The Sun.
London, England, 1856-07-15 00:00:00

Governments of England and France to the King of Naples, minister of expel i-ince and high character could never have
with respect to the condition of that country, have not introduced at a conference fer the settlement of terms of
1 Ebert° been attended with any successful result. My noble peace with Rus,ie questions of this vast importance, with-
friend has expressed an opinion that although it is a de- out having previeusly communicated with his colleagues, '1
parture from general principles for one foreign government and felt the pulse of the representatives of the different
to interfere, even by advice, with regard to the internal Courts. That was the conclusion which everybody must
affairs of another state, there are in the condition of the have drawn from the protocols of the conferences ; but a
kingdom of Naples sufficient grounds for a departure short time after war is papers were laid on our table which
from that general principle. The ground on which that completely exhibited the cause of this conduct on the part
exception rests must be evident to every one who casts a of the French Minister, and the means by which the atten-
glance at the map of Europe and takes a retrospect of its tion of the Congress was directed to these extraneous and.
history. If the severity and the injustice of the King of extraordinary subjects. It then appeared that on the 27tia
Naples should load to the outbreaks and resistance which , March, ten days before the exposition of Count Walewski,
occur in the ordinary course of things under similar cir- the Plenipotentiaries of Sardinia placed in the hands of
cnmstances, and if the King of Naples were to find himself . Lord Clarendon a memorandum which, if it be anything,
unable by means of his own troops to restore his authority, is an act of impeachment of Austria and Austrian rule in
it is obvious he would apply to Austria for assistance. Italy, which proposes secularisation, the Code Napoleon,
(Hear.) But would the rest of Europe stand passive spec. and other remedies, and which in spirit was the basis of
titters of that additional interference on the part of Aus. the observations that Lord Clarendon made on the ilth of
tria ? (Hear.) And if they did not, would not that en- April. Therefore it is quite clear that there was an under-
danger the peace of Europe, and would not the complicit- standing among the Plenipotentiaries in Paris that at their
tions and the difficulties which such a state of things would meeting on the Bth of April all these extraneous questions,
create seriously affect the interests of other States in Eu.. including that of Italy, were to be brought forward, that
rope ; and is it not a justification for the friendly enders- the movement came from Piedmont, and that in the me-
yours on the part of the English and French Governments morandum of the 27th of March may be found the mo-
te induce the King of Naples to prevent by his own means tive spring of all that has occurred. (Hear, hear.) Now,
the occurrence of outbreaks which would so much endan- to proceed a step further, what are the engagements, as
ger the general tranquillity of the civilised world? (Hear.) the noble lord the member for the city interprets them,
I say that no succre s has hitherto attended our friendly re- what are the representations which the latest inter-
presentations. But the Government of Naples may have pretatiun of the words we might call them —of Lord
looked with jealousy and suspicion on any advice coming Clarendon ? Our Foreign, Secretary agrees that the state
from the Governments of England and France ; but we do of Greece is " abnormal ; ' he agrees that the condition of
not despair that advice of the same kind coming from a the Roman States is also " abuormal ;" but, as regards
Government in which the King of Naples may place more the Neapolitan Government,
confidence may produce the desired effect. (Hear.) It is "Heis of opinion that it must doubtless be admitted in
one of the misfortunes arising out of the language which principle that no Government has the right to interfere in the
has been too frequently held in vituperation of the course internal affairs of other States, but he considers there are
pursued by France and England, and more especially to cases in which the exception to this rule becomes equally a
the habit of attributing to the English Government the de- right and a duty. The Neapolitan Government seems to him
sign of promoting revolution and fomenting disorders—it to have conferred this right and to have imposed this duty
is, I say, one of the misfortunes arising out of these calum- upon Europe."
bias that they tend to prevent the reception by other Go-
Now, I ask the house whether that is language that could
vernments of the good, and sound, and useful advice of-
fared to them by the Government of this country. (Hear.)
have been used, or ought to have been used, without hav-
But Ido not despair that even the evils which still exist in ing seine foregone conclusion as to the policy of which it
the kingdom of the Two Sicilies may, by the interference of was to be the indication ? Though I may not agree with
those in whom the King of Naples and his councillors the noble lord the member for the City that the language
place more confidence than in the Governments of England of a protoc dof this character is an engagement which may
and France, produce better proceeds to them than have re-
bind us with the formality of a treaty, still it is impossible
stilted from our interference. Therefore, with regard to
to read it without feeling that we have a right to expect
from the noble lord at the head of the Government, with-
Naples, as with regard to Rome, we do not despair—
(laughter)—we see a state of things threatening, as we out revealing the secrets of Cabinets or the mysteries of
think, the interests of Europe; but Ido not at all mean States, some explanation of the declarations of tho Eng-
to say that the British Government give up all hope lish Plenipotentiary more satisfactory than those phrases
of producing an improvement in that state of things. with which the noble lord has favoured ns to-night, and to
With regard, however, to that, as with regard to other which I confess lamat a loss to annex any other mean 'Kg
matters, my treble friend must excuse me from following than that which I had the misfortune, years ago, to at' ash
him into the details into which he entered. On one point to the statements of the noble lord with respect to the affairs
I have no difficulty in giving a full assent to the opinion of Italy. The noble lord has explained to the house what
expressed by my noble fiiend.. My noble friend has stated is the nature of the exceptional character of the Neapolitan
that the King of Sardinia, having bravely and nobly asso- Government, and why there should be a departure, in the
ciated himself with England and France in the war which case of Naples, from that golden-rule of non-interference to
has j eat been closed, has given himself a right—an honour- which I trust the house will adhere, or which it will never
able right —to the support and protection of England and quit without the most urgent necessity. [" Hear, hear,"
from Mr. Bowyer.] The noble lord said the position of
France-- (cheere)—and if any danger should threaten him,
Naples was remarkable, because, if the Government were
not brought about by any provocation on his part—and
that provocation lam sure he is too well advised to give— to conduct itself so as to give rise to any revolutionary
it would be a danger, I agree with my noble friend in movement in the country, the armed forces of a great 'nil:-
thinking, which England and France are bound by every tary Pow( r- 'Austria —were t t ham', i mai y u may depend
upon it," added the noble lord, " Austria would occupy
do of honour and every sentiment that can actuate the
Goveinwents of two great nations, to resist to the utmost Naples, thus producing a state of things that would not only
and to repel. lam satisfied, however, that the knowledge endanger the peace of Europe, but might bring about cala-
mities which it is difficult to measure or foresee." But when
that such a tie exists between him and England and France
will be sufficient to prevent him from being threatened, or
the noble lord defends himself from the charge of doing no-
if he should be threatened and danger should really exist, thing to mitigate the evils which, according to him, render
to repel that danger. No doubt my noble friend is right the state of Naples so exceptional, and which require our
in thinking it would be desirable to encourage those sove- interference, he intimates that, though England and France
reigns of Italy, whose territories are free like the Grand may not succeed—have not succeeded—in obtaining that
Duke of Tuscany, or which are occupied like those of the mitigation of Neapolitan rule which he thinks so neces-
Duchess of Parma, but who wish either to maintain or re- sary, yet some other influence, not less powerful, and
gain their independence ; and it will be the duty of the which will be received in a far more friendly spirit by the
governments of France and England, as far as they can, to Neapolitan Government, may be brought into requisition
encourage those sovereigns in maintaining or regaining with more success. The house clearly understood the
that territorial independence. It is true that Italy is die- noble lord to mean the mediation of Austria. It was the
taut from us, but it is also true that no great conflict of action of Austria upon Naples that, according to the noble
opposing armies, or opposing countries, can take place in lord, was to induce the Neapolitan Government to cease
Italy without spreading far beyond the limits of that from its ill-doing and to adopt that remedial course which
peninsula the flames of war, sad therefore I agree with seemed so expedient. But how extremely inconsistent is
my noble friend in thinking that every wise and enlight- it to hold Austria up to us as the Power which, by its
ened Government of this country most coneider that the beneficent interference with Naples, is to put an end to
affairs of Italy require its constapt and urgent attention, the iniquitous rule which you deplore, and at the same
and that the interests of England, as connected with the time to say that, in the event of any revolutionary move-
interests of Europe, will be best consulted by securing ment in Naples, Austria will occupy the kingdom in order
to the several states of Italy that perfect independence to uphold the very misrule to mitigate which Austrian
within their own limits which the 'east security for that mediation, according to your own account, is now the only
good understanding between governments and peoples, and means to which you can resort ! Sir, I cannot have much
which, by establishing that good understanding, is best hopo that the influence of Austria will be of the nature
i rsoto
support o anticipatemitigateth o ma nisij
calculated to prevent those interesting and, as they ought
ie by
which
Austrianthhice
h noble
invasion
Au st lord,rin wnn
mediation order have to n
r© anon
a 4 t
which the noble lord supposes, if, as we are assured at the
to be, prosperous regions from becoming a source game t
of danger and calamity to the rest of Europe. My noble and fear
friend has moved for papers, but said he would not press
government
for their production if it was cousiidered that-it would be remove. But, sir, in what way, viewing this question
prejudicial to the public service. lam bound to tell Illy practically, are we to put an-end to the occupation of
noble friend that the production of the papers in the pre- Italian states by foreign Powers? The noble lord who
sent state of the correspondence would not be conducive to began the debate confined the whole of his observations to
and I
those interests which he takes so much to heart '
the Austrian occupation of part of the Roman states. The
cannot, •
noble lord must have felt the extreme awkwardness of his
respondence therefore, consent to their production. The car-
still is going on, and if it were now made pub position, because when he assured the house of his coufi-
lie would possibly prevent the accomplishment of those donee that, with the aid of our great ally, Austrian ()em-
ends which my noble friend as well as her Majesty's Go- pation might be terminated in the Roman states, he must
have remembered that another part of the same states was
vernment are so desirous of obtaining. I car' only say,
therefore, that, concurring with my noble friend in those occupied by the troops of that very august ally by whose
general views he so well developed, but reserving to her co-operation we were to put an end to the occupation of
Majesty's Government the discretion of pursuing those the Legations by Austria. The noble lord touched very
objects in the manner they may think best calculated to lightly—or, rather, did not touch at all—upon the fact
accomplish their purpose, without any unnecessary depar-
that the capital of the Roman states is occupied by French
tore from those general principles which ought to regulate• troops, though he must be aware that nothing can be more
the intercourse of nations, I trust he will be satisfied with irrational than to address violent representations to Aus-
triathe statement I have made, and that he will not press for in order to terminate the occupation of the Legations
to take steps by which the occupation of the
the production of those papers. He mayrest assured that bY Austrian troops unless, at the same time, our ally is
her Majesty's Government, steadily keeping in view those prepared
objects which he has explained, and in which I concur, Roman metr"polis itself by French troops shall cease. I
willornit no proper endeavour to restore the governments know that this question has been settled by Count Cavell'
of Italy to that freedom of action within their internal in a very ingenious manner; he insi.ts upon it as a first
limits which is, I think, best calculated to promote the condition, that Austria should quit the Legations, and that
security of Italy, and which alone eau secure that country the French army should quit Renee, but should remain in
from becoming a source of danger to the rest of Europe. the Legations until everything ie settled. Now, I ask what
(Cheers.) is the use of doing what the noble lord has done to-night—
what is the use—to employ his own language—of "rousing
Mr. DISRA ELL—The noble lord the member for Lon- the passions" of Italy, unless we have a practical objectbe-
don has called our attention to a subject of the greatest in- fore us, and unless the opinion of Parliament can support
terest and importance; but of Italy it may be said that I' the policy of the Minister ? (Hear, hear.) Never is this
hp
oo
lui se eyb jyua
tts,
htl
fi
efis
seA
Minister
nei ni
as
ter
eaart
pea
rrsei
pn i gan
jr
ei:ir ti
too
ou
sdi imt socp uut shga
eni o
tn hs
eu
countryepocand eu. xe
ott
re
pur-
suedrun
un-
does .
does not feel the greatest sympathy with Italy and thel
must either be considered in a poetical or practical point,
of view. No doubt there is no gentleman in this house who
less we can, by the expression of our opinion, support the
fortunes of the Italians. When we remember how much Minister in a policy which will be beneficial to the country
we owe to that country, that in ancient times it gave us
at dto Europe. So far as the theoretical part of the clues-
tiongoeosf,
psooliftairosuis
concerned
—ftohr
erletableyi
nggoebvu,
tuonfaer
fesesltinhge
our laws, and in modern times our arts, it is totally im-
131°1 poetry
this house —I want to know, when we turn to the possible that its condition can ever be a subject without
prac-
lively interest to the House of Commons. (Heart; Alear.) tical question, what the motion of the noble lord will do,
'ibtsihareye,e
nvwwemhirl;ylt ds
pitosoe ,
point
supportntihootouwsplhoyli
icwohyi.withheld
theohfh throughoutetlhaofrom
policyrmo mi .
But
ot,n,
:ri
si the Minister? 1 4:51,
li(ennciyashtitesbe
discussion
urn?ssg.s)ii Why,yneltoht lai11:
reminded us, and I cannot think, notwithstanding the
high authority he quoted on the subject of poetry, that
the house to-night will feel, on a discussion that may us. (Hear, hear.) I don't expect the noble lord to tell us
involve immediate consequences of the utmost impor- the means by which the Cabinet is to fulfil his policy ;
.and
do
stuh
Manes to the people of this country, that we should in• bat we ought to know from the noble lord what are his
modes
e so whetherce u
,hp,
occupation
ti
iciohsn preparedwo we
enaont d e
(Hear.atel witht a k e)
dulge merely in the poetry of politics on the one hand, general opinions on the subject of the occupation of Italy
or of satisfaction on the other with that vague explanation stepsb yfo, 7 gn
put troops,aaeruB4
which we have just heard from the lips of the First Minis- Now, sir, there in -
tar. (Hear.) The noble lord the member for the city of this question, and as they are both practical modes, I will,
London compensated us for dwelling on the poetry of the with the permission of the house, and with as much brevity
question, and in a very business-like manner, becoming the as I can command, slightly advert to them. We can go to
importance of the subject, reminded us of what occurred at war vv:Vi, Austria, no douLt; we can send a fleet to the Bay
the recent conference at Paris, and of the important State of Naples or to the Bay of Genoa; with the consent of our
papers to which, at that conference, the plenipotentiary of great ally, we can send a French army to some part of Italy;
England had affixed his signature. The noble lord intro- and we may embark in a great struggle, the object of which
duced the question to us with business details which the will be entirely to change the phase of Italian life, to subvert
house clearly understood, and made us feel that- by the con- its Government, to emancipate—according to our views—its
duct of the English Minister at Paris, this country had people, and to effect a great revolution, which may, per-
entered into engagements, according to the version and haps, be accomplished after one of thoselong wars like the
interpretation of the noble lord, which had placed this Punic war, or the 30 years' war, or the French Revolution,
country in a position of grave responsibility. (Hear, or after one of those struggles which always occur when such
hear.) I cannot understand, from the observations of the immense consequences are aimed at and attained. On that
Minister who has just sat down that her Majesty's Minis- policy I will not presume to give an opinion, because I feel
tens have done, or are intending to do, anything which that it is a subject which would require a discussion wor-
the plenipotentiary of this country assumed on that occa- thy of its importance in this house before we embarked on
sion. (Hear, hear.) If all that the Ministry have done or it. I will make only one remark with regard to it, and I
intend to do are merely those routine representations to say, if that be the policy of the Government of this coun-
which the noble lord has just referred, and which he has try, they are bound frankly to announce it. (Hear,- hear.)
promised, it does not appear to me that, at a conference They are bound to submit such a policy to the consi lera-
celled to settle questions of a very different character, it was t ion of Parliament,• and if sanctioned and ratified by Par-
nee emery, or expedient., or politic, to have introduced the liameot, the people of this country will at least have the
question of It tly as it was introduced at Paris—(hear)—to satisfaction of knowing that they have not been drawn
have drawn up and signed these protocols, if all that has into a great struggle without being aware of it, and their
been done, or is to he done, is, in fact, merely that diplo- minds will be prep tied—as the minds of a nation ought to
nettle action which, As I humbly conceive, might have be prepared—for so great a struggle and so groat a stake,
taken place without so much ceremony, and without by those discussions in the house of their representatives
having, as the noble lord the member for London said, which will direct their attention to the great issue before
roused the passions of the population of Italy. (Hear.) I them. By this means they will be enabled to brace their
want to know what is the deduction we are to draw from energies to the occasion, and they will have no grounds for
the inquiries of one member of this house, who has been accusing the Queen's Ministers or their own representatives
First Minister of the country, and from the answer of ano- of haviug embarked in a conflict of such difficulty and du-
ther member of this house, -who is First Minister now, On ration without fair advice and warning. I think all hon.
a question that is indeed truly described as one interesting gentlemen will agree that if that be the policy of the Minis-
and important from its social character, but one in the try—that if they are prepared to go to war to emancipate
treatment of which are involved urgent, perhaps imme. Italy from Austrian rule, they art, at least bound frankly
hate, consequences to the people of this country—to the to explain their policy, to appeal to Parliament, and to
state of their industry and the state of their corn- take the verdict of the country upon its expediency. There
rnerce, the question of peace and war, and all the most is another practical mode by which you mayproceed to at-
vit al subjects that can possibly engage the atten- Lain s our °beet I remember at the end of the session of
Hoe of this house or the consideration of statesmen. 1818 it was my fate, a t has bee a the fate of the noble lord
(Hear, hear.) When I first, listened to the observe- to-night, to bring before the consideration of Parliament
tiers of the noble lord I thought he was about to counsel the question of interference in Italy. I have in my mind 'a
ac' ion of the most decisive and energetic character. The perfect recollection of the events which took place in 1847
noble lora said it was the duty of this country not to :than- and It-48, and although the noble lord may not condescend
don the affairs of Italy. He laid down that position with to profit by the experience of that adventure, I confess
the utmost precision. Now, I can hardly suppose that the myself that the consequences were so sad, and have been so
noble for by declaring that it was the duty of this coup- opposed in my opinion to the progress of Italy and to the
try not to abandon the affairs of Italy, could, after all that amelioration of the condition of Italian society, that I teem-
has occurred on the subject, have confined his meaning ble lest he should embark in a like enterprise again, andlest
merely to the communication of a note from a Minister to weishould reap from that conduct the same bitter and de-
the Court of Naples or of Turin. The noble lord, indeed, solating fruits. This leads me to thesecond practical means
stated there were circumstances which might demand the by which you may attempt to emancipate, as it is termed,
most decided conduct on the part of this country. He said, Italy. You may have diplomatic communications— you
if Austria, for example, required the suppression of the may have what you had in 1847—first friendly advice, and
liberty of the press on the part of Piedmont, then there is afterwards, what are called " admonitions " to the ruling
no step which he should not be prepared to take on such Powers ; and I have not the slightest doubt that without
an occasion. (Hear.) But, strange to say, the only formal declaring war and without the active co-operation of fleets
proposition that I find in the papers upon which the noble and armies, you may thus set a great portion of Italy in
lord founded all his observations—that for repressing the flames, and may reap consequences which we may all have
liVerty of the press—does not emanate from the Austrian deeply to deplore. (Hear) I will try for a moment to
Plenipotentiary, but from the representative of our great trace what would be your diplomatic action under that
ally, the Emperor of the French, by whose aid and whose second system upon Naples. But before I do that, there
aid alone these magnificent visions of Italian regeneration is one observation which I cannot help impressing on the
are to be realised. (Hear.) Now, sir, if I look to the house. The state of Naples is declared by Lord Clarendon
papers to which the noble lord has referred I find language to be so exceptional as even to justify the violation of the
of a very precise character upon the subject of interference. golden rule of foreign policy, viz., non-intervention. Now,
The house will recollect that when the protocols of the eon- it would be very desirable to have before us, on authority,
ferences at Paris were first laid on the table, it appeared some description by the Government of what the state of
that upon the Bth of April it was Count Walewski, the Naples is. I will for the moment assume that all those
French Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs who, when tales which have reached us of ruthless and savage im-
the treaty was signed for the settlement of the Eastern Prisonment are perfectly authentic ; but if authentic, they
question, and when all those points were arranged which are in all probability in a great degree the consequence of
had given rise to the conferences, introduced in a formal the panic-stricken councils of a small sovereign surrounded
manner to the consideration of the Plenipotentiaries TM' by jeal"usiee and difficulties fomented often and encou.
tions which had no immediate reference to the principal raged by foreign Powers. I will admit all we hear to be
cause, of their assembling. The house will recollect that, perfectly authentic—the ruthless imprisonments, and the
so far as the protocols would show us when they were laid cruel and even sanguinary punishments. Well, hut I re-
on our table, the responsibility of that introduction, which member a few years ago, when there were alleged against
many thought not very adroit, rested with the French Austria the same horrible stories of the imprisonment of
Minister. But there were subsequent papers placed on the citizens—the flower of the worth of Italy—in distant fort-
table of the house which throw considerable light upon ressos. (gear) Who has not heard of the names of men
this point, and proved that it was not Count Walewski in the highest walks of literature and science who have
who really was the cause of the subject being brought for- been the it-mates of Austrian dungeons? I don't know
ward. It was upon the Bth of April that Count Walewski, what were the par articular causes which induced those im-
after the settlement of the main question, said, prisonments. If I enter into that, I enter into the inter-
"lt was desirable that the Plenipotentiaries, before they nal administration of the country, and the principle of
separated, should interchange their ideas on different sub- non-intervention in foreign countries is much endangered;
jects whim required to be settled, and which it might be but I want to know what there is in the state of Naples
advantageous to take up in order to prevent fresh compli- more exceptional than there is in the case of Austria ; and
cations." Then Count Walewski went on with that remark. if the cruel impriSonment of citizens by a Sovereign is
able exposition—fresh, lam sure, in the memory of every considered so exceptional a thing as to permit the viola-
gentleman who hears me—in which he showed that Glom tion of the cardinal principle of our diplomacy, why do we
was in what is called an " abnormal stete," that the Roman not violate it in the instance of Austria? (Hear, hear,)
Legations were also in an "abnormal" condition, and that Why, when we hear of those dreadful banishments to
the affairs of Naples were not abnormal, but "exceptional." l Siberia with which hon. gentlemen are so familiar do we
(A laugh.) Now, when those papers were placed on the not consider that an exceptional case ; and what other
table, many gentlemen, while wondering at the indiscre- difference is there between Naples, and Austria' and Rue-
tion committed by Count Walewski, must have felt t,"4 , sic than this—that Naples is a weak Power and the others

are very powerful ones ? I would impress upon the •
house, therefore, that it should be very cautious upon
this bead. Now, let us see what will bo the action of the
second practical coutse in the case of Naples if we pursue
it. We determine not to go to open war to emancipate
Italy ; but still the condition of Naples is so intolerable
as to warrant interference though not in a military form.
Then, Sir, we have an admonition—England and France
publish an admonitory note to the King of Naples, and,
perhaps, an English fleet rides in the bay of Naples.
Every body knows what the consequence of that would be.
The instant that the discontented portion of the popula-
tion of that kingdom find that Naples has lost the good
offices of the Western Powers, that process takes place
which the noble lord has referred to—bands of the Italian
population are reused. They will reason thus. They
know well, when their own Sovereign is lectured by Eng-
land and France anti an English fleet is in the offing, that
if they rise, and rise successfully against their Sovereign,
Austria dare not interfere. I deny the proposition of the
noble lord, that an insurrection in Naples is a necessary
prelude to an Austrian occupation. If England and
France arouse the passions of the Italian population by
proclamation and by lecturing the King of Naples, and if
an English fleet is in the bay, Austria will not occupy
Naples. The noble lord who introduced this question
seems to think that there is no contest going on in Italy
but between worn-out dynasties, and some intelligent anti
well-educated persons of the superior classes, who desire
his great specific for all its evils—constitutional govern.
ment. I do not think that this is a true view of Italy.
(Hear, hear.) There is in Italy a power which we seldom
mention in this hone", but without considering and under-
lean/ eg which we shall never rightly comprehend the posi-
tion of Italy—l mean the secret societies. (Hear, hear.)
The secret sccieties do not care for constitutional govern-
ment. (Hear, hear.) They do not want existing society
ameliorated, they want it changed ; and the objects of that
change can neither be obtained nor secured by those en-
lightened institutions to which the noble lord refers. We
know something more of these societies than we
did. Since 1848 we have had means of obtaining a
knowledge of their numbers, organisation, principles,
and objects, and without some considerations of these
it would be absolutely impossible for us to form a
conception of what would be the consequence of our
interference in the affairs of Italy. It is useless to deny,
because it is impossible to conceal, that a great part of
'Europe—the whole of Italy and France and a great part of
Germany, to say nothing of other countries—are covered
with a network of these secret societies, just as the super-
ficies of the can th is now being covered with railroads.
And what are their objects? They do not attempt to con-
ceal them. They do not want constitutional government ;
they do not want ameliorated institutions ; they do not
want provincial councils nor the recording of votes—they
want to change the tenure of land, to drive out the present
owners of land, and to put an end to ecclesiastical esta-
blishments. Some of them may go further. Do you think
that, with their complete organisation, when Austria can-
not interfere to occupy the kingdom of Naples, when the
King is lectured on his throne by the Western Powers,
and when, as the noble lord says, the feelings of the people
are roused, these societies will be quiet ? (Hear.) We
know what they did before. Their energy and their orga-
nisation carried everything before them. lam told that

a British Minister has boasted—and a very unwise boast
it was—that by holding out his, hand he could raise a revo-
lation in Italy to-morrow. I believe it is not impossible,
with the means at his disposal, that be might. What
would happen? You would have a republic formed ou
.

extreme iiinciples, and there may be many intelligent
and well-meaning persons—l do not say in this house—
who would say, " And what then r "Nothing can be
worse," they would say, "than the presentstate of Italy;
let ns try u Re i Republic, or even a republic of a still
mote fiery colour." But the question of Italian politics is
not of that simple character. Rome is not far distant
from Naples. The passage from Naples to the States of
the Church is not difficult. You may have triumvirs
again established in Rome; the Pope may again be forced
to flee ; and my hon. friend behind me (01r. Spooner) maj
say, "So much the better"—(laughter)—and not a cardi-
nal may be left in Rome. What will be the consequences
•of that? The two great Catholic Powers of Europe-
France, whose Emperor boasts in these protocols of being
tit* eldest eon of the church—that ally with whose bene-
ficent co-operation Italy is to be emancipated—and Aus-
tria will pour her legions over the whole Peninsula. You
will have to withdraw the British fleet.; your admonitions
will be thrown into the mud (as they deserve), and
your efforts to free Italy from the occupation of foreign
troops will' terminate by rendering the thraldom a thousand
times more severe, and by aggravating the miseries of the un-
fortunate •people whose passions you have fired, and whose
feelings you have this night commenced to reuse. But
is, that all the evil?. If the movemoat which commenced at
the conferences at Paris is to to be followed up ; if the proto-
cols are to be suceeded by sperThes of the noble lord the
member fur Loudon while Parliament is sitting, and by ad-
monition and written lectures by cur foreign Ministers and
by our representatives abroad during the autumn, in all pro-
bability you will again have Italy in flames, and you will
again crush that progress which has been always going on in
time of peace, and when we meet again we may find the posi-
tion of the Peninsula infinitely worse. But do not suppose

that that is the whole of the evil. What I have said I Con-
sider—so far as the future can be certain—to be the certain
consequences of the policy which you are pursuing. What I
.am now going to refer to are merely possible results, but
they are results of so terrible a character tbat it is my duty
to refer to them, though I do so with reserve and some feel
ing of awe. The secret societies are not confined to Italy, as
I have ventured to remind the howl°. They are at this mo-
ment more numerous, more active, and in a higher state of
organisation in France than in any other State of &trope. If
Italy be in flames, if the Italian secret societies be successful,
do you think it will have no effect on the French societies ?
They are of course always in a state of excitement and ready
to ast upon every occasion. Parliament and the country
have confidence, and have justly confidence, in the character
of the great prince who now rules France. He is a man of
rare sagacity, he has been schooled in adversity, and he is a
man who is at this moment at the head of a numerous and
triumphant army devoted to him. You May therefore allow
Parliament to be prorogued with little fear as to the =lac-
(palaces to France of the system in which you are now about
to engage in Italy. But we all remember another great prince
who sat upon the French throne, whose sagacity during his
reign was also proverbial, who was never mentioned in this
house but in terms of panegyric on both sides of the house,
wile also had been schooled in adversity, and who was also
seconded by an army which he and his princes had
themselves formed; which was fresh and flitshe 1 with
victory, and which was led by great generals devoted to him,
and eager to prove their devotion by the assertion of his
rights and the maintenance of his throne. But that great
prince fell suddenly, and he fell solely and entirely by the
action of the secret societies. (Hear, hear.) That I apprehend
is a fact which no man acquainted with the events of 1843
will deny. No doubt that terrible catastrophe was assisted
by a great misfoitune which then occurred to France. In
1847, When a member of the British Cabinet (whose career I
have commemorated in this house already) was sent to give
advice and counsel to the Italian princes, there happened to
be a season of unexampled want in Europe, and especially in
France, At no time within the following yesr were the'
means of sustenance and of employing labour so deficient.
What is the condition of France at this moment ? A terribl3
visiSation has fallen upon that country. The, charity of more
than one nation and the admirable measures adopted by the
ruler of .France to mitigate the consequences of that visita-
tion may enable the next season to be passed without that
misery which fell upon the country in 1848. But the pros-
pect, in a material point of view, is very grave, and if you
commence another campaign Of Liberalism—the expression of
sympathy without being prepared to support it by acts—a
policy convenient for a Minister or a public man who wishes
to make a political demonstration, or to au ambitious mon-
arch who wishes to increase his territories, but one which a
wise Parliament will hesitate to sanction with its ratification
—if you once embark in this scheme of raising the passions
of the Italian population, as the best means of ameliorating
their condition and mitigating the politiFal evils of their
country; and if the consequ.aices of that policy should be
concurrent with a period of great agricultural distress in
France, it will require all the sagacity of the most sagacious
prince and all the resources of the army (however numerous
and however victorious) to guard against the danger; and
fortunite will itbe for Fi ance and for Europe if they escape the
most fatal results. I have touched upon these points be-
cause this is no holiday question. We are now ia the very
lees of the session, and this may probably be the last day on
which there will be assembled so large a number of members as
were present when the noble lord (Lord J. Russell) addressed
the house. The noble lord has commenced a course which, if
not watched with vigilance and care, may involve the coun-
try in proceedings the consequences of which it is difficult
to foresee. I certainly find encouragement in, the language
of the First Minister. Notwithstanding the proud protobol
of the Conferences of Paris ; notwithstanding this despatch
of the 27th of March from M. Cavour, which must have been
delivered behind the scenes, and which in the papers appears
as a speech of Lord Clarendon; notwithstinding all the details
of the protocols, it appears to be the calm, the well-con-
sidered, and the sot—irtermination of her Majesty's Minis-
ters to do nothing. (Hear, and a laugh.) I believe that the
noble lord, profiting by the past—(hear)—remembering his
experience of the years 1847 and 1848, has made up his mind
not again to be seduced into a position so difficult and so
, dangerous as that which he then encountered. I will also
say that I have such confidence in the wisdom of the Em-
peror of the French that I feel persuaded that, as regards the
affairs of Italy, heis of the same opinion and determination
as the noble lord the. First Minister. (A laugh.) I hope I
am not wrong in this anticipation, but it cannot be uuadvisa-
ble when such a subject as this is brought before the house
to meet it fairly in discussion. Let us not as on former occa-
sions be met with the poetry of po'itics. (Hear.) I can feel
for the condition of Italy as keenly as any gentleman in this
house, whether he be a First Minister or an ex-First. Minis-
ter. I hope and believe that the time will come when in
Italy there will be neither secret Societies nor *owned
despots ; but these are questions for the closet, not for a
practical and popular assembly. We have to deal with the
facts before us, and if we raise up an agitation against Ans•
trian rule without a distinct conception of the objects at
which we aim and the line Of conduct which we intend to
pursue, we shall be arresting the progress of Italy and
aggravating every misfortune which has been brought
under our notice. (Hear, herr.) It is impossible to
conceal the fact that the great power of Italy is Aus-
tria. Both the noble lords have admitted that, unless we
are prepared to enter into an internecine struggle with Aus-
tria, our object ought to be to render the s ustriap rule as
mild and beneficent as we can. At least we ought not to
encourage those who aro prepared to conspire against that
rule, but who .re prepared to do nothing else. I was in
Italy long before the affairs of 1848. The Government of
Austria was not that Italian Government which poets would
imagine in their dreams. It was notja!system of Govern-
ment under which Petra] chs were crowned with laurels in the
capitol, but it was distinguished from the other Governments
of Italy by an immense expenditure of Imperial—not Italian
—treasure upon great public works, by the light taxation of
the people, and by the progressive material improvement of
the country. That was something. It was good to have a
country wit t roads unrivalled, with means of communication
yearly increasing. That is not, it is true, the only object of
life, but I need not impress upon hon. gentlemen that mate-
rial comfort is a basis upon which you may, and in time pro-
bably will, establish civil and political rights ; that the richer
a people become the more anxious they are to guard that
wealth ; and that, whatever we may say of the Austrian rule,
it was, so far as Lombardy was concerned, a iule under whieh
at least the material character of the country was greatly im-
proved. I have not been in Lombard since that unfortunate
year, 1848, but I have heard that the picture of society is
now of a very different character. I hear that in consequence
of the affairs of 1818-taxes have greatly- increased, the public
works have been arrested in their progress, and that the ma-
terial development of the country has much diminished;
therefore by the course we took in 1818 we have not improved
the condition of Lombardy. That leads me to my last point,
our position with regard to Sardinia. (Hear.) The noble
lord the member for London (Lord J. Russell) laid it down as
a principle that, although= there may be in the treaty with
Sardin4 no 1 rmal stipulation that vs., will sup'pott that
con entry against other Powers, yet, after its allegiance to the
gnat alliance and all that has occurred since, we are bound
in honour to give it that support if it s'sould be atta• ked.
The noble lord the S'irst Minister (Lord Palmerston) seemed
not to question that position, but rather urged upon the at-
tention of the house that there wasno fear that Sardinia w 0 ald