The Sun.
London, England, 1860-02-03 00:00:00

.e.eei,e....e..--eeeeeeaeeseee--eeeeee.eesseaeeeeeeee--eeae--eeeseaee..sae--- Lord
He believed that in those departments the duties were very the in-coining Lieutenant for his outfit was classed
head of contingencies, but the house would bear
would in mind that within a comparatively few there
years had
efficiently discharged. But still,
_taking the expenditure in under the
flie-w-hOle of the publie departments together, it
ance ofl,ooo a year to the High Commis. sioner of the
found it was exactly doubled. The increase of expendi-
ar- been eight Viceroys appointed. (Hear, hear ) The all w
tore did not arise in the charges for the two y• a
we P
0,000. General Assembly of Scotland, and of £2,000 to the itine-
liaraent, which were in 1852, £89,000, and last
uroldusbethbraotugthhet
,
As far as the House of Commons WAS concerned,ysar the whole rant preachers, he should also like to remove; and last,
expenditure was £52,000, of which 141,000 was supplihedwebryo ainldBo,noooot
plaeiadst,fohr ediwplaosmaptairotisceulrvaireleys desirous
fees. Probably in no public office in the =trope s
economy and efficiency so combited, and. all weho had had ex- into the estimates. A resolution which he had proposed
pe 'once of the House of Commons and its officers knew that last session was rejected by a majority of 28 in a house
Ilene latter had always discharged their duties with an effi- of 256 members, but he still hoped that Parliament
ciency and a courtesy which deserved general thanks. expendituresee the advisability of exercising a control over the
(Cheers.) Between 1839_ and 1859 they had spent in that department. The diplomatic service
£6,000,000 in printing and stationery. In 1856, the item cost the country last year £268,898, and the consular seer-
was £458,000, but he was happy to see that last year it was vice £252,796, making a total of £521,694. Besides this
reduced to £337,000. (Hear, hear.) lie should be very charge on the Consolidated Fund he found that in the last
serry to curtail the printing of useful documents, but he 11 years there had been expended on the same account
thought the printing should be limited to papers of that miscellaneous, £248,000 ; special missions, £133,000 ; Em-
kind. The stationery and official postage items were both bassy-houses, chapels, £95,500 ; rent and outfit,
very much abused. Gentlemen connected with the Science £108,009 and £70,000. So that, if some supervision were
and Art Department did, not study economy in those re- not exercised over these sums, they would go on increasing
spects. He received from time to time from that department, until in a few years the cost of these united diplomatic ser-
in common, he supposed, with' every peer and member of vices would amount to millions instead of thousands. He
Parliament, bushels of papers, which went into their house- had given a plain unvarnished tale, with the object of in-
maids' baskets. He had recently received one, rather more during the house to adopt some measures that might more
than usually attractive. It was in a huge official envelope, effectually check this stream of expenditure which received
bearing on the outside, "Henry Cole, Science and Art Dee but a very inadequate consideration when the period of late
pertinent, South Kensington-On her Majesty's Service," sittings and hot nights came on-(hear, hear)--and when
and consisted of .an almanac. (Laughter.) He liked to members were tired and the house was impatient to enter
buy his own almanacs, and really he thought the Treasury on other business. The only consideration at which he
ought to check this sort of nonsense. (Cheers.) They all had been able to arrive was that the people of England
knew that they could not do without Secret Services, but had too reach money. theySoue had said that a Government
under that head there had been an expenditure during 20 never could be too rich, bu a the same observation did
years of £954,600, and he very much doubted whether the not apply to the people who were governed. To impose
secret information which had been obtained was worth the taxation was easy, and to disburse it was agreeable ; but the
money. (Hear, hear.) When any complaint was made of payment of taxes, except in eases of great national emer-
increase of salaries they were generally 'told, that a great gency, was a process that was always painful and disagree-
number of salaries were put in lieu- of fees..: In. 1851 able. (Hear, beer.) A rigid reform in the expenditure
the fees amounted to £138,000. Last year they might be very annoying to many of those persons who re-
had dwindled down to £lll,OOO, and of that sum the House presented ignorant incapacity and distinguished destitution,
of Commons' fees supplied £41,000, sO that the fees did but to the people of England a more rigid economy would be
not amount to any very large sum, and could not very acceptable. Before placing any new burdens on thepub-
contribute as largely to salaries as was represented. (Hear.) lic, the house ought to inquire whether the money it had
He had a great respect for both law and justice, but he al 'ready granted was properly expended. There was no wish
thought the expenditure under that head, which was enor- to diminish the efficiency oft he national service or refuse any
mously increased, required revision. The item was £2,500,000
asked wahs, t gee
wasted,
fund. He did not say that the charge on the consolidated the revenue should really be used for the public benefit, and
fund was improper, because the judges ought to be provide& the little interests of little men should not be allowed to in-
for in that permanent form. Into the important item of terfere with the great interests of a great country. (Hear.
education, science, and art, there was a commission inquire hear.) The hon. member concluded by moving his resolu-
ing at the present time, but he was anxious to call attention tion.
to the fact that the expenditure under that head had in- Mr. A. SMITH seconded it. He feared that the vast in-
creased from £175,000 in 1819 to £1,328,000 in 1859. He crease in the public expenditure during the last few years
hoped the country was receiving an equivalent for that ex- could not be ascribed to the Government of the House of
penditure. They voted last year £230,000 for pupil teachers, Commons alone, but that Parliament, the Government, and
and his experience taught him that the pupil teacher sys- the public itself were all more or less involved in the blame.
tern was becoming a failure ; they had married very early, He feared there were influences at work that induced the
if they were attractive young women, or went out as gover- house to relax in its duty of scrutinizing the estimates. It
nesses, and that in one way or the other they left the service had been said that only the upper classes were interested
of the educational staff. (Hear.) The next item was the in this expenditure. But on examination it would be found
consular and colonial expenditure. lie was pleased to think that the amount of the expenditure by which this particular
that the committee which sat on the consular system two or class was benefitted was really very small. The middle
three years ago had not been without its effect, and he sin- class had a large share in the advantage of this expenditure
cerely trusted that her Majesty's Government would carry and so had the glass of mechanics and workmen. There
out the recommendations of that committee. Her Majesty's was a combination of the influence of all classes to urge on
late Government entered very warmly into the question, an increase of expenditure. How often were members
and were, he believed, prepared to adopt measures likely to of that house heard complaining that particular classes
lead to great and beneficial changes. (Hear, hear.). The of persons did not receive a proper amount of pay ? Some
colonial charges were very large indeed, amounting in five hon. gentlemen took up the case of the officers employed
years to £22,000,000. Then there was the superannuation in the administration of the Poor Law, others that of the
and other items, into the details of which he would not mechanics in the different dockyards, or the officers of the
enter, but he begged to call the attention of the house to
Customs' Department.
Class 7. Those estimates were generally laid on the table From both sides of the house they
at a very late period of the session, when there was no heard arguments why there should be an increase in the ex-
penditure for thebenefit of particular parties. Another
time for investigation. They were termed temporary
principle also operated in the same direction. The Execu-
five of the day, in order to carry out certain views of local
charges, but he was sorry to say, after the first appearance
of an item in that class, it was generally continued for ever
afterwards, (Hear, hear.) With all respect for the metro- government, would place on the Consolidated Fund certain
expenditure. The
politan members, he objected to the large sums invariably sums as charges in relief of local house
sanctioned the practice and the cent al Government gained
demanded for metropolitan purposes. In counties they greater control in a certain
built bridges, made public gardens, and discharged at their department of administration.
own expense all the duties which No. 7 of the estimate
for the metropolis. For instance, last year they voted fors did was raised to more than it would have been had it been
But the result to the country was that the expenditure
Battersea-park, Chelsea-bridge, and Vauxhall embankment borne either by the general or the local government alone.
It was simply burning the candle at both ends. Of this
no less than £525,000. (Hear.) With regard to the Conso-
kind were the grants
lidated Fund the items comprised in it were never brought in aid of education, which had been
enormously extended ; the grants in aid of county rates,
before the house. They were printed in a blue-book at the of the expenses of the Poor Law Board, grants for the
end of each session; but something more was required than support of prisons and the rural police, with a
an inquiry within the four walls of the Treasury. The right variety of other grants of the same kind. A recent act
hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer had, in had created a Board of Public Works, in addition to the
1854, expressed an opinion that there was no point on which Board of Woods and Forests. Instead of being an economi-
the house was more apt to be led into laxity than that of cal arrangement, the new Board of Public Works now cost
laying on the Consolidated Fund charges which it ought more than the old Board of Woods and Forests-the latter
not to bear, the consequence of which was, that in some
£23,000 annually, the former £26,000. In the accounts of
measure they escaped the control of Parliament and were the Woods and Forests money was set down as capital that
forgotten, and the right hon. gentleman also said that it ought to be returned as revenue, and paidinto the Treasury.
would be advisable to establish_ some means by which the
attention of the house would be drawn periodically to these The public was paying £50,000 to enhance the value of the
Crown lands that ought to be paid into the Treasury, as
charges. That was exactly the object of this motion. The part of the compensation paid to the country for the settle-
first item en the Consolidated Fund was £385,000 for the ment of the Civil List of the Sovereign. These points should
Civil List. and, with regard to that, the only observation be clearly understood, he should therefore support the rase-
he would make would. be a hope that her Majesty might lution in favour of an inquiry. ,
live many years in health and happiness to enjoy it. He Mr. LAING thOught the house was very much indebted
was glad to observe that there had been a great improve-
ment lately in the revenues of the duchies of Lancaster and to the hon. member who had made the present motion for
Cornwall, for a few years ago they used to bring in very having brought under its notice a subject of great import-
little and cost a great deal. In the duchy of Lancaster there ance and one which excited out of doors a considerable
was a chancellor, a vice-chancellor, an attorney- general, and amount of public interest. A very general impression
50 other officials; in short, to use Burke's words, " all the
apparatus of a kingdom to manage a country gentleman's seemed to prevail throughout the country that the expendi-
estate." The house, he contended, had a right to look into ture
, forthe civil service had gone on of late years increasing
the management ofl these Crown lands and forests, to see to a very alarming extent, and that, too, notwithstanding
whetherthey produced a sufficient revenue. By an actpassed it was supposed to be in a great degree under the control of
in the reign of George IV. it appeared that the expenses of the
collection were the first charge on the revenues, then pen-
sions, and whatever was left went to the State. It was high military and naval purposes, influenced by circumstances
time that this mode of proceeding was altered, and the corn- which might render a large outlay unavoidable, It was,
mittee on public moneys was of the same opinion. In their re- therefore, that the civil service expenditure was regarded as
port they expressed an opinion " that these charges should bo affording the best test of the.economy of Parliament, and it
brought under the system of votes for expenditure, just like
was for that reason, among others, that he held the opinion
the charges respecting other branches of the public revenue.
But in answer to this report the Treasury had made a that if the specific motion before the house should be
minute to the effect that "My Lords" were of Opinion that, deemed to be well adapted to secure the end for which it
considering the peculiar nature of this revenue, it was ad- had been brought forward, and which every hon. member
visable to postpone any further consideration of this point must be anxious to attain, it should be at once acceded
unlil a further mvestigation took place preparatory to a new
to. It was quite clear at all events that, so far as the
surrender of the Crown lands to the publie, and a grant of
a new Civil List to the Crown. lie never could understand convenience of the Government was concerned, the
the reason of the Treasury for recommending this postpone- appointment of the proposed committee would relieve them
meat. Mr. Huskisson, Lord Monteagle, and other public from a very heavy responsibility; but as responsibility
men whose judgment should have great weight, were of could not be thrown to any degree upon one or two
opinion that the control of Parliament ought to be exercised
bodies without pro tanto relieving the other from it s pros-
over these revenues quite as much as over any other branch
of the public revenue. According to a Parliamentary paper sure, it was a point well worthy of consideration whether
lately delivered the revenue of the Crown lands, Woods and the accomplishment of such a result would in itself be ex-
Forests, from 1816 to 1859 was £13,273,295, and the ex- pe ien . (Hear, hear.) The hon. gentleman (Mr. Wise)
d" t
penses upwards of £6,000,000. The income for 1858-9' was
had; it was true, contended that the objection which he had
£416,771, and the sum received by the Consolidated Fund
was £280,040, from which was to be deducted a vote on Es- just- pointed out might in a great measure be removed by
timate 2of £23,000, so that it cost £190,231 to get £256,540. submitting to the notice of the committee, not the estimates
In 20 years the total revenues amounted to £6,705,917, out of the ensuing, but those of the past financial year; but as
of which was to be taken £2,214,000 far manage- nearly four-fifths of the expenditure of one year were made
meat, and £995,000 for permanent improvements, leaving a up of sums which reappeared in the estimates for the next,
net profit to the State of £3,495,000. This was much as if it was quite clear that the committee, in sanctioning those
a country gentleman, with a gross rental of £3,300 had to items, would, to a very considerable extent, remove from
pay £l,lOO for management and £.500 for permanent im- the shoulders of the Government any responsibility which
provements, leaving himself with an income of £1,700. might attach to their re-insertion, and would furnish the
What tenant for life would admire that state of things ? Minister with a satisfactory answer to any such inconve-
Yet it exactly represented the position of the country with nient questions which might be addressed to him by the
reference to the revenue of the Crown lands. No doubt hon. and learned member for Marylebone as to the large-
the gentleman at the head of the Department had effected ness of the amount which the house might be asked to re-
considerable improvements of late ; but there was still a vast vote under any particular head. (Hear, hear.) Be that,
amount of unseen and uncontrolled expenditure. Leaving however, as it might, he felt it to be hie duty to lay before
the lands, and travelling now to the mysterious recesses of the house the real state of the civil service estimates, in
:the Woods and Forests, it appeared fi on this paper that the order that hon. members might be in a position to judge
receipts of the Woods and Forests from 1803 to 1859 had upon whose shoulders it was meat desirable that responsi-
been £2,589,183, and the expenses £2,085,304. In 1859 the bility with respect to them should be permitted to rest. He
receipts were £47,181, and expenses £•52,984; in 1858 the should not in endeavouring to effect that object go further
receipts were £68,743, and expenses £58,170 ; and in 1857 back than tie financial year 1852-3, when a large amount
the receipts were £63,811, and the expenses £55,469. In had been transferred from the Consolidated Fund to the
order that it might not be thought that he had selected an estimates, inasmuch as any calculations based upon their
exceptional period he would take the four years ending 18.52, previous amountwould be because:of that change completely
in which he found that the receipts were £186,000, and the illusory. Now, thehon.gentlemanwhohadbrought theques.
expenses £lBB,OOO. In the four years. ending 1856 the tion under the notice of the house had referred to the greatly
receipts were £307,000 and the expenses £245,000. For the increased expenditure in connexion with the public offices
three years ending 1559 the receipts were £175,000 and the last year as compared with the year 1846; but it was an-
expenses £166,000, making for that period of 11 years a portant in dealing with that subject to bear in mind that
total of receipts of £673,000 and of expenses £600,000. Tak- the increase was to be accounted for by the transfer from the
ing now three of these Crown forests, it appeared that in Consolidated Fund to the estimates to which he (Mr. Laing)
that of Dean the receipts last year were £11,900 and the ex- had already alluded ; the fact being that, instead of there
penses £11,300 ; in the New Forest £16,000 had been re- being any increase, there was in many instances a slight
ceived and £ll,OOO expended ; and in Windsor Forest, diminution in the salaries of officers employed in our pub-
which from its vicinity to the Castle was exeePtionallYplaced lia departments. But, to proceed, to the statement of the
and required additional outlay in salaries, upon labour, the civil service expenditure, taking the financial years 1852-3
maintenance of deer, &c., the receipts had been £5,000 and as a starting-point, he found that in that year the sum
the expenses £19,030. When the large establishments and voted under that head was £4,407,000, while in 1853 it
expenses connected with the Woods and Forests were corn- was £7,840,000, thus showing, in the expenditure in the
plamed of it was urged that they were absolutely requisite latter over the former year, what at first sight appeared to
for the management of this extensive property, which be an actual increase of £3,433,000. It mt.st be borne in
amounted nominally, in forests alone, to 103,000 acres ; but mind, however, that of that amount 11,500,000 must be laid
Member-" 18541-had been made to the estimates from
he believed it was the fact that they had not a really bonefi- to the account oft) transfer which in 1853-[An hon.
cial interest in more than 30,000 acres. A few years ago the
Treasury directed three gentlemen of eminence to visit these the Consolidated Fund. That being so, hon. members could
the whole of the civil service, as between the two years which
portions of the Crown property, and they proceeded during not fail to perceive that the real increase of expenditure for
he had mentioned, was somewhere about £1,900,000. And
their, term of inspection to Delamere forest, which he would
take as an example of the injudicious mode of treatment that
had sometimes been adopted. The commissioners reported how, let him ask, was that amount made up ? Chiefly of
that the 4,000 acres of which the forest was composed " was items which were the result of legislation for which Per-
in every respect unsuited to the growth of oak, and that such liament itself was responsible. Now, the first item of in-
e crop ought never to have been planted upon it ; that trees crease during the seven years ending in 1859 which he
halild been planted in such places mei of such sizes as to preclude should mention was that under the head of education,
chance of their success ; that considerable loss had been science, and art, in which there was an increase of £860,000;
asuvstain!d by an unskilful mode of cutting down trees ; that the next was that which came under the head of law, jus-
are amount in value of thriving larch trees, admire tice, police, prisons, convicts, &c., in which the increase
ablyerY
suited to the soil in which they were growing and ap- for the same period had een £555,000 ; that under
preaching rapidly to coed timber had been -dieplaced to give the head of harbours being £150,000 ; of pub-
room for stunted thriftless oaks; which were of no Present lic buildings, parks, &c., £150,000 ;of stationery, £20,000;
value and
Treasurytothea.srvrheiacrhs
2 never could attain any." He desired in an of postage, telegraphs, &c., £100,000; making altogether a
especial manner to direct the attention of the Secretary to total increaselof £1,800,000. There were, however, in ad-
thewwehrischntwadeereuppetromAitptedril
in
no
every
yr dition, other charges made in the civil service estimates last
year. In 1857 the arrears which
0 ware thus permitted to tart' objects, in the rent accounts waserfoerininrestaalnityee,camensueinctedof
£loth7,nooaov,alwahniclehmhialid-
in 1859 to £202,248. The Treasury remain due amounted to 12- 11, in 1858 to £206,680, and been voted for the purpose of laying down a telegraph to
the power of checking this certainly ought to have Gibraltar, to enable us to communicate with that fortress,
injurious effects, as events, to have existed for three system, which seemed, at all and also with our fleet in the Mediterranean ; and a sum of
t.ttnd which must be £60,000 in connexion with the exchange upon remittances,
attended with very
a sum as £200,000 to remain in the hands i
dpsermitted so large which, together with some smaller amounts, made up a sum
agents and stewards charged with the ethe country of L 200,0110 the total increase for the seven years ending in
venues of the Crown. (Hear.) The capitatcollection of the re- 1858 being,' as he had said before, about £1,900,0300. With
account likewise leaped to the expenditure which was incurred for the pub-
called for examination, as it was both mysterious
or an4cilunsa- lie departments he thought it desirable to make a few re-
tisfactory in its nature. Within the last 30years marks with the view of removing from the public mind the
Crown property to the value of £2,408,203 had been
and this system of constant sales and re-investments sold,
S: vasalds erroneous impression that money was lavishly laid out in
hi society. e
would Now ,
connexione with them in order to increase patronage, espe-
attended with ineonvenience and enormous expense. asuyehfowretrheethbeeneeafiste-ofwthheieuhpiptelrvecsla;i
year an amount of no less than £13,037 was paid for legal if goets-otfh es °cc
expenses and plans incidental to these sales of Crown lands,
apply to the expenditure for the Treasury and the Colonial
and though it might be extremely desirable to consolidate Department rather
this property, which was scattered through almost every .inas h than to any other of the public offices,
county in England, and so to get rid of a large army f Mlle as clerkships in those departments were
0, ro- sought after by young more
male, iesurveyors, st e sards,and ern ts-(hear)-he thought found ithat while the totalmen of
good family. He, however,
the improvement might be more judiciously effected than by was, in 1852, £54 400 expenditure for the Treasury
this perpetual system of buying and selling. The Chancellor £54 • while , ,it was in 1859 not more than
of the Exchequer had, the • wise and e ,600 , in the case of the Colonial-office,
a few years ago, taken p nditure, which, in the • I-office, the ex-
of of charges in the latter
judicious course of removing a great number _
__ not more than £3) 978 The ' '
from the Censolideed Fund to the estimates for the year ; office, in fact, in een . ~ •. only public
whom he be- been an n • • nemon with which there had
and he trusted that the right hon. gentleman,
with
ry taterially •increased outla in 1859
lieved to be at heart a riacere financial reformer, would per- lBe2, was the Foreign-office, anyd the 'as
wmpared
severe in the same beneficial direction. There were a num- instance was to be accounted for by the increase in that
her of charges which, in his opini )n, might with great ad- telegrams and special messengers. n
the cgs
of
vantsgebe removed from the Consolidated Fund to the yearly Law Office there had been an actual deeri.as 'of
. the Poor
estimates, where they would be exposed to the consideration penditure in 1859 as compared with 1852, theeseuin the ex-
and criticism of the house. Amon.. these he placed the charge it having been in the latter year £95,000, whileTnyed f6r
for the Lunacy Commission of 11'9,500 ; that for the Audit- moor it had been only £59,000. Taking the civilthefor..
office of £6,300, which was in addition to the sum of estimates generally, indeed, he found that, while there service
v
£32,466, appearing on the estimates for the expenses of that a great increase in that expenditure which miaht be said to
office. Then there was the sum ofllo,ooo for secret service come more especially under .Pr liamentary control, a very
money, in addition to the £32,000 in the estimates ; and this considerable regard to administrative economy was cheer::
item he should like to abolish altogether, believing that it able in the managemen of
.he public offices. There we .
t man items in the civil • le'
was oposed to the openness of the English character, and for example; a grea y service esti-
that
the country had never derived any substantial benefit mates over which the Government could hardly be said to
from such expenditure. The sums of £lO,OOO for the G..- have any control whatever, as, for instance, in those cases
vernment of the Isle of Man ; £17,000 for the auginenta in which new establishments were brought into existence
tion of stipend to the owing to a vote of the House of Commons, with a fixed
West India s the Scotch clergy ; and £20,300 to
'attached t the'r mai t T
enance. aim
clergy might in like manner be transferred ad- scale of expenditure .o i n
vantageouslto law and justice. T.hat house had seen
the Lord Lieutenant the estimates. The salary of e 20,000 to the department of
wined on the of Ireland ought, perhaps to be re- fit to extend the advantages of cheap justice by establish-
thenot been done • h
wan maintainedonsolidated Fund as long as the office itself ing the County Courts; but that had -
dition to this2o ; but it should be remembered that in ad- out considerable expense to the country. He was afraid
of Castle expelislOtherewere further payments on account that in matters of expenditure a committee would not be
household of £6,1310 the amount of £4,378, and to the quite so satisfactory as the hon. gentleman supposed; and
yearly. The allowance of £3,000 to he could not give a better instance of what was likelT to