The Sun.
London, England, 1869-07-07 00:00:00

INDIAN FINANCE.

The Duke of ARGYLL gave notice that he should
make a statement relative to the finances of India on the
19th instant.

GAS BILLS.

The Imperial Gas Bill and the South Metropolitan Gas
Bill were read a third time and passed.

THE WESLEYANS IN IRELAND.

The Duke of ABERCORN called the attention of the
house to an outrage which had taken place in Ireland on
Sunday last, when a Wesleyan Methodist congregation
assembled in a gentleman's park were separated by a
Roman Catholic mob in a most violent manner. He con-
sidered such a proceeding suggestive of what might be
expected from a free Protestant Church in Ireland. It
was not a case of Protestant ascendancy, or of titles
or endowments; but here was a meeting of one
of the poorest, most modest, and least aggressive religious
body most unjustifiably interfered with. He wished to
know whether her Majesty's Government had received
any information on the subject, and, if so, whether he
could give it to their lordships.
Earl SPENCER said all the information in the posses-
sion of the Government was that an open air meeting of
Wesleyans was interrupted by the Roman Catholics.
Several of the offenders had been identified, and proceed-
ings would, of course, be taken against them.

THE IRISH CHURCH BILL.
Their lordships went into committee on this bill.
On clause 68 being moved,
Lord CAIRNS moved an amendment with a view of
altering the body by which the surplus fund was to be
appropriated. The bill set out that the Poor Law
Commissioners were to distribute the funds to the local
commissioners, and he thought that such a provision was
entirely at variance with the proper functions of the Poor-
law Commissioners to call upon them to deal with six or
eight millions of money, and that entirely without the
slightest precaution being taken that they were compe-
tent to administer such a large fund properly. He thought
the mode proposed by the bill as it stood of dealing with
the surplus was very objectionable, and he therefore moved
the insertion of words to reserve the question of the ap-
propriation of the surplus be reserved for the future con-
sideration of Parliament.

Earl GRANVILLE would not willingly accept the pro-
posal of the noble lord. The house had already largely
trenched upon the surplus, but the Commissioners would by
the exercise of their borrowing powers realizing a consider-
able portion within 18 months. He considered it would be
most unfortunate to hold the fund up as a bone of con-
tention to the whole of the United Kingdom for any length
of time. It would result in anything but peace and quiet-
ness to keep open a subject that had, after much discussion,
closed by the bill, and that that disturbed state of things
would not alone affect the Protestants, but the Roman
Catholics would feel the inconvenience of such a proviso
with equal inconvenience.
The Earl of IVIALMESBURY thought as the surplus
was at present somewhat of a myth, it was not too much
to ask that some further consideration should be had before
any determination was come to with regard to it. He did
not believe that any noble lord present would adopt such
a course of proceeding in their own private concerns,
and therefore he did not see why it should be
carried out in an Act of Parliament. All writers and
travellers in Ireland concurred in one thing, and thht was
that if the Roman Catholic prests were better provided for
Increased tranquility would be the result. (Hear.) I Ender
such circumstances if delay was granted it would give time
to consider whether concurrent endowment ought or
ought not to be made. (Hear, hear.) If the proposal of
his noble friend was accepted, he believed that the result
of thb delay would be concurrent endowment, because he
did not see how the surplus could be more equitably dis-
posed after what had taken place during the debates that
had arisen:on the bill.

The Marquis of CLANRICARDE thought it a great
mistake to tie up the hands of Parliament and the Go-
vernment with respect to the surplus just at this particu-
lar moment. ("Hear, hear," from the Opposition.) As
the question of the surplus was involved in such obscu-
rity, he thought it would be wise to adopt the amendment
of the noble lord opposite.
Lord TAUNTON had felt a good deal of difficulty in
:palling up his mind on this important point. On the one
hand, he had felt •the danger of keeping this question
dangling before the people for several years; but, on the
other hand, he feared that, in adopting the distribution
proposed by the Government, Parliament would be taking
a very unfortunate course. (Hear, hear.) He had given
a very cordial vote for the motion of the noble marquis
(Salisbury) to apply part of the surplus to the improvement
of the glebes of the Anglican clergy, and he had given a
still heartier support to the motion of his noble friend (the
Duke of Cleveland) to provide the Roman Catholic clergy
—the clergy of the great body of the Irish people—with
glebes and decent houses. (Cheers.) The situation in
which the question was now place fiilled him with
alarm, for he felt that their lordships were sending the
bill back to the House of Commons altered in respect
Of giving greater advantages to the clergy of the Esta-
blished Church, with whom personally they naturally
sympathised, but stripped of a proposal which would have
given glebes to the Roman Catt6lic priests. (Hear, hear.)
Now, he was strongly of opinion that if Parliament wished
to obtain the affections and secure the tranquillity of the
great body of the Irish people, it should lose no fitting
opportunity of improving the position of their clergy, and
of thus showing respect for that religion to which they
were so firmly attached. (Cheers.) Nor was that class
of men unworthy of consideration. His personal ac-
quaintance with Ireland was confined to a single year, but
that year was a very remarkable one, for it was the period
of the famine. As Secretary for Ireland he was in Dublin
during the whole of that year, and never did a day pass
without his room being crowded with Roman Catholic
priests, who described to him the dreadful state of their
parishes and asked his advice and assistance. Very often—a
sight he was very glad to witness—they came had in hand
with the Protestant clergymen of the same parishes, and he
was able to supply them with means of relief out of the
funds placed at his disposal by the-profuse but insufficient
liberality of the British people. He had never omitted the
opportunity of expressing his hope that they would do their
part in calming the minds of their flocks ; and in assuring
them of the heart-felt sympathy of the Government ; and he
was bound to say that the conduct of the Roman Catholic
priesthood during that crisis was most exemplary.
(Hear, hear.) Knowing the heroic sacrifices they then
made in every part of Ireland, and how they threw away
theirown lives in standing by their flocks in the hour of
trial, he was not surprised at their bold on the affections
of the Irish peeple. Now, the people of Ireland would
not go into nice calculations, and it was necessary to
speak in loud and distinct tones if Parliament wished
them to believe in a real change of policy, and to see
that it was desirous of doing them justice. Nothing
would speak so strongly and effectually to them as a
manifestation of sympathy and respect for their priest-
hood, by providing them with decent houses side by side
with those of the Protestant clergymen. (Cheers.) He
deeply regretted, therefore, the defeat of a proposal
which would have given to the Roman Catholic and
also the Presbyterian clergy improved sustenance and
support by means of glebes and houses. (Cheers.) He
was not as sanguine as some noble lords that if they post-
poned the consideration of this question they might not
incur dangers and difficulties—and to his mind they were
no slight ones—from throwing this subject loose upon the
country, and be was not so sanguine that at the end their
lordships would find themselves any better off. (Hear,
hear.) He regretted it, but he must do the best he could.
If it were in ordinary cases to follow the maxim
"Et mihi res, non me rebus, submittere conor,"
in matters connected with religion it was especially neces-
sary. Under these circumstances, placed in a difficulty,
as he felt himself to be, he should vote against the amend-
ment of the noble and learned lord. (Hear, hear.) He was
most anxious that this controversy with the other house
should be closed. Their lordships had already made very
important alterations in the bill. He had no doubt that
the other house would view those alterations fairly and
dispassionately, and would endeavour to see whether they
could not be taken in accordance with those principles
which underlay the whole bill; but he could not conceal
from himself, from indications he had seen of the temper
of the House of Commons, that the probability was that
they would not pass. (Hear, hear.) He thanked their
lordships for the attention with which they had heard him.
He had been anxious to state the grounds on which he
should vote, but he confessed that he had not arrived at
the conclusion to which he had come without some hesita-
tion. (Hear, hear.)
The committee divided, and the numbers were::

For the amendment
Against it 9O
Majority against —7o
The amendment was therefore carried, and the clause,
AS amended, agreed to.

On clause 69,
The Bishop of OXFORD proposed to add a proviso
retaining to the ordained clergy of the Irish Church the
same status and privileges as the clergy of the Episcopal
Church of Scotland.

On the suggestion of Lord CAIRNS, this question was
postponed until the report.
The other clauses, which relate to the interpretation
of terms and other technical matters, were then agreed to.
The postponed clauses were then taken.

On clause 19,
Lord CAIRNS proposed to add a power to the Esta-
blished Church to meet in convocation or general assem-
bly representing the clergy and laity of the several dio-
ceses, for the purpose of re-organising the Church before
the time for disestabEshment arrived.

After some discussion the amendment, with a slight
verbal alteration, was adopted, and the clause agreed to.

On clause 20,

The Archbishop of DUBLIN moved an amendment
that no alteration in the doctrines or formularies of the

disestablished Church should be binding on any ordained
minister who had expressed his dissent within six months.
The LORD CHANCELLOR thought that the amend-
ment would be an invitation to schism and dissent, and
hoped that in the interests of the Church itself it would
not be pressed.
The amendment was agreed to after some discussion,
and the clause as amended added to the bill.

Clauses 21 and 22 were agreed to, with some verbal
amendments at the suggestion of Lord Cairns, who, how-
ever, reserved an important one for the report.
On the preamble, Lord Cairns moved an amendment to
bring it into harmony with his alteration of the 68th
clause, reserving the surplus for the future appropriation
of Parliament.

The preamble was then agreed to, and the bill passed
through committee, and was ordered to be reported en
Friday.
The other business having been disposed of, the house
adjourned.

IIOUSE OF CONIdIONS.—LAST EVENING.

The SPEAKER took the chair at two o'clock.

The house then went into committee on the Contagions
Diseases Prevention Act, which occupied the whole of
the morning sitting.

The house resumed at 9 o'clock.

In reply to Mr. AKROYD,
Mr. AYRTON stated that the correspondence on the
subject of proposals for a reduction of the wine duties, in
connection with negotiations for treaties of commerce with
Spain and Portugal, was not complete; but when it had
arrived at such a stage that it could be presented he would
be happy to do so.
Mr. H. RICHARD called attention to recent proceed-
ings of certain landlords in Wales towards tenants on ac-
count of the free exercise of the franchise at the last elec-
tion. He moved, " That, in the opinion of this house, the
recent proceedings of certain landlords in Wales towards
tenants, on account of the free exercise of the franchise at
the last election, are oppressive and unconstitutional, and
an infringement of the rights conferred by Parliament on
the people of this country."

Mr. O. MORGAN seconded the motion.
After some observations from Mr. T. LLOYD and Mr.
WHALLEY,
Mr. BRUCE said the course taken by the hon. member
for Merthyr was, under the circumstances, a very proper
one, but as he bad not given notico of his resolution he
hoped it would not be pressed.

The motion was then withdrawn.
The other business was disposed of, and the house
adjourned.

AMERICAN FREEDOM OF DISCUSSION.

We publish the letter of a Dresden authoress to
a New York journal, forwarded to us by an Ameri-
can gentleman, we presume because it contains
severe strictures on Americans abroad. These are
answered by the correspondent at whose request
the letter finds a place in our columns, who is almost
as well known in Germany as in his own country.
Although lengthy for pages that can hardly con-
tain the weekly summary of American news, we the
more readily respond to this wish of a highly valued
friend, as it illustrates a trait in the American cha-
racter on which Miss BOETE has not touched. It is
often said, more especially by themselves, that of
all nations the English most systematically dis-
parage themselves, accepting abuse with unruffled
composure ; and complacently, even joyously, repro-
ducing the animadversions of others. The words DIC-
KENS puts into the mouth of one of his American cha-
racters, ' We ai'reanation that must be cracked up,"
are accepted throughout Europe as characteristic of
a people believed to be extremely sensitive ; boast-
ing in extravagant language, resenting unfavour-
able comments, and persistently viewing their own
bright side only, while through the German lady's let-
ter may be seen some such notion. Arrogance, an of-
fensive affectation of superiority, a vulgar liberty
which loosens the restraints indispensable to good
training and good society, shown most in the rear-
ing of children ; these are the characteristics of Ame-
ricans, according to Miss BOETE. We do not intend
to controvert her position, as our correspondent has
already travelled over that ground, nor do we wish
to disguise the fact that American children have so
availed themselves of the liberties their fathers won
in battle, as to run, if not into license, at least into
irreverence. While recognising that what checks this
is beneficial, our object is to show that whatever be
the shortcomings of Americans, no other people
ought to know their failings better, for no others so
widely circulate the opinions of foreigners detri-
mental to themselves. They do this as if they only
desired to extract the truth however uncomplimen-
tary, and when people not only bear with unplea-
sant remarks, but gratuitously circulate them
throughout their country, leaving the inhabitants
to extract the genuine from the malicious for their
reflection and improvement, they cannot be in a
very bad way. It is a fact which ought to be known
in England that every question arising between the
countries is debated as well from the English point
of view as from the American, the English side re-
ceiving full attention. That this is so in the United
States to a far greater degree than in the United
Kingdom is sufficiently shown by the Alabama con-
troversy. It is said that the English had no notion
of the feeling prevailing in America on this subject
till their eyes were opened by Mr. SUMNER, and
the action of the Senate on the Clarendon-Johnson
Treaty. When England responded in a fury ; when
her press breathed a spirit of defiance and war ;
when America was lampooned by the comic papers,
satirized by the satirical, denounced by the in-
dignant, and reasoned with by the argumentative ;
when statesmen made speeches and lawyers piled
up cases of practice and precedent, the position was
as follows :—Senator SU3INER'S speech had not been
read by one Englishman in a thousand who censured
it in unmeasured terms—it had not been published in
a single British paper; the arguments by which Ame-
ricans supported their grievances were little known,
indeed the attitude assumed was never explained, and
could not be understood. Thespeeches made in Ame-
rica and the articles published by the American press,
were alike ignored in England, even while the atten-
tion of the nation was almost exclusively given to the
Alabama question. But the case widely differed in
America, where everything of material importance,
every article of the Times, letters coming from per-
sons in a position to throw light on the subject,
were all copied into the American papers ; nor that
only. Americans assembled to hear Englishmen
lecture on the question in their own country, every
word of which was spread throughout the land ; not
an argument was delivered from a platform, spoken in
a legislature, or embodied in a pamphlet which did not
receive pointed attention ; even the lampoons of
the English comic papers being reproduced. Thus
the Americans had the benefit of hearing both sides,
and If they are altogether wrong it is not from
want of knowledge, but from an incapacity to ap-
preciate the adversary's case. In such matters, we
maintain, that Americans are eminently just, and
liberal to a degree never before reached by any other
people. It is said that the New York Tribune
represents a section of the Republic which would, if
it could, shut out everything English ; hating the
country so strongly as to desire, if possible, to change
the language in which it is printed. Yet no paper
could have done more complete justice to the English
side, while persistently maintaining its own view. If
that view be unjust, while admitting it to be ex-
treme, we fail to see it ; and even the most bitter
enemies of the gribune must allow the e truth
exceededof our
io
remark that its fairness could not
publishing in its columns the argumentsofththeehoostthieler
side. This habit of freely reproducing
criticism of foreigners is good; for telling against
real faults it tends towards their correction, though
raising bnt a smile of contempt when manifestly
untrue. Besides, it has an excellent effect in letting
men know what is said of them behind their backs,
which, perhaps, is beneficial in proportion to the
pain it gives ; for it neutralises what is objection-
able in vanity, and wearing out sensitive feelings
thickens the skin so as to enable individuals to bear
with calm unconcern bitter remarks against their
country when they know them to be unfair. No-
thing more impresses others than the dignity with
which unjust aspersions are received and the mode-
ration with which they are answered, for the un-
moved manner is indicative of strength and of the
knowledge of a secure position, which has done most
to uphold and perpetuate the British aristocracy; the
quiet assurance, so imposing on the crowd. Yet
another good point in the freedom with which the
American press discusses not only all questions, but
all sides of those questions, is that it takes away the
power of an agitator to raise commotion. The people
are neither to be startled into surprise or panic, nor
roused into fury, by anything the press can do.
The most apt illustration of the latitude allowed