The Sun.
London, England, 1860-08-25 00:00:00

rrn SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, AUGUST 25, 1860.

wished to state that the report of the Commission relative
to the Post-office could not possibly be laid on the table this
session.

POOR RATES, &c.

On the motion of Mr. J. WHITE, the following return
was ordered :—That the Return 11. of male occupiers in
Parliamentary cities and borough, 124, of the present ses-
sion of Parliament, be amended so as to include the cor-
rected numbers of male occupiers at £6 and under £lO, in
certain cities and boroughs, as laid before the select com•
mittee of the House of Lords on the elective franchise on
the 6th day of June, 1860, by the Poor Law Board ; and
that the return, as amended, should contain information
arranged according to the annexed form.
GARIBALDI.

Mr. E. JAMES asked whether any official information
had been received of the landing of General Garibaldi in
Calabria, and the capture by his troops of the town of
Reggio.
Lord PALMERSTON replied in the negative.
THE AUSTRALIAN POSTAL SERVICE.
In reply to Mr. HENNESSY,
Mr. LAING said that the present Government thought
that the system of ocean postage had been pushed to an
extreme, and that it was not intended to carry out the views
of their predecessors in regard to this matter.
AUSTRIA AND NORTHERN ITALY.

Mr. BUTT referred to statements that have appeared in
the continental journals—let. That the Austrian Govern-
ment has intimated to that of Turin that they would treat
the landing of Garibaldi in the Neapolitan dominions as a
eausus belli between Austria and Northern Italy ; 2. That
Austria had engaged or tendered support to the King of
Naples, by armed" intervention, against any attempt at re-
volution ; To ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether
her Majesty's Government had received any information of
such a menace being addressed to the Court of Turin, or
such an engagement or offer having been made to that of
Naples ?
Lord PALMERSTON said that the Austrian Govern-
ment did not intend to interfere in the transactions going
on in Italy, but were determined to defend their own fron-
tiers. There was ground for supposing that any such
communication as`that alluded to had taken place.
DIVORCE COURT BILL.
This bill was read a third time and passed.
TRUSTEES AND MORTGAGEES, &c., BILL.
The amendments to this bill were considered and agreed
to, and the bill was ordered for third reading.
CONJUGAL RIGHTS (SCOTLAND) BILL.

The consideration of the Lords' reasons for disagreeing
with the Commons' amendments to this bill, which was on
the orders of the day, was postponed until to-morrow.
PUBLIC BUSINESS.

On the formal motion that the house adjourn till Mon.
day,

Mr. T. DUNCOMBE moved the following resolution as
a standing order :—" That on the question of adjournment
from Friday to Monday, all discussion shall be confined to
questions relating to the intended business of the following
week, or to matters of public urgency demanding immediate
attention." He complained of the present practice that
prevailed of bringing forward miscellaneous subjects which
were not of a pressing character on Friday, to the delay of
public business.
Sir G. C. LEWIS agreed with the hon. member (Mr.
Duncombe), but as the matter would be referred to a com-
mission, and as there was a thin attendance of members, he
considered it would not be advisable to discuss the question
at present.
After some conversation the subject dropped.
FOREIGN AFFAIRS.

Mr. KINNAIRD moved the adjournment of the house,
in order to call attention, before the session closed, to the
long-talked-of Conference of the great Powers on the sub-
ject of Savoy. The calm dignity, forbearance, and firm-
ness manifested by Switzerland with reference to the an-
nexation of Chablais, Faucigny, and Geneva, neither
seduced by promises nor shaken by menaces, had been such
as to call forth general admiration. (Hear, hear.) The
neutrality of Switzerland was guaranteed, in the interests
of peace, by all the great European Powers in 1815. Pied-
mont, be, bound herself to Switzerland by the treaty of
March hi, 1816, never to alienate the provinces in question
to any third Power. But it was a manifest absurdity to
suppose that any portion of a great empire like France could
really remain neutral, and consequently the possession of
these provinces by such an empire would be a standing
menace to the security and independence of Switzerland.
(Hear.) It was a guard against such a danger that provi-
sion was made in the treaty of 1815 for the neutrality of the
three provinces. Two things were essential to the neu-
trality of any State—the wish and the power to be so. Now,
Switzerland was weak cat the side of Savoy. A frontier
easy of defence was necessary to her existence, and on that
side she has no frontier that she could defend. The Powers
of Europe, therefore, gave her a military and strategic fron-
tier besides her political one. It was for the maintenance of
this that Switzerland appealed to the public opinion of
Europe, and he hoped that the session would not close
without an assurance from the noble lord that the Con-
ference which had been promised would speedily be held.
(Hear, hear.) It was not simply a matter of treaty but a
question ofonatural right. They all knew that these pro-
vinces were naturally connected with Switzerland, and that
all their produce and trade found an outlet at Geneva and
the canton. It was not, therefore, a question of treaty
but of natural right which had thus been aggressively
taken from them. (Hear, hear.) He believed that
Switzerland was entitled to thanks of Europe for the
manner in which she had maintained her rights. If, in
addition to great foresight, she had not acted with great
prudence and moderation, it was impossible to say what
would have been the consequences to Europe. (Hear.) It
would be in the recollection of the house that when his hon.
friend first asked the Government whether there was any
intention to annex Savoy and Nice hardly any one believed
it. They were indebted to Switzerland for first calling the
attention of Europe to this act of aggression. At the time
when the question was first put by his hon. friend he was
one who placed implicit confidence in the speech at Milan of
the Emperor of the French, and in the statement of Count
Cavour, that Sardinia would neither cede, sell, or exchange
that property which she was bound by special treaty with
Switzerland to hold. He therefore scarcely gave credence
that such an act of aggression was actually in contempla-
tion. He thought that Switzerland acted nobly in refusing
to treat alone with the Emperor of the French. Switzer-
land, putting aside her individual interests, determined not
to accept anything from the Emperor, but to stand by her
rights. He trusted that those rights would be brought be-
fore a Conference of the great Powers, and he believed it
would then be shown that might was not right, and that
there was justice in the cause and in the policy which Swit-
zerland had adopted. He did not wish to detain the house at
that period of the session. He would only say that the cir-
cumstances which had occurred, and the circumstances
which were occurring, showed that the Government ought
to be prepared for all eventualities. It was a remarkable
feet that not many months ago news came from across the
Channel that the Emperor of the French was already weary
of Italian affairs and that they would soon hear of great
events in the East. They little thought at that time how
soon the fearful massacres in Syria would follow, and how
circumstancs would arise which seemed to call on France to
occupy that country. When they looked at affairs in Italy
they must feel how important it was that England should be
prepared. He trusted that the report that Austria was about
to take active measures against the rising liberties of Italy
was untrue, and that it was, as they had hoard, the fixed in-
tention of Austria to remain, unless attacked, in the Quadri-
lateral. He hoped that those who conducted the Italian
cause would still maintain the moderation which they had
hitherto exhibited, and that nothing would happen to cause
them to regret the progress which Italian liberty had made,
and which had given the greatest satisfaction to every mem-
ber of the house and to every one in the country. (Hear.)
He wished to put the question of which he had given no-
tice—" Whether definitive arrangements had been made for
assembling the Conference proposed to be held at the in-
stance of the Swiss Confederation; and, if not, whether it
was the intention of her Majesty's Government to recognise
the annexation of Savoy and Nice as a valid act, forming
part of the public law of Europe; also, whether any other
of the five great Powers were acting in this matter in con-
junction with her Majesty's Government ?"
The SPEAKER, having put the question that the house
do now adjourn,

Mr. KINGLAKE rose and said—There was, I believe,
an understanding that before the close of the session some
opportunity should be given to us for raising a discussion on
foreign affairs, and although I cannot say, looking at the
empty state of the house, that the present opportunity is a

very promising one, I am anxious, if the house will so far in•

dulge me, to address to it a few observations on the subject.
I think it will be admitted, by her Majesty's Ministers and

by the house in general, that those who are accustomed to

take an interest in foreign affairs have not been wanting in
forbearance towards the Government, and have not been
guilty of anything like undue intrusion on the time of the

hour for we must remember that the present state of
affair n Europe is one of an unusually critical kind.
(Cheers.) I cm dially agree with every word which has
been said loy my hon. friend the member for Perth with re-

gard to the conduct of the Swiss Confederation. fam
bound to say that in the earliest stage of the transaction

which was the subject of my hon. friend's speech Switzerland

perceived the danger in which she was placed. She com-

rn unicated that danger at the earliest time to all those on

whose friendship she was entitled to count, and from that

hour to the present she has never for one moment swerved
in the earnestness of her endeavour to preserve her own

rights and to protect the true interests of Europe. (Hear.)

She has never for a moment forgotten that vital as the

question was to her the question was one of deep impor-
tance to Europe. (Hear, hear.) And, therefore, when-

ever pressed, whether by the menace or, as my lion, friend
termed it, by the cajolery of her powerful neighbour, she

has always answered that the question, though vital to her,
was also a European question, and by the great Powers of
Europe her rights and interests were to be judged. (Hear,

hear.) It is very true that this question of the annexation

of Savoy and Nice has disturbed Europe, but I must say
_ .

that it is right that it should be so, for I cannot conceive

anything more lamentable than that a great wrong of this
description should be perpetrated to the prejudice of a weak
bat deserving power such as Switzerland, and Europe
should stand by acquiescing in such a transaction. (Cheers.)
_ _ .

My hen? friend behind pae, the
,allant member for Lie-

keard, in the course of some discussion which took place on
the question of fortifications, more than once addressed to
the Government a very pregnant question. To that ques-
tion he never received any answer, because the question
was one which could be more conveniently answered or
commented upon by an independent member of Parliament
than by a Minister of the Crown. My gallant friend asked
why it was that the report of the Commissioners having
been placed in the hands of the Government so early as the
month of February no application was made to the house
to act on these recommendations until the month of July.
My answer is that between the month of February and the
month of July a momentous change took place in the state
of European affairs. I ventured, as early as the month of
February, to warn the house that when the Emperor of the
French proposed to break through the public law of Europe
he was doing that which would place us all in a new condition
—he was doing that which effected a transition, if I may so
express it, from right to might, and it became certain,
in my opinion, that if he should carry out the purpose with
which we were then menaced we should hear less of treaties
and less of negotiations, and a great deal more of fortifica-
tions, battalions, batteries, and all the implements of war.
(Cheers.) So it has turned out, and that I think is the an-
swer to the question of my hen, friend. (Hear.) The truth
is, that the annexation of these countries, even if it had been
assented to by England, would have been a very grave af-
fair, but it took place contrary to the declared recommenda-
tion of England, and when it took place, I may say, in the
teeth of the English Government, it became a transaction
of momentous importance. It took place at a time when
Parliament was sitting, and I do think that if at such a
time we had remained silent we should have been guilty of
a shameful abandonment of our duty; and I will do her
Majesty's Ministers the justice to say that I believe they
shared in that opinion. (Hear, hear.) It is natural for
Ministers to dislike being interfered with. All men in pos-
session of power naturally like to exercise it with as little
extraneous advice as possible. But her Majesty's Ministers
must do those who acted with me in these matters the jus-
tice to say, that not only did we dg right in calling the at-
tention of the house to them, but that we should have done
wrong had we failed to take that course. I will not say that
the urgency of those protests had any effect upon her Ma-
jesty's Ministers, for I believe it is a truer and more gene-
rous view of the matter to say, that they who are English-
men like ourselves were sharers, from the beginning, in
the feelings which influenced us, and that the principles we
were venturing to inculcate—if not finally adopted by them
—were inchoate in• their minds and on the point of being
adopted. Accordingly, when the 26th of March came we
had the gratification of hearing that the Government
were sharers in those opinions which we had humbly ven-
tured to urge upon them. The purport of the famous de-
claration of the 26th of Match was simply this—it an-
nounced dish est of France and the determination of Eng-
land not to keep aloof from other Powers. I recollect the
Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs pronounced these
momentous words in a significant but low tone, but all
Europe listened to what he said, and it was not long before
that important declaration produced the fruits which it was
calculated to bear. At the time that declaration was made
there was nothing like union throughout Germany, but no
sooner was it known that England was distrustful of France
and was turning to other Powers, than the States of Ger-
many not only determined among themselves that each
would separately express an inclination to turn towards Eng-
land, but their language among themselves was of the most
simple and practical kind. They said, as long as we are
disunited we are hardly worthy to proffer ourselves for
an English alliance—let us be united among ourselves, let
us be ablelo say that Germany against the foreigner will
act as one, and then we shall be in a condition to proffer to
England a German alliance. I rejoice to see that that prin-
ciple was acted on at Baden, and was carried to a comple-
tion the other day at Toplitz. If the existing state of things
is satisfactory in comparision wit& that which existed before
we owe it in part to Germany, and in part to the determi-
nation of this house, one reacting, if I may so speak, on the
other. It is a subject of congratulation that Germany is
now united ; we are entitled to take a little pride that
this house has found means in a worthy manner to
cause its opinion to be once more heard with respect in
Europe. (Hear, hear.) Anterior to the Treaty of Turin the
situation of the Emperor of the French in Europe was one of
immense weight. Germany was disunited, Russia is known
at that time to have approached, at all events, to something
like an understanding with France, and the alliance, or, at
all events, the cordial understanding which had for some
time existed between France and England had placed France
in such a position that she was relieved from all anxiety with
regard to her sea communications. The consequence was
that, being able to wield her immense military force by land
and to move as she chose by sea, France had acquired so
great an ascendancy in Europe as to cause the deepest
anxiety to all those who are accustomed to attribute im-
portance to the balance of power. (Hear, hear.) The Treaty
of Turin was signed—signed, as I have said, in defiance,
so to speak, of England. The result is that the Emperor
of the French has these provinces which he has now gone,
it is said, to visit. No doubt the Savoyard battalions
and the seaboard of Nice and the adjacent country are ac-
quisitions of great importance—no doubt, also the frontier,
menacing to Italy and menacing to Germany, is a matter
of deep importance; but, on the other hand, it is to be ob-
served that in exchange for these acquisitions the friend-
ship of England has been converted into that avowed dis-
trust which was expressed on the 26th of March in words,
and which has since been expressed still More significantly
by our armaments. (Hear.) Moreover, Germany, now
united and alarmed, is making her preparations on her
eastern frontier, and the countries more immediately bor-
dering on France—Switzerland and Belgium—have been
so thorough.), alarmed by the proceedings of the Emperor
that I think we have no reason to fear anything like lan-
guid acquiescence on their part. (Hear.) If I am en-
titled to assume, as I trust I am, that the answer of the
noble lord to the second branch of my hon. friend's
question will be such as we have a right to expect—if we are
to be told, as I trust we shall be, that although England did
not think fit to resist that annexation by force, yet she will
nevertheless decline to recognise it, then it is very important
to observe the change which is this effected in the position
of the Emperor of the French ; because, whereas he was be-
fore not merely recognised fully as an equal Sovereign, if I
may so express it, but the ally of England, now the recog-
nition of his character as Emperor of that which he consi-
i ders the French empire is, in a sense, qualified, for I trust
we shall hear that the British Government is not prepared
to do any formal act which shall amount to a recognition of
this annexation. (Hear, hear.) For instance, if it should
happen that our Consul at Nice were to die or to resign,
then I trust we may beassured that the English Government
would not ask an exequatur from the Emperor of the French
for any new consul in his place. (Hear, hear.) lam anxious
to say a few words on the subject of Syria. It was my fate
many years ago to be a traveller in that country, and one
finds that when one has become personally acquainted with
a distant country one is apt to keep up one's knowledge,
and even after a great lapse of time, one's interest in it is
frequently continued. In several discussions which have
taken place here on this subject I have heard the noble lord
at the head of the Government taunted for the part which
he took in 1840 in displacing Mehemet Ali from Syria. We
have been told that Mehemet Ali was an excellent and vi-
gorous governor who maintained order in that country, and
that we did very wrong—the gallant member for Southwark
made the observation, I think, when we took measures which
had the effect of displacing him. It is rather singular for
those who are filled with horror at the Turks and at mas-
sacres to come forward and befriend this man Mehemet Ali.
I was in that country at the time when his power was
in full force, and I say his reign was simply a reign of
terror. He was a Turk, and a Turk of the most ferocious
kind, and probably the most wicked of all the massacres
which have occurred in this country was a massacre perpe-
trated by Mehemet Ali. He invited to a banquet at his
castle all the Mamelulces of Egypt—the aristocracy of the
country—the men who had been in a rude way the deposi-
tories of the governing power, and when he had them all in
the courtyard of his castle he caused them all to be massa-
cred ; so that to the cruelty and bloodthirstiness of perpe-
trating a massacre there were added the treachery and
wickedness of a host who murders his own guests. (Hear.)
Therefore we might have been spared anything like taunts
for displacing such a man from the government of Syria.
There has been, too, a good deal of unfairness towards the
Ottoman Government in these discussions. It is impossible
to overstate the poltroonery—f .r I believe that was, in fact,
the real cause—of the wretched Turkish officers who stood
by while the horrors of which we complain were being per-
petrated ; but if we ascend higher in the chain of causation,
and ask what the causes really were, I am afraid that,
instead of being able to fix the responsibility on the
Turkish Government, it is to the Powers of Europe
that the responsibility will in a great degree attach. In
1842 or 1843, and at a time when Lord Aberdeen held
the seals of the Foreign-office, changes were pressed upon
the Turkish Government in regard to the management of
the Lebanon. First, the Porte was urged to appoint a se-
parate Kaimakan for the Druses and the Maronites, so that
in point of fact we called on the Turkish Government to

allow, not an imperiurn in inzperio, but two imperia in
impair°, those two imperia being embittered in their feeling
towards each other by a traditional hostility. (Hear.) In
the perverseness of our recommendations we did not stop
there. We required Turkey to abstain from having troops in
the mountains, so that we provided not only that these hostile
tribes should be perpetually confrontin,g each other, but that
the Ottoman Government should withdraw the very means
by which the Druses and Maronites might be prevented from
coming into conflict. Nov, surely after the European
Powers have taken upon themselves theresponsibility of in-
terfering in that way with the affairs of the Lebanan, they

• _
cannot very fairly turn round upon Turkey and accuse her of
having permitted disturbances which, in a sense, may be

traced to the advice pressed by them upon the Porte. With

regard to the immediate cause of these massacres, I desire to

abstain from expressing any opinion ; but there are two or
three circumstances which will serve as a clue, and will

enable Lord Dufferin to ascertain what I may call the final
cause of these disasters, If lam rightly informed, a vast
quantity of rifles were not long ago distributed among

the Maronites: (Hear, hear.) -Now I have never seen

one of those rifles, but, if the information which reaches me

be correct, it will turn out that they are not the rifles of

commerce, but bear upon them a stamp which shows that
they came from the Government stores of a European

country. If that ie the case, and if Lord Dufferin succeed

in sending home one or two of these rifles marked with such
a stamp, we shall have one clue to the cause of the dis-
turbances. There is another clue to which I think I may
venture to direct Lord Dufferin's attention. For a long
time there has been published at Beyrout an Arabic
newspaper. That newspaper contains articles, couched
in very bitter and ferocious terms, having a ten-
dency to incite the Christians against the Druses, and
also to irritate them against the English, on account, I
suppose, of the impression which certainly prevails in those
countries, that the English arc the friends of the Druses.
I am told that this newspaper, although published at Bey-
rout, is printed in one of the capitals of Europe ; and if that
is so—if this journal is printed in a city where it would be
hardly safe or profitable for private individuals to engage
in suchia manufacture without the consent of the Govern-
ment—then I think we shall have another clue to the final
cause of the disturbances. (Hear, hear.) With the per-
mission of the house I am now anxious to say a few words
on the subject of Italy. (Hear.) Sir, the public prints
inform us this day—though, as it seems, the Government
have received no official communication of the fact—that
General Garibaldi has effected a landing in Calabria, and
for a long time there has been an impression, founded upon
the collapsed state of the Government of Naples, that Gene-
ral Garibaldi may succeed in displacing the Government,
probably going much further, and, if one may use a military
phrase, "rolling up" the greater part of Italy. It is also
given out that when this consummation is effected move-
ments will also be directed against Venetia. At such a
moment it was natural that Austria should be very vigilant.
'Everybody must admit that where you see an enemy pre-
paring to attack you you are not always bound to wait un-
til the attack takes place. That is a maxim that prevails
all over the world, but as a matter of policy of course you
need not act upon it if your opponent is vastly inferior to
yourself in strength. I have heard, therefore, with the
greatest satisfaction that Austria, notwithstanding reports
to the contrary, has determined not to interfere with any of
General Garibaldi's operations either in Naples or in the
Papal States. That is a determination which places the
Emperor of Austria in a most admirable position towards
Europe. Considering the antecedents of Austria, I think
the fact that she has arrived at such a conclusion entitles
her to great praise for the moderation and wisdom which
she is thus displaying. (Hear, hear.) One of my princi-
pal reasons for now venturing to address the house is my
desire to express an earnest hope that, beyond
the acquisition of Naples and Rome, no wild attempt will
be made by Gen. Garibaldi against Venetia. I am speak-
ing on the assumption that France will not interfere ; and I
say that if the Italians, unassisted by France, ventured to
assail the great Quadrilateral which repelled the Emperor
of the French, common prudence must lead us to fear that
such an attempt could not be made with any fair chance of
success. If it failed what would be the position of Italy?
Why, Austria, burs,ing forth from the Quadrilateral, and
claiming the right to pursue those who attacked her,
would, unless some miracle prevented her, overrun with
great ease the vale of Lombardy, and would reach, with-
out any serious difficulty, the gates of Turin itself.
I think, therefore, that the most ardent friends of
Italy must, if they have any prudence in them, join in
the hope that no attempt beyond the one I have referred
to will be made by General Garibaldi. It is suggested,
I know, that Venetia should be transferred to the Italian
people by purchase or in some such way. There are many
who look upon the possession by Austria of any territory in
the north-east of Italy as the greatest possible eyesore. But
the experience we have had of modern transfer by one coun-
try to another—the transfer, for example, of Savoy and
Nice to France—does not make me at all desirous to see con-
duct of that kind imitated by the Emperor of Austria. I
am bound also to say that the annexation of Savoy and Nice
has brought into a new light the importance of the great
Quadrilateral to Austria. Every one acquainted with mili-
tary operations in that part of the world knows that the
cccupation of Switzerland gives to any country the power, so
to speak, of rolling up all the defences on the Rhine. The oc-
cupation of Switzerland is, therefore, of the deepest import-
ance in the event of a war between France and Germany.
It is vital indeed, because it is on the flank. (Hear.) Since
the annexation of the neutralised provinces we are bound to
see how the neutrality of Switzerland can best be maintained.
The question is one which affects this country deeply, be-
cause the noble lord the Foreign Secretary has stated that
' her Majesty's Government would feel bound to maintain the
neutrality and independence of Switzerland, which again so
vitally affect the defence of the Rhine. But quis custodiet
ipsunz custodem ? Who shall be the safeguard of this safe-
guard ? In point of fact, I believe it will be found, in any
struggle between Germany and France, that the first ques-
tion which will arise will be whether the neutrality of Swit-
zerland can or cannot be maintained, and the means by
which it is to be maintained are the possession of the Quad-
rilateral. lam glad to see the hon, and gallant officer opposite
(Sir F. Smith), and I think he will confirm what I believe is
the opinion of most officers, that the best support of the neu-
trality of Switzerland is a strong power in the direction of the
great Quadrilateral. I will only further say that, having
made great sacrifices in the way of armaments, I think it
would be intolerable if what we are doing by our arma-
ments should be defeated by anything like a perverse sys-
tem of alliances. lam of opinion that there is no country
whose interests are more compatible with those of England
than France. (Hear.) It is true that France is a great
country, and in one sense is a rival country, but the ex-
perience of the years which elapsed between the termination
of the last war and 1852 show that the interests of the two
countries are perfectly compatible. During the whole of
that period there was hardly any dispute which was not of
what I may call a dynastic character. For instance, when
first after the congress of Vienna was peace threatened ?
It was by the Spanish marsiages, and no one will say that
the interests of France were concerned in that affair. I re-
peat that the interests of England and France are quite
compatible, and that all we desire is that the Government
of France should be animated by principles truly and de-
cidedly French; but when the Government neglects the
true interests of France, and proceeds to look after merely
dynastic objects, then the alliance between the two coun-
tries is endangered. As longas a truly French policy is pur-
sued there is nothing to bring that country into conflict
with England; but when it becomes a pursuit of what I
may call Bonapartist ideas, and when France, forgetting her
true interests, suffers her Government to remain in the
hands of men who pursue a tradition of the past with a
view to aggrandise a particular family, then I say that
necessarily and inevitably the two countries must be rent
asunder, as it is impossible that England should follow
France in such a course. I have now only to thank the
house for its attention, and to express a hope that the an-
swer of the noble lord will be satisfactory. (Hear.)
PERSIA.

Mr. H. SEYMOUR, in rising to ask a question relative
to Persia, took the opportunity to observe that an answer of
the noble lord (Palmerston) to a question he had asked re-
specting the Pasha of Egypt appeared to be inconsistent
with one of the articles of the treaty of 1840. By that ar-
ticle the Pashalic of Egypt was placed upon the same foot-
ing as all other pashalics with respect to revenue, but no
other governor of a Turkish province had the power of bor-
rowing upon the Customs' revenue. The noble lord said the
Pasha of Egypt had not exceeded his powers in raising a
loan; but if that doctrine were correct there could be no
reason why one pasha should not mortgage the revenues for
20 years to come. The interests of the pashas would natu-
rally induce them to raise money, because the succession
was not to the oldest son, but to the oldest male of the
family, and consequently each pasha made a purse for his
family. At present the power of the Pasha of Egypt was
absolute, and exceeded even that of the Sultan in Constan-
tinople. It would be very desirable that the treaty should be
revised in these portions which related to the succession and
the powers of the pashas. With respect to Syria, he would
only express a hope that the G overnment would take a de-
cided course, for he anticipated that there would be a rising
from Bagdad to Egypt if exemplary punishment were not
dealt out to the offenders in the late events. A remarkable
latter appeared afew days since, which showed that in Egypt
Christians and Europeans were exposed to the insults of the
Turkish soldiers, and the same feeling pervaded all the coma-
tries in that part of the world. He was assured that the bom-
bardment of Jeddah, so much condemned by some phi-
lanthropists at home, had prevented a rising at
Damascus and other places. He wished to call
the attention of the house to our relations with
Persia—a subject of considerable importance at the
present time. Sir H. Rawlinson was sent out under the
East India Company with a sufficient staff, but when he
arrived he found himself transferred to the rule of the Fo-
reign-office, and his kaff was taken away. Unfortunately,
there was no one attached to the Persian embassy who was
acquainted with the local affairs of that country, while
persons who were well acquainted with them, and who had
been educated with a view to such knowledge at the public
expense, we'e wasting their time at home in compulsory
idleness. Mr. Alison had to encounter in Persia the oppo-
sition of the Russian Minister—a man who had been 22
years in that country, had a thorough knowledge of its
affairs, was extremely agreeable and insinuating in his
manners, but at the same time very firm. He had also
immense means at his disposal, and was able to give pre-
sents, which our embassy was not allowed to bestow. It
would be seen therefore that the British embassy at Tehe-
ran laboured under great disadvantages. At the present
time there were important questions to be settled with Rus-
sia. The Russian Government was anxious to possess the
provinces to the south of the Caspian, where Persia main-
tained a military establishment for the purpose of chastising
the turbulence of the Turcomans, who were Persian subjects.
He had learnt from private information that the Russian
Government proposed to withdraw their embassy from
Teheran unless Persia consented to give up her control of
these Turcomaus. (Hear.) Every encroachment of Russia
in that direction affected the interests of England in the
East, and unless care was taken to check these encroach-
ments we should rue our negligence, perhaps, when it was
too late. He trusted that the noble lord would give the
house the means, by the production of papers or otherwise,
of obtaining authentic and official information on these sub-
jects. (Hear, hear.)
Sir G. BOWYER agreed in what had been said as to the
annexation of Savoy and Nice being an outrage on the part
of France and a disgrace to the illustrious House of Savoy;
but he wished to ask whether the annexation of Tuscany,
Parma, and the other duchies, and especially of a portion of
the dominions of the Holy See, was not equally an outrage
On the public law of Europe, It was the fashion, to speak

in terms of admiration of Gen. Garibaldi—(hear)—but he
wished to know whether the proceedings of Garibaldi were
not wholly subversive of the public law of Europe. Gari-
baldi sailed from Genoa, with the full knowledge of the
Sardinian Government, at the head of a body of filibusters,
consisting of refugee Poles and Hungarians and Sardinians,
many of them very desperate characters, and made an at-
tack en Sicily. He had no authority from any Sovereign
to do so; he was not in any sense a lawful belligerent, and
by the law of nations, therefore, was a pirate. Indeed, a
more daring act of piracy never was committed than that
which he committed on the dominions of the King of Na-
ples. He was successful in his attack on Sicily, and it was
now stated that he meant to attack Naples in the same way.
Would not this be also an outrage on the public law of
Europe ? He was convinced from what he knew of Italy
that nothing could be more offensive to the Neapolitans
than an attack from Sicily, as there was no friendly feeling
between the Sicilians and Neapolitans. If the Neapolitans
had grievances to complain of against their King—and he
believed these were much exaggerated—let them be re-
dressed by themselves. The King of Naples had granted a
constitution to his subjects. (A laugh.) Gentlemen might
laugh, but there was nothing to show,that the Neapolitans
were dissatisfied with that constitution. He believed it
would not work—(hear)—because what he called a consti-
tution was not a thing in accordance with the genius of the
people, or the history and requirements of the country.
Nobody loved constitutional government more than he did
in this country, but it did not follow that, because constitu-
tional government was suited to this country, it should be
set up everywhere else. Garibaldi was going, it was said,
to Naples to destroy the constitution, and dethrone the
King of Naples, and annex the country to that of Sardinia.
Would not that be a gross violation of the public law of
Europe ? But, not stopping here, they were told that
Garibaldi, after succeeding at Naples, was to attack the
dominions of the Holy See. (Hear, hear.) Would that be
in accordance with the public law of Europe ? What cause
could be given for so gross an outrage, so unprincipled a pro-
ceeding? He asked whether, with the knowledge of such
an intention on the part of Garibaldi, General Lamoriciere
would not be justified in marching against him before he
left Naples. General Lamoriciere was not bound to wait
for him in these circumstances. It was said Garibaldi was
going to attack Venetia also. (Hear, hear.) If so, Austria
would be justified in attacking him before he reached
Venetia. They were told that Austria did not intend to
interfere with Garibaldi till Venetia was attacked, but that
was only a matter of prudence. He was not present at a
meeting of the friends of the noble lord at the head of the
Government, but he understood that the noble viscount ap -
plauded the success of the foreign policy of his Government,
and said it was one entitled to the confidence of Parliament
and the country. (Hear, hear.) The noble viscount gave as
one proof of this that he was informed General Garibaldi
had landed on the territory of the King of Naples. Now, the
King of Naples had a Minister at this' Court and was at
peace with this country. Was ever such a thing done as for
the head of the Government to express his approbation of
an act of piracy—(no, no)—committed against a Sovereign
with whom we were at peace ? With regard to the sympathy
of her Majesty's Government fi..r General Garibaldi there
could be no doubt of it, and whatever moral support that it
was in their power to give had been given to that expe-
dition. Hon. members opposite invoked the public law of
Europe when it suited them, but when it was against them
they did not care a halfpenny for it and trampled it under
foot. Suppose, for example, Garibaldi had turned his eyes
upon the lonian Islands. There was an oppressed nation-
ality that had demanded to be united to Greece. Her
Majesty's Government put down the natives of the lonian
Islands by force, and flogged, hanged, and shot them to any
extent rather than admit their claim to say what Govern-
, they would belong to. Parliament was told that every
• country was to decide for itself how it was to be governed.
, Why, then, did the Government not convene an assembly
in the lonian Islands to determine how they were to be
• governed ? If Garibaldi went there the Government would
say the public law of Europe was violated and that Gari-
baldi was a pirate, but when he went to Naples they
applauded him. There was a man lately,in India very much
like Garibaldi. He was a brave patriotic man, called Tantia
Topee. (Oh, oh, and a laugh.) He kept the British army
at bay and gave them a vast amount of trouble. He was,
however, taken prisoner and brought to a court-martial on a
charge of rebellion against British authority. The Go-
vernment of India hanged that man. He thought that an
atrocious act. He knew it was said he was implicated in
some outrages against the Europeans. (Hear.) But he
was not charged on his trial with an, thing except treason
and with having resisted the English Government.
He died like a patriot. He had fought for his
country. He wished to drive the British out of the
country, and to preserve India for the Indians. If
the King of Naples took General Garibaldi he would
have as good a right to hang him as the Govern-
ment of India had to hang Tamils Topee. It was pretended
that the Italian duchies had declared for annexation with
Sardinia because they were badly governed. But it was ac-
knowledged that Parma was ruled by a wise and excellent
Princess, who governed her subjects well and justly. Parma
was treated like the rest, and therefore the badness of these
Governments were proved to be not the cause of the annexa-
tion. The Government of Tuscany was a mild Government.
(Oh, oh.) It had, however, been overturned by a conspi-
racy, headed by the Sardinian Minister accredited to that
very Court. (Hear.) The Minister of Sardinia at Rome
had also conspired against the Papal Government, and it
was by intrigues that the overthrow of the power of the
Holy See was attempted in the Legations. Hon. members
ought to blush—(a laugh)—to talk of the public law of
Europe under such circumstances. He believed that the re-
sult of these annexations would be the ruin of that Italian
freedom of which hon. members were so fond. He, too,
wished to see Italy great, glorious, and prosperous, but he
believed that would be best attained by a federal system,
which would unite the whole country without injuring the
rights of its Sovereigns. That object would, however, cer-
tainly not be attained by the utter destruction of the prin-
ciples on which the peace of Europe rested and upon which
society itself was founded. Ho believed that if the King
of Sardinia should succeed in all his schemes of annexation
his monarchy would fall to pieces in our own time like a
house of cards. He had before said that the annexations
going on would be the ruin of the House of Savoy, and he
was confirmed in this belief. At the present moment he
knew, upon good authority, that the greatest discontent
prevailed in the newly-annexed provinces of Sardinia.
In Tuscany the people had to be kept down by the Pied-
montese troops, and, as for liberty, there was none. The
people dared not read written communications, far less
speak what they thought. The overthrow of the legiti-
mate Sovereign was brought about by means of the coercion
exercised by the secret societies who now held undisputed
sway in Italy. He thought it very probable that Gene-
ral Garibaldi would succeed in overthrowing the King
of Naples—(cheers)—because the Neapolitans were not a
warlike people and could not cope with the band of ferocious
filibusters whom Garibaldi commanded. (A laugh.) Sup-
pose so much accomplished, what would follow ? Garibaldi
was pledged to attack the Roman States, but there he would
meet the French army. Possibly he would have to aban-
don that part of his programme ; but he could hardly avoid
fulfilling his pledge to attack Venetia. In that enterprise
Sardinia would be obliged to join him. The people had been
so excited by the dream of nationality—a dream for which
torrents of blood had been shed, and which had been a
source of misery rather than happiness to the mass of the
people—that dream had been so much encouraged by
speeches made by the noble viscount and his colleagues--
(hear, hear)—that the people were mad on the subject, and
Sardinia would be compelled to go against Austria.
Whether France would support Sardinia in that attack was
a matter of speculation. As the Emperor of France had
got what he wanted, and as if France supported Sardinia
Germany would support Austria, he thought it likely France
would not interfere. Ho very much doubted whether the
Italians by themselves would be able to resist the powerful
arms of Austria ; and if they were defeated, then that would
happen which had been hinted at by the Constitutionnel, and
Italy would be overrun by Austria from Turin to the South
Neapolitan States. But should France be tempted to
back Sardinia then there would be a general European
war, in which Great Britain would, in all probability, be
involved. For that result, if it arrived, we should have
ourselves to thank. It was the natural consequence of a
policy which set at nought all principles of right and wrong
and acknowledged that the end justified the means. A
universal public profligacy seemed prevalent just now. No
regard was paid to treaties or international law. He hoped
hon. gentlemen would be warned in time, and forbear to
give any further encouragement to the revolutionists in
Italy. Garibaldi, it was well known, had always been a
Republican, and only took up the King of Sardinia now
because he was a tool fit for his purposes. Garibaldi would
probably be seen before long at the head of a Red Repub-
lican movement that would throw everything into confusion
and necessitate the interference of the Powers. The violent
anarchy which the success of the revolutionary cause would
produce would be inevitably succeeded by a despotism sterner
and more powerful than that against which hon, members
exclaimed.

Viscount PALMERSTON—I am not going to follow the
hon. gentleman into a discussion of past events in Italy
during the year which has just elapsed ; neither am I going
to enter into any speculations as to the future. The lion.
gentleman asked, in the beginning of his speech, sovaral
questions as to the interpretation of international law, but
as he was kind enough to give an answer to them himself
„ .

it is unnecessary that I should go into them. (A laugh.)
I wish to set him right in regard to a misconception under
which he labours as to what was said by me
at a meeting
which I am sorry he did not honour with his attendance.
(A laugh.) At that meeting I spoke in terms of the highest
praise of the manner in which my noble friend the meta_
ber for the City had conducted the foreign policy of the
country. (Hear, hear.) That expression of mine seemed to
find an answer in the breasts of almost all who were present
on that occasion. (Hear, hear.) But I did not mention as a
proof and result of that policy the landing of Gen. Gari-
baldi in Italy. (Hear, hear.) I stated that as a single fa' t,
remarking that the landing would in all probability Lring
about events of grave importance, and that it was essential
to enable the Government to deal With those events, when
they might happen, that they should possess the good' will
and confidence of those who had hitherto honoured them
with support. (Hear, hear.) I certainly did not claim any
ohm iu the expedition of Geu, Garibaldi, but simply re.