wishing c institutional government, and in preserving it
by the exercise of great firmness, moderation, and pa-
tience ; and I am sure that your lordships must all feel
anxious that nothing should happen to impair the advan-
tages which she derives from that constitution. No one
can, however, look on the state of things in Sardinia
without the greatest anxiety. The Government of that
country is regarded with jealousy and aversion, almost
with hatred, by Austria; who considers that Sardinia
holds out a dingerous example to the neighbouring die.
Anything
ew
adoptedl which h
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the priesthood. These parties,are all combined in a for-
midable opposition to the Government. Notwithstand-
ing tuffs, the great body of the poople of the country are
happy as they are, and give their support to the Govern-
ment. But the danger of Sardinia is not confined to the
intrigues of Austria in Piedmont, but there are other
dangers with which she has to contend. The least ac-
cident might cause circumstances to arise which might
bring destruction upon Piedmont. There are great
armies on the frontier, which are being daily augmented;
and this has caused Piedmont to keep up armies larger
and more expensive than she can well afford to support,
aid she is obliged to press hard on her finances to main-
tain armies to defend themselves against the multitudi-
nous armies which surround her. I would impress
upon the Government the necessity of giving the
strongest moral support to the Government of Pied•
moat—(hear)—if the necessity for any such emergency
should arise, of giving to that Government material
support. (" Bear, hear," and cheers.) We never can
desert that country without a violation of duty. Allow
me to. point out that there is the most bitter feeling
in Austria against Piedmont. Such is the littleness
of the feeling that if it was a contest between women,
I should say that it was spite. (" Hear, hear," and
laughter.) If your lordships will listen to me, I will
give you a very plain history of the state of things in
the Milanese. By the law of that country every subject
can, with the consent of the Government, cast off his
allegiance, can quit the country, and become in every
respect a foreigner, and, like every other foreigner, is
allowed to hold property in the country. After certain
disturbances in Milan, many persons, entirely uncon-
nected with the disturbances, yet finding their residence
there uncomfortable, availed themselves of the general
licence to quit the country ; but, being warned, every
one of them obtained a special permission. Most of
them went to Piedmont, became subjects of the Sar-
dinian Government, were naturalised, and obtained
all the rights of citizenship in that country, and many
of them became members of the assembly. In Coo-
sequence of some suspicion which attached to them,

the 'property of those persons in ,:Milan was seques-
trated. No explanation was given as to the cause, but
the 1 sequestration has continued, and that in spite
of the continual and formal remonstrances of the
Government of Piedmont. Having thus run through
and stated these different facts, let me now ask what
hope have the friends of Italy for her ? I think it right
to say that I am of opinion that there ought to be no
secret designs, no attempts at insurrection, that we must
abandon for the present any notion of a united Italy ;
and there must be no revolutionary movements. I be-
lieve that at present a united Italy is an impracticable
scheme. A revolutionary movement would be crushed by
the disciplined bands of Austria. Such is the advice which
ought to be given by the rear friends of Italy. I am told
that many well informed men in Italy entertain the most
moderate views ; they do not wish for any change in the
forms of governments, but they wish to obtain, and they
are entitled to obtain, an imparti ti administration of krt.
tine, and a firm and honest administration of civil affairs.
(Hear.) Give them that, and I believe thatthe great ma-
jority of the Italians will be content. It should be recol-
lected that when the French, in IE6, entered the Le-
gations they established the French code of laws, and a
fair and equitable administration of civil affairs ; and
the people were content, prosperous, and happy. We
know that in Tuscany, when Leopold reigned under
such a system, the people were contented and happy.
Now, too, Sardinia is prosperous and happy. We know,
therefore, what will satisfy the Italians. I advise them,
therefore, not to attempt to disturb the form of govern-
ment in their different states, but by all moral means to
seek to obtain an impartial administration of justice,
and a good and regular administration of civil affairs.
There is only one way, however, in which this can be
obtained, and by that means it can be obtained with
facility. It must be done by the cordial co-operation
of France and England. (Hear, hear.) Whether that
co-operation will be obtained I will not undertake to
,ay. If such a co-operation does occur, it will produce
the happiness and the prosperity of the Italian people ;
but that is their only hope. I trust that we shall have
some expianation on this point from my noble friend,
and some cause to think that such a hope may be
cherished. The Austrian rule in Italy is carried on only
by means of her troops ; her only rule is that of force
and coercion ; her principle is that of military and not
of civil government ; there is not one ray of liberality in
her ss hole system. For such a system to exist in a fo-
reign country supported by foreign bayonets is intoler-
able. That it is intolerable to the Italians there is abun-
dant and overwhelming evidence. I have thought it my
duty to bring this interesting and important subject be-
fore your lordships, and the interest I feel in it must be
my excus'e for having brought it forward. (Cheers.)
The Earl , f CLARENDON—burind the course of
the last two or three years it has been often my disa-
greeable duty to meet statements on foreign questions

which have been brotight fin Ward by my noble and
learned friend. llis statements are alw :ye so powerful
and so lucid, ih It though my noble and learned friend
says he ie epeeking in an irresponsible position, I can•
not help thieking that he ie in some degree responsible ;
and though your lordships are always most indulgent
to those who sit on the ministerial benches with regard
to the production of papers, yet I never rise to fol-
low my nob'e and learned friend. without a keen sense of
the delicacy of my position. I feel this particularly now,
for so much has fallen from my noble friend which is im-
portant, so great an interest is felt in this country in all
that concerns Italy, so great is the desire to see her
emerge from the position to which she has been reduced
by ba I government, and that she should occupy the
place among nations to which she would have a right as
the consequence of judicious reforms; that I feel unusual
regret that I am not able to afford all the information of
which I am possessed, or to lay on the table any corres-
pondence which would show what are the opinions of
her Majesty's Government, and the steps they have
taken to secure a better state of things in that country.
The correspondence is still incomplete, it is still going
on, and it may, perhaps, be some little time before any
expectation can be entertained of any result? and there-
fore I can see nothing but injury to the negotiations
now going on by the production of the correspondence.
Their production must, among other things,- put an
end to our friendly communications with the
Powers which are joined with us. For we cannot im-
prove the condition of Italy by force, and we must en-
deavour to come to au understanding with the Govern-
ments from whom the improvement of the condition of
Italy must proceed. Many of the facts alluded to by my
noble and learned friend exhibit a state of things of long
standing, flagrant abuses of authority, which are the ne-
cessary consequence of a corrupted and degraded society,
which can only be remedied by the governing powers,
and not solely by external pressure. I have endeavoured
to collect all the iuformCion with regard to the state of
Italy, and, separating it from all exaggeration and local
colouring, I am compelled to admit the difficulty of
bringing about a better state of things not only with re-
ference to the character of the Italians, but also with
reference to the circumstances in 'which they are tinfor-
tunaeely placed. I was glad to hear the admission of
nay noble and learned friend, that revolution, however
it might be momentarily successful, would not lay the
foundation of the future -happiness and prosperity of
Italy. I hope the people of Italy will be too sagacious to
resort to means which will infallibly lead to ultimate
failure. Nothing has been done by her Majesty's Go-
vernment to countenance revolution, because it would
be both unjust and cruel to excite expectations which
cannot be realised or which we ourselves are not pre-
pared to realise. For if we lead the people of Italy to ex-
pect aid from us, we should be bound to fulfil that expec-
tation. Though I admit with my noble and learned friend
that there are circumstances in which interference in the
affairs of foreign states is not only justifiable but an ob-
ligation which I hold to be as strong as any one can, yet
I hold it to be the general rule that interference in the
internal affairs of other slates ought to be resorted to only
on the clearest grounds, and as the last resource. In this
spirit, and without any desire of promoting revolution,
or exciting false hopes, and with the view of laying the
foundations of reforms in the governments of Italy, and
causing the evacuation of that country by foreign troops
the matter was brought before the congress of Paris,
and it was thought that the initiative having been taken
by the plenipotentiary of France was a proof that the
Government of France desired to withdraw the French
troops from R else. I cannot but think with satisfaction
that this question was brought before the congress of Paris
and this notwithstanding that it had been bitterly con-
demned in some quarters ; an:l I was sorry to hear my
noble aid learued friend express his regret that the mat-
ter had been brought before the congress unless measures
of greater vigour had been adopted by the governments
which were represented there. I aria told that we had no
right to bring this matter before the congress at all; that
it was an attack on the independence of the states that
were not represented; that it was calculated to defeat the
object in view, awl that the representativesof the govern-
ments who brought it for ward are responsible for all the
agitation which has since arisen. Butl say that we were
fairly entitled to brine this question forward, when all
the great Powers of Europe were engaged in the consi-
deration of the connection between all the different coun-
tries of Europe. When we were considering the question
whether Turkey, Greece, and the Principalitiesshould not
be relieved from the presence of foreign troops, it was
impossible not to cast an eye on Italy, which had for
years been occupied by foreign troops without any suffi-
cient pretext or justification. I will not enter any more
than my noble and learned friend has done into the
causes which led to that occupation ; but we felt that
the occupation of a country by foreign troops could only
bejustitied by urgent necessity, and that sufficient cause
ought to be shown for it. But we also felt that such a
state of things could never arise except it may be more
convenient for a sovereign to rely on foreign bayonets
fur support than to take trouble to render them inde-
pendent of that control by a beneficent rule, and the en-
couragement of reforms. That was the object with which
I brought this matter before the congress, and we have
hal every reason to be satisfied with that course. I
must here take the opportunity of adverting to the con-
duct of my noble friend Count Cavour in the con-
gress. Tne conduct of Count Cavour, the represen-
tative of a state the most deeply interested in the
result of the diseueeien, - was moderate and digni-
fied, and calculated well to sustain the reputa-
tion he hal gained in the service of his country ; for it is
Co him, more than to any other person, that Sardinia is
indebted for the establishment of her constitutional
liberty ; and he has done good service to Italy by prov-
ing that Italians are not unfitted fur liberal institutions,
and that those institutions may be employed by them
without any risk of their degenerating into excess. I feel
the most entire reliance on the spirit by which Count
Cavonr is actuated ; and I believe that the Austrian
Government itself is not more opposed to insurrection
in Italy than he is, or would do more to prevent it. It
is true, as my noble friend has said, that three months
have elapsed since that discussion in the congress took
place, and that as yet there are no visible results from
it. But my noble friend must not infer that nothing has
been done, or that as much has not been done as could
have been done in that time. I could have wished to
be able to say that the result of the communication
which has been made to the King of Naples has been
satisfactory. But I cannot say that it has. It is impos-
sible that two governments can be more at variance as
to facts than her Majesty's Government and that of the
stated to him that in
t oo u the stability views
th e existing
thronestate a
so f
things was dangerous
well as to the interests of his country. We specially
pointed out what my noble and learned friend has sug- I
gested was one great difficulty, viz„ the establishment
of a better administration of justice—we recommended
a general amnesty for political offences, and such a sys-
tem of government as should rally round it the coefi-
dance of the people—that systematic distrust and expule
sion without trial or proof of guilt and unjust
persecution should cease—and, above all, that all per-
sons, irrespective of t .eir political opinions, should have
a sufficient guarantee and security for their personal
liberty. (Hear.) Now, I think a bolder representation
of our dissatisfaction at the existing state of things
could scarcely have been addressed by any Go-
vernment to another. (Hear, hear.) It is true
that we last week received an answer to that repre-
uentation ; but not yet having any knowledge of the
answer which has been made ;known to the French Go-
vernment, not having yet been able to confer with the
Government of the Emperor of the French—and I hope
1 shall not bring the Government of France under the
censure of my noble and learned friend by saying that
the Government is at this time absent from Paris, and
therefore no answers can be given at the moment—
(hear and a laugh)—until we had a communication with
the French Government, and determined, in conjunc-
tion with them, what is the course which under the
circumstances it may be necessary to pursue, I think it
would be better not to lay upon the table the note we
have received from Naples, and to which my noble and
learned friend has alluded. And with regard to the
nature of the answer, I think I shall best perform my
duty or, this occasion by simply confining myself to the
general statement that it is impossible -for any answer
be • less satisfactory or less indicative of
futUre improvement than that which has been
given to our representation. (Hear, bear.)
Bit, my lorels, the question of reform in the Pontifical
states, and the withdrawal of the foreign armies from
those states, has been forced upon the consideration of
the powers principally interested in the matter, and has,
I must say, been discussed in a manner and in a spirit
that promises the most satisfactory results. And though
my noble and learned friend may think me prejudiced in
saying so, I firmly believe that the Austrian Government
does honestly desire to withdraw the troops from the
Papal territories; and I believe also that the French Go-
vernment are equally deeirou.i to withdraw their troops
from those states ; and I further believe that that desire,
I so far from meeting with any opposition, is shared in and
approved by the Papal Government itself. If, then, it
be true, as I have every reason to think it is, that that
desire is sincere on the part of the three powers princi-
pally concerned, I cannot imagine that any very long
time will elapse before it is carried into effect, and those
precautimes are taken which I am sure my noble and
learned friend will admit to be necessary after so pro-
tracted a foreign occupation, in order to prevent a recur-
rence of those disasters which first occa-ioned that occu-
pation, and which all must deplore. (Hear.) But, my
lords, those precautions being taken, 1 see no reason
why the Papal states should not be evacuated with as
little delay as possible, and with as little mischief as took
place in the caee of Tuscany. (Hear, hear.) The events
of 1848 bad left fatal reminiscences in Tuscany, and May
have created some apprehension on the part of the go-
vernment of that country ; but I mast say that it is much
to the credit of the Grand Duke that he determined to
rely for support upon his own people only. Accordingly
he requested the withdrawal of the Austrian troops, and,
as your lordships must be aware, the last Austrian
soldier has left the Tuscan territory without the slighteet
difficulty occurring. (Hear, hear.) I see no reason why
this should not serve as au example to be followed
by all the Italian states. (Hear.) But the fact is
that the experiment of confiding in the Italian people
has never been tried. Those excellent measures of
reform which the present Pope inaugurated, and which
were received with gratitude by the people, were all
swept away by the torrent of revolution which broke out
in 1848; consequently those measures have not bad a
fair trial. I hold in my hand—but I will not detain
your lordships by reading it—the Pope's proclamation
that preceded his return to Rome in 1849, in which the
foundation of a better administration of the judicial sys-
tem is directly and completely laid down. I believe