The Sun.
London, England, 1869-07-07 00:00:00

IMPERIAL RAB,LI A PENT

HOUSE OF LORDS.—LAST EVENING.
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack
at five o'clock.

INDIAN FINANCE.

Tho Duke of ARGYLL gave notice that he should
make a statement relative to the finances of India on the
19th instant.

GAS BILLS.
The Imperial Gas Bill and the South Metropolitan Gas

Bill were read a third time and passed.
THE WESLEYANS IN IRELAND.
The Duke of ABERCORN called the attention of the

house to an outrage which had taken place in Ireland on
Sunday last, when a Wesleyan Methodist congregation
assembled in a gentleman's park were separated by a

Ibman Catholic mob in a most violent manner. He con-

sidered such a proceeding suggestive of what might be

expected from a free Protestant Church in Ireland. It

was not a case of Protestant ascendancy, or of titles

or endowments ; but here was a meeting of one
of the poorest, most modest, and least aggressive religious
body most unjustifiably interfered with. He wished to
know whether her Majesty's Government had received
any information on the subject, and, if so, whether he

could give it to their lordships.
Earl SPENCER said all the information in the posses-
sion of the Government was that an open air meeting of
Wesleyans was interrupted by the Roman Catholics.
Several of the offenders had been identified, and proceed-
ings would, of course, be taken against them.

THE IRISH CHURCH BILL.

Their lordships went into committee on this bill.

On clause 68 being moved,
Lord CAIRNS moved an amendment with a view of
altering the body by which the surplus fund was to be
appropriated. The bill set out that the Poor Law
Commissioners were to distribute the funds to the local
commissioners, and ho thought that such a provision was
entirely at variance with the proper functions of the Poor-
law Commissioners to call upon them to deal with six or
eight millions of money, and that entirely without the
slightest precaution being taken that they were compe-
tent to administer such a large fund properly. He thought
the mode proposed by the bill as it stood of dealing with
the surplus was very objectionable, and he therefore moved
the insertion of words to reserve the question of the ap-
propriation of the surplus be reserved for the future con-
sideration of Parliament.

Earl GRANVILLE would not willingly accept the pro-
posal of the noble lord. The house had already largely
trenched upon the surplus, but the Commissioners would by
the exercise of theirborrowingpowersrealizing a consider-
able portion within 18 months. He considered it would be
most unfortunate to hold the fund up as a bone of con-
tention to the whole of the United Kingdom for any length
of time. It would result in anything but peace and quiet-
ness to keep open a subject that had, after much discussion,
closed by the bill, and that that disturbed state of things
would not alone affect the Protestants, but the Roman
Catholics would feel the inconvenience of such a proviso
with equal inconvenience.
The Earl of MALMESBURY thought as the surplus
was at present somewhat of a myth, it was not too much
to ask that some further consideration should be had before
any determination was come to with regard to it. He did
not believe that any noble lord present would adopt such
a course of proceeding in their own private concerns,
and therefore he did not see why it should be
carried out in an Act of Parliament. All writers and
travellers in Ireland concurred in one thing, and that was
that if the Roman Catholic prests were better provided for
increased tranquility would be the result. (Hear.) I rnder
such circumstances if delay was granted it would give time
to consider whether concurrent endowment ought or
ought not to be made. (Hear, bear.) If the proposal of
his noble friend was accepted, he believed that the result
of the delay would be concurrent endowment, because he
did not see how the surplus could be more equitably dis-
posed after what had taken place during the debates that
had arisen:on the bill.

The Marquis of CLANRICARDE thought it a great
mistake to tie up the hands of Parliament and the Go-
vernment with respect to the surplus just at this particu-
lar moment. (" Hear, hear," from the Opposition.) As
the question of the surplus was involved in such obscu-
rity, he thought it would be wise to adopt the amendment
of the noble lord opposite.
Lord TAUNTON had felt a good deal of difficulty in
making up his mind on this important point. On the one
hand, he had felt the danger of keeping this question
dangling before the people for several years; but, on the
other hand, he feared that, in adopting the distribution
proposed by the Government, Parliament would be taking
a very unfortunate course. (Hear, hear.) He had given
a very cordial vote for the motion of the noble marquis
(Salisbury) to apply part of the surplus to the improvement
of the glebes of the Anglican clergy, and he had given a
still heartier support to the motion of his noble friend (the
Duke of Cleveland) to provide the Roman Catholic clergy
—the clergy of the great body of the Irish people—with
glebes and decent houses. (Cheers.) The situation in
which the question was now place filled him with
alarm, for he felt that their lordships were sending the
bill back to the House of Commons altered in respect
of giving greater advantages to the clergy of the Esta-
blished Church, with whom personally they naturally
sympathised, but stripped of a proposal which would have
given glebes to the Roman Catholic priests. (Hear, hear.)
Now, he was strongly of opinion that if Parliament wished
to obtain the affections and secure the tranquillity of the
great body of the Irish people, it should lose no fitting
opportunity of improving the position of their clergy, and
of thus showing respect for that religion to which they
were so firmly attached. (Cheers.) Nor was that class
of men unworthy of consideration. His personal ac-
quaintance with Ireland was confined to a single year, but
that year was a very remarkable one, for it was the period
of the famine. As Secretary for Ireland he was in Dublin
during the whole of that year, and never did a day pass
without his room being crowded with Roman Catholic
priests, who described to him the dreadful state of their
parishes and asked his advice and assistance. Very often—a
sight he was very glad to witness—they came had in hand
with the Protestant clergymen of the same parishes, and he
was able to supply them with means of relief out of the

funds placed at his disposal by the profuse but insufficient
liberality of the British people. Ile had never omitted the
opportunity of expressing his hope that they would do their
part in calming the minds of their flocks ; and in assuring
them of the heart-felt sympathy of the Government ; and ho
was bound to say that the conduct of the Roman Catholic
priesthood during that crisis was most exemplary.
(Hear, hear.) Knowing the heroic sacrifices they then
made in every part of Ireland, and how they threw away
theirown lives in standing by their flocks in the hour of
trial, he was not surprised at their hold on the affections
of the Irish peeple. Now, the people of Ireland would
not go into nice calculations, and it was necessary to
speak in loud and distinct tones if Parliament wished
them to believe in a real change of policy, and to see
that it was desirous of doing them justice. Nothing
would speak so strongly and effectually to them as a
manifestation of sympathy and respect for their priest-
hood, by providing them with decent houses side by side
with those of the Protestant clergymen. (Cheers.) He
deeply regretted, therefore, the defeat of a proposal
which would have given to the Roman Catholic and
also the Presbyterian clergy improved sustenance and
support by means of glebes and houses. (Cheers.) He
was not as sanguine as some noble lords that if they post-
poned the consideration of this question they might not
incur dangers and difficulties—and to his mind they were
no slight ones—from throwing this subject loose upon the
country, and he was not so sanguine that at the end their
lordships would find themselves any better off. (Hear,
hear.) He regretted it, but he must do the best he could.
If it were in ordinary cases to follow the maxim
"Et mihi res, non me rebus, submittere conor,"
in matters connected with religion it was especially neces-
sary. Under these circumstances, placed in a difficulty,
as he felt himself to be, he should vote against the amend-
ment of the noble and learned lord. (Hear, hear.) He was
most anxious that this controversy with the other house
should be closed, Their lordships had already made very
important alterations iu the bill. He had no doubt that
the other house would view those alterations fairly and
dispassionately, and would endeavour to see whether they
could not be taken in accordance with those principles
which underlay the whole bill ; but he could not conceal
from himself, from indications he had seen of the temper
of the House of Commons, that the probability was that
they would not pass. (Hear, hear.) He thanked their
lordships for the attention with which they had heard him.
He had been anxious to state the grounds on which he
should vote, but he confessed that he had not arrived at
the conclusion to which he had come without some hesita-
tion. (Hear, hear.)
The committee divided, and the numbers werel6o
For the amendment
90
Against it ..............
—7O
Majority against
The amendment was therefore carried, and the clause,
as amended, agreed to.
On clause 69,
The Bishop of OXFORD proposed to add a proviso
retaining to the ordained clergy of the Irish Church the
same status and privileges as the clergy of the Episcopal
Church of Scotland.
On the suggestion of Lord CAIRNS, this question was
postponed until the report.
The other clauses, which relate to the interpretation
of terms and other technical matters, were then agreed to.
The postponed clauses were then taken.
On clause 19,
Lord CAIRNS proposed to add a power to the Esta-
blished Church to meet in convocation or general assem-
bly representing the clergy and laity of the several dio-
ceses, for the purpose of re-organising the Church before
the time for disestablishnient arrived.
After some discussion the amendment, with a slight
verbal alteration, was adopted, and the clause agreed to.
On clause 20,
The Archbishop of DUBLIN moved an amendment
that no alteration in the doctrines or formularies of the

disestablished Church should be binding on any ordained
minister who had expressed his dissent within six months.
The LORD CHANCELLOR thought that the amend-
ment would be an invitation to schism and dissent, and
hoped that in the interests of the Church itself it would
not be pressed.
The amendment was agreed to after some discussion,
and the clause as amended added to the bill.

Clauses 21 and 22 were agreed to, with some verbal
amendments at the suggestion of Lord Cairns, who, how-
ever, reserved an important one for the report.
On the preamble, Lord Cairns moved an amendment to
bring it into harmony with his alteration of the 68th
clause, reserving the surplus for the future appropriation
of Parliament.
The preamble was then agreed to, and the bill passed
through committee, and was ordered to be reported can
Friday.
The other business having been disposed of, the house
adjourned.