The Sun.
London, England, 1856-04-30 00:00:00

nate thing was our treatment of the Turks. Let the house
conceive the position of General Williams. Suppose our am-
bassador at Paris had been instructed to procure an order to
be sent out to the French general, saying, " You must dis-
miss General Bosquet or General Canrobert," the thing could
not have been tolerated for a moment. There was no doubt Lord
Stratford was placed in a difficult position. He had a groat
political question to work; he had great concessions to ob-
tain from the Turkish Government ; and the house must re-
member that it would have very much impeded his policy
and weakened his influence if he had kept continually going
to the Turkish Government, saying, " You must dismiss)
Pacha This or Pacha That." (Hear, hear.) He meant not
to say that these men were not most culpable ; but the posi-
tion of our ambassador and of the Turkish Government must
be taken into consideration. Though he had felt strongly
on the subject of Kars on reading this blue-book, he thought
that Lord Clarendon was not much to blame. He had exer-
cised considerable energy and forethought, and had exerted
himself to do as much as he could for General Williams. He
might not have taken the right line in all cases, but that he
meant to do it no one could doubt. (Hear.) He (Mr. Lay-
arc!) might on many occasions have gone against the feeling
of the house in the course he had taken, but he appealed to
the house to do him the justice to saythat he had never given
a factious vote. He should not give one now. He thought
that the charge made by Mr. Whiteside was far too wide.
(Hear.) To charge the fall of Kars solely on the want of fore-
sight and energy of tie British Government alone was most
unfair. No notice whatever was taken of France ; after all,
France might have had some share in the fall of Kars. (Hear,
hear.) Had this motion been drawn up in different terms
he might have supported it. I That the Government
had bad faults he confessed. He charged them with them ;
they knew his feeling on the subject ; but he felt that he could
not vote for this motion without violating his conscientious
feeling. (Hear.)
Mr. MAGUIRE said be stood there as an independent
member, and he could stand up and speak the truth. (Great
laughter.) He would speak the truth without any reserve
or mental reservation whatever. (Laughter.) He thought
that Mr. Layard had struck a fatal blow at his character by
the speech he had just made. In the eyes pf the country
Lord Stratford de Redcliffe was the great offsa der. One word
as to Lord Aberdeen and the Duke of Newcastle. For the
Duke of Newcastle he entertained no personal respect what-
ever. (Laughter.) But the despatch of the Duke of New-
castle was much better than the contemptible one written by
the hon. gentleman, Mr. Peel, which was a disgrace to the
Government from whom it emanated. Mr. Layard had at-
tempted to acquit Lord Stratford altogether. (" No, no,"
from Mr. Layard.) The hon. member said that Lord Stratford
had been toe heavily dealt with. By whom ? The country
woulduot speak with that delicate and oriental reserve which
Mr. Layard u-ed. (Laughter.) He bore the most unmiti-
gated respect—(great laughter)—for General Williams ;ho
had set an example to all the generals of the Crimea ; he was
the great hero of the age, and he would have been the saviour
of Kars but for the misconduct of Lord Stratford. Lord
Stratford had the power of doing service in Kars had he given
his countenance and support to General Williams in time.
He charged Lord Stratford de Redcliffe with not doing his
duty in this respect. Well, then, they could not sufficiently
admire the heroism of General Williams and the other offi-
cers who surrounded him, and that they ought not to adopt
the language of honourable gentlemen who said that Lord
Stratford de Recicliffe's not sending them relief was only
unfortunate. Lord Stratford de Redcliffe was unworthy of
the position that he held. If he had the power why did he
not exercise it ? Where was the power that used to strike ter-
ror into the Sultan's heart, and into the heart of every Eng-
lishman in the East ? Why was it not exercised in support
of men who would have triumphed if they had been worthily
supported ?
Sir W. HE ATHCOTE said the position of this question had
been so changed this evening, that he hoped the house would
bear with him a few minutes while he stated the reason why
he thought they should adopt the amendment of his hon.
friend the member for Berkshire, rather than vote for the
affirmative or the negative of the motion of the hon. and
learned member for Enniskillen. In the early part of the
evening the hon. and learned member for Leominster moved
an amendment, and directed their indignation against Lord
Stratford de Redcliffe, but he subsequently withdrew that
amendment, and upon that his hon. friend the member for
Berkshire moved his amendment, which in effect was the
previous question. He was unwilling to vote, if he could
avoid it, a strong censure on the,subject, because ho was not
aware how far the unfortunate event was or was not attended
by important consequences, and the argument of the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer was that no damage was done. Then
he thought that in a war conducted as this was, with alli-
ances, and with numberless complications, the result of those
alliances, there was great difficulty, and he was willing, if
possible, to treat the Government with generosity. Ho would
rather abstain from It, for the reasons he had stated, and
also because the question was mixed up with reflections on
our allies. And, lastly, he thought the vote would be mis-
taken. If the hon. and learned gentleman's resolutions should
be negatived it would go out to the country that many, who
in point of fact agreed with him, did not do so, because they
would vote on the ground he bad indicated. If he was called
upon ae a juryman to pronounce a verdict of guilty or not
guilty, he should give his verdict of guilty.
Mr. WARNER, who spoke amid repeated cries for a divi-
i sion, referred to Lord Stratford, and said no censure could
be too strong for his reckless and heartless inhumanity to-
wards General Williams and those brave men shut up in Kars.
No parallel to his conduct could be found except in the pro-
ceedings of some of those high military authorities who had
been honoured and loaded by favours because they sacrificed
our army in the Crimea by their incapacity and stolid presump-
tion. He trusted that the attack now made on the Govern-
ment would be repelled by an overwhelming majority. The
motion was a most unjust one, and it was brought forward
at the very time when the news was received of the ratifica-
tion of an honourable peace achieved by the Minister against
whom the hon. and learned member for Enniskillen now
directed his blow.
Mr. Sergeant SURE next addressed the House, though
there were numerous calls for Sir B. Lytton, who rose at the
same time. The hon, and learned gentleman applauded the
noble lord at the head of the Government for the courage and
vigour with which ho had prosecuted the war at a time
when the brows of the nation were contracted with doubt
and woe ; and ho urged him to throw over the amendment,
and to insist upon a decision on the main question, feeling
confident that that decision would result in a triumphant
vindication of the policy which the Government had pur-
sued. (Hear, home)
Sir B. LYTTON moved the adjournment of the debate.
(Loud el.' es of " No, no !" and "Divide !" from the Minis-
terial side of the House.)
Lord PALMERSTON—I cannot help expressing my sur-
prise at the motion which has just been made. (Cheers
from the Ministerial benches.) The subject has now been
discussed for two nights. (Hear, hear.) The house must
have pretty nearly made up its mind upon it ; and though
there may be members still left of sufficient talent to adorn
the subject, and whose researches migkt, no doubt, be
useful as guides to the house, yet upo/i. every occasion
of a great and important debate it is impossible
that every man who may be entitled to speak
should have an opportunity of doing se. (Loud cheers.)
The decision of the house, I am sure, as it is to bo collected
from the expressions of hon. members, is that we ought to-
night to come to a decision upon this question. (Renewed
cheering.) I can quite understand that that party who have
in another place shrunk from this motion, daunted evidently
by the speech of the mover of this resolution, may wish to
shrink and escape from .a division here also. (Cheers.) We
will not lend ourselves to such invitations. We are hero
prepared to sit till the latest hour of the morning to which
our discussions can extend. (Cheers.) I will take the sense
of the house to-night ; and I have no hesitation whatever in
expressing my conviction that the result will be the rejection
by a large majority of the motion of the hon. and learned
member for Enniskillen. (Cheers.)
Mr. DISRAELI- I myself came down to the house in the
hope and expectation that a division would have been taken
on the mo'ion of my hon. and le trned friend to-night ; but,
after the amendment of the hon. gentleman opposite, I saw
directly that there was a new feature introduced into the
debate—(" Oh, oh !" from the Ministerial side of the house)
—and that there was less chance than I could desire of the
division taking place to-night. (Renewed cries of " Oh !"
and ironical cheering from the Ministerialists.) Let me recall
the attention of hon. gentlemen who treat this point with so
much levity to what is the real cause of our not dividing to-
night. It is that gentlemen put forward amendments on, the
paper without due reflection and without intending to act
upon them. (Cheers from the Opposition and " Oh, oh !"
from the Government side of the house ) This course of
proceeding disturbs the mind of the house, and prevents that
arrangement of debate which it is by mutual consent conve-
nient generally to adopt. It is notorious to everybody that
if the hon. and learned member for Leominster had not given
notice of an important amendment—which it appears now
that he never intended to bring forward—my hon. friend the
member for Dorsetshire !would yesterday have brought for-
ward his amendment; we should then have had the questions
fairly before the house ; they would liar° been discussed,
and we should have divided to-night. I think. therefore,
that the tone of the noble lord is not authorised by what has
occurred. The position iu which we find ourselves is en-
tirely attributable to one of his own supporters having given
notice of an important amendment which, as it appears, was
not made in any spirit of seriousness, and which has led ano-
ther gentleman now to move an amendment which otherwise
would have been brought forward yesterday. I shall support
my here friend the member for Hertfordshire in his fair and
reasonable proposition that this debate should be adjourned ;
and as the noble lord boasts of his power of sitting up, I tell
him that he will find me ready also in my place, and that I
will not rest till I obtain for my lion. friend that opportunity
of recording his views upon this subject to which he is en-
titled. (Cheers.) If the speech of my hon. friend would con-
clude the debate, I am sure that lie would not flinch for a
moment from coming forward; but allow me to say that
there is another individual, the noble lord, to whom I should
listen with much interest, and if I icay refer to a much hum-
bler individual, I think that I myself might prefer some claim
to make a few comments on the subject. Perhaps, too, the
hon. and learned gentleman who has been the subject of so
much criticism this evening may not wish to relinquish his le-
gitimate privilege of reply. Is it unreasonable, then, in these
circumstances, to ask the house at half-past 12 o'clock to ad-
journ' (Cheers.) Bnt that is not all. Are we not to be fa-
voured with the opinions of the noble lord the member for
London I The counsel which he gave and the policy which he
expressed have been brought forward as the very foundation
of the policy which the Government have pursued, and are we
not to hear from himself the views of the noble lord ? There are
also other distinguished statesmen in this house whose opinion
upon this subject may be looked forward to with greatinterest,
and therefore I think that the noble lord has assumed a tone
not at all befitting the occasion. (Cheers.) It is not altoge-
ther an unusual tone with the noble lord, but in my opinion
it is a most unwarrantable ono, and I assure the noble lord
that
it lea tone to which I for one will never succumb.
The house then divided, when the numbers were—
tor the adjournment 173
The Bahlmt lt
announcement24..3
Ministerial benches.
Mf
the numbers was received —7owith loud
cheering from the
Din. MALINS then
o—-
s amid loud cries of " Bulwer,
Bulwer," and moved tbarr, the
taottz a
e do now adjourn.
wasL opric.lepPoAreLd3ltEo PALMERSTON—_I
here I
three h e
or
fourshort
hourstime
iang
order
rtdhe at that tIo
carry on this debate, but the right hon, geentllseomen opposite
has shifted his ground, and declares thalivilll remain,
in in order to support a motion for adjournment.
hear")—vilsiw7llunpojo
therefore, think that such a course would be a profitable not,
em-
ployment of time—(" hear," and laughter)—and, as the division which has just taken place upon the question of ad'ourn-
dascarinesinodfic,a,tHicienato,fhtehaer,d
meut may be taken_oou
main question now
object to the adjournment of the debate till Thursday next.
Mr. MALINS then withdrew his motion,
On the question that the debate be adjourned till Thursday
next,
The Marquis of BLANDFORD suggested that it should be
adjourned till Friday, as many hon. gentlemen had motions
on the paper for Thursday which would be virtually shelved
for this session if they could not bring them on upon that
day.
Lord PALMERSTON could not assent to the suggestion,
as there were important Government measures on the paper
for Friday.

The motion for the adjournment of the debate till Thurs-
day was then agreed to.

The house adjeurued at half-pain 12 o'clock.