The Sun.
London, England, 1860-03-09 00:00:00

IINIPE

RIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS—(YESTERDAY.)
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack
,Lt five o'clock.

NEW PEERS

The Earl de GREY and RIPON, and the Earl of EGLIN-
TON and Dz WINTON, took the oaths and their seats as
British Earls.

CHURCH RATES.
Several petitions were presented against the abolition of
church rates.

SUNDAY TRADING.

Lord CHELMSFORD presented a petition signed by
20,000 tradesmen of London against Sunday trading. The
noble lord said in the course of a few days he hoped to in-

Luce a bill on the subject.
THE BALLOT

Lord TEYNHAM presented a petition from Northamp-
ton in favour of the ballot. He begged to postpone the
second reading of his bill on this subject till this day fort-
night.

CORNISH MINERALS.
Lord REDESDALE presented a petition from Cornwall
praying that rights now possessed by them to minerals
lying under the sea shore might. be preserved to them.

SAVOY

AND NICE.

In reply to the Earl of CARNARVON,
The Duke of NEWCASTLE said the noble earl must
excuse him entering into the question, especially as this
subject was sure fully to undergo discussion. Be neither
could enter into the question relative to privilege of private
letters, all he would say at the present moment was that he
did not think that any blame attached either to Lord Cow-
ley or those who received them. Whether there was any-
thing in those private letters that would alter the case as it
at present stood, that was entirely a matter of opinion.
But he could assure the noble earl that Parlia-
ment had before it frankly and fully the whole
of the case as it at present stood, and neither the private
letters written by Lord J. Russell or Lord Cowley would
alter it.
The Marquis of NORMANBY said he thought such an
important subject as that of the annexation of Savoy to
France ought not to have been treated for a moment as a
private matter.
Earl GREY thought that without the whole of the cor-
respondence on this subject was produced Parliament would
be to a great extent precluded from fully and properly dis-
cussing the question
Lord WODEHOUSE said there certainly was not in
exi:tence any important communication, as seemed to be
supposed, from Count Walewski.
The Earl of MALMESBURY said. Parliament had
equally a right with the Queen to be fully aware of all the
points of importance in this case. If the noble lord at the
head of the Foreign-office was compelled to send to his col •
leagues telegraphic messages of what might be sent to
foreign countries, it would be impossible to carry
on the business of the country ; but, at the same

time he was surprised that the noble lord (Lord J. Russell)
had not thought it fit to cover all he had done either during
the meeting of Parliament. or by despatches which might
be asked for when Parliament was sitting. That had al-
ways been the course he had pursued during the time he
was at the head of the Foreign-office.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH said it would often
occur, and it might be necessary for the interest of the
public service that communications should be made by
private letters, but at the same time records of those
letters should be made in the Foreign-office, so
that reference to them might be made at any time. He
remembered that when the outbreak in China took place,
the only papers in reference to the instructions to
Sir William Napier were obtained from the late Earl de
Grey, which he considored a most dangerous practice, and
one that was very prejudicial to the public sorvice.
The Duke of NE WCASTLE said there was no desire
on the part of the noble lord at the head of the Foreign
office for any secrecy on this subject. He had given all
the information possible on the subject.
The Earl of DERBY said there was a third party who
was interested beside Lord J. Russell and Lord Cowley,
namely, the French Minister. Parliament had been
informed that as early as July the French Go-
vernment declared that it was not the intention of the
French Emperor to take measures for obtaining the annex-
ation of Savoy. The French Minister said that it was quite
true he had made such a communication, but it was now
equally true that on many times after he had informed
the noble lord that as there was a congress sitting in order

to secure the territorial aggrandiselent of Sardinia, it
would be necessary, in the event of certain changes
taking place, to require the annexation of Savoy
to France. Under such circumstances, it was highly
improper to suppress private correspondence, thereby lead-
ing Parliament to suppose that this question of annexaticn
had come upon them unexpectedly.
After a few words from the Duke of ARGYLL.
The subject dropped.
THE FRENCH TREATY.

The Duke of NEWCASTLE said the address to her
Majesty would be moved in that house on Thursday next.
Their lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(YESTERDAY.)
The SPEAKER took the chair at four o'clock.
NEW MEMBER.

Mr. DEASET, the Attorney-General for Ireland, who was
loudly cheered on his entrance, took the oaths and his seat
for the county of Cork.,
PETERBOROUGH ELECTION PETITION.
_ _

The committee appointed to try the merits of this peti-
tion were sworn at the table, and will assemble at twelve
o'clock to-morrow.

ATHLONE PETITION.
A letter was read announcing the withdrawal of this
petition.

NORWICH.
The committee appointed to try the merits of the election
petition in the case of this borough were sworn in, and will
meet to-morrow at one o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.
The following bills were read a thitd time and passed :
Banbridge, Lisburn and Belfast, and Ulster Railway Com.
panies; Caine Railway ; Droylsden Gas; and Oswestry
and Newtown Railway (Additional Capital, &c.)
THE EVICTIONS AT CASTLEBAR, IRELAND.
Mr. MAGUIRE gave notice that he would ask the At-
torney-General for Ireland whether it was true that a
troop of hussars had been sent to assist in the evictions at
Lord Plunket's estate at Castlebar.
HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT.
Mr. WISE moved for a return of all sums paid for in-
durating or preserving the external stonework and the
iron rocfs of the Houses of Parliament since the year 1853,
as well as the prices paid for sueh work per superficial yard
—und, copy of any correspondence with the parties whose
processes have been used.—Ordered.
VACCINATION.
Mr. K. SEYMER moved an address for return of the
number of public vaccinators in the metropolis; with the
extent and population of the districts for which they act ;
the days and hours in the week on which they vaccinate;
and the number of cases vaccinated each day during the
year 1859.—Ordered.
GREAT BELL IN THE CLOCK TOWER.
Mr. Alderman SALOMONS asked the Chief Commis-
sioner of Works if he could afford the house auy informa-
tion as to the condition of the great bell in the
clock tower ; and if an early expectation may be entertained
of its tones being heard again ?
Mr. COWPER, said the bell was cracked in no less than
five places, but whether that was occasioned by the ham-
, mer being too heavy for the tenacity of the bell, or the
metal being too brittle for the capacity of the hammer,
he could not say. (Laughter.)
THE NELSON MONUMENT.

In reply to Mr. HANKEY,
• Mr. COWPER said that 18 months ago Sir Edwin
Landseer had received instructions to complete the lions for
the pedestal of the monument, but he could not state when
they would be ready.
SAVOY AND NICE.
Sir J. WALSH asked the Secretary of State for Foreign
Affairs whether he would lay on the table of the house any
corresponpence with the Government of France relative to
the affairs of Italy, and the annexation of Savoy, which
had taken place subsequently to the date of the last papers
communicated.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the correspondense in ques-
tion was prepared, and he would be able to lay it on the
table to-morrow. He took that opportunity of ap•
pealing to the honourable member for Bridgewater with
respect to his motion for Monday next in reference to Savoy
and Nice. That hon. member had thought proper on a for •
mer occasion to press his motion, buthe trusted he wouldnot
pursue the same course as regarded the motion in question,
as it would be attended with inconvenience and injury to
the public service.
Mr. KINGLAKE said that after the appeal of the noble
lord, who took upon himself the responsibility of the
statement ho had made, it would be very wrong of
him (Mr. Kinglake) to attempt to proceed with his motion
on Monday. At the same time he assured the house
that he was so deeply convinced of the importance
II
due of a careful and earnest consideration of the subject of

16 his motion, that when an opportunity arose when he could
7 not be told that its discussion would be productive of in-
jury to the public service, he would bring it forward. He
3 would, therefore, postpone his motion till next Mon-
lue day week, and he wished it to be understood that it
14 was not his intention to imply any censure on the course
16 which the Government had adopted.
clue CHINA.
14 Mr. B. COCHRANE asked the Secretary of State for
Foreign Affairs whether he would lay on the table •
dlO despatches which had passed between her Majesty's Govern.
:due ment and Mr. Bruce, our Ambassador in China, up to the

6 present time. •
ii Lord J. RUSSELL said that he would lay these papers
on the table on an early day.
'due THE WHITWORTH RIFLE.
• Mr. W. EGERTON asked the Secretary of State for
War whether it was true that the offer of Mr. Whitworth's
gratuitous services to adapt the
stEenfieldd establishment to
is the production of rifles on his sym ha been refus by
Goverrunent, and, if so, whether he had-any objection to
state the reason why ; and whether any calculation had
10 been made of the probable cost of the 'Whitworth rifle, if
made at the Enfield establishment?
Mr. S. HERBERT said such an offer had been made ir
due
1858, and no doubt it was refused on the ground of the ex-
pense that wouUSTOMS ld be incurrRESOLUTION Sed in carrying out the proposal.
C .
Mr. HORSFALL asked the Chancellor of the Eache
quer whether he intended to propose for the acceptance of
the house, Nos. 11, 12, and 13 in the Customs Resolutions,
and Nos. 1,2, and 8 of the Ways and Means Resolutions,
and if so whether he was prepared to state with what modi-
fications he intended to propose them.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that with respect to resolutions 12 and 13 he would be able
tolay them on the table in an amended form to-morrow. As
regarded resolutions 1 and 2he hoped to be able to lay
them before the house in a day or two. As regarded reso-
lut:on 8, it was not really a matter of finance, but related
to the building trade, and the house should have ample
time for its consideration before he asked hen. members to
agree to it.

whether her Majesty's Government, being- all Protestant,
while a Ltrge portion of the Pea's sitij,77ets aie Catholic,
it was intended by the present Government to observe ths,
principle of absoltitz., non-intervervion, so far at least as re-
garded the territories and sovereinty of "his lio:iness the
Pope.

Lori PALMERSTON could assure the hon. member
that the forzign policy. of her Majesty's Government was
not influeneea either by the religion of Minisrers, oe of any
s ction of her Majesty's subjects. That policy was founded
on nvich larger and higher considerations. (lfear.) He had
already stated, with regard to the affairs of Italy, that the
principle which the Government endeavoured to inculcate
was to leave the people of that country free to arrange their
cwa affairs according to their own notions of what was beat
for their own interests. (Cheers.) lle trustel that they
would be able to make such arrangements as would accuse
their peace and prosperity. (Hear, hear.)
EAST INDIA.—INDENTURED LABOURERS.
Mr. CAVE moved an addreis for copies of correspondence
between her Majesty's Government and the Government of
France in respect to legalising the exportation of natives of
British India as indentured labourers to French colonies.
Lord J. RUSSELL made an explanation, to the effect
that the treaty was intended to prevent a revival of-the
African slaVe trade, bat it was not yet, signed. 'the corres-
pondence was very voluminous, but he had no obje, tenon to
produce any extracts that might be required.
THE TREATY WITII FRANCE—ADDRESS TO

HER MAJESTY.
Mr. BYNG said that the house would feel he was about
to address it under circumstances of no ordinary nature.
Under any circumstances a responsibility such as his would
be a serious one, but in the present case it was much in-
creased by the discussion which had taken place on a former
evening. If the shortness of his first notice had occasioned
any inconvenience to hon. members he deeply regretted it—
oias.
ntf circumstances,ingl
01 hwi
ceehFebruary
orfe couldaasanhp very
appeared
not but
ibrshfeurdtrt.
this
looißuso syldyni
ffngiena: rememberrtettunhoroceetook
thatytwoiat
easto
everys nt
gitpnehi,neeisn:l7th February
i7rlatahr
Saturday d°gefa rivt:lrienaol
pub-
licity to his notice, and sent copies to the right hon. mem-
ber for Buckinghamshire and the bon. member for Sunder -
land. He was glad to know that in making his motion he
was treading in well-known steps. He found that on the
21st February. 1787. Mr. Blackburn, of Lancashire, moved
and Capt. Barclay of Gloucestershire, seconded, a motion
for an address thanking the Crown for the Pitt treaty; and
in his own time he recolected the address of 1856 on the
treaty of peace with :Russia. Under even ordinary circum-
stances it would bo difficult to separate the commercial
from the political features of a treaty like the present ; now,
he knew it wag impossible, and he did not shrink front the
alternative. Under ordinary circumstances he might have
contented himself with quoting the words of Lord Cow:ey,
and expressing a hope that the treaty might be the means
of drawing closer the bonds of amity between the two na-
tions. But he must go further. He was merely an inde-
pendent number of Parliament, he was not in the secrets of
Government, but he believed that in negotiating this treaty
the Ministers had mainly negotiated a treaty which inta---
1 een ie.:determined on by pubic opinion throughout the
country. He for one would never have given it his
support had he not been firmly convinced that it
was sure to be beneficial to the country. (Hear.) With
regard to our foreign policy, we ought to act with dig-
nified forbearance, calm consideration, and promote a
friendly intercourse with all nations, and we ought also to
neglect no reasonable opportunity of extending our com •
mercial and trading connections with other countries.
(Hear, hear.) With regard to peace. we should use every
means in our power to preserve it, and with respect to war
we should act up to the Spanish proverb—" 1)o not draw
the sword without reason, and do not sheath it without
honour." (Hear.) We should respect treaties, but; above
all, we should not interfere unwarily, unnecessarily, or un-
call, d for, in the internal affairs of other states. (Hear,
Lear.) He believed that a policy of this kind would ensure
respect abroad and confidence at ho.ne. But if we pursued
this line of policy, there was no reason why we should not,
o 1 all legitimate opportunities, endeavour to extend our
trading and commercial relations with otter countries—
(cheers)—more especially, : ain the present instance, where
it might go far to wipe out ancient prejudices. (Hear, hear.)
There was another subject with regard to our foreign policy
which was cf a very painful character. He would certainly
hays wished to postpone any obse*vations he might make
with respect to the anr exation of Savoy to a more legiti-
mate opportunity; but as he believed the motion to-night
inx °lye./ :to a certr.in degree an expression of opinion of
confidence in her Majesty's ministers, this much be would
say, that he believed with regard to this question our foreign
piney and the best interests of Europe were in safe and
trustworthy hands. (Cheers.) To say more on that subject
at present would be inopportune. (Heir, hear.) He would
ask the house to go for a few moments into the cOnsiderae
tions and arguments which had been made during the last
eight nights of the debate. He had heard with some sur-
prise a statement made by the right hen. member for Bucks
that the course taken by her Majesty's ministers was nei-
ther a right nor a fair one with regard to that house. He
believed the right hon. gentlernt la said that the house
should have, first been invited to express its approbation or
disapprobation of the treaty of commerce and proceed to
wove an address to the Crown, and then, supposing that
question to be decided in the affirmative, they might dis-
cuss, object to, and reject various items in the tariff. The
house, however, decided otherwise, and they had had
lengthened debates, but he was surprised to find that the
course which met with the approbation of the right hon.
gentleman was the very course which the leader of the op-
position in 1787 both denounced and deprecated. On that
occasion Mr. Fox stated that of all courses of proceeding
that by address was the most alarming, since it endeavoured
to tie up the hands of ministers and to render null and void
all those reforms which our ancestors had obtained to secure
freedom in our Parliamentary discussions. The Chancellor
of the Exchequer introduced his financial scheme at the
same time that the provisions of the treaty of commerce
were laid upon the table of the house. The expectation of
the public was naturally excited, and time was given to the
country to decide. Deputation after deputation waited on
the right hon. gentleman, all the great trading and monied
interests of the country wt re consulted, many amendments
were proposed, and many deficiencies detected. He could
re t help being struck with what took place during the de-
bate. Upon that occasion hon. gentlemen representing
such great and important constituencies as South Lanca-
shire, Liverpool, Cornwall, the Potteries, and other places,
declined to follow the right hon. member for Bucks. (Hear,
hear.) What inference could be drawn from this but that
they wisely preferred what they believed to be for the true
interests of their constituencies and of the country to any
advantage that might be gained by a party victory. (Loud
cheers.) In glancing at the treaty he would endeavour
not to over estimate its advantages, and he would pro-
mise the house not to undervalue its correspond-
ing disadvantages, nor to gloss over its defects. He
supported the treaty, in the first instance, because he saw
that on our part it involved an almost entire removal of pro-
tective duties, and a simplification of the tariff which had
long been urgently asked for. (Hear.) He believed that
2009 years ago there were no less than 1,630 articles charged
with duty. In 1787 there were 1,425 articles so charged.
In 1326 the number was 1,230; In 1841, 1,163 ; is 1315,
1,052 ; in 1853 the number had decreastd to 468 ; in 1859 it
was 419 ; and if this treaty came into effect, in 1860 there
would be but 44 articles charged with duty. (Hear.) He
valued the treaty also on the part of France for this reason,
because he saw an abandonment of prohibition and a great
equalisation of the duties levied upon import articles of Eng-
lish produce and manufacture. But he had heard during
the late debate, and probably he should hear it to-night,
that those who argued this treaty would do good were
making a very bad bargain for the people of England. In
answer to that he would say, if these were questions of how
much, on the one hand, you would give, and on the other
hand, how little you would take, the assertion of the Oppo-
sition might have some weight; but he denied that these
negotiations had been entered into in a spirit of mere barter
or as a bargain. (Hear, hear.). The treaty was nothing of
the sort. It was not even a treaty of reciprocity. (Oppo-
sition cheers) But it was one of mutual bent fit. (Hear,
hear.) In this treaty the people of England spoke to the
people of France, and said that past years of distress and
recent years of unexampled prosperity had shown them that
the principles on which their commercial legislation was
founded were wise and just, and, uiahing other nations to
be prosperous as they were, they invited them to meet
England in the spirit of free trade. We did not ask Franca
to make a bargain in which every article should be weighed
with extreme nicety, but we asked her to remove her pro-
hibition and reduce her protective duties, and thus meet
us in the spirit of free trade—(hear, hear)—and we would
venture to predict that in a short time our wishes on the
subject would also be those of the people of France. (Hear,
hear.) How did the French answer this ? They recog-
nised the justice of our arguments, but said that with
them free trade was a new light. Our arguments were
novel to many of them and unpalatable to seine, but if we
gave them time they would endeavour to imitate us in our
path of commercial progress and our commercial legisla-
tion, and honourably and faithfully endeavonr to carry out
all their engagements. (Hear, hear.) Paradoxical as it
might seem to many hon. gentlemen' lr ooZe.tl4tnhgt)au
be-
lieved that the fact of this treaty not having
impartiality. (Hear.) He felt confident,at However,this moment
enthusiasm on either side of the channel showeditsgtrheaatt
the people of England and FranleeB7mtv.traet their natural re-
sources and advantages should notihboar,
but on the con-
trary, or the destruction of thteeirnenieitg
more anxious than they were in 7
tend either to the alien-
in 1787 to vArious
(Hear, hear.) hear.) Mr. P
ts that had been urged ag .
ninst the treaty he was con-
iitmt,pienoereplyiegof the two countries.
to one that England gave up too much,
eluding, especially t
gtraumrye,nto the mutual
imagineidea of return. The treaty
• ld advantages without the. ,
to yield no doubt, but it would be more
would be beneficial tet them
said it was ridiculous o the French wsuld consent
popular market, we did the
same in a greater degree. Thei ltreaty `vas
in the nature
advantageous to this country. If el e
gained for her wines
and other produce a greaL aa
en a manufacturing
d with peculiar productions, and the
advantage of the agreement must
country and one blessed
preponderate in favour of
1
and essence of an agreement betwc
the former. We should do we to bear in mind that when t
arch tow d f
trade with rapidity, we had ourselves only arrived at it by
hear.) There were a
slow and painful degrees. (Hear,
we complained that France did no rn ar s ree
the house. That gentleman
with which he would trouble
it should be rembered a
said with regard to free trade.
few words bearing on this point
ii nl
be theo
fa workfcrheeaitnr of
trade
arhr.
gaßudumcbeke
esnl Buckle,s
truth that although the principle
yyof
which the truths mathematics were
abecleienved it would neither be just
hev were to thelast strenuously resisted by a power-
based, t .
sympathised.
ful party.
si ..nor
yund regrettederland
that
tt
ohneanfulloecasy
to abstain
his part if he wore from noticing what
right on
ion when the
a established
sound .
as( fore thosea
rn )enanlr li ye
he considered the evils in this treaty. He could assure the
commerce of the country would to a great degree receive
mature development, yet theashipping interest would be
member
and ford deeply
e p Sunderland
subjected to restrictions, but he was also bound to bear in
Vilirth. hi
mind that the treaty was one of commerce and tracis, and
not a treaty of navigation. (Hear.) Our navigation, how-
ever, would only suffer indirectly, because he believed an
English ship going direct with English •
ancargo into a
French port would stand
on precisely the same footingas a •
French ship. (Hear.) No one would more gladly see all re-
strictions and differential dues removed than he would. He
must confess that when he first read the articles of the
, treaty he looked upon the eleventh article with feelings of
1 concern and apprehension. The more, however, he had
considered the subject, and the more he had received infer-
k mation from competent authorities, the more had those
i feel-
; , ngs of concern and apprehension been removed. He be-
lieved that in case of war the 11th article would havet. rta
force with regard to the antecedent rights of otherecojanatrtra z
The Lord Chancellor had said, a short time sin
provision was merely intended on both sides for commercial
purposes, -and might be set aside in time of war. But this
_
was not the only country from which France derived her
stores of coal. The Belgium collieries were of large extent,
supply France with coal. When it
and they could always
should not allow they article to
was gravely said that we .
~ i
the ves or Coat in England.
stand m the treat because.
were not sufficient to last the country more . tv
' an 400 yearep