The Sun.
London, England, 1860-06-12 00:00:00

EDUCATION IN INDIA.

The Duke of MARLBOROUGH presented numerous
petitions from Carlisle and Sunderland, praying that the
Bible might be introduced into any scheme for educating
the natives of India.

THE CLOCK IN THE HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT.

The Earl of DERBY said he had a question to ask, of
which he had not given notice, but he hardly knew to
which of her Majesty's Ministers he ought to put it. The
Lord Chancellor had, however, paid particular atten-
to the subject, and he had no doubt could answer the
question —he alluded to the great clock in the
houses of Parliament. (Laughter.) For some time the
clock had ceased to announce the hour of day, but this was
not all, for it had ceased to possess the necessary adjuncts
of hands upon one of its faces. :(Laughter.) On one
side, however, the hands stood stock-still, and pointed
most steadily to the hour of twelve. As to striking it ap-
peared that it had been altogether given up, but he did
hope that something would be done to make the clock per-
form duty, for which it was intended. (Laughter.)
The LORD CHANCELLOR said the noble lord ought
to have given notice of his question. (Loud laughter.)
The clock was not in the Court of Chancery ; if it it
would be made to move a little faster. (Laughter.) He
had no power over the unruly piece of mechanism, and
therefore he could not give the noble earl any answer to his
question.

The Earl of DERBY said he should like to know if the
clock was to remain standing for the remainder of the ses-
sion ? (Loud laughter.)

Earl GREY thought that a great many persons would
agree with him when he stated that he greatly rejoiced
when it was discovered that Big Ben was cracked. (Laugh-
ter.) He sincerely trusted that no further attempt would
be made to make the clock speak again in those awful tones,
which had become a source of annoyance to the surround-
ing neighbourhood. They at present had the clock in
the Abbey, that in St. Margaret's Church, and that of the
Horse Guards, to announce the hour. These, in all con-
science, appeared to him quite sufficient for one parish.
(Laughter.) The subject then dropped.
The Ecclesiastical Courts and Registries (Ireland) Bill
was read a second time.

The Church Temporalities (Ireland) Acts Amendment
Bill was read a second time.

REFRESHMENT HOUSES AND WINE LICENSES

BILL.

On the motion for the third reading of this bill,

Lord MONTEAGLE expressed a hope that this mea-
sure would lead to an alteration of the whole system of
licensing. He wished to know the amount of drawback
that would be payable on the wine in this country, at the
time of the passing of the resolutions of the House of Com-
mons ; also, whether any negotiations were going on with
a view to obtain from Spain and Portugal reductions of
'duty on •ur manufacthres ; and also whether the revenue
derived from malt and hops was likely to be affected by the
increased consumption of wine.

Lord DENMAN remarked on the opening to fraud which
the bill would afford by multiplying the number of so-called
refreshment houses. He anticipated that the increased
facilities for the sale of wine would seriously affect the con-
sumption of beer. The result would be to alter the charac-
ter of the people of this country, and introduce habits of
idleness aid dissipation. He moved that the bill be read a
third time that day six months.

The Earl of DONOUGHMORE supported the amend-
ment. The bill ought to have been separated into two parts

—one imposing new license duties—the other relating to
police regulations; but the Chancellor of the Exchequer
had refused to do so.

Lord REDESDALE said there could be no doubt what-
ever that this was a supply bill; and no doubt whatever
that several clauses of the bill were suchas this house, if it
stood on its strict rights, might reject or amend, such as, for
instance, the 40th and 41st clauses, which related to police
regulations. But he for one was not prepared to support
any such course of proceeding in this case, thinking as he
did that the regulations were salutary ones; at the same
time he thought it right, as the subject had been mentioned
in the house, to call the attention of the Government to the
point.

Earl GRANVILLE said it was very far from the inten-
tion of the Government to interfere with the right of their
lordships to entertain or discuss any of these questions. It
so happened, however, that the clauses in question had
been introduced at the suggestion of a Secretary of State in
the late Government, and to the most important amend-
ment that had been suggested he thought a majority of
their lordships were not disposed to agree.
The house then divided upon Lord Denman's amend-
ment, and the numbers were—. _

Contents
Non-contents -34
The bill was then read a third time and passed.
SIR JOHN BARNARD'S ACT, &c., REPEAL BILL.
This bill was read a third time and passed.
Their lordships adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(YESTERDAY.)
The SPEAKER took the chair at four o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.

The Lords' amendments to the following bills were con-
sidered and agreed to. The bills were ordered for third
reading :—Buckley and Connah's Quay (Flintshire) Rail-
way ; Cheshire Midland Railway ; Hinckley and Leicester
Railway ; London and South-Western and Bristol and
Exeter Railway Companies ; Manchester Corporation
Water; Stourbridge Railway ; Wellington (Salop) Water;
and Maidstone Water.

The following bills were read a third time and passed :
Caledonian Railway (Lesmahagow Branches, &c.), Dublin
(City) Steam Packet Company, and Macclesfield Gas.
The following bills were considered and ordered:for third
reading :—Caithness Roads, Cork and Limerick Direct
Railway, Letterkenny Railway, London and South-Western
(Kingston Railway Extension, &c.), Montrose and Berrie
Railway, Swansea Harbour Trust, and Waterford and
Limerick Railway (No. 2).
MR. LEATHAM AND THE BOROUGH OF
WAKEFIELD.

Mr. BRIGHT presented a petition from Mr. Leatham,
tke late member for Wakefield, setting forth that he had
given full and correct evidence before the commission ap-
pointed to inquire into the corrupt practices alleged to have
taken place at the election for the borough of Wakefield
when he was a candidate, and that he had received a certi-
ficate from the commissioners which should have exempted
him from any legal proceedings in consequence of the
said evidence, notwithstanding which criminal proceed-
ings were being instituted against him. The petition
further stated that such a course was against all
principle of justice, as 12 months had elapsed since the
alleged offence with which he was charged had taken place,
and praying the house for protection. The hon. member
read the petition, which was rather a voluminous document,
and it was ordered to lie on the table.

THE REFORM BILL AND THE PAPER DUTY.
Mr. BRIGHT presented a petition, numerously signed,
from the city of Gloucester, praying for the passing of the
Reform Bill, and against the conduct of the Lords in re-
jecting the bill for the repeal of the paper duties.
GARIBAL DI.

Lord J. RUSSELL laid on the table of the house fur•
ther correspondence relative to General Garibaldi.
NATIONAL GALLERY.

Mr. G. C. BENTINCK moved for return of all pic-
tures purchased for the National Portrait Gallery, specify-
ing the price paid for each picture, the date of purchase, the
name of the person from whom purchased, &c.—Ordered.
GAME LICENSES.
In reply to Mr. KEKEWICH,
The CHANCERROR of the EXCHEQUER said that
he proposed to leave the law as it stood with respect to
rabbits, and it was not intended to introduce any alteration
other than that stated in the resolutions.
CORPORATION OF LONDON I'EFORM BILL.
In reply to Mr. E. JAMES,
Sir G. C. LEWIS said that no intimation of an intention
on the part of the government to withdraw this bill had
been given, and he heard of such for the first time from the
hon. and learned member for Marylebone. (Laughter.)
It was his intention to proceed with the bill.
WITHDRAWAL OF THE REFORM BILL.
On the order being read for resuming the adjourned de-
bate on going into committee,
Lord J. RUSSELL rose and spoke • as follows :—ln
I rising to address the house upon this question I must in the
first place say that it is impossible for the Goyerament to

accede to the motion of my hon. friend the member for Rye
(Mr. Mackinnon), and it would be most inconvenient to
the house itself, if, in deciding upon the (lineation of a re-
form bill, they were to fix a time to which it should be post-
poned, or if they were to commit themselves to any such
motion as that before the house. I trust, therefore, my
hon. friend will not persist in his amendment. But I have
a further statement to make to the house with respect to
proceeding with this bill, and in doing so I beg to say that
it is not my wish to excite any hostility in this debate, or to
refer more than in passing to what took place the other
evening. On that evening my noble friend stated the case
in favour of this bill being passed and against any delay,
'and I do not wish to abate a single word from what my nobl
friend said on that occasion ; but having said this much it
is not necessary for me to repeat any arguments used on
the former occasion on the part of the Government. It M
known to the house that 250 members have declared for the
postponement of this bill during the present session. I say
the postponement of the bill, because if we had taken a dif-
ferent line, and said we go on not only with the English
bill but with the Scotch and Irish bills, it would have been
said as strenuously, and to my mind with greater force,
" You cannot expect to carry these three bills, but you may
carry the English bill ; but if you attempt to carry the three
bills for the representation of the people, it is obvious there
will not be time for the performance of the duty." I say
there were 250 members who voted for the affirmation of
the proposition of my hon. friend, and that being so the
Government thought themselves bound to consider seriously
bee position of the question, and what was their duty to
the house and the country. I must say that I think if we
are not ofropinion that we can succeed in carrying this bill
through both Houses of Parliam nt in the present session
it would be idle, and perhaps culpable, to go into committee
for some four or five nights, and make the delays which
would arise in committee a reason for abandoning the bill.
("Hear, hear," from the Ministerialists.) The position,
then, is this : We have not on the 11th of June gone into
committee; that on the 7th of June there were 250 mem-
bers who voted for the postponement of the measure, and
that there are some 60 or 70 amendments proposed fur the
consideration of the house in committee. It cannot be ex-
pected that all these amendments would be discussed. The
question of the representation of the people in parliament
is a very large one, and in the discussion of the bill before
the house there is no great objection to the introduction of
any topic immediately connected with the representation of
the people, for the arguments iion one point of the bill
bear upon another—as for instance those with regard to the
franchise, the distribution of seats, and other subjects,
though not contained in the bill, belong to the question of
the representation of the people. It would, therefore, be a
matter which must take a considerable time. But then if
we were able to command all the time from the 11th of June
to what may be presumed the time for the usual close of
the session, I should then say that it was our duty to pro-
ceed with the bill, and even at a late period propose it for
the consideration of the other house of parliament. It hap-
pens however that there are other questions which must be
considered, and some of them would be interposed during
the progress of this bill through committee. These are
questions which have arisen very recently—questions with
regard to supply, which depend upon the news received
from China, and which puts an end to all hope that our
dispute with the Chinese can be settled without hostilities;
and, therefore, the house will have to consider what sup-
plies are necessary for the operations of the army and navy
now in the Chinese seas ; also the ways and means which
may be required for obtaining those supplies. There is
another question which my noble friend mentioned the
other night, viz., the question which will arise out of the
consideration of the report of the committee appointed to
inquire into the defences of the country, and no one will
pretend that these questions arising out of the China war
and those in reference to the defences of the country will
allow of the Goverement postponing them, they being ques-
tions of great urgency and magnitude. Well, then, consi-
dering the question whether we should go through commit.
tee with the Reform Bill, we came to the conclusion that
though there might be a probability of our going through
committee and obtaining the assent of the House of Com-
mons in the various amendments in the time to be devoted
to the measure, yet there is a further objection, vii., if we
were not able to carry the bill into a legislative act, it would
not be fair to the House of Commons to ask them to decide
any question which would thereby fetter their discretion,
and then leave the question open for another year. Well,
then, supposing that the measure could be passed through
this house in the ordinary' time of the session, it would not
be possible to carry it in such a period as to go to the House
of Lords and enable them to decide upon it. There arose a
question whether by any extraordinary means, instead of
Vie prorogation at the usual time, it would not he possible to
carry the measure this session, but I think it is evident that
important as the question is, there is not that immediate
urgency respecting it, and I may say there is not such a
demand in the country at to justify the Government to re-
sort to an extraordinary step of that kind. (Hear, hear.)
Such being the case, we have come to the conclusion which
I will state to the house, viz., that it is not our intention to
attempt further to proceed with the bill in the present ses -
sion, but I shall on the other hand propose not to proceed
with the bill. I think I should hardly be justified if I did
not refer to some other questions which may be noticed, and
perhaps against which some protest may be addressed to the
Government. It may be said that on the 4th June we asked
to go into committee, and that if we had pressed it earlier
in the session we should have obtained the opinion of the
house upon it. But upon this point I must remind the
house that the first question in the session is that in refer-
ence to the usual supplies for the army and navy, and the
Government at a very early period this year .brought for-
ward questions of the utmost importance, and not only of
the utmost importance, but of the greatest gravity. We
thought it our duty to conclude a commercial treaty with
France, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposed va-
rious measures connected with it, and which affected the
finances of the country. These were very great questions
which it would not have been right, according to our views,
to have postponed to an indefinite time, because they were
questions which, on account of their affecting the trade and
industry of the country, it was necessary to proceed with
without delay. Well, they occupied a very considerable time
in debate, and I therefore felt myself compelled to postpone
this bill until such questions had been passed through this
house. There are other questions with regard to the usual
supplies of the year, and which are not yet voted. The army
votes have not yet been granted, and there are the whole
civil service estimates to be discussed. It might be reason •
able to ask for a vote on account, but it would not be rea-
sonable to postpone the discussion on these estimates be
the early part of July. Well, these questions would
have interfered with the proceedings upon this bill, and
made it necessary to ask for delay. But, sir, there is a still
further question with regard to which I must say a few
words to the house, and that is as to the nature of the bill
before us. I think it necessary to state that the Government
were persuaded, and are persuaded, that a reduction of the

borough franchise is required for the future safety of the
State and the improvement of ths representative system.
(Cheers.) Many years ago, when I had to consider this

question, there was a member of this house (Mr. Hume)
who urged that six out of seven male adults were excluded
from the franchise, and that among those excluded there
were to be found men of intelligence and property who were
fully entitled to the exercise of the franchise. (Hear,
hear.) The argument of the hon. gentleman made a
great impression upon me, and inquiries were made as
to who were excluded, and what was the character of
the working men, and those inquiries convinced
me that many of those men possessed sufficient intelli-
gence and integrity which qualified them for the exercise
and to the right of voting. But if that were the case then
their continued and perpetual exclusion from the franchise
would be an injury to them, and their addition to it must
strengthen the basis upon which our representative institu-
tions stand. lam persuaded more than ever before that
there are great numbers of persons who would exercise the
franchise well and worthily, and, if admitted to it, that the
basis of the representative institutions of the country would
be strengthened and maintained. It is, therefore, sir, our
intention at the earliest opportunity to introduce a bill for
the reduction of the franchise, nor am I discouraged from
saying this, because more than once measures of this kind
have been obliged to be postponed. But measures of liberal
principles which are in conformity with the opinions of the
majority of the house have been frequently postponed, but
when once they have obtained the assent of Parliament
they have remained permanently enrolled among the
statutes and institutions of the country. For a long time the
sacramental test was required as a test for office, but no one
would now think of proposing the re-enactment of that test.
Then, again, the Roman Catholics were excluded from this
house and from holding office, in consequence of an oath
being required which they would not take, but no one would
attempt now to pass a measure for the exclusion of the
Roman Catholics. A Reform Bill was passed through
Parliament, and no one would now think of restoring the
boroughs which were then disfranchised. And in the game
manner I am convinced that when another reform measure
has been passed through the houses of Parliament, for the
purpose of enlarging the franchise, and extending it to per-
sons who are qualified and who have a right to vote, no one
will think of disturbing that settlement or attempt to curtail
the right so granted. (Hear, hear.) It is, therefore, with the
utmost confidence that I look forward to the introduction of
a measure for carrying those principles into effect. But
before sitting down I must ask my hon. friend to withdraw
his motion, and on that being done I will move that the
order for going into committee be discharged. (Hear.)
Mr. MACKINNON said in answer to the appeal made
to him he must congratulate the house and the country upon
the settlement of this great question. (Laughter.) He
trusted that the powerful mind and valuable time of the
noble lord would be better employed in carrying on diplo
matic relations than in devoting them to this bill. The nobl
lord might be better employed in settling the affairs of the
nations of Europe than in sitting night after night in listen-
ing to discussions on the question of the franchise. He con-
gratulated the noble lord, and he trusted his efforts as their
Foreign Minister would be attended with the greatest suc-
cess. He also trusted. that Englishmen in general would
cordially congratulate one another on the determination of
the Government ; that all recriminations would cease and be
forgotten ; and that all hon. members would be anxious to
promote the business of the country and set their shoulders
to the wheel in earnest, in order that they might make UP
for the lost time of the session is these fruitless &cm/jowl?