The Sun.
London, England, 1860-06-05 00:00:00

into committee, because we must take into consideration the
remaining estimates for the year. If the question was with
regard to the army or navy estimates I could understand
that argument, because those are estimates of very great im-
portance; but I cannot conceive how hon. g ,Ltlemen can
say that they are in such haste to consider tee miscellane-
ous estimates that they cannot proceed with a measure of
such importance as the amendment of th 3 representation.
Recollecting what had been done in former sessions I have
looked to see at what time the miscellaneous estimates were
. considered in those years in which there was no dissolution,
and I find that in 1851 they were considered on the 7th, the
11th, the 14th, and 17th of July; in 1853 they were consi-
dered en the 4th, sth, and Bth of August ; in 1854 on the 3d,
6th, 7th, 25th, 23th, 27th, and 31st of July; in 1855 on the
26th, 30th, and 31st of July, and on the Ist and 2d of August;
and in 1858 on the 9th, 12th, 14th, and 15th of July. It has
latterly, therefore, been the custom, when there was no
dissolution, not to consider the miscellaneous estimates till
a much later period than the present ; and with regard to
some of the years I have enumerated, it cannot be said that
there were pending any measures of such supreme import-
ance that the house was required to put the estimates off
till the last moment. No doubt those estimates give rise to
very interesting discussions—debates, for instance, upon
education in Great Britain and Ireland, upon the principles
of religious liberty as regards the regium donum, upon ques..
tions of criminal justice, upon the application of the fine
arts to the houses of parliament, and matters of that kind,
but although those are interesting topics of discussion, it
has not been in the power or the inclination of the house to
effect any great reduction. I remember an occasion on
which the house refused a grant to obtain two pictures of
Sir Edwin Landseer, which would no doubt have been ad-
mirable pictures of animals by which a part of the House of
Lords might have been adorned. On another occasion it

refused the salary of a gentleman who had been sent abroad
by the trustees of the National Gallery to choose pictures ;
but if I were to state the economy which has been effected
during the last seven years at £2,000 a year I should be ex-
aggerating. (Hear.) I cannot believe, then, that there has
sprung up all on a sudden such a zeal for economy, or that
the spirit of reduction and retrenchment should so suddenly
have seized the house that they cannot wait till July to
consider the miscellaneous estimates. (Hear.) lam told
that during the last year or two a change has been made in
our financial system by which there i; not so large a sur-
plus left in the exchequer ; and that in order to allow the
civil service estimates to go till July or the beginning of
August, it may be necessary for the Secretary to the Tree •
sury to ask from time to time, as he did the other day, for
some moderate votes on account. But that is merely a ques-
tion of detail; and it is a question which would not post-
pone the consideration of the miscellaneous estimates to a
period at all later than the usual one. (Hear.) I can only
say, therefore, of this excuse as I said of the other—if the
house were to represent that it was seized with such a sud-
den zeal for retrenchment on the civil service estimates,
and on the estimates for education in Ireland, for the fine
arts and similar matters, that it would not go into commit-
tee on this bill—l believe that even if it reduced the votes,
its sincerity would be very much mistrusted, and it would
I not be believed that the neglect of several years had been
followed by a sincere and sudden retrenchment. On the
contrary, it would be attributed to a desire to get rid of this
bill without having the manliness to say that the house did
not wish to pass it. (Cheers.) With regard to the time
at which we have arrived I will remind hon. members that
we are only at the beginning of June, and that our ses-
sions usually go on till the beginning, the middle, or even
the end of August. There is no reason why there should
be an earlier prorogation this year. Indeed. there is no
time positively fixed for our adjournment. 'We are not like
the American Congress, the session of which is restricted
within certain limits ; and if we have important business
before us there is no reason why we should not settle it,
and why the House of Lords should not undertake it, as
they have undertaken many other measures in other times,
at a period when it would be perfectly possible to give it
their consideration. (Hear.) I have now stated the reasons
1 why I think the house should go into committee on this bill,
and should decide the various questions which will come
before it. I have argued on other occasions that if we post-
pone these questions, there would be an uncertainty—that
at least we must all admit—as to any other period at which
another measure could be brought in. You have decided to
give this bill a second reading, and you have decided that
after six nights' debate, and if another bill were brought
forward in another session, you would have to go through
another debate on the second reading; you would have all
those arguments repeated, and probably with the same re-
sult. That would involve a consumption of public time and
a delay which would be perfectlyunnecessary. (Hear, hear.)
And what might be the time at which the question would
be re-opened ? You might have, as you have now, a time
of tranquilli y when you are at peace with all the nations
of Europe ; but it might also be a period of commercial dis-
tress. (Hear, hear.) It might be a period when war ap-
peared to be threatening this country ; when men would be
very loth to enter upon such a question; and certainly when
they would not be able to give it a dispassionate considera-
tion. If you can but make up your minds as to what your
franchise should be, if you can adopt either the proposition
of the Government, or some other proposition which might
seem wiser or more fitting to improve the representation,
and at the same time would be consistent with the safety
of your institutions, let the house calmly tonsider it. We
have done our duty in bringing the question before you.
(Cheers.) It is for you to dispose of it; but do not forget
that the language which has been used with regard to the
£G householders, with regard to the poorest of those who
would by their means have the franchise, has been such,
that though in a time of prosperity it might well pass away,
if it came back at a time of commercial distress, it might
well cause irritation. (Hear, hear.) I have alluded to an
article in a periodical which is generally supposed to repre-
sent a great party ; and this is the Zr ay in which it speaks
of the effects of this bill—" Some say that the publicans
are to be our masters ; others the trades' unions. It is a
blessed choice—between debauchery and crime." (Hear,
hear.) Phrases such as these sink in the mind. I believe
that among the working classes there are many /nen to be
found of greater intelligence and equal integrity with
householders of £lO. (Hear, hear.) Many of the latter are
beershop keepers and small shopkeepers ; and I believe that
working men in many cases have fully as much intelligence
and as much integrity. (Cheers.) When it is sail that if
you adopt this bill you will be governed by debauchery or
crime, can such language produce any effect but irritation ?
If you go on to consider the details of this bill and to settle
what your franchise should be, what has been said will
have but a passing effect; but if you leave this question
open by the declaration that has taken place—eloquent as
that declaration may have been—you will have dug a ditch
between the working and the richer classes, of which you
may have occasion to repent. (Hear.) I therefore seriously
and earnestly ask the house to go into a consideration of
this bill. If you think that its provisions are rash, put in
better and more secure ones in their place, but do not, when
you have such a question before you, attempt to evade or
conceal its importance. Such a course will not produce any
feeling of trust in your sincerity, or respect for your deci-
sion. (Cheers.) I beg leave to move, sir, that you now
leave the chair.
Mr. DISRA.ELI was not surprised, after the lengthened
period which had elapsed since the noble lord had last ad-
dressed the house on the subject of the bill, that he should
have gone at some length into a statement of its principles
and of its present position. The noble lord appeared to
him, however, to have spent a considerable portion of his
time in giving reasons why the Conservative party should
have consented to the second reading, and then to com-
plaints against them for having allowed it to be read. The
noble lord had stated accurately enough, though not with
perfect accuracy, the observations which he (the right hon.
gentleman) hadniade so long ago as 1852. Being then a
Minister of th' Crown he had certainly expressed his
opinion after a measure of reform brought forward
by the noble lord had recently failed, that both in that
measure, as well as in the act of 1832, the claims of the
working classes had not been considered. That was an opi-
nion which he had not expressed merely in 1852. It had
always been his opinion, and in 1&59, whatever differences
of opinion there might be as to the means by which he en-
deavoured to carry it into effect, there was no doubt as to
the sincerity of the attempt which he made to give, in some
measure, representation to the working classes. (Hear,
hear.) Then the noble lord said that after the general elec-
tion he (the right hon. 'gentleman) had recognised, on the
part of the late Government, the verdict of the country as
oturosesoohfursionthmkae r
that
soei
from
eu t cohtfie o
the
and
mo
house
sthe
n dft franchised ismnh abd
for.-oeone
neroughs.ienn
moment
ionmfeaTnythe
but the deductions which the noble lord had drawn from
circumstances in question were somewhat inconsistent. It
might be necessary to admit the principle of the bill, which
they had done by voting for the second reading; but it was
not consequent upon the opinions which they had expressed,
or the pledges, if the noble lord chose, they had given,
that they should approve of the general policy of the noble
lord. The noble lord said that all but the principle of the
bill was a mere matter of detail ; but the noble lord seemed
to have quite forgotten that he had assumed a line of rea-
soning which no minister before him had adopted. He
came forward and introduced a bill based upon the principle
of numbers ; and documents had been placed in the hands
of hon. members of which the noble lord would not for one
moment pretend to say that the accuracy had been upheld.
In another house, so important had these returns been con-
sidered, that the labours of an eminent committee had been
incessantly devoted to their examination ; and if they were
to believe rumour, the result of their lordships' investigation
was in accordance with the generally received opinion.
(Hear.) But the whole policy of the noble lord depended
upon the fact. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord proposed to
entrust political power to a certain number of persons ; and
it was, therefore, important that the probable number of
those to whom the franchise would be extended should be
ascertained. The noble lord could not, therefore, be sur-
prised if hon. members who were willing to see all classes
directly represented should recoil from a measure which
was perhaps founded upon a grave inaccuracy, and which
might, therefore, entail upon the country most serious con-
sequences. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord had not suc-
ceeded in establishing any charge of inconsistency against
those who sat on those (the Conservative) benches. They
were not enemies of the working classes; on the contrary,
the policy of the Tory party had never been unfavourable
Ito these classes, (T—id Conservative atom) They heel