The Sun.
London, England, 1860-08-10 00:00:00

The bill was read a second time.

The Census (Scotland) Bill and Corrupt Practices Pre-
vention Act (1854) Continuance Bill then passed through
committee.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Earl DERBY asked the noble earl opposite whether he
would to-morrow move a resolution as to the urgency of
passing other bills, as it would be very important that such
a resolution should be moved in order that the necessity of
such urgency should be considered previously to some noble
lords leaving town.
Earl GRANVILLE said it would be impossible to move
such a resolution with reference to bills to come up from the
Commons, and with reference to which urgency might be
required.

Earl DERBY asked whether the noble earl would give
notice with reference to those bills to-morrow.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that doing so would
give rise to two discussions, one on the motion and another
on the bills.

The subject then dropped, and the house adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(YESTERDAY.)
AUDIT OF THE CIVIL SERVICE.
Sir F. BARING moved the following :—" That the ap-
propriation and audit of the moneys voted for the Civil Ser-
vice Estimates are insufficient and unsatisfactory, and re •
quire early amendment." The right hon. baronet said
did not bring this motion for the purpose of complaining
of the Government, but in order to induce the
house to record their opinion on the subject.
The house was aware that the report of the select commit-
tee on public moneys had stated that the present system of
auditing the accounts was defective, and made certain re-
commendations in order to remedy that state of things.
The audit of the army and navy estimates was satisfactory,
but when they came to the civil service estimates they found
the case quite different. In that department they had a
board which was indepettent of the Government, holding
office like judges for life, and invested with very large
powers. In the miscellaneous estimates over IS ,000,000 was
expended without being audited by the commissioners. The
right hen, baronet proceeded at son length to point out
the existing defects in regard to the audit of the civil service
estimates, and again urged on the house the propriety of
placing his motion on their records.
Mr. LAING said that in reality the difference between
the right hon, baronet and the Government was a very
small one. After the report of the select committtee on
public moneys, there could be no doubt that the audit de-
partment required improvement. (Hear, hear.) On the
principle therefore they were agreed, but there were prac-
tical difficulties which had to be surmounted before im-
provement could be effected. The accounts of the army
and navy services were reckoned up at the end of each
financial year, while several of those of the civil service
were remaining over• for a considerable number of years.
Mr. WILLIAMS supported the amendment, and con-
tended that under the present system there was no security
of the public money being honestly expended.
After some discussion,
Sir G. LEWIS said he did not see how the Government
could oppose the amendment, nor was he aware of any in-
superable difficulty in making the improvements necessary
at the audit office.
Ultimately the amendment was agreed to without a
division.
CHARITABLE COMMISSIONERS, &c. (IRELAND).
Mr. HASSARD called the attention of the house to the
constitution of the Board of Commissioners of Charitable
Donations and Bequests in Ireland ; and he asked the
Chief Secretary for Ireland if he could and would take
measures to insure the attendance of a quorum of such
Commissioners at reasonably frequent periods, so that busi-
ness could be transacted ?
Mr. CARDWELL said that he would adopt the neees •
nary steps in regard to this master.
FINA.NCiS OF INDIA.
Sir C. WOOD gave notice to move, on Monday, in com-
mittee of the whole house, to enable the Secretary of State
for India to raise a sum not exceeding three millions for the
service of the Indian Government.
Sir C. WOOD then moved that on Monday the house
should resolve itself into committee to consider the expe.
dieney of raising that amount.—Agreed to.
In answer to Mr. J. B. SMITH,
Sir C. WOOD stated that arrangements were in progress
for obtaining some concession of territory from the Nizam
of Hyderabad ; and that as soon as possession of the land
was obtained the necessary steps would be taken for im-
proving the navigation of the river Godavery.
THE FERMANAGII GRAND JURY.
Mr. GRIFFITH asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland
whether 12 out of the 23 grand jurors of the county of Fer-
managh had lately signed and presented an address to Chief
Justice Monaghan, repudiating some advice which he had
given in his charge against party emblems and banners, by
the use in such address of the following terms, " that they
firmly believe that, unless owing to the remarks of his lord-
ship, no possible collision could occur between parties of
different creeds of this county," and that " his lordship's
strietetres would only lead to a more determined stand upon
their legal rights on the part of the Protestants, and to an
aggravated idea of moral injury on that of their Catholic
fellow-countrymen ;" whether at Londonderry and Ennis-
killen Orange flags had not been hoisted and party tunes
played by the bells of the churches during the presence of
Chief Justice Monaghan and Baron Hughes at the duties
of the assize ; and, if so, whether in the opinion of Govern-
ment, gentlemen who could offer such an address to ajudge
of assize, and thereby encourage such party proceedings on
a judicial occasion, have shown themselves to be fit to be
entrusted with the commission of peace in Ireland ?
Captain ARCIIDALL moved the adjournment of the
house, in order to make a statement on the subject. He
thought the rebuke which the right hon. gentleman (Mr.
Griffith) had received the other night from Lord J. Russell
Would have satisfied him for the rest of the session; but it'
aPpeared that the hon. member's desire for notoriety was
still operating. As having been foreman of the grand jury
opt Permanah, he wished to state what had really taken place.
?Shwas ono of the emst peaceable counties in Ireland.
Altintheiapiinci pal officers of the county were Roman Catholics,
including the clerk of the crown, the chairman of the quar-
ter sessions, the inspector of prisons, and the deputy-in-
tog
spector-general of Constabulary, ether withßoth the judges of assize,
ially a staffs, wore also Roman Catholics.
Th 0 ugh essent
cmarzetstant county, the county of Fer-
managh had never
officers having been seleetteyd
quarrelled wirth those appointments, the
the
„rt.'. efficiency, not on ae•
coaut of their religion,
tomesement of Chief Justice
men ighan it apeared that thewere few in number,
and light. Tie said it was saisfa.ctor soufch a state
g investigation elsewhere,a
of thin,s,s at that time of the year, while erimmeds
Passed off with perfect
character were undergoing
serious
found that the 12th of July had He
peace and quietness, no party feeling had
been exhibited.
No insult had been given to the Roman Catholics, and ,et
this was the occasion when Chief Justice Monagh„ had
selected to tell the Protestants of Fermanagh that though
they had kept within the letter of the law, they had acted
contrary to its spirit by the exhibition of certain flap—

with which they had nothing whatever to do. On that
occasion he (Captain Archdall) had felt it his duty, as fore-
man of the grand jury, to make a few observations to the
judge in court, assuring him that there had been no inten-
tion to insult or wound the feelings of the Catlpilics. His
lordship replied that although there might not have been
such intention, the course pursued would undoubtedly
have that effect. The grand jury felt that the remarks
of his lordship were likely to be of a very injurious charac-
ter, and they consequently drew up an address which
was signed by twelve of their number. The rest would
have signed it, but they thought his observations in
court as foreman were sufficient. The Orange flag had been
hoisted on the church some days before the judges arrived
at Enniskillen. The bells of the church had been rung
without his knowledge. He thought that the grand jurors
would not have done their duty if they had not remon-
strated with the judge on the effect of his remarks.
Mr. CARDWELL said he would not enter at length into
this discussion—the more so as there was a bill already in
the house which dealt with the subject, on which hon.
members might make such observations as they chose. He
would answer the questions put to him as far as he could
He had no official information as to what passed on the oc-
casion in question. He had only the same information as
other members possessed, and the statement now made to
the house by the foreman of the grand jury. As far as he
knew, it was not the intention of the Government to take
any such steps as had been suggested in connexion with
this occurrence. As to whether party tunes were played
subsequently, he had official information. What took place
was this—a flag had been hoisted on Walker's monument,
which was most properly taken down by the mayor. That
was all the information he possessed.
The motion for adjournment was then withdrawn.
THE PAPER DUTIES.
_ _

Mr. BRIGHT gave notice for to-morrow, on the motion
for adjournment till Monday, to put a question to the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer on the sibject of the excise duties
on paper, and to call attention to the present position of the
house with regard to that question. (Hear.)
SPAIN.

Mr. Id. BAILLIE asked whether any application had
been made to admit Spain to the rank of a first-rate power ;
and, if so, whether it was the intention of her Majesty's
Government to withheld its consent so long as the Govern-
ment of Spain continued to tolerate the slave trade, and
systematically to disregard its treaties and engagements
with this country ?
Lord J. RUSSELL--I am not aware that Spain has
herself made any application, or expressed ()facially any
desire, to be admitted as a first-rate power with the five
great powers of Europe, which are usually so denominated.
But the Government of France has expressed an opinion
that it would be desirable that Spain should be added to
those five powers. Upon that proposition or suggestion,
the Government of Austria, or rather the Emperor of Aus-
tria, has answered that he would have no objection to see
Spain one of the great powers, but that such a step ought
not to be turned into a precedent for the admission of any
other power. The Government of Prussia, on the other
hand, has expressed an opinion that it would be injurious
to the protestant states of Europe, if the balance in an as-
sembly of five powdrs were altered by admitting another
Roman Catholic power amongst them, and that if that were
done it would be desirable that Sweden also should be ad-
mitted. (Hear, hear.) Now upon that it fs to be consi-
dered that Spain, Sweden, and Portugal signed the original
treaty of Tienna ; and I think it would not be desirable, if
Spain and Sweden were admitted, that Portugal, which has
always entertained some jealousy with regard to Spain,
should be excluded. If this were done, there would be
eight powers instead of five. But we must also consider
that Sardinia is a very thriving and flow ishhag state—
(cheers)—and Sardinia would, no doubt, put in her claim ;
and if that were the case, there would be nine powers in-
stead of five. (Hear, hear.) Considering, however, that
since 1815, or somewhat later, the consent of these five
powers has upon the whole, with two intervals certainly,
very well preserved the peace of Europe, which I imagine
was the object of the Congress of Aix• la-Chappelle in mak-
ing this arrangement--I own it appears to me very unde-
sirable that we should change the present state of things in
that respect. At all events I can assure the hon. gentle-
men that during the recess her Majesty's Government will
not consent to any change in the existing arrangement.
(Hear.)

PROPOSED CONSUL AT LYONS.
In answer to Mr. BAZLEY,
Lord J. RUSSELL stated he was very unwilling to in-
crease the public charge for the consular service—(hear,
hear)—and for the present certainly he should not advise
the appointment of a British consul for Lyons.
MANUFACTURE OF ARTILLERY.
Mr. BERKELEY asked whether the Low Moor Com-
pany (ironfounders in Yorkshire) were making smooth-
bored guns for her Majesty's Government, and for what
purpose. ; the same company having made cast-iron guns,
to be afterwards streagthened by Sir W. Armstrong, how
many had been made, how many had burst upon trial or
failed, and how many had succeeded ? Did guns made by
Colonel Wilmot on nearly the same plan in Woolwich
Arsenal succeed ? Was not the Secretary of State for War
aware that guns made after the same plan had been adopted
and were perfectly successful in France, and if not placed
actually on board ship, were ready stacked for that purpose,
both at Cherbourg and Toulon ? Was ho aware that the
Russians had adopted that gun, and were at the present
time manufacturing it in Liverpool P
Mr. S. HERBERT was understood to say that the Low
Moor Company were making guns, 68-pounders and 32-
peunders, for the use of the navy. Those guns would pro-
bably never be displaced by any rifled guns that could be
made. (Hear, hear.) Upwards of 300 cylinders had been
made for the purpose of beiug strengthened with iron hoops.
Of those five had been tested ; three had burst ; and that
number bursting the Government had thought that there
must be something defective in the manner in which they
had been hooped. They had therefore resolved to wait for
further inquiry into the mode of hooping, with the view of
strengthening them more effectually; and he had no doubt
they should succeed in doing so. With respect to the other
questions, Colonel Wilmot had hooped a gun male by one
of the great founders ; it showed considerable strength,but
burst at 391bs. pressure. He ought to state that specimen
guns were tried to destruction, in order to ascertain what pres-
sure they would bear. As to the last two questions, the hon.
gentleman had information which he had not. There cer-
tainly were guns stacked at Toulon and Cherbourg which the
FrsenchGovernment had so little confidence in that they had
not placed them in ships, and did not intend to do so, but in
fortresses. He might state that there was doubt whether wo
did not over-try our guns, and apply too severe a test. The
powder used here was very much stronger than the powder
used abroad. That question had to be considered; and it
was very.possible that guns might stand the test applied to
them in France, and not stand the test applied here. The
Russians had not adopted the gun referred to, but they had
in use a gun made at Liverpool by the Mersey Company,
which was a wrought-•iron gun.
FORTIFICATIONS (PROVISION FOR EXPENSES)
BILL.
On the motion for the second reading of this bill,
Mr. E. JAMES moved as an amendment that, before pro-
ceeding further with this bill, it is desirable that this house
should be in possession of further information as to the en' ire
cost of the construction and efficient maintenance of the sea
defences, and the proposed land fortifications, distinguishing
the expenses necessary to be incurred by the country in re-
spect of such proposed sea defences and land fortifications.
The amount proposed to be expended was so enormous that
the Government ought to furnish further information be-
fore the bill was read a second time. Its object was to con-
firm the expenditure of two millions of money on the ferti-
lisations mentioned in the schedule. He would not trouble
the house with the details of this expenditure, but would
rather take their sense on the question whether further in-
formation was not required. There was very great differ-
ence of opinion as to whether land fortifications were de-
sirable, Some • great authorities were of opinion that the
noble lord ought to have applied the amount asked for in
sea defences. It would appear from the report that a sum
of £11,000,000 was proposed to be expended on the construc-
tion and armament of the fortifications, but not a word was
said upon that to which his amendment pointed—the cost of
the efficient maintenance and manning of these fortifications.
It appeared that about £6,000,000 of the £11,000,000 was
to be expended on the sea defences, dockyards, and arsenals,
and £3,000,000 on the land defences. The report stated
that about 68,000 men would .be required for the efficient
maintenance and manning of these fortifications. Taking
the cost of each man at £6O a year, they had an ex-
penditure of £3,000,000 a year for the maintenance of the
fprtifications. (Hear.) The report asked for £150,000 to
buy land for a central arsenal at Cannooli-chase. They fur-
ther said that the defences of Woolwich might cost £700,000,
which was as much as to say that they might cost three or
four times that amount. Now his complaint was that they
were called on to vote these enormous sums of money with.
out having got from the Government any distinct statemeni

as to the ultimate limit of the cost, and he thought the
House of Commons would be stultifying themselves if they
voted 12,000,000 without having the most remote idea of
the extent of the expenditure. He therefore called on the
Government to give the house something like accurate and
precise information on this point. (Hear.)
Sir C. NAPIER seconded the motion. They had already
spent 11,500,000 on the works at Portsmouth and Ply-
mouth, and the £2,000,000 now askee for would go but a
small way towards the completion of the fortifications men-
tioned in the report of the commissioners. The commis-
sioners classed the fortifications of Portsmouth under five
heads. The first related to the defences of the harbour and
its entrance. Now there was not a waterman at Ports-
mouth who dial not know that by taking up the buoys and
marks of the harbour, it would be impossible for the pilots
themselves to run a fleet into it. (Hear, hear.) It was
excessively narrow and shallow. (Hear, hear.) A three-
decker could rot 7,1114 her guns in, and of what
use would she be with her guns out ? Some of their vessels
were now built 350 feet long, and he had no hesitation in
saying that the smallest mistake in turning the helm would
run ships of that kind on shore. (Hear, hear.) You would
no more think of taking out a three-decker with guns in
than you would of flying in the air. Again, you had only
to create a fog at the mouth of the harbour, and no vessel
could get in or out. (Hear, hear.) But it appeared frozn
the evidence of the report itself that even with the for-
tification of Portsmouth east and west complete, it