The Sun.
London, England, 1860-08-14 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, AUGUSr 14, 1860.

Mr. Wilson had arrived in India he proceeded to meet Lord
Canning, going as far as Lahore,' thus communicating With
all the principal functionaries along the whole of the line.
He then came down to Calcutta, and brought in bills to pro-
vide for the revenue, half by licenses, half by income tax ;
and with the entire approbation of the Goverhor-General,
and the fullest consent of all parties in India, the bills were
put into the shape in which they now were. He (Sir C.
Wood) believed no other course was open; and a very re-
markable circumstance connected with these papers was
that Sir B. Frere gave it as his opinion that additional taxa-
tion was not necessary, as by a reduction of expenditure such
..a course might be avoided. If gentlemen would refer to one
o f the minutes in these papers they would see that in the
lli tadras presidency, out of about 1,500,000 landholders there
ve ere only 800 who paid the taxes to which they were as-
seosed. He (Sir C. Wood) did not know if hon. members
hael. seen a letter addressed to Mr. Wilson by the Mahara-
jah of Burdwan, assuring him that he felt very sensibly the
value of the protection of the English Government to life
and property, and expressing his opinion that the land-
holders aught readily to pay their taxes in consideration of
that protection, which he thought was highly creditable to
the Maharajah. With regard to the tobacco tax, it was to
be levied, not on the land on which it was grown, but on
the persons' selling it. Looking, then, at all the circum-
stances of th e case, and believing there was no other alter-
native than t hat, unless they were prepared to raise addi-
tional taxes, t hey must go on in a ruinous system of bor-
rowing, he wa..ef opinion they should give their best sup-
port to the Government of India, who were, after all, the
persons respon.ale, and the best judges of whit was want-
ing and what was not wanting; and he (Sir C. Wood) was
strongly of opinion that the less we inter:ered with the Go-
vernment of India the better and safer it would be, and the
better we should be prepared to give them our most cordial
support. By the last despeches he received from India he
found that the Government there did not conceive that any
very large sum would be raised by this new taxation, not
much more than £1,000,000, and that next year it would
produce about £3,500,000. The pure military expenses
would be £17,000,000, and the police expenses nearly
£2,000,000. On the whole, he thought we had a very rea-
sonable prospect that at the end of the year 1861.62 we
might bring the income and expenditure to a level, and in
the course of three or four years ho hoped the ordinary in.
come might be equal to the ordinary expenditure. .(Hear.)
He might further state that the prices of produce were
rising in all parts of India, and so were the wages of la-
bour;, and in Madras there was full employment for every
one. (Hear, hear.) Therefore, he might fairly say, " Give
us time, and if peace is preserved in India, there is every
prospect of India becoming prosperous." But the more im-
mediate question was how to provide for the year 1861-62.
He answered, that he proposed to do so by drawing on the
balances in the Treasury, which this year were extraordi-
narily high. They borrowed last year sooner than they in-
tended, and a loan of £5,000,000 was raised. At first the
loan was not very successful, and only a small amount of it
was subscribed when he addressed the house in Aug. last.
It was then considered that the estimated probable portion
of that loan raised in India would be only £1,700,000, but
the very next mail which came from India stated it was
estimated at £1,800,000, showing that there was only a dif-
ference of £lOO,OOO between his (Sir C. Wood's) esrmate
and that of the Indian Government. It might be asked
why then he was going to borrow now a sum of £3,000,000.
His answer was that he wanted that sum to meet the con-
tingencies of the proprietors of railways in India, amount-
ing to £7,000,000—0f that sum about £1,500,000 would be
disbursed in India. Therefore he was obliged to ask for
this loan of £3,000,000, lest the portion which should be
raised in India would fail, though he hoped the whole sum
would be raised by the railway companies. But in one way
or other, either from the money market of this country or
from some other source, those £7,000,000 must be raised the
first year for the railroads in India. (Hear.) With respect
to the customs duties, some had been rased and others
lowered—altogether the whole had been equalised. Upon
' this subject, however, we had not very much complaint. A
commission had been appointed to investigate the subject,
in which the Chambers of Commerce in Madras and Bom-
bay were represented. It would meet in Calcutta, and the
result of its labours he trusted would be that the new duties
would press fairly on all classes. Various other measures
had been token to consolidate and arrange financial matters,
and regulate the balances in the numerous treasuries, and
he hoped by the end of the year to have 1,200 or 1,300 miles
open. All the anticipated objections of the natives to the
railroads have proved to be without foundation, end there
was no doubt they would be extremely profitable, though
some of the works were very heavy, and a very large ex-
penditure was necessary; for completing them. Full particu-
lars respecting the progress of the railways would be found
in an able report which had recently been laid on the table
by an officer in the Indian service. The sum of £52,000,000
would be required to complete the lines, of which 136,500,000
had been authorised, and £29,500,000 had been paid up—
£25,250,000 by shares, and £4,250,000 by debentures. None
of the lines had been opened as yet between clear termini,
notwithstanding which the traffic had been very favourable,
and there was every reason to believe that when the lines
were fully opened between the principal termini the traffic
returns would exceed all expectations which had been
hitherto entertained. The electric telegraph had been
opened to the extent of 11,500 miles, but he must confess
that with respect to the submarine portion of it he was not
very sanguine, although they had once received a message
in six days from Calcutta. They were preparing to carry
on the telegraph from Singapore to Calcutta, which would
materially shorten the distance. With respect to public
works, they had been very much at a stand still, officers
having been required for the purpose either of military
duties or to superintend the erection of military works.
That necessity, however, had now passed, and they would
be able to devote their attention again to the public works
which were of the greatest possible value to the country.
They were going on rapidly in the Punjaub—the road to
Peshawire was in progress, and also a tunnel beneath the
Indus. A shaft had already been sunk forty feet below the
level of the river, and the tunnel when completed would be
a most valuable work. Works of irrigation were progress-
ing throughout the country, and an expenditure had been
authorised which would open out 70 canals through the
province of Scinde, and they were being carried out as fast
as the state of the labour market would permit. Improve-
ments were also being effected in the harbour of Kurrachee,
and in Bengal roads were being made, principally with a
view to open up commuaications with railroad stations.
Negotiations were going on with the Madras Irrigation
Company, and he had been in communication with the Go-
vernor-General as to the terms upon which the proposed
works were to be proceeded with. The Government had
been asked to take particular steps in reference to the God-
every Irrigation Improvements, but the steps they were
called upon to take would involve the rights to the banks of
the river, which the Goveiament had no power to concede,
inasmuch as they were bound to respect the rights of the
native princes. Consequently, nothing c )uld be done in
that direction until they had obtained the consent of the
native princes, but he did not anticipate any difficulty in the
matter. Many improvements had been authorised for the
accommodation of the cotton trade, the object being to
provide a convenient port on the coast for that trade.
,They had
,also ruthorised the construction of docks at
Bombay, and they had been in communication with
the Indian Government on the question. Before proceed-
ing. further, he felt bound to pay a tribute to the con-
duct of Lord Canning, who had used great exertions
to remove the prejudices of the natives, and who had been
invariably animated by the most benevolent motives,
though somehow or other his efforts had not aiways been
attended with success. Of late years the system of go-
vernment which had been established in the North-
Western Provinces had been most successful, but unfortu-
nately the attempt to carry out a similar system in Oude
had not been so successful as might have been desired, and
had resulted in the destruction of all the, old landlords. It
was fancied that a great benefit would be conferred upon
the ryots by the suppression of the Talookdars, but the
people rose up and, turning out the legal owners, reinstated
' the hereditary landlords, show ing- that they preferred the
old system, although the Talookdars had exercised their
powers with the greatest injustice. The mistake which had
been made had been in attempting to introduce all at ones a
system foreign to the habits of the people. Curiously enough,
what had been called the confiscation by Lord Canning of
the property of the Talookdars had in reality amounted to
the reinvestment of the land in the Talookdars. The Ta •
lookdars, however, had evinced a disposition to discharge
the new duties which devolved upon them with justice
and impartiality. A similar course would be adopted in
reference to the Punjab and the Sirdars, and he trusted
that it would be attended with beneficial results. In
northern India what was termed the system of adoption had
been recognised, and the announcement of the intentions of
the government had produced a most favourable impression
on the minds of the native princes. He believed that the
policy which had been adopted, together with the introduc-
tion of English capital, would ultimately produce prosperity
in India, and contribute to the happiness of the vast popu-
lations under her Majesty's dominion in that empire.
Mr. 11. SEYMOUR said he never heard a more unsatis-
factory statement, or he would say a more unfair speech.
The right hon. gentleman stated the deficit at £7,000,000,
and said that was the lowest point to which the Goerern-
ment of India could reduce it. But Mr. Wilson said that
that deficit might be reduced now to £5,700,000. He quoted
a passage from Mr. Wilson to this effect. But Mr. IA ilson
did not get down to this point till hardly pressed by Sir C.
Trevelyan. He quoted the opinions of Sir C. Trevelyan,
who stated that in Bombay and Madras the military ex-
penditure might be still further greatly reduced. The right
hon. gentleman stated that there was rather an increase
than a decrease in the military expenditure in the minor
presidencies within the last year; but according to the au-
thority, of Lord Elphinstone and Sir C. Trevelyan, the ex-
penditure ought not to be greater than before the year of
the mutiny ; and Sir C. Trevelyau added that the increased
expenditure in the Madras presidency was attributable to
the sluggish delays in decisions and operations of the Conn-
ell. The formation of police was of great importance; but
to that there were also great delays, and while it was on
the one hand said that such a force would increase the ex-
penditure to two millions and a half, it was on the other
shown that the expenditure for such a force would not
exceed £140,000 a-year, and that statement was eupported
by the authority of the chief of police, who was engaged in
forming and organising the force. But while the larger

estimate was submitted to them they would have but one
policeman to every 1,000 of the population, and those were
some of the reasons why the right hon. gentleman had not
kept down the expenditure. Sir Charles Trevelyan said,
on the other band, that having made India his study for
the greater part of his life, he was confident that the ex-
penditure might bo reduced to £11,500,000, being the ex-
penditure of the year before the mutiny. Now, all the
expenditure was not for the actual and active military force
in India—on the contrary, more than one-half of it was for
the commissariat and other auxiliary military departments.
Sir Charles Trevelyan very justly said that not only had
Mr. Wilson over-stated the expense of the army, but he
had under-stated the estimates. The land revenue and the
salt tax were decreasing. He was of opinion that, with
proper management and government, the magnificent pro-
perty of the Ganges alone would yield a greater return than
the whole of British India had yielded in the course of the
100 years that it had been subjected to British rule. He
could not find that Mr. Wilson, in his estimates, had ever
taken into account any reduction at all in the army. But
Sir Patrick Grant had shown that several regiments of in-
fantry, and some of cavalry, and of other branches of the
service, might be safely disbanded, were it not for the ap-
prehension thgt a rising of the population might take place,
as a consequence of the infliction of new taxation. (Hear.)
They were, however, told that a sum of £1,500,000 was to
be expended on the erection of new barracks, and that an-
other sum of £1,500,000 was to be expended in the con- ,
struction of forts, so that they were to have within less
than two years an additional sum of taxation amounting
to no less than £3,000,000 for barracks and forts. Now he
had a friend, M. de Brialmont, who wrote the best life of
the Duke .of Wellington, and that distinguished author
was at present engaged in writing a book to show how
India could be governed by a very small number of troops.
He was therefore apprehensive that Mr. Wilson, in his
estimates, was wasting money, and he should like to know
from him whether he was taking the proposed money for
the whole expenditure to be incurred, or whether he
meant that application should be made hereafter to this
country for a much larger sum of money. And while this
increased expenditure was proposed, he found that
the civil works in India had been stopped—those works
which Sir Charles Trevelyan spoke so highly of, likening
them to a California, from which a rich mine of gold might
be reaped—works from which there was a return of from 40
to 60 per cent. He (Mr. H. Seymour) maintained, then,
thdt it was madness in the Government to stop the progress
of public works iu India. But after stopping the publie
works—works from which, according to Sir Charles Tre-
velyan, they might " reap fields of gold," why should they
burden the people with increased taxation ? (Hear, hear.)
He could not but regret that the suggestions of Lord Dal-
housie on that part of the resources of India had not been
carried out. With respect to the formation and results of
railways in India, he expected that a very large sum must
ultimately be derived. The right hon. gentleman had,
amongst other things, spoken of currency, and on that part
of the subject he (Mr. H. Seymour) begged to remark that,
in Russia, the Government of that empire paid the troops
in paper currency in the most distant parts of the vastly ex-
tended territory. He (Mr. H. Seymour) in speaking on
that part of the question, begged to say that he was of
opinion that railways must pay in India, and he should like
to see them carried out there in the most extended way,
even to Cape Coi alorin. It was throwing money away to
make a turnpike road when a railway could bo constructed.
As to the mutiny, that was caused by bad government, and
£50,000,000 was spent in suppressing that which night have
been prevented by ordinary foresight. Rack-rents and op-
pression of the ryots had wrought much mischief in India.
The noble lord the member for King's Lynn had done much
to benefit India. He ordered the fee simple of the land to
be sold in certain cases, and Sir C. Trevelyan had done
much to carry out the prudent resolves of the noble lord
(Stanley), and had their `sews been carried out the most
satisfactory results would have ensued. Last year the
military expenditure was nearly three-fourths of the whole
revenue of India. It was absolutely necessary that that
expenditure should be reduced. Then there was £123,000
voted for ecclesiastical expenditure, independently of what
was paid to chaplains. The Dissenters had done much,
and without any expense to the State, for the promotion of
Christianity in India; and he thought that no funds what-
ever should be voted for any such purpose. He thought
the religious movement should be carried out wholly on the
voluntary principle, and that no religious State establish-
ment should be paid for India. The ministers of the
Established Church were a kind of cis il service officers,
and also a sort of aristocracy ; and, without meaning any-
thing disparaging to them, he did not think they were so
active or so useful as the Dissenting missionaries. In
looking at the accounts he found that Bengal and the
north-western provinces showed a surplus, while Bombay
and Madras showed a deficit. He should like to see such
a statement of accounts as would enable the house exactly
to know the state of the finances of these respective places.
He believed that the affairs of India would never be satis-
factorily conducted so long as the right hon. gentleman
persisted in the course which he had pursued since hit; ap-
pointment to the Indian Secretaryship. He did not think
that the right hon. gentleman had displayed the same
energy as the noble lord the member for King's Lynn in
enforcing and carrying out a reduction of expenditure. He
contended that the Government was not justified in recall.
ing Sir C. Trevelyan.
Mr. E WART thought the Government could not do
otherwise than recal Sir C. Trevelyan, and said he trusted
that when the police were efficient in India they would be
able to reduce the military expenditure of that cot. utiy.

Mr. GREGSON said he was favourable to the mode by
which the right hon. gentleman (Sir C. Wood) propased to
raise the money to be provided for India. He trusted that
they would be able to reduce the military expenditure of
that count_,.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY was glad to find that the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer had not asked for bohlowing powers
larger than would give him the means of raising £3,000,000.
But he must take that opportunity of expressing his appre-
hensions in reference to the financial state of India. When
Mr. Wilson went to India he found that there was a deficit
of £3,100,000 arising out of various items left out of the
accounts. Considering that the expenditure of India for
the last three years was on an average £50,000,000 a-year,
he looked with great fear as to the result of the experiment
about to be made in relation to an Income tax in that country.
Mr. ROEBUCK called attention to the case of those who
had sustained losses by the revolt in India. The law in
England was that in such cases compensation for damages
was made by the hundred, wbich in India was represented
by the Gavel.ement of course. Ho complained that the
right hon. gentlemen had one day promised compensation
for losses of moveable and immoveable property, giving in
the one case half, and in the other one-third of the value of
the property so lost, to the extent cf £1,000,000, whereas, a
day or two afterwards, he sent a despatch to India, in which
he said the Government had decided to give compensation
to the extent of one-half on losses not exceeding 2,000r5.,
and where the losses were over that amount that I,ooors.
would be awarded, and one-third of the sum by which the
loss should exceed 2,000r5. With regard to cash, jewels,
&c., the right hon. gentleman, in the same despatch, said
Govetament had decided to pay in no case compensation
exceeding 5,000r5. Now, the right hon. gentleman had said
India would not prosper till they get for it the advantage
of English capital; but they would not get English capital
whilst, by such conduct as this, they fostered a feeling of
insecurity. Instead of having the advantage of English
capital, they would starve the country for want of it if they
pursued such fantastic courses. Next he came to the case of
the insurance companies. The Government had induced
the civilians to enter into mi,ittuy seta :ce during the mu-
tiny, and this had been fatal to the lives of many. The in-
surance companies had honourably paid the claims under
the policies on these lives, and called upon the Government
to reimburse them for the payments so made. This the
Government refused to do, but he warned them that they
had not heard the last of this subject. It would come up
again next session with re loubled force, and he pressed
upon her Majesty's Ministers till the claimants at length
made up their minds that it was useless to appeal to the
British House of Commons to see that justice should be
done them. (Hear, lear,)
Sir DE LACY EVANS supported this view of the case,
on the ground that the Government had encouraged these
civilians to enter upon those military duties in the pursuit
of which they had lost their lives. The Government, he
thought, was bound to deal liberally with such cases. Ho
should not attempt he said to follow the right hon. gentle-
man into his voluminous statement, but would make a re-
mark or two on the military parts of it. He was glad to
find that suitable barracks were to be erected in India, with
secure places for the women and the treasure. This no
doubt would cost a large sum of money. He agreed with
the right hon. gentleman as to the loss which India had
sustained in the removal of Sir Charles Trevelyan. (Hear.)
He would not enter into the causes of it; but, considering
his great abilities, he thought some less severe and more
intermediate course than removal might have been adopted.
(Hear.) But the step had been taken and was now irrevoc-
able. The whole of the distresses whieh the right hon.
gentleman had detailed rested on the fact ofthe immense mili-
tary establishment kept up in Bengal. In 1857 we were taken
unawares, with 45,000 troops—perhaps only about 40,000
when the mutiny broke out, and yet the neck of it was broken
without additional troops by the downfal of Delhi, which was
accomplished without a gun or a soldier from England. No
doubt Oude gave us much trouble subsequently, but Delhi
was the turning point, and that was conquered with 40,000
troops. The people of India did not sympathise with the
revolt ; it was confined to the sepoys and their connexions
in Oude. Yet no conquest was ever more complete. No
fewer than 1,030 of the forts of the Talookdars had been
rased to the ground, and a million and a half of arms had
been taken from the people. (Hear, hear.) Still troops
were being continually sent out. (Hear, hear.) The danger
arose from our having much too large a native army, and
our present policy was, therefore, to increase our European
and to decrease our native 'forces. No doubt our European
forces had been augmented, but our native army had been I
augumented also ; and how could the finances of the coun
try be expected to bear it ? This would account for the
lamentable financial exhibition which the right hon. gentle-
man had been compelled to make. What was the meaning
of this great European force in India? No doubt, as the
right hon. gentleman had said, any reduction must be
made gradually; but, so far as he could see, there had been

no reduction at all. He very much disapproved of so large '
a force being kept up.
Mr. VANSITTART quoted Mr. Wilson against conti-
nuing to borrow in the time of peace. The most serious
fact connected with the finances of India was, he said,
that since the beginning of the present century, with the
exception of fifteen years, there had been a deficit larger or
smaller in amount, till the Indian debt had reached
£97,851,807, of which £38,410,755 had been incurred by
the mutiny of our Bengal native Sepoy army. lt was
thought that Mr. Wilson would have to encounter a deficit
of a few millions, but it had proved to be fifteen millions.
Much allowance, therefore, must be made for some severi-
ties of taxation, but he did not at all agree with his income
tax scheme, the result of which he thought would consi-
derably disappoint the Government.
Mr. CRAWFORD was prepared to give his support to
the resolution. With respect to the income tax, he was of
opinion that if levied by the natives themselves, it would be
productive of great good, and would not be attended, as ap-
prehended by some hon. gentlemen, with any bad conse-
quences.
Mr. T. BARING thought the questions relating to the
affairs of India bad not been fairly dealt with that night by
some hon. members. Complaints had been made that the
right hon. gentleman the Secretary of State for India had
appointed gentlemen to sinecure situations in that part of
the empire, and that he bad appointed an Englishman to a
situation there who had neverbeen in, and who knew nothing
whatever of the affairs of India. But those statements were
not founded in fact. The right hon. gentleman had been
taunted also on the subject of the Indian accounts. But
what was the fact ? Why, that was the first year that the
current accounts of the year had been laid on the table.
With regard to the public works, those railways only were
put a stop to which it was knows, from the difficulties of
the country through which they were being carried, would
not give a compensatory return. But compensatory allow-
ance had been made to the parties who undertook those
works, up to the point at which they had been stopped. An
hon. gentleman contended that a diminution of £2,000,000
ought to have been effected in the military expenditure in
India in the years 1859-1860 ; but it was shown that a
very considerable decrease had been made in the military
expenditure in those years, and the committee, ho
thought, ought to rely upon the council to make such
decrease in the expenditure as to them should seem wise
and desirable. The right hon. gentleman had been also
accused of creating new offices since he was appointed
Secretary of State for India; but so far from
that being the case, he had not only not created new
offices, but he abolished some old ones, and amongst them
that of the keeper of the museum. The Secretary of State
for India has so much simplified the postal arrangements
with India that very little time is lest in conducting our
communications with that country. In the matter of tax-
ation also great improvements had been made, and the
officials were so regulated that the public business was
conducted with the utmost facility. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. AYRTON thought that it world have been desir-
able to have referred the whole of this matter to a select
committee. At this period of the session however, that was
not practicable. It was impossible for the House of Com-
mons to conclude, in their present state of information, that
the proposed taxes were necessary. Sir C. Trevelyan and
other high authorities were of opinion that if the financial
affairs of India were properly managed the expenditure
could be reduced below what it was before the mutiny
°cern ; and yet, without any satisfactory information,
the right hon. gentleman asked for £3,000,000 additional.
He (Mr. Ayrton) thought the Legislative Council in India
a solemn and expensive farce, and that the sooner it was
abolished the better.
After a few words from Mr. GREGSON and Major
PARKER,
Sir C. WOOD stated, in reply to the observations of the
hon. member for the Tower Hamlets, that the bill was
brought forward as soon as possible after the receipt of im-
portant financial despatches. With regard to the hon, mem-
ber for Poole, he quite despaired of satisfying him. His
own sins, while Under-Secretary for India, he attempted
to throw on his (Sir C. Wood's) shoulder. He might say,
however, that he was not aware of any intention
of expending money from the revenues of India on
improvements at the Point de Galle. Then his hon. friend
the member for Sheffield complained of the expense of the
ecclesiastical establishments of India. All he (Sir C.Wood)
had done in the matter was to fill up the vacancies whioh
had occurred. The hon. member for Poole (Mr. Danby
Seymour) had also complained that the military reduction
in India had not been carried out to the extent it ought to
have been. He believed that the papers laid upon the table
of the house proved the contrary of this ; and he must also
say that the information in the papers upon this and all other
points was full and complete. He contended that it was
impossible to reduce the expenditure of the army in India to
the extent of £10,000,000, as suggested by the hon. gentle-
man. The right hon. gentleman then justified the appoint-
ment of Sir George Clerk as Governor of Bombay, and also
the appointment of Mr. Melville as Under-Secretary of the
India Board. He admitted that he was the author of the
Legislative Council of India, and although it had not
worked as well as-he could have wished, still good legisla-
tive measures had emanated from it. The Customs duties in
India were not imposed for protection, but for revenue pur-
poses. What he said with respect to the subject of irriga-
tion was, that if the Irrigation Company did not early out
the system fully the Government wonld not do it.
The resolution was then agreed to, and tho house re-
sumed.
FORTIFICATION (PROVISION FOR EXPENSES)
BILL.
The house then went into committee on tl-'s bill.
Clauses from 1 to 18 were agreed to.
Sir F. SMITH moved to reduce the vote for the works at
Portsmouth by the sum of £200,000. The commissioners
themselves did not propose to complete these works at once,
but to leave the connecting links between the eight works to
some :ature time, end that was a sufficient justification for
his motion. The enemy would come boldly and resolutely
to attack their arsenals, and if they were to have men to de-
fend them and their fortifications, they would have a compa-
ratively small force to that which they otherwise would to
take the field. How in that case could they meet a French
army. If they strengthened the works which they have,
far fewer men would be required to defend them than if
they were not well constructed. Take, for instance, Cha-
tham. There they at present would require only 10,000
men to defend their fortifications, but if they extended the
works they would require 20,000 men to defend thera . Their
great object should be not so much to extend as to strengthen
their defences, by which means they would liberate a large
athount of their whole force to take the field. He main-
tained that according to the way in which they were going
on, they had been wasting money on their fortifications for
years past, and he must protest against this vote. Let them
look, oven, to the New Zealanders, and they would see that
they, by their mode of proceeding, were enabled to throw
up works of the most formidable and effective character in
a few hours against the Queen's troops. Was it, then, to
be said that in this country, where they had a great body of
navigators, they would have any difficulty in throwing up
defensive works, if necessary, in a very short time ? (Hear.)
lle thought, therefore, that the proposed expense for the
fortifications at Portsmouth was unnecessary, and being of
that opinion, he should propose that the vote for the works
there be reduced to £200,000.
' Sir F. GOLDSMID did not pretend to be an authority
upon military fortifications and means of defence but look-
ing at all the circumstances, he was of opinion that the pro-
posed vote was excessive. He saw by the commissioners'
report, which he had carefully perused, that they laid great
stress upon the land defences ; but the great reliance of the
country, as means of resistance, should be upon their navy.
In the third paragraph of the report, the commissioners,
after advancing the most extraordinary conclusions that
the English fleet would lose by some means temporary pos-
session of the Channel, the enemy, in such an event might
effect a landing; but he thought there was no likelihood of
such a probability, seeing that the British fleet having com-
mand of the sea, and knowing what they were about, were
not likely to lose their course, and therefore not to give the
enemy any such chance. The war in Russia, and the more
recent war in Italy, had been referred to. Now, with re-
gard to Russia, the commanders of the invading army had
been able to lay their plans with the same ease that they
would if the Russians had no fleet at all, and seeing that the
Russians had not at all the 'command of the sea, the com-
missioners bad no ground for at all supposing that the Eng-
lish fleet would be reduced to such a condition. The ccm-
missioners had rather contemptuously referred to the facili-
ties for defence which railroads would afford for the pro-
gress of an invading force through the country. Let them
now turn to the other point raised by the commissioners.
What inference cou'd be drawn from the landing at Genoa
to the landing of hostile forces in England ? Where forces
were landed on the shores of a country whose population
were favourable to the invaders, the case was very dif-
ferent from an attempt to land hostile forces where thee
inhabitants were disposed for resistance. Therefore, the
report of the commissioners did not at all apply to this
country, and the recommended expenditure should not be
approved of, but the whole of our outlay should be on our
sea defences. He therefore hoped the motion of his hon.
and gallant friend would be approved of. (Hear.)
Mr. S. HERBERT differed in opinion from the hon.
gentleman as to the necessity of land defences. Every man
of common sense must perceive at once the advantage of
such modes of defence. Sir J. Burgoyne, and the greatest
military authorities, were of opinion that those land forti-
fications were necessary. The commission only proposed
what every engineer officer approved of. Sir W. Napier
and General S. Kennedy approved of this plan of land for-
tification. Last year Sir J. Burgoyne in his evidence deli-
berately stated that 'such works were absolutely necessary.
The proposals made by the Government were made with
the sanction of a committee, consisting of Lord Palmerston,
the Duke of Cambridge, Sir Howard Douglas, and a num-
ber of other distinguished military authorities. Sir 'Toward
Douglas's advice was to make the sea defences first, and
that was what the Government desired to do. It would be
unwise to postpone making sea defences until the last field-
works, which, when an emergency arose, would be most
important. When they had an opportunity of making a
complete and comprehensive plan, why should they leave
out any of the details ? He hoped the house would not con-
sent to the proposition of the hon. and gallant member.
Colonel DICKSON gave the amendment his cordial sup-
port. He did not think the land defences necessary. There

•
was not at this moment a standing army of sufficient
strength in the event of an invasion, and he objected that I
money should be wasted on land fortifications when it could
be much better expended in adding to the strength and
efficiency of the army. The militia too was in a most un-
satisfactory state, and as long as it was conducted on the
present system the militia would never be an efficient force.
Mr. NEWDEGATE said that if an invasion was pos-
sible it was right that they should be prepared to oppose
it. He could not, therefore, support the amendment. He
could not believe that Fortsdown fortification was unne-
cessary, and that being so ho would support the proposal.
He heartily supported the vote for the sea defences, but at
the same time they ought to proceed with economy and
caution. He objected to the proposal for a central arsenal.
Mr. BAILLIE COCHRANE said he looked at this in-
crease of the expenditure in the military affairs of the
country with great regret. They were acting with great
inconsistency in regard to the Emperor of the French. One
time he was their worthy ally, at another his whole conduct
was to be looked upon with suspicion. Entertaining this
view of the case he would support the amendment before
the house.

The committee then divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment 2B
Against it
Majority against the amendment
The schedule was then agreed to.