The Sun.
London, England, 1856-07-15 00:00:00

THE AFFAIRS OF ITALY.

Lord J. RUSSLLL—Sir, I rise to bring forward the
motion, of which I have given notice, for an "address for
copies or extracts of any recent communications which
have taken place between her Majesty's Government and
the Governments of Austria, Rome, and the kingdom of
the Two Sicilies, relating to the affairs of Italy." I sub-
mit this motion without any wish to blame any part of the
conduct of her Majesty's Government, or to press the mo-
tion should my noble friend at the head of the Govern-
ment think there would be any inconvenience at the pre-
sent moment in granting the papers to which it refers.
But the house will recollect that uo discussion has taken
place with respect to the affairs of Italy since we were in-
vited to agree to an address to her Majesty on the subject
of the treaty of peace which had been concluded at Paris ;
and the house will also recollect that, at the same time.
protocols were on the table from which it appeared that
the condition of Italy was one of the many important
questions which engaged the attention of the plenipoten-
tiaries assembled in the Peace Conferences. Now, sir, the
immediate purpose of my motion is to ask what has taken
place in consequence of the intimations then given, and if
—as I am given to understand, and as public rumour as-
serts—no satisfactory answers have been received to the
communications made by the Government of her Majesty,
and by that of the Emperor of the French, what are the in-
tentions of our Ministers with regard to their future policy ?
For, sir, I think I can show that, unless they be prepared to
pursue the course upon which they then entered, and unless
it be theirintention to take some steps of serionsimport with
respect to the affairs of Italy, it would be better for the
people of that country, and better for the character of this
house and the dignity of her Majesty, that Ministers should
at once declare that they meant no more than to make
friendly representations, and that, those friendly represen-
tations having remained without effect, it was not their in-
tention to proceed to any further consideration of the sub-
ject. (Hear.) Such a declaration would be better than the
only other course which I could conceive—the repetition of
ineffectual remonstrances, the record of useless notes, the
continual denial of that which is asked by the Powers, to
whom the representations of our Government have been
addressed. (Hear.) Sir, I beg leave, in the first place to
call the attention of the house to the nature of the state-
ments which were made at Paris. There may be those
who would say that, the war with Russia having teen
happily concluded—all the Powers who were represented
at Paris having agreed upon the terms of the pacification
—it would have been better not to raise any new ques-
tion, but to be satisfied with the work which had been

- -
lone. That, sir, is not my complaint, nor do I coin.
plain at all upon this subject ; but such was not the course
which her Majesty's Government and her Majesty's
ally, the Emperor of the French, thought it their
duty to pursue. Count Walewski, who presided at the
conferences, deemed it necessary to bring under the con-
sideration of the plenipotentiaries, on the Bth of April,
other questions deeply interesting to Europe, some of them
relating-to the general laws which govern tho relations of
nations, others affecting the different States of Europe. He
wished, as he said, to dispel " the clouds which are still
seen looming on the political horizon before they become
menacing." lam sorry to say, with regard to those clouds
Which hang over Italy, that, so far from having been dis-
pelled, they have become darker and darker—(hear)—and
that unless some happy event takes place we will soon see
them bursting into a storm. (Hear, hear.) Having made
this preface, Count Walewski stated that the occupation
of Rome by France and of the Roman States by Austria
was an abnormal condition of things; that it was one to
which he wished to see an end put by France • and that he
was sure the plenipotentiaries of Austria would participate
in the same desire. Ho spoke likewise of the affairs of
Naples, and regretted the misgovernment of that fair por-
tion of Italy. Count Walewski was followed by Lord
Clarendon, in whose declarations we musttake a still deeper
interest, as he was the representative of her Majesty in the
conferences. He stated that it was most desirable that
troops should be removed from Roam and the Roman
States.
" For the well-being of the Pontifical States," he added,
"as also for the interest of the sovereign authority of the
Pope, it would therefore, in his opinion, be advantageous to
recommend the secularisation of the Government and the
organisation of an administrative system in harmony with the
spirit of the age, and having for its object the happiness of
the people."
He stet ad further
" That for the last eight years Bologna has been in a state
of siege, and that the rural districts are harassed by brigands.
It may be hoped, he thinks, that by establishing in this part
of the Roman States an administrative and judicial system, at
once secular and distinct, and that by organising there a na-
tional armed force, security and confidence would rapidly be
restored."
With respect to the Neapolitan Government he spoke in
severer terms :
" He is of opinion that it must doubtless be admitted in
principle that no government has the right to interfere in the
internal affairs of other states, but he considers there are
cases in which the exception to this rule becomes equally a
right and a duty. The Neapolitan Government seems to him
to have conferred this right, and to have imposed this duty
upon Europe; and, as the Governments represented in the
Congress are all equally desirous to support the monarchical
principle and to repel revolution, it is a duty to lift up the
voice against a system which keeps up revolutionary ferment
among the masses, instead of seeking to moderate it."
He added—and these are supposed to be the very words c f
Lord Clarendon—

"We do not wish, he says, that peace should be disturbed,
and there is no peace without justice; we ought, then, to
make known to the King of Naples the wish of the Congress
for the amelioration of his system of government—a wish
which cannot remain without effect —and require of him art
amnesty in favour of the persons who have been condemned
or who are imprisoned without trial for political offences."
Count Buol, on the part of Austria, said something with
regard to maritime law, and he expressed a very earnest
wish to curb the liceLe ) of the press in every country wh re
the press is free; but with regard to Italy, and the occupa-,
tion of certain of the Italian States by Austrian troops, he
declined to say a word, declaring that he bad no instruc-

tions to express any opinion upoii the point. Count Cavour
afterwards expressed very strongly the wish of his Govern-
ment that the Austrian troops should be removed from the
Legations, and he stated especially that the occupation of
Parma and the city of Placentia by Austrian troops was
menacing to the independence of Sardinia. He made also
a distinction between the occupation by Austria of those
countries and the occupation by France of Rome, stating
that a separate and smell corps occupying Rome at a
distance from its own country was an object of much
less apprehension and fear, and caused much less
anxiety to the King of Sardinia, than the very large army
which was maintained by Austria for the purpose of occu-
pying a great portion of Italy and of overawing the whole
territory. That there is that distinction between the o en-
pation by Austria and the occupation by France I think
cannot be denied. There are, however, other differences
which may likewise be remarked on. The occupation of
Rome by a small body of French soldiers may be repre-
sented as similar to an occupation which the British Go•
vernment has frequently sanctioned—namely, an occupa-
tion solely for the protection of the person of the Sovereign.
It must likewise be admitted that there was some truth in
what was stated in a former debate by the lion. member
fer Dundalk —that Borne was a place where adventurers
from all parts of Italy would be apt to resort, and that the
Government of the Pope might be endangered, therefore,
not by the spontaneous efforts of the people of Rome, but
by the intrigues and conspiracies of strangers who might
resort iu any numbers to that country. But, Sir, whatever
those distinctions may be, it is, I think, a matter of very
groat importance to consider whether this occupation I.y
foreign troops of a part of Italy is to continue. In the first
place, I imagine that there is no instance resemblsng it in
the recent history of Europe. The occupation of a State by
foreign troops for the purpose of restoring order is a very
wedeln practice, and in every case it has been stated to be
temporary—it has been represented as being instituted for
the purpose of re-establishing the usual relations between
the Sovereign and his eubjecte, and when that object has
been accomplished the foreign troops have been withdrawn.
I can recollect no instance ofan occupation which has been
prolonged for the length of time that the occupation of
Ro.ne and of the Legations has been continued. After the
war of 1815 —a war which raised all Europe to arms—when
a million of troops were put in motion in order to depose
Napoleon from the throne of France, and when 150,000,t
was spent by this country alone, it was considered suffi-
cient, in the first place, that an occupation of five
years should be stipulated fur, and that term was after-
wards reduced to three years. The occupation of Spain by
France, when the Duc reAngouleme marched out, was, I
think, continued for barely three years. That occupation,
however, provoked comment in this house. The very year
after it took place, in 1824, I myself called the attention of
the house to the subject, and Mr. Canning declared that he
was convinced that no permanent occupation was intended.
In the following year, at the end of the session, Mr. Can-
ning's attention was called to the subject by Lord Brougham,
and Mr. Canning again declared that the occupation would
not be long prolonged. But in this case we have an occu-
pationA which began in the year 1849, which has con-
tinued to the present moment; and yet we do not hear on
any part that the troops could be withdrawn without
as much danger and discontent now, as it is said, as ex-
isted at the very commencement of that occupation.
( Hear.) I am not going to argue to-night—because my
question will chiefly be confined to the point of foreign
occupation—whether the Government of Rome be a good
Government or a bad one; but this I say, that if it be a
good one there can be no need of foreign troops. (Hear,
hear.) If, on the contrary, it be a bad Government, and
that bad Government have been continued for seven years
without amendment, then, I ask, what prospect is there
that in seven or fourteen years hence that Government
will be improved ? (Hear, hear.) Sir, it is necessary in
treating this subject to look at the declarations which were
made by the two Powers who sent their troops to Rome
and to the Legations in the year 1819. The House will
then see how different were the declarations made at that

time from those which are now made, and how little they
justify the presout occupation. Beginning with the
French, I take, first, part of a despatch to M. =De la Cour
who was then the French Minister at Vienna, and I find
that M. Drouyn de Lhuys, writing on the 17th of April,
1819, says :
" The Government of the Republic has resolVed to send
to Civita Vecchia, a body of troops, commanded lay General
Oudinot. Our intention in deciding on this measure has been
neither to impose on the Roman people a system of adminis-
tration which their free will would have rejected, nor to con-
strain the Pope to adopt, when he shall be recalled to the ex.
creise of his power, this or that system of Government. 'We
thought—we more than ever think—that by the force of
events —by the effect of the natural disposition of men's minds
—the system of administration which the revolution of last
November has established at Rome is destined soon to fall,
and that the Roman people will place themselves again under
the authority of the Sovereign Pontiff, provided they aro se-
cured against the dangers of a reaction ; but we, neverthe-
less, think, and in this respect, especially, our language has
never varied, that that authority will not take deep root, and
can only strengthen itself against fresh storms by the help of
institutions which may prevent the return of old abuses, the
reform if which Pius IX. bad with such generous zeal begun."
Then. the declaration to the Pope, dated April 18th, says:—
"The Pope must hasten to publish a manifesto, which, by
guaranteeing to the people liberal institutions, in conformity
with their wishes, as well as with the necessities of the times,
shall cause the overthrow of all resistance. . . What we
desire is that the Pope, on returning to Rome, shall find him-
self in a position which, once satisfactory for himself and for
his people, shall secure Italy and Europe from new commo-
tions, and shall not prejudice either the balance of power os
the independence of the Italian States."
In transmitting those documents to the Court of St.
James's, the French Minister says, under date the 19th of
April
We doubt not that the British Government will duly
appreciate a determination, the object of which is at once
to maintain, as far as shall depend on us, the balance of
power, to guarantee the independence of the Italian States,
to secure to the Roman people a liberal and regular system •
of administration, and to preserve them from the dangers of
a blind reaction, ai well as from the frenzy of anarchy."
On the 29th of April Prince Schwarzenberg writes to
Count Colloredo in the following terms
The Government of the Emperor has sent orders to Mar-
shal Count Radetzky to send troops as well into Tuscany as
into the Legations. In deciding upon this• measure we have
only complied with the demand which has been addressed to
us to this effect ou the part of the Grand Duke of Tuscany,
as well as on the part of the Holy Father, the latter having
at the same time applied for the armed intervention of France,
Spain, and Naples The object of our intervention is no other
than the re-establishment of legitimate Governments and
social order. Whenever this object shall have been attained
-and thanks to the co-operation of the sound portion of the
population we hope it will soon be so—our troops will retire."
That, be it observed, was seven years ago. Now, it is im-
possible,l think to allow that the re-establishment of social
order and the restoration of the Sovereign to his power can
have occupied the whole of these seven years, unless there
were something so vicious in the system of administration
—something so much requiring the reforms n hich Lord
Clarendon has pointed out—that the Sovereigns thought
it necessary to maintain the troops in the foreign territory
which they occupied. And here there is one observation
which I cannot help making, because I think it tends to
show that even that occupation for a time was hardly ne-
cessary. Among the other States which were led by the
great convulsions of 1818 to dispute the authority of their
Sovereign and to proclaim a different form of government
was Tuscany; but in Tuscany the new form of govern-
ment lasted only two months—during February andMarcbj
In April the people of Florence, mindful of a long course
of mild government, and recollecting the wise maxims and
beneficent rule of Leopold, the grandfather of the pre-
sent Grand Duke of Tuscany, rose against their republi-
can rulers, and restored the monarchical government
of the Grand Duke. Every great town in Tuscany, except
Leghorn, acted upon that principle ; men of the most
liberal character—the men most trusted in Florence- were
placed at the head of affairs, and the Grand Duke came
back. If he had governed according to the constitution to
which ho himself had agreed, there seems to be no reason
to believe that there would have been any outbreak. Un-
fortunately, however, no sooner had the commissaries of
the Grand Duke taken possession of the helm of affairs at
Florence than an Austrian general announced that his
corps was ordered into Tuscany. That corps remained
there until the beginning of last year, and since it marched
out there has been no disturbance. I cannot but believe
that if the rulers of Italy, not giving in at all to demo-
cratic ideas, nor going beyond the most moderate constitu-
tional government, had governed their States with equity
and justice, all pretence for this foreign occupation would

hwe ceased, even if it had ever arisen. (Hear, hear.) Be
it observed that the excuse of its being necessary in order
to support the Government, because the Government
causes discontent and disaffection, gains strength from
every unjust exercise of unjust and unlawful powers.
(Hear.) Take the case of Bologna. The city of Bologna
has been in a state of siege for the last eight years. If the
Penal Government wore to demand that the heads of 100
families in that city should be arrested and sent to a dun-
geon, there would arise great discontent and disaffection,
and then, because there was discontent and disaffection,
the foreign Government and the Papal Government would
say that it was impossible to relieve this city from the pre-
sence of foreign troops, and that the occupation must be
continued. It is an evil, therefore, which propagates

itself. (Hear, hear.) But are there no reasons even
stronger than these general considerations of this state of
things being abnormal, of there being no precedent for
such an occupation, and of the discontent which it creates
being so great as to induce her Majesty's Govern-
ment, at the Conference of Paris, to pronounce themselves
in so decided a manner, which would still lead them to
carry into effect the views which they there expressed?
This house will well remember that at the time when we
were carrying on the struggle in the Crimea—when the
troops of Great Britain and France were besieging Sebasto-
pol and were suffering every sort of privation, the Powers
of Europe generally stood aloof from that struggle, which
we proclaimed to be a struggle for European liberties. At
that time there was one State—a small State, but with an
heroic people and a heroic Sovereign, which came forward
to join us—(hear)—to add its troops to ours and to send
the Crimea apart of its small army in order to share in the
dangers and glories of our army, to stand side by side on
the banks of the Tchernaya and before the walls of Sebas-
topol with those gallant men whose reception in this me-
tropolis a few days ago filled every breast with emotions
the
command gratitude and pride. (Hear.) That noble army, by
command of the Sovereign, with the full assent of the
Chambers, became most willing associates of our hardships,
and partook of our glory and our honour. (Hear.) It would
be too much to say, too much to suppose, that the Govern.
ment of Sardinia would have added their forces to ours
in
that struggle from no other motive but regard to the gene-
ral interests of Europe. Sardinia had suffered much in its
contest with Austria, its finances had been greatly bur-
dened, and its taxes had been enormously increased. A
Sardinian Minister standing before the Parliament to ask
them to enter into this war with Russia—a distant Power,
-whose advances against Turkey, however menacing to Eu-
rope in general, did not bear on the face of them any great
danger to Sardinia—would have had great difficulty in ob-
taining an assent to his proposal had the Chambers thought
of nothing but the dangers of Europe. (Hear.) There ap-
pealed, however, to be a general impression on the part of
the Sardinian Government, and from all that I can hear a
very justifiable impression, that if they joined us in that
war their position of continued sacrifice and of consider-
able danger in Italy would be very much ameliorated by
the acquisition of the friendship of two great Powers like
France and England. I shall not be told, I hope, at least by
her Majesty's Government, that there are no words in the
treaty binding us to take into consideration the state of
Italy. The Piedmontese believe, and I hope they believe
rightly, that, although we may not be bound by the letter
of the treaty, yet that its whole spirit would give them as
much right to expect this consideration at our hands and
at the hands 01 France as if the determination to consider
the atateof Italy had been specifically inserted in the treaty.
It is therefore a question of honour with this country and
with France not to abandon the affairs of Italy. I believe
such an abandonment would be fatal, if not in name, yet
in reality, to the independence of Piedmont. The course
of affairs would bo probably this. The Austrian Govern-
ment, if they were aware that this country and France did
not mean to interfere—that we were content with the bar-
ren aid of protocols —would increase their troops from one
end of the frontier of Piedmont to the other. Piedmont
would be obliged—she is even now obliged—to keep up an
army larger than her size and resources would naturally
justify. Discontents would arise thereupon. There would
be in the Piedmontese Parliament—perhaps in the very
next session—complaints of the Government which had im-
posed such burdens upon the country, and had sent its
army to such a distance without bringing back anything
but hostility on the part of Austria and indifference and
disregard on the part of the Western Powers. It would be
said—and very likely successfully said —that, if this was to
be the result, it would be better for Sardinia to diminish
her armies, to yield to any demands which Austria might
make for the suppression of a free press and the limitation
of the right of free speaking in the Tribune, and to sink to
that wholly dependent condition which existed for some
25 years after the peace of 1815. If that wise statesman
and sincere patriot, Count Cavour, were driven from
power because England and France had failed in their
i nplicit engagements—if he were to be driven from
office amid the despair of Italy and the laments of those
who looked to us and to France for assistance, should
we not feel humiliated that we had asked for the assistance
of Sardinia, that we had ever appeared at the conferences
of Paris to say a word on behalf of the Italians ? Thera
are other considerations besides this which immediately
affect our honour. I cannot but think that if France and
Eagland, holding the position they do in Europe, should
go to a conference of European Powers, and declare that
the Roman States are misgoverned, and point out a way
in which that misgovernment can be remedied—that if
they should denounce the King of the Two Sicilies as a
monarch whose rule was so intolerable that even that
general international law which forbids others to interfere
in the internal affairs of foreign nations must be suspended
against him—and yet ie the end should allow the Austrian
Government to treat them with haughty disdain, the Pope
with positive denial, and the King of Naples with taunts
and defiaece, they would be humbled even to the dust.
I am now putting the case that it was wise and right to go
to the Conference of Paris with these statements. I was
myself an earnest advocate for that treaty with the King
of Sardinia. Say, if the house chooses to say, that the
whole of this policy has been wrong, that her Majesty's
Government, and those who support such a policy, have
advised a rash and undue interference in the affairs of
Italy. That I can well understand. Go back, then, in
your policy and assume a totally different attitude. But
what I cannot understand is, that you should maintain
the same opinions, that you should retain the seine senti-
ments, and yet that you should not proceed to execute
that which you said it was necessary to do for the security
of Europe and the good of It sly. Sir, these are questions,
and questions of great difficulty, which would arise in the
pursuit of the policy upon which we have set out; bus
recollect that the Government of this country bat a short
time ago—a Government to which I had the honour to be-
long—the very paeifl 03 reernment of Lord Aberdeen—sent
a fleet to Coustsutinuple, and ordered it to take the
command of the Black Sea—a, Ft 33 at that time very
much unknown to us—and also despatched an expedition
to take a fortress upon its shores l Is any such effort
necessary to accomplish our present object? Nothing of
the sort. I cannot for a moment think that of Great Bri-
tain and France declared that they could no longer permit
Austrian occupation, that occupation would be continued.
I do not believe that such a declaration would lead to the
slightest danger of war. Italy is accessible at all points.
Great Britain and France, with the good-will and hearty
concurrence of the whole Italian people, would surely be
more than a match for any force that the Emperor of Aus-
tria could bring against them. Well, then, you may de-
pend upon it that the Austrian Government would yield
at once to such a determination. And, he it observed,
that what I am now speaking of is not an interference in
the internal concerns of foreign nations. I will say a few
words upon that question hereafter. What I am now
speaking of is a declaration to Austria that she shall no
longer interfere. I do not propose that there should, with
regard to the Roman States, be any authoritative inter-
ference for the secularisation of the Government, or for
effecting any of those improvements of which Lord Cla-
rendon. spoke. I am quite satisfied to leave that question
to the Roman people. Let the people of the Roman States
be freed from this incubus of foreign occupation, and let
them settle with their rulers what shall in future be the
form of Government. If they, as Milton says that " na-
tions grown cor.upt" are apt to do, prefer " bondage with
ease to strenuous liberty," let them have their preference.
Far be it from us to order them to be free, or to comma :d
them to enjoy any of the libertiesof which we are ourselves
so proud, But do not let a foreign force interfere. Let
not a man who prefers not to be sent to a dungeon because
he wears a particular sort of hat, or who has been suspected
by some worthless and villanous spy, who gains his liveli-
hood by the betrayal of the upright and the good—
let not a man who has such a preference and feels that
his fellow-ceuntrymen likewise entertain it, be met
with foreign troops, and forced to submit to the mis-
government which he detests. (Cheers.) With regard to
Naples the case is different. Lord Clarendon has stated that
there the circumstances are so grave that even internal in-
terference.may be justified. What may bo the intentions
of the GoVernment I know not, nor is it for me to say
whether the case is really so strong as to justify this inter-
ference. If it is, I should much doubt the efficiency of any
new laws or the permanency of any constitution granted
under such pressure. If it merely means that those vir-
tuous and good mere who have been pining in dungeons for
years, because they had the audacity to devise for their
country somethirg better than its former misgovernment,
should be released, I can well understand that some inter-
ference may be justified. What I want to lay stress upon
is that we ought not to allow this foreign occupation to be
continued. There is, however, one par; of this subject of
which we must not lose sight, because it somewhat con-
cerns the character of this country. In the year 1812 we
were the patrons of every people in Europe who rose against
what was then the foreign i a mpation of the French army.
That army, extending from Florence to Hamburg,' excited
a strong feeling of repugnance to foreign dominion and a
strong wish for independence. We favoured that wish. In
Sicily especially—Sicily, which it was the last object and
concern of the public life of Mr. Fox to preserve for the
house of Bourbon—in Sicily we ailed to establish a free
constitution, and by means of that constitution, as Lerd
W. Bantinck stated in this house, everything gained a
new aspect ; the country which had been miserably
weak became strong, troops and militia were forth-
coming, and the commander-in-chief in Sicily was
enabled to send 6,000 British troops to Spain, to aid in the
contest there. The people enjoyed an unwonted degree of
prosperity and liberty—liberty unwonted in modern times,
but not discordant with their ancient constitution. In 1314
the British troops loft Sicily, and in that or the following
year it was stated, on the part of the British Government,
that although we did not pretend to say that there should be
no changes in the constitution, yet that the Prince Regent
would think himself justified in interfering if either those
persons who had appealed to British protection during our
stay in the island should be molested, or the prosperity and
liberty of Sicily should be materially reduced. The Sici-
lian Minister, in vaguer terms, leaving out especially the
word " liberty," accepted that declaration, and engaged
the honour of his Government to its performance. In
1815 the general treaty of peace was concluded at Vienna ;
but on the 12th or 15th of June in the same year, the
King of the Two Sicilies had signed a treaty with the
Emperor of Austria, by which he engaged that no Govern-
ment should be permitted in Naples or Sicily which was
not in conformity with that of the Austrian empire. The
Sicilians were of course treated with bad faith. They
complained that England had deserted them ; and, with-
out entering into the policy of those da s it is sufficient to
say that Lord Castlereagh was disposerLyas'someone said at
the time, to trust rather to sovereigns with large armies
at their command than to popular efforts or to popular
sympathies. A few years ago another effort
ff t was made b
Sicily. At the request of the King, Lord pinto welt
over from Naples with terms which,
aft
discus-
sion, it was thought !night at once assure the privileges loopprpillegesofthe Sicilians and maintain the union between N
Sicily. But, before he could make his communiacatisonalitdo
the leaders of the Sicilian Parliament, the Neapolitan
Government, under the direction of the King, carriedhadr
through the land intelligence of these terms,and
had
yoked so much opposition and resistance that it was found 'o-
impossible to obtain assent to them. Another effort was
male, having for its object to raise the Duke of Genoa to
the throne of Sicily. We, for our parts, should have been
happy if that effort had succeeded; but we did not think
ourselves entitled to interfere between the King of Naples
and his Sicilian subjects and, in a manner, to divide the
kingdom of Sicily from that of Naples. It must -be ad-
mittea that in that instance, and likewise in another pars
of Italy, our conduct has to a certain degree excited the

suspicion and the anger of the Italians. (Hear.) Lord
William Bentincli—than whom no j aster or more sincere
man ever stood forth, either in command of an army or as
a member of the house—when he went to the coast of
Italy, promised independence to the people of Lombardy.
That promise likewise was not carried into effect. Some
of these are certainly old reminiscences—some of them are
connected with the period when, the whole of Europe being
convulsed, it was desirable to obtain, if possible, the bless-
ings of ordef and tranquillity even at a great sacrifice. But
at the present time, after standing forward at the confer-
ences of Paris—after making largo professions am! exciting
groat expectations—after inducing the Italians to think
that a great effort was about to be made in their favour.
if we confine ourselves to notes and paper protestations, I
am afraid that we shall altogether lose the confidence of
the inhabitants of that peninsula ; that 25,000,000 of
people, who well deserve good government, will have occa-
sion to rue the day when Great Britain ever interfered in
their affairs. Seeing, then, that, while Austria is taking
fresh precautions and sending an increased military force
into Italy, the Roman government is wore severe than ever
in its system of repression and suspicion, I think it incum-
bent upon us, in concert with the Emperor of the French,
to consider what further we can do to remove these evils

(Hear, hear.) Upon that which does not properly belong
to me, but devolves more legitimately on the Executive, I
wish to offer a few words. I may be asked, " How is it pos-
sible to carry your views into effect ? (Hear, hear.) True,
we have made these declarations, but how can we act in
accordance with them?" I say, in the first place, that you
aro bound at whatever risk to support the King of Sar-
dinia. Ido not think you can possibly allow his in-
dependence to be assailed or his means of free government
to be taken away from him without declaring that we are
ready at any sacrifice to uphold the cause of one who has so
nobly stood by as. (Hear.) In the next place there is some-
thing more that we can do. Among some of the Sovereigns
of Italy there is a growing feeling that dependence on fo-
reign bayonets is not a proper position for a ruler—that a
king who enjoys the love of his people stands higher, is
more respected in the world, and more respects himself,
than one who sends for a foreign general and has his sub-
jects brought before a court-martial and shot for disobe-
dience of the orders of that foreign general. Wherever we
find this feeling springing up we ought, I think, to encour-
age it. (Hear.) There is another point on which I dare
say my hon. friend the member for Perth (Mr. Kinnaird)
is better informed than I am. It is stated that that spirit
of persecution which revolted the people of England in the
case of the Madiais, and also prompted the King of Prussia
to interfere in regard to the reformed faith with the Grand
Duke of Tuscany, has lately received a check ' • and that in
the last instance in which an attempt was made to convict
a person for endeavouring to proselytise from the Roman
Catholic religion to the Protestant the prosecution has
failed, and the verdict of the tribunal before which it was
brought will not be interfered with by the Government. If
this be so, it is a very welcome symptom not only of appro-
bation of liberty of conscience, but of a rising spirit of in-
dependence. We are further told that the haughty and in-
solent manner in which the Austrian troops have treated
the independent Sovereign of Parma, has excited resistance
and disgust in that State. I trust that this may be the
cast, and wherever it is so T think the influence of the Bri-
tish Government should be exercised to confirm those
growing feelings, and to nourish this rising spirit of inde-
pendence. (Hear.) I remember, Sir, very long ago, having
the honour of an interview in the Isle of Elba with
the First Napoleon. The Emperor talked much of the
States of Italy, and agreed in the observation which I had
made that there was no union among them, and no likeli-
hood of any effectual resistance by them to their oppres-
sors ; but when I asked him why Austria was so unpopu-
lar in Italy he replied, that it was because she governed,
not with the sword (that was probably not a reflection
which that great man would make), but that she had no
other means of governing except by " stick." (Laugh-
ter.) I believe, sir, that that is the secret of the whole
disfavour with which Austria is viewed in Italy. Taking
this to be the fact, I say that you have a means ready to
your hands for rousing the feelings of the Italian people,
and that if we and the Emperor of the French once declare
that we shall not allow the States of the Pope to be occu-
pied by Austria beyond a certain fixed date, the attain-
ment of their evacuation will be a matter of comparative
ease. One thing, indeed, I have heard, and it is a mere
whisper, a surmise—namely, that the Government of the
Emperor of the French, which agreed with us so much at
Paris that its Minister for Foreign Affairs took the initia-
tive, is not prepared at present to protest any further
against the foreign occupation of Italy. I, for one, sir,
cannot believe—l think it is impossible to believe—that a
Sovereign who was so faithful an ally to this country
who during the late war proved himself so ready to aid us,
and to act in every way as became a Monarch true to his
engagements, would ever lead the King of Sardinia to rely
on his support, and then allow that hope to be disap-
pointed. (Hear.) The matter to which I allude may. be
one of some time—it may require the adaptation of vari-
ous means to the end in view. It is for her Majesty's
Government to carry on communications on this subject.
They have the time before them in which to do so ; but
this I will 'say, I cannot but think that, if having done,
and having proclaimed so much we are contented with the
refusal of all that wo propo-Se—if we sit down quietly
without obtaining any improvement in the condition of
Italy, it will be to us a ground of everlasting reproach. I
trust, therefore, that in the course of the autumn, or at
least before the next meeting of Parliament, the object
which Lord Clarendon had in view at Paris will be effected.
I know that no greater object can be aimed at by a states-
man. When Lerd Byron was in Italy in 1821, and had
become enthusiastic in her cause, ho sail that the cause
of Italian freedom was "the very poetry of politics." I
believe it is "the poetry of politics • but I believe, at the
same time, that it is also a practical question. lam sure
it is one on which our character and credit depend. I.
express no want of confidence, but I do think that before
Parliament separates this house ought to have from the
Government some declaration of the one kind or the other
—either that they are not prepared to carry any further
their interference in the affairs of Italy, or that, using
whatever means they deem best adopting whatever mea-
sures they think most adequate to the occasion—they do
mean to attain this end—the independence of the Italian
states.

Lord PALMERSTON sail—l think the house will not
be surprised that my noble friend, who has taken so great
an interest in so many important transactions throughout
the world, should have deemed it to be his duty before
the present session closes, to draw the attention of the
house, and through the house the attention of the country,
to those interesting matters which he has just brought
under our consideration. It is impossible, I think, to
overstate the importance of those matters in the present
condition of the world. We hive just seen the termina-
tion of one of the greatest although certainly ono of the
shortest wars in which this country was ever engaged—a
war which involved interests of the deepest and greatest
magnitude, and which might, if it had continued, multr
certain circumstances, have extended itself over the
greatest part of the surface of Europe. That war h--s
happily been terminated, and those questions which
gave rise to it, and which threatened in their conse-
quences the greatest calamities to Europe, have been
settled in a manner which I trust will for a long period
avert the recurrence of similar dangers. (Hear.) When
the congress assembled which was to discuss and deter-
mine the conditions of peace, it was natural that the re-
presentatives of the great powers of Europe should not
separate without directing their attention to other matters
of European interest beyond those which were the imme-
diate object of their consideration My noble friend, I
think, assigned ample reasons why that course should have
been pursued. It would have been a reproach to the re-
presentatives of the great powers of Europe if, when they
were brought together to accomplish the groat purpose of
European pacification, they hail shut their eyes to circum-
stances which might in the future bring about complica-
tions as dangerous to the peace of Europe as those which
it was their gratifying duty to put an end to. The affairs
of Italy, therefore, naturally attracted their attention. My
noble friend well remarked that the occupation of inie•
pendent states by foreign nations is a departure from the
ordinary and proper condition of things, which can only
be justified by an immediate and pressing necm rity, and
which ought not to be continued beyond the duration of
the emergency which gave it bi th. (Hear.) The occuplatir
therefore, of the Roman states by foreign troops naturally
claimed the attention of the plenipotentiaries at the con-
• gross, and there was no member of that congress who was
more fit to direct the attention of his colleagues, and through
them the attention of the governments of Europa, to that
subject, than the representative of the Emperor of the
French, who had partly joined in that occupation; and
most honourable I think it was to the Emperor of the
French that he should have taken that opportunity of ex-
pre-sing his desire that the occupation should cease, pro-
vided the assent of Austria could be also obtained to the
ueseation of that state of things. These discussions did not
lead to any satisfactory result, as my noble friend stated.
The representative of Austria held out no expectation that
his Government w•arid takoany steps in that direction, and
he professed himself to be without instructions from his
Gov rnuent„ lly noble friend wishes to know in regard to
that matter what are the intentions of her Majesty's Govern-
ment— whether we mean to let the matter drop altogether,
or if we think it ourduty to urge this matter, and what steps
it is our iniention to take. I think my noble friend and the
house must feel that when her Majesty's Government, in
conjunction with the Government of France, made them-
selves parties to public and official representations; as ith the
view of inducing a cessation of that abnormal occupation,
that was not a momentary impulse —(hear, hear)—and that
no temporary disappointment of their expectations would
induce the Governments of the two countries to desist from
their undo ivours to accomplish a result which they thought
right in pri' ciple, sound in policy, and conducive to the
best interests of Europe. (Hear, hear.) What steps the
Government may think it right to adopt, I think my noble
friend, above all men, will feel that it would be unbecoming
on the part of her Majesty's Government to state ; but I
have no hesitation in saying that we think theobject is one
t of great aud general importance, and that we do not ab ra-
don the hope that it may be ultimately accomplished.
(Hear.) It is said, on the one hand, that if that occupa-
tion were to cease revolts and revolutions and scenes of die-
aster would occur in the Ttelian States. It would be unbe-
coming in a spectator at this distance to pronounce any
opinion on the value of such an objection, but reasoning on
general principles one cannot bring oneself to think that
those anticipations are notexaggorated —that a Government,
like that of the Pope, at the head of which is a man of
whose benevolent intentions and enlightened ideas the past
has given us sufficient proof, could not so regulate the ad-
ministration of affairs as to remove those causes of violent
dissent which alone produce convulsion in states. I will
not go back to the advice given to the Pope in 1831 by the
representatives of the five great powers, but will observe
that no later than 1819, when the Pope returned to his
dominions, he published an edict called a proprio mote
by which he announced his intention of establishing insti-
tutions, uot, indeed, on the scale of representative govern-
ment, but still based on popular election, and which, if
carried into fall effect, would, I think and feel confident,
have afforded that contentment to his subjects which
would have rendered the interference of foreign troops in
his dominions wholly unnecessary. That proprio mote
professed to establish municipal councils founded on elec-
tion, with a franchise of a most extended description.
Those municipal councils were to elect members to form
provincial councils, and those provincial councils, again,
were to elect members to form a council of state in Rome
—a council certainly not administrative—and then there
was to have been a council of finance, to give advice on the
financial arrangements of the State. I cannot but think
if the Pope had put in force even that limited arrange-
ment of the proprio mote, that such security would have
been afforded for the tranquillity of his dominions as to
render their occupation by foreign troops unnecessary. As
to that point, I can only repeat what I have already
stated, that her Majesty's Government feel that the cessa-
tion of that foreign occupation is an object of European
interest, and which it would be becoming the Government
of this country and the Government of France, if possible,
to acc nnplish. Now, wi k regard to the affairs of Naples,
I am sorry to say that the friendly representations of the