The Sun.
London, England, 1860-06-01 00:00:00

1i.....
. -
meat should appear clearly in the estimates. I believe if " and ability, who was well acquainted with colonial affairs,
this matter were looked into, we should find that a very and who was one of the founders of one of the most success-
considerable percentage of saving could be effected. I know fed colonies—he meant that of Canterbury. The third gen-
the right hon, gentleman has a large body of clerks who, tleman was Mr. Elliot, who represented the War-office,
having been brought up on the old system, would be disin-
and whose appointment was amply justified 1 y the part
dined to adopt a new one. I will not dwell further upon he had taken on this committee. The n port stated,
that point, but I must add that I think there is some extra-
in the first place, that the colonies contributed towards
vagance in the cost of our staff. Ido not wish to select in-
their own defence about one-tenth of the cog, and it went
dividuals, but in order to do any good one must refer to par-
on to say that such a state of things wts unparalleled in
titular cases. Until lately there was no such thing as a gene-
history, and that it was an entire innovation upon the
ral officer on the staff in the Guards, that duty being generally earlier treatment of her colonies by England. He (Mr.
Adderley) wished to state, because he believed there were
undertaken by some officer at the Horse Guards. Theinagain,
many people in this country who were ignorant of the fact,
there are some corps which have more officers than theyre-
quire. They are also certain items in the payment of Staff that when the American colonies were first established they
officers which I think it would be for the comfort of those not only maintained their own defence, but they met the
officers themselves should be inquired into. There are also regular armies of France and Spain on the American con-
other appointme,te of considerable emolument which it tinent and defeated them. There were several instances of
would be well to inquire requisitions being made upon them, of their attacking
into. A great number of general
officers receive front £.5,000 to £lO,OOO or £ll,OOO a year. places in the possession of the French and the Spanish, and
Now, I think £5,000 or £6,000 a year is a sufficient sum for adding them to the dominions of the British Crown. The
a bishop, and therefore enough for a general officer. I Mutiny Act was not extended to America till 1758, and it
know it may be considered invidious to make these re- was then the troops of England began to be sent to that
marks, but unless some one does it we shall do no good, country. But to revert to the report. It went on to state
An hon. and gallant gentleman has stated that we have that anomalous as this system was, it was aggravated by
150,000 effective men upon the establishment, exclusive of the inequalities of it : that some colonies, which seemed to
India. I wish we had 150,000 men at home, but_that require help the most, were helped the least. Again, in
figure includes the troops in the colonies, which amount to some of the rich colonies her Majesty's troops had allow-
-30,000 or 40,000 men. We must of course keep garrisons
antes made to them at the expense of the colony, and a
in certain fortresses, but the question of keeping troops in consequence of this was that her Majesty's Government
the colonies has been treated of in an able report recently were obliged to raise the pay of the troops in those colonies
laid before Parliament, drawn up by three civilians, Mr, where the allowances were not made. Lord Grey, when he
Hamilton, Mr. Elliott, and Mr. Godley. Among the con- was at the head of the Colonial-office, suggested that all
tents of that report is a maxim which it laid down, that the that England should do should be to maintain that amount
real defence of the colonies is in the people themselves, of force in each colony which might be considered feces-
and not in paltry detachments disseminated through the sary for imperial purposes. The report dealt with this pro-
colonies. (Hear, hear.) That is no new thought, however, position, and gave three or four reasons amply sufficient for
for I recollect when I was much younger I lamented the not agreeing with it. In the first place the committee
erroneous system which prevailed of having garrisons in asked who was to say what force was sufficient for imperial
almost all the places in our possession. That was at a time PurPoses. The committee divided the colonies and depen-
when the French had no large fleet ; but whether she has a dencies into two classes ; first, those which were formed
for imperial purposes—whether for military purposes, such
fleet or not, I hope the Government will always bear in mind
that the real defence of the country is best cared for by hav-
as Malta and Gibraltar, or benevolent purposes, such as
ing a great mass of troops eoncentrated near the heart of those which were formed for the suppression of the slave
the empire and taking the chance of some little island being trade. The second class were those which were territories
attacked; or best plan is not to garrison all posts, but to and had governments of their own ; and the report laid
mass our troops upon a central point. Even at the corn-
down the principle that there was no reason why this
mencement of the tremendous mutiny in India, we had
country should contribute to the defence of this class of
nearly 12,000 men, nearly 10,000 of the line, at the Cape of colonies, except that they were not represented in that
Good Hope. The Governor of the colony had such great house, Mr. Elliot adopted the report in the main, but he
a
regard for good troops, that although he received several added to it representations of his own. He would now
ceed to notice Mr. Elliot's objections. Mr. Elliot would
pro-
orders to detach troops he did not do so. He was first in-
n
strutted to send troops to the Crimea, but he declined toot accept the proposition that there was any reason why
E
comply, and subsequently he received more than one order, England should undertake the defence of the colonies, ox-
as has been proved before a committee of the House of Co
cept that they were not represented in the House of Cone•
ra-
mons ; but he said that the colonies had other claims upon
mons, from the Colonial Department, to send troops to India,
but he held back. The fact was we were spending nearly a the mother country, that in fact they took more of her pro-
million a-year for the advantage of the small population of duce than independent states. The same argument was
the Cape of Good Hope. (Hear, hear.) That is one instance made use of last year by Sir George Grey in a speech in
of the effects of the old system. Except in the fortresses which he contended that though the people of this country
which must be held by garrisons, Ido not see that there paid the cost of the colonial defences in the first instance,
need be any considerable number of troops in any other they were reimbursed by the prices which they obtained for
posts. A very important communication was made to the their goods from the colonists. In other words, he argued
different colonies by the right hon. gentleman the Colonial that there was not an English blanket or pickaxe sold to the
Minister in Lord Derby's Administration, pointing out to colonists on which they did not pay something towards the
them that they were nearly all increasing in population and support of the English army and navy. But if that was the
wealth, and ought to develope their own means of local de- case, there was no foreign country which consumed Eng-
lish produce which did not contribute to the support of the
fence without expecting any assistance from the mother
country except in case of war. That point has also been English military establishments. Again, it was urged that
ably dealt with in the report to which I have before referred, because Australia consumed more per head of English pro-
and I hope the present Government will follow up those sug-
duce than the United States, dependent countries were
gestions and say to the colonies that they must place them • better customers than independent ones. But to that logic
selves in a position of self defence. Some have, indeed, done Mr. Godley had given a very pertinent reply. He simply
so. Australia has commenced, and Canada has made consider-
took another illustration, and said that, inasmuch as Canada
•
able progress. The two provinces, I believe, have a militia took lss per head of our goods than the United States, a
amounting to about 200,000 men, a force far greater than
dependent stateimported less of English produce than an in-
our own militia. The gallant general opposite has referred
dependent one. He also pointed out the fact that the consump-
to a most important point, the reserves of the army. When tion of British articles by the United States was much less
Parliament was prorogued at the end of last session there ,before than after they had obtained their independence.
was one paragraph in the Royal speech which attracted Illy The whole argument was based upon a fallacy which they
attention and gave me much pleasure. Her Majesty con- used often to hear put forward when economic laws were
gratulated Parliament that measures had been taken to form not so well understood—the truth being that foreign and
reserves both for the army and navy, and that the national colonial countries purchased our produce, not on account of
defences were a paramount object in the policy of the Go- their political connexion with us, but simply because it was
vernnient. I think still that ought to be a paramount con- commercially speaking to their interest to do so. (Hear,
sideration, but lam sorry to say the reserve for the navy hear.) Mr. Elliot next proceeded to lay down the principle
has proved most insignificant in numbers and the reserve that the aid to be furnished by the mother country to her
of the army hardly exists at all, or at most only to the ex- colonies in the matter of military defences ought not to be
tent of a few hundred men. We have, no doubt, a consi- regulated by a fixed ra'o. The report, on the other hand,
derable force in the shape of volunteer corps, which we ow© contended that the amount of assistance should be settled
entirely to the public spirit and patriotism of the country. by a rule, from which there should be no deviation,
The Government are entitled to very little credit in respect except by way of exception, of which exceptions par-
of that force, for the truth is that for a time they seemed to liament would be able to take cognisance. Mr. Elliot
doubt whether they should encourage or discourage the
wished to leave the matter, as at present, to the discre-
Hen of the Colonial-office ; but it was the evils arising from
movement. (Hear, hear.) lam sorry to see that an hon.
baronet (Sir R. Peel) has thought it necessary to give no-
the present system which hid caused the gallant general
tice of a motion that the vote on the estimates for the volun_ : (General Peel) to appoint the committee. There could be
teer force should be reduced. I can only 'say that I believe very little doubt which principle was the wiser. Mr.
Elliot divided the colonies into four different classes, in-
the movement has been, on the whole, very satisfactory, and
was happy to see the amount of the force lately stated autho-
stead of the two specified in the report; but those four,
ritatively to amount to 120,000 or 130,000. lam sure that the after all, resolved themselves pretty much into two—viz.,
right hon. gentleman the Secretary for War will give to that those in which the European element was stronger and
important force all the encouragement it so well deserves. those in which it was weaker. He mentioned the
'West
(Hear, hear.) I rather regret, however, that steps have not Indies as an instance which had a peculiar claim for a
been taken to enlarge the basis of the force. (Hear, hear.) large contribution to their defences ; but having been an
lam afraid that in some quarters there is a little jealousy officer of the department, he must have known that the
felt as to allowing the people at large to join in this move- troops upon which the European inhabitants relied for pro-
ment. I win only remind such persons that one of the tection against a rising of the coloured population were
greatest Powers of Europe—Pau-id—fell and disappeared themselves men of colour. (Hear.) No doubt, if there was
from the rank , f nations through the jealousy of the aristo- to be an exception from tho fixed rule, the -West Indies
cracy towards the great mass of the people. (Hear.) I very would present the strongest case for such an exception in
much regret that nothing has been done to establish a their favour. But why ? It was because this country had
volunteer force in Ireland. (Hear, hear.) I know very well j interfered most with its natural policy, with its supply of
that an idea exists that the people of Ireland are clisaf- labour, and with the price of its produce. Mr. Elliot men •
fected, and that those who profess the Roman Catholic re • tioned Ceylon as a country which contributed 50 per cent.
ligion are not so loyal to the British Crown as they ought of the cost of its defences, and said that no more bur-
to be. It appears to me, however, that the sympathy dens should be thrown upon it, because a great ex-
which many of the Irish people have evinced for the Papal penditure was going on in railways and other works of pub-
cause ought not to excite the least apprehension. There lie utility. But what a reason. We were making railways,
is no reason to suppose, because sympathy has been mani- and carrying out great works of public utility in this coun-
fested towards the Pope, that they are therefore disloyal to try ; but for all that every poor man was called upon to ,on-
the British Government. (Hear.) It is a complete mis- tribute his share towards the defence of the empire. (Hear,
take to think so, and one that ought to be rectified. We hear.) The present state of things could not bo allowed to
are told that the law does not admit at present of the em- remain; and what he wished to ask the Government was,
bodimeut of volunteers in Ireland. If such be the law, I how they were going to deal with the important report which
say, m I have said before, that it ought to be altered with- had been made by this committee ? That report proposed a
out delay. (Hear.) In the letters of the Duke of Welling- material change in our present system, a change which in
ton, just published, and to which I have already alluded, I his (the right hon. gentleman's) opinion would be of very
find that in 1808, when there was infinitely greater cause great benefit to the country, would add greatly to the effi-
than now of disaffection towards the British Throne, the ciency of the army, would be attended by a considerable re-
Duke writes with much satisfaction to say that he has or- duction in the amount of our taxation, and would impart
ganised a volunteer force of between 40,t00 and 50,000 safety and vigour to the colonies themselves. He did not
men ; and the population was considerably less at that time ask the Government to act upon that report hastily, or with-
than it is now. We have had Irish militia regiments in this out duo consideration ; but he wished to know whether they
country, and I should like to know if any one ever thought were prepared to adopt its principles and to carry them into
of distrusting those troops ? (Hear.) There are, too, the effect as opportunity presented ?
Lord R. CECIL differed entirely from the views of the
Irish constabulary, almost all of whom are Roman Catho-
lics; but I never heard that disloyalty was imputed to that right hon. gentleman who had just sat down. He thought
fine body of men. These, in my opinion, are all arguments it a matter of regret that the report had got into the hands
to prove that we ought to have a strong volunteer force in of hon. members ; for he did not consider that the practice
Ireland as well as in this country. With regard to the which was gaining ground, of substituting for the speech of
feelings of the people of Ireland on this subject, I would a minister in that house a printed opinion of his permanent
refer with much pleasure to an excellent speech lately de- subordinates, was likely to be productive of benefit. How-
livered by the Catholie Bishop of Kerry, in which he an- ever, the report had been published, and the only result was
swered some statements said to be made rather too favour- that it disclosed a serious difference of opinion which there
able to the French Government. lle said such statements seemed to be no way of settling, except by referring the mat-
arose from a want of consideration ; that he did not be- ter to acommittee of the house. Two of the committee (Mr.
lieve his fellow-countrymen or the priesthood would be so Hamilton and Mr. Godley) appeared to him to have rather
wanting in common sense as to desire to have a species of exceeded the limits of the reference which the gallant gene-
despotism in Ireland such as existed in France ; and he re- ral (General Peel) had made to them ; for instead of exa-
minded them that they would not have
been allowed in mining into the circumstances of each colony, one by one,
France to make such speeches as had been made in reference
they had gone into a statesmanly discussion of a number of
to this subject. (Hear, hear.) The late Secretary for War metaphysical topics, such as the best mode of exciting a feel-
(General Peel) had spoken of the exact force now
in this ing of patriotism, and other matters, which were
wholly
country, aid has declared it as his opinion that that force beyond the purview of their instructions.
lie had the
is quite inadequate. In that opinion I entirely concur, greatest respect for Mr. Godley, but he did not think that
(Hear, hear.) The nominal force in this country at the much stress could be laid on the fact that he had been a
present moment is quite inadequate, and lam not satisfied colonist and was now at the War-office, because having
with its composition. Let us economise as far as we can, been himself in the colony whilst Mr. Godley was there, he
No one will be readier to do so than myself; but the pos-
session of a numerical force that will enable us to fight in (the noble lord) was entitled to state that Mr. Godley held
then the same views that he had expressed in the report ;
the field is the great object that we ought to aim at. (Hear.) and the fact of his subsequent connection with the Depart-
We are told that we have 150,000 men, but we have no
Butch meat of War had therefore had nothing whatever to do withch number in the United Kingdom. (Hear, hear, from them, He (the noble lord) must also dispute the claim of
Mr. Williams.) The hon. member for Lambeth no doubt the Canterbury colony, the most successful that this coun-
knows all about it. We may have 150,000 men in pay, but try had ever founded. The fact was it had entirely failed
hi
s includes men for the colonies, and some of them are in every particular in which it differed from other colonies.
ghlyogarrisoned. (Hear.) Ido not believe we have more (Mr. Adderley—No, no.) The colonists had not received
than
for their £3 per acre the advantages which they were pro-
-3 ,000 troops of the line at home ; of these 20,000 are
in depots, and these depots are in a most unsatisfactory raised ; and though it was perfectly true that 4,000 Eng-
- lishmen, who had settled in the fertile landof the
state, because they are made up of recruits assembled to-
had reapedi for themselves • district,
gether without amalgamation. (Hear.) A speech was
admit Mr, Godley's title to be considered the most sued great prosperity he, could not
ful colonist that had ever left these shores. The rightcheoss-
lately made by a noble and gallant lord in another place on
gentleman said that a sum of £4,000,000 was going to bne.
this subject, and he recommended that second battalions
should be substituted for depots. This is a matter worthy
amount was
aweheonoluygnht,oonoo=
,aapilinhat toli beof wthealltiwnfeouirmdebde,
of serious consideration, and I hope it will receive the atten-
ewtasmterd .Elli?ut the fact was that, according to the statement
tion of the Government. (Hear, hear.) I have to apologise
the am.
spent upon military stations, kept up for purely imperial
to the house for the length of the observations I have ven-
tured to make, but my excuse is the vast importance of the
objects. (Hear.) It would also be remembered that in hardly
subject. (Hear, hear.)
a single case would the colonies be endangered but for the
M. ADDFALEY said he had given notice of ki inters- quarrels which we had at home wiih our neighbours. When
tloa to eau the attention of the house to the qmestions of the there was a talk of a French war the utmost panic prevailed
defeeee--
, este of the eol•aies, and he now brought forward that in Australia and at the Cape. Why ? Not because the co-
gutiect, fiat, because ho could have no other. oppor- lonists had any quarrel with the Emperor, but because they
hinitY ; and, secondly, because if it
must be ductiii.do was to be discussed it
n w or. never. If they were now to vote feared lest in the event of war he should send his ships to
15 millions fo r army estimates, it was material to consider molest their ports in order to annoy the mother country.
involved
Again, the whethwr some four out of those 15 millions were more orCanadians were in no danger themselves of being
less thrown away. They had a report of a government tom- in a dispute with the United States—they were
mittee on this subject, am
. her
object in rising now was to only afraid of a dispute between America and England,
ask the Government Wheith they intended to act on the about the isthmus of Panama, or about foreign enlistment.
report, and, if not, what theythitended to do on the sub.. So at Ceylon, what the colonists had to fear was lest our
ject. It was in March, 1859,
gallant general then gtiovveererniinnthoifehlndia should produce a ferment in the na •
at the head of the War- office comet the
ted to the Colonial-
office and the Treasury his .sense ofeutilhetemitamense inconveni- might extend from the mainland to their
own shoresw. At the Cape the Dutch goers would require
y tom, and he urged on
once and mischief of the existine•
tsecrfarcely any aid against the Kaffirs, were itnot
them to lay down some principle on which a n
erence. They would shoot down the Kaifirs like wild 1
ment should be based, and he laid downas the basis i-,
s counay ought
new
animals •
; and it was only because we thought that policy
that di'
an arrangement a double principle,—. of such
inhuman, and prevented them from adopting it—because,
to contribute to the defence of the eel • moreover, we had allowed two growing republics to be es-
eheonies against foreign
aggression, but that the colonies should provide for their
internal defence themselves ; and he suggested that in tablished at the north of the colony—that the settlers re-
was to destroy quired aid from this country. The object of Mr. Godley
order to draw up a sch eme embodying these pies a
would
be
the
ythe dependence of the eolonies—but what
committee should be appointed representing principles
result of such a course ? The first European
war that broke outd they would find that their connexion with
partments, the War-office, the Colonial-office, and ththree de-
e
giance at the earliest opportunity. Bury. Such a committee.was appointed accordingly. It con- us cost them to
the case of Ame •
in the one case a militia an d the
Gedl
eoyff
referredtheir al 1
to
ist e d of Mr. Hamilton, well known in the house for mcaonny-
years, who represented the Treasury; Mr. Godley, who • ma, and the Greek colonies of the olden
time• But -
represented the Colonial office—a man of the highest worth .
b
• y eacouraging Ntri g was no sooner formed
° Lenl eAd a /spirit of self-dopeudenco

less service than he can show. In answer to the question
addressed to me on this point, I may say that the Secretary
of State is responsible for these appointments, but that he
acts on the recommendation of the Commander-in-Chief.
The Duke of Cambridge said to me—" I think General
Grey's services are such that he ought not to be passed over
any longer; I think nothing could be more wrong than to
make him colonel of a regiment on the ground that he has
a place at Court." No one can deny that. " But," he
added," " it would be most unjust to refuse him the place
if he has otherwise a title to it, because he has an office at
Court." I asked his Royal Highness whether, if General
Grey were General Smith, with no place at Court, and un-
connected with any known family, but with some service
to point to, he would be entitled to the place, and the
answer was that he would have got the appointment before
this. Therefore, merely because a man happens to possess
a place at Court, and there may be an outcry in the public
prints about his getting any other place, it would be a
shabby, cowardly thing not to give him a post of this sort
when it falls vacant, and he has otherwise a fair claim to it.
Once lay down the rule that a man who has a place at
Court is not to receive the reward to which he is otherwise
entitled for service in the army, and what will be the re-
sult ? Her Majesty has surrounded her children with
officers of distinction. The Prince of Wales is attended by
General Bruce and Major Teesdale, Prince Alfred by
Colonel Cowell, Prince Arthur by Major Elphinstone.
Well, once make i t the rule that the moment a man accepts
a Court place a black mark shall be set against his name,
that his past service shall not count, that he shall be de-
barred from receiving the legitimate honours of his profes-
sion, and you exclude from the places which it is the inte-
rest of the country to have filled by the best men the very
officers whom you would yourselves select, as the best per-
sons to discharge the duties. Nothing could be more un-
just than to lay down such a rule. The gallant officer who
brought this matter forward said I spoke to him so confi-
dently he supposed I had a good case. I believe I have a
good case, and I repeat it would have been a mean, shabby,
cowardly thing to have refused an officer, on account of
name, position, or connexion, that reward to which, in the
ordinary course of service, he was fairly entitled. It has been
said that Sir H. Inglis has been recommended to the colonelcy
of a regiment out of his turn. I own that such a step may
be taken exception to ; but as the gallant officer had re-
turned from India with broken health, and as this was the
regiment with which he defended Lucknow, both the Duke
of Cambridge and myself were of opinion that it would
be a just and graceful act to offer him, although
out of his turn, the command of the regiment with which
he had been so honourably associated. (Hear, hear.) I
will not now make any further observati •ns, but after this
long discussion I trust the House will allow me to take, at
any rate, the first vote. The difference in the number of
men is very small, only about 2,000. The discussion may
be taken on the next vote for the pay, and we shall then
have taken one step in considering these estimates.
Mr. DISRAELI said he would only interpose for a mo-
ment, as he thought the right hon, gentleman was entitled
to their assistance after the able manner in which he had
replied to the diversified subjects brought under his notice.
(Cheers.) The question which had been raised by the gal-
lant general the member for Westminster was one of greater
importance than the mere merits of an individual or the pro-
priety of a single appointment, and he thought the House
would do well to express, though not in any formal man-
ner, its opinion upon it. He could certainly have no pre-
judice in favour of General Grey, because his earliest re-
collections were associated with having stood three con•
tested elections with General Grey, in all of which he
had been vanquished by that gentleman, and they were
at a time of life when defeat did not leave the same
amiable results which in after life were experienced.
(Laughter.) But he thought the right hon. gentleman the
Secretary of State had given a sufficient answer to the
charge that General Grey was not entitled by his services
to promotion. The right hon. gentleman had very properly
reminded them that the question was whether they were to
lay down the rule that because an officer held an
appointment at Court, he was therefore to be looked upon
as a soldier who was not able to obtain promotion in the
profession to which he belonged. It was not merely in re-
ference to our own Court and our own Princes that those
in immediate attendance on the Royal family were mem-
bers of the military profession. It had been the custom
during the last two centuries in Europe. It was quite un-
necessary to dsscuss the propriety of the custom. Very
good reasons, if necessary, could no doubt be given ; but
this was a practical assembly, which had only to deal with
facts, and it was a fact that the households of Sovereigns
and of Princes near the throne were formed invariably of
members of the military profession. The consequence of
any rule that they should not be entitled to preferment in
their profession must be, that they must have, in the Royal
household, a very inferior class of persons. It was not the
interest of the country that the Sovereign and princes of
the Royal Family should be surrounded by military
parasites. (Hear, hear.) As long as/the present system
prevailed—and he saw no reason why it should cease to pre-
vail—it was of the utmost importance, and of the highest
public interest, that officers who accepted appointments in
the Royal household should be men of the highest class.
(Hear, hear.) The public interest was that individuals
occupying such a position should, by their cultivation and
general feelings, be men who would, by their high qualities,
exercise a beneficial influence on the sentiments of those
with whom they were brought in contact. The gallant
gentleman whose name had been called in question was one
who certainly fulfilled that condition. He was the son of
an illustrious statesman. He was a distinguished man in
his own profession, and he believed it would be acknow-
ledged by all that he had performed the duties of his office
at Court in a manner which entitled him to the confidence
of the public. (Cheers.)
Colonel DICKSON said the appointment of Sir J. Inglis
was really little more than a graceful compliment, as he
would have to resign the pension which had been conferred
upon him for distinguished services.

The house then went into committee about half-past 1
o'clock.

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.

Mr. S. HERBERT asked the house to vote 1,007 addi-
tional men, about 7,000, in lieu of 5,000 having come home
from India. There were some small reductions, scarcely
of sufficient importance to mention. On the third vote, for
the land forces, these was a reduction of £54,000, from the
reduced number of men to be raised. There was a saving
of £5,000 in the purchase of horses, in consequence of Fieli
Artillery not raised. There was a small diminution by the
abolition of a military prison in Canada. There was a re-
duction of £75,957 in wages, which was part of the reduc-
tion made on the vote for stores, in consequence of a less
amount of work performed in the carriage department. The
carriage department was at the head of the gun department,
and therefore it was thought better to make a reduction to
that extent. With respect to the reduction of clothing it
was owing to their not having to give the three kits to the
troops from India which they would have to give if the
men had to be raised.
Colonel HERBERT complained that regiments of the
line at home were kept weak while a large sum was ex-
pended on the embodied militia.
Mr. S. HERBERT, in reply to General Upton, said he
could not hold out any hope that the Government would
increase the rate of pension ; and, in his opinion, it would
be a better course to increase the pay than to increase the
pension—a course which he was persuaded would tend
more to increase the efficiency of the army than that sug-
gested by the hon. and gallant general, and moreover, as
the term of service had been shortened, there was not the
same necessity that would otherwise exist.
The vote, after a few remarks by Sir F. SMITH, in re-
ference to a discrepancy in the figures, was then agreed to.
On the motion that a sum of £3,236,701 be granted to
her Majesty towards completing the pay and allowances of
the land forces,
Colonel LIN OSAY said the army was very much in-
debted to the right hon. gentleman for the improvements
he had introduced. With regard to the old warrant, he
begged to observe that when a man had given eighteen
years' service, he became entitled for that time to increased
pay for good conduct marks ; and also if he served sixteen
years clear of that time without having been on the default
book. The number of years under the new warrant had
been reduced, and might, in his opinion, be still more re-
duced with advantage. With regard to officers who had
served five years on the staff, he thought it a great disad-
vantage that they might then be removed from that branch
of the service. He had given notice on that subject.
Take, for instance, an officer holding the rank of adjutant-
general, after he had served five years upon the staff at
£l6O a year, he was then removed from that rank and re-
duced to an income of £2OO a year. He thought that not
right. They now wanted to encourage their best officers
to serve on the staff, and they also compelled them to go
through a superior mode of educaron to prepare themselves
for the staff appointments ; but after they had got them
they in a short time removed them from that branch of the
service. Now he contended, if they compelled their best
officers to go on half-pay after they had served with ability
on the staff, such a course would prove very discouraging.
They, by such a course, turned those officers adrift.
Sir JOHN TRELAWNY said he was not satisfied
with the explanation of the right hon. gentleman the
Secretary at War in relation to the appointment of General
the Hon. Sir C. Grey to the colonelcy of a regiment. I
was not, in his opinion, sufficient for the right hon. gentle
man to state that General Grey was in every respect quail-

fled for the appointment. His opinion was that the righ

hun. gentleman should have shown the house that no other