The Sun.
London, England, 1869-06-30 00:00:00

IMPERIAL EARLI A a 5 EN

HOUSE OF LORDS.—LAST EVENING.
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack

at five o'clock.

THE IRISH CHURCH BILL.
The Earl of DERBY presented five petitions against

the passing of this bill.
Lord LONGFORD presented similar petitions, one being
particularly against tho 67th clause.
The house, at a quarter past five, was not by any means
so fully attended as on the occasion of the second reading
of the bill. Amongst those in front of the throne was Mr.
Gladstone, and shortly after the Premier took up his posi-
tion, Earl Granville, the leader of the Ministerial side,
entered, supporting himself on crutches.
On the mot'on that the house go into committee on this
bill,
The Earl of DENBIGH entered into a general defence
of the Roman Catholics of Ireland from the charges that
had been made against them, and said that they did
not agree to the proposition that was about to

be mule to the house for the placing them on sn

equality with every other portion of her Majesty's sub-
jects. He thought that the proposal was a most gene-
rous one, but he personally should have had much plea-
sure had the Government determined to deal with
the land question befkkre they took into their considera-
tion the position of the Irish Church. Johu Bull had
had two marriages; by the first he had left a
Catholic family, and by the second a Protestant one ; and,
as these marriages generally result, the first get the rod,
whilst those of the second get all the pleasure ; in other
words, one gets the kicks, the othor the halfpence. The
Catholics of Ireland were not insensible to kindness.
The noble earl asked what would be the effect upon the
loyalty of the Roman Catholics if it were thrown out. He
(the Earl of Denbigh) did not think that it would weaken
the loyalty 01 the latter class, because with them loyalty is
an instinct and a religious duty. It had been said that in
voting for the present bill the Catholics were voting
against their principles, but he could not assent to that.
The Roman Catholics regarded the bill as a real act of
justice, as it removed the badge of conquest and abolished
Protestant aseen3ancy.
The house then went into committee on the bill.
On the motion that the preamble be pOstponed,
Earl GREY objected most strenuously to such a pro-
posal, as the preamblo referred to the disposal of the
surplus and ether matters, with respect to
which notice bad Wen given of amendments.
It was said that the great object the Government had in
view in pressing forward the bill was to restore happi-
ness to a great portion of the Roman Catholic subjects
of her Majesty in Ireland, but he could not
think that that object would be obtained by stripping
the Established Church in Ireland of every farthing it
possessed, beyond that with which the bare necessaries
were to be supplied. He strongly objected to various
parts of the bill, more particularly the 68th claase, which
carried out the disendowment of the Church most
thoroughly, but ho contended the proper course to adopt
was to discuss what was to bo done with the surplus pro-
perty of the Church before they proceeded to discuss what
the other provisions of the bill were. The time had now
arrived when it was most important that they should say
whether they were going to adopt the voluntary principle,
because from the many statements that had been made it
could not be clearly ascertained what was proposed to be
done. He could not say, from what he had been able to
learn with respect to the voluntary principle, that the
position of the Church in the United States showed the
benefit of such a step ; on the contrary, if there had
been any doubt at all with respect to the advantage
of a State support being giCen to the Church, that doubt
would at once disappear when the matter was tested by
the position of the Church in Amer:ca.
"Lord GRANVILLE regretted the multiplicity a
amendments of which notice had been given, and the

effect of which would he to exhaust the whole surplus.
But he could not perceive how Lord Grey's proposition
would avoid that source of perplexity, and lie appealed to
Lord Grey to withdraw it.

After a short discussion,
Lord GREY withdrew his oppoSitiOn, and the preamble
was Accordingly postponed. -
In clause 2 and elsewhere,
The Archbishop of CAINTERBITRY moved to insert
1872 for 1871. The amendment was resisted by Lord
Granville, on the ground that delay would bo prejudicial
to the Irish Church itself. It was supported by Lord
Cairns. After remarks by the Duke of Leinsfer and Lords
Carnarvon aad Denman, the amendment was agreed to on
a division by 130 to 71.
The Duke of BUTLAND then moved the omission of
the clause, in which lie was vehemently supported by the
Bishop of Lichfield, to whom the Bishop of Oxford re-
plied with equal vehemence. After observations by
Lords Stanhope, Chelmsford, Lyttelton, Cairns, and Lif-
ford, the amendment was negatived without a division.
Lord MONCK'S amendments—that in clause 4 the ap-
peal from one Commissioner should be to three Commis-
sioners; in clause 5, that the Commissioners should have
power, without the Lord-Lieutenant's consent, to appoint
and remove their officers; excepting the Secretary ; and
in clause 6, which empowerS the Commissioners to pay all
incidental expenses of carrying the Act into execution,,
that they should be authorised t }pay also the expenses of
any claimant in establishing a claim under the Act—were
agreed to.
In clause 7, Lord Wet.tbur3's amendments --to substitute
"which it may be necessary" for "which they may deem
it t xpedient or necessary," and to insert "due" before
"execution of their powers"— were accepted by the Go-
vernment. His amendments to refuse the Commissioners
the power of committing for contempt was resisted by
Lord Penzance, the Lord Chancellor, and Lord Romilly,
E trl Granville, and Lord Halifax, and supported by
Lord Chelmsford, the Bishop of Peterborough, and
Lord Cairns. .And after a lung discussion a compro-
mise, suggested by Lord Cairns, was accepted, and
the words, "in the Fresence of the Commissioners," or
any of them, sitting in open Court," were agreed to be
added after the words "guilty of contempt." Lord West-
bury did not press his proposed amendment, in the same
clause, to give an appeal from the decisions of the Com-
missioners, or soy two, to the Court of Chancery Appeal
in Ireland.
CI:11-.8e 8 was amended accordirg to a suggestion by
Lord CAIRNS, and so amended was agreed to, as was
also clause 9, Lord Westbury not pressing his amend-
ment to reduce the Commissioners' term of office from ten
to five years.
Progress was reported, after clause 10 had been
agreed to.
Their lordships adjourned at 25 minutes past twelve
o'clock.

HOUSE OF CONINIONS.—LAST EVENING.
The SPEAKER took the chair at two o'clock.
IMPRISONMENT FOR DEBT BILL.

On this bill being considered, the ATTORNEY-
GENERAL moved the insertion of a clause waking the
act applicable to the Vexatious Indictment Act, and to
provide for the case of a justice of the peace becoming
bankrupt or arranging with his creditor, in which event
he should become incapable as a justice of the peace for

five years.
The new clauses were agreed to.
Mr. Sergeant SIMON moved the omission of the first
paragraph in clause 5, which instituted an entire new sys-
tem of jurisprudence. The enactment of the fifth clause
perilled a man's liberty, for the proviso, as it stood on
affidavit, might be cooked up in an attorney's office be-
hind the unfortunate man's back, and thus he might be
kept in prison for the space of 40 doys.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL opposed the motion.
The clause bad bceu discussed three times by the house
in committee, and the object of it was merely to sustain
the county court jurisdiction which was extended by the
bill to the superior courts. If the clause was omitted ho
thought they might as well give up the bill and take no
further trouble in the matter. - _ _

Mr. HADFIELD thought it would be worth the while
of the custodians of thepublic revenue to pay many of the
miserable debts of a few shillings for which people might
be sent to prison under this act, rather than incur the
expense of maintaining the poor creatures in prison for
the term sot out in the act.
After a short discussion the proposition was negatived.
Several other amendments having been discussed, the
bill was ultimately ordered to be read a third time.
UNIVERSITY TESTS BILL.

On the motion for the house going into committee on
this bill, Mr. C. BENTINCS moved that the house re-
solve itself into committee that day three months.
The house ultimately went into committee on the bill
without a division, Mr. G. Hardy intimating that he would
take a division on clause 6, audit was carried by 121 —216
t)93.
The further progress of the Lill was then postponed.

until Friday.
On the reassembling of the house at nine o'clock, Mr.
G. MOORE called attention to the case of the Fenian con-
victs still in confinement for political offences, and moved
a resolution to the effect that it is the duty of the Govern-
ment to institute a public inquiry into the penal discipline
of our prisons, for the purpose of a better classification of
prisoners; distinguishing the tried from the untried, and
those who might be charged with offences from those who,
under exceptional circumstances, might be temporarily
detained without any specific charge having been pre-
ferred against them ; ann that it should form part of the
inquiry how far political offenders should be regarded as
a separate class, aLd how far the severity of the punish-
ment to which the political convicts have been already
subjected might be regarded as reasonable grounds for a
favourable consideration-in their case.
After a short discussion the subject dropped, and the
house adjourned.

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