The Sun.
London, England, 1856-11-20 00:00:00

LONDON. THUESDAY EVENING, NOVEMBER: :_o, 1856.

SIR JORN PAKINGTON ON NATIoNALL

EDUCATION.

On Wednesday evening the Right Hon. Sir J. S. Pak-
ington, Bart., M.P., delivered an address on national edu-
cation to the members of the Manchester Athenaeum, in
compliance with an invitation from the directors of that
institution. Sir E. Armitage presided on the occasion, and
there were present Mr. J. S. Pakington, Mr. Watts, Mayor
of Manchester ; Sir. J. Potter, Mr. Bazley, Mr. J. A.
Turner, Sir J. Bardsley, the Rev. W. Gaskell, and
Mr. Fairbairn, C.E.
Sir J. PAKINGTON was received with loud and continued
applause. After a few preliminary remarks, be said he had
come there as a sincere supporter of a cause which trusted
not to the eloquence of its advocates, but to the power
of its truths and the magnitude of its interests. (Ap-
phuse.) He did not come to charm with the beauties
of poetical language or of historical illustration ; he
came to appeal—and simple phrases would best suit
his purpose—to the hearts, feelings, judgments, and
common sense of his bearers, and to ask, How can we best
promote that object which concerns, more closely almost
than any other, the character, the happiness, the real wel-
fare of the labouring man ? (Hear.) He came to ask them
to enable every citizen of England to cultivate those powers
of reason and of intellect which constitute God's best and
most precious gift to the human race, and for our use of
which we ought to be grateful hero as we should be held
responsible hereafter. (Hear, hear.) Ho doubted whether
it was at all generally known how immense was the nume-
rical proportion of our fellow-countrymen who were inte-
rested in the question of national education—that out of a
population of 18 millions in England and Wales, there
were only about 480,000 who deriveal, from any source, a
yearly income of 1001. or more. Taking the number at
half a million, and allowing five persons to a family, there
would remain 15 millions and a half of men, women, and
children who were dependent upon incomes of less than
1001. a•year ; and he doubted not that all present would
agree that every man whose means were less than 1001.
a-year must look to a cheap and good education for his
children as among, not the secondary, but the primary, ne.
cessaries of life. (Applause.) The question was not, then,
limited merely to labouring men. The tradesman and the
farmer, as a rule, in matters ,of education, paid dearly for
a bad article ; and if every existing school in England was
what it ought to be, instead of being exactly the reverse,
there ought to be in every town and village schools in

which the children of the small tradesman or farmer, in

.ommon with the children of the labourer, might receive
the blessings of elementary instruction. (Applause.) It was
so in other countries; why should it not be so in England ?

To turn from the magnitude of the question to its position
and prospects, it stood at this moment in a critical situation,
and it needed the support of public opinion. During the
last two years the question had been the subject of re-
peated and protracted debates in Parliament. Mr. Milner
Gibson and himself were two of those who had submitted
measures to the Honseof Commons, his own beingone which
embodied what he thought might possibly be adopted here-
after, at all events, as one mode of settling the question.
His bill led to considerable discussion, but to no decisinn.
Lord John Russell during the last session proposed a se-
ries of resolutions essentially the same in principle as his
(Sir J. Pakington's) bill. In the debates an important

issue had been clearly raised between those who think that
we do imperatively require extended means of education
and those who think that we do not. It had been con-
tended by statesmen of eminence in the House of Com-
mons, by writers of great and known ability, and more
especially in two pamphlets that had deservedly attracted
great attention—those of _Mr. E. Baines, of Leeds, and
Mr. Un win, the head of the Homerton College—that no
change was necessary in our means of extension ; that we
were going on perfectly well and ought to be satisfied ;
and that to resort to any means of extension, in the way of
supplying deficiencies from any public fund, would be too
expensive, and that the country could Lot afford it. Those
arguments prevailed ; and Lord John Russell's resolutions
were rejected by a very large majority. He (Sir J. Baking-
ton) had stated last session his apprehension that this de-
cision would cause great alarm among the friends of po-
pular education. He had seen nothing which so strongly
justified this fear as an address issued to his constituents
by Mr. Laing, a very able and very moderate momber of
the House of Commons. Mr. Laing said :

" Public opinion and the House of Commons, by an im-
mense majority, decided not so muck against any particu-
lar resolution, faulty as manyof them were, as against the
principle of attempting, under existing circumstances, to
supersede local and private efibrts by any grand, uniform,
and centralised system of national education. For the
next 10 or 12 years the question is practically decided,
that if we want education, we must educate ourselves, and
not trust to the'State to do it for us."

He protested against the idea—(hear, hear, and applause)—
that an almost unintelligible division in anexpiring House
of Commons should settle this great question, affecting the
vital interests of the people, for even 20 monthp—(applause)
—if public opinion demandeditsrevival. (Loud applause.)
He could only explain this language by Mr. Laing's by the
fact that it was written by a Scotchman to Scotchmen—

(laughter)—for he could well understand how any Scotch-
man might regard with contempt the state of public edu-
cation in England, where we were constantly struggling in
vain to obtain a system of national education similar in its
principles to that which Scotland had enjoyed, to the great
advantage of her national character, for the last 20J years.
He must, while altogether denying the conclusion to which
Mr. Laing came, admit that such language was held by
men beyond all question of great ability, high character,
and most honourable motives. Finding that such was the
case, he had, as was his duty, gravely considered all the
grounlis for his own opinion and for the opinion of those
who differed from him, so far- as he could learn them
from their speaking or writing; and the only conclusion
to which he could come was that the views put forth by the
gentlemen to whom he had alluded were erroneous, mis-
taken, and unsound. Tho question for the country was
on which side the truth lay ; for this question must be
decided by the truth. There was no ambiguity or possi-
bility of mistake in the issue as raised. Sir Jas. Graham,
in a very able speech in the house, and one which produced
a great effect, said on Lord John Russell's resolutions—
"My first objection to this proposal is that it is unne-
cessary. I contend in the strongest manner that there is
no country in Europe in which the progress of education
within the last 25 years has been so rapid and so satisfac-
tory as it has in England."
Mr. Baines, a very high authority, said—

" Objection 6.—The measure is perfectly unnecessary:.
t
We possess, on official evidence, the great facts whole oft
of heraprd
and steady progress of education during h
the
present century."
men of ability who took part in the controversy, he
like
the same in substance. They all felt that something.ht
ith.
Mr. Unwin was not quite so dogmatical ; but, withhemhaenlya
out exaggeration, be said to be contained,
in 8 2-3de of the
proof was needed from them ; but theirpr
in the single fact that in 1851 there were 1 h
wed a
when an estimate
increase theproportion shown
great upon mainly at at'ilweast,
population attending school, whiph undoubtedly showed
was previously taken, about 20 years before.
not be
voluminous speeches and pamphlets there would
ls
hand, he believed he was right in saying that in all their
found any reference whatever to the quality of the schools
which existed. (Hear.) Their boasted 8 2,3ds was a pro-
portion inferior to that of other countries—it was insuffi-
cient and unsatisfactory ; but he denied altogether that
the question was absolutely, or even mainly, one of num-
bers. (Hear.) Numbers became comparatively unimpor-
tant if the schools to which they went were not worth
having. The question he would ask was this—From the
Tweed to the Land's-end are the schools of England what
they ought to be ? (Hear, hear, and no, no.) Where they
were good—and no doubt there were many good—there
was no security for their permanent continuance as such.
(Hear.) And what pi-ospect was there, if the present
system continued, of their progressive improvement?
(Hear.) Some of the gentlemen to whom he had referred,
not content with saying that plans proposed ware bad,
had proposed plans of their own. Mr. Unwin had
done so. And while speaking frankly and sincerely of these
gentlemen and their views, he wished it to be distinctly
understood that he appreciated fully their abilities and sin-
eerity. Mr. Unwin thus stated his plan ;
"I maintain that national education ought to be the
woi k of the people themselves since the training of child-
ren is essentially the duty of parents—a responsibility they
cannot neglect, or devolve on any classes, sects, or parties
in the community, Without gesilt or injury to themselves—
that the true purposes of education would be defeated if,
on the one hand, parents should be compelled to educate
their offspring, or, on the other, should succeed in com-
eeao
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rl —ebnpet
tohnspae
the
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aute
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polling their fellow-citizens to provide for them the means
sf educatingtha tone theirof p o pchildren,
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on this subject, to assist s
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apsat ti
or iho iss
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atablepersons in fitting them-
selves for the profession of teaching, and to aid the really
needy in their efforts to discharge a sacred obligation."
Who denied that it was the duty of parents to educate
their children? (Hear, and laughter.) Did Mr. Unwin
think that a question of this magnitude, and unhappily so
complicated, could be settled by truianas such as this ? Did
not Mr. IThwin know that at present, in practice, we did
not expect the poor man to bear the expense of educating
his own children? (Hear.) A table in one of the last se.
ports of the Committee of Council on Education showed
that, out of 500,000 children attending inspected schools,
75 per cent. did not pay more than 2d. per week for their
education. (Hear.) There were 35 percent. paying only id.,
40 per cent. paying 2d., and the remaining 25 per cent.
paying 3d., 4d., or perhaps more. The cost of anything
like good education in this country was at least sd. or 6d.
a week, and therefore it was demonstrated that at present
we did not expect the great majority of the working classes
to pay more than one•see,;-tb or onn.third at the most, Cs f

what it cost to educate their children. The idea of parents
educating their children, though good in the abstract, was
not now acted upon. (Applause.) Mr. Baines said—
"lt surely is obvious to common sense that to compel
parishes to establish and sustain schools is not only to take
away all the merit and the honour of spontaneous action,
and thuspro Canto to destrey (by superseding) the patriot-
ism, benevolence, and public spirit which ave done such
great things for education ; but it is to violate liberty it-
self."
He (Sir John Pakington) could not acceptsuch a sentence
as a practical solution of a great question. (Hear, hear,
and applause.) What was there in it that would not be
equally applicable to our Poor Law, for the physical re-
lief of the poor, or to our criminal law, for the punish-
ment of offenders ? (Hear, hear.) He ()odd understand
(with respect be it said) a gentleman who was the known
and very able advocate of certain views putting forth
such ideas and making the best fight he could; but
for himself he (Sir John Pakington) should have taken
Mr. Baines's pamphlet very much like other partisan
pamphlets which were considered perfectly unanswerable
by those who agreed with them, and were laughed 1
at and put into the fire by those who differed from them .
(Hear, hear, and laughter.) Yet these views had been
held up in the House of Commons as irresistible; and,
therefore, those who thought them untenable, and perfectly
incompetent to meet public necessities, were bound upon
public occasions to take a degree of notice of them which,
perhaps, otherwise they would not think necessary. (Hear,
hear.) He would now turn to some of the facts to which he
referred when ho said that the cause must be judged and
decided by the public according to its truths. With a few
exceptions, the inspected sehools were about the best we
had ; and yet only 50 per cent. of 'Ahem were, according
to the inspectors, satisfactory. This s great fact.
+A_

How did Mr. Baines and their opponents get rid of it ?
and how could they be surprised and wonder that with
this state of things, the results were bad? Turning to
practical results, how did Manchester stand ? Three years
ago—and in the progress of a great question three yews
were but as three days—in the evidence given before the
Committee of the House of Commons upon the Manchester
and Telford Education Bill, in support of which Church-
men, Roman Catholics, Wesleyans, and members of other
denominations worked harmoniously, anxiously hoping to
get rid of the stain which rests upon this country—Dr.
WlCerrow gave evidence that there were in Manchester
30,000 children between the ages of 3 and 11 who were
neither at school nor at work, and this hebelieved (speaking
from memory), was nearly half of the whole number of
children at school age. Mr. Baines, Sir J. Graham, and other
authorities stated that our progress was satisfactory, and we
were getting on very well. How was Manchester getting on?
Not a bit. (Laughter.) From a table submitted to the same
committee it appeared that in 1834 1 in 10 of the popu-
lation were at school, and in 1851 the proportion had
descended to lin 14. The progress was in the wrong di-
rection. He did not accept as an excuse the rapid increase
of population. Was it right, decent, or consistent with
our character, wealth, and generosity that we should have
such a mass of degradation around us? In London, accord.
ing to Mr. Tuffnell, inspector, and Mr. Aubin, the head
of the great school at Annerley, 73 per cent. of the child-
ren of the working population, at 10 years of age, were
absolutely uneducated and ignorant of everything. In
Bath, where more assistance was derived from Govern.
ment than in any other portion of that part of England,
last year's attendance at the schools had fallen off no less
than 400 children, showing clearly that something was
wrong—that we wanted a better system, or a better some-
thing else. Two days ago he received a begging letter from
Chatham, asking him to subscribe to schools there, there
being none, and he sent an indignant refusal. It was mon•
strous that in a garrison town where the Government had
great arsenals, they could not establish a school without
going and begging of Worcestershire country gentlemen.
(Laughter.) It was time to put an end to such a system
as this. (Applause.) The Dean of Hereford, in a pub-
lished letter on the state of education in Hereford,
says—

" It is much to ba regretted that so large a proportion of
the children around us, at ages when their labour is be-
' coming of a marketable value, should be so entirely un-
educated; and it may be unhesitatingly asserted that three-
fourths of those of the labouring classes in this town, and a
greater proportion in the neighbouring parishes, have no
knowledge whatever at such age, either Scriptural or secu-
lar, which can be termed education for the industrial
classes, even in the sense of those who take the lowest
standard by which to measure them."
Could they have anything stronger than that? He was
sorry that the reports of her Majesty's inspectors of schools
were not better known than they were, being only published
in the little-read form of blue-books. The Rev. F. Wat-
kins stated with reference to the county of York that pri-
vate means for bettering the elementary edncation'of the
working classes had been freely used, and had produced
little effect ; the sums subscribed were diminishing rather
than increasing ; and the results of inspection brought to
light very little, if any, improvement. The Rev. Mr.
Norris, who visited Shropshire and the district, said that
in making his annual returns, and noticing the satisfactory
signs of improvement, he could not but remember how in-
complete was the picture presented by the reports. The
bright spots, he said, were few ; breadths of darkness and
masses of neglected population intervened ; town parishes
that had long outgrown the strength of their overworked
and underpaid curates ; monster villages that had sprung
up around the newly-opened mines or works of some hard-
headed, hard-hearted contractor; and the estate, it might
be, of some large landed proprietor, who did not wish to
see the people educated, and who would much rather have
each fold his one talent in a napkin against the great day
of account ! " For such places," said Mr. Norris, " I
see at present no hope." In the debate in the last session
he (Sir John Pakington) adduced some very strong state-
ments as to the condition of the dioceses of Bath and
Wells, which led to a correspondence with the Rev. Mr.
Vaughan, the diocesan inspector in that bishopric. That
gentleman wrote that heconsidered the great mistake of all
educational societies was that they hid the real state of the
case; in his report to the bishop he had represented the
state of the diocese in its true colours; and, although it
thus appeared to be far behind the rest of England, he did
not believe such was the case. " I trust," wrote Mr.
Vaughan, " education is advancing among us, though very,
very slowly." Mr. Baines had said it was advancing very,
very rapidly ; bat who was the bestjudge as respected the
county of Somerset—Mr.Vaughan, who lived in the county,
or Mr. Baines, who resided at Leeds ? As to Herefordshire,
who was best qualified to decide—the dean, who saw what
was going on, or Mr. Unwin, whose time was occupied with
his own college ? A practical illustration of the working
of the present system came under his (Sir J. Pakington's)
notice recently. He was staying with a friend, a gentle-
man of fortune, and the proprietor of a parish of 6,000
acres, with a population of 400, in Shropshire. His friend
was patron of the living, and one of his friend's sons was
hlcei ho:3leusol
clergyman
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of curates were frequent, the only school that had ever ex-
isted in the parish was discontinued, and the 1,100 inhabi-
tants had not the means of educating a single child. This
was enough to prove the unsoundness of the present state
of things. There could be no confidence in the continu-
ance of a good school when it depended upon the life or
character of the proprietor of the estate, or upon the cler-
gyman's remaining in the same cure. The labours of the
clergy of all denominations, in the matter of education,
merited all praise ; but they were over-tasked, and quite
unequal to the duties which in this respect were imposed
upon them. And he believed it to be true, although it
might seem anomalous, that the very zeal of the clergy was
one cause of the low quality of the schools ; inasmuch as
an immense number depended upon the clergy, who, from
want of means, were unable to make them good, and there-
fore they were maintained at their present low and unsa-
tisfactory level. He would sot now repeat the dreadful
facts as to the educational state of our criminals, but he
must call attention to that branch of the subject of educa-
tion which related to destitute and vagrant children—the
seed from which annually a great harvest of crime was
gathered. A fortnight since he was walking in the Cathe-
dral-close at Worcester with borne friends, when they met
a vagrant-child 10 years old. In answer to inquiries he
said ho had neither father nor mother ; that he had come
from Market Drayton, and got his living by begging.
What, humanly speaking, must be the future of that child?
Vice, crime, punishment, suffering—he durst not go fur-
ther. This child was the type of a class that filled the
gaols, kept the courts of justice in action, and drew men of
business from their merchandise to try these miserable
victims—victims in the majority of cases of England's ne-
glect. (Hear.) Was this class a large one? In Manchester
alone Mr. M'Kerrow gave it as his opinion that there were
4 000 children for whom such an institution as the Juve-
nile Refuge was required. The Rev. P. O'Leary (chaplain
of the Manchester City Gaol) had stated, in a report which
was recently published, that of 2,111 individuals commit-
ted in the course of the year 1,310 could not read at all.
Dr. Guthrie, of Edinburgh, stated before a Committee of
the House of Commons that there were between 2,000 and
3,000 children in Edinburgh who were in a condition
which required the provision of a ragged school in order
to save them from crime. The same was the case in Bris-
tol and in London ; in fact, these children were swarming
wherever we went. The question then arose; would this
state of things be corrected by the voluntary system ?
Turning again to Dr. Guthrie's evidence, he found the fol-
lowing statement
" There are two suggestions which I will bring before the
committee :—The first is that we cannot succeed by voluntary
effort, as far as we have tried it—our funds are not in-
have not diminished materially; but whencreasing ; they
•
the blush and novelty of the thing 's over we rather fear
they may diminish a little; but supposing they remain as
they are, we have not succeeded in raising them year by
year as we would wish to do. The amount of money which
we can command by means of voluntary effort is far short
of what is needed by the necessities of Edinburgh. We
have now in the different Edinburgh schools about 600
children. I am satisfied that there are still remaining in
Edinburgh, who would require to be admitted into such
schools, between 1,500 and 2,000 children."
Within the last few days he had received the last report of
the Model Secular School in Manchester,wbich he hoped to
have the privilege of visiting on the following day. What-
ever difference of opinion might exist with reference to one
distinctive feature of that school, no one could deny that it
had been founded with the most laudable purpose, and that
it had produced the best results. But What did he find in

• the report.? A similar statement to that he had read from
Edinburgh, or that they could not get on for want of money,
that they were paralysed, that their action was impeded,
and that the voluntary contributions did not meet the cost.
This was what he heard on all sides, and yet whenever
anybody proposed a measure in the House of Commons for
putting an end to this state of things, which was a public
evil, at the public cost, it was urged that it was too expen-
sive to adopt such a measure. Now (continued Sir J. Pak-
ington), I can well understand and make great allowances
for the differences of opinion which arise legitimately and
fairly in consequence of those peculiar difficulties which in
England do attend the solution of this question ; but when
I am told that wealthy England cannot afford the expense,
Ido feel indignant at such an answer. (Hear, hear.) And
what is the state of public affairs while this argument is
raised ? We are now paying an income-tax of 6 2-3ds
per cent. ; in 1815 we paid 10 per cent., and, .perhaps,
you may not know that the incorne•tar in 1355 produced
more money than in 1815 by about 100,0, 0/. ; the 10 per
cent. yielded 13,610,0001., and last year the amount was
13,718,0001: I will turn to another criterion, to that ele-
ment of national wealth derived from the trade and manu-
facture of England, a subject which is familiar to you. 1
find ;that the declared value of our exports in 1815 was
51,898,0001., while in 1853 it was 95,669,0001.—very nearly
double the former sum. (Hear, hear.) Then how stand
our rates in the two periods? The rate for tha relief of
the; poor in 1815, after all this vast increase of wealth and
every element of national prosperity, was 2u0,000/. less
than it was in 1815. (Hear, hear.) How, then, are we to
be told that when the temporal and eternal welfare of our
fellow-countrymen is at stake it is too expensive, and
costly to have any national education? You will suffer
!lie, I am sure, to show you how this question• of expense
is treated in two other countries ; and I believe you will
thank me for calling your attention to the noble language
—tb which, as an Englishman, let me do justice—which I
ana.about to read to you, from the official report presented
in 1855 by the Board of Education of New York. Imagine
for the momentthat it is Manchester w hich is referred to :
1e This vast, increase in the population of our city will
bring with it a corresponding multitude of youth who are
to be trained for Lusefulness in society. This cannot be
done for nothing. The education which costs nothing is
worth nothing. Education has a scale of prices, like every
other marketable commodity. The best minds must be
had to engage in the work, and feel' that in this depart-
ment of labour they are achieving tasks worthy of their
country and of the age. It will not do to have the sun to
stand still upon our valleys and hills and broad prairies,
while we fight battles with Philistines or Anakim who
would destroy our institutions. The world moves, and the
battle thickens, and we must be at our posts and fall or
conquer in our day. . . Thousands of the school age
will be added to our juvenile population every year. In a
few years the addition to this class of our people will not
be less than 10,000 annually. Their wants must be pro-
vided for. Physically they want bread, and it will be
found ; clothing, and it will be at hand. They will want
knowledge, and it must be given to them."
In another pay, on the same subject of money, I find
this :

" Ample provision has been made for the education and
instruction of every child of suitable age, in institutions
admirably adapted to the purposes they were designed to
subserve ; and, although the annual expenditure for this
object verges on and will soon exceed a million of dollars,
over and above the State appropriation, the public senti-
ment cheerfully sanctions and sustains every extension of
the system which promises to include within its elevating
and ennobling influence an increased number of hitherto
destitute and ignorant children, or to furnish increased
fabilities for the mental and moral culture of those already
subjected to its discipline and control."
When shall we hear language equally earnest, zealous,
said patriotic from a Minister of Public Instruction in
London ? (" Hear, hear," and applause.) The only re-
maining authority to which I wish to turn for a moment
is one which I regard with peculiar interest. I hold in
my hand a report upon popular education among our
own fellow-subjects and fellow countrymen in Upper
Canada :

"Each city, town, township, and village has its own
municipal council; while each city, town, village, and
school section has equally its own independent school orga-
nisation, each possessed of extensive corporate powers.
Otte is supreme in civic affairs, while the other is not less
sot in all matters pertaining to the schools. The one ac-
cepts, on behalf of the whole people the legislative school
grant, and imposes an assessment equivalent to the amount
granted,, while the other imposes any additional assess-
ment required, and controls the entire expenditure of
the school moneys, establishes libraries, and promotes
the general interests of the schools. In Upper Canada we
have 42 counties, 5 cities, 22 towns, 16 villages, and 400
townships, or about 500 municipalities. ,We have also the
same number of city, town, and village school cc rporations,
together with 3,3:.0 school corporations in the rural school
sections, and 70 grammar school boards. The schools are
inspected at least twice a-year by local superintendents,
appointed by the county councils, or, in the cities, towns,
and villages, by the boards of trustees. The inspectors of
grammar schools are appointed by a central provincial
authority."
I find this plan in Canada is in substance precisely the
same as I ventured to submit for England last year—
namely, grants by the central Legislature in aid of local
funds, and boards for local management. What is the '
result in Canada ? The popnlatiou in lest was 1,000,000 ;
the number of children at school was 201,000,—more than
one in five. When I have referred, as I have on fernier
occasions, to the state of education in Switzerland, Prussia,
and other countries of Europe, I have been told, " Oh,
you are asking to Germanise our system in England. It is
all very well in Germany, but won't do here." I never
heard why. But I beg yon to observe that I havb not now
referred to Prussia, or Switzerland, or Francs, or Holland,
or many other countries which I might have mentioned. I
have given you one glorious passage from New York, but
the countries to which I have mainly referred are Scotland
and Upper Canada. Now, I wish to ask you and the pub-
lic—it is a question that must be answered—wby is a sys-
tem which is good and beneficial for the Queen's subjects in
Scotland and Upper Canada to be held as bad and inapplie.
able for the Queen's subjects in England? (Hear, hear.)
This question remains to be answered, and until some
satisfactory answer is given to it the British public ought
not to be satisfied with the present condition of education.
(Bear, hear.) Gentlemen, in compliance with your request,
I have thus stated to you my opinion, and I have given you
the reasons for that opinion. I have stated to you that I
continue of the same opinion which I have repeatedly ex-
pressed, that the state of education iu England is insuffi-
cient, unsatisfactory, and unworthy of this country. I
utterly reject the idea, although I respect the men who say
so, that our progress is what it ought to be, and that our
condition is such as that we ought to be contented. My
views of the remedies which this state of things requires are
before the public; and my opinion with respect to those
remedies has undergone no change. But this, I beg to say,
emphatically and distinctly, that I am free, and that I will
keep myself free, to support any plan to ameliorate this
state of things of which my judgment and my conscience
may approve. There are, I believe, three changes which
are indispensable to a better state of things. Tho first is
that, in some way or other, what is !called the half-time
system should be adopted, so as to be in use for all classes
in this country, and not to be limited, as it now is, to fac-
tories or establishments of one kind. 2d. We must have,
and we ought to have, a better, more complete, and more
perfect organisation. 3d. We must have a larger and more
certain supply of money. With regard to organisation, her
Majesty's Government have taken a most important step,
and I trust the day is now at hand when we shall have a
responsible Minister in the House of Commons to answer
for the state of education. I think it due in fairness and
justice on my part to say that I feel grateful, and I think
the country ought to feel grateful, to her Majesty's Minis:
ters for the manner in which this most important step has
been conceded. But that is not enough ;we ought to have
some organisation for local superintendence and local con-
trol. One objection raised against us in the House of Com-
mons is that we are seeking a centralising system. On the
contrary, I object to the present system as being too much
centralised. Everything is done by a comparatively irre-
sponsible committee. I have myself had the honour of sit-
ting upon it, and know haw it works,and I want it changed.
We ought to have local control—local organisation; and I
don't behave we can possibly expect to have the education
of the countrywhat it ought to be unless that centralautho-
rity, modified how it may be, is aided by the local bodies
of the people to take an interest in the subject. With re-
gard to the increase of money, I confess I see no course
but ths:t, as I said before, a great public object, in
which every one of us is deeply interested, ought fairly
to be promoted by public funds ; and therefore my
opinion is that the most fair, just, and equitable
mode of supplying existing deficiencies is by means of
a rate. (Hear, hear.) In the debates it had been put most
prominently forward that a rate for education would be
open to all the difficulties and objections which are applied
to a Church rate. In my humble judgment, of all the bug-
bears by which this great question of education has been
impeded and checked this is ono of the moat unfounded ;
and I bel.eve, on the contrary, that no other rate would be
paid by the people at large, so cheerfully, so willingly, and
with so much satisfaction; and fur this very plain and
simple reason—that there is no rate from which the rate-
payer would derive so visible and such immediate personal
benefit to himself. (Applause.) But I have never recom-
mended what Mr. Laing calls a grand uniform centralised
system ; on the contrary, my opinion is that, looking to
the present position of this question in England, unifor-
mity is not attainable, nor is it even desirable, Whatever
we now do, we cannot, as wise men, lose sight of the ex-
isting state of things, nor of the efforts which have been
made ; and I believe the wisest and most prudent' plan in
any changes we may now make would be, not to supersede,
but to assist, complete, and to supplement the existing
state of things; and, farther, that ought to be done with
the utmost possible regard to existing feelings and facts. I
should be open to misconstruction if I concluded these ob-
servations without referring to what we hear so much about
—namely, what is called the religious difficulty. Whatever
the extent of that difficulty may be, I wish in the strongest
terms to express my deep conviction that that difficulty is
not insuperable. (Hear, hear.) I believe that the true,
moderate, and wise view of that part of the question is to
consider, as I do consider, that there may be t wo main points
connected with it which we cannot, and must not, lose sight
of. The first is, in looking to the education of the youth of
England, every child ought to be duly and properly in-
structed in this first and greatest branch ofknowledge. The
second is, in giving this instruction, we must so arrange it
as to adhere most strictly and most rigidly to theprinciple
of perfect toleration, so that no violence shall be done tolthe
religiousbelief of any denomination of Christians. Provided
these two conditions are strictly and securelyguarded, I con-
fess that I am myself disposed to adopt whatever system I
thought would be the most generally acceptable and the
most likely to procure igeneral public support. (Loud
applause.) No doubt there ale difficulties in this and in
other parts of the subject. But can you mention to me
any question of great public interest within your recollec-
tion that was free from difficulty ? The emancipation of
Roman Catholics was full of difficulty, but it was done ;
Parliamentary reform was full of difficulties, but it was
done ; that question in which you took so much interest,
the adoption of free trade and the repeal of the corn laws
was full of difficulty, and that was done; the reformation
of our laws for the relief of the poor was a matter of ex-
treme difficulty, and it baffled Parliament for years, but
it was done ; and so must this be done. But don't expect
this can be done by the individual efforts of independent i
members of Parliament. When I introduced my bill last I
yearlaw . I A
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api presumeda
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oted
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[PRICE 4D. STAMPED 5171.

gestion of sound principles ; and this, which I hope I suc-
ceeded in doing, was taking a great question out of the
category of what are called " party subjects." When
Lord John Russell, one of the meat eminent members of
our Legislature, acting as an independent member of Par-
liament, brought this subject forward in the very last ses-
sion, all he alined at was to pass resolutions which might
lay down the principles for future legislation. No; this
subject can only be settled—and I believe it will be so set-
tled— when the Ministers of the Queen shall determine to
gra:.ple with it with 'courage and with determination.
In the meantime much depends upon public opin-
ion. I, for one, rely, and I rely with great confi-
dence, upon the ultimate result of the good sense and good
feeling of the people of England. Any Minister who
shall hereafter be able to say that he bas enabled every man
in England to lave a sound elementary education—that he
has enabled every citizen of this great country to learn his
duty to God and to his Sovereign, and to cultivate his intel-
-I,.ctual faculties, and so raise himself iu his social position
to whateverexten Ulm capacity which God hasgiven him may
permit—any Minister who shall be able to say that will be
entitl, d to the gratitude of his countrymen, and to the ad-
miration of posterity. (Applause.) I believe, I will hope,
let us all hope, that the day is not distant when her Ma-
jesty's Ministers, in the name of our gracious Sovereign,
way propose measures for the accomplishment of this great
and noble object; and whenever that day may arrive I, '
for one, will not believe that Parliament will refuse its
support ; I will not believe that the Parliament of England
will then be slow to recognise that great principle enunci-
ated in those eloquent words which you have already heard
to-night—" The people want knowledge, and it must be
given them."
The right hon. baronet resumed his seat amid prolonged
applause. His address occupied nearly two hours.
A vote of thanks was passed to Sir J. Pakington for his
address, and another to the chairman.

THE 3ALLOT.

TO THE EDITOR OE THE SUN.

SIR, —Will you favour me by inserting in your piper
the accompanying letter, addressed to the editor of the
Times.—l am, &c,,

. .
F. HENRY F. BERKELEY.
Victoria-square, Nov. 19.

TO THE EDITOR OF THE TIMES.

Victoria-square, Nov. 18.
Sir,—lf the ballot be like unto a mangy fox, still the
fox is a beast of venerie, and has a right, even when
icdisposed, to be hunted down by a fair sportsman and a
thorougi .tired pack of hounds, and not to be pulled down
by a vulpicide aided by a sharp-bitten shepherd's cur.
Now my regret is, that the Times has ever employed
the sharp-bitten cur, and not a fair pack of hounds, in
attempting to worry the ballot fox, and the shepherd's
cur on this occasion halts so lamentably that he cannot
catch it. In the first place, allowme to ask, what credit
it is that I should redeem with reformers? The Times,
of course, never shifts ifs course, never wheels about,
never one moment brings its tremendous power to bear,
with the determination to lower and crush, and in the
next moment uplifts its most dulcet notes to raise and
encourage ; the Times, of course, has nothing to redeem
—its political character is spotless as snow.
The Times never contradicts itself, and standing
proudly conscious in its own position of unerring judg-
ment, honest principle, and unity of purpose, it can af-
ford to rail at less perfection. Still the Times, as it is
great and virtuous, shtuld be just. During eighteen
years I am not aware of ever having had a single vote or
a single sentiment to recall, ,nor have 1 ever lost any
credit which it is necessary to redeem. In that respect
hope humbly, but confidently, that I am at least equal
to the Times ; but since that great organ has decided
thatll am "a very conservative of conservatives" on all
practical questions, I would respectfully commend this
discovery to my friends, the conservatives of Bristol, who
as yet have not become so enlightened. I pass now from
the personality of the Times to its attempt at argument,
and I find that it consists in the reiteration of an asstr
Lion which a reference to "Hansard" will show to have
been utterly knocked to pieces. The English people,

forsooth, are so loose of counsel that they cannot con-
ceal that which it would be ruin to divulge. This garru-
lous people manage to conceal from those who could or
would make a bad use of them, the secrets of their
business and other important matters—not to mention
the minor secrets of Masonry, Odd.fellowship, Forestry,
Druidism, and other secret institutions. A man's ♦ote
is, according to the Times, the one thing he cannot
keep to himself. Chatterers can conceal the ♦otes they
give in clubs, and in the election of every conceivable
officer for every conceivable place, but they cannot con-
ceal their votes for members of Parliament ! Is such a
miserable farrago of nonsense worthy of the great ability
of the Times ? Can you urge nothing better than that 1
Stick to your cur with its sharp teeth of sarcasm and
ridicule, for when you try at sophistry on this subject,
as I have often pointed out, you fail. Who in England
is so glad of the protection of secresy and irresponsi-
bility as the Times? Who would be tempted to write
your clever and severe articles without the protection of
that principle which is solely and entirely the principle
of the ballot I When your writers make an onslaught on
the Limos, Cardigans, or Vanes ; when they apply lan-
guage beyond that admitted by the allowance of society
to individuals, are not they glad to seek the protection
of secresy—that protection which you deny to the
elector ? I am the last man to object to this protec-
tion for the writers in the press, but the elector's duty
is eptally onerous, and he has an equal right to be
cared for. I find the following able argument on this
subject in a speech made lately at Liskeard by- the vice-
chairman of the Ballot Society :—" Who is the Times?
What is the Times The Times is the secret work of a
few unknown men. Not, one reader of it in a hundred
knows the names of the men who write in it. Not cue
a thousand knows who wrote any particular article•.
This is a secret, irresponsible power, and is it there-
fore to be condemned ? No, the welfare of the people
requires the iudependence of the press. The indepen-
dence of the press requires that its writers be unknown ;
and just as the welfare of the people requires the inde-
pendence of Parliament, the independence of Parliament
requires that the constituencies be independent, and iu
order that the constituencies be independent it is neces-
sary that the votes of the electors be secret and un-
known." The cases are alike, and the parity of reasoning
unanswerable.

As regards the assertion that the ballot is a failure in
Ameriea, the Times only condescends to repeat its former
assertion. Now I have completely answered all the
Times has ever said on this subject—vide " Hansard"
for 1846 and 1847 ; and last session I have shown, by
the evidence of distinguished Americans, that wherever
the ballot is preserved in its integrity in that country it
is perfectly successful, and is accompanied by purity of
election and perfect order, as in Holland, Belgium, Swit
zerland, and Sardinia, but that in those states of Ame-
rica where the ballot is loosely maintained exactly the
reverse is found to be the case. Tee pro-slavery party
in America have made every attempt to defeat purity
of election by upsetting the vote by ballot, tichich alone
protects the abolitionists of slavery in giving their votes,
and the absence of which would compel thousands to
give a false vote or submit to Lynch law. With this
evidence already before the public, and more which I
have access to and trust to make known, I cin venture
to meet the assertion of the Tim's by a direct contradic
tion, and to assert that recent events have strongly im-
pressed all good Americans with the necessity not only
of maintaining, but of further protecting the inviolability
of this glorious institution, The letters of your Atm•
rican correspondent I have carefully read ; they du not
bear out your assertion that every man's vote is known
in America. Neither, do I apprehend, was your cor-
respondent present at the elections in each of the 31
states of the union ; the system of ballot is different in
nearly every State, and before you can assume the um-
ver,,al failure of the ballot in America you must give
more exact information. New York, from which the
letter in Tue,day's Times was date's, has of all States
the most 1 )ose and imperfect system of ballot. While
alluding t) foreign countries I invite your attention to
the evidence from Beium, which I inclose,. and which I
shall feel obliged by your inserting with this letter.
One last word, sir. I really do not think thizt I neel
free myself from tl e charge of being a conservative and
of wishing to keep everything as it is, becau:e I desire
the cathedral service of the Church o England to he re-
tainel in its purity and integrity. We have luckily at the
present moment organists appointed to cathedrals who are
scientific inusicians, and lay clerks among wnoin there
are some of the best English vocalists. The boys of
our cathedral choirs have a rigid musical educ .tion, aan
the choir itself has beautifully devotional and difficult
music to perform, which would be utterly ruity_al if al-
lowed' to be joined in by the unlearned squalling of
charity children or amateur psalm singers. The same
sort of effect would be produced if the ladies and gentle-
men in the stalls of the opera put in some finishing vocal
touches to Viardot or Mario. The Times may consider
me remiss in opposing such reforms, and may think the
introduction of a gentleman with a bassoon and a male
and female choir of charity children a desirable reform
in our cathedral service ; I confess I am on that point
conservative enough to desire to hear a good organ
played by a scientific organist, with 14 choir of well-in-
structed singers, and I believe such to be more devo-
tional in its effects ; but there is no accounting for
tastes.—l am, &c,, F. HENRY F. IERKELEY.

sir,.—The society formed for the purpose of pro-
curing the establishment, at elections for members of
of the English Parliament, of ;voting in secret, or by
ballot, :ire anxious to obtain information as to the
reasons for establishing secret voting in Belgium, and
its operation in that country. The society have seen,
the Co'mnientary on the Electoral Laws of Belgium,
of which, you are the author. That work has convinced
them that you are the most proper person to whom to
apply for the information they seek, and they have direc-
ted me, as their secretary, to address to you this letter.
" Your position, sir, as author of a work of such autho-
rity as y our 'Commentary' will, I hope, be accepted as
sufficient apology for the trouble I give you.
" You are no doubt aware that the friends of the
liberty and independence of electors desire the establisla
merit of secret voting, or the ballot, to prevent electors
being unduly influenced in the use of their suffrage by
their employers, creditors, landlords, and other persons
OD whom they may be dependent.
•
"Our society believe that, for the same reeecr, the

articles 24 to 34 of Title 3d of the Belgian constitution
were adopted. Permit me therefore, sir, to inquire—
" Were those articles of the Belgian constitution i
adopted to give electors the power of voting freely and !
indifferently for tl e persons they think fit to be their
representatives I
" 2. Are those articles found to secure the freedom
and independence of the electors ? . ....
"3. Is the secret vote, or ballot, considered by the
electoral body of Belgium an important institution I
"I trust you will pardon this intrusion of strangers
on you, and receive the assurance of the high consider-
ation of our society, and of, sir,
" Your very obedient servant,
" WILLIAM WICHLIAY, Hon. Sec.
"A Monsieur Bivort."
M. Bivort's reply is as follows :
"Sir,—l am much flattered by the honour you have
done me in resorting to my poor assistance, and I wilt
endeavour to reply to the questions you have submitted
to me in the name of your society.
" These questions are as follows :
" 1. What is the intention which directed the arrange-
nients which are the objects of articles 29. 32, and other
articles of the Belgian Electoral Law of 1831 ?
"2. Do these arrangements fulfil the end for which
they were designed ?
"3. Do the Belgian people value the securities pro-
vided by these arrangements ?
"In securing the secresy of voting, the legislature
desired in the first place to shelter the elector from the
influence of the rich and the great. Iu the next place
it wisbed to shelter him from the vengeance of party
spirit, and from a power which would be tempted not to
recognise the freedom of election. For the purpose of
better securing the independence of the elector, the Le-
gislature has enacted, by article 19 of the constitution
(I would rather say of the Electoral Law), that the elec-
tions shall take place in the chief towns of the cantons,
but in the chief towns of the administrative arrondisse-
ments, where the electors ere less exposed to local
i: fluences.
"The foregoing arrangements are amongst us consi-
dered sufficient to secure the independence of electors.
"The Belgians set great value on this precious shield;
for the good composition of the Legislative Chambers
depends entirely on the free choice of the electors.
Without this freedom of voting it would not be possible
to obtain as real national representation.
" I sincerely desire that my answers may be satisfac-
tory, and I place myself entirely at your disposal for all
other information or advice which you may think -fit to
ask of me.
"I beg you will accept the assurance of my high eon•
sideration.

"J. B. BIVORT,
" Chief of the Division of Communal and De-
partmental Administration in the Ministry
of the Interior, Brussels.
" May 10, 1856."

IRSLAINID.

DUBLIN, Nov. 19.

Although the frightful murder at the Midland Great
Western Railway terminus still continues shrouded in
mystery, there is no want of activity on the part of the
police and others engaged in investigating the circum-
stances ; and the public excitement caused by this terrible
crime has suffered no diminution. Several persons,
whose testimony was expected to throw some light on
the case have been examined, and police constables
have been despatched to the country in all directions
in search of information. Mr. Semi:is (Crown Soli-
citor) and several of the directors of the railway were
busily engaged during yesterday in holding an investi-
gation, which was strictly private. We have been
informed that the friends of the deceased have
sent to London for Field, the celebrated detecti►e,
who will arrive in town to-morrow. It has been
ascertained that the money taken away by the mur-
derers amounted to 3601., principally in gold. It is
stated that the following, important fact has been dis-
covered by the poiice:— On the evening of the murder, a
short time before Mr. Little should have left, two gen-
tlemen went into the cash office for the purpose of get-
ting the change of a 1001. note, and while waiting for it
they observed a strange looking man standing outside
the counter. On getting their change they left the office,
the man above referred to remained. It is expected that
the proposed portion of the canal will be fully drained
and cleared this morning, when careful and trustworthy
men will be employed in exploring the canal, with a
view of discovering the weapon or weapons used by the
murderer, as it is deemed probable that, after perpetrat-
ing the act, the assassin threw his weapon or weapons
into the water for concealment. A rumour prevailed
throughout town last evening that a man had been ar•
rested by ,the police on suspicion of being connected
with the perpetration of this revolting murder; but after
making strict and careful inquiry, we could find no real
grounds for such rumour. Mr. Kemmis, Crown solidi-,
tor, was engaged up to half-past ten o'clock last night in
holding a private investigation, which will be resumed
this day. Up to a late hour last night no intelligence had
been received from the police who had been sent to pro-
secute inquiries in the country districts. In the earlier
part of yesterday hundreds of persons visited the room
in which the murder was perpetrated, and a great many
took away portions of the hair which had been cut off
the bead of the deceased by the doctors, when making
the post mortem examination. In the neighbourhood
the portion of the canal now reafy to be drained, viz.,
from the canal harbour to the first lock, a large crowd
was collected, watching the proceedings of the work-
men.

A wing of the Richmond Bridewell was destroyed by
fire yesterday morning, the fames baying made their
appearance shortly after midnight. It is supposed that
the conflagration commenced in the bakehouse, over
which was situated the chapel, which, as well as some
store rooms, was completely gutted by the fire. It was
necessary to remove a portion of the adjoining roof, in
order to keep the flames from spreading, and, by extra-
ordinary exertions, and the aid of several fire-engines,
they were fortunately confined to the portion of the
building in which they first broke out. The deputy-
governor (Delany), who was at the time in charge of the
prison, exerted himself to the utmost, and several of the
prisoners behaved in a most praiseworthy manner, one
of them especially, having done a great deal towards
subduing the fire. A company of the Royal Artillery,
with their engine, afforded efficient aid on the occasion.
Jt is supposed that the damage done amounts to about
jl,OOO/.
arguments in the Tipperary Bank case were re-
sumed yesterday in the Court of Chancery, Mr. Brew-
ster, Q.C., having replied on behalf of the official ma-
nager, aud contended that it was impossible that the
act 33d Genrgt' 11. could apply to such a case as this,
as had been argued by Mr. Whiteside on the previous
day, inasmuch as the Legislature could not have con-
templated a state of things which could not under the
then state of the law have existed, for it was not until
the 6th George IV. that it was possible for any person
whatever to become shareholders in joint-stock banks.
Mr. Edwards was then examined by leave of the court.
He stated that he was in the employment of Mr. Hone
for 11 years, at a salary of 130/. a year ; that he did not
pay anything for the shares which were transferred to
him by Mr. Hone in 1847 ; that be did not keep any of
the dividends on them from 1847 to 1854, but that they
were his own property when they were transferred to
Doyle ; that he bad no idea who Doyle was, but that
he was living in London, and that his name was in the
transfer deed when it was brougizt up to witness. Tito
case was then adjourned to this day.

WEDNESDAY EVENING.
THE MURDER, OF MR. LITTLE.--IMPORTANT
DISCLOSURES.

The draining of the canal commenced at an early
hour this morning. Up to 2 o'clock this day no-
thing was found except a carriage lantern belong-
ing to the company ; but shortly after that hour,
Mr. Crofton and Mr. Kiunear, two gentlemen con-
nected with the Dublin corporation, happening to
be standing looking at the operation of the work-
men, observed a piece of wood appearing above the
water which remained in the 'basin to the depth of
two or three inches. They directed the attention
of the men to the object, and a search having been
made it was found that the wood was the handle
of a hammer, the head of which was embedded in
the mud. On being brought to the bank an exa-
mination of the instrument took place, when it
was ascertained that it was an engineer's hammer,
about 18 inches in length, the head being rather
weighty, and having a highly polished broad face
on one Aide and a smaller and angular one at the
other. Thu wood of the handle at about two
inches from the bead showed a crack whichex
tended for a short distance lower down ; this would
y blow,
appear to have bae.o. caused by a very
which
struck, but ra, tiler fell slantino
in which the head (did not fall directlyhoenahvythe sur-
facebeen struck
whatever object was Ili itended to bare means the handle mt ist have coinehalairocYo'ntaot with
by the blow. The optentangled in it.
dent marks of having ?a, uni.asnible
on the head of
crack bore en-
Human hair was also ning
discovery is looked upon
the hammer itself. This'i ,
0,
and from what we
as of the utmost imports;
ci
are satisfied that the
ofhair
have been able to gather
rack of the murderer.
police are at length ontht(l3
in having proceeded
asshasnmer was found goes
leads to the belief that he
vet the boundary
ana
through ta'lo car gate on the
rutroph re
theeill t u
railway,t positionh e ideaiu
which
ho
if
c 'ht
1 1
either found hisway
theldroadstone-bash 12 into the water
wall adjoining t
e the hammer,
ylatform or oN
if r,,lat should turn
egress side of h
of which he threw
out to be (which is now very probalile) one of the
was perpe-
trated.
instrument
with which themurder

WATERFORD, WEVNESDAY.
FRIGIETFUL RAILWAY ACCIDENT.

A fearful collision took place this das,. The
Dublinday mail, via Kilkenny, ran into a, ballast
train.
Sig
peopbe are supposed to have beets killed
and several severely injured.

The aas of 'rat low says that the Emperor Alexander
11. has been recorn mended by his medical advisers to
avoid exertion for It. o. me time, and that his Majesty will
therefore not quit Rua isia this season. It is eonfirtned that
the Grand Dukes, his- brothers, are to join their august
mother at Nice.
The final examination
in the School of Mathematiesl
and Physical Science at 10xford will commence on the
2d December,