The Sun.
London, England, 1860-02-08 00:00:00

.................11
to England is her interest in the state of Europe—(hear,
hear)—her interest in doing everything she can to promote
peace, to maintain the balance of power—(hear, hear)—
and to prevent the commission of acts by any
nation, particularly by any of the great Powers, which
may create alarm and shake the public confidence in the
maintenance of peace. (Hear, hear.) Therefore I think it
would have been most unfriendly of her Miejesty's Govern-
ment if they had not laid before that of France all the ob-
jections which, in an European sense, would arise to the
aggrandisement of the French territory which it was ru-
moured was in contemplation. It is hardly necessary to
dwell upon those objections to your lordships. No doubt
France, occupying so magnificent a geographical position as
she does, and having so gallant a people, who have lately
shown how able they are to defend themselves upon all oc-
casions, cannot pretend to be jealous of a country like Pied-
mont, even though her power should be increased by the
addition of a certain number of Italian subjects. On the
other hand, there is no doubt that this question goes beyond
the extension to the Alps, and that if you go to the Alps
there is no good reason why you should not at a subsequent
period go beyond the Rhine. Were this not so, however,
it is clear that the annexation of Savoy to France would
give rise to great European difficulty. Among the most
noble words ever uttered by a great Sovereign at the head
of a victorious army were those used by the Emperor a
the French at Milan, when he told the Italians that there
friends were his friends, and their enemies his enemies ;
that he had undertaken the war for their advantage, and
not for the aggrandisement of France; that, although
there might be some persons who were ignorant of the
public opinion of Europe, he was not one of them, and
that moral influence was of more advantage to a great
nation than were barren conquests. These were noble
words ; but if Savoy were annexed to France it would enable
the enemies to say that his policy was not consistent with
this declaration, and would excite doubts which would be
most injurious to the peace of Europe. In our communes tions with the French Government we have gone into the
question more fully than it is necessary to discuss it to your
lordships, and we have done so in the confidence that our
observations would be received with a feeling as friendly as
that by which they were dictated. I beg your lordships
clearly to understand that our policy is not that of nation-
alities, alluded to by the noble marquis—(hear)—nor is it
to separate ourselves from other European Powers. Upon
the Italian question we are at this moment in communica-
tion. with France, Sardinia, and Austria, and we shall be
happy to communicate with any other nations who feel an
interest in the settlement of thatqueationas affectingeither
Italy or Europe. Further than this we do not intend to ad-
vocate or insist upon any particular mode of carving out Italy;
we do not say that the central provinces must be joined to
Sardinia ; we do not assert that there may not be a central
monarchy in Italy. We do not say or deny that the great
majority of the people of Tuscany are in favour of the grand
dukes. If that is so, lot them show and assert their opi-
nions and it will not be for England to object to the re-
storation of their old sovereign. Our simple policy—that
which we have been urging upon other Powers, and in re-
gard to which we have been met very cordially by France,
and as cordially as we could expect by Austria—is to avoid
any armed interference in the affairs of the peninsula, and
to secure that the Italians shall be left to judge what is
good for themselves, and in what mode their ideas of liberty
and independence can best be carried out. (Hear, hear.)
This motion itself has been framed in very courteous terms,
and, as stated by the noble marquis, is intended to co-
operate with and strengthen her Maj sty's Government. I
am of opinion that it would not have that effect. Your
lordships are perfectly well aware that at this moment the
enemies of the Government of France are trying to raise a
cry that the religion and commerce of that country are
being sacrificed to English interests, and under these cir-
cumstances I do not think that it would assist her Majesty's
Government that a motion made by the noble marquis, who
has to-night spoken of the Emperor with very great respect,
but who at the same time holds very peculiar and very
strong opinions upon continental politics, should be forced
upon them ; especially when they declare their intention
upon all suitable occasions to give their advice and exert
their influence to prevent that which the noble marquis
deprecates. I quite acquit the noble marquis of havins, in-
tended that the Government or your lordships should pledge
themselves to war or menaces of any description. (Hear,
hear.) But, even in its more limited sense, I think the
motion would rather weaken than strengthen the Govern-
ment, and therefore I hope that the noble marquis will not
think it necessary to press it to a division.
Earl GREY—I think that the house is much obliged to
the noble marquis for bringing this subject forward. It
seems to me to be impossible to over estimate its import-
ance, and I confess that I should have heard with great
pleasure a different conclusion to the speech of my noble
friend who has just sat down. I should like to have heard
him state that her Majesty's Government would agree to
the address proposed. The statement which he has just
made affords the clearest proof of the necessity for this mo-
tion, because I think your lordships will agree with me
that it is difficult to conceive anything more alarming than
some of the language which fell from my noble friend.
Nothing can well be more unsatisfactory than that which
he describes to have been the language of the French Go-
vernment on this subject, coupled with that which has been
used in the semi-official newspapers of France. It is, in-
deed, difficult to conceive that this scheme of the annexa-
tion of Savofto France has not gone further than we could
wish. That annexation would be so pregnant with evil to
this country and to Europe that it becomes her Majesty's
Government to use their best endeavours to avert it. I quite
agree with my noble friend that, as far as we are at present
informed of the facts, no man in this house can wish that
war should be resorted to to prevent such an arrangement
being effected; but there is a great deal short of war which
may be done by a nation to prevent the adoption of mea-
sures which are injurious to its interests and to those of
the world ; -and I can conceive no case which calls for
more energetic remonstrance than the annexation
which is supposed to be in contemplation. Ido not
pretend to say that the annexation of Savoy to France
would materially altee the balance of power in Europe.
Whatever may be the obvious objections to this ex-
tension of the frontiers of France, still, when we look at
what the power of that great empire is at present, I cannot
think that the addition of Savoy of itself would throw so
great a weight into the scale as to be of any very serious
importance. Nor do I believe that the honour of this coun-
try is involved in preventing the arrangement if the two
parties more immediately interested should agree to it. But,
although it may not in its direct consequences be so injuri-
ous as to induce this country to resist it by an appeal to force,
still I think if we look at the subject closely we shall be
convinced that few events would be more injurious both to
this country and to Europe than the proposed annexation,
as well from its indirect effects as from the principle which
it would tend to establish if it were to be carried out on the
grounds that have been put forward in support of it. My
lords, in considering this question we cannot lose sight of
the reasons that have been urged in its favour by journals in.
France, which have an importance that does not usually be-
long to newspapers unless they have the oountenance of the
Government. Now, what are those reasons ? My noble
friend has already referred to that most extraordinary article
which appeared in the Pattie a few days ago, and which I
venture to say must have astounded every one of your
lordships who read it. That article states that two measures
cannot bo applied to Savoy and to Italy; and that it is in-
tolerable that the Government of Sardinia should interfere
with the manifestation of the wishes of the Savoyards.
(Hear, hear.) I think that every one of your lordships
coneetrs in the principle that no nation ought to bo com-
pelled by foreign force to submit to a Government to which
it is averse. The passage in the Queen's Speech in which
that principle was enunciated with regard to Italy received,
I believe, the unanimous approval of your lordships. But,
my lords, it would indeed 130 to push that principle to new
and somewhat dangerous lengths if it is to be assumed,
not only that a nation, which is de facto in the enjoy-
ment of self-government, is not to be coerced by the
arms of a foreign Power, but that you are to go beyond that
plain and simple rule, and to say that even where a settled
and long established Government exists—where a people
are living contentedly and peaceably under the rulers who
have for centuries reigned over them, a few agitators are to
be permitted to declare that the opinion of the country is
the other way ; that it wishes to shake off the authority to
which it is by law subject ; and that it is intolerable in the
Government to adopt any means of counteracting the efforts
of those who seek to subvert it. Why, if this rule of inter-
national right and wrong is to be recognised, we must be
supposed to have acted most unwarrantsbly in 1848, when
we would not suffer persons to put the question to the peo-
ple of Ireland whether or not the dominion of England over
that country should be continued. (Cheers.) Is it to be
held as an indication that the people of Savoy are hostile to
the existing rule, that a few individuals get up demonstra-
tions against the Government ; and is it to be maintained that
the Government, instead of putting these persons down by
the strong hand, must allow them to have their own way,
and then have the question of the continuance of the exist-
ing authority submitted to the vote? I venture to say, if
that principle is to be established, that no Government in
Europe is safe for a day. (Cheers.) Would that principle
be allowed by France itself ? How would the present Em-
peror receive the proposal that it should be again submitted
to the people of France whether they would have an Empire,
a Red Republic, or an Orleanist or Legitimist dynasty ? I
am sure thet anybody putting forward such a proposal against
the settled Government in France would meet withyeg
prompt repression. (Hear.) We are further told that the
Alps are the natural boundary of France, andcommunitytit the
Savoyards are united to theFrenchpeople
as My
lords, of language.
w e
Do eas di mi n i
cannot these
helpp
seeingi whither
these lead. Do not the majority of the people of Belgium
speak French as well as the inhabitants of Si
eor
the desire of unjust
n ah
su thee
by h
a dangerprinciples ? M
grounds as these are to be assig
•
territorial acquisition on the part of France,
kw_
ind may not hat security
has Europe that other aggressions of the same
pp appears to me, therefore, that
be attempted ? (Cheers.
acountry has a right to view
circumstances, is one which this
the proposal for joining)s It
toy a toe
France, under present
at this house might bo induced to
should have hoped t
with the greatest apprehension and alarm, and I certainly
nes* t
agree by a unanimous vote to the address which the noble
s apes that
marquis has moved. lam the last person to
t.he.mott ion should be pressed contrary to the desire of her
:Majesty's , e's Government. Tam persuaded that if it were so
-pressed,a even though it wore carried, it would do more harm
than good—(cheers)—and for this simple reason—that it
would make it appear that there exists a difference of opinion
oe
schemeliNeN.veereN It'
to come
which are
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aun
pi
divisiontpe ods idn t
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the
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in England, where I believe no such difference really exists.
leenndueidu—beirt
aNlrvefhfy (Cheers.)i rtecol
rhibyeearvet:
on,
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ngr
selwi,t
dahwbeye r
aended—it
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dissenthteat
ppear a
from what I think is our general opinion. But it
would be a very different matter, if her Majesty's Govern-
ment could be induced to concur in this motion. I cannot
help feeling that at this moment a unanimous expression of
the sentiments of this .house would have great influence on
the opinion of France and of the world. Powerful as France
may be, I do not believe that she would despise such a
manifestation, backed as it would be by the views of every
other country in Europe. (Hear.) I would therefore ear-
nestly entreat my noble friend who spoke last seriously to
consider this subject. I would especially ask him what
motive ha can have for resisting this motion. My noble
friend who brought it forward stated most distinctly that
he did so without in any way implying the most distant
censure on the Government. On the contrary, his first
words were those of thanks to the Government for the
course which they have taken. The only object of the mo-
tion is to strengthen their hands in pursuing the same line
of pcOicy which, if I understood my noble friend aright, it
is their intention, of their own accord, to follow. The sin-
gle objection, which, as I gathered from my noble friend,
they have to this motion, is the fear that it might be mis-
interpreted in France. My lords, I cannot believe that
there is any ground for such a fear ; I cannot suppose that
the Emperor of the French would see anything unfriendly
towards himself in our expressing our opinion against the
measuro which he is supposed to contemplate. On the con-
trary, I think if the opinion of this house and the country