The Sun.
London, England, 1860-03-29 00:00:00

~~6~

IMPERIAL PA RLIAM6IT.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(YESTERDAY.)
The SPEAKER took the chair at twelve o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.
The Wigan Water Bill was read a third time and passed.
The following bills were considered and ordered for a
third -reading :—Land Loan and Improvement Company,
Nid Wales Railway, Stockton and Darlington Railway.
; The following bills were road a second time :—"Jommercial
Ducks Acts Amendment, Grand Surrey Docks and Canal.

CHURH RATES.
Sir J. 'FRE:LAWNY prpresented 209 petitions in favour
of the total abolition of church-rates. (Cheers.)
Mr. DILWYN presented 117 petitions, Mr. HADFIELD 45,
and other hon. members a large number to the same effect.
Some petitions to the contrary effect were also laid on the
table, and the presentation of these documents occupied a
considerable portion of the early part of the day.
CHURCH-RATES ABOLITION BILL.
On the motion for going into committee on this bill,
Mr. PACKE made some general observations against the
bill, but the hon. member spoke so indistinctly that he was
quite unintelligible in the reporters' gallery.
Mr. NEWDEGATE moved as an amendment to leave
out from the word " that" to the end of the question, in
order to add the words, "this house will to-morrow re-
solve itself into a committee to consider the propriety of
establishing in lieu of church rates, thenceforth to be abo-
lished, a charge ou all hereditaments, in respect of the oc-
cupancy of which church rates have been paid within the
last seven years; such charge to be.levied with the county
rate at an uniform rate of poundage, the occupier being in
all cases entitled to deduct the amount of the charge levied
on his occupation," instead thereof. Having adverted to
the change that had taken place in the opinions of certain
hon. members with reference to this bill, he said he
would accept as an opinion in favour of the bill the decision
to which the house had arrived on former stages. He
would not, therefore, ask the house to consider the same
question that had been debated on the second reading of
the bill. He believed that the majority of hon. members
who voted for the bill had no desire to do away with
the means of maintaining the fabric of the Church; but he
considered that the church• rates were not a charge on the
person, but on the property of a parish, levied for the
purpose of supporting the Church. That was the
view of some of the most eminent authorities ; and
although he was as desirous as any other person for ob-
taining peace and harmony in parishes, yet he cou'd not
assent to the spoliation of the Church and the ,
poor, particularly in rural parishes, to the ex,
tent of £300,000, for the benefit of the • pos-
sessors of real property. Having referred to the
opinions of the late Sir R. Peel and Archdeacon Hale in
support of his opinion, he contended that the attacks, of the
Liberation Society with respect to church rates were directed
against the whole system of a State church, and that their
abolition would do away with the parochial system throughout
the country. (Hear, hear.) He proposed that the rate which
he would substitute for the present impost should be col-
lected with the county rate, and paid to the treasurer
of Queen Anne's bounty. If his amendment were
agreed to, he would leave the bill founded on it to be
brought forward by abler hands, and he believed in the
House of Lords it would be passed.
Nr. CROSS seconded the amendment, for he consi-
dered that if they abolished church rates they were bound
to provide an equivalent. He denied that the opposition to
church rates resulted from the general feeling of the people
at large, and he wished he could obtain returns to show in
how many cases the opposition to these rates was straight-
forward and manly, and in how many cases it was the re-
sult of the instigation of the Liberation Society. The Dis-
senters asked them why they did not adopt the voluntary
system, which worked well with them (the Dissenters). To
that he replied that the voluntary system did not answer
for Dissenters, and that it was totally inapplicable to the
Church of England. It should always be borne in mind
that the latter was bound to provide church accommodation
for all those who might visit their churches, while the Dis-
senters were hound to supply seats only for their separate
and distinct congregations. Having cited the authority of
several clerical and other writers, to prove both his state-
ments with respect to church rates,
Mr. HOUSMAN contended that the Church of Eng-
land was more interested than even the Dissenters in the
settlement of this question, for he believed that the Church
lost more in the animosities and heats created by the im-
post than it gained by any pecuniary benefit it derived. He
thought, however, after what had already taken place, that
a measure on this subject could only be successful in the
hands of the Government, and not of these of private mem-
bers.

Sir J. TRELAWNY having adverted to the attempts
made to legislate on the subject, agreed that the proposi-
tion of the hon. member for North Warwick (Mr. Newde-
gate) would be impracticable and operate most unjustly,
and if it were attempted to be carried out, the result would
be that there would be as great an agitation as there
had been with reference to ministers' money and
the annuity tax. He stood between two great
portico, but he had no communication with and was en-
tirely independent of them in reference to this matter. He
was anxious to have this question settled, as he was tired
of it. (Laughter.) He had presented 209 petitions that
day, and a large number during the week, which had occu-
pied him one hour a-day to sign. He considered the best
course to be adopted was to allow the bill to go to the House of
Lords, where it might now stand a greater chance of being
favourably received. lie expressed a hope that the Legis-
lature would see the necessity of settling the question
without further delay, and thereby terminating the strife
and heartburnings produced by the collection of an impost
that was regarded as obnoxious.
Mr. HENLEY explained that a speech attributed to
him en this subject had been delivered by Lord Henley.
Lord HENLEY pointed out that the effect of the plan
proposed by the hon. member would be, that the money to
be substituted for church rates would be paid by the owners
of property, and voted by occupiers, which was most objec-
tionable. He pointed out several other objections to the
plan, and contended that any legislation other than the
abolition of the tax would be productive of the greatest evils.
The members of the Church of England were suite able to
support the fabrics of the Church without having recourse
to compulsory taxation, and he quoted various statistics to
show the progress made during late years in the erection of
places of worship by the Wesleyans, Baptists, and other
Dissenting bodies under the operation of the voluntary
principle. From these considerations he felt bound to sup-
port the bill of the hon. member (Sir J. Trelawny).
Mr. PHILIPS opposed the abolition of church-rates
without some equivalent, and therefore he would vote for
the motion of the hon. member for North Warwick,
although he did not consider his proposition free from
objection.

Sir M. PETO strongly opposed the amendment of the
hon. member for North Warwickshire, and he assured the
house that Dissenters would be content with nothing but
the abolition of the church-rate. With regard to the in-
tentions of Dissenters, he could also assure the house that
the majority of that ()Teat body had no desire to take from
the Church of England one farthing to which she was
justly entitled ; but they were firmly resolved to resist the
continuance of this impost. He conscientiously believed
that the Church of England would prosper far more
vigorously than she did at present, if that impost were abo-
lished, and she depended for the maintenance and extension
of her fabrics on the voluntary principle. In support of
that position he referred to the operation of the voluntary
principle, He stated that the number of sittings in the
churches and chapels of the United Kingdom, in 1801, was
under 5,0@0,000, while in 1851 it amounted to 10,000,000 ;
and the actual number of sittings not dependent upon the
voluntary principle was under 200,000. It was a fact that,
within a short space of time, £200,000 had been collected
in Calcutta for the repair of Brahmin churches ; and he
asked, were the people of the Church of England less 'zea-
lous than Hindoos in regard to the maintenance of their
places of worship. He also referred to the state of Canada
in regard to the Church of England, and stated that the
Speaker of the Legislative Council of Canada, who was at
present in Englan, had told him that since the abolition
of the clergy reserve tax, the revenue of the Church in that
county had nearly doubled. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. P. WATLINGTON opposed the bill.
Mk. EVANS considered that the time had arrived when
the question should be finally settled, and as he considered
the bill would have that effect, ho would give it his sup-

port.
Lord J. MANNERS said that the great obstacle which
existed to the settlement of this question was the bill intro-
duced by the hon. baronet the member for Tavistock (Sir
J. Trelawny). However, though he retained all his ob-
jections to that bill, he thought it would be better to allow
it to go to the House of Lords, in the hope that a compro-
mise might be effected, and therefore he would oppose the
amendment, to which he strongly objected on other
grounds.
Sir G. GREY said he would defer until they went into
committee any explanation relative to the clauses which he
proposed to move, and which were on the paper.
Mr. MELLOR considered the amendment of the hon.
member for North Warwick was opposed to the good sense
and feeling of the country. He also objected to the ?ropo-
sition of the House of Lords, which was to the effect that
church rates should be a fixed charge, and that it should be
double on those who were willing to pay it, in order to com-
pensate for those who had conscientious scruples to the ini•
post. He believed if they did away with those rates, t hey
would find it would prove beneficial to the Church, for his
own experience convinced him that people valued what
they paid for, and did not much regard what they received
in an eleemosynary form.
Mr. A. MILLS strongly objected to the bill.
Mr. WALTER considered that there were only two
ways of dealing with this question, the first by doing away
with the effect of the decision in the Braintree case, or
abolishing church rates. He thought there could be no
compromise, and of all propositions for that purpose the
most hopeless was the amendment of the lion. member for
Warwick. As a member of the Church of England he had
no apprehension of the decay of the fabric of the Church
if they depended on the voluntary principle, and therefore
he considered it would be impolitic to retain in the face of
so much hostility such a contemptible impost as the chui ch
rates.

Admiral WALCOT strongly objected to the bill.
Mr. NEWDEGATE rose to reply; but
The SPEAKER informed the hon. member that he was
not entitled to do so on an amendment.
The house then divided, and the numbers were--
For going into committee ............ 222
Against
Majority
173
This announcement was received with cheers.
The house then went into committee on the bill.
Sir M. PETO, in the absence of Mr. T. Duncombe,
moved, at the end of clauss 1, to add —Nor shall any ex-
penses' payable out of the proceeds of a church rate, be
henceforth defrayed out of any sum or sums accruing from
any other rate whatsoever, any law or custom to the con-
trary notwithstanding.
Mr. NEWDEGATE lamented the change that had
taken place in the policy of the members of the front
benches on this side of the house, who not only voted for
the abolition of a church-rate, but against any equivalent
being substituted for that impost. He opposed the amend-
ment.
__ • _

Mr. MOWBRAY, as one of the members alluded
to, defended the course' he had pursued, and stated that gen-
tlemen quite as much interested in the Church of England
as the hon. member for North 'Warwickshire felt placed in
a verypainful position by the sours° that hon. members had
thought fit to pursue in reference to this subject.
Mr. MALINS made a few observations to the same

effect.
After some further discussiOn the amendment was with-
drawn, and the clause was agreed to. The other clauses
were also agreed to.
Sir G. GREY moved the addition of the following
clauses, and explained that the object which he
proposed would be to meet cases of hardship
that existed in different parts of the country :
The ino.unbent and churchwardens of any parish, where
they Wily think it necessary for defraying expenses which
might have been defrayed out of church rates if such rates
hatl not been abolished, may, with the consent of the
ordinary, from time to time charge such of the pews or
sittings in the church of such parish as by prescrip-

tion, faculty, or otherwise are appurtenant to any
messuage or appropriated to the occupier thereof, or as
have heretofore been assigned to or commonly occupied by
the occupiers of particular messuages without payment,
with yearly or half-yearly rents, according to a scale to
be fixed by such incumbent and churchwardens, with
the consent aforesaid (and such scale may be varied
from time to time by the like authority) ; and such
rents shall be payable to the churchwardens on such yearly
or half-yearly days as the incumbent or churchwardens,
with such consent as aforesaid, shall think proper.
Mr. S. ESTCOURT did not consider that pew rents
were an efficient substitute for church rates, and he opposed
the amendment.
Mr. WALTER said even if it should turn out that cer-
tain seats in a church were appropriated to particular
cottages, and that the owners were called upon to pay for
them, still no very great hardship would be inflicted on
them.
Mr. ROEBUCK wished to know under what responsi-
bility this new tax would be imposed? How could the thing
Lie done regularly by the incumbent and the churchwardens
without creating ill-feeling amongst the parishioners?
Sir G. GREY thought that no practical difficulty would
arise in appropriating seats and making the charge work
I fairly for all parties.
Mr. WALPOLE was of opinion that the clause was very
objectionable. He would ask the law officers of the Crown
whether pews could be legally appropriated. At present
there were few cases where they were appropriated either
by faculty or otherwise. The effect of the alteration wculd
be that the house would Fend down into the country a mes-
sage that all persons who had been accustomed to occupy
particular pews should pay a rent to enable them to do so
in future, or that they should not go to church. (Cheers.)
Did the house know what it was doing ? Was he to under-
stand that this bill was to be a stepping-stone for the pur-
pose of doing away with the connexion between Church and
State P
Sir J. TRELA WNY thought the clause would have the
effect of drying iv the voluntary principle. If his bill was
allowed to star,d as at first framed, there would be plenty
of Nubs for &he support of the church.
Lord J. M ANNE RS believed that this clause would bring
about litigation in the parishes in which it might be at-
tempted to carry it into practice. The clause would affect
the whole, of the seats in any parish church, whether they
were holden by prescription, faculty, or otherwise. He
had a great Objection to pew rents, and this clause would
make, them in some instances compulsory. It would create
hea it-burnings, rivalry, dissent, dissension, and ill-feeling
in places where those unenviable qualities did not exist.
Ile objected to pew rents on social, political, and religion*
grounds. (Hear, hear.)
Xi% HORSMAN also objected to pew rents, and he
thought the expedient now proposed was more dangerous,
novel, ond objectionable than any be had heard. (Cries of
" Divide, divide," and " Oh, oh.") His great objection
to the clause was, that it would create quarrels betvfeen
parishioners and incumbents and churchwardens, and it
would compel many persons to become Dissenters.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY hoped the house would hesi-
tate before they refused assent to the principle of the elause.
He considered that Dissenters should be exempted from
church rates, but he believed it was necessary that there
should be some provision for churches in the country.
After some discussion, the clause was negatived without
a division.

The preamble was then agreed to, and the bill want
through committee, and was ordered to be read a third time
en Thursday, Aprill9. The house resumed amidst cheers
from the Ministerial side of the house.
PUBLIC IMPROVEMENTS BILL.
This bill was postponed.
SUPPLY.
The house went into a committee of supply, for the par.
pose of voting some army and navy votes for a period of
four months.

The first vote was one for £1,500,000 for the pay of the
army.
Col. LINDSAY wished to ask whether the army.osti-
mates as altered would be laid upon the table and prmted
before the Easter recess, so that they might be compared
and examined by hon. members ?
Mr. S. HERBERT would, if possible, lay them on the
table for that purpose, but he would yak for a further vete
without giving full opportunity fir discussion.
Major EDWARDS inquired whether a sum would be
provided for the payment of the services of the yeomanry
cavalry ?
Mr. S. HERBERT answered in the affirmative, and
stated that every part of the estimates would be submitted
for full discussion after Easter.
The following votes amongst others were then put and
agreed to

-12,300,000 for miscellaneous expenses and charges can•
nected with the army.
£lOO,OOO for the expenses and charges of the militia.
£427,000 for provisions for the army.
£723,000 for warlike stores, and for the sea service.
On the vote for fortificatior s and other works,
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY thought the committee were
going a long way in granting these votes without discussion.
Col. KNOX protested against the plan of taking army
and navy estimates on account.
Mr. BENTINCK also objected to the course now pro-
posed. He intended to oppose any vote which included a
charge for tke work at Alderney, and if it came to breaking
contracts there would be no difficulty about that, after the
late experience which they had all had. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. S. HERBERT said it was only intended to proceed
with works under contract, but as there were objections
raised to the vote he would move that the chairman report
progress. (Hear, hear.)
The Chairman thereupon left the chair, and the house
resumed.

THE INCOME TAX BILL.
On the motion that the house go into committee on this
bill,

Col. DUNNE complained that many hon. members had
had no opportunity of discussing the provisions of this
to which there were great objections. He himself intended
to propose that in Ireland the tax should be 9d. and not 10d.,
and unless a promise were given that he should do so to-
morrow on the report, he would proceed with his motion
now.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER hoped hon.
gentlemen would not raise a discussion on this stage, for if
the bill were delayed it would not reach the House of Lords
in time to be passed before the recess. There would be
ample opportunity to discuss the clauses of the bill on the
bringing up of the report.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS said he wished to present 30 peti-
tions against income-tax being deducted from incomes
under 1:150 a-year.
The SPEAKER ruled that the petitions could not be
presented at this stage of the bill.
The house then went into committee.
Lord C. HAMILTON hoped that the right hon. gentle-
man the Chancellor of the Exchequer would not attempt to
force this bill through the house without giving an oppor-
tunity for full and ample discussion.
After further conversation, the clock pointed to a quarter
to six, and thereupon the chairman left his seat at the
table, and the Speaker returned to the chair.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
that stage of the bill would be lost unless hon. gentlemen
opposite would consent to the house going again into com-
mittee.

The SPEAKER pat the question that the house go int*
committee, and it being agreed to, Mr. Massey took his
place as chairman at the table.
Mr. VANCE urged that a promise should bo given by
the right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer
that there should be a discussion on the report.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
world, if possible, induce the house to agree to that sours*
to-morrow evening.
After one of the clauses had been agreed to,
Mr. BENTINCK desired to know whether the present
proceeding was in accordance with the laws, customs, and
usages of the house ?
Mr. MASSEY said it was clearly competent to the house
to agree to the motion made for again going into committee,
and that consent having been given, the proceeding was
quite regular.
The bill then passed through committee, and the house
resumed.

THE STAMP DUTIES BILL.
The house went into committee pro forma on this bill,
and then resumed.
THE PUBLIC IMPROVEMENTS BILL AND THE
BENEFIT SOCIETIES RULES AMENDMENT BILL
These bills passed through committee respectively, and
were reported to the house with amendments.
The house adjourned at five minutes to six o'clock.

2111 S DAY'S MARKETS.

CORN EXCHANGE.

htt ERIAL WEEKLY AVERAGES. - Wheat, 45. 6d ;
barley, 36s lid; oats, 23s 4d; rye, 32. Od ; bow's, 39.
3d ; and peas, 37s 7d.
THE Six WEEEs° AYRRAGES. Wheat, 44• 9d ;
barley, 36s id ; oats, 22s 9d ; rye, 32s 8d ; beans, 39e 2d ;
peas, 37s 3d.

. ,
ENGLISH GRAIN SOLI) LAST WHEY,—Wheat, 120,t3t ;
barley, 45,541; oats, 11,939 ; rye, 261; beaus, 6,771; peal,
1,026 quarters.

METROPOLITAN CATTLE MARKET.

About an average supply of beasts were on sale here to.
day in but middling condition. All kinds moved &slowly ;
but, compared with Monday, no change took place in the
quotations. The show of sheep was only moderate. The
best Downs and half-breds realised fall currencies. Other-
wise, the mutton trade ruled somewhat heavy on former
terms. Lambs sold briskly at an improvement in value of
4d. per Sibs. The supply was rather limited, and only 120
head came to hand from the Isle of Wight. We had a fair
demand for calves at very full prices; but pigs and milch
cows were a dull inquiry.

Per 811;s to sink the oral.

a. d. s. d.
Crse. & inf. beasts 3 4 3 6
Second quality do. 3 8 4 0
Prime large oxen 4 2 4 6
Prime Scats, &c. 4 8 4 10
Crse. & inf. sheep 3 8 4 0
Second quality do. 4 2 4 S ,
Lambs, 6s
Suckling calves, 18s to 22s ;
22s to 295.

s. d. s. d.
1 Prime ers-wool do. 4 10 6 4
1 Pme. S'thdown do. 5 6 6 '8
Large eras. calves 4 8 6 0
Prime small do 5 2 6 6
Large hogs 3 6 3 A
Small porkers
Odlto 7s Od.

and quarter eld store pip,

FOREIGN SUPPLY.
Beasts 9O
Sheep sl2
Calves BO
Pigs ....