The Sun.
London, England, 1860-06-09 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY -EVENING, JUNE 9, 1800,

VIPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS—(YESTERDAY.)
The LORD CH ANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack
st.five o'clock.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
luchamp Almslaouses Estate, Leeds Township, Egles-
ton /loads, Building Improvement Company, Upper Mer-

sey Dues, and North British, Peebles, and Jedburgh
BrAlway bills were read a second time.
The following bills were read a third time and passed :
Bucks County Rate, Coln River Water, and London and
South-'Western Railway (new line to Brist,l and Exeter
Railway at Exeter),

CHURCH RATES.
A number of petitions were presented against the aboli•
tion of church rates.

Lord LYVEDEN presented a great many petitions in
fav our of the abolition.

THE BOMBARDMENT OF PALERMO.

Lord BROUGHAM said that he was about to put a
question to his noble friend opposite, to which he hoped he
would receive an answer in the negative. It was, whether
there was any foundation for the accounts which had been
spread in this country of the bombardment of the town of
Palermo. For the honour of human nature he hoped there

-was no foundation for this unexampled atrocity. - He said
unexampled, for the most execrable tyrant of ancient times
—Nero—even he was only charged with standing by in
levity while Rome was burning, and was never charged
with the still more atrocious offence of setting fire to the
city for the purpose of destroying, amongst 600,000 human
beings, those who were his enemies. He hoped there was
no ground for this, because, though the principle of non-
intervention was sacred and ought to be scrupulously ob-
served, if it was unhappily proved that this account was
true, he must say that that principle of non-intervention
would be tried to the utmost. That principle was sacred
and inviolable, but it did not and could not extinguish in
their bosoms the natural feelings of humanity, could not
prevent them from hearing with indignation and horror of
those crimes that would be committed—if the answer were
not given to him in the negative7-or prevent them from
wishing and praying for the speedy and entire liberation
of the people of Sicily, and, if this account be correct, even
by the downfall of their tyrants.
Earl GRA.NVILLE said he was sorry to say that the
Government had received such intelligence as that which
the noble and learned lord had alluded to. The noble lord
ought to have given notice of hie intontion to pat the qm,a-
tion to the noble earl the Under Secretary of State for
Foreign Affairs. It was impossible to give complete an-
swers unless such rules were complied with.
Lord BROUGHAM said he was perfectly well aware of
that, and he properly abstained from touching upon the
political aspect of the question.
OUR RELATIONS WITH ROME.

Earl STANHOPE, in moving for a copy or extract of the
despatch from the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs
to regulate the diplomatic reletionst with the Court of Rome
since the cessation of her Majesty's legation at Florence,
said that in the state of Central Italy, and the state of agi-
tation and alarm, and perhaps something more than alarm,
which existed there, it was certainly not desirable that their
lordships should be called on for any vote bearing on the
political aspect of that question, nor had he any intention
of proposing such a motion. His object merely was to call
attention to the disadvantage and inconvenience which at-
tended the system of carrying on diplomatic relations with
the Court of Rome since the cessation of her Majesty's mis-
zion. at, Florence. As to the exact time and manner in which
a bet4er system might be *troduced, her Majesty's mini-
sters must be the best, and indeed the only judges. He
had no complaint whatever to bring against the gentleman
who now carried on our diplomatic business with the court
of Rome—Mr. Odo RusAll—of whom he could only speak
in terms of prai e. His appointment was a very good one,
and he justified his appointment by the ability and applica-
tion he had shown. In former times it used to be cond..
dered that penal consequences attached to any diplomatic
intercourse with the court of Rome, and it was thought that
any such diplomatic intercourse might expose the persons
conducting it to the penalties of a prmmunire. At the Con-
gress of Paris her Majesty's ministers had no wish to ex-
pos; themselves to those penalties, but it was found impos-
sible to avoid all intercourse with the court of Rome, for
apart from all questions of a spiritual kind, there must oc-
casionally arise questions connected with their commercial
relations with such towns as Civita Yecchia and Ancona,
which required diplomatic intercourse. Her Majesty's Go-
vernment, therefore, determined to do that indirectly which
they could not do directly, by sending an attache from Flo-
rence to Rome, to carry on whatever diploma tic business
might be required, and with no greater salary. This gave
rise to so much inconvenience that Lite Government resolved
to apply a remedy to it, and accordingly in 1848 the act of
the 11th and 12th Viet., ch. 108, was passed, which was en-
titled " An Act for establishing and maintaining diplomatic
relations with the Sovereign of the Roman States." That
act:consisted of two clauses only, but in its passage through
their lordships' house a clause was introduced on a motion
of a noble earl (the Earl of Eglinton), which declared that
it should not be lawful for her Majesty to receive any mi-
nisterfrom the court of Rome who should be in holy orders,
a Jesuit, or belonging to any other religious order. He did
not now seek to disturb that decision of their lordships.
On the contrary, it seemed to him, considering tho state of
religious feeling which prevailed in Ireland, that it would
not be desirable to receive any such nuncio or legation. He
did not in any manner eeek to disturb that permission, but
merely to show how we might establish a more direct inter-
course with Rome. At that time the Ministers of the
Court of Rome took offence at this clause, and decided that
as it imposed a limit on their free discretion, they would not
receive any Minister from England. tto that up to this
time the act had remained a dead letter. He thought the
time had now come for reviewing the subject. We had
been carrying on diplomatic intercourse by means of an
attache to the legation at Florence. That legation had now
ceased, so that at least there must be some modification.
He would ask what was the expedient to which Govern-
ment had had recourse. He presumed it had been neces-
sary to establish the attache either at the Court of Turin or
that of Naples. To either of these there were great objec-
tions. Turin was at a considerable distance from Rome,
and there certainly did not at present exist what the French
called compatibility between those two Governments. If
he were attached to Naples he would be 26 hours distant
from the city of Rome. This was a natural opportunity of
renewing diplomatic intercourse with Rome. The cessa-
tion of the legation at Florence would leave a fund suffi-
cient for the establishment of one at Rome, so that there
would be no increase of expense. The Ministers who now
advised the Pope were not the same as those who dissuaded
him from accepting the act of 1848. We were asking no
favotir of the Court of Rome, but merely that the diplo-
matic intercourse between the two Courts should be
more direct. From whatever side the overture might
come, it was one that both parties might fairly and
properly entertain. As to the inconvenience and disad-
vantage of the former system, he might appeal to a
gentleman who had held several diplomatic posts with
high honour to himself, and who was now in England en-
joying his well •earned renown. He meant Sir Hamilton
Seymour. lie might also appeal to the testimony of the
noble marquis near him (Normanby), who had filled the
office of minister at Florence, and whose courtesy and hos-
pitality would not easily be forgotten by his countrymen.
In the first place, there was an utter want of weight and
dignity in this system. It was impossible that a young man,
holding no higher rank than that of attache, whatever his
ability, living, as most attaches must live, uo three or four
flights of stairs, could compete in weight and influence with
the established missions of such powers as France and Aus-
tria. If he, with his slender salary, and at so early an age,
was able to compete successfully with other ministers, it
might become a question whether a lower salary would not
suffice for our ministers 'at Paris or St. Petersburg. With
all the personal merits of the gentleman who filed that
post, there had been a want of weight and dignity in his
representations. This had been felt in several cases. The
whole system as it now existed was neither more nor less
than a system of make-believe. We pretended in law not
to send a minister to Rome, and in fact we sent one there
from Florence. In public as in private life, a system of
make-believe was never so effective as a straightforward
mode of dealing. There was this further disadvantage.
It was perfectly optional with the Pope, or the Pope's
ministers, whether they would or would not receive our
minister. Au ambassador or a plenipotentiary had a right
to ask an audience of a sovereign ; but in that instance it
was entirely optional with the Pope whether he would
grant the audience ; and there had been occasions when the
attache had had great difficulty in obtaining an audience.
The circumstances which had recently made the Court of
Rome more willing to grant those interviews would probably
induce them to receive a regular minister at that court. By
limiting this intercourse to the lowest diplomatic rank and
salary, we could not expect to be so well served as if one of
the highest rank were sent there. Th, question of enlist-
ment in Ireland for the Pope was one that required to be
dealt with by a very firm and prudent hand. The Courts
of Berlin anti Petersburg, though not in connection with
the Church of Rome, had each several millions of Roman
Catholic subjects. Those courts had intimated to the Court
of Rome that ecclesiastical ministers would not be received
at Berlin or Petersburg ; and in consequence there had
Ix- en no resident minister of the Pope at either court, though
they had been occasionally sent on special services. We may
adopt the same course at those courts, that of employing an
authorised agent at home. That distinguished man,
Chevalier Bunsen, had at one time filled that office in Rome.
He was convinced that a mission at Rome would be most
conducive to the interests of art. The number of English
students in sculpture, painting, and architecture residing
v at
Rome was greater than those of any other country. It was
allowed that a two years' residence there was
necesrYor
for
the full development of the artists' powers. SirsJaosh a
Reynolds had borne remarkable testimony to this fact.
HQ
said. that before he went to Rome he imagined he had at-
tained something like excellence in painting ; but when he
got there he felt like a little child. Englandwas almost the
only nation in the world that did nothing for its students
esident abroad. The Royal Academy sent one student a
year to Rome, lint the Government did nothing at all. Mr.
Gibson, the eminent English sculptor resident at Rome,
w)aoee colossal statue of the Queen adorned the room adjqiniug

where theirlordships sat, stated that France, Russia, Austria,
Saxony, Naples, Denmark, Sweden, Belgium, and other
European powers, had academies at Rome—even Mexico had
an academy there. France had at Rome five ar itects, five
painters, five sculptors, two landscape paint .s, and two
engravers. Each student was sent there t, r five years.

The students from Russia were sent for s'‘: years, at an

expense of £l6O a-year each. The French academy and the I
Naples academy had professors of their 0%, n ; all the other
students were watched by the ministers of their respective
countries. In 1844 Mr. Gibson said he visited England after
an absence of 27 years. The late Sir Robert Peel sent for
him, and told him that the Government had some idea of
sending students to Rome, and wished him to give what
information he could on the subject from his knowledge of
the practice of foreign nations. He told Sir R. Peel that he

was entirely ignorant of the state of sculpture in England,
but that since his arrival he had been examining and had
seen defects of style, likwise an absence of those grand prin-
ciples which prevailed in Italian works. He said that the
English Government spent a large sum in the erection of

public monuments, but contributed nothing to the training

of their students. If the English Government were to fol-
low the example of other nations, they would in the course

of time have public monuments that would be a credit to
them. It was unnecessary to add anything to the testi-

mony of so eminent an authority. The Prince Consort
writing to the Earl of Ellesmere in 1856, had said : " No
country invests a larger amount of capital in works of art
than England, and in none is there a more extraordinary
neglect of art-education." Some might object that ques-
tions of art were of no national importance. But he was
sure that that objection would not proceed from the noble
earl (Granville), nor from the noble earl (Derby) on his
side of the house, whose attachment to art was well
known, and who, not many weeks ago, had presented
two valuable pictures to the National Portrait Gallery.
It was only by study at Rome that our students could
attain that elegance which distinguished Italian works.
He said, therefore, that if an academy could be established
at Rome, a mission to that city would be most useful and
valuable, and even necessary. But if it turned out that
this country were unwilling to manifest the same care for
the cultivation of the fine arts as even Denmark or Mexico,
stillet, mission would be most beneficial. Itwauld be a very
considerable boon to English artists i esident in Rome, who
were by no means a small or insignificant body. They
were a numerous, able, and devoted band, upon whose
studies and exertions depended the fate of the painting and
sculpture of this country in future years. In former years
he (Earl Stanhope) could conceive that there might be a
prejudice aBaluot oucl± cs Lui,oi a, foUnded UpOu religioao
considerations. But he submitted that this question was
absolutely precluded by the act of 1848. That act had de-
cided that upon certain conditions we were willing and de-
sirous to establish diplomatic relations with the court of
Rome. That he apprehended, therefore, was not the ques-
tion. It was no longer an open question whether it was
desirable or practicable to have :diplomatic relations with
Rome. These were the considerations which had led him
to bring this subject before their lordships. As to the ulti-
mate object, he hoped he might receive assurance that her
Majesty's Government were favourable to the proposal; as
to the exact time and circumstances, he felt that the ques-
tion must still remain undecided. He had at least endea-
voured to bring forward the subject in no party spirit,
avoiding every ground of offence to any class of opinions in
their lordships' house. He trusted that her Majesty's Go-
vernment, either then or thereafter, felt or might feel them-
selves enabled, by one and the same act, to place their diplo-
matic relations with Rome upon a sounder and better rela-
tion, and, at the same time, to encourage and protect the
cause of British art. (Hear, hear.) The noble earl con-
cluded by moving for a copy of the despatch referred to.
Lord WODEHOUSE said he hoped his noble friend
would not think him indifferent to the cause of art in this
country or abroad if he confined himself entirely to the di-
plomatic view of the question. At the same time he could
not help feeling that this was not a convenient time or op-
portunity to accomplish the end which his noble friend de-
sired. Before, however, he (Lord Wodehouse) sat down,
he wished to explain to the house what was,the exact posi-
tion of our relations with the court of Rome, for though
his noble friend had been generally most correct in his
statements, he had yet fallen into one error. His noble
friend had correctly stated the circumstances which led to
the passing of the act of 1848, and of that particular clause
of the act to which reference had mere especially been
made. But with regard to the views of the court of Rome
on the subject of the diplomatic relations between this
country and that eourt„ his noble friend would find that
the court of Rome thought different than it did with regard
to its relations with Prussia and Russia. The court of
Rome considered that the intimation, which he believed
was conveyed by the courts of Prussia and Russia to Rome,
that they did not wish to receive a minister who was an ec-
clesiastic, was very different from the intimation conveyed
by the House of Commons and the parliament of this coun-
try, viz., the law by which the prerogative of the sovereign
was restricted as to her diplomatic relations with one parti-
cular country in the world. and with one only. It was felt
to be not consistent with the dignity of the sovereign of
Rome to send a minister to this country whilst that limita-
tion upon the prerogative of the sovereign of this country
existed. He was not now going to discuss the policy of the
clause; he had no wish to raise that question. He onlywished
to state further that, this being the state of circumstances,
our relations had been carried on with Remo in the same
manner as they had been for a considerable time previously,
They were conducted under the able management of Mr.
Odo Russell, the attache at that court. His noble friend
no doubt, had some ground for saying that an attache was
not the same as a minister. Still Mr. Odo Russell had
conducted our affairs at Rome in a very able manner, and
very much to the satisfaction of the Government, and had
placed our relations with the Papal Government on a most
satisfactory footing. Under these circumstances the Go-
vernment had now to consider whether this would be a con-
venient opportunity for making a representation to the Papal
court, to induce that court to receive a Minister from this
country, without a Minister being sent from Rome to us.
He should state that the Court of Rome had expressed its
readiness to receive a simple mission. He thought that if
the Government were to express such desire at the present
moment, they would run the risk of placing themselves in
a humiliating position, and the court of Rome in one of
some embarrassment. The present moment was, he thought,
by no means a convenient one for taking such a step. Their
lordships knew what was the distracted state of Italy, and
the divided condition of the Papal States. It had b ~en be-
lieved very generally that her Majesty's Government had
taken a very forward part in pressing upon the Pope of
Rome the necessity of adopting changes in his Govern-
ment, and in urging him to taking a line of policy different
from that which he had been pursuing. But on this point
he (Lord Wodehouse) hoped there would be no misunder-
standing. Of course it was perfectly true that her Majesty's
Government, in common with others, were earnestly de-
sirous that the sovereign of Rome should make a change in
the administration of his dominions so as to render it more
consistent with the justice and well-being of those who were
placed under its rule. That they desired only in the in-
terests of humanity and of the peace of Europe. The great
difficulty in Rome had been the condition of the Papal
States. But whilst the British Government had desired
this, it had always been thought right that this country,
being pre-eminently a Protestant State, should not take so
prominent a part as others with regard to a Catholic
State. Their course had, therefore, been for the most part
to second the representations made by other Governments,
and chiefly that of France. Matters being in this posi-
tion, disapproving strongly as the Government did of the
present condition of the administration of the affairs
of the papacy, and the Pope being in so perilous a position,
they thought it would be extremely injudicious to propose
sending a minister to Rome at the present moment. Such
a request would very probably meet with a refusal by the
Pope, and would not tend to put our relations upon any
other than an unsatisfactory footing. (Hear.) He was not
aware that his noble friend had touched upon any other
point. If at any time the sovereign of Rome should express
a wish that a minister should be sent to Rome, her Majesty's
Government would make no objection, and power was
granted to them for the purpcse by the act of 1848 ; but her
Majesty's Government did not think the present opportu-
nity a good one for making any change. No inconvenience
arose at present, as his noble friend had stated, from Mr.
Ode Russell being placed under the embassy at Naples, for
he was able to correspond directly with the home Govern-
ment, although he sent his despatches to Naples to bo for-
warded to the home Government in the ordinary course.
The Earl of MALMESBURY thought their lordships
were much obliged to the noble earl for bringing this sub-
ject before the house. He entirely agreed with the noble
earl upon the diplomatic subject on which he had addressed
them. He did not distinctly see the force of saying that
this was not the right time and opportuniy for sending a
minister to Rome, because he thought the more serious the
affairs of Italy were the more this country required the
whole weight which it could give to its diplomacy in that
country. He should, however, be the very first man to
declare that, whomsoever her Majesty's Government should
think proper to send, it would be impossible fur him to act
with greater zeal, judgment, and discretion than that with
which Mr. Odo Russell had acted. (Hear.) He (the Earl
of Malmesbury) would say, from his own opportunities of
judging, that he had been most successful in his intercourse
not only with the ministers of the Pope, but with the Pope
himself, and this under the great disadvantage of not
holding a high rank. This disadvantage was chiefly felt in
contending with the ministers of other nations. Nothing
was more disadvantageous :or more impolitic than for a
gentleman in this position to be compelled to sit down in
conference with Ministets who had much greater authority
for urging their claims and advocating their cause than he
had. (Hear.) A point of detail had been referred to with
which he was not before acquainted, viz., that Mr. Odo
Russell had been attached to the court of Naples. He was
inclined to ask why this gentleman had not been attached
to the embassy at Turin, because it appeared to him that
Mr. Russell's correspondence would be much more conveni-
ently, rapidly, and safely sent from that part of Italy than
from Naples, considering the great distance of the latter
from London. This, however, was a point for the judg-
ment of the noble lord, and he only ventured to state his
°Pi'lion. Something hadteen said to the effect that in the
event of
our sending a Minister to Rome, the Pope might not
consent to his reception at this moment. But he (the Baer
14

of Malmesbury) could not understand the inconvenience of
the position, because, before we sent a Minister to Rome,
_ _ _

we should be able to ascertain whether he would be received

or not. And with regard to the compliment not being re
turned, instances had occurred in which that had not taken

place; for until very lately Switzerland had sent no Minis-
ter to this country—very much, as he thought, to her own
_ _

detriment—for if :she had, very much of what had happened

might have been prevented. The noble lord had seemed
to suppose that it was the intention of the supporters of the
view of the noble earl (Stanhope) to adopt the line of inter-

fering with the affairs of Italy. He was very glad to find
that spirit animating the noble lord opposite. He hoped
the noblo lord would not act upon that policy, in the pre-

sent state of our relations with the Italian States. After
the terrific scenes which had been enacted at Palermo, let
the noble lord be very careful how he pased an opinion

upon the acts of the Italian Governments. When her
Majesty's Government blamed, and very naturally
blamed, the slaughter and loss of life arising
from the bombardment of Palermo by the Nea-

politan ships, were they not precluded from any severity of
expression by history itself, and that very recent history ?
(Hear, hear.) Those who now condemned the Neapolitan

Government for bombarding Palermo might recollect that
only in 1849 the King of Sardinia, Victor Emmanuel him-
self, bombarded Genoa, and that the operation was carried
out by this self-same man Garibaldi. (Hear, hear.) God
forbid that he (the Earl of Malmesbury) should justify either
act. But if their lordships or her Majesty's Government
interfered in the affairs of Italy, they were only exposing
themselves to very severe observation, and even to great
blame, if they allowed such interference to take place after
they had given expression to their views by any rash
speeches in that house. (Hear, hear.)
The Marquis of NORMANBY could add the testimony
of his personal observation as to the inconvenience of con-
ducting our diplomatic relations with Rome in the present
manner. During three years' experience as Minister he
had received every possible assistance from the eminent men
who had been attaches at Rome. Lord Lyons, who was
during part of that time in almost daily correspondence
with him, complained frequently of the inconvenience he
experienced in treating with the Court of Rome and its Mi-
nisters, and of the extremely disagreeable position in which
English diplomatic agents were placed, as compared with
those of other powers. He (the Marquis of Normanby) felt
indeed how undesirable it was that a person in holy orders
should act as Minister from the Court of Rome in this
country, but he regretted that the course which was pursued
with so much success by the Courts of Prussia and Russia
was not stanptpri by this COUntrY .1..-
MALICIO US INJURIES TO PROPERTY ACT
AMENDMENT BILL.

Lord CHELMSFORD, in moving the second reading of
this bill, explained that its object was to cure a defect in the
law which had been discovered on the indictment of a per-
son for obstructing a steam-engine, and so causing the flood-
ing of a mine. The effender could not be convicted under
the act 7th and Bth Geo. IV., because the engine itself was
not injured, neither could he under that of the following
year, because he had not caused the water to be conveyed
to the mine, but only to accumulate there.
The LORD CHANCELLOR was sanguine that the
Consolidationßill, which had already passed their lordships
house, would become law before the prorogation, but in the
event of a different result, it was desirable by means of the
present bill to effect the improvement of the law required.
The bill was therefore read a second time.
ALLEGED SECESSION OF ENGLISH SHIP -
WR IGHTS TO THE FRENCH DOCKYARDS.
Viscount DUNGANNON asked the First Lord of the
Admiralty whether the report that from 400 to 500 work-
men had been discharged from the dockyard at Portsmouth,
there being no employment for them, and were now en-
gaged as shipbuilders at Cherbourg and other ports of
France, was correct. It was well known that great activity
prevailed in the French dockyards, whether with a view to
put the country in an efficient state of defence, or with a
view to an aggression on some other power, he could not of
course say ; but the report to which he referred had caused
great uneasiness in the public mind ; and he should there-
fore be glad to hear from the noble duke ether that the
statement was unfounded, or that, at all tilloats, the state
of our navy was such as to be quite saihfactory to the
noble duke.
The Duke of SOMERSET—In order that I may reply
with clearness to the question which the noble viscount
has put to me, I will divide it into two parts, First, is it
true that between 400 and 500 workmen have been dis-
charged from Portsmouth dockyard ? and, secondly, are
they engaged in shipbuilding at Cherbourg or other ports of
France? Now, as regards the first of these two questions,
I can answer that a good many men have been discharged
since the commencement of the financial year. Last year,
when I came into office there was a programme of very ex-
tensive works to be performed ; and on examination I found
thatwe should not have either enough money or men enow
to complete it within the year ; I therefore took another vote
for £lOO,OOO, and added considerably to the number of men
in the dockyard; and during the last four or five months of
the last financial year there was a larger number employed
than had ever been the case since the commencement of the
present century. In fact the number was almost double the
usual one. When the work had gone on for some time, I
was advised that if it continued at the same rate our stock
of timber would soon be exhausted ; and that it was neces-
sary, if wo wanted good wood, that it should proceed some-
what more slowly. Nevertheless, I determined to make no
alteration till the end of the financial year, and then I gave
directions that the number of men should not be suddenly
reduced, but that a few should be dismissed every week, so
that on the one hand the authorities might get rid of the in-
ferior workmen, and on the other, those who were discharged
might have a better opportunity to obtain work elsewhere.
In this manner the establishment was reduced from 20,000
to 17,000 and some hundreds, those dismissed being inferior
workmen. With regard to their having found employment
in France, I must say that, to the best of my belief, there is
no foundation whatever in that report. (Hear.) I saw the
statement to which the noble viscount refers some weeks
ago, and having made inquiries into its truth I was informed
that they had a sufficient number of native workm en in
both the Government and the private dockyards at Cher-
bourg. I learned also that it was extremely improbable that
English workmen would go there, because the highest rate
of wages was only 4 francs a day, whereas the rate in Eng-
land was Os.; and further, that 400 shipwrights had actually,
from motives of economy, been dismissed from the Govern-
ment establishment at Cherbourg. This may serve to quiet
the noble viscount's apprehensions. We have still more men
in our dockyards than we had in 1815, when we had the
greatest number ever known till now; our workmen have
not found employment in France, but the French Govern-
ment have dismissed a considerable number of their own
hands ; and it is very improbable, from the difference be-
tween the rate of wages in the two countries, that our men
will ever think of seeking employment across the Channel.
(Cheers.)
The Earl of SHAFTESBURY could corroborate what
had fallen from the noble duke. He happened to have pri-
vate information (on which, however, he could most confi-
dently rely) to the effect that two men had been over to
Cherbourg seeking employment, and that in a very short
time they were found to be ina state of starvation, and were
obliged to be sent back to this country. The only point on
which his information differed from that of the noble duke
was as to the highest rate of wages, which he was told was
5 francs instead of four. He was anxious that the truth
should be known, lest any other English shipwrights should
be tempted to go over on a wild-goose chase to France, and
thus subject themselves to hardship and privation. (Hear.)
Lord DUNGANNON was perfectly satisfied with the
noble duke's explanation, but he had felt the question was
one that ought to be set at rest. (Hea'r, hear.)
REFRESHMENT HOUSES AND WINE LICENSES
BILL.

Earl GRANVILLE, in a few words which were inau-
dible in the gallery, moved that their lordships go into
committee on this bill.
The Earl of SAAFTESBURY said that as the measure
appeared to be considered a supply bill they were precluded
froni making any alterations in it ; but he must say that it
struck him as being fully as much a police bill as a bill of
supply. The measure had been very much improved, in-
deed, during its passage through the other house, but there
were still two or three points 'in it that were deserving of
note. In the first place, there were a great number of re-
freshment houses on which a license of 10s. dd. per annum
would operate as a very heavy tax. If any of their lord-
ships ever went into the bye-ways of London they would
see places where they sold sheep's-heads and fish, and where
the whole of the furniture was not worth the price of the
license, and vet they were refreshment houses, much fre-
quented by the poor. Another question that struck him
was, as to the extent of the bill's operation. On the Hope
estate, Lord Portman's estate, the Duke of Portland's, and
many other very extensive ones, the tenants were strictly
prohibited by their leases from opening refreshment houses.
But the point that struck him as most serious was the very
extreme power which was given to the police. By the 18th
clause any policeman or constable might enter any refresh-
ment house whenever he pleased, and might go down into
the cellar or up into the garret—(laughter)—at any time of
the day or night. He quite agreed as to the propriety of allow-
ing the visits of the police in cases where wine or spirituous
liquors were sold; but he could not see any need for them
in the case of confectioner's shops, many of which were ex-
ceedingly respectable. In the 39th clause there was a pro-
vision which had never before found its way into an Act of
Parliament—a provision making it a penal offence in any
seller of wine, beer, or cider, to harbour the police. So
that if by any means a policeman were allured into one
of those places, here was a provision which declared his
being found there to be a penal offence. He knew that
this had given cause for a great deal of apprehension ; he
knew that many people were extremely uneasy about it ;
and he believed that the Government themselves were ready
to admit that this was a provision which required amend-
ment. He was not going to move any amendment, because
this was to be considered a supply bill, and just at the pre-
sent moment it was not desirable that they should raise the
question of the rights of the house as to supply bills. At the
present moment he refrained from making any motion, but
the public must see that if restrictions were imposed upon
the free action of that house it would be very detrimental'
indeed to the public service. Reserving his personal opinion
as to the rights and privileges of the house, yielding only'

to the circumstances in which they wero placed, and be-
lieving it to be an infringement of their rights and privi-

leges to be debarred from making any amendment in this

bill, ho abstained from moving any amendment.
The Earl of WICKLOW did not know why Scotland
and Ireland should be deprived of a benefit of this kind, for
he understood the principle of this bill to be that it was to
induce the people of this country to substitute a more whole-
some beverage for that fiery spiritual beverage—(a laugh)
—to which they were now accustomed. If there were any
portion of the empire to which this principle was most ap-
plicable it was to those two countries, Scotland and Ire-
land, where the manufacture of ardent spirits was princi-
pally carried on, and where, consequently, there was com-
paratively the greatest consumption. If they were to
substitute wine for spirituous liquors, surely there was no
portion of the empire that stood more in need of the benefits
of this bill. As those two portions of the empire were
to be deprived of the blessings of Parliamentary reform, he
could not understand why they were also to be deprived of
the benefits of beverage reform.
The Earl of DONOUG ['MORE said he understood that
this was to be treated as a supplybill, and he was very sorry
to hear it, because the greater part of the bill related to mat-
ters with regard to which that house was in the habit of

legislating. He agreed with the noble earl (Earl Shaftes-
bury) that this was not a proper time to enter into a dis.
cussion of the privileges of the House of Lords, and, there
fore, he should be very unwilling to introduce any amend
ment. But there were certain clauses in the bill to which
he entertained a strong objection, and he asked the noble
earl whether any amendment of them would be a breach of
the privileges of the House of Commons ? The whole of
the licensing system under this bill differed essentially from
that under which the licensed victuallers now obtained their
licenses. The bill proposed to introduce a number of other
persons into the trade. Now he did not ask for the licensed
victuallers any monopoly. He did not think the house would
support any suoh monopoly, but at least they had a right to
demand that the conditions under which they were placed
should be the same as those under which other persons were
placed who had the same privileges. Now a licensed vic-
tualler had to apply to a magistrate, who had complete dis-
cretion as to whether he would or would not grant him a
license. He had to go to the magistrates to obtain a certifi-
cate for a license, and then he went to the excise, and upon I
that certificate the excise granted a license. But what was
the course to be pursued under this bill ? The person who
wished to obtain a license did not go to the magistrates, but
to the excise, and the excise served a notice on the magis-
trates, and if the magistrates did not in a certain number of
days ontor a navoat tbo 1ie...0 wonl a bo granted as a matter
of course; and the magistrates, moreover, could not enter
that caveat without stating the specific grounds on which
they did so. Now that was not putting these persons in the
same position as the licensed victuallers ; and for the pur-
pose of putting them in that position he would, if it were
competent for him to do so, move to insert words in the 10th
clause to the effect that no license should be granted except
on the production of the certificate of magistrates, in the
same way as they granted certificates to licensed victuallers.
He should also move to insert words in the 13th clause. The
noble earl opposite asked the reason why Ireland and Scot-
land were not included in this bill. He thought he could
tell him. He believed that when the bill was first introduced
it was intended to include those two countries, but it met
with such opposition that if it had not been restricted to Eng-
land it would not have been carried. He thought the bill
would be a failure, and he was not sorry to see that the expe-
rimentum in corpore viii, instead of being on Ireland, would
for the first time be tried on England.
The Earl of HARRINGTON said this was a mixed ques-
tion, partly fiscal and partly otherwise. lie did not object
to the free trade part of the till ; but what he objected to
was the new licensing system. Intoxicating drinks were
the great causes of immorality, of irreligion, and disease ;
and this bill would place crime more within the reach of the
people. He denied that light wines, as they were called,
were so innocent a beverage as they were said to be. , Beer
contained only eight per cent, of alcohol, but wine con-
tained from 10 to 40 per cent. The most eminent authori-
ties were agreed in stating that the people of this country
taxed themselves to the amount of more than 50 millions a
year for wines, spirits, beer, and tobacco, and he deprecated
any measure which would place alcoholic drinks more
within the reach of the people.
Earl GRANVILLE said he gave the noble earl credit for
the consistency and earnestness with which he advocated
the temperance movement. The real question was not
whether wine was a good or a bad thing, but whether this
bill on the whole would encourage temperance. The noble
earl thought it right to go to the extreme, and he recom-
mended that a measure should be carried to enable the
ratepayers to prevent a man from drinking a glass of beer.
The Earl of HARRINGTON—No, only not in public-
houses.
Earl GRANVILLE—But the noble earl would impose
restrictions of that kind. But there was another way of
promoting habits of temperance, by introducing the use of
milder and less pernicious beverages, so as gradually to
wean the people from those abominable liquors which they
were accustomed now to consume. The right hon. gentle-
man, in introducing this bill, had been actuated by such
an intention. Some of the objections which had been taken
to this bill would vanish as soon as they were looked at.
One noble earl had spoken very indignantly about certain
clauses which he did not appear to have examined for
himself. He had referred to the 39th clause as dealing with
the police in a manner never thought of in any legisla-
tive enactment before. But if he had read the clause, he
must have seen in the margin that it was derived from the
10th and 11th Victoria, chapter 89, section 84. As to the
grievance of the keepers of refreshment-houses being called
upon to pay 10s. 6d. for a license, and to a number of those
houses being placed in a difficulty by their leases not allow-
ing them to sell articles of this description, no such com-
plaints had reached the Treasury from the parties them-
selves since this bill was brought before Parliament. In his
complaint of the police having access to all those houses,
the noble earl laboured under a great mistake, for he sup-
posed that everybody would be obliged to take out a license,
and would be liable to that police visitation. But it was
only to those who kept nighthouses, which were open from
nine o'clock at night till five o'clock in the morning, that
the clause applied, and it was most necessary, in order to
secure the public tranquillity, and for other reasons, that
the police should exercise some superintendence over those
houses. It was quite true that, by the wording of the
clause the police would have a right to enter those houses
in the day time as well as at night. That was a question
which the Government had considered ; but if hereafter it
should be thought advisable to alter the police acts in that
respect, there might be some further legislation on the
matter. As to whether their lordships' house had any
power to alter the provisions of such a bill as this, he would
not again raise the question of constitutional privilege. This
bill no doubt was one partly of a fiscal character, and partly
one which affected general policy. Their lordships, how-
ever, could deal with the latter portion only by amending
or expunging the clauses relating thereto, and it was the in-
variable practice of the House of Commons to consider
themselves obliged to reject any bill of this kind which had
been so amended. Of course it might then be open to the
Government in the other House of Parliament to re intro-
duce the bill, but it would only be worth while to
adopt that course in order to attain some very
important object. A noble lord had expressed his wish to
make an alteration in the bill, with a view to give the
magistrates the same powers with regard to wine licenses
that they now possessed with regard to public-houses. But
one of the main objects of the bill was to diminish those
very powers. At present the magistrates took upon them-
selves to decide what number of public-houses we. e neces .
Sary in a district, and the result was a monopoly injurious
to the consumer, and not beneficial to the public morals.
Therefore, one of the great advantages of the bill was that
it would make a change in that system, and any amend-
ment to the effect which the noble lord proposed could not
be agreed to. Another noble lord had raised an objection,
that it was hard for Ireland and Scotland to be excluded
from the benefits of this bill, and his noble friend had
volunteered an answer to that, saying that when the bill
was first introduced it did apply to Ireland and Scotland,
but that the Irish and Scotch made such an opposition to
it, that the Government found it impossible to maintain
that point. Unfortunately, this was quite wrong, and his
noble friend had been greatly misinformed. Ireland and
Scotland were not in the bill originally. He believed that
in Ireland opinions were divided on the subject, some being
in favour of the bill there, and some against it; but in
Scotland all the opinions he had heard were strongly in
favour of it. According to the usual precedent, when this
bill had been passed for England, a similar bill would be
introduced, applicable to Scotland and to Ireland, with such
modifications as might be desirable on account of the
different police regulations and other circumstances of the
country.
The house then went into committee on the bill.
The Earl of HAR RINGTON drew attention to the 13th
clause, defining the new powers of the magistrates. He
proposed to strike out from line 27 to line 41, And to put in
some words, giving the magistrates the same powers, with
regard to those wine licenses, that they now possessed with
regard to other licenses, " in the exercise of a fair discretion,
as provided by the act of the 6th George IV., chapter 6,
section 1."
Earl GRANVILLE _remarked that he had already stated
the reasons why he could not agree to this amendment.
Lord DENMAN expressed his own opinion that, with
the vast number of houses for the sale of drink that were
now open in this country, the bill was quite unnecessary.
The consumption of wine already amounted to 727,000 gal-
lons; which would be raised to 900.000 in the first year of
the treaty, and he had observed that the price of wine had
been reduced throughout the country during the last few
days, in consequence of the reduction of the Customs duty.
He thought there was no need to provide additional facilities
for the traffic in intoxicating drinks.
The amendment was withdrawn, and the bill passed
through committee.
After a few words across the table between the noble

lords,
Earl GRANVILLE fixed the third reading for Monday
next.

Sir John Bariard'is Act Repeal Bill passed through corn•
mittee.
The Sale of Gas Bill was read a third time.
Their lirdshipa then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(YESTERDAY.)
The SPEAKER took the chair at four o'clock.
CLARE ELECTION.
The Chairman of the committee appointed to try the
merits of the Clare election petition brought up the report,
which stated that the committee wore of opinion Mr. Cal-
cutt, the sitting member, had been duly returned.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.
The Aylesbury and Buckingham Railway Bill and West
End of London and Crystal Palace Railway Bill were read
a third time. The Hay Railway Bill was considered and
ordered for third reading.