The Sun.
London, England, 1860-08-11 00:00:00

THE MILITIA BILL.

This bill having been read a third time, a conversation
took place, on the question being put that the bill do
pass, as to whether there should not be an alteration in the
ages fixed for those who should be liable to the ballot.

Earl GRAN VILLE said, that the subject had been well
considered at the War-office, and it was deemed advisable
that the ages fixed upon in the bill should not be disturbed
—namely, from 18 to 30 years.
The bill was then passed.
GAS (METROPOLIS) BILL.
Their lordships went into committee on this bill, which
passed, through committee.
EUROPEAN FORCES (INDIA) BILL.

The Duke of ARGYLL moved the suspension of the
standing order, that this bill might be read a second time.
He tkought the motion would receive no opposition from
their lordships. This bill was not for the entire abolition of
the local army, because after the provisions of this bill came
into existence there would still be large bodies of native
troops. The simple effect of the bill was that no European
troops could be enlisted for exclusive service in India. That
would be undoubtedly a great change, but the effect of it had
been exaggerated by various distinguished military and civil
authorities in India. In the earlier portions of the history
of the East India Company there was no restriction as to
the enlistment of European troops, but since the year 1773
various restrictions had been imposed by Parliament, and
the truth was, that for a long -period very little importance
had been attached to the service of the European troops.
So far back as 1788, Mr. Pitt had approved of the amalga•
illation of the Indian with the European forces. In 1796
there were only two regiments in each presidency, and that
was very much the state of things until recent times. The
opinion of Lcfd Canning was that it would be impossible to
maintain a local army in India, or to get British officers in
sufficient numbers to command it. It had been objected
that the bill had been brought forward at a period of the
session when it was impossible adequately to discuss its pro-
visions. The authorities in favour of the bill were so nu-
merous, and the matter had already undergone so much in-
vestigation and discussion, that this objection should not
prevail. There was nothing in the measure to diminish the
inducements to young men of enterprise and ambition to go
to India, nor was there anything iu the bill calculated to
withdraw from India any of those sources of strength and
intelligence which had shed on our national character im-
perishable renown. (Hear, hear.)
The Earl of ELLENBOROITGII said the Government
of which he had been a member was deeply indebted to both
armies for the manner in which, shoulder to shoulder, in
various parts of India, for two years they vindicated the
honour of their country. (Hear.) Ho was deeply indebted
to both armies. They both served their country equally
well, and it was since his time those jealousies had grown
up which had been productive of such mischievous conse-
quences. He still adhered to the opinion he had expressed
before the commission, that there should be equality be-
tween both armies. The noble duke talked of amalgama-
tion, but the bill was not meant to amalgamate the two
armies, but to extinguish the local army. That was the
right object of the bill. (Hear.) The only amalgamation
that would take place under the bill would be to admit into
the number of the Queen's forces the 3,000 bad men who
had deserted their colours, and thus punish vicariously
those who had preserved their loyalty. (Hear.) He was
devoted to the service of India, and he viewed this proposed
change with the deepest apprehension. He could not hope
to change the views of Government, but it was a gratifica-
tion to him to be able to express his sense of the value of
the Indian army, and his deep gratitude for their services.
Earl DE GREY and RIPON said, that whetherright or
wrong in this measure, the Government heel an honest con-
viction that its adoption would tend to the benefit of India.

The Duke of CAIiIBRID GE, before the discussion closed,
and from the position he had the honour to occupy, felt
bound to make a few observations. And he did so with
great doubt and hesitation after what had fallen from his
noble friend (the Earl of Ellonborough), because the con-
clusions he arrived at were entirely different from his. He
(the Duke of Cambridge) had had many opportunities of
hearing this important question discuse,ed on various
grounds, and, after giving it the fullest and most careful
consideration, after taking the opinions of many military
men on the subject, and especially his noble and gallant
friend who sat near him (Lord Clyde)—he certainly came
to the conclusion that the time had arrived when it was
expedient that a change should be made. (Hear, hear.)
His noble friend the noble earl regretted that the great
change proposed now to be made was not postponed ; but
whatever difference of opinion existed as to the mode, there
was none whatever as to the necessity of settling it at once.
(Hear, hear.) It was impossible any longer to postpone it;
indeed it would be dangerous to do so, because the feeling
of jealousy, which he regretted to say now existed, would
ginZti:ereasing. He could not see how it was possible to
two armies in India under a different and separate
authority.l
As lone. as that country belonged to the East
tnedatameeouninid,,ei,r theny it was' a different thing; but the momeat
ho vauthority of the Crown, he could not.,
comprehend
should not European troops of different descriptions
come under the authority of one head. If there
was a local force there, no
question would arise as to the
authority of the Crown, and how it could be different in the
present case he was at aloes to understand. His noble friend
(the Duke of Argyll) alluded to
of the Horse Guards, but it ve what was called a jealousy
alstnyoat the Horse Guards, but
the authority of the Crown.
s idle to suppose that a
certain portion of the army in India
lad oughtae to be in a posi-
haxivsetas regarded
lion that the Queen's authority sho
them, The Commander-in-Chief would
no more au-
thority conferred on him by this bill, farther than
what
their lordships wished to see he should possess over troops
at homc, and as he had nothing whatever to do withpro
motions or appointments in that array, it would be the same

with that in India. The same system which now existed
in this country was intended to be carried out as regarded
India. He hoped, therefore, no obstruction to the pas-
sing, of the measure would be offered. Hear.) He assured
the house there was no intention on the part n- the. home
authorities to interfere with the decisions of the Governor-
General in India, directly or indirectly. (Hear, hear.)
the Earl of DERBY theught that the effect of this
measure, and the measures that would result from it, were
such as to occasion considerable anxiety and apprehension,
because the prospects before us were very uncertain, and the
intentions of her Majesty's Government were rather vague.
With regard to the amalgamation there had been offered
the most conflicting opinions ; but it was singular that
almost all the officers connected with the line who had given
any opinion on the subject had been in favour of the amal-
gamation. He did not for a moment dispute, on the con-
trary, he contended for the necessity of concentrating in
one department authority over the whole of her Majesty's
forces in India ; but this might be done without amalga-
mating those forces. With regard to the discipline of the
troops, he contended that her Majesty's Commander-in-
Chief in this country shonld exercise supreme authority ;
but with regard to orders in the field, the undivided autho-
rity and responsiblity should rest with the Governor-
General, and subordinately, but in concurrence with him,
with the Commander-in-Chief in India. (Hear.) He repu-
diated altogether the jealousy entertained respecting the
Horse Guards. No one was less desirous than the illus-
trious duke of absorbing into his own hands the patronage
of the army. The noble duke (the Duke of Argyll) who
introduced the question with singular ability and clearness,
argued as if they had only two alternatives before them,
amalgamation or the continuance of the status quo, with an
overwhelming India force. He (the Earl of Derby) thought
there was great advantage in having a local force acquainted
with the language and habits of the people, at the same time
he fully agreed with the illustrious duke as to the necessity
of preserving discipline by the constant infusion of fresh
blood from this country. On this subject he had often con-
versed with the illustrious duke himself. But the bill be-
fore the house was not for the amalgamation of the two
armies, but the extinction of the local army. Then, as to the
staff corps, nothing definite had been stated as to the mode in
which that body was to be organised and worked. The ques-
tion of reliefs had been referred to, and the noble duke ob-
served that there would be no difficulty in this respect. But if
instead of having 20,000 troops, you have 80,000, you
would require 30,000 more to compensate for those con-
stantly returning home and going out to supply the defi-
ciency. There were considerable difficulties in the way of
amalgamation, arising from the different character of the
two services. There was, for example, the system of pro-

motion by merit, and that by purchase on which the Go-

vernment had given no information. He could not help
thinking that it would operate to prevent a man entering
into the army when he would find that it was just possible

he might pass a third of his military life in India. He
thought they were making an experiment of some danger
in the proposed bill, and one from which they could not
recede. He certainly felt that after the strong expression
of opinion in the other house of Parliament, and the strong
expression of opinion also on the part of the illustrious duke,
he should shrink from the responsibility of offering opposi-
tion to this bill, and would leave to the Government the re-
sponsibility of this measure. (Hear.)
Lord CLYDE was received with general cheering, but

spoke in so low a tone that it is galite impossible to pretend
to give a full report. He said his experience in India had
entirely convinced him of the absolute necessity of having
only one European army, moveable as one force, maintained
at one point of discipline, and acting, as it were, with one

soul. On his arrival on one occasion at a station, a night's
journey from Simla, the Adjutant-General of Artillery, a
most distinguished officer, addressed the chief of the Staff,

and asked what the general was going to do. Ho said the
general was going to speak to the men. The officer said
they were past that. This anecdote showed what was the
discipline of a European local force. He had never before
seen troops in such a state that they would not listen to
their officers ; but to avoid the great evil of employing
other European troops against them, he was obliged to form
a commission, before whom the men appeared and stated
their grievances. (Hear.) There were many other cir-
cumstances which came to his knowledge and made him
arrive at the conclusion that for the character and honour
of the country it was necessary there should be but one
army and one discipline. (Cheers.) He entirely concurred
in all the opinions which the illustrious duke had expressed,
and it was almost painful to him to disagree with the noble
earl, of whose extreme kindness he was deeply sensible (the
Earl of Ellenb ,rough), when the noble earl said this mea-
sure ought to be postponed. The business must be settled at
once. (Hear.) To remove the jealousies and suspicions
which he must admit existed, it was very desirable that
some decision should be arrived at, and that the opinion of
their lordships and of Government should be no longer left
in doubt. (Cheers.)
Earl GRANVILLE, after paying a compliment to the
noble and gallant lord who had just addressed their lox d-
ships, said he thought one of the great advantages of the
abolition of the East India Company would be the removal
of the great anomaly of the existence of two armies in one
of her Majesty's dependencies, differing altogether from
each other in composition and discipline. The noble earl
then proceeded to remark upon several of the views which
had been put forward by the noble earl (Earl Derby) who
had complained that this bill had been brought forward
without Government submitting to Parliament the whole of
their scheme. Now he (Earl Granville) thought that Go-
vernment had acted wisely in leaving the details to be set-
tled when Parliament had approved of the principle of the
bill. He beliaved, upon the authority of letters from India,
and upon the experience they had gained upon this subject,
that it was of the greatest importance this question should
be settled without delay. (Hear, hear.)

The bill was then read a second time.
TRANSPORT OF FORCES TO CHINA,

The Earl of ELLENBORGUGH put a question to her
Majesty's Government as to whether any estimate had been
received of the cost of transport for the force to be em-
ployed in India.
The Duke of SOMERSET said that the cost of tran-
ports hired at home amounted per month to £159,932. The
cost of those taken up in India amounted to £69,500, and
of those taken up in China, £32,000. Including coal and
victualling, the cost from Jane Ist was about £161,000 per
month. The entire cost at the present rate would be about
£2,000,000 a• year.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGII expressed his surprise
at that enormous expenditure.
The Tramways (Ireland) Bill was read a third time.
The Ecclesiastical Commission, &c. Bill went through

committee.
The Poor-law Continuanco Bill was read a second time,
after which the house adjourned, at a few minutes past 12

o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.-(YESTERDAY.)

The SPEAKER took the chair at half-past twelve o'clock,
the house not having seen formed before.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.

The following bills were read a third time and passed :
Beauchamp Almshouses Estate, Domvile's Estate, Duke
of Norfolk's Estate, Earl of Longford's Estate, and Gius-
tiniani's Naturalisation.