The Sun.
London, England, 1860-07-20 00:00:00

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thought they should have a well-constituted commission
for inquiry into the whole of this subject.
Lard C. PAGET said there was no scheme for bettering
the condition of the navy which could not be found fault
with. There were always cases of hardship just above or
below the line that might be drawn. He supposed that
that was the real reason why he himself had never brought
before the house any scheme of his own. There was no
occasion to deal with the admirals, but as to captains, pro-
motion was almost at a stand-still, but, in the event of war,
he would propose that the old admirals should retire. He,
however, could not in time of peace propose to put such
officers as Lord Dundonald on the retired list. Nature
would clear the flag list. Those officers had served them
in war, and it would be cruel, unjust, and unnecessary to
remove them. (Hear.) He could not consent to put Coast
Guard officers upon the same footing as sea-going officers.
He was perfectly willing to admit that some difficulty existed,
but there was no truth in the statement that any officer's
pay was cut down. The scheme proposed that any man
arriving at the age of 60, and who had not served for a
certain number of years, should retire on half pay. He be-
lieved the effect of the whole plan would be to place young
men in active service, which was a most important consi-
deration. The pay of the surgeons was increased by the
right hon. gentleman, but other officers felt themselves ag-
grieved by that proceeding, and the present Government
had to apply a remedy.

Sir J. PAKINGTON denied that he referred in his ob-
servations to his own scheme, for he had not said a vord
en the subject. While he was in office he had to devote
the greater part of his attention to making up the deficien-
cies of the preceding Government. A good Reform Bill
was, however, required last year, in consequence of which
he bad to leave the Admiralty, and had not therefore time
to carry out a scheme he had prepared.
Sir F. T. BARING thought the scheme proposed by the
noble lord the Secretary to the Admiralty a good one, and
of which he approved. To his mind the scheme touched
that which was required, and he did not think that any
commission could find a scheme that would work well,
whether in war or peace ; and, more important still, in the
transition from a state of war to peace. It was said it would
be.well to reduce the number of captains down to 350, but
they had now got them down to 350, and therefore the shoe
no longer pinched in that respect. Generally speaking, he
thought the scheme was a goodune, although, of course, he
could pick holes in it.
Sir C. NAPIER said no good reason whatever had been
given why full justice should not be done to the mates.
The hon. and gallant admiral then adverted to that part of
the noble lord's scheme relating to post captains.
Mr. WARRE said he should be very glad to hear why
the memorial of the officers on the reserved list had not
received the attention to which it, was entitled by the Ad-
miralty.
Mr. CONINGHAM was of opinion that the claims of
the officers of the navy ought to receive all the considera-
tion to which they were entitled. With regard to the ser-
vice of officers of the Coast Guard, less was known than
was desirable. He was no advocate for lavish expenditure.
(Divide, divide.) lion. members were impatient, and it was
ever the case in that house when a gross job was to be done.
(Oh, oh.) He must say that the officers were deprived most
unfairly of the advantages to which they were entitled for
their services; and, with regard to the lieutenants, to the
shame of the Admiralty be it said, they were worn out by
disappointment and unrequited services.
Lord C. PAGET explained that only those officers were
intended to retire who had attained the age of 60 without
serving in their then rank. With regard to what the hon.
baronet the member for Portsmouth had said concerning re-
served captains, that they had as good a claim as captains
on the active list, he could only say that if he had heard
his right hon. colleague's speech on the subject, he must be
impressed with the view that they were not entitled to rise
pari passu with captains on the active list. If they could
show length of service they should certainly be compen-
sated.
Sir J. ELPHINSTONE remarked that the officers he
referred to had been juggled out of their fair rights.
The vote was then agreed to.
The next was a vote of £33,000 for officers, seamen, and
marines serving in China.
Mr. B. COCHRANE expressed his opinion that the
allowance was illiberal, and moved that the chairman report
pr ogress.
Lord C. PAGET said that the army employed in China
enjoyed advantages over those employed elsewhere, not in
pay, however, but in the reduction of stoppages. The
allowance of provisions was also more liberal, and equal,
he understood, to 2d. a day. They proposed to give to
the sailors and marines an allowance equal to that for a
year. He admitted that it was not equal to the soldier's
allowance for the 18 months consumed in the operations at
Canton; but it should be remembered that the privations
of soldiers in a campaign were greater than those of the
navy. The navy could not be considered to have an equal
claim. The allowance already granted was exclusive of the
Canton booty. He could not state with distinctness the
sums that would be granted to the navy, but all he could
undertake to say on the part of the Government was, that
the allowance should be liberally and generously made.
Sir C. NAPIER gave notice that on the bringing up of
the report he should divide the house on the vote relating
to the reserved list, as he considered that an unfair proce-
dure had taken place when the question was put. He cer-
tainly said " No," and mean it.
Sir J. PAKINGTON could not agree that there was any
unfair procedure in the case, so far as the chairman was
concerned, but he thought at the same time, that when the
question had been once put, and an answer given implying
that a division should take place, it ought not to be put
again.

Lord PALMERSTON said the point was a purely tech-
nical one, and the rules of the house ought to be adhered to.
The fact was, that it was not sufficient for a member to say
" No," to call for a division, without pressing his opposi-

tion.
The CHAIRMAN said the object of the Speaker and the
Chairman of Committees was to ascertain the opinion of the
house, and the question was always put in such a manner
as to elicit that opinion.
The vote was then agreed to, and the resolutions were
reported to the house.
The house then resumed.
In answer to a question from Lord J. MANNERS,
Lord PALMERSTON said that no civil service estimates
would be taken to-morrow evening.
PRISONS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
This bill, as amended, was considered.
The London Corporation Bill was postponed.
The Herring Fisheries (Scotland) Bill, as amended, was
considered.
The Militia Ballot Bill was read a second time.
The Tenure and Improvement of Land (Ireland) Bill
was read a third time.
The Heritable Securities (Scotland) Bill passed through
committee.

GUNPOWDER BILL.
This bill was read a second time,
The house then went into committee on the Clearance
Inwards and Lien for Freight Bill.
The bill passed through committee.
Tho Local Government Act (1858) Amendment Bill
passed through committee.
The Railways Act (Ireland 1851) Amendment Bill
passed through committee.
The Volunteer Ride Corps Bill was read a second time.
The other orders were disposed of, paid the house ad-
journed at a quarter past two o'clock.

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