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London, England, 1860-03-27 00:00:00

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on the table ^of the house, which we have failed in ifo*
ng
and that there was a very animated discussion between the
First Lord of the Treasury and the French ambassador
respecting the affairs of Morocco. I can tell the right hon.
gentleman that I never heard of. that discussion, nor .do I
think that any warm discussion has occurred between this
Government and the Government of France with respect
to the. Spanish expedition to Morocco. We thought the
war was an unnecessary war on the part of Spain; that
opinion was very ill taken by Spain, but it gives me '
mush
pleasure to say that I believe that war is now approaching
a termination. (Cheers.) Then, with regard to China, the
right hon. gentleman ;says we asked for the assistance of
the French in China, and that we were told they would only
give that assistance if we assisted the French policy in
Italy, and that a bargain was thereupon made. That is
another specimen of imagination on the part of the right hon.
gentleman; but whether it is his own, or whether he has
picked it up from some of those telegrams which fly about the
world, and have little authority, I know not ; but at all
events the house should not be misled by taking everything
for certain that•the right hon. gendeman said. Then with
respeCt to this great and important question of Savoy, I
have more than once told the houso the state of our infor-
mation on that subject. I told the house what had passed
between our ambassador in Faris and the French Foreign
Minister, and what our Minister at Turin had reported of
his conversation with the Minister of France. I never con-
sidered myself bound to vouch far everything that was so
reported. The right hon. gentleman says that I assured
the house to its very great satisfaction not only that the
Emperor of the French would consult the great Powers of
Enrope, but that he would be guided by their opinion. The
noble lord the member for Leicestershire endeavoured to
extract from me an opinion whether the Emperor of the
French intended to consult the great Powers of Earope in
the sense of explaining to them his views with regard to
Savoy, and then to act as he thought fit, or whether he
meant to abide by the decisions he might receive. Not
being certain myself, I never could state to the noble lord
in what sense the Emperor of the French meant to consult
them ; but the very moment I received a despatch explain-
ing in what sense that consultation was to be made I came
down to the house and told them I thought it was intended
in the sense of exposing the reasons of the Emperor of the
French, but at the same time not supposing the great
Powers should decide upon the question, but that the Em-
peror himself should decide. Well, as regards that subject
I said, Isewever, that I thought if it met with the
unanimous disapproval of the great Powers—if tba rennet
the Emperor of the French meant to pursue with respect to
the annexation of Savoy they should feel was an alarming
step for France to take, and might betoken future aggres •
siou, I did not believe that that plan would be proceeded
with. Whether I was right or wrong in that opinion cannot
now be ascertained, but I know that with respect to the
great Powers the Austrian Government said in the first
instance that the annexation of Savoy to France was net
worse, at all events, than the annexation of the Grand
Duchy of Tuscany to Sardinia, and that it was a question
in which they had less interest. But we know besides that
the Emperor of Russia has said that it was free to the King
of Sardinia to give away his own province, and that it was
free for the Emperor of the French to receive it ; and there-
fore it was impossible that a foreign sovereign could inter-
fere. Well, then, I say with regard to any opinion that we
might give, we could not expect that it should have the
same weight as if it had been the opinion of the four Powers
unanimously given and expressed—if not in the same terms,
in terms of strong disapprobation. The right hon. gentle-
man scents to think that we are ashamed of the despatch we
sent in answer to that of M. Thouvenel. I can assure him
the Government are not at all ashamed of that despatch,
and when it is produced I think this house will be of opinion
that we have no reason to be ashamed of it, (Hear.) But,
then, sir, there are other questions connected with this sub-

non-production of that despatch ? We are told it would
subject the Government to hostile criticisms. But any cri-
ticism that might follow the despatch would naturally fol-
low from its character and spirit. (Hear.) If it be a de-
spatch in harmony with English sentiments and feelings,
no criticism need be feared, and the very fact of its being
kept from our sight in order to shun criticism is not to my
mind at all, favourable to that despatch. (Hear.) But, while
we are not allowed to learn the nature of the despatch from
our own Government, a description of it—but, I hope, not
a true one—has been given to the world in the journals of
France. (Hear.) The character given of it is exactly that
which the enemies of the Government abroad, and those
who wish to make a tool of our Government, would give ;
but it is a protest couched in friendly terms. (Hear, and a
laugh.) M. Thcuvenel wrote a despatch, but he did not
Tear criticism, and why ? Because the Emperor of the
French knew that, by the publication of his despatch, he
would produce a great effect upon Europe—that he would
depress Germany—he would (or at• least he hoped he
would) dispirit Switzerland—he would cow Savoy, and
coerce Sardinia. But while the people of Europe are look-
ing for the counteracting despatch from this country stating
what is the spirit and policy of England, we are told that
that despatch is to be kept back for fear the English public
might indulge in disagreeable criticisms. (Hear.) Now,
there is one indication, and I hope the only one, of a plea
which is put forward in some quarters. that the action of
the French Government has been precipitated by the dis-
cussions in this house. I can imagine how that might be
in one case. I can imagine the Emperor saying to his
Council, As long as the House of Commons is weak and
docile, neglecting its own interaets, choosing to leave this
question entirely in the hands of their Government, we
may proceed at our leisure, because they will do the work
as well as ourselves." (Hear,) But," he may Fay, " I
see notices of motions by independent members of the house
which, if carried, may be very, embarrassing to the plan we
are pursuing. It may rouse Germany, may inspirit
Switzerland, may encourage Savoy, and may thwart and
-discourage the policy of France, and therefore it is for our
interest' to move rapidly, and to anticipate events which
might be very inconvenient for us," I hold that the
rule which ought to guide 'this house towards the Go-
vernment in relation to its foreign negotiations is a very
simple one, and one that cannot be mistaken, and I hope
the house will lay down some rule for itself by which it
will vindicate the high privilege it enjoys of free speech
concerning the Government at home and Governments
abroad. The rule I take to be this—when complications
arise and danger threatens, it is right to leave unfettered the
course of the Government, and generously to conclude that
the threatened evils may not be zealised, and that the Go-
vernment may be able to avert the threatened danger. But
it is a different thing when the opposing Power is not diplo-
matizing merely, but is acting. (Hear, hear.) When that
occurs the point for Parliamentary interference has passed
by. This question of the annexation of Savoy has passed
through a succession of phases, each of which has been of
itself an act, and from the first disavowal of the design to
the last apparent accomplishment of it, the artifices, the
frauds of diplomacy, have one by one been superseded by
more effective action. The Emperor has made a speech
avowing the accomplishment 'of that design, the Minster
has written despatches to Europe in the same spirit, troops
have been marched to Savoy, ships of war have appeared off
Nice, and the event is actually accomplishing at the very
moment when her Majesty's Government think they are
still negotiating about it, and ask us still to forbear, to have
that confidence in them which they had in the Emperor of
France—(hear, hear)—and even at the eleventh hour Savoy
might be saved. I must say, recollecting what occurred last
session as to the relations between this house and the Go-
vernment, that, contrasting the course taken by the hon.
member for Bridgwater with that pursued by the Govern-
ment, the contrast is as favourable to the one as it is unfa-
vourable to the other. The accuracy of my hon. friend, his,
early information, his predictions of danger to be appre-
hended, the consequences which he said might follow, but
which might be averted, the warnings he gave of events that'
hava since occurred, combined with the earnestness and
moderation of his statements, all, I think, contrast most
favourably with the conduct of the Government—their
apparent ignorance, their reluctance to give information,
their evasion of discussion, their blindness to events 'that
are happening, and of which they have been warned.
(Hear, hear.) I think my hon. friend is, for the past, en-
titled to the thanks of the house, and, for the future, to its
confidence, and support ; but our experience makes it im-
perative upon us to watch vigilantly every single move-
ment of the Government, and to inquire into every act of
theirs in these negotiations, in which lam bound to say
neither in courage nor in duplicity can they rival their
imperial ally. (Hear.) So far as regards our relations with
the Government at home; but there is another question.
What is to be the limit of our privilege of free speech in this
house (hear, hear), in criticizing the policy and the acts of
Governments abroad ? In the course of last session, when
I had occasion to enter at great length into the question of
our relations with France upon the subject of our national
defences, I laid down a rule which I have always observed
when discussing the policy and acts of the Emperor of the
French. I said then that the Emperor is the chosen of the
French people; they trust him, they admire him, they
obey him, they think him a great benefactor to them, and,
from a French point of view, he is entitled to their grafi-
tnde and respect, and, as far as his acts relate to the internal
government of France, we have no business to make any
remarks. (Heir, hear.) But I 'said, as to his external
policy, it was the duty of this house never to take off its
eyes from that policy. I described that policy as one of
war, aggrandisement, and aggression. (Hear, hear.) Two
of these have been already fulfilled—the aggression has
taken place, the aggrandisement as in course of accomplish-
ment, and who can say how distant is the war? (Hear.)
During the administration of the noble viscount, and under
the very peculiar, and I might say unprecedented, existing
relations between him and the French Emperor, there has
been a new doctrine laid down—that we must frame our
speeches, not according to what we consider to be for thein-
terest of England, but according to what may not Le hurtful
to the feelings of the Emperor. That is a doctrine which I
hope this house will at once and for ever repudiate and set at
rest. (Hear, hear.) As to the Emperor, his views, and our
manner of discussing them, I think our course is clear. As
long as the Emperor refrained from action, I think it was
right and reasonable to give him credit for honourable
motives, but when it is notorious to all the world, except to
the members of the Cabinet, that he is proceeding to
the accomplishment of his designs, then I say it
would be not merely folly but hypocrisy on our parts
if we were not to characterise as it deserves the
policy he has pursued. Silence in such a ease implies indif-
ference, if not worse—our complicity. Can it be said for a
moment that because we are characterising, as we believe it
deserves, the policy of the Emperor of the French, that we
are doing that which is irritating ? I say we are acting in
self-defence. It is the only way to bring him before the
only tribunal which be dreads. He cannotcomplain that in
the Parliament of England his policy is discussed, and the
Ministers of England should be the first to vindicate the
right of free speech which is the highest privilege we can
possess, and with which we will never part. (Hear, hear.)
At this time any attempt to suppress the expression of opi-
nion here, when Ministers cannot defend facts, would re-
duce us to a system of weakness, and justify the imputation
that is made abroad against us of unworthy sycophancy;
and the more adulation is heaped upon the Emperor of the
French from that (the Ministerial) bench, the more neces-
sary it is that truth should be heard from other quarters.
(Hear.) It is for that reason that I vindicate in this assem-
bly the right of free speech, which there has been an undue
attempt to fetter, and that in the exercise of my privilege as
a member of this house I denounce the recent policy of the
Emperor of the French in Italy as a policy of deceit. (Cries
of " Hear, hear.") I say that he has deceived the English
Ministers, and has made them his tools for deceiving the
English Parliament. (Cheers.) I say that he has treated
them with a duplicity which they had not the candour to
avow, and with a contempt which they had not the spirit to
resent. (Renewed cheers.) And, speaking of his proceedings
in Savoy and Sardinia, and the manner in which he has an-
nounced his policy to Europe, I say he has added insolence
to aggression, and perfidy to injustice. (Cheers.) Am Ito
be rebuked from that bench (pointing to the Treasury bench)
for this language ? Whicl look around that'bench, and I
see such an array of Ministers as never sat there before, so
associated with parliamentary censures and of " horrible
and heartrending" disasters. (Cheers.) In 1855 there
was a Cabinet occupying that bench apparently stronger
than the present, and with quite as reliable a
majority, though I don't think it was quite so intolerant of
all who differed from them as the majority which sits be-
hind them ; but in one night a storm of indignation arose,
and the Cabinet, by an unprecedented majority, ceased to
exist. In 1858 the noble viscount was at the head of a still
stronger Cabinet, but it was stated openly that he had
truckled to France, and because he had done so he was cen-
sured, and his Cabinet was swept away. And now I would
warn those who would attempt to fetter the freedom of
speech in this house, that the spirit which on two occasions
came to the rescue and vindicated the honour and interests
of nations is still alive, and it may inflict a third penalty as
sudden and more severe than any which has preceded it.
(Cheers.)

ject, especially one that must be of great importance to
Europe, and to this country, as a free country, to this Par-
liament as a free Parliament, must be one of surpassing inte •

rest,—l mean that which is connected with the indepen-
dence and neutrality of Switzerland. (Cheers.) Some days
after the despatch of Thouvenel we received a represen-
tation from the Government of Switzerland complaining
of the disposition about to be made with regard to the
neutralised territory of Savoy. This, sir, is a question
of a different nature, because, with regard to Savoy, it
may be said, as with regard to Tuscany, it was part

of the settlement of Europe in 1815 that Savoy should
_ _

belong to Sardinia, and that Tuscany should belong to ths
_ _

Grand Duke of Tuscany ; but there was no guarantee on
the part of the other Powers with regard to the possession
of Tuscany by the Grand Duke and of Savoy by the King
of Sardinia ; and therefore the transfer by the King of Sar-
dinia of his rights over Savoy to the Emperor of the French
is a question on which those Powers may or may not think
. .

it right to remonstrate or go further. nut, with regard to
the independence of Switzerland, that is a matter of interest

to all Europe, being guaranteed by the great Powers of

Europe. (Cheers.) Indeed, not only is the territory belong-
ing to the Confederation guaranteed, but there is a part of
Savoy which is declared to be neutralised, and with regard
to which it is provided that, if warshould break out between
the neighbouring Powers, the troops of the King of Sar-

dinia shall evacuate that territory, and a Swiss military
force shall hold it till the termination of the war. (Cheers.)
NOW, it is obvious that the transfer of that territory from the
King of Sardinia to the Emperor of the French is a great

change in the condition of that territory ; and, though not
within the letter of the treaty, it does bear—it may be in-

directly—in a very important respect upon the independence
of Switzerland. (Cheers.) For that reason, as M. Thouvesel

has applied, on the part of the Emperor of the French, to
the various Powers of Europe, and has received, as the

French Government say, favourable answers fromaeveral

of those Powers, so, on the other hand, Switzerland has ap-
plied to the Powers of Europe with a view to maintain her

neutrality intact, and with a view to her future indepen-
dence. (Cheers.) Now, this is a question which doss not re
quire merely an answer on our part to the despatch of M.
Thouvenel, but, in the opinion of the Government, it does
require that we should endeavour to ascertain what was the
opinion at Vienna, what the opinion at Berlin, and what
may be the opinion at St.Petersburgupon this subject. We

have ascertained, so far, that without any decided course
of conduct being agreed upon, the Courts of Berlin and
Vienna do attach the highest importance to the neutrality

of Switzerland—(cheers); and we see by what has appeared

in the newspapers to-day—of which we also received a snm-
___ _

mary in our despatches, that the Powers of Europe will be
called upon to say whether the position of Switzerland be
safe under the treaty made by the Emperor of the French and
the King of Sardinia. (Cheers.) Well, I will say that I

do not think this is a negotiation that could be carried on

by this house as a body. Ido not think that the members

of this house, voting by a majority, could undertake to make
the communications that must be made to Berlin, that must

be made to Vienna, and to see whether, with Vienna and
Berlin together, we may not obtain some co-operation with
the Court of Russia. (Hear.) The right hon. gentleman
despises our ability. He thinks we are objects of contempt
to the Emperor of the French ; and so far as we are concerned
the right hon. gentleman thinks there should be a vote of
want of confidence ; but this house has not taken from us
its confidence—(hear, hear)—and till such vote takes place
we shall think ourselves entitled to carry on this negotia-
tion and place before the house, when concluded, its results.
For these reasons, Sir, I have, meanwhile, withheld the
answer to M. Thouvenel's despatch. Ido not follow the
right hon. gentleman in his depreciation of the character of
the Emperor of the French ; but the course pursued, as I
expected, and as I said from the first, frankly and fairly to
the French Government, has already produced a great deal
of distrust. (Cheers.) I believe myself that if when the war
was begun last year the Emperor of the French and the
King of Sardinia had said openly to the world, " The King
of Sardinia has to sustain a great war against the empire of
Austria; he cannot sustain it alone ; the Emperor of the
French has determined to help him, but the Emperor of
the French expects, and has stipulated by treaty with the
King of Sardinia, that if the territories of that King are
very much increased in Italy that portion of the territories
of the King close neighbouring on France and on the
French side of the Alps shall be given to the Emperor
of the French"—if that bargain had been declared, I
will not say what amount of indignation would have
been entertained in regard to it ; but I must say, looking
to the circumstances with which it has been attended, espe-
cially after the declaration of the Sardinian Government
that they would neither sell, exchange, nor surrender this
territory—(loud cheers)—the course that has been pursued
has produced great distrust in this country—(cheers)—and
I believe it will produce great distrust all over Europe.
(Cheers.) Sir, I very much doubt whether strong resolu-
tions, or even strong language, on the part of this house
would have produced any great effect upon the legitimate
issue of this affair. We have been told that the language
held in this house made it necessary for the French nation
to insist on their Government doing what has been done.
That is rather a pretext than a true representation. It is
evident that it is a plausible pretext to say, "We would
have negotiated or conceded this point, but the insulting
language used is such that our honour is at stake and we
can no longer give way." I say that is a plausible pre.
text ; but, be this as it may, there has been declared from
the beginning of these discussions, immediately after the
first debate that took place in the House of Lords, that,
although strong language might be used on the subject,
i te
ennt tl
omi 1 a ofn
tghoeiningemtobv,er-arfoorn
sactrcoouund tsaoicif iita.
The rig
;The
ts
hnoon.
one of his speeches that we might be quite sure no man in
this house wished to go to war for Savoy ; now, if there had
been entire liberty to the Government to negotiate on thin
subject—although certainly they would not have threat-
ened war—although they would still less have pledged the
Government and the country to go to war, still it is diffe-
rent not saying anything on the subject, and declaring
from the commencement of the negotiations that whatever
may be the issue we will not go to war. (Hear, hear.)
Sir, my opinion as I declared it in July and January I have
no objection now to repeat—that such an act as the en.
nexation of Savoy is ono that will lead a nation so warlike
as the French to call upon its Government from time to
time to commit other acts of aggression—(hear, hear).—
and, therefore, I do feel that, however we may wish to
live on the most friendly terms with the French Govern-
ment—and certainly I do wish to live on the most friendly
terms with that Government—(cheers)—we ought not to
[ContiAlled ill Our fourth page,l

Lord J. RUSSELL, who on rising was received with
cheers, said—The right hon. gentleman has raised up a great
many spectres, with which he has fought much more than
he has combated with any reality that exists. (A laugh.)
First of all he supposes that we have been continually com-
plaining of the freedom of speech in this house, and endea-
vouring to suppress it. That is an entire imagination on
the part of the right hon. gentleman—(cheers)—and I think
he has given us to-night a tolerable specimen of the man-
ner in which the freedom of speech may be exercised, whe-
t her as to Ministers at home or Sovereigns abroad. (Cheers.)
The right hon. gentleman, indeed, has imagined that we
have been continually rebuking the house for the freedom
with which they speak of foreign affairs. I don't think that
we have so presumed with regard to the freedom of speech
in this house. I think, on the contrary, with regard to
gentlemen opposite, we have every reason to be satisfied
with the forbearance that has been shown, and with the

•
unwillingness they have displayed to enter upon any
general discussion of foreign affairs, or, at all events,
to impede the action of negotiations that might
be actually pending. (Hear, hear.) I thought at one
time the language of the hon. gentleman the member
for Horsham unbecoming the position he had held and
the responsibility that must attach to his words, but on a
subsequent occasion the hon. gentleman made a speech full
of moderation and, if he will allow me to say, of good in-
tention, and I have no reason to find fault with him. But
I must say that, as the right hon. gentleman the member
fur Stroud has given us much warning and advice, and so
much objurgation, I may be permitted to give him one
piece of advice—that, seeing there is on the other side of
the house an indisposition to enter upon any violent course
of opposition, or any factious misrepresentation, I wonder
that he does not himsolf take his place on the front seat of
the Opposition bench—(Ministerial cheers)—and endeavour
to show to the shame of the right hon. gentlemen opposite
what faction can effect. (Renewed cheers.) The right hen.
gentleman has certainly imagined a good many anecdotes
with which I was perfectly unacquainted. He tells us with
respect to Morocco that we had igterided to lay the papere