The Sun.
London, England, 1860-03-23 00:00:00

any question for the adjournment of the house on Friday.
(Hear, hear.)

norshire spoke of the inconsistency and eelfcontradiction
into which public men were drawn by the pressure of
events, he (e it J. Pakington) asked whether, in the con-
duct of the noble lord with respect to the commercial treaty,
and in that of the right, hon. gentleman the Chancellor of
the Exchequer with respect to the income tax, they might
not at that very moment see before them a confirmation of
that inconsistency into which public men might be pressed.
Those opinions had been expressed by men of opposite
`sides with respect to politics, but the only advantage he
wished to draw from them was to appeal to the
noble lord whether, having to deal with the great
question before them, it was worthy of his name and
his connection with this'great subject, that he should place
before them that meagre bill containing nothing but that
one proposal, which he trusted the house would not con-
sent to, overwhelming intelligence and property merely by
the force of numbers. (Hear, hear.) He (Sir J. Paking-
ton) did not object to the addition of large numbers to the
constituencies ; indeed, having been a party to a bill di-
rected to that very object, he could have no objection to
the principle of the numerical increase of the constituen-
cies ; nor did he object to the extension of the franchise to
working men. He had seen working men to whom he
would as readily gave the franchise as to any gentleman in
that house. At the same time, he must say that he was
not there to be the patron of the working classes ; but
while he was quite willing that they should have the fran-
chise, he contended that they were not entitled to a mono-
poly of the representation. (Conservative cheers.) Nor
would he give the monopoly of the representation to the
wealthy class. He would give that monopoly to no class.
(Cheers.) And here he would call to his aid witnesses to
whose evidence he would take the liberty to refer. In cer-
tain speeches delivered by the hon. member for Birming-
ham and the hon. member for Rochdale, there were pas-
sages which gave him the right to call them to his support
when he maintained that to no class should a monopoly of
the representation be given. (Hear.) The first speech of
the hon. member for Birmingham was one which ho deli-
vered at Liverpool on the Ist of December last, and in
which, so far as the expression of opinion went to which he
was about to refer, he quite agreed with him, and only
asked him how it was that he was now ready to give his
support to a measure which proposed to transfer the
monopoly of the representation to a single class of the
community. The hon. member on that occasion declared,
in the strongest possible manner, against the impropriety
of such a policy ; and again, on the Gth of
January last, he said at Birmingham, that he wanted the
industry of the country to be represented. (Hear, hear.)
How, then, could the hon. member, if he still adhered to
that sentiment, stand up in his place and support a bill
which would virtually place the representation in the hands
of a class ? (Conservative cheers.) And now he would call
to his aid the hon. member :for Rochdale, who, he found,
not only expressed an opinion in complete conformity with
that of the hon. member for' Birmingham, but went on to
propose a plan by which a remedy might be devised for the
evil of which he complained. It was in the month of
August last, on the hon. gentleman's landing from America,
and being informed that a seat in the present Cabinet was
awaiting his decision, that, in addressing a meeting in Liver-
pool, he said, in reference to a redistribution of seats, that
he thought it would be the fairest and most convenient
course to portion out the larger towns into wards, assigning
to each ward a member. He remarked that the aristocracy
and wealthy class generally lived in one ward, and the in-
dustrious class in another and in that way there would be no
danger of any particular class obtaining an ascendancy in
the representation. Here, then, was a plan for the purpose
of remedying the evils of which they complained in the bill
before the house; and let him whilst on that point, ask the
noble lord how it was that in the year 1854 he enunciated a
plan for giving representation to the minority ? The plan,
undoubtedly, was not popular, but he (Sir. J. Pakington)
had always given the noble lord credit for great good sense
and correct judgment in making that proposition, the
object of which, as he apprehended, was to prevent the re-
presentation being thrown into the hands of one class, and
the other class being inspired with feelings of [discontent.
(Hear, hear.) He (Sir J. ?akington) wished now to state
to the house a plan which had been brought to his notice in
an anonymous communication from Manchester, and
which, though he by no means meant to recommend its
adoption to the house as entirely eligible, was at any
rate well worthy the consideration of the Government and
of the house. It was a plan which was said to be in opera-
tion in the town of Frankfort, and had evidently been de-
• vised for the express purpose of guarding against the great
evil of any one class monopolising political power. The pro-
posal was, that each class should elect its representatives.
Such a plan could not, of course, be carried out in this
country without the consideration of a great many details.
Thus, for example, if it should be decided that Manchester
should return three members, the plan would be something
like this, that householders to the value of £lO and down-
wards should return one member ; that householders be-
tween £lO and £25 should return the second; and that
householders above £25 should return the third. If Man-
chester should return only two members a different line
would have to bo drawn. As he had already remarked, it
was a plan which would be attended with great difficulty
in its execution in this country, but he asked the house to
bear in mind that it was evident any such plan would com-
bine two great advantages—namely, that each class would
be represented, and that the franchise might be made as
low as they pleased, without any danger of a particular
class obtaining a preponderance in the representation.
(Hear, hear.) He had now mentioned several different plans
—those of the hon. member for Rochdale, the noble lord's,
and that in operation at Frankfort and others which showed
how very generally the object was recognised of giving re-
presentation to all classes, and monopoly to none. And new
he could not help reminding the house of Lord Grey's sug-
gestion, that, rather than act hastily, it would be well to ap-
point a committee of Privy Council, consisting of men of all
parties, to consider the whole subject, with a view of ascer-
taining
what might be conceded on the one hand and what
ought to be withheld on the other. Ho did not know how
far the noble lord might have considered the suggestion of
Lord Grey, but he might be permitted to remind him that
there was a precedent for the course which-that noble lord
re.;ommended, in the case of the AustralianiColonies Act
of 1850, when a committee of Privy Council, composed of
men of the most different political principles, was appointed
to inquire into the subject. Their recommendations were
immediately received by the house, and he thought the
precedent was one well worthy the attention of the noble
lord. They wanted the great question of the representation
' to be placed on a fair and substantial footing, and nothing
could more powerfully conduce to such an end than that
they should endeavour to forget that there were two sides
of that house, and to regard themselves as a body of Eng-
lish gentlemen anxious only for the just and judicious
settlement of this question. (Hear, hear.) If such an in-
quiry as he had suggested were instituted, he did not think
10 men could be found in that house who would oppose the
recommendations' and the alarm would be-removed which
was founded, not on any objection to the working classes,
but on the bare fact that this was a bill to throw a mono-
poly of the representation into the hands of a class. He
hoped they would now hear no more of that absurd expres-
sion "fancy franchisee' —(Conservative cheers)—used by
persons who nevertheless declared that the lodgerfranchise
was not a fancy franehise. (Continued cheering.) They
all knew how that expression arose. It arose last year
when hon, gentlemen opposite were praising their (Mr. Dis-
raeli's) bill in private and speaking against it in public.
(Ironical cheers.) It was true that, driven to find fault
with something, that expression was invented. The bill to
which he referred contained some broad principles of Re-
form, one of which was a lodger franchise ; and he (Sir
John Pakington) entertained the opinion that the best and
boldest measure of reform ever introduced into that house
was that proposal to extend the franchise to the respect-
able lodger. (Conservative cheers.) That would give
them no addition of men belonging only to one class,
and they would be men, also, who would exercise
the franehise with caution and deliberation. There was one
rnore'subject on which he wished to say a few words, and
that was the question of adopting the rating as the basis of
the franchise. He thought himself that a rating woul.l be
the best basis for it; and as the Government had adopted it
in the case of Ireland, and also in that of Scotland, he kne v
no good reason why it should not also be adopted in the
English bill. The noble lord said, however, that he had a
bill to correct the • inequalities incidental to the rating in.
England and Wales, and that being so, he hoped this diffi-
culty would not much longer affect this part of the question.
He wished to guard both sides of the house against the
error of supposing that a £6 rating franchise would be equi-
valent to a rental one of D. The inequalities between the
rental and rating values ranged from a minimum of 4 per
cent. at Tamworth and Shrewsbury, to a maximum of 31
per cent. at Plymouth. With those objections, or rather that
particular one upon which he bad so much dwelt, he might
be asked how it was that he did not object to the second
reading of the bill. He felt that he was not open to that re-
mark. He quite agreed with his hon. friend near him that
they could not oppose the second reading of the bill, under-
standing the principle of it to be an extension of the fran-
chise. To that principle he made no objection. They might,
certainly, have moved an abstract resolution as an amend-
ment to the question of the second reading, but they were
unwilling to follow a bad example. (Conservative cheers
and laughter.) They would not do as they had been done
by—(cheers)—but they took the wiser course of awaiting
the discussion of the bill in committee. (Hear.) 'When
that time came, he hoped, and indeed he confidently anti-
cipated, that the common sense of the house would come to
the rescue. (Hear.) In the meanwhile he was anxious
that the question should be settled on broad, sound, and
liberal principles. He was willing to see the franchise ex-
tended ; but let it be extended with prudence and safety.
Seeing, then, the spirit in which they and that (the Oppo •
sition) side of the house ware desirous of approaching the
subject, he did hope the noble lord would devote the inter •
vening time to the consideration of the question, whether
it might not be well to have some inquiry previous to pro-
ceeding further in a question of such magnitude. If the
noble lord, however, should be unwilling to consider the
fairness of an inquiry, he (Sir J. Pakington) would only
express his hope that when they did go into committecii,
they would do so in a calm, fair, and dispassionate spirit,
and he trusted the result would be the passing of a measure
worthy of the British Parliament, and beneficial to the Bri-
tith people. (Cheers.)

DARTMOUTH ELECTION.
Mr. LYGON moved that the minutes of the evidence
taken before the select committee on the Dartmouth elec-
tion petition, in session 1859, be laid before the house.—
Ordered.
REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE BILL.
Mr. STANFELD, who commenced his remarks by
alluding to a speech of Mr. Disiaeli, and complaining that
the right hon. gentleman, after stating strong objections to
the measure, had declined to take the sense of the house
upon it, leaving the responsibility of passing, what he con-
sidered a bad measure, upon the noble lord who prepared it.
He (Mr. Stanfeld) believed, that so far as the extension of
the franchise was concerned, and with- regard to its effects
upon the working classes, the calculations of the hon. mem-
ber for Birminghaniwould prove more correct than the cal-
culations of the right hon. gentleman the member for Bucks.
In his opinion the returns before the house showed that in
large manufacturing towns the propositions of the noble
lord would have but little effect on the representation, and
yet he cordially supported the bill, not because it met the
advanced opinions which he entertained, but as an instal-
ment of reform. This was a step, though cautious and
hesitating, towards the admission of the working classes
to the franchise—it was the initiation of a new era, and
an acknowledgment of the fact that all classes were entitled
to a share in the representation. Regarding fitness to
exercise the franchise, he thought that desire was a
sufficient test, and looked upon apathy as the worst evil
they could have to encounter, as it struck at they prin-
ciple of independence, He utterly disbelieved that danger
would result from the representation of any class, and he
looked forward with hope and confidence to the time when
all classes would have their share in it. He denied that
there was apathy in the country upon the question of re-
form, and attributed the absence now of such excitement
and organisation as prevailed in 1832 to a change in
the position and in the habits of thought of the
people, and to the influence of the cheap press.
Still, however that question might be solved in the minds
of honourable membns, he believed it was those who were
most hostile to all such changes that ought to feel it was
especially fortunate that the question came on to be settled
when the tide of popular feeling was at the lowest, and when
it was possible to pass the minimum of reform—a bill of
little real concessions gained by political diplomacy. He
believed in the progress of opinion upon that as upon all
other questions. He desired not to defeat their enemies,
but to convert their opponents. And therefore he supported
the bill, because, while it made converts, it, would disarm
suspicion and dispel false alarms. (Hear, hear.)
Sir JOHN PAKINGTON said the progress of the de-
bate up to the present time on this question hau been most
curious and instructive. They were considering one of the
most important subjects that could possibly be submitted
for their consideration by her Majesty's Ministers. They
were now in the second night of the debate, and up to the
present moment he had waited to hear some member of her
Majesty's Government speak in favour of the bill. The hon.
member for Huddersfield, in speaking of the measure, said
it was only to be" a step in the right direction." (Hear,
hear.) He was followed by an hon. member who com-
plained that the bill did not contain any provision for the
ballot, and all the speakers in support of the measure urged
the necessity for a still larger measure. (Hear, hear.) The
hon. member for Birmingham addressed the house, and he
held precisely the same language. That hon. gentleman,
who thought himself a sort of English O'Connell, gave his
support to the Government, and said he was'inclined to
tolerate the bill in consideration of the position in
which the Government was placed, and that he was
content to obtain his object step by step. (Hear, hear.)
Now, he would remind the hon. member of what was said
by him in a building well known in Manchester as Watts'
Building—a building which, no doubt, was one of the
attractive sights of England. He (Sir J. Pakington)
had seen that building, and in thee place the hon.
member, after addressing a large body of working men,
who were assembled to hear him, was addressed by them
in the language of complaint and dissatisfaction that the
measure did not contain that " lodger franchise" which
was proposed in the bill of the late Government last year.
(Hear, hear.) The hon. member made a speech of very
considerable ability—(hear, hear)—but the hon. gentleman
told them, just as every one .else had told them on his
side of the house, that he could only regard the measure as
a step in the right direction. But his (Sir J. Pakington's)
opinion was that it was a miserable bill—(hear, hear)—and
he could only suppose the Government proposed such a
bill as the result of some compromise between a divided
Cabinet, or a compromise under the political influence of
foreign affairs. But his belief was that the bill was most
contemptible, because it was impotent for good and power-
ful for harm. (Hear, hear.) He was sorry the noble lord
the member for the city of London had thrown away the
opportunity which he had. The noble lord had, during
the last thirty years, had an opportunity of watching the
measure of which he was the introducer, although perhaps
not the author; and he (Sir John Pakington) hoped that
the noble lord would have now dealt with the question
in a large statesmanlike way, and not produced a mea-
sure abounding with so many faults. He (Sir John
Pakington) entirely agreed with the hon., gentleman
who had just spoken, that the bill- only-contained one
proposal, and that they ought to discuss it. He agreed
with him that the extent of the franchise which it con-
tained differed so little from that which was proposed by
the late Government, that it was not worth while to dis-
pute over it. But the proposal of the late Government
was founded on principle, and he believed the proposal
of the present Government was destitute of principle.
(Hear, hear.) He - believed the bill contained only one
principle, and that that principle was an intention to
overwhelm the property and influence of the country by
numbers (hear, hear), and he further believed that a more
objectionable bill than it was in that respect, it was impos-
sible to imagine. (Hear, hear.) He now begged to call the
attention of the house to, the returns of the boroughs and
towns, on which the noble lord seemed to have framed that
part of his measure ; and if they were to trust to those re-
turns to convey to them what might be the effects of the
bill, he believed they were altogether delusive. (Hear, hear.)
The noble lord in his opening statement, evidently trusted
to the numbers in his columns as the basis in his calcula-
tion, and the hon. member for Birmingham also did se.
Now he (Sir 'John Pakington) believed that those returns,
especially as related to the larger boroughs and great manu-
facturing places, were most erroneous. The limn would
observe that the number of voters in those boroughs were
much smaller than the number of £lO houses, and it was
alleged that many were disfranchised on account of the
non-payment of taxes. Now that was an anomaly ; but it
was, he thought, easily explained by supposing that the
rating of numbers of those houses had been increased, in
order to increase the number of voters on the register. There
was in no, less than 44 of those boroughs a considerably
smaller number of voters than of £lO houses. In the borough
of Pontefract, for instan'e, there were '689 £lO houses, and
only 411 voters. In Newark there were 763 £lO houses,
and only 551 voters, and in Midhurst there were 429 £lO
houses, and only 224 voters. He believed he could satisfy
the house that those returns were not, as given in the
figures, to be depended up= 'as correct, and that they
were wholly inaccurate as to the number of voters who
ought to be placed upon the register. He believed that
those cases eyould not amount to less than 25 per cent. of
the whole amount of houses, and it was upon those grounds
that the noble lord was going to lower the franchise to a
£6 rental. But the fact was they were going to add a very
considerable number to the electors of the country—a num-
ber that would have an overwhelming influence over the
property of the country. (Hear.) He believed the number
of voters would be very considerably greater than the noble
lord contemplated—(heer,- hear)—and he believed that that
would apply to every one of the boroughs. Having made
that explanation to the house, let him now ask her Majesty's
Government was it wise and prudent to create that dissatis-
faction and discontent in the minds of the middle and the
upper classes of society which this measure could not fail
tp cause—(hear, hear)—and it must, in his opinion, appear
to any man plain that if the'house pass this bill as it now
stood, it could. not fail• to have a most injurious effect.
(Hear, hear.) Let him advert to the language of the pre-
sent Lord Grey, as expressed in a very able published
pamphlet on the subject of Reform. That noble lord said
he wasipersuaded that the present measure was founded
upon wrong and unsound principles. Ho believed it would
not be denied that those words of Lord Grey were prophetic.
He (Sir John Pakington) was very much struck with that
example. Let him now give them a warning. Let him re-
mind them of the warning of De Tocqueville in his writings
on the United States. What did De Tocqueville tell them ?
Did he not say that the most eminent men—men of talent
and of virtue—were compelled to withdraw from taking
any part in public affairs, or in elections in America, be-
,cause of the overwhelming influence of the large masses
who were admitted to the exercise of the suffrage under
the American numerical system ; and in another-passage,
De Tocqueville, speaking of the democratic Govern..
meat, as he saw it in operation, in America, that in
their extreme liberty there was but
and again,
protection
says,teetin
to be found against tyranny ; an
" There is no country in which there is less of liberty
of speech than in America." (Hear, hear.) He (Sir John
Pakington) therefore trusted that the house and her
Majesty's Government would take warning by those state-
ments. (Hear.) Let him now draw the attention of the
house to a fact. Was it not the fact that there were not a
few places in England where, in consequence of the high
rents, the property and rank were now thrown into the
hands of one class? (Hear.) And here he begged, with

permission of the house, to refer to another contribution on
this subject—namely, by tho hon. member for Radnor (Sir

J. Walsh). It was a passage which, in his opinion, was
well worthy the attention of the house. That hon. member,

detailing a conversation which he• had had with two per-
sons of influence and position in society, said that they had
informed him that, in consequence of the manner in which
the elections in their districts were now carried on, and the

inkuence which was exercised by a low class of voters, in
their numbers, over men in station, they had determined to

Withdraw from taking any part in those elections, and the

Sir G. GREY said this was one of the most singular de.
bates he had ever heard. When his noble friend (Lord J.
Russell) introduced the bill, he entered fully into its prin-
ciples, but no 'sooner had he moved the second reading than
up rose the right hon. gentleman the member for Bucking-
hamshire and announced that it was not his intention to
offer any opposition to the second reading of the bill, and
he expressed a doubt as to whether it would be his duty to
propose any amendment. Notwithstanding this he used
hard language of the bill. lie said it was a bad bill, and
uncalled for. The right hon. gentleman who had just sat
down said it was a contemptible bill, a miserable and a
meagre bill, and yet those right hon, gentlemen thought it
consistent with the principles they professed to abstain from
all opposition to the second reading. This course was pru-
dent and expedient on their part, for if they brought their
opinions to the test of a division, an immense majority
against them would have exposed their weakness. (Hear,
hear.) Though
" Willing to wound, bat yet afraid to strike."
The real reason for their conduct was that they would not

have dared themselves 'to propose a measure that contained
a less change. (Hear, hear.) If the Government had
gone much further in the way of diSfranchisement and
re-distribution, they might have gained popularity, but
they would not have submitted a measure that would lead
to a satisfactory and safe settlement of this question. The
right hon. gentleman (Sir J.' Pakington) said there was but
one principle in the bill, and that was the overwhelming of
property and intelligence bythe mere force of numbers, and
he quoted with apparent triumph the speech of the hon.
member for Birmingham, to show that no predominance
should be given to any class. Ile (Sir J. Pakington) then
suggested that the bill should be referred to a judicial com-
mittee of the Privy Council (a suggestion first via& by a

Conservative interest was altogether swamped by those
parties. (Hear.) Lord Grey had strongly observed that
there was a deterioration in the character. of public men in
the House of Commons to such an extent, that moticns
ware often carried against the decided opinion of those who
voted them, and who did not scruple to express their re-
gret at finding themselves in a majority. Now, if rumour
spoke true, a confirmation of that opinion of Lord Grey was
to be found in the circumstances of the present moment ;
and when the right hon. gentleman the member fur Rad-

IRE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, MARCH 23, 1860.

noble friend); and observed that when the measure came
from their hands it would pass without opposition. He (Sir
G. Grey) believed that to be one of the most Utopian ideas
The right hon. gentleman said that if the committee were
appointed by different sides of the house their bill would be
a paragon of perfection, and would be passed at once by the
house. Was it not singular that this bright idea had not
struck him last year, before the bill of Lord Derby's Go-
vernment had been introduced ? (Hear.) Had he adopted
that suggestion it might have saved his party from the dis-
cemfiture they experienced last session. (Hear.) On the
other hand, the righthon. gentleman the member for Buck-
inghamshire fairly admitted that the bill contained three
principles, viz., the extension of the franchise in boroughs,
the extension of the franchise in counties, and the redis-
tribution of seats. He objected to the simplicity of the bill,
and said a great deal about "fancy franchises," a phrase
used four years ago, and therefore in use before his bill
came before Parliament. The term was not used as one of
reproach, but as descriptive of franchises previously un-
known to the constitution. On full consideration of the
matter the Government thought it better to adhere to the
principle of representation already in existence, and to ex-
tend it so as to bring within the pale of the constitution a
large number of electors at present excluded. The Govern-
ment thought they might accomplish this object in a more
direct way, and therefore they did not think it their duty to
adopt those fancy franchises. With regard to polling places,
which had been alluded to, he thought furtherprovision might
be made in that respect, but that was matter of detail. But
the most important provision of the bill was the extension
of the borough franchise, and it was to that the right hon.
gentlemen (Sir J. Pakington) ehiqy addressed himself.
He (Sir G. Grey) would remind the right hon. gentleman
that the late Government, of which he was a member,
adopted in their bill the very principle which he now con-
demned. (Hear, hear.) It was quite true they stood by the
£lO household qualification, and insisted that it should not
be lowered ; but the House of Commons decided that they
would not adopt any bill in which that qualification was
not lowered. When the address to tho Crown was moved,
the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Disraeli), wishing to obtain
the confidence of the house, confessed his error, and pro-
mised to amend the bill in committee ; but from the speeches
made on the bill now before the house, he (Sir G. Grey)
was bound to assume that hon. gentlemen opposite had a
great distrust in the working classes. (Hear, hear.) The
right hon. gentleman the member for Buckinghamshire
said in introducing his measure last year that it was
the opinion of Parliament and the country that there should
be a large extension of the suffrage to the working classes,
an4l observed that he had no prejudice against that opinion.
" All that we want," said he, "is that any measure we
bring forward shall be entitled to public approbation. We
are willing to ensure the introduction of a' large number of
the working classes by lowering. the borough franchise."
He (Sir G. Grey) understood from that declaration, that the
Government of Lord Derby were prepared to lower the
franchise. The present Government had .acted upon that
prinsiple, and yet they were told that it was dangenjus and
mischievous. The Government had not shrunk from pro-
posing an extension of the franchise to a considerable
amount, because t hey feit that no bill would produce a per-
manent and stable—he did not mean an everlasting—set-
tlement of the question that did not extend the suffrage to
a large number of the working classes. Was no account to
be taken of the increased and increasing intelligence of the
working classes ? The late Mr. Robert Stephenson, when
called upon at a public meeting to do honour to Sir William
Armstrong, in referring to the struggles of his own
father, observed that this difficulty was not in overcoming
matter, but in directing mind. The working men of his days
bad not sufficient intelligence to compreheml, his ideas. This
wa, not the case at present. Sir William Armstrong found
no difficulty in obtaining workmen to make his gun. This
was owing to the increased intelligence of the working men.
Were these the men whose numbers were to overpower the
electoral body ? He (Sir G. Grey) anticipated no danger
from the admission of such men within the pale of the con-
stitution He did not think the proposed lowering of the
borough franchise would create an essential change in the
character of our constituencies. The right hon. gentleman
(Sir J. Pakington) had impugned the accuracy of returns
laid before the house as to the number of £lO electors. Al-
though he (Sir G. Grey) would not vouch for their exact
accuracy, still he believed they were prepared with great
care, and might be relied upon as an approximate estimate of
the numbers that would be added to the electoral roll by
the bill before the house. It was his belief that any bill
which did not contain the principle of extending the suffrage
to the working classes would fail to command the support of
more than a trilling minority in that house. He defended;
against the objections raised by the right hon. gentlemen
the members for Droitwich and Buckinghamshire, the ad-
dition to the £lO qualification in counties of the payment of
poor rate, and he justified the distribution of seats in the
manner proposed by the Government. The right hon.
gentleman the member for Droitwich expressed his regret
that the extension of the borough franchise had been based
on rental instead of rating. No doubt, if the rating were
the actual value of the property, then that would be the more
preferable basis, but while the rating was rude and unequal,
they could not in justice or fairness adopt it, and to wait
till the hilt for improving the valuation introduced by the
Home Secretary became law, would be to delay the progress
of the Reform Bill to another session. Never was there
a period more desirable or opportune for taking into calm
and dispassionate consideration the question of Reform,
for the country was happy, tranquil, and prosperous.
He hoped the bill would receive that consideration which
it deserved; and if it met, as he had every confidence it
would, the sanction of Parliament, he, believed that it
would afford satisfaction and contentment to a large portion
of the intelligence of the country hitherto without the pri-
vilege of the franchise, and that it would tend to the
strength and stability of our institutions. (Hear.)
Mr. ADDERLEY said the right hon. gentleman who
last addressed the house seemed to forget that a bill might
be right in principle, and yet mischievous by the manner in
which that principle was applied ; and he quite overlooked
those details which made the Reform Bill introduced last
year by his right hon. friend the member for Bu
hamshire a safe and Conservative measure. lt was the
wholesale absence of those details which rendered the bill
of the Government a mischievous and dangerous measure.
He felt the greatest commiseration for the Government by
whom such a bill was introduced, and he attributed its au-
thorship to the hon. member for Birmingham.
[There were only 24 members present when Mr. Adder-
ley had proceeded thus far with his statement, and an hon.
member moved that the house be counted. During the
period that elapsed between the motion and the count about
20 members, Lord J. Russell among the number, rushed
in from the dining room, and the "house " was thus made.
When the Speaker counted "40," those who assisted to
make the house immediately took their departure.]
Mr. ADDERLEY resumed, and said that what had
just occurred indicated what was the state of the feeling
of that house on the subject under their consideration.
(Opposition cheers.) A similar display, he understood,
took place in the house, but with more success, on the last
evening that the subject was intended to be brought before
it. Ho (Mr. Adderley) was favourable to an extension of
the franchise, but he cautioned the house that they were
making a most hazardous experiment in reducing the
borough franchise from £lO to B. (Hear, hear.) As they
were agreed upon the second reading of this bill, he yet
hoped in committee they would make such arrangements
as would provide against any serious innovation on the
-present system of the representation of the people. He
especially objected to that provision of the bill by which it
was proposed to accumulate members in connection with
populous places, instead of scattering those members over
the country. (Hear.) The principle of the Constitution was,
that every portion of the country and every class should be
represented, and therefore he objected to accumulating mem-
bers in populous districts. He hoped the bill would be care-
fully considered in committee.
Mr. MASSEY said the state of the house was not sucheis
to encourage discussion, but notwithstanding the apathy
which prey tiled, the bill was of some iseportance, and would
be attended with great results. (Hear.) He trusted this
measure would settle the question of Reform for a consider-
able number of years. When he entered Parliament ho
found this measure of a revision of the Reform Bill was a
public and an agitated question, and therefore he was
obliged, however reluctantly, to form some opinion upon it.
There might be some question as to details, but there was
none to the principle of this bill. The first objection to the
last Reform Bill was, that the franchise was not sufficiently
extended to the enlightened and intelligent classes, and
another objection was, that representation did not bear a
fair proportion to the population in many places. However,
in a community like ours• there must be some anomalies,'
and they could not, in any case, arrive at perfection. It was
said that the great commercial centres of industry were not
adequately represented. But had they suffered from that
fact ? Had not the entire course of legislation during late
years been in their favour ? Then if that was so, where was
the practical necessity for, reform of Parliament so far as
they were concerned ? (Hear, hear.) Well, then, why was
this question now to take precedence of all other questions
of immediate exigency ? It was simply because it was a
vexed and an irritated question; 'and although the prac-
tical necessity, for reforming Parliament was not very
urgent, he was prepared to settle it this session. There
,were certai4 anomalies to be removed, and desirable amend-
ments to make. There were also theoretical objections to
be redressed. There were little boroughs sending two
members to that house, and there were, on the other hand

large hives of industry who had but the same voice in that
house. These inconsistencies should bo redressed, but if
that was to bo done, the measure should be well considered,
and not conceived in a lassitude indicative of a desiro to
satisfy a promise hastily made. The measure of disfran-
chisement was well conceived, and, from his acquaintance
with the working classes, ho did not apprehend any danger
from the new constituencies that were to be called into ex-
istence. They might occasionally be misled, but there was
no fear to the property of the country, which appeared to
be the danger apprehended by the Conservative party. As
far as the franchise went the bill was ample. But would
the bill settle the question ? (Hear, hear.) That was the
point. (Hear, hear.) The object of the noble lord was to.
redress anomalies, but he really thought that the bill created
greater anomalies than it removed. Looking at one of the
great objects of the Refqm_movement, which was the re-
distribution of seats, he thought the bill a failure. It doubled
the great constituencies. The extension of the franchise
was greater than in the bill of 1832. The new electors
under this bill would be numerically superior to all the
others, and they could return their own members in the
great seats of commerce and industry. The measure was
most extensive and fearless in that direction, and if it had
been accompanied with an extensive measure of disfran-
chisement he would have said it was consistent. But
if they were to consider this bill as a settlement of the
Reform question, it must, besides extending the fran-
chise wisely, be accompanied by a corresponding re-dis-
tribution of seats. But there was the defect of this mea-
sure. He could not understand how any English gen- I
tleman who based his desire for Reform upon a
re-distribution of seats could be satisfied with this measure..
Indeed, the hon. member for Birmingham admitted he
was not satisfied on that point. The noble lord drew a
line, and said all places below five thousand returning two
members shall henceforth return but one member to Par-
liament. That gave him just 25 seat.; for distribution. Did
the noble lord suppose that would satisfy the advocates for
re-distribution? (Hear.) Why, he must be sanguine in
deed if Ye thought that could by any possibility settle the
question. (Hear.) Ho now came to the constituency which
he had the honour to represent, the borough of Salford,
which was the largest borough in England represented by
a single member. He was not coming to the house to sue
in forma pauperis for a second member, but ho was only
bringing forward this as an illustration. If they were to
bring in a Reform Bill not demanded by any, practical grie-
vanco, but introduced to adjust and scale theoretical and

speculative anomalies, let them have a measure which would
effect their object. Salford had 100,000 inhabitants and
4;5130-electors. Its claim to a second member had been al-
ready recognised by the-noble lord in his bill of 1854, and
another member was awarded. It was now to be left in its
existing state. It had now 4,500 electors, and would have
10,500 under this bill, and could he be expected to go down
to such a place—teeming with population, full of energy
and enterprise, commercial power and wealth, and increas-
ing beyond any borough in Lancashire in its commercial
prosperity—could he be expected to go down to such a place
with this bill in his hand, and say, " This is the measure
which is to settle the reform question for you." (Hear and
latfghter.) He laid no claim to being what was called an
" advanced Reformer." (Laughter.). He was a moderate
man. He liked to keep pace with the necessities of the
age; but, considering the momentous results of these orga-
nic changes, he preferred rather to progress gradually than
to make these hazardous plunges in the dark. (Hear,
hear.) The noble lord might say that this bill was but a
compromise, and that all our measures now were com-
promises ; but what would his constituents say when they
found that small market towns were left with their full
complement of members, and the claims of this great
borough of Salford, occupying a position almost unique in
its character, were ignored? The borough of Salford, in
three years, had added to the register a number nearly
equal to the united constituencies of Cockermoul 11, Buck-
ingham, Tavistock, and Wycombe. (Hear.) Yet these
were spared in their integrity by this bill. (Hear.) There
were points in the measure which it was impossible far him
to defend. Ho must look at the question as a man of busi-
nesS. If the noble lord had adhered to his former measure
and excluded the consideration of the re-distribution of
seats, it would have been a prudent measure • but the noble
lord had not chosen to do that, which had placed him (Mr.
Massey) under the very disagreeable necessity of going down
to his constituents and becoming an agitator for another
Reform Bill. (Hear.) That was a position which he could
only accept with great reluctance. These were solemn and
serious questions which ought not to be inconsiderately
opened. We were not, like our opposite neighbours, one
day under a republic, the next under a mongrel monarchy,
and after that a despotism. (Hear.) We lived under a
constitution which had lasted 800 years and he touched
that venerable fabric with diffidence and reluctance. If,
however, he were asked, after thirty years, to take part in
amending the measure which was then a great measure, he
would say, let the proposals be consistent with that mea-
sure, and carried out in the same spirit, and then he would
help them to amend it. In the noble lord's former bills he
attempted to provide for the representation of minorities;
but he was very glad that he had now abandoned that idea.
The English people understood a fight and a victory, but
they knew nothing of the representation of minorities.
The measure of the noble lord had been praised for its
simplicity. (Hear.) It was simple even to rudeness.
(Laughter.) He thought simplicity might be carried too
far. (Laughter.) It was easy to devise simple modes of
escaping from our serious difficulties ; but he did not think
such rude modes as these of cutting the Gordian knot
would entitle persons to be regarded as great statesmen,
or to claim credit for having conquered difficulties. The
groat evil was, that they took these enormous areas and
flooded them with a great number of voters, and thus they
created monster constituencies. Now, all who were ac-
quainted with the working of our representative system in
this country would bear him out in saying that in proportion
as-they increased the number of voters beyond a certain
limit, they diminished the value which each voter attached
to the franchise. He found himself a unit in the midst of
a vast mob, and did not attach a proper importance to his
vote. With these huge constituencies it was impossible
that a member could make himself ac quainted with them.
People returned a member whom they knew little or nothing
about. His nomination often fell into the hands of some
self-constituted "association" or "club," and they elected
themselves into a sort of electoral college, found the candi-
date, prescribed his political creed, corresponded' with him
on public-subjects, and became a species of middlemen be-
tween the member and his constituents. (Hear, hear.) This
was one of the most pernicious features of our electoral
system, and it was of the utmost importance that such a
state of things should be put an end to. (Hear, hear.) In
great boroughs they would find one district Conservative
and another district Liberal; there was just as much differ-
ence often between two parts of the same borough as there
were between two different boroughs. (Hear.) He thought
that they ought to adopt the principle of the Reform Act of
1832, and as they divided the large counties, so they ought
to divide these monster borough constituencies. If this were
done no one need fear the flooding of these vast electoral
areas with a number of new voters, fur they would find in
division a compensating circumstance. (Hear.) He thought
it a great disadvantage to members to be sent to that house
who did not know their constituents. (Hear, hear.) Yet
this must be the case while the electoral districts were so
enormous. (Hear.) He was averse to novelty in such mat-
ters, but this was not a novel principle, seeing that it was
recognised in the act of 1832. This division would interest
the voter in the franchise, it would familiarise the candi-
date with his constituents, and it would avoid the middle-
men to whom he had referred. He would be glad if some
hon. gentleman would take up these ideas and develope
them. They were not his ideas, but were the matured
opinions of the member for Rochdale. ,;(Hear, hear, and
cheers.) As the servant of the house, it would be his (Mr.
Massey's) duty to sit in the chair when the details of this
measure were being discussed (hear, hear), and in that posi-
tion it would not be decent in him to urge upon the house
those matters of detail. (Hear, hear.) He hoped some hon.
gentleman, therefore, would consider the suggestions he
had made, and would throw them into shape. (Hear, hear.)
There wore also certain additions to the franchise which
might be usefully introduced into the bill. He did not ap-
prove of ." fancy franchises," but he could not regard the
" lodger franchise" as being " fancy" or sentimental. It
was anomalous to give to the occupier of a house a vote
which was denied to his lodgers, from whom his sole income
was perhaps derived. He believed that from a lodger fran-
chise they would get a valuable addition to the constituency
if they did not carry it too low. The measure, as it now
stood, was bald, naked, and repulsive. It was a dreary,
monotonous desert, which would be agreeably varied by a
lodger franchise (hear, hear)—by an educational franchise
of some sort. (Hear, hear.) He hoped that the noble
lord would condescend to consider the suggestions which
had been made, and which might be thrown out during the
course of the debate, and that he would revise his bill
accordingly; and that, if not, he would lend a willing ear
in committee to those suggestions, the object of which was
to improve the bill which he had introduced—to make it
worthy of his distinguished name, and a becoming settle-
ment to that great measure of 1832 which regenerated the
constitution of this country, and which conferred upon the
people the blessings of good government and of enlightened
laws. (Cheers.)
N-r. STEUART believed if this bill passed it would have
the effect-of placing the right hon. gentleman th.e Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer in the position of a democratic leader
—a position in which he would be backed by the hon.
member for Birmingham (Mr. Bright) ; and bearing in
mind how very versatile the right honourable gentleman
was, and how frequently and easily ho had changed his
opinions, he should not be at all surprised to see him, per-
haps at no distant time, in that position. (Laughter.)
Mr. C ROSSLEY did not think there was any ground for
apprehension, because the bill would extend the franchise
to a large number of the working classes. Were they afraid
of the working classes ? (Nc.) Certainly not. The right
hon. baronet the member for Droitwich had that evening
called the bill a miserable bill; and another right hon. gen-
tleman of his party had designated it as a pitiful Budget
Bill. Now, in his opinion, it was a bill which contained
much that was worthy of adoption by the house. Looking
at the various interests of the country, its shipping, its
farming, and, above all, its manufactures, they saw great

compact masses. Ho denied, too, that they were slaves in
the sense which had been implied in the assertion. The
hon. member for Birmingham did not like county constitu-
encies, because there was a strong Conservative feeling
among the yeomanry, who sent him (Mr. K. Soymer) and
other hon. gentlemen like him, to oppose the hon. member,
and to tell him that, with all his ability and honesty of
purpose, he was a dangerous politician. That was why the
hon. gentlemen did not like the county constituencies.
The hon. gentleman said, "Why are you afraid to trust
the people ?"- The hon. gentleman evidently trusted
them, and trusted their ignorance, too, or else he would
surely not venture to repeat in an assembly of educated
men the language he had sometimes held out of
doors, when he infsrmed his hearers that the landed gentry
of the country kept up large armaments because they de-
sired to make them- the means- of providing their brothers
and sons with- emolument. Why, the fact was that they
paid much more as their share of income-tax than the
scanty pay doled out to those who received it. Now, one
reason why he and others were alarmed at this bill was,
that the class of men who were to be admitted to an exer-
cise of the franchise would be very likely, after having been
thus excited against them and made to believe that they
had been robbed in the taxation that had fallen upon them,
to turn round upon their supposed oppressors and adopt
measures which they (the gentry) would consider unjust.
He contended that the expense of representation lay, after
all, not in nutnbers or in wealth, but in the character of the
members themselves. The Government had ,a majority in
the house, but he still had such confidence in its good sense
that he did not doubt that in the further course of the dis-
cussion on the subject they might be enabled to make the
bill what it was not now, a bill for the better representation
of the people.
Mr. E. BAINES said, though he was about to support
the measure of the Government, he hoped that in doing so
he should not subject himself to the taunt just uttered
against the hen. member for the West Riding (Mr. Cross-
ley), namely, that he was influenced in favour of the bill by
the fact that an additional vote was given to the place which
he represented. It was true that an ad .itional member was
given to Leeds—(Opposition laughter)—but it was well
known to many members of that house that he had for
years entertained the opinions which he had risen to ex-
press. For years he had believed that it would be safe,
wise, and right to lower the borough franchise to £5.
That was the great distinguishing feature of the bill before
the house, and he hoped that the figures ho was about to
give by way of illustration, with regard to Leeds, would
tend to dispel the alarm which was felt on the other side
with regard to the probable effect of the measure. He
would, however, 'first notice the objection of the right
honourable gentleman the member for Bucks, that
in this bill there was no principle ; that though the franchise
was brought down from £lO to £6, there was nothing to
indicate the fitness of the voter. There was the same prin-
ciple involved in a £6 as in a £lO franchise, or in 40s. free-
holds, and the objection of the right hon. gentleman ap-
plied just as much to the existing system as to that which
was about to be established. £6 was a very much higher
rental than that of most of the houses occupied by the work-
ing classes, and as the occupation of a house with such a
rental indicated sobriety, industry, good morals, and good
habits, it included, in his opinion, those moral and social
qualifications, which the right hon. gentleman summed up
in the one word " fitness." The " fancy franchises" of the
right hon. gentleman were objested to, he believed, chiefly
because they were proposed as a substitute for the extension
of the franchise to the working classes. Indeed, the right
hon. baronet the member for Hertford (Sir E. B. Lytton)
advocated the bill of the late Government expressly on the
ground that it kept the representation in the hands of the
middle classes. Another objection, however, to the present
bill was that it enfranchised a great number of persons who,
being a vast homogeneous mass, would exercise a prepon-
derating influence in the borough constituencies to which
they belostged. Now, he was convinced that that was a
great mistake. At present the borough constituencies num-
bered 400,000; only 200,000 at the utmost would be added
by the bill; and how could the 200,000 exercise a prepon-
derating influence over the 400,000 ? He had taken some
pains to ascertain what effect the bill was likely to produce
in that respect in the borough which he represented. At
present the constituency was 61000, by the bill 4,000 would
be added, making a total of 10,000. The treasurer of the
council of Leeds, who had to do with the collection of rates
and other business' of the same kind all his life had collected
statistics with regard to the new elections, being assisted in so
doing by an experienced ratepayer. After stating that the
total number of new electors would be 4,000 persons, they
estimated the number of those who were strictly operatives
at 2,500, who were among the most iitelligent and best-
skilled working men of their class. Three schedules relating
to these persons were furnished. The first included those
who occupied houses of from £6 to £7. The trades to which
the persons included in it belonged indicated that there
would be extreme difficulty in their organisation for any
political purpose. There were cloth dressers, dyers, and
mechanics of various kinds; masons, bricklayers, plasterers,
and joiners. The second schedule included persons who
paid from £7 to £3, and there were to be found cloth
pressers, warehousemen, iron and brass moulders, brush-
makers, wood-turners, carriers, and leather-dressers, and
so on. In the third schedule, which comprised houses of
from £8 to £lO, were retail shopkeepers of all kinds, book-
keepers and assistant clerks, and printers. These facts
would, he hoped, satisfy those who thought that the new
electors were such a homogeneous class that they might be
combined for any political purpose., The whole number of
electors under this bill, including both the old and the new
voters, was estimated at only 607,000. The population of
the boroughs, which in the year 1851 amounted to 7,432,000,
at the present day must amount to about 9,000,000. The
adult males would be about one fourth of the whole number,
that was to say, 2,225,000, so that the voters could only be
about one fourth of the adult male population. The popu-
lation of the upper and middle classes was about one-fourth
of the whole, and the lower classes about three-fourths, and
inasmuch as the whole number of electors was little more
than a fourth of the whole adult population, he believed the
hen. member for Birmingham was far wrong when he said
that only about 100,000 of the voters in boroughs would be-
long to the working class. He thought the number might be
150,000, and assuming the maximum nurnber,what was there
to alarm them so greatly that the working classes, who were
three-fourths of the population, should torm one-fourth of
the number of electors ? Allow him to ask what proportion
of the working classes they thought it right and just, and
reasonable and safe, should have the franchise. Because if
150,000 of them were admitted to it, look at the enormous
number who were excluded, They did not bring in more
than about one in ten. In many boroughs they brought in
oae in five, but in many others not more than one in ten.
He believed that those occupying houses of the value of be-
tween £6 and £lO, who would novi be admitted to the fran-
chise for the first time, represented an amount of moral and
intellectual fitness so great for the exercise of the franchise,
that it could not with safety be withheld from them. The
noble lord who introduced this bill first appeared as a Par-
liamentary Reformer in 1820, when he proposed to take the
f anchise from Grantham and confer it upon Leeds, and it
was then said in that house that, the leading banker of
Leeds had written to say that if the franchise were given to
the £lO householders of Leeds he should be obliged to shut
up his bank. Contrast the social condition of that borough
in the present day with what it was in 1820. Her Majesty
went down t 9 honour the town of Leeds by opening the
Town-hall about a year and a half ago, and on that occa •
sion she passed in her carriage along many miles of streets,
through half a million of people, without one syllable of
rudeness being uttered, and amid the heartiest expressions
of loyalty. 'He beliNed in the loyalty of the working classes,
and that there was amongst them a conservative feeling of
the best kind, and he believed that if they wanted to make
them conservative in the best manner they would accom-
plish the object by admitting them to the privileges of the
constitution. He wished to call the attention of those who
took an interest in the social condition of the community
to a few facts with regard to the borough of Leeds. First,
with regard to savings banks, there were 12,873 open
accounts, . and £338,000 invested. Of the West Riding
penny savings bank, there were eleven branches in
the borough, which were receiving at the rate of £BO
a week, and there wore numerous savings banks connected
with Sunday schools, mechanics' institutions, and other
institutions of the town. The friendly societies com-
prised 22,543 members ; the benefit building societies 7,581
members ; and he might mention the remarkable fact that
they had invested a sum of no less than £900,000. The me-
chanics' institutions, and similar institutions, were no less
than 26 in number, and their members amounted to 5,556.
There were 133 Sunday schools, taught by 5,274 teachers,
and comprising 35,000. scholars. There were 371 day schools
—that was in the year 1801—of which 76 were public and
295 were private, and they included 21,831 scholars. There
was a town mission employing 16 agents; the Temper-
ance Society numbered 3,000 persons, and there were two
co-operative flour mills, one of which had 3,200 members,
shareholders, and they had a capital of £11,795. There was
one point more, showing the amount of intelligence which
existed in the town; and here he would institute a compa-
rison as well as he could between the year 1820 and the year
1860. He had endeavoured to ascertain what was the num-
ber of newspapers circulated in Leeds daily and weekly in
those two periels. He believed that in 1820 the number of
daily papers circulated in Leeds did not exceed 1,000, the
number now was 3,800. In 1820 the number of weekly
papers was not more than 3,000, the number now was 17,300.
The number of literary, scientific, and religious weekly
periodicals sold in Leeds at a former period he was certain,
at a liberal estimate, did not exceed 500. The number now
was 21,742 per week. Then, of monthly publications he
would assume that at the former period there were 500 cir-
culated, which was a liberal estimate, whereas the number
now sold in Leeds was 12,603. Those facts, which indicated
so great an amount of social progress in Leeds, were only a
sample of what had taken place in other boroughs. The
general educational statistics he would not allude to furtive,
than to say that between 1818 and 1851 the day schools in -
creased 218 per cent., while the population increased only
54 per cent. That was surely an indication of that great
social progress which was the greatest justification of, nay
had rendered necessary, the bill of the noble lord. It would
be unsafe for Parliament to shut out men who had such
intelligence and such laudable habits as he had proved the
people of our large boroughs possessed. He believed there
was truth in the statement that the elite of the working
classes were more independent than those who were
higher in the social scale. He admitted that there was
much to regret among them. Out of 50,000 adult males
they were still only giving the franchise to 10,000 in the
borough of Leeds. Forty thousand were still left out of the
pale of the constitution.. If they did not extend the franchise

social progress ; and was it not, therefore, desirable that
they should move with the times, and extend the franchise ?
He had given notice that every male adult who raid 40s. a
year in direct taxes ought to have a vote. (Hear; hear.)
And here he should read a letter which he received from
one of his constituents. The hon. gentleman here read the
letter, which described his correspondent as a clerk in a re-
spectable establishment, paying £lO a year rent and all
taxes,land yet he had no vote. He (Mr. Crossley) thought
it would be well if the noble lord had introduced a clause in
his bill, to extend the franchise to lodgers. (Hear, hear.)
Then, again, there was a fault in the bill which ought to be
amended—namely, that clause which said that the voter
must pay his assessed taxes by a particular day. He hap-
pened to visit America, and althoagh he did not like or ap-
prove of all their institutions, he must yet say that he saw
much there to approve of and that recommended itself to him.
In New York, for instance, ho did not during his residence
there see a single beggar in the streets, and he did not think
there was that danger to the States which some hon. mem-
bers apprehended rom the vast numbers who were there
entrusted with thefranchise. Then, as to the working classes
of this country, he had much intercourse with then), and
he had every reason to-speak in the highest terms of their
merits and their worth. In sickness and in distress, there
were no better friends, no better neighbours. (Hear, hear.)
Why, then, should they not be entrusted with the fran-
chise ? They said, "We only want a fair share of the suf-
frage—we don't want any overwhelming influence—we
don't want a monopoly—all we want is to have a voice in
the representation of thepeople, and in those matters which
concern the great in4erests of the country." (Hear, hear.)
For those reasons, then, he should give his vote for the se-
cond reading of the bill, calculated as it was to give the
working classes a share in the elective franchise. (Hear.)
Mr. KER SE YMER said that hon. gentlemen above
and below the gangway on the opposite side of the house
who had spoken, expressed themselves favourable to a £0
franchise, and among them was the hon. gentleman who
had spoken last. That hon. gentleman spoke of the'rnea-
sure even more favourably than any of the hon. members
who preceded him. Now, seeing that the hon. gentleman
was connected with the West Riding of Yorkshire, and that

the West Riding, by the provision of the bill, would, if the
measure passed, have four members in future, the hon. gen-
tleman seemed greatly pleased with the bill ; but as far as
he could understand the meaning of the hon. gentleman, it
was that we travelled very fast by sea and land, and there-
- fore we should have a very large Reform Bill. (Laughter.)
But thoughtful men, both on that and the other side of the
house, and thoughtful men, also, out of the house, viewed
the bill with very great alarm—(hear, hear)—and the house
would remember that the bill of 1832 was also viewed with
very great alarm. That bill effected great changes in the
actual constitution of the House of Commons. An hon.
member used the argument that because the bill of 1832
did not do harm, therefore another Reform Bill would
not do harm. Now, he thought that argument was
a very unfair one. (Hear, hear.) It had been said
out of doors that this bill, in giving votes to the work-
ing-classes, would but expose them to the influences
of corrupt practices at elections. Now, ho would never give
to the working-classes a vote with one hand, and, on the
other, expose them with their votes to the influences of cor•
rupt practices at elections. The hon. member for Birming-
ham said the other day, alluding to this bill, that it would
unsettle the whole question. Now, what did the noble lord
himself think of that ?
Mr. BRIGHT—I did not say any such thing. I said, so
far as the disfranchisement of seats it did not settle the
question. I did not say as so related to the franchise.
Mr. KER SEYMER could not quite understand the
hen. member for Birmingham. He would; however, read
the passage from the hon. member's speech to which he
referred. The hon. gentleman said, " You unsettle every-
thing, and you disfranchise in the distribution of seats.
(Laughter, and cries of Hear, hear.) The hon. member
looked only at numbers, but he (Mr. K. Seymer) looked at
fitness. He did not care how many wore rejected if they
were unfit, nor how many were admitted if they were fit.
No one could more deplore the existence of bribery than.
ho did, but it was certainly to be observed that there was
much hiss of it in counties than there wasin boroughs. And
the reason was very obvious. The county constituencies
were spread over an extensive surface of country, and it
was impossible for corrupt agencies to work u thorn in