The Sun.
London, England, 1860-02-08 00:00:00

THEI IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS—(YESTERDAY.)
The Loan CKANCELLOIt took his seat on the woolsack
at the usual hour.

CRIMIAL LAW.
F Lord LYNDHURST called the attention of the noble
and learned lord on the woolsack to the bills he had intro-
duced, as he had been informed, for the consolidation of the
criminal law. One of these bills was not confined to the
consolidation, but extended to the amendment of the law.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said, not amendment, but
assimilation.
Lord L YNDHURST said, at all events he inferred that
a clause in one of them was at variance with the law.
Tho LORD CHANCELLOR said the noble lord had
been entirely misinfot med, when he was told the bills were
merely for consolidation. He had expressly said that the
object was to assimilate the law of England and Ireland.
He had spent hours in company with Mr. Greaves in ex-
amining them with a view of preventing any inaccuracies,
but he intended to propose that a complittee be appointed
to examine them still further, and any assistance the noble
and learned lord could afford would be of great value.
Lord LYNDHURST referred to a certain clause which
he thought bad.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said he could not go into
the subject, because he had not received any notice that he
intended to do so from the noble and learned lord.
CHURCH RATES.
The Marquis of BATH presented petitions against the
abolition of church rates.

ST. GEOZGE' S 'THE-EAST.
The Earl of DERBY rose to put the question of which
he had given notice relative to the proceedings that had
for some time past been taking place in the parish of St.
George's-in 'the-East. The noble lord took the opportu-
nity of alluding to the subject in order that his noble
friend might contradict what he felt sure must be a
mistake in the speech made in another place by
a right honourable colleague of his. He had no
sympathy with those persons who introduced into the
simple services of the Church of England practices dis-
tasteful to the majority of the parishioners and worship-
pers, and which might eventually have the effect of driving
them into dissenting chapels. This, however, would offer
no palliation to the conduct which made St. George's-in-
the-East scandalously notorious. The proceedings that had
taken place in that church were disgraceful to any Christian
parish. Their lordshtps had, no doubt, seen the accounts
in the papers of the ,lamming of doors and other proceed-
ings, a parallel to 'which could only he found in a penny
theatre. He could not dwell any further upon the scenes
that had taken place, further than to say that a rev. gen-
tleman har, that day informed him that the reports of the
proceed3:egs were in no way exaggerated, as he had himself
beer. struck in the face by peas and other substances. The
wrestion he wished answered was, whether the Government
had had their attention called to the, proceedings that had
takes place in St. George's-in-the-East, and what steps
they had taken to suppress a repetition of them,
and whether they had examined the laws on the question
with a view of ascertaining whether they were sufficient
to check such scenes. If the law had been found insuffi-
cient to check those outrages, whether they were prepared
to introduce a measure to remedy this scandalous state of
things ?
Earl GRANVILLE said the words that had fallen from
the noble earl would no doubt have very great effect. He
perfectly agreed with him that the matter was a great scan-
dal to all parties concerned. With regard to the police,
there was some difficulty. Orders, as he had stated the
other evening, had been given to do all they could to
repress the disturbance as vigorously as possible, but
they could not legally interfere further than they
had done. He could not at that moment take upon
himself to state what the law was, but the magistrate
in the district had informed parties who had waited upon
him that if they could point any individual who had created
a disturbance there he could be taken into custody, but that
he had no power to interfere. On Sunday last the church-
wardens informed the police that there was no necessity for
their entering the church.
Lord BROUGHAM expressed his disgust at the scenes
that had been reported. The noble earl talked of the power
of the police to interfere. Why, his noble friend (Earl
of Derby) had distinctly stated an instance of palpable as-
sault. The police ought not to have remained outside,
notwithstanding the direction of the churchwarden. He
thought the disturbances could most speedily be put an end
to by closing the church.
The Bishop of LONDON said there were in existence
two laws quite sufficient to meet the evil. The noble earl
had said there was some difficulty on the point, but:he
must say he could not discover any to the carrying out:of
the law. He was certain that if any of the rioters were
taken before the magistrates they would be punished. Witk
respect to closing the church, that had been tried, but he
was quite certain that if all parties concerned in the painful
proceedings were to agree to place the whole subject in his
hands; he would, ke felt assured, restore that peace which
was so much desired by all parties. (Hear, hear.)
The subject then dropped.

NICE AND SAVOY.
The Marquis of NORMANBY, who was very indistinctly
beard, rose to move an address to the crown respecting the
rumoured annexation of Savoy and Nice to France. He was
understood to express his expectation that the house would
be surprised at his so soon recurring to this subject—(hear)
—but on reading the answer of Lord J. Russell, in another
place, to a question similar to his (Lord Normanby's), it had
struck him that the explanation had been given before, and
referred not to recent interviews with Count Walewski, but
to others of a previous period. He had referred to " Han-
, sard " and found his recollection confirmed, whereas on the
other hand the French papers, which dared not publish a
word without imperial permission, were daily discussing the
annexation question. and roundly lecturing its opponents.
He believed that everything M. Grandguillot said might be
regarded as semi-official; and although he (Lord Norman-
by) could not understand it, he did not consider it the less
formidable on that account. There was a general belief
that a treaty existed between France and Sardinia respect • ,
ing this subject, and this was not completely destroyed oven
by Lord Cowley's communications. Lord Cowley believed
that the Emperor was sincrely desirous of peace, that he
was not ready for war, and that he had no engagement
with Sardinia except to defend her in case she sould be
attacked by Austria. That might be true, but still it would
be satisfactory to his Imperial Majesty's faithful allies to
know that neither at that time nor since had any engage-
ments respecting annexation been entered into. There was
great difilloulty in ascertaining the actual state of opinion in
Sardinia. He had taken great pains to ascertain it, but he
must confess that he had been unable to do so. There were
some facts, however, which were obvious. A great change
had taken place in the feelings of Savoy towards Sardinia
since 1814. Up to that time the Savoyards were devoted to
the ancient dynasty, but since then, great increase of taxa-
tion, and the necessity of crossing the Alps either for legis-
lative purposes or to fight in a cause in which they took
no interest, had very much altered their feelings. He
trusted that the justice which the King of Sardinia ex-
pected from the Emperor of the French, he would himself
extend to others, and that in any country with which he was
temporarily connected, the popular voice would be allowed
to be raised in a free and independent mannrr. He was not
inclined to enter into a consideration of the consequences of
such a magnificent harbour as that of Villafranca passing
into the hands of the Emperor of the French, but he thought
nothing could be alleged in favour of such an act of spolia-
tion. At the same time he was one of those who wished to
do complete justice to the Emperor of the French, and he
wished with all his heart that we should stand on the best
possible terms with the French nation ; but he must say he
thought that when questions were raised which directly
affected the balance of power in Europe, it was our duty to
take care that we understood to what extent other powers
were interested in regulating that settlement. He trusted
he had shown that it was not his intention tobring this sub-
ject forward in a spirit of faction against the Government.
He had a sincere conviction of the importance of the ques-
tion, and he now left it to their lordships, as it was consis-
tent with their wisdom and their conscience, to discharge
whatever they might consider to be their duty with regard
to it. The noble earl concluded by moving that an humble
address be presented to her Majesty, to represent to her
Majesty that this house had been informed that her Ma-
jesty's Government had made known to the Government of
France the objections entertained by her Majesty's Govern-
ment to the annexation of Savoy and Nice, which had been
reported to be in contemplation, and to thank her Majesty
for having conveyed that opinion to the Government of
France, and to pray that her Majesty would be graciously
pleased to direct her Government to use their best endea-
vours to avert the transfer of the abovenamed territories to
France.

Earl GRANVILLE—The noble marquis at the com-
mencement of his speech seemed to complain of the answer
which I gave to his question last week on the subject of Savoy
That answer was perfectly correct, and, although my noble
friend the Secretary for Foreign Affairs gave some fur-
ther explanations on a subsequent occasion in the other
house, his statement was not at variance with, though
going rather beyond, the answer which I returned in the
first instance to the noble marquis. Ido not know that I
can communicate to your lordships any new information
upon the subject to which the motion of the noble marquis
relates. You are aware that during the Administration of
the noble earl opposite some intelligence was received respect-
ing a treaty between Franca and Sardinia which contained
a clause affecting Savoy. Lord Cowley was requested to
ascertain whether or not the report which had reached our
Government was accurate, and he was assured by Count
Walewski that no treaty between France and Sardinia was
in existence, though it might be considered weessary to
make an offensive and defensive one. Count Walewski,
however, did not seem to attach any importance to the
rumour respecting Savoy. Lord Cowley concluded it was
incorrect, and the subject was dripped. I may state to
your lordships that the present Government of her Majesty
have continued making friendly communications to the
Governments of France and Sardinia with respect to the
reports of a proposed annexation of Savoy to the French
empire. We have been told by the Imperial Government
that there is no question at present of the annexation of
Savoy; that one of a great many points discussed before
the war was the annexation of Savoy, under certain con-
tingencies, but that those contingencies not having occur-
red, there is at this moment no question of annexation.
The French Government adds, at the 'same time, that, in
the event of Sardinia, with tie addition of Lombardy
and other provinces, becoming a powerful Italian State,.
they will feel themselves at liberty to consider what co d
tions they should attach to the sanction they might give
to
of Savoy ;
es
euicvhe
da ni arrangement.s
that
thereF is nreo m
engagement Turin the answer
whatever wee ha ve
betweenre
France and Sardinia respecting the annexation
sell, or exchange Savoy; that if the
right of
that it is not the intention of the Kingsofv oSyaardrdinsihaatvoeyield
petitioning the Sardinian Parliament;
grie-
vances to allege, they possess the constitutional
thattheir petitions
legislative measures sane-
will be removed by appropriate
I imagine every one
will be respectfully considered, and their just complaints
tioned by the Crown. (Ilea,
8 must admit hear.)
that it is undoubtedly the
t of the country, on all judicious
of your lordship
duty of the Government
speak toeu other Governments in a perfectly
open
upon all subjects which concern its interest/.
not so, there are at this moment circum-
olye
eau manner
ifthsthw
faarising from the coincidence of our policy upon the
an question, and the endeavours which we have been
making to bring the two countries into more constant inter-
communication, which would greatly facilitate such com-
munications with the Government of France. What
would render them still more easy in regard to this question
of Savoy is that it does not make any great difference to
this country, as England, whether or not France acquires
upon her southern frontier territory giving her certain
strategical advantages. What is of paramount importance

canof
r°
to e
p—ro(hineuate
peace, to maintain the balance of power—(hear, hear).- and to prevent the commission of acts
by any
nation, particularly by any of the great Powers, which
may create alarm and shake the public confidence in the
maintenance of peace. (Hear, hear.) Therefore I think it
would have been most unfriendly of her Majesty's Govern*
merit if they had not laid before that of France all the ob-
jections which, in an European sense, would arise to the
aggrandisement of the French territory which it was ru-
moured was in contemplation. It is hardly necessary to
dwell upon those objections to your lordships. No doubt
France, occupying so magnificent a geographical position se
she does, and having so gallant a people, who have lately
shown how able they are to defend themselves upen all oc-
casions, cannot pretend to be jealous of a country like Pied-
mont, even though her power should be increased by the
addition of a certain number of Italian subjects. On the
other hand, there is no doubt that this question goes beyond
the extension to the Alps, and that if you go to the Alps
there is no good reason why you should not
at a subsequent
period go beyond the Rhine. Were this not so, however,
it is clear that the annexation of Savoy to France would
give rise to great Eurepean difficulty. Among the most
noble words ever uttered by a great Sovereign at the.head
of a victorious army were those used by the Emperor cf
the French at Milan, when he told the Italians that there
friends were his friends, and their enemies his enemies;
that he had undertaken the war for their advantage, and
not for the aggrandisement of France; that, although
there might be some persons who were ignorant of the
public opinion of Europe, he was not one of them, and
that moral influence was of more advantage to a great
nation than were barren conquests. These were noble
words ; but if Savoy were annexed to France it would enable
the enemies to say that his policy was not consistent with
this declaration, and would excite doubts which would be
most injurious to the peace of Europe. In our cournadnica e
tions with the French Government we have gone into the
question more fully than it is necessary to discuss it to your
lordships, and we have done so in the confidence that our
observations would be received with a feeling as friendly as
that by which they were dictated. I beg your lordships
clearly to understand that our policy is not that of nation.
alities, alluded to by the noble marquis—(hear)—nor is it
to separate ourselves from other European Powers. Upon
the Italian question we are at this moment in communica-
tion with France, Sardinia, and Austria, and we shall be
happy to communicate with any other nations who feel an
interest in the settlement of that questionas affectingeither
Italy or Europe. Further than this we do not intend to ad-
vocate or insist upon any particular mode of carving out Italy;
we do not say that the central provinces must be joined to
Sardinia ; we do not assert that there may not be a central
monarchy in Italy. We do not say or deny that the great
majority of the people of Tuscany are in favour of the grand
dukes. If that is so, let them show and assert their opi-
nions, and it will not be for England to object to the re-
storation of their old sovereign. Our simple policy—that
which we have been urging upon other Powers and in re-
gard to which we have been met very cordially 'by France,
and as cordially as we could expect by Austria- is to avoid
any armed interference in the affairs of the peninsula, and
to secure that the Italians shall be left to judge what is
good for themselves, and in what mode their ideas of liberty
and independence can best be carried out. (Hear, hear.)
This motion itself has been framed in very courteous terms,
and, as stated by the noble marquis, is intended to co-
operate with and strengthen her Mal, sty's Government. I
am of opinion that it would not have that effect. Your
lordships are perfectly well aware that at this moment the
enemies of the Government of France are trying to raise a
cry that the religion and commerce of that country are
being sacrificed to English interests, and under these cir-
cumstances I do not think that it would assist her Majesty's
Government that a motion made by the noble marquis, who
has to-night spoken of the Emperor with very great respect,
but who at the same time holds very peculiar and very
strong opinions upon continental politics, should be forced
upon them ; especially when they declare their intention
upon all suitable occasions to give their advice and exert
their influence to prevent that which the noble marquis
deprecates. I quite acquit the noble marquis of having in-
tended that the Government or your lordships should pledge
theinseives to war or menaces of any description. (Hoar,
hear.) But, even in its more limited sense, I think the
motion would rather weaken than strengthen the Govern-
ment, and therefore I hope that the noble marquis will not
think it necessary to press it to a division.
Earl GREY—I think that the house is much obliged to
the noble marquis for bringing this subject forward. It
seems to me to be impossible to over estimate its import-
ance, and I confess that I should have heard with great
pleasure a different conclusion to the speech of my noble
friend who has just sat down. I should like to have heard
him state that her Majesty's Government would agree to
the address proposed. The statement which he has just
made affords the clearest proof of the necessity for this mo-
tion, because I think your lordships will agree with line
that it is difficult to conceive anything more alarming than
some of the language which fell from my noble friend.
Nothing can well be more unsatisfactory than that which
he describes to have been the language of the French Go-
vernment on this subject, coupled with that which has been
used in the semi-official newspapers of Franco. It is, in-
deed, difficult to conceive that this scheme of the annexa-
tion of Savoy to France has not gone further than we could
wish. That annexation would be so pregnant with evil to
this country and to Europe that it becomes her Majesty's
Government to use their best endeavours to avert it. I quite
agree with my noble friend that, as far as we are at present
informed of the facts, no man in this 'mute can wish that
war should be resorted to to prevent such an arrangement
being effected ; but there is a great deal short of war which
may be done by a nation to prevent the adoption of mea-
sures which are injurious to its interests and to those of
the world ; and I can conceive no case which calls for
more energetic remonstrance than the annexation
which is supposed to be in contemplation. Ido not
pretend to say that the annexation of Savoy to France
would materially alter the balance of power in Europe.
Whatever may be the obvious objections to this ex-
tension of the frontiers of France, still, when we look at
what the power of that great empire is at present, I cannot
think that the addition of Savoy of itself would throw so
great a weight into the scale as to be of any very serious
importance. Nor do I believe that the honour of this coun-
try is involved in preventing the arrangement if the two
parties more immediately interested should agree to it. But,
although it may not in its direct consequences be so injuri-
ous as to induce this country to resist it by an appeal to force,
still I think if we look at the subject closely we shall be
convinced that few events would be more injurious both to
this country and to Europe than the proposed annexation,
as well from its indirect effects as from the principle which
it would tend to establish if it were to be carried out en the
grounds that have been put forward in support of it. My
lords, in considering this question we cannot lose sight of
the reasons that have been urged in its favour by journals in
France, which have an importance that does not usually be-
long to newspapers unless they have the countenance of the
Government. Now, what are those reasons ? My noble
friend has already referred to that most extraordinary article
which appeared ix the Patric a few days ago, and which I
venture to say must have astounded every one of your
lordships who read it. That article states that two measures
cannot be applied to Savoy and to Italy; and that it is in-
tolerable that the Government of Sardinia should interfere
with the manifestation of the wishes of the Savoyards.
(Hear, hear.) I think that every one of your lordships
concurs in the principle that no nation ought to be com-
pelled by foreign force to submit to a Government to, which
it is averse. The passage in the Queen's Speech in which
that principle was enunciated with regard to Italy received,
I believe, the unanimous approval of your lordships. But,
my lords, it would indeed be to push that principle to new
and somewhat dangerous lengths if it is to be assumed,
not only that a nation, which is di facto in the enjoy-
ment of self-government, is not to be coerced by the
arms of a foreign Power, but that you are to go beyond that
plain and simple rule, and to say that even where a settled
and long established Government exists—where a people
aro living contentedly and peaceably under the rulers who
have for centuries reigned over them, a few agitators are to
be permitted to declare that the opinion of the country is
the other way ; that it wishes to shake off the authority to
which it is by law subject ; and that it is intolerable in the
Government to adopt any means of counteracting the efforts
of those who seek to subvert it. Why, if this rule °lintel-
national right and wrong is to be recoemised, we must be
supposed to have acted most unwarrantably in 1848, when
we would not suffer persons to put the question to the peo-
ple of Ireland whether or not the dominion of England over
that country should be continued. (Cheers.) Is it to be
held as an indication that the people of Savoy are hostile to
the existing rule, that a few individuals get up demonstra-
tions against the Government; and is it to bemaintained that
the Government, instead of putting these persons down by
the strong hand, must allow them to have their own way,
and then have the question of the continuance of the exist-
ing authority submitted to the vote? I venture to say, if
that principle is to be established, that no Government in
Europe is safe for a day. (Cheers.) Would that principle
be allowed by France itself? How would the present Em-
peror receive the proposal that it should be again submitted
to the people of France whether they would have as Empire,
a Red Republic, or an Orleanist or Legitimist dynasty ? I
thean i seen rtot
ltehdii tGa
Government
epnutttiinngFfroarnwcae d
rdwseuuclhampreoept with veryosalagainst
prompt repression. (Hear.) We are further told that the
Alps are the natural boundary of France, and that also
Savoyards are united to the French people by a community
of language. Do these pleas dimininsh the danrgeeepf_esMas
lords, we cannot help seeing whither such poinje.,
these lead. Do not the majority of the peopleao of Belgium
speak French as well as the inhabitanrtsof S_evlor
oflurn
unjust
grounds as these are to be assigned foF the d
has Europe that other aggressions of
to
me,
therefore, that
hmww(weoCehinuhi ulctedfhl hears.
lebo neuillaardgk
Nweb,
teehai
rtyayi
ntddi
a appear
induced
eet
erhdei different
to
tm
momentaa er
concure r
be attempted ? (Cheers.). It appears France, under present
territorial acquisition on the part of
therasancele,ewkihaadtteseacyurinotyt
circumstances, is one which this and alarm, and I certainly
with the greatest apprehension
house might be induced to
the proposal for joining Savoy
countryt has a right to view
adit
wedouthldatdoifiniotrareehanare so
the address which the noble
the last person to suggest that
marquis has moved.
be I
pressed contrary to the desire of her
the motion should
ashgToeueldhyhaavuenahnlpemodesthlraoattmettohis
ed even though
this
press
good—(cheers)—end for simple reason—that it
than th t there exists
a a difference of opinion
werreacamrnpeersdu,
in England, where I believreenoisuchitdifference really exists.
ended—it would make it appear that
Majesty's Government.
.t
I believe we aal Munited in condemning d
hieh is su g an
reprobating the scheme w pposed to be in agitation.
If, therefore, we were to come to a diviston on the question
a very considerable number of your lordships dissented
iifnuhntheanri
eiMminaoejutesisetehyx.'pereGiseaosiv.onnernn
00-ft
from what I think is our general opinion. Bat it
the sentiments of this house would have great influence ea
the opinion of France and of the world. Powerful as Prance
may be, I do not believe that she would despise such a
manifestation, backed as it would be by the views of every
other country in Europe. (Hear.) I would therefore ear-
nestly entreat my noble friend who spoke last seriously to
consider this subject. I would especially ask him what
motive he can have for resisting this motion. My noble
friend who brought it forward stated most distinctly that
he did so without in any way implying the most distant
censure on the Government. On the contrary, his first
words were those of thanks to the Government for the
course which they have taken. The only object of the mo-
tion is to strengthen their hands in pursuing the same line
of policy which, if I understood my noble friend aright it
is their intention, of their own accord, to follow. The
sin-
gle objection, which, as I gathered from my noble friuld.,
they have to this motion, is the fear that it might be Ems-
interpreted in France. My lords, I cannot believe the:.
there is any ground for such a fear ; I cannot suppose ths
our opinion against rile
towards himself in our expressing
the Emperor of the French would see anything unfriendly
measure which he is supposed to contemplate. On the cwt.-
trary, I think if the opinion of this house and the countri