The Sun.
London, England, 1860-03-05 00:00:00

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THE SUN, LONDON, MOiNDAY EVENING, MARCH 5, 1860.

THE .REFoRm BILL.

DEPUTATION TO LORD J. LUSSELL.

On Saturday afternoon a deputation from the
Lancashire Reformers' Union waited upon Lord J.
Russell at the Foreign-office for the purpose of as-
certaining if it were possible in the new Reform
Bill to insur.3 to Lancashire a larger share in the
redistribution of seats. The deputation consisted
of Mr. G. Wilson, chairman of the Lancashire Re-
formers' Union ; Mr. Mark Philips, Mr. G. Had-
field, M.P., Mr. Bazley, M.P., Mr. Kershaw, M.P.,
Mr. Pilkington, M.P., Mr. J. Crook, M P., Colonel
Salway, Mr. P. Robinson, Mr. J. Cheetham, and
the following delegates :—Ashton—N. Buckley;
Andenshaw—J. Crosby, J. Smethurst ; Bolton—
H. Ashworth, P. R. Arrowsmith, S. Dyson, R. Hey-
wood ; Bury—J. Austin ; Chorley—J. Hodgkin-
son ; Darwen—R. S. Ashton ; Godley—T. Hibbert ;
Kirkham—R. Bowdler ; Leigh—T. Kirkpatrick;
Liverpool—C. T. Bo bvring ; Littleborough —J.
Scholefield ; Moseley—G. Andrew ; Manchester—
Sir E. Armitage, Alderman Heywood, J. Heywood,
T. B. Potter, J. Heyworth, J. B. Torr, T. Clowes,
E. Johnson, T. Warburton, F. Royse, H. Ogden,
E. Waters. R. Marten, S. F. Armitage ; Oldham—
J. llibbert, Alderman Boyd, J. S. Holden, Whit-
taker; Preston—Capt. German, R. Charley; Roch-
dale—E. Ashton, Alderman Livesey ; St. Helen's,
—S. Gurney ; Salford—W. Morris, Alderman Tur-
ner, W. J. Williams; Stalybridge—W. Bailey;
Toclmorden—C. Chambers; Ulverston—A. Brog-
den ; Warrington—Alderman P. Rylands, Alder-
man Cartwright, and G. Crosfield.
The deputation having been introduced,
Mr. G. WILSON said the subject to which they
wished to invite his lordship's attention was the
desirableness of increasing the number of the Par-
liamentary representatives for Lancashire, and he
hoped his lordship would not consider them im-
portunate if they said that they thought, notwith-
standing all the merits of the Reform Bill intro-
duced on Thursday, that tho Government had not
given the people of Lancashire that to which they
were fairly entitled. With profound respect
for his lordship's long co:sstit ut ion al ser-
vices, the Reformers of Lancashire did feel
to some extent disappointed with the ar-
rangements which had been made. Prior to the
passing of the great Reform Bill, Lancashire re-
turned 14 members. The bill of 1832 disfranchised
Newton-in-the-Willows, and took one member from
Ulitheroe, thus reducing the number irom 14 to 11.
So far as disfranchisement went, that clearly showed
that there was no great amount of rottenness in
Lancashire at that period. The bill subsequently
created four new boroughs—Manchester, Oldham,
Blackburn, and Bolton, with two members each ;
and five—Ashton-under-Lyne, Rochdale, Bury,
Salford, and Warrington, with one member each,
making 13 in all, and with two additional members
for the county, increasing the total number of mem-
bers for Lancashire from 14 to 26. The bill of 1832
was based upon the census returns of 1821, as his
lordship was not in possession of the census returns
for 1831 at the time he drew the draught of the bill.
Lord J. RUSSELL—No, I was not.

Mr. WILSON—His lordship relied entirely upon
the census of 1821, though before the bill passed it
was quite true that his enemies obtained the returns
for 1831, with a view of establishing the right of
the old small boroughs to be continued. Now, in
1821 the population of Lancashire was on1y1,052,000;
in 1859, according to the approximation of the cen-
sus obtained by the Government, it was 2,371,752,
showing that the increase had been 1,319,752, or
125 per cent. The general increase of the country
within the same'period, excluding Lancashire, had
only been 59 per cent., and a population which in
1821 was considerably below that of Yorkshire and
Middlesex was now above each of them, and was
consequently the premier county in point of popu-
lation. Indeed, the increase of population had been
so remarkable that it had been more than the entire
population ofseven counties which at present sent 80
members to Parliament, and the entire population
was more than the actual population of 13 counties
returning 123 niembers to Parliament. It was na-
tural to expect that this increase of population had
been accompanied by a great increase of wealth ;
and on reference to returns he found it had been
233 per cent, while th-: general increase in the
country, excluding Lancashire, had. been at the
rate of 80 per cent. In point of fact,
Lancashire possessed one•eighth of the entire
population of England and Wales, and paid one-
eighth of the property tax of the kingdom, and
upon the same basis surely it ought to return one-
eighth of the 500 members in England and .Wales.
He confessed that he had read his lordship's state-
ment on Thursday with great disappointment, be-
cause he believed the result would be that, so far as
Lancashire was concerned, in., the distribution of
seats the inequalities in the representation would
really be greater after the new suffrage was intro-
duced than they were now. 'About 30 per cent. of
the increase which the bill gave in the number of
voters would be in Lancashire, but yet they only
received members amounting to 22 per cent., and
consequently the disproportion between the popu-
lation, voters, and members would be more appa-
rent after the next election than they were before.
The four counties of Bucks, Wilts, Dorset, and
Hereford, with a total population of 732,000, re-
turned 48 members to Parliament. The present bill
proposed to cut them down to 41, and to, increase
the 26 Lancashire members to 32 ; but the increase
of the population of Lancashire siucc 1821 had been
more than 1,000,000, and consequently much greater
than the entire population of the counties in ques-
tion. North Essex, with a county population of
173,000, would receive one additional county mem-
ber, and would lose one of its four borough members.
West Cornwall, with a coun'y population of 167,000,
would continue its six borough members, and would
have an increase te one in the county. West Nor-
folk, with a county population of 179,000 and a
borough population of 26,600, would lose one of its
four borough members, but receive him back again

in the comity. North Yorkshire, with a county po-
pulation of 180,00 and a borough population of
100,830, would also lose a borough member and gain
one in the county ; and South Devon, with a county
population of 226,000 and a borough population of
192,000, would lose 2 of its 14 borough Members, au d •
receive only one in the county, making a real loss of
one. It was generally supposed that Lancashire had
no county population, but the county population, ex-
cluding the boroughs, was 912,000. The county
population of these five counties was 950,000, or
only a few thousands more, and yet they were to
have 15 members, while Lancashire was only to
have six. If the borough members were taken the
discrepancy was still greater. The population of
all the boroughs in these five counties was only
390,640, at present returning 39 members, but here-
after only to return 31. If Lancashire returned
members in proportion, she would be entitled to 15
for the county, and 120 instead of 22 for boroughs.
He apologised to his lordship if he had expressed
himself warmly, but he knew there was a feeling
abroad that the cotton districts could not select

proper men to represent them. 'Without attempt-
ing to argue whether a cotton spinner ever made a
good politician, he wished to deny that the people
of Lancashire had uniformly selected as their re-
presentatives gentlemen engaged in the trade of
the district. He believed that with one exception
this was the only time that two persons engaged
in trade had ever represented Manchester. His
lordship's colleague, Mr. Poulet Thompson, repre-
sented it for some time.

his lordship himself
w offered
Mr. continued—knowing his lordship's
desire to improvMr.
ecounty.otfhethceongd
riteia°l,lest Reformers of his
the peoplo, and
age, they desired to have him as their representa-
tive in the county, and he himself should
thathe was
have been
glad to have supported him. Again, Mr. Milner
Gibson, in whom they had great confidence, had
represented them. Mr. Gibson was a London man
in every sense of the word. He remained with
them for some years, and would have remained
now, but for the course which the right hon. gen-
tleman and his lordship took upon the China ques-
tion. (Laughter.) Old Mr. Cobbett sat for Oldham
for many years, and it was now represented by his
son and Mr. Fox, neither of whom had any connec-
tion with the cotton trade of the county. Mr. F.
Peel sa for Bury, Mr. Grenfell for Preston, the
Marquis of Hartington and Col, Patten for North
Lancashire, and two gentletnen connected with the
landed interest for South Lancashire. These facts
showed that the people of Lancashire had never
been desirous of 'electing those who were connected
wiih the special trade of the district, unless they
had other recommendations which rendered them
acceptable to the people. He was educated by his
father, with instructions that he was to look to the
noble lord as the greatest living constitutional au-
thority, and he wished to be permitted to retain
that opinion. He did not attend there to ask the
Government to give them equal electoral districts,
nor to say that there should not be boroughs, large
and small, or that the old geographical landmarks
which the constitution had set up should be altered;
but inasmuch as the people of Lancashire bad made
their trade by open competition with the rest of

Vie world—as they:were not exempt from the im-
position of taxes ner dsficient in loyalty, they asked
the Government to revise their bill, and give •to
Lancashire that whirl, after due consideration, the
facts of the case would show that they were en-
titled to.
Mr. J. HEYWOOD tlought the Government might
without inconvenience divide South Lancashire
into two diviSions, ani he believed there would not
be any great oppofition if they disfranchised
Ciithcroe altogether.
Mr. BAZLEY, MT., hoped that Salford would
have an additional member. It had a population
of 120,000, and was quite as important as the
borough of Leeds, to which the bill gave an addi-
tional member.

The claims of St. Helen's, Ulverston, Darwen,
and Cherley to representation were also urged, and
in reply,
Lord J. RUSSELL said—l think the best course I
can pursue is 'not to enter into a discussion upon
any of the statements which have been made to me
at present. I can only say that the Government
very carefully considered the measure before they
brought it forward, both as regards what they
ought to propose and what they were likely to
carry. Of course, every one'of the questions which
have just been raised is calculated to lead to many
considerations. Our object is to extend the right of
voting as far as possible to a large class of persons,
and to do something, though certainly not much,
in the *ay of adding-to the representation of popu-
lous districts. In doing that we are bound to con-
sider not only what is best to be done if property
and population are taken as the general basis, but
also what can be done in the present state of
affairs. I can only say that all the statements
which have. been made to me shall be duly con-
sidered, but I cannot hold out any hopes that we
should be likely to carry a Bill that went much
further than the present Bill.
Mr. WILSON thanked the noble lord for the
audience he had given to the deputation, and said
lie thought that if the noble lord had ventured to
make a wholesale disfranchisement of small bo-
roughs, he would have met a response from the
large constituencies quite equal to that which had
been accorded to Mr. Gladstone and his budget.
The deputation then retired.

.
spint which is a-secular influence which the Power
must exercise that has become mistress of the
greater portion of the valley (bassin) of the Po.
" This manner of settlement would, moreover,
have the advantage of guaranteeing to Sardinia the
position which is necessary to her in a political
point of view, of satisfying the Legations in an ad-
ministrative point of view, and, in a catholic point
of view, it would constitute a temperament which
we hope would finally satisfy all scruples and con-
sciences. Such a result could not be indifferent
to France, as she could not in principle admit
a radical dismemberment of the States of the Holy
Father, without compensation ; nor can it be in•
different to Sardinia. We shall neglect nothing
that the other Powers, enlightened upon the impos-
sibility of restoring completely the ancient order of
things, and of not taking present necessities into
account, shall exert themselves to make the Pope
understand that such au arrangement, frankly ac-
cepted, would shield all the essential rights of the
Holy See.
" IVhat I have said, M. le Baron, of the necessity
of anticipating the dangers to which Sardinia might
be exposed if she looked for further aggrandise-
meats is more particularly ,applicable to Tuscany.
The idea of the annexation of the Grand Duchy,
that is to say the absorption in another State of a
land gifted with so beautiful and so noble a his-
tory and so attached, hitherto, to its traditions,
cannot assuredly emanate except from an aspira-
tion, the danger of which it is impossible for the
Government of the Emperor to disown, and which
it is far from believing that it is shared by the mass
of the population. That aspiration, there must be
no delusion, whatever may be at the present
moment, I doubt not, the correct intentions of the
Sardinian Government, reveals on the part of those
whom it carries along with it an arricre pcnsee of
a war against Austria for the conquest of Venetia,
and an arricre-pensee, if not of revolution, at least
of menace for the tranquillity of the States of the
Holy See and the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies. It
is impossible to deceive public opinion in Italy or
elsewhere, and the questions which it is our object
to settle, would only be re-opened more embittered
than ever.

"The Government of the Emperor, without over-
looking the difficulties which would remain to be
overcome to secure the triumph of the solution to
which if the Turin Cabinet would assent, it would
devote its most energetic and persevering efforts,
entertains the confidence that those difficulties
would not be insurmountable. Certain, moreover,
of operating upon a basis of a nature to satisfy
completely France and Sardinia, to pacify Italy
for a long period, and not to hurt in too absolute
a manner any of the interests which Europe
has the right and duty morally to watch over, Ile
Government of his Majesty would not only hesitate
to promiie to take in a Conference or Congress the
defence of such an arrangement; but it would pro-
claim it as unattackable, in its opinion, by foreign
intervention. In this hypothesis, then, Sardinia
would be sure of having as with her and behind
her. You are authorised to declare this formally
to Count Cavour.

" Do I need now, M. le Baron, long details to
explain what would be our attitude if the Turin
Cabinet, free in its option, should prefer to run all
the risks which I have pointed out while advising
it to avoid them? The hypothesis in the Govan-
ment of his Sardinian Majesty would have to rely
only on its own forces developes itself, so to say,
naturally, and it would be painful for me to dwell
upon it.

" I therefore confine myself to say, by the Em•
peror's orders, that we will not consent at any price
to take upon ourselves the responsibility of such a
situation. Whatever may be his sympathies for
Italy, and especially for Sardinia, which has min-
gled its bleod with ours, his Majesty would not

hesitate to evince hi firm and decided resolve to
take the interests of France as his sole guidance.
As I have observed to Count do Persigny, to dissi-
pate dangerous illusions is not an abusive restric-
tion of the use which Sardinia and Italy may wish
to make of the liberty which we are proud of having
assisted them in obtaining, and which is finally con-
firmed by the declarations which the Government
of the Emperor has recently obtained from the Court
of Vienna ; it is simply, I repeat it, making gooi
the independence of our policy, and placing it in
safety of complications which we shall not have to
resolve, shc.ald our counsels have been powerless in
preventing them.
" I shall not conclude this despatch, M. le Baron,
without saying a few words to you respecting Savoy
and the county of Nice. The Government of the
Emperer has regretted the premature and out-of-
place discussion of this question in the public jour-
nals ; but it cannot refrain from taking it as the
expression of an opinion which daily gains
in strength and weight. Historical traditions,
which it is needless to recall, have accredited the
idea, that the formation of a more powerful State at
the foot of the Alps would be unfavourable to our
interests, and, although, in the arrangement deve-
loped in this despatch, the annexation of all the
States of Central Italy to Sardinia should not be
complete, it is certain that in the point of view of
external relations it would be equivalent, in
reality, to an analogous result. The same provi-
sions, however distinct they may be, claim the same
guarantees ; end the possession of Savoy and of
the County of Nice, excepting the interests of
Switzerland, which we always desire to take into
account, also presents itself to us in that hypothesis
as a geographical necessity for the safety of our
frontiers.

" You must, therefore, call the attention of Count
Cavour to this point; but you will state to him, at
the same time, that it is not our wish to constrain
the expression of the popular will, and that the
Government of the Emperor, moreover, would not
fail, when the moment shall appear to him to have
arrived, to consult fist the great Powers of Europe,
so as to prevent a false interpretation of the reasons
that would direct his conduct.
" You will please read this despatch to Count
Cavour, and leave him a copy.

THOUVENEL."

" To COUNT PERSIGNY, AMBASSADOR OF FRANCE

AT LONDON.

"PARIS, FEB. 24.

"Monsieur Le Comte,—l have already had the
honour of transmitting to you the two despatches
which M. Le Comte de Rechberg has addressed to
Princh Metternich, and which contain the reply li
of the Cabinet of Vienna to the explanations which
the Emperor had commanded to accompany the
propositions which emanated from the Government
of her Britannic Majesty. I have abstained from
returning with the Ambassador of Austria to judg-
ments, the sincerity of which I in nowise contest,
but which are too far removed from our manner of
viewing the matter to render it useful to attempt
to rectify them.

u I have preferred at once to pay homage to the
sentiments of moderation which have animated
Count Rechberg when, wishing even to repro-
duce the very terms which I had employed, he has
declared that 'if he deplored the divergence of
opinion of our two Courts as to the practical value
of the combination suggested by Lord John Rus-
sell, he clung, nevertheless to the hope of which I
had made myself the interpreter when I laid it
down that if the difference of principles could and
in some cases ought to lead to different ju'lgments,
it was not necessary that the result should be, when
the honour of either side was safe, disastrous con-
flicts and these so far removed from the intentions
both of France and Austria.' Although it was cou-
pled with the assurance that Austria would do jus-
tice to the motives which command the two Powers
to abstain from an armed intervention in Central
Italy, that declaration I admit shuts out all
adhesion on the part of the Cabinet of Vienna to
the use which we mtly make o the latitude which