The Sun.
London, England, 1860-02-29 00:00:00

THE SUN LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 29, 1860.

this country determined to stand. If any man cast his
eyes over that part of the world he would see what
would become of the integrity of Switzerland, if that part
of it were to be surrounded in the way it would be by the
French empire if this annexation took place. Switzerland
would be jammed in between the fangs of two departments
of France, and the maintenance of the neutrality of Switzer-
land, after such an event, would be an almost geographical
impossibility. He knew it was constantly said that the treaties
since 1815 had been thought so little of and so often violated
that we need not make ourselves uneasy at the exact ob-
servance of any particular treaty. He could understand why
erroneous views of this kind had originated, but he
thought he would be able to show the house this kind of
cynical indifference as to the application of treaties had no
reference to the engagements by which we were bound as to
those countries which bordered upon France. (Hear.)
Many of the engagements made at the settlement of 1815—
as for instance that iu reference to the republic of Cracow
—were of such a nature that although the parties to those
arrangements had a clear right to remonstrate if those
arrangements should be violated, still there was no obliga-
tion on the part of any of those states to take steps in case
they were violated. Such was the case with respect to Cra-
cow and the Italian States. Another class of treaties there
was by which this country had guaranteed to some other
States the ownership and independence of their territory ; of
these Switzerland was one. But the third class of treaties
was more important ; such was that by which the great
Powers guaranteed that the territory verging on Fiance
should not be annexed to the French empire. The defini-
tive treaty between France and the allied Powers was
signed Nov. 20, 1815, and it provided by the first article that
,the frontiers of France shall be the same as in 1790, save and
i except as to the modifications contained in that article, and
then it went on to define the frontier of France exactly as it
now stands. Had the matter remainedtkere it would have
stood exactly on the same footing as the republic of
Cracow with any other States of Europe to which the
guarantee applied. But the feeling of the four great powers
was not such as to leave the future policy of Europe at the
whim and disposal of theotherpowers. One of the strongest
acts known in diplomacy was resorted to, namely, that one
of the four great powers was made to engage with each of the
other great Powers singly, that it would maintain the treaty
in full force and vigour. The treaty was signed the same
day between this country and Austria, and subsequently
similar treaties were signed between England and France.
The high contracting parties respectively promised to main-
tain in full force and vigour the treaty signed by his most
Christian Majesty, and to see the stipulations in the said
treaty, as well as those particular conventions, strictly and
faithfully executed to the fullest extent. By a protocol it
was provided that the King of Sardinia (a protocol drawn
up at the same time) should raise out of a common fund,
under the control of the four great Powers, 10,000,000 f.,
which were to be laid out in fortifying and strengthening
her defences bordering' upon France. But he wished the
house to observe the effect which the annexation of Savoy
would have upon what he must suppose was dear to every
member of that house—freedom of action. At present it
was important to us to stand aloof in any great European
struggle, and to determine whether we should or should not
take part in it ; but let this annexation once take place and
our freedom of action is for ever gone. For, no sooner had
the casus feederis arrived than Russia, or Prussia, or Aus-
tria, separately and without joint action, might call upon
us to fulfil our treaty, and we should fulfil it or have the
dishonour of not fulfilling our obligations. Ho could not
forget that the kingdom of Sardinia was governed on princi-
ples which were in that country strongly respected. He did
not intend to compare the institutions of Sardinia with
those of this country, he would be pardoned for saying he
preferred his own. In his opinion they' could not con-
sent to the loss of Nice and Sardinia without defacing the
map of Europe. He did not see that there had been the
slightest jealousy in this country of the large an-
nexations which. Fiance had made to her empire in the north
of Africa—in Algeria. Neither himself nor any other tra-
veller, upon his return to this country, had shown any such
feeling, though there could be no doubt but that France
greatly enhanced her material strength and increased her
military power by, those conquests. The reason why he was
opposed to France annexing Savoy and Nice was, because
the annexation of those districts would unsettle Europe.
The Government of Sardinia was a settled Government,
and the Government of France was a new institution. He
could, therefore, very well enter into the feelings of those
Savoyards and people of Nice who preferred remaining
subjects of Sardinia ; they admitted the great glory of
France, but they respectfallv said in that glory they had no
desire to share, Where hadthis scheme for the annexation
of Savoy originated ? The Emperor of France when he
engaged in the last Italian war obtained the acquiescence
of Europe on the solemn assurance that he entertained no
scheme involving the aggrandisement of France. Count
Walewski in a despatch to the Due de Malakoff, then Am.
bassador here, said that the Government of the Emperor
was not influenced by any arriere pense'e, or ambitious
views, that he had nothing to dissemble and nothing to
conceal. Coming more closely to the discussion of the pre-
sent subject, Count Walewski again wrote to the Due de
Malakoff, that the passes of the Alps were not in French
hands, but it was in the highest degree important to us
(France) that the keys of them should remain at Turin
solely (uniquenient). The count added, that the Emperor
had no desire to separate his views rem those of his allies.
We come next to a still more startling declaration made in
the proclamation of the Emperor at Milan on the Bth of June:
'—" Yore enemies, who are my enemies, hove endeavoured
to diminish the sympathies that exist throughout all
Europefor your cause, by trying to persuade the world that I
am, in carrying on this war, actuated by personal motives,
for the aggrandisement of France.
are fe. eater by the morel influence they exercise than by
any barren conquests, and this moral. influence I seek
after by endeavouring to emanc'pato one of the most been-
tiful countries in Europe." He must frankly acknowledge
that he did not understand the 'erect impel.; of these words
of the Emperor, for it happened that he had in the cleawer
of his table a document which led him to suspect that these
words of the proclamation were not entitled to more weight
than those of the bulletins of the former, so that his (Mr.
Kinglake's) ideas were not of vei f recent date. Eleven
months ago, in March past, when peace prevailed in Eu-
rope, he felt it to be his duty t r make a communication to
the Governinent, a'though then in opposition, and he corn-
munieated to the elect a paper which, with the permission
of the house, he wou'd now rer 1. He might be permitted
to say that he had received this paper under circumstances
which fully justified lim in making any use of it which
he might have thought proper. But the house must not
ask him to give the name of his auf hori;., ; all he could
saY on that point was—speaking on his honour—that he
had it from a sorece which made him fully believe in its
truth. He spoke in the presence of an hon. gentleman op-
posite (Mr. S. Fitzgerald), who world bear kim out when
he said this was not a new thought with him. The com-
munication was as follOWs :—" On the evering before the
marriage of the Princess Clothilde a paper was signed•by
the Emperor of the French, which was called a pacte de
famille, not a treaty or convention promising aid offensive
and defensive to Sardinia, the King on his side promising
Savoy and Nice to France in return for whatever posses-
sions he may gain in Lombardy. The paper was signed
by Walewski." Lord Malmesbury desired Lord Cowley
to ask a question on the slibject ; but then the noble
earl used the word tredly, and not pacte de fa-
mille. The answsr came, of course, following the
words of the question, saying that there had been no treaty;
but Count Walewski was very reserved on the subject of
territorial arrangements. Lord Cowley's despatch to Lord
Malmesbury wee to the effect that Count Walewski having
given him an oppotunity, he thought it right, without
putting to him any question on the subject, to let him
know that her Majesty's government were in possession of
information that a treaty had been signed on the 17th Jan.
between France.an 1 Sardinia; and Count Walewski re-
plied, " that all he could assure him was that up to this
moment there was no treaty whatever. He made no allu-
sion to the territorial question." No disclosure was made
for a long time, and not until the month of Jelly, when the
noble lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs announced the
peace of Villafranca, and that he had authority to,announce
that there was no intention on the part of the Efnperor to
annex Savoy and Nice. The existence ,of this pacte de
famille, or - this arrangement, seemed to have been well
concealed until he gave his first notice of motion on this
matter, and he then introduced into it the words " pacte de
famine." It then became known that this was a matter
which could be no longer concealed from Europe, and Lord
Granville, on the 7th Feb. last, disclosed, not in complete
language, but in language which shadowed out the truth,
the existence of something like the arrangement of which
he had spoken. The noble lord said they had been told by
the imperial government that there was no question on the
annex,ianoaetiacainturnoatheslhjnrrdenfeoNmioofte Savoy; that one of the many points die-
cussed before the war was the annexation:4 Savoy under
certain contingencies, but these contingencies not having
occurred, there was at that moment no question of annexa-
tion • and the French Government added, that in the
event' of Sardinia obtaining a great addition of territory,
they would feel themselves at liberty to consider
what conditions they should attach to such annexation.
There apparently the matter stood. He did not doubt that
before the war there was an arrangement that in exchange
for Lombardy the Emperor of the French should become
possessecia , avoy and Nice, but the Emperor having failed
ntupilisnoeroauomtpv:viirornlabeoysgcevitovering the whole of Lombardy the contingency
failed
teer thetehd il henvaewtut
rnopseti
proposition
esuree
taeeanf
foltni:yn, ocete ,
ttahos b, h,
fwe
be
nvhhutkgeeididti
when
kingdom
CSaigeei
nenfatanraroa 1
litdmoncrei
aacneFtlrai
oe circumstancesrar
nswfda,
France
c he
did underbelieved,not
escedoec
whichuoccur.
teoaasutnaael apparent
dpnoinifreo
ie.
intention
atiaaol
ntynnhddoacftto haut
began henl
then
the Emperor of the French reverted to his original notion,
that if Sardinia was to become aggrandised, though not
originally intended but in fact, h should feel himself en-
titled titled to insist upon the annexation of Savoy to France,
under the provisions of the pacte de famille. But they had
happily since been told that this 'annexation would not be
carried into effect by the Emperor without consulting the
great Powers of Eueope. Her Majesty's ambassador at
Paris had addressed the Emperor on the subject, and he
was assured that the Emperor would not proceed to a final
decision in this matter without consulting the great Powers.
If they were t6ld by a plain man that he would not do some-
thing witnout consulting a third party, they might infer
that in addition to censulting, him he would be governed by
the advice which he received. But when they found that
contemporaneously with this statement that the Emperor
would consult the great Powers, he asserted that a portion of
Savoy was necessary to the empire of France, they would be
led to fear that that was rather an indication on the part of
France of what she meant to do, than any question of
inquiry as to what the other Powers might think to be
right. (Hear, hoar.) When the four great Powers were
consulted upon this subject in the way now intended,
he hoped and trusted that the answer of our Go-
vernment would be so closely similar to the answer of
every other, that all Europe should know that the four
great Powers were of one mind. (Hear.) He heard it said
that it was well this country should be ailied to France, and
that there should be a treaty of alliance between them. But
treaties of alliance did not depend upon proximity, nor upon
caprice, but on community of interests. Did they or did,
they not desire the same as the other Powers of Europe
He believed that England anxiously desired peace; then lie
thought tlie,allice of England must also desire peace. Would
the Emperor persist in this scheme ?
_He believed he was
naturally a man of much naeleration. He was a thought-
ful person, very alive to difficulties ; but he was armed with
a power which had annexed to it a fatal condition, and it
hid annoyed to it this condition, that he must use it, and he
doubted whether he had such an amount of strength as to
be able to resist the inilaence which urged him towards this
annexation. At all events, he would no longer have it is
his power to proceed by stealth. All Europe would see that
this net if it were done would be in open violation of trea-
ties, and then they would, he thought, understand and per-
ceive that the right of nations wets made to depend in this
etipt:atetihoh,ne. n
He
d not upon justice, but upon strength.
Sir R. PEEL said he had great pleasure in seconding the
ra
felt
not
refrain,so de
be
f 1 deeply the
enteringhe por t importance
uponce of a
thisfews übje ct
obser-
vations which he might have to offer, from tendering his
thanks to his hon. friend for the clear and lucid manner in
which he had submitted his statement. The house would
be glad of this opportunity being afforded to the Govern
ment to offer some observations upon this great and impor-

tant subject. (Hear, bear.) The question affected not only
the whole of the Italian nation, but it affected the whole
of Europe. It was one which not only affected the terri-
toial limits and geographical frontiers of France ; it not
only affected Switzerland as regarded three of her pro-
vinces; but it affected the whole comity of nations; and in
this way, that it attempted to make an inroad into the char-
ter of European tenure, which was the basis of the existence
of territorial arrangements. That was an attempt which
must be checked at once with a vigorous hand, or must be
sanctioned by the consent of the great European powers, or
it might lead to convulsions very shortly. (Hear.) This
motion was not made in a spirit of hostility against the Go-
vernment of her Majesty. No hon. member would think
that. He believed the present Government had followed
:he policy of its predecessors during very troublesome and
hazardous times, and they had been anxious to maintain
friendly relations with all the powers of Europe, and that was
a policy which all must desire to maintain. (Hear, hear.)
That being the case, he could not but recollect what that
venerated statesman (Lord Aberdeen), he might almost say
of a bygone generation, had once said, viz., that the foreign
policy of every Government had been more or less identical
with the policy of its predecessors for the last thirty years.
He (Sir R. Peel) believed the Government had followed out
the policy of its sredecessors. They knew that was the
policy of Lord Malmesbury, and that noble lord had de-
clared that his exertions and those of the Government to
which he belonged were instrumental in confining the strug-
gle of last year between Austria on the one side and France
and Sardinia on the other to the Italian states. (Hear,
hear.) Ho (Sir R. Peel) believed there were many persons
who thought that the Government of her Majesty had been
desirous to abstain from involving this country in the dis-
putes of our allies and, our friends. But then how came
it, after having resolved upon following that course, that
he found on the 4th Februrky this communication from
Lord Cowley to M. Thouvenel proposing a scheme for the
settlement of the affairs of Italy, and to the effect that
Venetia should remain under the rule of Austria, that the
inhabitants of Central Italy should be allowed a year to vote
the question of annexation to Sardinia, that France should
allow them to accomplish their wishes, and lastly, that
France should withdraw her troops from Rome. (Hear.
hear.) He (Sir Robert Peel) believed that France answered
that she was not able at that moment to send a reply, -and
they now heard that the other foreign governments could
not accede to the English propositions without reservation.
But were her Majesty's Government leaving that indepen-
dent action which the Government of this country had pre-
viously followed ? (Hear, hear.) What had we to do with.
asking France to allow Tuscany to become united to Sar-
dinia ? (Hear, hear.) France replied, " Yes, but France
will then take Savoy." His hon. friend had said that this
question of Savoy was long previous to this. It might be
so. But it was patent to everybody that when the Govern-
ment proposed to annex Tuscany to Sardinia, France re-
plied, "With the annexation of Savoy to France." He
believed the Government had been desirous of giving some
prsctical effect to their adininistration ; and he approved
greatly of the exertions they had recently made with a view
of increasing and improving the commercial relations with
France and other countries of the world. But he believed
that on the very day the Government approved of the treaty
of commerce the Emperor put forward his scheme of the
annexation of Savoy. Now that looked very much as if the
commercial treaty had some important political tendencies.
(Hear, hear.) They had heard a great deal lately of the
conciliatory spirit of the Emperor, and no one more than
himself desired friendly relations Rath France, but he must
say he had heard a great deal, not only of the conciliatory
spirit of France, but of other things, and of course France
had her own interests to consult, and not those of any
other country. (Hear, hear.) Then how eame it that
there had arisen at this time this apparent civility on the
part of France—(hear, hear)—and was it the desire on the
part of the Emperor to clear away those libellous charges
which had been so plentifully heaped upon him, or was it
the desire of her Majesty's Government to open fresh chan-
nels of communication with this country, or was this treaty
merely a medium of according a sop to France to enable her
to carry on, with undiminished vigour, her schemes of am-
bition and power ? He hoped the house would boldly say,
and that the Government would avail themselves of the
opportunity, that this commercial treaty had no reference
whatever to the political condition of Italy, and that it did
not bind this country to the future policy of France. (Hear,
hear.) He had lately read the voluminous blue-book con-
. tainine•' despatches on the state of Italy, and he hoped he
might say that he thought they reflected upon the noble
lord the Foreign Secretary the greatest credit; and they
showed that he had conducted the affairs of the foreign de-
partment with a dignity worthy of the Government and the
country. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord must recollect that
with regard to the friendly assurances of France, his hon.
friend had expressed great doubts on that point, end they
had one notable instance of her sincerity. (Hear, hear.).He
would mention one great proof of it, and that was this that
at the time when France united with America in her strug-
gle against England she never made more strenuous pro-
fessions of her friendly relations with this country. (Hear,
hear.) And at this time, when she made much of her
friendly relations with England, she talked about correct-
ing her geographical frontier. (Hear, hear.) That was a
great and importent matter, but who was to decide it ex-
cept the great Powers who hai put their seals upon the in-
strument which had existed since the last century ? The
Government of France expressed the will end feelings ofthe
Emperor ; and when they found an article in La Patric—
which for its impertinence could not be exceeded—in favour
of the annexation of Savoy, they must remember that no less
than 19 newspapers in France had been suppressed for
making assertions not in accordance with the wishes
of the Government. He believed the people of Savoy were
not desirous to be united to France. The hon. member then
referred to the pacte de famille and the proclamation of the
Emperor when he entered Milan in June, 1859, and said
that he had no personal ambition to grat;fy in the acquisi-
tion of territory to France, and the hon. gentleman added
that every one would be inclined to believe what the Eth-
peror then said if the pacte de fan "e was not in existence.
But the Government should watch events narrowly, for
these pactes de famille were generally framed against the
liberties of the people whom they most concerned. A pact
was signed in 1761, and in later days there was a similar
one between Napoleon and his brothers. These family pacts
prohibited all interference from other Powers, and if there
were such a tone in existence it would require the greatest
care and watchfulness from her Majesty's Government.
But whence.had sprint this question of the annexation of
Savoy ? It had arisen from the struggle which made Pied-
mont a great Italian power. Piedmont got a large accession
of territory, and in consequence Savoy was threatened, and
Switzerland was in danger of losing her ancient neutrality.
The neutrality of Switzerland was guaranteed by eight
Powers in 1815, when Prince Metternich himself declared
that her neutrality was indispensable to her independence,
and that could not be securea without the military frontier
afforded by Chablais and Fancigny. By this treaty it was
laid down that in case of war this territory, which abutted
on the Lake of Geneva, should be occupied by Swiss
troops. The very existence of the Helvetic Confederation
was bound up in the neutrality of these provinces, and the
moment that France took possession of them that indepen-
dence was at an end. There were 10,000 Frenchmen resident
in Geneva, and it was said 10,000 Savoyards also. Sup-
posing Geneva to be surrounded by French territory, what
would be its position with this garrison of 60,000 enemies
within its walls ? (Hear, hear.) If this annexation were
permitted, the next claim put forward would be that of Efer-
many for the passes of St. Gothard, to balance the acquire-
ment of the Simplon by France. (Hear.) Should Germany
thus seize the passes of St. Gothard, he would leave the
house to; imagine the general complications that would arise.
(Hear, hear.) Perhaps if that were conceded they would
next have a demand from some quarter of the Rhenish pro-
vinces. He would entreat the Government and Parlia-
ment to oppose some check to such a state of things. Let
them remember that in 1792 France annexed Savoy, in 1798
she annexed Geneva, and in 1802 the cantons De Vana and
De Valais. All this territory resuained integral parts of the
republic and empire until 1814-15. The time was come
when they should endeavour to check those aggresive ten-
dencies of France, and, if possible, maintain the indepen
deuce of Savoy as guaranteed by the treaties of 1815. He
hoped that the house woud raise its voice against any
attempt to take away these provinces, which fairly belonged
to Sardinia. He admitted that his voice was but weak and
inefficient, but he had been asked to give expression to the
wishes of the Swiss people—(hear, hear)—and in the ab-
sence of a more powerful advoc .te he had done so. (Loud
cheers.) He had resided for some years in that country,
through the kindness of the noble lord the member for
Tiverton, and had had opportunities of knowing the senti-
ments of its leading statesmen, from one of whom he'had
received a letter dated on the day the signature of the
treaty was promulgated, and from that letter he would, with
the permission of the house, read one paragraph His
friend said :—" We have learned that a treaty has been
negotiated for the annexation of Savoy to France, and that
in it no exceptional mention has been made of the neutral
provinces which join Switzerland. Moreover, if we
are well informed, there are good reasons for appre-
hending that France intends repudiating the neu-
trality of these provinces, which was secured
by the treaty of 1815, and all previous trestles with the
House of Savoy. These treaties went even Carther than
guaranteeing the neutrality of the provinces, for Sardinia
engaged never to detach these provinces except for the pur-
pose of making them over to Switzerland, and we hoped
that such a reservation would have been made in the pre-
sent treaty. These two provinces contain 150,000 souls, who
in Vie event of any annexation of Savoy to France earnestly
desire that they may be incorporated with Switzerland."
(Hear, hear.) Besides this, the cry of the whole of the Swiss
press was for the maintenance of the status quo, and if that
were disturbed the incorporation of the neutral provinces.
These provinces still maintained their ancient attachment
to the House of Savoy, but if that house gave them up their
only desire was for incorporation with the Swiss Confede-
ration. A declaration to that effect, signed by 950 of the
principal inhabitants, had been circulated, and the feeling
which inspired it was deserving of the highest credit. That
address, in conclusion, said, " Dans le cas inattendu d'une
separation de la Savoie, le Faucigny et le Chablais ne von-
draient pas etre Francais, mais toleraient plutot .leur an-
nexion :1 la Suisse." Surely it would not promote the joy
of Italy at her own enfranchisement if it were thus pur-
chased at the expense of these small but brave and free
communities. (Cheers.) He appealed to her Majesty's
Government to bring their powerful influence to bear upon
the question, and he peceidsed them that the House of
Commons would support them in their efforts on the side of
independence and nationality. (Loud cheers.) He appealed
to them t act in accordance with the sentiments which had
been so often expressed by the noble lord the member for
Tiverton and the noble lord the member far London. He
trusted that they would carryon their negotiations not only
with conciliation but with power, for he believed that never
was power more wanted. Tho eyes of Europe were anxi- '
ously turned towards this country, to sco what policy :die
would pursue. Italy was bareting into freedom. As Byron
beautifully said—

'•ltaly I
which 'lath wing'd thee with ten thousand rents
Of thine imperial garment, shall deny,
And bath denied, to every other sky,
Spirits which soar from ruin. Thy decay
Is still impregnate sith divinity,
Which gilds it with revivifying ray."
And the revivifying rays of that freedom would cast its
bright illumination upon all the surrounding, countries. Ho
asked the noble lord not to quench that light, but to /mulish
and sustain it in undiminished vigour. (Cheers) He hoped
that they would not throw the weight of English influence
into the scale exclusivelywith Italian independence, but that
they would also endeavour to secure the independence of that
ancient republic, which had so long, amid the shock of em-
pires, stood the beacon light of constitutional liberty and
the home of political exiles. (Loud cheers) If her Majes-
ty's 'Ministers did not follow a straightforward policy inthis
matter they would not meet with the support of the House
of Commons, but if they could show that their policy, while
not officiously intermeddling with the affairs of other na-

tions, had brought the powerful influence of this country to
bear on the side of liberty and of justice, they would secure
not only the smpathy and gratitude of tens of thousands of
people in Italy and Switzerland, but they might count on
that best reward of any Government, the confidence and ap-
proval of every friend of civil and religious liberty. (Cheers.)

Sir G. GREY said he did not rise for the purpose of ex-
pressing on the part of the Government any dissent from the
opinions which had been expressed either by the mover or
seconder of the motion,, whose observations he believed were
in complete unison with the sentiments both of that house
and of the country. (Cheers.) The question which had been
raised was no doubt one of great European interest, and one
which justly commanded a great share of public attention
in this country; it was one which therefore might well en-
gage the attention of the House of Commons, and it was one
upon which her Majesty's Government was free to admit
they had a right to give the fullest and most complete in-
formation. (Hear.) To the motion, therefore, for the pro-
duction of all the correspondence, he was most ready to as-
sent, merely with the trifling addition of "or extracts" in
tha wording of the motion. (Cheers.) However, he could
not help thinking that a protracted discussion could be bet-
ter maintained after the house had been in possession of
these papers, which would show the position of the question
as regarded England, France, and Sardinia.
.The house
would then be able to judge fairly of the course which the
Government had adopted. His hon. friend had expressed a
hope that there might be an unanimous expre4sion of opin-
ion on this motion, and although there was no way by which
it could formally be recorded, he (Sir G. Grey) was sure
that no one who rose would offer any dissent to its general
purport. Every one in that house must, he was sure, join
in earnestly deprecating the annexation of Savoy—(loud
cheers)—not only in the interest of that country itself, but
in view of the complications which such annexation might
entail on Europe. (Hear, hear.) He could not but think
that his hon. friend who had seconded The motion would
have adopted a different tone in addressing the Government
had he read the papers which were about to be broduced.
Ho would not have called upon them for any disclaimer of
political views or subserviency to France in ratifying the
commercial treaty, or of the fact that the treaty had the
slightest connection whatever with the questions of Nice
and Savoy. That disclaimer he (Sir G. Grey) was prepared
to make in the fullest manner, and he could assure the
house that the commercial treaty had not the slightest rela-
tion to those matters. (Hear.) Their hands were perfectly
free, and they had expressed in clear and unambiguous terms
their opinion of the annexation of Nice and Savoy. (Cheers.)
One word as to the despatch of his noble friend near him,
which had been treated by his hon. friend as avoluntary pro-
posal for the settlement of the affairs of Europe. His hon.
friend said that they were departing from the neutrality of
England in pressing the annexation of Tuscany to Piedmont
and thus giving an excuse for the annexation of Savoy.
When the whole correspondence was on the table the house
would see that this charge was unfounded, and that his noble
friend had volunteered no plan of his own, but merely im-
pressed upon the French, and other Governments, that to
Italy herself should be left the settlement of her internal
affairs. (Cheers.) The whole object of the English Go-
vernment was, that the settlement of the affairs of Italy
should be left wholly to the people of that country. (Hear,
hear.) He believed the policy of the Government would be
found to have been in strict accordance with the feelings of
the house and the country, and he trusted the influence
which they had used in the matter would not be exerted in
vain. Ile would only further express ahope that the house
would not enter into a protracted debate on the present
I occasion.

Mr. DISRAELI—Sir, although this subject has been
brought before the consideration of the house in a speech of
singular ability by the hon. gentleman who introduced the
motion, I this 4, on the whole, it will be more convenient
that I should claim the privilege of refraining from giving
any opinion on the subject generally until the correspond-
ence has been laid upon the table. At the same time lam
not surprised the hon. member for Bridg eater (Mr. King-
lake) has made this motion ; because, although we find on
the • part of the Government an extreme willingness and
prompt readiness to afford the house all the information in
their power, and even an apparent desire to produce papers,
which certainly is a novel feature in her Majesty's Minis-
ters, I may be permitted to observe that if that feeling had
been displayed at an earlier period of the session it would
have been more satisfactory. It will be recollected that on
the 2d of this month I made an inquiry of the Government
with respest to these papers, when I received a very unsa-
tisfactory reply, and it was not until the chief Minister of
the Crown in the other House of Parliament had made an
admission which seemed afterwards to be regretted, that I
Was enablei to learn there certainly hai been communica•
tions between her Majesty's Government and the French
Government on the subject of Savoy. But they were so
far back as July last year, and the impression conveyed to
the house by the Government was, that the whole question
had died away; that it was not one of that
r-gent and pressing nature which it is now uni-
versally recognised to be, and the house was consequently
entirely thrown off its guard. Then came en inquiry
by an hon. member who bad become possessed of certain
information, and it was not until he had produced his in-
formation that we found the Government prepared to meet
the house with frankness. However may feel it due to
myself and ethers to press on an inquiry in this important
matter, I shall at present scrupulouslrefrain from enter-
ing into the merits of the question. When the papers are
in the possession of the house I am sure we shall all feel
that no more important documents could be placed in our
hands, and the time will come when we shall be able to
give the subject our grave deliberation. (Hear.)
Mr. M. MILNES agreed in the prudence of deferring
this discussion, but at the same time he wished to make one
observation. Me trusted, in the absence of all authentic
information, the house world not allow itself to be led away
by mere i amours, or to give implicit credit to assertions
which, although made in the best possible faith, could be
nothing but assertions.

Mr. BOWYEIt expressed a strong feeling as to the de-
gradation of the King of Sardinia if he parted with Savoy,
and taunted the Government with truckling to France be-
cause she was strong, while they treated with contempt such
weaker powers as Naples and Popedom.
Mr. IVarre, Mr. B. Cochrane, and Mr. Kinnaird having
spoken,

Lord J. RUSSELL said—l can assure the hon. gentle-
man that the papers will be produced as soon as possible.
They are now printing, and in one or two days from this
date I hope they will be laid before the house. The right
hon. gentleman opposite seems to think that I showed re-
luctance in giving information to the house.

Mr. DISRAELI=In refusing the papers—
Lord J. RD SSELL—The fact is that when a question
was asked on a previous occasion by the right hon. gentle-
man on this subject, I answered him according to the state
of factS as they existed at that time. But when the question
was raised in another place, I placed in the hands of my
n3ble friend tho President of the Council a despatch which
I had received that morning, in order that he might be in a
position to explain the circumstances that took place. I
could not give the right hon. gentleman the contents of a
despatch which had not been received. With regard to the
production of despatches the rule to be observed, I think, is
this : That when in correspondence with a foreign govern-
ment youhave stated the views of her Majesty's Govern-
ment, you should not produce that despatch till that foreign
'government has had time to receive it, and if they should
dank proper, to answer it. I wrote a despatch to Lurd Cow-
ley, to be by him laid before M. Thouvenel, who had a week
or more to reply to it. I have no objection to produce that
despatch, because if he thought it desirable he could have
given ananswer before that time. But it would be unfair
to a foreign government to present a despatch, complaining
perhaps, inquiring perhaps, with regard to the conduct of
that government, without giving time to that foreign go-
vernment to reply. (Hear, hear.) I listened with admira •
tion, as I am sure the whole house did, to the speeches of
my two hon. friends who moved and seconded this motion;
but at the same time, with regard to that family pact of
which they have spoken, I can only say that her Majesty's
Government have no diplomatic information of the fact. The
fact of such a treaty having been entered into previous to the
war has been, and up to the present time, repeatedly denied
by the governments of France and of Sardinia. (Hear,
hear.) That that matter has been, and is still, in agitation,
I cannot deny. The hon. baronet has said, and said truly,
that the powers of 'Europe had guaranteed Chablais and
Faucigny as neutral territory, and that if it passed into
the possession of France that neutrality would be affected.
If the question was confined to those parts of Savoy which
border on the Lake of Geneva, I think it would not be diffi-
cult to obtain from France a part of those places for Switzer-
land, but we did not look to that object, we looked to pre-
serve the whole of Savoy—(hear, hear)—and we have not
discussed that particular question to Ehich my hon. friend
alluded, and to which Switzerland naturally looks with the
greatest anxiety. Another matter to which the ho-
nourable baronet referred was the fourth point of
the proposition which her Majesty's Government made for
the settlement of the affairs of Italy. I beg of him to con-
sider what was the state of affairs immediately previous to
the proposal of a congress. The Austrian Government de-
clared that if a single Sardinian soldier went into Central
Italy, she, on the other hand, would march her army to
oppose that entry of the Sardinian troops. On the other
hand, the Emperor of the French declared to the Austrian
ambassador in Paris that the moment an Austrian soldier
marched across the Po the French troops would march to
oppose them. Conceive how critical this position was, and
how dangerous to the peace of Europe. (Hear.) The remedy
for this state of things was to be the congress. This ex-
tremely critical situation of affairs could net last much lon-
ger, because it was thought the congress was about to meet,
and would find a remedy for this disorder. But it was an-
nounced by France in consequence of a communication from'
Austria that the conference was indefinitely postponed. At
the same time none of these declarations were withdrawn--
there was the same danger of collision. 'Was it not natural then
fora Governmentanxious for peace to make aproposition with
a view to preserve that peace, and to prevent the calamity of
war from occurring? Accordingly her Majesty's Government
made propositions with this riew. The first was, that neither
Austria nor Franca should interfere in the affairs of Italy
without the general assent of Europe. We did not get the
assent of Austria to that proposition. We did, howeVer,.ob-
tails a declaration both at Vienna and at London that
Austria meant not to interfere beyond her own frontier;
although she would not give up any of her own rights nor
those treaties which bound her to maintain the rights of
certiiii sivereigns, vet that it was not her intention to at-
tempt by force of arms to maintain those treaties. This was
of i►e•eif a great gain and security for the peace of Europe.
(Hear, hear.) Then her Majesty's Government went fur-
ther in the fourth proposition, which says that if the pro-
vinces of Central Italy were determined upon governing
themselves, or it' they chose to annex to Sardinia, we would
object to any force bein4used to subvert such government,
and in the other case would not object to Sardinia taking
formal possession. This is in conformity with what we de-
clared to be our pelicy from June to January that the Italian
people should themselves decide as to the form of govern-
ment they w!shed Pr themselves. The hon. member for
Dundalk had been able to speak his mind. (Laughter.) It
must have been painful to him, with the whole responsi-
bility of the sentiments of Pope and cardinals resting' on
him, not to be able to express them before. (Laughter.) We
have now heard those opinions expressed, and what the hon.

( gentleman, has to say of certain manifestations which took
J place. To be sure there are manifestations that are not of
much value—manifestations that are caused by bad govern-
ment, and that are apt to be symptoms of revolution. The
hon. gentleman might have heard of a great manifestation on
Hounslow Heath. The adviser of the sovereign of that day
was asked by the King what that meant ? He (the adviser)
somewhat like the hon. gentleman himself, said, " Nothing;
it is only the soldiers shouting for the acquittal of the seven
bishops." The King knew what that manifestation meant,
and saw the danger which threatened his throne on that
occasion. It was dangerous for sovereigns to rely on such
advisers as the hon. gentleman. Was discontent to be ap-
peased—was revolution to be prevented by saying that you
would never reform a bad system of Government ? We have
heard of princes who, like the Grand Duke of Tuscany,
violated the fundamental compact by which they sat on the
throne by withdrawing from the country, and the results,
both in this country and in Tuscany, were very similar.
(Hear, hear.) With regard to this immediate question I
cannot but think that although in some violent newspapers
a great deal of excited opinion has been manifested in favour
of the annexation of Savoy to France, that is a course which
the Emperor in his wisdom NA :11 long hesitate before he
adopts. (Hear, hear.) I c aunt but see what every man
may see, that it would product; distrust for two reasons.
One reason is that such a policy would be in contradiction
with that proclamation—that magnificent proclamation I
must say at the risk even of being accused of flattering the
Emperor—which he issued. (Hear.) There is another reason
why such a course would create distrust. Former encroach-
ments of France originated in small beginnings only on one
side of a country, and yet afterwards they were the precur-
sors of conquests and the disturbers of Europe. (Hear.) I
am afraid if Savoy were annexed, even though a meeting
at Charnbery was held in its favour, and even though the
powers of Europe gave their reluctant assent, it would be
the precursor of a long period of distrust and apprehension.
I believe, finally, it would not Lend to the strength of
France itself. (Hear, hear.) A country like France, in-
habited by a race so warlike, and at the same time possess-
ing in itself such resources, with such wealth and union,
does not depend for its security, its independence, or even
its power, on the question whether the frontier is advanced
nearer to the Alps or the Rhine, but on its own resources,
the spirit of. its people, that unconquerable spirit of inde-
pendence which rules amongst its people, those warlike
qualities which have been displayed at all times, but which
never more than in the last war have excited the admiration
of the world. (Hear, hear.) Such is the security of France.
We know what has happened to France in our own day.
In 1792, before she acquired Savoy—when her people were
in a state of disorder and apparent anarchy—she was at-
tacked by a formidable league, which extended from Turin
on the one side to Berlin on the other. She was, however,
able, by her own innate strength, and by the careful mili-
tary disposition of her forces, to rel,el those invaders and
to conquer the very territories from which she had been
invaded. (Hear.) The tide of conquest rolled on, until at
length her frontier extended from Hamburg in the north to
Rome in the south. Was she then more secure ? On the
contrary; three years after these frontiers had been so ex-
tended her enemies entered the capital of the empire.
_(Wear.) Therefore I say it is not the right or the secure
policy of Franco to attempt to extend her frontier. Her
present ruler, without attaining to those brilliant conquests
of his • uncle, had perhaps more sagacity and prudence.
(Hear, hear.) I have watched that character, and I cannot
believe that—seeing the distrust likely to be created—see-
ing the apprehensions and feeling of hostility which might
arise in Europe by the pursuance of such a prospect—l
cannot but hope that it will be abandoned in deference to
the general sense of Europe. (Cheers.)
The motion was then agreed to.
THE SERPENTINE.'

Mr. CO WPER obtainel leave to nominate a select com-
mittee to inquire into the best means of cleansing the Ser-
pentine.
Mr. DISRAELI asked, before the house went into com-
mittee on the Customs Acts, if the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer would explain, according to custom, an additional
article in the commercial treaty with France, which had
been added by the Government.
MINES REGULATION AND INSPECTION BILL.
This bill was read a second time.
MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS MORTGAGES
BILL.
This bill passed through committee pro forma.
CUSTOMS' ACTS (WINE DUTIES) REPORT.
Mr. MASSEY brought up the report on the Customs'
Acts agreed to on the previous evening relative to the wine
duties, which was agreed to.
CUSTOMS' ACTS.—PROGRESS.
The house having gone into committee on the Customs
Acts, Mr. MASSEY in the chair,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
wished in the first instance to make an explanation respect-
ing the additional article of the treaty, as was very properly
asked by the right hon. gentleman the member for Buck-
inghamshire. The object of that article was very simple, and
was fully explained in the article itself. It proceeded upon
the principle that where a commodity would be liable to
excise duty in England, the same article if imported from
abroad shall be liable to a customs duty equal to the excise
duty of it was produced at home; it would be likewise liable
for any money charges according to the excise regulations.
Upon a strict investigation it appeared that the differential
duty of 2d. between colonial and home made spirits, the
allowance by way of compensation to the British distiller,
did not amount to a full compensation. On that account it
became necessary to make some regulation to put the
British distillers upon an equality at nearly as they could
with the distillers abroad, more especially as they would
now be subject to a general and sharp competition with
other countries. Her Majesty's Government having made
this fact known 'co the Government of France, they were
met in a spirit of the greatest liberality. The change made
in the scale of duties upon spirits he should explain more
particuiarly when they came to vote upon that article. He
would now move resolution No. 4in the printed paper,
which referred to the application of customs duties upon
certain articles therein stated.
Mr. NEWDEGATE wished to be informed whether this
article of the treaty was applicable to the produce of France
only, or the produce of the whole world. He could not see
the necessity for a trehty at all. This treaty bound us under
an obligatiod to France to admit the produce of the whole
world, which was a manifest absurdity. The French Go-
ve.mment would be iu a position to say to the Zollverlen, to
Spain, Austria, and Portugal, if Parliament consented to
this treaty—to say to them, England was bound by treaty
obligations to France, and therefore they need not trouble
themselves if they were to exclude euery article of British
manufacture from their ports.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
hon. member had raised a question as to the construction of
the treaty, and had given an opinion that by the first words
of the sth article the Queen contracted an engagement with
France to abolish duties on certain articles, not only im-
ported from that country but from all parts of the world;
so that if goods came from Japan we should be bound to
admit them on the same terms. It was true the words of
the sth article were general, and did not say expressly,
!‘ being the produce of the empire of France." If the treaty
in express words stated this, we should admit those articles
irrespective of their origin, and then articles from Japan
would come under the same head. But the words were
general, and did not contain any express covenant as to any
particular country. This was the view the Government
_took, and wero advised to take, of this article ; but of course
it,was open to the hon. member, if he
,thought fit, to raise a
question upon it.
Mr. NE WDEGATE reiterated his objection to the
articles of the treaty as they stood, and expressed a hope
that the Attorney-General would assist the committee with
the weight of his authority, as he could assure them the
opinions he expressed had been entertained by a high
legal authority.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL referred generally to
the provisions of the Ist, sth, and 11th articles of the treaty,
as well as to the general construction to be put upon the
treaty itself. This was a contract between two nations'.
France did not contract on behalf of all the nations of Eu-
rope, neither did Great Britain bind any ether nation in
Europe, but France alone. It would be a great absurdity for
France to contract on behalf of the great Powers of Europe,
or for Great Britain to contract with France, without any
engagement with them to do so. The result was that the
treaty as a contract could not bind any other power in
Europe ; its obligations rested with them alone. The treaty
was between two parties—they were the domini—they
could alone release, alt. r, or discharge, that contract. The
motive for or key of the treaty was plainly enough de-
scribed in the preamble, in which the motive which
animated the two high contracting parties was declared to
be to promote the mutual interests of the two countries and
draw closer the ties of friendship between them.
Mr: BLACKBURN wished to ,know whether a deputa-
tion had not arrived in London from Manchester for the
purpose of pointing out that the duty on Manchester goods
imported into France would be 45 per cent., instead of 30
per cent., as provided by the treaty.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
no such deputation had been to him, nor did he know any-
thing of the matter. The rates of duties would be fixed by
both Governments, and not by one only.
Mr. TURNER said the prosperity of Manchester had
been great for some time past, but not to the exaggerated
extent stated by the hon. gentleman. He thought the esti-
mate of value calculated on the prices of the last six months
would be erroneous for the purpose of fixing the duties.
Mr. BLACKBURN said it appeared he was not so very
wrong after all in describing the prosperity of Manchester,
even if it had not been so great as he had stated. If it were
true, however, that the prosperity of Manchester had been
so very recent as the hon. member described, the Manchester
manufacturers would gain no advantage at all, for the me-
dium price during the last six months was to be taken as the
ad valorem duty.
Mr. HALIBURTON asked whether it was to be under-
stood that goods direct fermi Algeria were to be admitted
into England, whilst goods from the British colonies were
not to have the same privilege of admission into France ?
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that whereas we
stipulated for the productions of the United Kingdom
generally, France stipulated for those of France, and also,
by a separate article, for those of Algeria also. To that
extent Algeria was a favoured colony.
Lord J. MANNERS inquired why it was that Algeria_
was favoured by France, whereas no mention was made of
the British colonies ?

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER explained
that France was in a condition with respect to Algeria very
different from that in which we were t)wards our colonies.
England could not deal with her colonies as France could
deal with Algeria. Canada had been raising her duties
lately upon imported goods, which had been considered by
some persons a kind of protective measure against British
manufactures. But the exclusion of the British colonies
was a proof of the political liberty which they enjoyed.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr, HALIBURTON said he understood then that the
house had no power to grant privileges to a colony. (Mur •
niurs.) The privileges of a colony were not to be considered,
because they could not deal with a colony. (Murmurs of
dissent.)
Mr. BL ACK BURN asked whether, if goods were shipped
froinreylon to Britain, and thence to France, they would
conic under the same regulations as the produce of England
itself?
•• The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
must answer that question with sonic hesitation and reserve,
as the question was not. approached by the treaty.
Mr. )3 LACKBURN said that admis,zion proved that the
words in Article I. respecting "British manufactures im.
ported from the United Kingdom into France" did.not re-
late to the British colonies. (Hear.)
Mr. DANBY SEYNIOUR observed if that were so then
there would be need of a supplementary treaty.
The following articles, to be made free of duty (wider the
trea°y), were then agreed to—agates or camelians, &c.
Upon the a tide of apples,
Mr. BENTINCK rose (amidst somehughter) and said he
thought the inexplicable Gordian knot of this treaty would
have to be unravelled some day or other with the sword. He
thought the question of apples was one of considerable im-
portance. (A laugh.) It seemed to him that free tralers
whether of the old original school, as the hon. member for
Birmingham, or the Chauoellor of the Exchequer, his
grett
recommended
uoodnus gen-
tlemen le
con-
vert, of late yours ignored altogether the existence of the
aruprpalshi
districts, of this country. He
was
no
himself—(laughter)-but hter) —but he
who represented the rural difitricts, or rather UN