The Sun.
London, England, 1860-08-03 00:00:00

hensive effort attempt to do that which would put them in
a state of security at once. That motion was discussed in
that house, and he was certain that if the Government had
not given it to b 3 understood that they intended
seriously to con ider this matter, that motion would
have been carried. Well, that commission had brought for-
ward a very masterly report, which declared that it was our
duty to defend ourselves by the best means which science
and art could afford us. (Hear, hear.) That report was now
before the house, and he would not, therefore, go into any
details upon it; but if the house should be of opinion that
the whole of this supposed weakness of our dockyards and
arsenals was purely imaginary, and that fortifications was
not the way to defend them, but, on the Spartan principle,
that we should trust to flesh and blood, that house would
reject the resolution of the noble lord, and it would be for
the Government to say what they would do under the pres-
sure of a responsibility so heavy. But his belief was that
that house fully represented the feelings of the country on
this subject. (Hear, hear.) They might have discussions as
to the how and the when and the where, but he believed it
was the unanimous opinion of the country that they ought
not to allow those great depositories of their naval strength
to lie at the mercy of any one. (Wear, hear.) Ho had
heard it said by some we ought to increase our standing
army; but there were 15 battalions now due to us—three
on the sea coming from India, three more promised by
India and nine in China. But with a large force of volun-
teers they must take measures to release from garrison duty
as large an amount of the regular army as they could spare
for duty in the field. His hon. friend (Mr. H. Berkeley)
quoted a gallant officer, Sir M. Berkeley, who told them not
to spend anything on fortifications. He (Mr. S. Herbert)
had been told by seamen to trust to ships, and ships alone ;
he was told by artillerymen to trust to trained gunners ; he
had been told by officers of the line to trust to the military
only—in fact it was the old story of " Nothing like leather."
(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) The Government had appointed
a commission which surveyed the whole of the neighbour-
hood of London, and the whole coasts of England, Ireland,
and Scotland, and by means of that commission the house
had got together an enormous amount of informationwhich
in case of hostilities would be invaluable to officers in com-
mand. (Hear.) He believed the amount of stores collected
was very great. He heard a gallant officer say that our great
fortresses had only 150 rounds of artillery ; but he (Mr. S.
Herbert) had got a return which showed that those fortresses
had got, some of them 350 rounds, and some of them as much
as 1,000 rounds, and he did not believe those fortresseswere
ever better stocked than they were at present. He had
stated now to the house that he believed the country saw
the necessity and believed in the wisdom of the measure
which Government proposed. The Government had not put
themselves blindfold into the hands of engineers, or of ar-
tillery or naval officers—they had taken counsel from all as
to the best means of putting the country in a proper state
of defence. The Government did not pretend to say that
those works would prevent invasion. No works, no navy,
no army would do that. Invasion—meaning thereby the
landing of troops—would be always a possibility ; but let
them make these chief points invulnerable, and when
they had made Portsmouth and Plymouth safe, they
might concentrate their forces elsewhere. He believed
that years hence, if these works were executed, gentlemen
would be found who would say that they always predicted
nobody would ever land at these places, and would exclaim
" See how you have wasted our money." But he (Mr. S.
Herbert) would not be disturbed by those predictions. He
should look upon an investment of money in defending those
places as the best safeguard against the landing of an enemy.
(Hear.) He hoped therefore the house would agree with
him in thinking that the Government were only asking to
hasten the completion of that system of works which the
house had already one by one sanctioned. With these opi-
nions, and with the greatest confidence as to the result, he
left the measure in the hands of the house, trusting to that
patriotism which they had always displayed in every mat-
ter in which the national safety and the national honour
were involved. (Loud cheers from both sides of the house.)
Mr. BRIGIIT said he had given notice of an amendment
to the resolution of the noble lord, but his hon. friend the
member for Sunderland was before him with an amendment
not exactly of the same character, but which still, if earried,
would have the same effect upon the resolution of the noble
lord. It was not therefore his (Mr. Bright's) intention to
move the amendment of which he had given notice, but he
would take that opportunity of making some observations
upon the present stage at which they now found themselves.
He wished to point out to the committee that the resolution
of the noble lord, though it was of a simple character, and
merely asked the house to vote a sum of money towards
the defences of our dockyards and arsenals, and Dover and
Portland, besides a central arsenal, of nearly £2,000,000,
the right hon. gentleman (Mr. S. Herbert) said it was
something like £5,000,000 they were going to divide upon.
o thought the committee would deceive themselves if
they imagined they were now discussing a question of
£2,000,000 only, or £5,000,000 only ; because they knew
that the noble lord at the head of the Government had
adopted almost in their entirety the propositions contained in
the report of the Defence Commission, and he (Mr. Bright)
thought he was wars anted in saying from experience that
whenever the Government undertook any great work or any
small work the estimates were never adhered to, but, on
the contrary, in some cases were doubled before the works
were completed. Ho had no doubt, judging from the past,
that if they voted what the notle turd risked them to do,
they would vote what would turn out to be an expenditure
of at least £20,000,000 sterling. (Hear.) Let the com-
mittee remember that what the noble lord asked for did not
include a central arsenal at Cannock Chase at all. Bud
even that was not all, because there were countless
millions more involved in the report of the Defence Com-
mission, and they expressed almost an unanimous opinion
that we should have to largely increase our standing army,
and that those very works which the noble lord asked
them to vote for would be valueless unless they had some
70,000 men to man and defend them. (Hear, hear.) Now
he thought the noble lord at the head of the Government
did the committee great injustice the other night when he
brought forward this motion without any notice, or without
giving an opportunity for discussing it. He (Mr. Bright)
should like to ask the gentlemen who sat on that front
bench (the Treasury bench) whether they were unanimous
as to this expenditure, and whether they came before the
house as a united Cabinet—(hear)—or whether this was a
compromise to get over a quicksand which was in their
midst. He did not believe that the Government did come
before the house with unanimity on this great question.
Tho late Sir R. Peel in 1851 discussed the value of military
evidence. (The hon. member here read a passage in which
Sir R. Peel warned the house against embarking in enor-
mous expense, on the authority of military officers). He
(Mr. Bright) said the right hon. gentleman (Mr. S. Her-
bert) admitted he had taken the advice of naval and mili-
tary officers in this matter, and ho (Mr. Bright) believed if
the house adopted these resolutions they would absorb
the whole industry of the country. (Hoar, hear.) He had
no doubt that many members of the house had had showers
of military opinions brought to them by every post
for some months past. He had not expected the discussion to
come on this session, or he would have made a collection of
them, and have extracted a few passages to show the house
what kind of things were recommended for their adoption.
One, and by no means an irrational man, proposed that as
we had a standing army we should have also a standing navy
—that we should have a force of 30,000 always on board the
ships, and some 10,000 always in the marine barracks—that
they should all be in a position to march on board at five
minutes' notice; and he added, that then we should have the
country admirably defended. (A laugh.) Another gentle-
man, Lieut.-Colonel Valentine Baker, of the 10th Hussars,
had published a pamphlet, in which he recommended the
establishment of a militia of 180,000 framed on the census
and chosen by ballot, and the formation of a sort of national
guard consisting of 500,000 men, who should be mustered for
one day each year. (Laughter.) Ho (Mr. Bright) was not one
of those who thought that, considering ourmeans of defence.
it might not be very advantageous to have a large volunteer
force instead of an enormous standing army. He found that
in Switzerland and in the United States—countries one of
which was surrounded or partly encompassed by a perilous
enemy, and the other a nation which marched with a high
hand among the powers of the globe—there was no standing
army, but the whole defence was committed to a volunteer
force. If the house would only have the common sense to
get rid of the noble lord the member for the City—not as
member for the City, but as Foreign Minister—together
with the Foreign-office and its delusions, policy, supersti-
tions, and absurdities, he thought it not at all unlikely that
we might save three-fourths of all the expenditure now
involved in the maintenance of that foreign policy, and
whatever was required for the defence of a country, united
and populous like this, might be had at comparatively no
expense by the volunteer service of young men below
middle age. (Hear, hear.) But Colonel Valentine Baker
said that we must have contracts for earthworks
all round London capable of being completed in a fort-
night, and that a small annual sum should be paid to the
contractor as a compensation for his holding the contract,
se that whenever the enemies, who had been so long ex-
pected but had never come, were fairly on their way, in a
single fortnight the contractors were to build earthwork
fortifications all round London. Colonel Baker also recom-
mended that 20,000 metropolitan police should be armed
and equipped, that there should be a volunteer force of
200,000, that there should be an entrenched camp at Alder-
shott and on Epsom Downs for 40,000 men each. Accord-
ing to Colonel Baker's scheme there would be a force of
1,072,000, the whole of which would not cost so much as the
present plan of the Government. Then, again, proposals
had been made by Colonel Jebb—a gentleman whom 20
years ago he (Mr. Bright) considered a very sensible man.
(Laughter.) Colonel Jebb had published a pamphlet from
which it appeared that he was in a state of great alarm
as to the necessity of defending London. He prorsed
to begin at Tunbridge-Wells, to go on to Reigate,
Guildford, Reading, and Henley, and probably he also
included Colchester in his line of defence. Yet the gallant
f
officer quoted with apparent approbalt;itionitoamn
expression
no land -
Gen. Lewis, " It may be considered
ing could successfully be effected in the presence of 2,?00
men well prepared." If he (Mr. Bright) had said anything
of that kind he would have been treated as a person utterly
ignorant and foolish in the matter. Surely, with railways
all around the coast and telegraphs as frequent as railways
it would not be difficult at any time to assemble 2,000 men
at any given point. Next came Lieut. Gen. Mackintosh,
who referred to a pamphlet receatly publisbed rgis, Dad

said that Ireland and that part of the kingdom should not be
left with less than 30,000 infantry. These gentlemen might
know something about military matters, but everybody did
not know that a great number of the pamphlets published in
France in reference to this country were pamphlets pub-
lished by a certain party who believed that the best mode
of overturning the present dynasty was to beget first dis-
trust and afterwards war between France and England.
Probably many gentlemen who then heard him believed
that the French Emperor by the present law could prevent
any of these pamphlets being published, but the fact was
that it was only by outstepping the law that that Govern-
ment could interfere with a pamphlet before it had been
published. It was not so with newspapers. A newspaper
could be warned, and, after three warnings, suppressed, but
there was no such law with regard to pamphlets; and the
miserable pamphlets issued from the Paris press, and quoted
as proofs of the hostility of the French Government to Eng-
land, were the productions not of persons in favour of the
French Government, but of those who were anxious, as he
had jest remarked, to create first distrust and then war be-
tween France and England, with a view of overturning the
present dynasty and setting upon the throne some member
of the two branches of that family now in exile.
Colonel Mackintosh said there must be a fort at,
the north of London, covering Hampstead and High-
gate, and he added, what might be consolatory to the Is Dll.
member for Lambeth if he happened to live on the or her
side of the water, that the north could be much r.iorc
readily defended than the south, inasmuch as the bridges
could be broken down and the river rendered impassable.
(A laugh.) He did not find in the proposition made by th e
noble lord at the head of the Government that these recom-
mendations were adopted, and therefore as the noble lord
himself was not a great military authority, and in politics
was very frequently mistaken and in error--(laughter)—he
must beg leave to form his own opinion upon a question in.
reference to which there were so many councilors. He had
in his possession two or three more extracts similar to those
from which he had already quoted, 'and as they were from
the writings of persons important as military men he
thought he was entitled to ask the Government who was the
authority they followed, how far they went, and how much
they would expend in the impossible object they had in.
view? Gen. Sir R. Gardner, an officer well acquainted wait
fortifications and who was only the other day Governor 'of
Gibraltar, though he certainly had not shone with 'any
lustre as a statesman and a governor, said in a pacasahlet
which he had sent about most industriously, that an ex-
penditure of twenty millions would not be sufficient for the
additional fortification required. Lieutenant-General Ken-
nedy, in a new edition of his pamphlet, proposed to fortify
London by surrounding it with a line of forts, each armed
with 40 guns and with 500 men, extending in a circumfer-
ence through Hammersmith, Wormwood Scrubs, Willes-
den- green, Hampstead, Tottenham, over the River Lea, to
Deptford, Norwood, Streatham, and Wandsworth. A
writer in the United Service Magazine, who he presuroed
combined the authority of the army and navy, said in a late
number, " The steam navy alone required should consist of
no less than 1,056 vessels of all sorts of which we are at
present deficient ; 101 screw line-of-battle ships, 6 block
ships, 74 steam frigates, 67 steam corvettes and sloops, 7
floating batteries or rams, 266 gunboats, and 86 mortar ves-
sels." Now that was published in the United Service
Magazine, a periodical read in military circles, and pre-.
sumed by the editor not to be absolute idiotey,
or else it would not have been published. (Laughter.)
Another writer in a pamphlet headed, " Invasion rendered
impossible, by a member of the Royal Naval and Military
Institution," proposed to place permanently along th .e open
beaches, at the mouth of the rivers, all round our great road-
steads, and in front of all our sea-coast towns, long 32
pounder guns, at a distance of 30 yards apart. (Laughter.)
No doubt, if the noble lord at the head of the Government
had proposed something like this for a long extent of coast,
many men who now laughed would have thought the pro-
positions the height of wisdom. (Laughter.) The scheme
would give sixty guns to every mile, and each 'gun was to
be manned by one captain and ten men, the men to consist
of paid volunteers from the towns and villages on the coast
and a few miles inland. Assuming that there were 300
miles of coast line in Great Britain that needed defending,
18,000 guns would be required, with 18,000 captains, and
180,000 men. M. Brialmont, who published a History o 1
the Battle of Waterloo ; or, a Life of the Duke of 'Welling..
ton, whose father was a great authority, and supposed to
be the eldest officer in Europe, said there must be an enor-
mous increase of the fortifications of Chatham, a new, for .
tress at Guildford, and a great depot, with a vast (Alt enched •
camp at Croydon, adding that these works, wi.ch the re-or-
ganisation of the English army on the basis of the con-
scription, would render England invincible at home. M.
Brialrnont's plan also involved the augmentation of the
standing army, and the erection of a grand strategical
pivot in the south, in the neighbourhood of London. He
now came to the proposition of the commission. The cora-
missioners said very early in their report that " having
carefully weighed certain foregoing considerations, we aro
led to the opinion that neither our fleet, nor our standing
army, nor our volunteer force, nor even the three combined,
*an be relied on as sufficient in themselves for the se-
curity of the kingdom against foreign invasion." Their
report proceeded upon a desponding principle through-
out. They assumed that there would be scene
grand combination of all the maritime nations, of
the earth against .England, but if we pursued a
policy of justice and courtesy in dealing with foreign na-
tions he (Mr. Bright) believed that a combination of the
great maritime powers against this country was absolutely
impossible. The commissioners talked of a a sudden naval
combination, but there could bo none. How long did it take
to negotiate the smallest and most inconsiderable matter ?
We learned here by every day's post, and sometimes before the
hand of the clock had marked hero what it had marked
eastward, the negotiations, and plots, and conspiracies
which were being hatched in the courts of Europe, and yet
these seven men talked about a sudden naval combination
among the maritime nations. The right hon. gentleman
who had just addressed the house said nothing could be more
carefully drawn and better considered than this report, and
yet he (Mr. Bright) 'Aeclared without the slightest hesita
tion that he had never read anything of an official cha-
racter so 'utterly incoherent, illogical, and absurd..
(Laughter and cheers.) They said that with the powers
of concentration steam now afforded, a force could
be assembled before daylight upon any point sole cted
for an attempt and thrown upon the shores in two or three
hours. That was just the sort of twaddle, just the sort of
stuff which filled up the columns of the .Morning Advar-
tiser. (Great laughter.) He could scarcely conceive how
seven gentlemen—major-generals, admirals, captains,
F.R.S.'s, and everything else, could. offer to the Queen and.
Parliament a report containing such monstrous absurdities.
(Laughter.) They went on to say that 'without secure forts
behind which the fleet could find refuge in case of disas-
ters, certain things must occur. The whole report pro-
ceeded upon the assumption that nothing was to be met
with but disaster. We might for 300 years have had
nothing but naval disaster in our history to justify the tone
these gentlemen took. (Hear, hear.) They said, with an
attempt at fairness which made the thing much worse,
" Doubtless the defence would be somewhat aided by the
railways and telegraphs." When they wanted to say
what France could do they related the powers of her steam-
boats, railways and telegraphs, but when they wished to
say what we could do, they simply said, " doubtless the
defence would be somewhat aided by railways and tele-
graphs." The whole thing was a foregone conclusion, and
the commissioners need not have stepped beyond the
threshold of their own office to have considered their re-
port. On the contrary, they might have gathered all -these
absurd paragraphs from any newspaper in London, without
any scientific inquiry at all. (Hear, hear.) The noble
lord had inserted in the resolution " works to protect th e
harbours of Dover and Portland." But the commissioners
said the defences of Dover were worth very little, and if
they did not happen to be there, they did not know that
they would recommend any expenditure at Dover at all.
Consequently we had fortifications which did n.ot defend
any one, and for which there was no necessity:, and we
were to be put to an expense of £350,000 in, adding to
them. (Hear, hear.) It was said now that Dover was to
be made a harbour of refuge, it was more necessary to have
these defences, but why should harbours of refuge be de-
fended as if ships entered them for the purpose of making
them their permanent abode ? With regard to Portland,
the commissioners said there was no naval establish-
ment there, and that so far as they were aware, it was
not intended to form one ; and yet they proposed to expend
£630,000 in the defence of the roadstead and harbour of
Portland. He wished that some gentleman accurately in-
formed upon military matters could have gone through the
evidence given before the commission, so as to have given
to the house a picture of its gross and ludicrous
inconsistencies. A Colonel Bingham was examined, who
said the Government would require for these works 72,000
trained and 108,000 untrained men, making 180,000
alto"
gether. He further said that there were re
defence of the dockyards, towns, and batteries
time
more than 3,000 guns, but he told them theaoient to work the
same!qsairedon thefo for the
that at present there were notmen
Admiral Sir T. Maitland,
1,000 now existing. Then again
d them that no forts could
on destroying an arn 1.
Captain Sullivan, and othersl
prevent iron-plated ships going ena
Sir
J.
Burgoyne,
frankness, a man
of great ability and of undoubted
honesty
said that in the present state of
gunnery it would be impossible to defend Portsmouth
without
lines ranging
f
from 30 to 40 miles ; and that he
would rather trust to an army in the field. He (Mr.
Bright was talking the other day to a gentleman who did.
not seem to be much in favour 'with the Secretary for War,
but who was for all that the greatest machinist in England,
Mr. 'Whitworth, of Manchester. (Hear, hear.) That gen-
tleman told him that he would undertake to throw a 701 b.
shell filled with molten iron six miles. (Murmurs.) The
statement seemed to startle hon. members ; Mr. Whitworth
said he believed ho could accomplish seven miles, but he
would guarantee six. The whole system of warfare was
in short, about to undergo a change as great probably as
that which took place when gartpowder first begax' to b
used. (Hear, hear.) And yet they had a Goveranri_
to
its fussy activity—(laughter and cheers)—not d
day nto an
tell the people the truth, but rushing
everthat twelve
extravagant expenditure, though they knew rig
gnt in
of no effect., Yet,
months all they. now did would be
was for the it Iterest of
patriots, and told. 'people
forsooth, they claimed to be great;
that they alone knew
trade. Of course he Pi
whatfight) did not k Am, ty,