The Sun.
London, England, 1860-02-17 00:00:00

was intense ; and the affair ended in a fight between them
and the authorities of the Crew, to which the man belonged.
It had been stated that the first American frigate which
took a prize from us in the late war was manned almost en-
tirely by English deserters ; and that these men all the time
loved their country as much as ever, but that they had been so
disgusted by the barbarities of the service that there were no
lengths to which they were not prepared to go in order to
show their hatred of the system. The principal offences for
which sailors could be floged were drunkenness, absence
without leave, insubordination, dirtiness, neglect of duty,
telling untruths, theft, smoking at a man's post, fight-
ing, &c. Was it right that a brave fellow should have his
back flayed for such offences as some of those ? Why, it was
one of the greatest qualities a seaman could possess to be
always ready for a fight. (Hear, hear.) Was it to be en-
dured that men to whom the country owed so much of its
greatness should be subjected to such treatment because a
number of old gentlemen—with the bestintentions no doubt
—could not find room far any ideas but such as were in vogue
50 years ago, when their ships were manned by means of
the press-gang ? (Hear, hear.) For several years past he
had moved, for a series of returns relating to this subject,
and he now proposed to add to them a new feature, which
was the name of the captain of each ship in which men were
flogged. (Hear, hear.) He would tell the house why he did
this. For two years the noble and gallant officer (Lord C.
Paget) had commanded in the Princess Royal. lv otwith-
standing the high state of discipline and efficiency to which
he brought the crew, he had never flogged a man (Loud
cheers.) Well, he was succeeded by a man who flowed 53,
on whom he inflicted no fewer than 2,100 lashes. Having
stated that fact in the house, he (Mr. Williams) received a
letter from .a gallant admiral assuring him that he must*
have made same mistake, for no man had a higher character
for humanity than Capt. Bailey, who was then commanding
the ship. Accordingly he (Mr. Williams) made further in-
quiries, and at length hd ascertained that the captain who
had flogged 53 men was one who came between the noble
lord and Capt. Bailey. (Hear.) To prevent mistakes of that
kind, which might be very prejudicial to the characters of
meritorious officers, he should propose the addition he lad
named. (Hear, hear.) This year more than £500,000
had been expended in bounties, and though the noble lord
said that the Government had obtained 10,000 men, it did
not appear that more than 1,600 of them were able sea-
men. Let them only abolish flogging and he had no doubt
that they would get without difficulty as many of the sort
they wanted as they pleased. fllear, hear.) The hon gentle-
man concluded by moving for the following return :—Re-
turn of the number of men flogged in the army and militia
in the year 1859, specifying the offence, the regiments, the
place of station, the time, the sentence, and the number of
lashes inflicted on each man (in continuation of parliamen-
tary paper, No. 519, of session 1858) ; also, return of the
number of persons flogged in the navy in the year 1859, spe-
cifying the name of the ships and of the commanding offi-
cers, the offence, the sentence, and the number of lashes
inflicted on each person, stating whether by order of court-
martial or the commanding officer (in continuation of Par-
liamentary paper, No. 41, of session 1859).
Mr. BRISTO WE, in seconding the motion, remarked
on the anomaly which existed between our civil and our
military
.jurisprudence. The ordinary tribunals of the
country inflicted the same penalty for the same offence,
whoever the culprit might be ; but in the army and navy
there was one law for officers and another for men. (Hear.)
If at a time like the present, when we were endeavouring
to make the army an 4 navy efficient, and if possible to
popularise them—if at such a time the returns quoted by his
hon. friend be true, he asked was that the means to obtain
the increased number of men asked for for both services ?
Another paradox in the system was this—What was there
in the character of an Englishman so degraded that this
punishment must be inflicted upon him, while there was
no such thing as flogging in the French army? (Hear,
hear.) He remembered last year asking a French officer if
there was any flogging in the French army, and that offi-
cer's reply was, "Neither the French men nor the French
soldiers aro brutes." (Hear.) He did say that the time
was come when this punishment, degrading alike to the
person who ordered it, the person who administered it, and
the person who received it, should be entirely done away
with.
The question having been put,

.. _ .
Col. NORTH said he should like to ask the hon. mem•
ber for Lambeth whether he had taken the trouble to aster•
tain if the statements ho had made to the house were cor•
rest ?

Mr. WILLIAMS--Yes.
Col. NORTH continued—Because he recollected that in
1855 and 1856 the hon. member made a most serious charge
against the officers of the 26th Regiment, but made that
charge in such a manner that he (Col. North) had no hesi-
tation in contradicting him, and the following day he had
a letter from the commanding officer of the regiment, stating
that there was not one word of truth in the charge. What
made him (Col. North) rise on that occasion was that the
hon. member for Lambeth had introduced the name of Col.
Talbot, of the Artillery. He could tell the hon. member
that it was not in the power of Col. Talbot to remit the pun-
ishment inflicted on that occasion by one single lash. Un-
der these circumstances it was perfectly intolerable that a
member should get up in that house, and thus brand an
officer of the army, without ascertaining whether his
charges were true or false. The only man who had the
power to remit one lash of the'pnnishment awarded was the
surgeon of the regiment. The hon. member had also made
several other statements. All that he (Col. North) could
say was that a more painful duty could not devolve upon
any officer than that of being obliged-to superintend the
punishment of the lash. With regard to flogging on board
ship, the hon. member said that in such cases all the civilians
on board were ordered off the quarter-deck ; but did he sup-
pose that any civilian would be pleased to stand by and
witness such a punishment f He could tell the hon. member
on the part of the army that if he or any other civilian
would introduce any other punishment which would be
safer, and restore the soldier in the shortest time to duty,
he would be hailed as a benefactor to the whole army.
(Hear.) Tho hon. member who seconded the motion stated
that there was no flogging in the French army. Did he in-
quire how crime wag punished in the French army ? If ho
had ho would find that for what wo flog the French shoot.
(Hear.) When ho
-was in Paris last autumn he went one
day to Versailles, and he there found that that day two men
had been shot for knocking down a non .commissioned offi-
cer. In the Prussian army, also, the punishment was very
severe, a common punishment being to put a man in a room
so small that he could not stand upright, where ho was left
all day and only taken out at night.
Alderman SALOMONS, while admitting that every
officer who was obliged to inflict the punishment of flogging
must feel that he was performing a very disagreeable duty,
felt bound to corroborate the statements of his hon. friend
the member for Lambeth as to the painful sensation that
was created by the floggings at Woolwich.
Lord C. PAGET said he had no objection to the returns
moved for by the hon. member for Lambeth provided he
left out the names of officers who he said had inflicted cor-
poral punishment. (Hear, hear.) That punishment was
one of the most painful duties which any officer could be
called upon to witness, but he felt bound to say it conld
not be at present suddenly and wholly done away with.
The hon. member had quoted him as an officer who did not
flog, but he could assure him that he was not the man to
shrink from flogging if he thought it necessary. The hon
member had also stated that the Admiralty could not get
the number of seamen which they wanted. He (Lord C.
Paget) would correct him. Last year upwards of 10,000
men entered, of whom above 4,000 were able-bodied sea-
men. (Hear, hear.) He could state, moreover, that out of
the whole fleet there was only 3 per cent. of desertions.
(Hear, hear.) He told the hon. member last year that the
Articles of War as they now stood were not in accordance
with the spirit ofthe presentage. The Government had it in
view to bring in a bill this year that would make those arti-
cles more in accordance with the present age. (hear.)
Mr. ROEBUCK thought the hon. and gallant member
(Colonel North) spoke• of the hon. member for Lambeth in
a rather angry mood because ho brought forward this mo-
tion. Now, it seemed to him (Mr. Roebuck) a wise thing
and a good thing to bring this motion forward, because it
was not done in a spirit of animosity to the officers of the
army or navy, they. acted under compulsion, and this mo-
tion only asked for inquiry. (Hear, hear.) He remembered
the time when a man was good for nothing else they
hanged him, and no class of the community was so eager for
}hanging as the judges. (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) It ap-
peared to him that these :earned persons were utterly mis-
taken, and that the authorities of the army were not in-
fallible. All they asked for waa an inquiry whether certainty
of punishment would not answer all the effect of this violent
and degrading punishment. This punishment had not only
an effect on the victim, but on society around, and he asked
if it was not the duty of persons in authority seriously to
inquire whether they could not do away with the punish-
ment ? The noble lord said he was about to bring in a reform
of the code of the navy, and he gave them to hop. that in
that reformed code there would be a great diminution of this
punishment. He was sorry to see the noble lord now shake
his head, and to dissipate that anticipation, but be would
tell him that his new code would do no good unless this
dreadful punishment was diminished, because he was sure
that no man after being flogged was an equal man to what
lie was before. (Hear.) He could not believe that a soldier
or sailor would fight for honour or his country with the same
spirit after he had been flogged as he would before, They
were told that it was absolutely necessary to flog boys at
school, and there were people who were se obtuse as to believe
that their children were all the better fcr being flogged. Now
he was quite sure that flogging at schools was most injuri-
ous, and if they were to do away with it there it would not
continue long in the army and navy. The noble lord said it
had been his good fortune to command ships in which he
had officers and men who rendered it unnecessary to inflict
this punishment. Yes, it was the officer's manner of guid-
ing his men that determined this. Wherever they found a
regiment or a ship in which there was much flogging, de-
pend upon it the officer was not fit for his command. The
man who inflicted that punishment showed his incapacity
to govern.
Mr. C. BUXTON said he had thought of bringing for-
ward a substantive motion, but be thought it inconvenient
to have two debates on the subject, and .as he understood
that his hon. friend intended to take a division he hoped that
that expression of the opinion of the house on the subject
would be sufficient. There was scarcely a refOrm that had
boon effected in the army or navy that had not been effected
against the opinion of the military and naval authorities.
To whom did they owe the reduction of lashes from 1,000 to
50? T. whom did they owe the abolition of the' ight dress,
and, as they hoped, the abolition of the tight stock ? Not to
the military authorities, but to public opinion. The new
orders on the subject of flogging were very far indeed from
abolishing that punishment. He found by thesenew orders
that in the army there were still no fewerthan ten offences,
chiefly infractions of discipline, on the first commission of
which a man was to be degraded into the seccnd class, and
once in that class he might be flogged for the commission
of any ono of these offences. As to the navy, he found that
every man, whether he belonged to the first'or second class,
was still liable to be flogged; the main difference was that
if he belonged to the first class he must be tried by court
martial,. whereas if he belonged to the second he was liable
to be flogged at the pleasure of the captain. It seemed to
him astonishing that one of our countrymen should be liable
to this terrible punishment at the will of a naval captain.
'rhis punishment made the army and navy an unpopular
service among the working classes of this country. They
had a coninnssion last autumn to inquire how it was they
could not get men for the navy, and the noble lord who had
jusi• spoken told them the other night of the difficulty of
getting men to juin the naval reserve, and said the men were
afraid of being kidnapped into the navy. How was it ? No
private skipper had any difficulty in finding men, nor had
any private employer of labour, not even a scavenger or a
sweep, any difficulty in getting workmen ; but there was
one service that men would not go into, and that was the
Queen's service, because of this degrading punishment; and
they found it almost impossible to till up the ranks, and had
had to spend half a million within the last few months to
ii no
gd udcoosino
description
ooifnt.he rrshuefreh,o.inng. meeeemsbeedrbty tihenogrgeaiodga, harrow-
by. Alexander So nerville, who was sentenced written
t tre-
ceive 200 lashes. He became black in the face and water
was administered to him, and then the flogging recom-
inencel, and was continued until he wascovered with blood
and he writhed with agony. and it appeared to
him as if the time when he had lived without
this pain had passed long away. When 100 lashes had been
inflicted he was taken down, being unable to bear more.
1e hon, member proceeded to say that the punishment was

much aggravated when it was inflicted in cold weather, and
he related an instance of its being inflicted on a man when
the day was so cold: that the mere stripping and exposing
him to the cold was of itself a severe punishment. At the
first lash the blood spurted out some yards. That man after-
wards shot himself. His own feeling was that such a punish-
ment as that was a brutal punishment. (Hoar, hoar.) To
strip a man half naked, and tie him up by the arms and
legs and flog him until the blood streamed down, was a
punishment so degrading and cruel that nothing could
justify it but strong necessity ; and it ought to be abolished
unless it could be proved that abolishing it would cause a
relaxation of discipline ; and the onus pro&andi ought to be
on those who were in favour ef the punishment. But there
was nothing he had heard to-night that proved that its
abolition would have such a result. When they looked to
the continent of Europe, what army was it that they should
at once look to as having. the highest discipline ? The
French army ; and yet there was no flogging in that army.
The Prussian army had been referred to. On one occasion
the Duke of Wellington was asked which European army
he would prefer commanding, and he said the Prussian
army, because it was most easily managed. But there was
no flogging in the Prussian army. The German Legion
raised for the Crimea was remarkable for its discipline, and
there was no flogging in it. But in the armies of Russia
and Austria the use of the lash was incessant, and in those
armies it was most difficult to maintain discipline. The
lash had of late years, it could not be denied, been more and
more disused in the army, yet the character of the army was
never higher than at present. There was, indeed, an ex-
ception in late days—plenty of flogging on board the Prin-
cess Royal, but it ended in mutiny. lie was glad to say, for
the sake of humanity and civilisation, that this brutal
mode of punishment was getting into disuse, and that in 67
regiments and 43 ships containing 6,000 men, there had not
been a single case of flogging. (Hear, hear.) He did not
see how any hon, gentleman who advocated the flogging
system could get over this striking and authentically as-
certained fact. The principle was now clearly established,
that it was not by any violence of punishment they could
achieve real discipline in the services, but in that sort of
punishment which harmonised with public opinion and
public feeliag. That mode of treatment was best which
treated the offender not os a brute but as a man, and which
made allowance for that degree of infirmity which belonged
to human weakness. (Hear.) It could not be denied but
that of late years punishments had assumed a much milder
form, but they were not on that account the less effectual.
When once a man was flogged he felt that he was de-
graded ; and those who inquired into these matters knew
that a man, by such a mode of punishment, in most cases
lost his self-respect, and was, to use the phrase of a soldier
whose letter the hon. gentleman quoted, " done for," hip
character being looked upon thereafter as hopeless. (Hear.)
The hon. gentleman also quoted a communication from a
soldier experienced in his profession, who declared that he
had never known but oue instance in which a man who had
been flogged recovered his self-respect. Besides, it was
plain that the punishment, cruel and ignominious as it
was, repelled men from the Queen's service, and upon
the whole he thought that the authorities must by this
time be able to see that a milder form of punishment would
be quite as effectual, without entailing any of the degrada-
tion or loss of self-respect with which the present system
was almost invariably accompanied.
Mr. S. HERBERT could not say they were proceeding
in a very philosophical manner with this discussion, and
was of opinion they were confounding different kinds of
punishment. In England more than in any continental
state the army was severed from social ties by its being so
much on foreign service, and, moreover, in this country it
should be borne in mind there was a great jealousy of mili-
tary authority. (Hear.) In Prussia and Austria the case
was different, but in England it was plain the military could
not be permitted to override the civil power. Another re-
markable difference between the army of England and that
of its nearest neighbour was the absence of conscription, In
England they teak the men as they chose to enlist—wild
and untutored—but having got them thus promiscuously
together, it was necessary to exercise more stringent rules
than over civilians. He (Mr. Herbert) was no advocate for
flogging. (Cheers.) lie had never been an advocate for
corporeal punishment unless where it was absolutely neces-
sary. He had not been favourable to its use as it had been
carried on (Hear, hear.) He was opposed to its revival
under the brutal ferocity with which in days gone by it had
been exercised—(hear hear)—and he was glad to see that
public opinion had outlived the belief in the necessity of
this cruel punishment. It had been said that soldiers were
treated much worse than civilians. He had applied to the
Home Secretary for returns on the subject. It was not
fact, as had been argued, that flogging was quite an excep-
tional, unknown, and intolerable punishment inflicted upon
soldiers alone, for it was inflicted upon civilians also. It
had even been proposed in that house not long ago to apply
it to men for beating their wives ; but there were many
felonies which, as the law at present stood, were punishable
by whipping. It might be said that those laws were not
now practically put in force, but what was the actual amount
of corporeal punishment inflicted on civilians ? In England
and Wales the number of males above 20 years of age sen-
tenced by courts of assize or sessions to be whipped in 1858
was 83. The number sentenced to be whipped upon sum-
mary conviction by justices in that year was 502. Of these
472 were under the Juvenile Offenders' Act, but the residue
was not so; they were persons convicted of aggravated
assaults, wilful damage, snd other offences. Now, he did
not say it was right that the punishment of whipping
should thus be inflicted for such offences in civil life, but the
fact was so. He had said that the army, raised by volun-
tary enlistment, as he had described, was composed of
peculiar elements, which made it necessary to provide a
punishment of a more rapid and stringent character. It
should be remembered that as these men had a deadly
weapon put in their hands their turbulence was far more
dangerous than that of civilians. He had received a
letter from the head police magistrate of an important town
which he would not name, some passages of which might
be read to show the house what that gentleman's observa-
tions and opinions were about the habits of the kind of men
who wore drawn by enlistment into our army, and the salu-
tary effect of discipline upon them. The writer of that
letter remarked There can be no doubt the army had
done much for society as a reformatory institution. I am,
I believe, in one of the principal recruiting districts here,
and although we constantly see loose, idle, drunken, and
dishonest characters coming before us for military attesta-
tion, we scarcely ever find them, after a period of service,
lapsing into their former habits. The county and city re-
giments of militia, on their first embodiment, almost emptied
the town of the description of persons to which I allude.
On their return after the peace, I saw scarcely one of them
who had not been greatly reformed, and there are many
of them now pursuing a steady and industrious career.
These were 'reflections which had often occurred to himself
(Mr. S. Herbert) in looking at the raw material of which
the army was composed, and then looking at the effect
which that discipline, of which corporeal punishment was a
very small portion, produced upon them. For his own part,
he believed it was possible to reform boys and children, but
he did not believe in the reformation of adult criminals or con-
victs to any extent, for he had seen, in his own walk of
life, several men of bad character and disposition, and he
did not recollect that he had ever seen ono of them reformed.
But it could not be denied that the system of army discipline
did succeed in improving the conduct of men who were sub-
jected to it. (Hear, hear.) Now, the hon. gentleman last
year alludei very properly to the increase of corporal punish-
ments which he had observed in these returns, lie (Mr. S.
Herbert) must admit that there had been to his mind a much
greater increase than there ought to be, but when the amount
of punishments in 1847 was compared with that of 1858, it
should be remembered that our army had been very nearly
doubled since that period. He acknowledged, however, that
the amount per cent. had increased to a very alarming ex-
tent, and what was the cause of it ? It would be found on
looking back to those years in which the amount of corporeal
punishment was greatest, that whenever we made a great
effort to increase our army, and brought in a large number of
recruits—men of that idle, dissipated class to which he had
alluded—there was a great deal of insubsrdination and crime,
and consequently a great deal of punishment. One effect
of the increased bounty system last year was to increase the
offence of desertion for re-enlistment, in consequence of
which corporeal punishment had been, for the first time,
applied to desertion, and had proved to be some check upon
it. He did not attach much importance generally to the
harrowing descriptions which were sometimes read. Alex-
ander Somverille, whom he (Mr. Sidney Herbert) in after
life had the pleasure of knowing, was punished when in the
army, but was not degraded by that punishment, for, on the
contrary, it put him in a position from which, by his great
literary talent, he raised himself considerably in the social
scale. He (Mr. Sidney Herbert) had always thought that
case of Somerville's a very bad one, but he could assure
those who read his account of it that it was a considerable
exaggeration of the facts as they really took place; and, in-
deed, ho was quite aware that writers for the press must
paint vividly and colour very highly in describing such
matters. In a recent case upon which much comment had
been made, he at once thought the medical officer who said
the man was fit for punishment was greatly to blame. The
Commander in-Chief was not in England at that time, but
upon his return his attention was called to it, and th e
Duke of Cambridge did all that man could do in the ease ;
he ordered an inquiry, datisffed himself that there had been
misconduct, and then severely and publicly reprimanded
those concerned. As a result, moreover, of the considera-
tion then given to this matter, the Commander-in-Chief
issued the general order which had been adverted to. He
(Mr. Sidney Herbert) would now invite the attention of the
house to the terms of that order. lie wished to see corporeal
punishments reduced to a minimum; and as formerly the
most brutal and degrading punishments were inflicted in civil
life, until public opinion put them down, he hoped that
the system o f military punishment, at a certain interval,
would follow the same course of improvement. (Hear, hear.)
But by the new general order, with regard to a number of
offences which under the old system were visited with the
lash, it had now been declared that a man should not be
flogged for any one of them ; and that was a great step.
Moreover, the respectable, steady, and well-conducted sol-
dier, of whom there were so many in our ranks, might not
feel, as lie had a right to feel, that he had a perfect impunity
from degrading punishment whatever he might do, except,
of course, in such a case of instant mutiny as must be re-
pressed by any and every means. By the system estab-
lished under this general order soldiers could not be flogged
unless by previous misconduct of a very disgraceful kind
they had subjected themselves to removal into the second
class ; and when they were in the second class it did not
follow that they were to be flogged, but only for such of-
fences as desertion, mutinous behaviour, aggravated in-
subordination with violence, drunkenness on the line of
march, embezzling public money, theft, indecent assaults,
and other acts showing vicious and unnatural propensities.
Even the men who had fallen into the second class could,
by uninterrupted good conduct for a twelvemonth, restore
themselves to the first class, where they would, except in
most extreme cases, be exempt from corporal punishment.
Now, he (Mr. S. Herbert) said that this general order was
a wise and humane one, the adoption of which did the
Commander-in-Chief the greatest credit. It had been said
that every improvement in the army came from civilians,
and not from military omen. That was not always true;
for, in justice to a deceased friend, he m u. st again declare
that, so far from the Enfield rifle having been forced upon
Lord Hardiuge by public opinion, Lord Harding° had
directed his attention to it long before. And in this in-
stance, it was the Duke of Wellington who reduced corpo-
ral punishment to 50 lashes. (Hear, hear.) Now, with
l*Cf.`,l,r(l to the motion, the hon. gentleman was welcome to
1
have the papers he asked fbr ; the War-office and Cone.
mander-in-Chief ha I nothing to conceal in this matter. But
he was anxious that the house and the public should not ho
run away with by a mistaken idea about this punishment.
Of course it was not a very humane ono ; he never heard of
such a thing as a humane punishment; fur all punishments
give sonic pain either of body or of mind, and it was diffi-
cultslmucht ethe could
r es
as
to see which caused men to suffer moat. All
state was. that there would no objection to giving
ttirns asked for, els the Commander-in-Chief, a
any man, wished, though gradually, to lessen corporal
hment • and he had given a sincere earnest of his punmsiii.
tendon in the new regulation. He hoped the how, and
the country would leave the question in hie hands, as he
waswell ah'e to deal with it, without risk to or the shaking
of the di,ciplino of the arn4y, or making the army less pre--
teotivo to the public. (Hear.)
Ale. E. JAMES said the cause of humanity was greatly
eg ip,
indebted to the hon. member for Lambeth fox twinging for-
ward this motion. Ho tkoncilst lae wait lustifi saying

that hardly an instance could be found in which, during the
last ten years, a judge had ordered an adult to be flogged.
It might be ordered sometimes in the case of boys. He ob-
jected to this degrading punishment, and it was inflicted in
the army for merely venial offences. It was well known
that the system of flogging in the army caused desertion ;
and he remembered the Hounslow case, where the soldier
died, and out of six who were present four afterwards de-
serted. Instead, therefore, of being a specific against de-
sertion, it prevented enlistment and caused desertion. He
should support the motion ; but he objected to the publica-
tion of the names of persons who discharged their duty in
carrying out what was the fault of a system. (Hear.)
Sir C. NAPIER said he could not as a naval officer emit
to express his opinion on flogging in the navy. He was the
first person who called the attention of the house to the hor-
ribly barbarous Articles of War. True he was reproved by a
late First Lord of the Admiralty for stating that no man in
his opinion should be punished without a court-martial,
and he thought so still. He had been the first to put a stop
to flogging round the fleet. (Hear, hear.) Although such
was his opinion, yet he believed the system could not sud-
denly be departed from. What punishment could be found
to take its place in cases of mutiny and insubordination ?
The infliction of the punishment was as painful to the man
who performed the duty as the criminal. (Laughter.) If
it were stopped the discipline of the service could not be
carried on. (Oh, oh.) If a man committed a crime on board
a ship, the captain ought to have him tried by court-martial
before any punishment were inflicted, and that would give
satisfaction to the ships' companies. The captain should be
the judge, and never be present at the execution of the sen-
tence, and when he saw and looked on at the punishment he
must be considered a brute and a beast. He hoped the ses •
sion would:not be allowed to pass over without the Govern-
ment bringing forward some new law for the better regula-
tion of the navy, in which the crimes would be pointed out
and the punishments to be inflicted properly stated. He
begged to state that desertion was much less less frequent
than it was, although it was reported to be on the increase.
The Goveanment ought to try and put a stop to the leave-
breaking, which prevailed at all seaports. (Hear.)
Captain L. VERNON was very loath to continue the
debate, but he thought the house would ,excuse a few prac-
tical observations from a practical man on the subject under
discussion. Those who belonged to the service ought to be
very much obliged to the hon. member for Lambeth fa
bringing the question forward, because they were glad to
have daylight let in from any quarter. He wished to im-
press upon the house the fact that those who belonged to the
service were not naturally cruel men ; their feelings were the
same as other men. But those who went to sea and fol-
lowed the drum were not always the best conducted menin
the world. But what were they controlled by? Discipline and
the articles of war and the fear and dread of punishment.
If the majority were against him he would take their opinion
in preference to his own. (A laugh.) Discipline was re-
quired for everything. He saw a soldier shot in the West
Indies for doing that for which, if brought before a justice of
the peace, he would only have been fined 10s., but the regi-
ment be belonged to had got nearly into a state of mutiny,
and he had struck his adjutant. Sir Lionel Smith called the
regiment together, and addressed them on that occasion. He
said that it was a hard thing for an old man to send a young
man so soon out of the world, but that though he was an
old man he was not an old woman, and that so long as her
Majesty entrusted him with the command of the regiment
he must enforce discipline. Again, the Royal African
corps, which was tormed in a hurry, mutinied, in conse-
quence of the want of discipline, nearly all died, and half
the officers were killed. They did not want flogging, or
any other very severe punishment, but they wanted discip-
line, without which the army was not worth sixpence.
Mr. WYLD said that if the degrading punishment of
flogging were swept away, the sons of respectable persons
would join the army and navy, instead of as at present
holding aloof from those services.
Mr. FREELAND appealed to Mr. Williams to leave
out the names of individual officers from the return, stat-
ing that if he did so he would give him his vote.
Mr. WILLIAMS replied, and deelined to accede to the
request of Mr. Freeland, on the ground that without the
names of the officers the return would be worthless.
The first part of the resolution relating to the army was
then agreed to.
The SPEAKER having put the second part to the house,
Lord C. PAGET moved that the words " or the com-
manding officer" be left out.
The house then divided, on the original motion, when
the numbers were—

Ayes
Noes
Majority
The motion as amended, by striking out the words
" and of commanding officers," was then agreed to.
CIVIL SERVICE APPOINTMENTS.

Mr. HENNESSY moved for a select committee to in-
quire into the present mode of nominating and examining
candidates for junior appointments in the civil service,
with a view to ascertaining whether greater facility might
not be afforded for the admission of properly qualified per-
sons. He believed the whole system of nomination for the
civil service was in a most unsatisfactory state, and that in
some respects we were in a worse position than we were
before the civil service examination was instituted. For
his own part he had no doubt it would materially increase
the efficiency of the civil service if it were thrown open to
free competition.
Mr. STEUART seconded the motion.

Mr. P. O'BRIEN thoughtthe question was one well de-
serving the attention of the house. He believed the manner
in which the civil service examinations were conducted was
generally deplored throughout the country.
Mr. LAING said that he did not think the time had yet
arrived when an inquiry of this kind could be entered upon
with any hopes of a satisfactory result. At the present mo-
ment the only practical instance we had of the complete
working of the system of competitive examination for the
civil service was in the empire of China ; but he must say he
believed there were many arguments in favour of the system.
In his opinion it was a subject of considerable apprehension
whether the effect on the national character would be good
if the youths educated in our public schools were able to
look at an early period of life to snug places in the Excise
and Ottstoms, instead of being forced out into the world,
Where' after, perhaps, passing through a rough ordeal, they
might rise to stations much higher. This was an impor-
tant consideration, and he threw it out to show that we
ought:, to proceed cautiously in the way of experiment. He
thought at the present moment we had not acquired that
fund of experience which would enable us safely to decide
upon the matter. The Civil service Commission had just
got to work, and in the course of another year they would
be in full operation, and then we might have sufficient ex-
perience to enable us to proceed more safely. He hoped,
therefore, the hon. member would be contented with this
assurance on the part of the Government, and consent to
postpone his motion.

Sir S. NORTIICoTE agreed with the Secretary of the
Treasury in thinking it better the question should be post-
poned, and therefore he trusted the hon. member would not
press his motion to a division.
Mr. MAGUIRE hoped that his hon. friend would perse-
vere, since that the answer given Row was precisely the
same as that given in 1856 to a similar motion.
Lord PALMERSTON said that the motion and the
speeches by which it had been supported raised a new
question. The object of the motion, as he understood it,
was not to ascertain whether the examinations were pro-
perly conducted, but whether they were to adopt, as a
general principle, that any one who thought proper to
come and write down his name as candidate for
a public office must be examined, instead of the present
system, which made the head of the department responsible
for the election of proper candidates. He (Lord Palmer-
ston) considered the present system to be the most proper
one, whilst at the same time he reckoned the patronage it
gave to the Government as perfectly valueless as a means
of keeping them in office. If a Government did not stand
well in public opinion, the privilege of appointing to a few
petty clerkships would not long preserve it from falling to
the ground. (Hear, hear.) He thought it not at all de-
sirable that all the young men of the country should turn
their attention to obtaining appointments under Govern-
ment, and that such a system was calculated to lower the
feeling of the rising generation. (Hear, hear.) He knew
how it worked in some countries abroad, and he believed it
was calcalated to break down the spirit of our young men ;
and if all the young men were to turn their attention to
Government situations, it was obvious that great numbers
of them must be disappointed. (Hear, hear.) A lesser in-
convenience would be that they would write down their
names for departments for which they were net fitted, and
therefore, under all the circumstances, he thought it better
that a discretion in nominaticn should be left to the heads
of public departments. India was no case in point, as the
young men were all examined with one view, and were
sent out in steamers to India to be subsequently allotted
to different departments. He quite concurred with those
who thought the system of competition advantageous to
the public service. It had been objected that that class
of questions was too difficult, but there was always this
difference between a standard and a competitive examina-
tion, that the former gradually gravitated towards a
minimum, whilst the latter as inevitably rose to a maxi-
mum in the information demanded. It had been objected
that questions were put to these young men which required
unnecessary attainments. That might be true, but with-
out them how were the commissioners to ascertain the com-
parative attainments of a number of young men ? What
they wanted to ascertain was not merely the candidate's
fitness for a new clerkship, but the general amount of his
ability and acquired information. It might be fitting to ap-
point a committee to inquire whether these examinations
were conducted in the beat manner. It was but due to these
commissioners to say that they had performed most useful
service to the public. They had conducted their examina-
tions upon principles which were well calculated to secure
the public good and efficient public servants. (Hear, hear.)
He was sure it would afford nothing but satisfaction to
them to submit to a committee at no distant time the course
which they had pursued, and he was satisfied that the result
of such an examination would be satisfactory to the public,
and to that authority by whom they were established.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. ROEBUCK said that the noble lord, he thought
had somewhat mistaken the object of the hon. gentleman's'
motion. The question was not whether the present mode
of appointing to the civil service was the best, but what was
actually being done. (Hear, hear.) He could' not under-
stand the statement that a year hence the house would be
better qualified than it was at present to form a judgment on
the question. What would they gain by a year's experi •
ence ? (Hear, hear.) What they wanted to know was what
had actually taken place. Well, a committee of the house
would really ascertain what had taken place. He thought
the system was a bad one. For this had taken place—A.B.,
one of his constituents, he would say, would come to him
and sa7, I have a son whom I want to introduce fur conipe-
tition into the Home-office. Do you think you can get my
son's name put down ? He (Mr. Roebuck) perhaps said I
have no doubt lam so able. He went to the Home-office,
and because he happened to be a member of Parliament he
had what he asked. But that was not open competition.
(Hear, hear.) Suppose that man had not bee one of his (Mr.
Roebuck's) constituents—had been a man of no influence,
though perhaps with a large family—if he had no person of
influence to apply to, he would have no more chance of having
his sores name put down than he (Mr. Roebuck) had of get-
ting the seat of the Great Mogul. (Hear, and laughter.)
It was said that by this means they would attract the atten-
tion of young men—that the best minds in the community
would be drawn to official stations; so that, according to
this argument, the present was not a competitive system,
and this he believed it to be. (Hear, hear.) But by a com-
petitive system they had obtained first-rate men for the In-
dian service. Well, then, they should have competition for
the home service. (Hear, hear.) It was further said that
the subject was not ripe for discussion. But the object was
not to inquire whether they were doing the best thing.
Whr.t they wanted to know was what was being done.
They wanted to have this authoritatively stated, so that
every one might know. But the system as at present con-
ducted was an absolute sham. (Hear, hear.)
Mr, CLAY said he presumed that the hon. gentleman
had moved for the committee reckoning on the probability
that the committee should recommerza that there should be
no medium between the preecilt, system and an absolutely
open competition. But he thought such a system would be
impossible. Candidates would have to produce, as they did
at present, the certificates of schoolmasters, and so forth.
But what these conditions should be would be precisely the
objects of 410117. Who noble lord seemed to anticipate that ,