The Sun.
London, England, 1860-06-22 00:00:00

sword, and how much more influence the administrator of
affairs must have who is a military officer than if he were

a mere civilian. My noble friend Lord Ellenborough felt
that so strongly that he at one time threw out a suggestion
that all the civil servants should be required to pass through
the army, in order that they might hare me military
training. Ido not go that length, but I assert what I be-
_ _

ieve no one conversant with Indian affairs Ni ill require me

to prove, that Indian administration, to be successfully car-
ried on, requires a large admixture of the military element.
(Hear.) Well, then, the question is, how will you get mili-

Lary men to take part in that administration ? My right
hon. friend's theory—at least, it is that'hich is usually put
forward—is that all you have get to do is to give induce-

ments and facilities for officers of the Line to leave their
regiments and enter into the civil administration, and you

will by that means obtain an ample supply. (Hear, hear.)
To that I have two answers. In the first place Ido not be-
lieve that you will get men, and in the second I do not be
lieve that if you do they will be men who have received so
useful and valuable a training as is now enjoyed by officers
in India. With regard to the first point, the difficulty of

obtaining men, probably tLe house will permit me to read
another extract from Lord Canning's recently published

minute :

there was no patronage, as it was a mere matter of course.
As to the officers to be selected, he took it for granted that
that would be left to the Governor-General, and he also took
it for granted that all appointments and commands in India
ought to be left to the Governor-General. The Governor-
General should at all events have a veto : and the patron-

age, position, and power of the Governor-General of India,
so far from being injuriously affected, would be higher if

this proposal were carried out. The only difference would
be this, that they would deprive the Commander-in-Chief
and the Indian Council of the power of making original ap -

pointrnents. We had raised 22 regiments of the line, two
regiments of cavalry, and wo had also made a great addi-
tion to our artillery and engineers entirely to do service in
India, and depend upon it if the Indian Government did
not employ them we should have to add another million and
a half or two millions to our army estimates to maintain
them. If there was not a regular army in India these men
would be entirely displaced. And for what purpose ? To
enable the Indian Government to raise now regiments, and
to proceed in that course which had proved so fatal. The
wisdom of disbanding old regiments for the purpose of rais-
ing new ones he could not see. lie would undertake to sup-
ply India with every man that she required, and he would
maintain a much larger force in this country than was now
maintained without adding one shilling to the army esti.
mates. For these reasons, and trusting he had not said one
word that was offensive to the Indian officers, he trusted
that leave would be given to bring in this bill, and he
should give it his cordial support.
Col. SYKES said he would take a much more extended
view than that of class interests. The question was, would
this bill tend to the good government of India and the satis-
faction of the people. The great thing to argue was the ult -
mate results of the bill. Last year his right hon. friend ob-
tained leave to augment the troops from 20,000 to 30,000,
He had now altered his opinion of the local European force,
because they attempted to maintain their rights when the
Government of the East India Company terminated. The
hon. and gallant member recapitulated the facts connected
with the claim of the Indian troops to a bounty upon re-en-
listment, arguing that they were right as to the view they
took of their own case ; and of the 10,0 0 which came home
a great portion of them re-enlisted. There had been several
instances in which regiments had insisted upon and ob-
tained their rights, but that had not led to any want of con-
fidence in them in future times. The hon. and gallant
member read an extract from an address from Lord Clyde
to the Bombay army, complimenting them on their bravery
and discipline as shown in the face of the enemy and during
the recent mutiny in India. The hon. and gallant member
also read extracts from despatches from Sir H. Rose and
General Mansfield equally complimentary to the bravery
and discipline of the Bombay army. From all this he was
justified in saying that the grounds for the amalgama-
tion, as regarded the cause of the mutiny, had no founda-
tion in fact. His right hon. friend had quoted Malcolm and
Metcalfe in favour of this principle of amalgamation. But
when these celebrated men expressed themselves in favour
of amalgamation, the officers of the native troops had no
sank. But as these officers had obtained rank in 1855, the
reasons urged by Malcolm and Metcalfe for the amalgama-
tion were no longer in force. The hon. and gallant
member then referred to the patronage which this principle
of amalgamation would throw into the hands of the Go-
vernment, and said that, although that subject had been
pooh-poohed, yet it was a fact that, if the principle was
carried out, the Horse Guards would have to grant 4,980
new commissions, and this was no small amount of patron-
age. He would advise his right hon friend to withdraw
the bill.
Mr. PEACOCKE supported the bill, the principle of
which must be admitted to be based upon right grounds.
Sir DE L. EVANS said he desired to express a few words
on this subject; but he felt great embarrassment in at pre-
sent presenting himself to the house, when the bill before
it was not yet read oven a first time, disinclined as he was
to take any course that could at all have a tendency to era-
bsrrass the Government. Much had been said about India,
but in his opinion they yet knew very little of that great
nation. With regard to the bill, he must say that it was, in
his opinion, a very bad and very ill-framed bill ; because in
it the Government proposed to preclude any further step t 4
be taken in reference to the arrangement. With respect to
the Royal Commission that sat last year on the subject, ho
must say that it was not right to place the Commander-in-
chief of the army as a member of that commission, stand-
ing as he did in a position in which ho should not be ex-
posed to conceive a prejudice. Looking at the speech which
was delivered on the subject of the reorganisation of the
Indian army by the Secretary of State for India, the right
hon. gentleman in that speech, delivered on the 10th of
August last, expressed opinions on the question entirely at
variance with the opinions which he gave expression to in
introducing the present bill. The hon. gentleman in that
speech, delivered on the 10th of August, said it was his in-
tention to recommend an augmentation to the extent of at
least 30,000 men to the local European force in India. The
right hon. gentleman spoke in high terms of that force on
that occasion, and said they had not, as imputed, mutinied;
but now the right hon. gentleman spoke of them as having
mutinied, and that it was desirable to do away with them,
as a local force, and to amalgamate them with her Ma-
jesty's forces of the line. It was his intention to move
for correspondence on the subject. He was rather sur-
prised at having heard the right hon. gentleman say that
the men of the local European force, when it was pro-
posed to them on their disbandonment to enter the Queen's
regiments of the line, were not entitled to bounty. Now
that was not fair towards the men, and particularly when
it was born in mind that when men volunteered from the
line into the local European force in India, it was a fixed
rule that they received a new bounty. Why, then, should
not the men of the local European force in India be en-
titled, on the same principle, to a similar advantage. Itwas
now plain that the real originators of the so-called mutiny
sat on the Treasury benches. From the manner in which
the men were sent home it would appear that the authori-
ties at Calcutta had some resentment against them. They
all remembered the state in which some of those poor fel-
lows were brought to Liverpool ; yet, unworthy of the ser-
vice as they were said to be, were immediately re-enlisted
in her Majesty's service. Could any step be more incon-
sistent or self-convicting. He was ready to admit the high
position of the officers upon whose opinion the Government
was proceeding, but he did not think that opinion was so
overwhelming. Sir Hugh Rose said that recent events had
convinced him that a local force in India was dangerous,
but the fact was that the career of those officers was a suffi-
cient explanation for what had occurred. It was most ex-
traordinary that officers should thus speak of men who had
distinguished themselves in every field, and who well main-
tained the honour of those who had fought in the great
battles of India since the days of Plassy. It would
almost seem from the reports that the local troops had
disgraced themselves in every field. Why, who was it.
who had been the saviour of the British empire in India ?
The noblest civilian in the service, Sir John Lawrence.
Sir Henry Lawrence, too, was called upon to perform the
most arduous and difficult service. But it was said,
forsooth, that the local troops were not sufficiently dis-
ciplined. However, the proof of the pudding was in the
eating of it, those officers' opinions could not be maintained,
and he thought they were by no means justified in the cen-
sure they had pronounced. He understood questions had
been put in the committee on the organisation of the Indian
army whether some officers had not been selected for high
commands in India who were physically incapable for the
service. Those questions were rejected and treated with
disdain by officers of high position on the committee, but
there was no doubt that the Horse Guards had made such
appointments. One of them was reported to be wrong in
his upper storey, and another was both deaf and blind.
Such was the operation of that most exemplary of military
institutions, the Horse Guards. Of the last appointment
he spoke with the greatest reluctance, yet it was his duty
to say that an officer who had seen no service had been ap-
pointed by the noble lord at the head of the Government to
the command of 320,000 men. In spite of those assurances
that were made to them, they could scarcely believe that
Horse Guards appointments were made without perfect
regard for fairness and fitness. If the Horse Guards were
such a piece of perfection in military administration, how
came it that committees of inquiry had been moved for,
both by the Horse Guards itself, and the War Department,
one of which was now sitting, to inquire into all kinds of
irregularities. It was unparliamentary to refer to the pro
ceedings of a commission which had not yet reported, but
the Governor-General had not hesitated to do so, and he
would take upon himself to say that the revelations which
had already taken place concerning it disclosed matters of
extreme imps,' tar cc.
The SPEAKER here interrupted the hon. and gallant
gentleman to remind him that it was a rule of the house
not to refer to the proceedings of a commission which had
not been reported.
Sir DE LACY EVANS said he only wished that other
hon. gentlemen, not Radical members like himself, would
adhere to the letter of the rule. However, as the house
would now be soon in possession of the report of the com-
mittee in question, he had every reason to believe that there
would be a fair opportunity for considering the matters he
referred to in the second reading of the bill. At present the
Government were aiming at acquiring the whole patronage
of the Indian native cadetships, and that was not a power
which ought to be entrusted to the Horse Guards. Is was
generally thought, however, that some higher influence had
been used to make the Government go round from their
statements of last year, when they declared that a native
force of 30,000 men should be maintained in India to
state-
operateco-
with the European army. He thought the
ments of the noble lord the member for Lynn were quite
conclusive against the bill, and he warned the house not to
consent to the dangerous extension of the patronage and
power of the Crown, which evidently constituwteidthtthheecthonieef
object of the bill. (Hear.)
Captain JERVIS said he was much struck
of the speech of the hon. and learned gentleman who had just
spoken, and the purport ofw hhi cehinwgatset he
xattetnhde
theb re
bill
patronage
srneaelglye
nothing but a job, its object
of the Crown. That was a question which he did not expect
to have been called upon to discuss. The question was
whether we were to have a local army, or whether the Eu-
ropean army was to be increased ; and, upon that point,
Lord Canning's despatch clearly pointed out that the Indian
army could not be recruited from England. Sir C. Tre-
velyara, who was by no means disposed to follow the Govern-
ment blindly, did not dispute that point, yet the hon. and
gallant member for Westminster had made the debate the ,

groundwork of an unwarrantable attack upe n the Horse
Guards. A commission was appointed in 1837, of which the
noble lord at the head of tht; Government was a member,in
which it was clearly laid down that while the Commander-
in-Chief was responsible to the Crown for the discipline of
the Army, the Secretary of State was alone -responsible for
the expense. The Commanders-in-Chief in• India were re-
sponsible alone to the Gover:ament, which could be seen by
a letter written by :Lord Clyde to the Governor-General,
when he declined giving any opinion respectilng the ma-
nagement of the army in India, be cause he believed his duty
to be to obey any instructions he plight receive.
Leave was then given to bring in tae bill.
The Poor Relief (Ireland) Bill wak: read a second time
and ordered to be committed on Monday-
The Local Boards of Health Bill was•. read a third time
and passed.
The Local Government Supplemental 13111 was also read
a third time.
The Anstruther Union Harbour Bill went into com-
mittee.

The various clauses were agreed to, arid the house re-
sumed.
Several orders were postponed, and the house went into
committee on the
INLAND BONDING BILL.
The remaining clauses of the bill were agyeed to, and the
house resumed.
CALEDONIAN AND CRINAN CANALS BILL.
On the motion that this bill be read a third time,
Mr. W. WILLIAMS moved, as an amendmtut, that the
bill bo read a third time that cial• three months.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, was sur-
prised at the opposition of his hon. friend, as the bill was
one for the benefit of the public.
Col. FRENCH supported the amendment.
After a few words from Lord JOHN MANNERS and. Mr.
LAIN G,
The house divided, when there appeared—
For the third reading
For the amendment... .
Majority for third reading..
The bill was then read a third time.
LAW OF PROPERTY BILL.
This bill was read a third time.
BURIAL GROUNDS (IRELAND) ACT (1856)
AMENDMENT BILL.
This bill was read a second time.
CRIMINAL LUNATIC ASYLUM BILL.
This bill passed through committee.
PROFESSIONAL OATHS ABOLITION BILL.
This bill passed through committee pro forma.
ROMAN CATHOLIC CHARITIES BILL.
On the motion that the adjourned debate on this bill be
resumed,
Mr. HENLEY moved that it be recommitted.
Mr. BOWYER (the originator of the bill) said he had
no objection, and seconded the motion.
The bill was then recommitted.
On clause 1, which provides that Roman Catholic CL ari
ties should not be void on account of certain conditions of

trust,
Mr. HENLEY expressed himself not satisfied with the.
construction of the clause. The clause said that any canon.
of the church, trust, discipline, rule, &c., of the charity,
were not to be considered superstitious.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL here read the clause,
which, with certain omissions, would run thus :—" No
gift for any legal charitable purpose shall be, nor be deemed
to be unlawful or void by reason of any trust, gift, or
bequest ;" and no gift for a valid, legal, or charitable pur-
pose, shall be deemed or held to be superstitious. No such
case as a mixture of " bad" use with " good" use would be
recognised, as the bad would infect the whole; but re-
member that what was given for good use would be valid
in law, and not accounted superstitious.
Mr. ADDERLEY thought the clause went further than
the hon. and learned gentleman supposed. A thing might
be good and legal in one country, and bad and superstitious
in another.
Mr. NE'WDEGATE moved that the Chairman report
progress.
After some conversation, the committee divided; and
there appeared—
For reporting progress
Against
Majority
The clause having again been put from the chair, sores
discussion arose, and Mr. STEUART having moved that the
Chairman report progress, the committee divided, and there
appeared—
For reporting progress
Against
Majority —34
Mr. WHALLEY wished to know under what disabilities
the Roman Catholics laboured, or upon- what ground they
olaimed an exceptional law. He moved that the Chairman
do report progress.
After some discussion the committee again divided, and
there appeared—
For reporting progress
Against it
Majority ... —3B
Mr. WHALLEY moved that the Chairman leave the
chair.

The committee then divided, and the numbers were—
For the motion 9
Against
Majority
On the clause being again put,
Mr. STEUART moved that the Chairman report pro-
gress.
Mr. NEWDEGATE thought the minority had done
their duty, and that they should not further persist in their
opposition.
The committee again divided, and there appeared—
For reporting progress 7
Against 46
Majority
On the clause being put,
Mr. WHALLEY moved that the Speaker leave the
chair. He would suggest a " count out." He afterwards
withdrew his motion, and moved that the debate be ad-

journed.
The CHAIRMAN said that that motion could not be
entertained in committee.
The clause was then put and agreed to amid cheers.
The house adjourned at 25 minutes to four o'clock.

COUNTRY MARKETS.

MANCHESTER-JuxE 21.

Fresh English wheat could not be had on lower terms,
and foreign brought quite as much money, but sales were
limited. Flour a slow sale, and unaltered in value. Beans,
oats, and oatmeal as before.