The Sun.
London, England, 1860-06-15 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.--(YESTERDAY.)

THE NAVY.

On t! e order of the day for going into committee of
supply on the navy estimates,
Mr. LINDSAY moved the following motion :—" That,
with a view to greater efficiency in war and less expenditure
in peace, it is the opinion of this house that more prompt and
effective measures should be adopted to complete the re-
serves of marines and seamen for her Majesty's navy."
Mr. LIDDELL said that great dissatisfaction was felt
from the non-establishment of school ships, and he believed
there was only one school ship in existence.

Lord C. PAGET said there had been several communi.
cations between the Admiralty and the Board of Trade re-
specting the school ships. There were two classes of those
ships—namely, the ships exclusively for the navy and the
mixed school ships ; the ship Eagle, which had been sent
to Southampton, being of the former description. Mixed
school ships the Admiralty had not sent to Southampton
nor anywhere else, wishing to pause for a while and see
how the school ships exclusively for the navy succeeded.
Surely the Government was entitled to take their time and
watch results before they ventured rashly to expend the
public money. With respect to the naval reserve, it was
making fair progress, and would get on faster only that
theyrefusedall but first-rate seamen. The proof of this was
that shipowners were most anxious to get reserve men--
the Great Eastern being, if possible, to be at least half
manned from that source. With respect to enrolling
young mercantile officers in the naval reserve, it had
certainly rather a taking aspect, but he doubted
whether it would be of much use in getting the 20,000
men which his honourable friend had promised. The con-
dition of the petty officers on board men-of-war was already
very much improved, and as to the question of discipline,
a bill would be shortly introduced considerably modifying
the articles of war. The reserve was going on very fairly,
but th y had determined to take no second class men, as
they believed that certain recent unfortunate occurrences had
arisen from a too indiscriminate enlistment. There were
now 9,000 boys training for the navy ; in addition there was
the following reserve :—Coastguard, 6,642 men ; naval re-
serve (now), 1,105 men; royal naval cast volunteers,
7,007 ; marines on shore, 6,084 ; making a total of 23,831
men, exclusive of marines and sailors, afloat. The St.
George was being fitted for sea, and although only a few
days in commission was already half manned, and there
were the Hecate, Torch, and other vessels also getting
manned with great facility. These were then our present
forces at home. He should have greatly preferred not to
have addressed the house until after the hon. and gallant
admiral the member for Southwark had spoken on the sub-
ject, as it was very much the practice of the hon. and gal-
lant gentleman to wait for him (Lord C. Paget), and then
take him to task when he had no opportunity of replying.
(Laughter.) In conclusion, however, he would assure the
house that no exertions should be spared by the Admiralty
in endeavouring to get up these reserves as quickly as pos-
sible. (Hear, hear.)
Admiral WALCOTT saidlhe thought that greater advan-
t ages ought to be held out in the naval service in the shape
of incentives to emulation, increase of wages, and a liberal
pension at the expiration of a certain period of service. At
the present time, owing to their indiscriminate treatment
of good and bad seamen alike, we now experienced a defi-
ciency of men. He would again urge on the Admiralty
the great importance of entering boys at ages between 1I
and 16 to the extent of 2,000 to 3,000 every year. That
arrangement would be found to conduce very greatly to the
efficiency of the service, and for that purpose training ships
ought to be established at Plymouth, Woolwich, Chatham,
and Deptford, and our principal 'mercantile ports. Were
that done, he would stake his professional fame on it, our
naval supremacy would never fade.
Sir C. NAPIER, in alluding to the observation of the
Secretary to the Admiralty (Sir C. Paget), that he (the hon.
and gallant admiral) always rose to address the house after
the noble lord had done speaking, said that he generally
spoke very early in the debate ; but if he did on any occa-
sion follow the noble lord, it was because he was taught by
experience to do so. He thought the noble lord had given
very unsatisfactory replies to the able speech of his hon.
friend (Mr. Lindsay), who had stated most distinctly and
clearly that the recommendations of the Manning Commis-
sion had not been carried into execution. That commission
recommended a reserve of 60,000 men, not including the
5,000 additional marines and 5,000 men on leave on other
stations. The noble lord admitted that we had only 23,000
men, but the house would not include in that calculation
the men in the different ports and dockyards. If the noble I
lord had read the report of the Manning Commission, he 1
would have found that the number recommended was in ad-
dition
to those men. The commissioners also hoped that
the coastguard would be speedily raised, but that had not
been done ; and it had not been done because too many re-
strictions had been imposed. Those who were entrusted
with the management of the coastguard had pointed out
that the term of service was too long, and that therefore
they could not get the men. The commission recommended
12,000 men as the number required, but the noble lord ad-
mitted they had only 6,800, and it was now nearly a year
since the report of the commission was made. At the pre-
sent moment we were not in very favourable relations with
other powers; and if things should get worse on the Con-
tinent, how were they to man the fleet on an emer-
gency ? His hon. friend behind him (Mr. Lindsay) had
said of the 4,000 men recommended by the commission to
be raised in addition to those on the guard ships and flag
shipsond all the men scattered about for various purposes
in our ports, we had not a single one. Well, then, what
reserve really had we ? Of the numbers recommended by
the commission we bad only 3,182 men upon whom they
could rely, and who were ready to be called out on an emer •
gency. In the tenders there were 576, in the district ships'
companies, able and ordinary seamen, landsmen, and boys,
they had 1,873 more. His hon. friend (Mr. Lindsay) asked
with great propriety who were to officer the 20,000 royal
volunteers when they got on board, and recommended that
officers from the merchant service should be employed.
Those officers were not to be paid, and he only asked for
them that they should be allowed a simple decoration, such
as an arrow on the arm. Those officers would accompany
the crews in the fine ships of the merchant service, and
would say to them, " I am a reserve officer, why should you
not be a reserve seaman f" He believed there was only the
prejudice of those in office against such a proposal, and, for
his own part, he thought the plan was a plain and sensible
one. If some such system were not adopted, and any sud-
den emergency arose, we should be obliged to man our ships
with convicts, the sweepings of the gaols, and what were
called "Lord Mayor's" men. (Laughter.) If the Admi-
ralty had taken proper steps to take up the men who had
deserted, to establish naval prisons in the different ports to
punish them for that desertion, and to publish proper laws
for their punishment, he believed we should have very little
desertion. The noble lord said he was devising new laws,
but he was a very long time about it. His hon. friend had
also recommended a higher grade of petty officers. At pre-
sent the difference between the seamen and the petty officers
was not sufficiently great, nor the difference between the
petty officer and the warrant officer. A seaman had nothing
to look forward to but a boatswain, a gunner, or a carpen-
ter, except in time of war, when he might have an oppor-
tunity of distinguishing himself by some gallant action.
The condition of officers of the grades he had referred to
should be raised, and that e'Revnly to be done by raising
their pay. It was to be rese,eriSel also that school ships
had not been established. elle noble lord on that point
only urged that it would cost too much money, and that the
ships would have to be provided with batteries. What the
devil did they wata with batteries ? (Laughter.) The ques-
tion was, were those ships necessary for the service of the
country. If they were, it was the duty of the Government
to provide them at any cost. The Government had also ne-
glected to carry out the recommendations of the commission
with regard to the seaman's fund and savings bank for the
men at the several forts, by which their savings would be
relieved from the liability of being plundered. As regarded
the manning of the navy, the Great Eastern, the Peninsu-
lar and Oriental Company, and other great steam naviga-
tion companies found no difficulty in manning their vessels,
and it was a disgrace to the country that her Majesty's fleet
could not be manned. The great steam companies had no
difficulty in getting seamen to go to the coast of Africa, the
West Indies, or any other part of the world, and it was a
disgrace to the country that vessels of her Majesty's navy
could not be manned with the same facility. The Admiralty
ought to adopt some means for popularising the royal navy,
and he would also impress upon them the necessity of train-
ing boys for the service, because, although that might in-
volve a large expense, it was preferable to that system of
cobbling which had gone on since the peace, without any
satisfactory result whatever. He expressed himself the
more strongly on these subjects because at present confu-
sion prevailed, not only in Sicily and in the East, but he
might say throughout the world. He believed that money
had much better be spent in strengthening our navy
than in fortifying our ports and towns. (Hear, hear.) For-
tifying our coasts would be entirely useless, because the
Emperor Napoleon, if he intended to invade this country,
would not be such a blockhead as to attack fortifications,
but he would find places at which to land on the east and
south shores of England. The only proper, and the only
British way of defending the country was by having a well.-
manned and well-disciplined navy. (Cheers.)
Mr. BEN TINCK entirely concurred with the hon. mem-
ber for Sunderland in the opinion. that the Board of Admi-
ralty had not exerted themselves to the utmost to carry out
the recommendations of the Manning Commission, but the
question was to whom did the blame principally attach?
The board were no doubt directly responsible, but they had
many difficulties to contend against, and lie contended that
the blame actually rested with the house. It was the real
culprit, because to its utter indifference to that question
was to be traced the absence of the required exertions on
the part of the Admiralty. The Admiralty, like other de-
partments of the Government, had to deal with that incon-
venient personage the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who
often starved departments in order to balance his accounts.
It was almost too much to expect gentlemen opposite would
run the risk of breaking up their Government by having a
downright quarrel with the Ch e of the Exchequer,
and therefore it rested with the house to deal with the
matter, Unfortunately, however, while an attendance of