The Sun.
London, England, 1860-04-24 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, APRIL 24, 1860.

SPECIAL NOTICE.
CLERICAL, INIEDICAL, k GENERAL LIFE
ASSURANCE SOCIETY.

Established 182 t.
All persons who effect Policies on the Participating Scale
before:June 30, 1860, will be entitled at the next Bonus to one
year's additional share of profits over later Assurers.
• Tables of Rates and Forms of Proposal can be obtained of
any of the Society's Agents, or of
GEORGE CUTCLIFFE, Actuary and Secretary.
13, St. James's-square, London, S.W.

fYi ETROPOLITAN, COUNTIES, ANI)
1-Y-1- GENERAL LIFE ASSURANCE SOCIETY.
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Life Assurance, Annuities,Fndowments and Loans.
F. FERGUSON CAMROUX, Manager.

WEST MIDDLESEX VOLUNTEER
RIFLES.—S. W. SILVER and CO., Contractors to
the Corps, are now prepared to supply the cloth accoutre-
ments, gaiters, &c., according to regulation.
66 and 67, CORNIIILL, E.C.

REDUCTION OF TEN. POUNDS PER TON
In the price of .
THORLEI"S FOOD FOR CATTLE
On and after the Ist of April, 1860.
Barrels ctg 948 Feeds, wg nett 11.21b5„ with measure, 40s each
Cases „ 448 Feeds„, 1121b5., in Packets, 45s each
Carriage paid to any railway station in the kingdom,
Nutritives value .. £l5
Condimental value .. .. 125

Total •• • • • • £l4O per ton.
showing a profit of £lOO per ton through the use of this in-
valuable compound, adapted for the seasoning of all kinds
of food for animals.

Agents required in every town where none are already
appointed.
JOSEPH THORLEY, the Inventor and sole Proprietor.
Offices, 77, Newgate-street, London.
A Pamphlet sent free by post on application.

MPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS-(YESTERDAY.)

The Loan CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack
at the usual hour.

THE DIVORCE BILL.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said their lordships were
aware that the Divorce Bill stood for committee the first
thing this evening, but he had received a communication
from Lord Redesdale, chairman of committees, informing
him that owing to severe indisposition he was unable to
attend that evening. Under these circumstances he should
postpone the further proceeding until Thursday next.

25th of August and the 3d of November, he declared to me
his private opinion—he had no authority whatever to con-
vey it to my Government—but he stated that, in his opinion,
if the annexation of the Duchies to Sardinia took place,
such a step would be followed by a demand on the part of
France that Saioy should be annexed to her. This was
not an official communication made to me ; it was an ob-
servation which passed in common conversation, and I cer-
tainly did not take it, nor was it meant to be taken, as a
declaration made to the British Government. (Cheers.)
Still, I thought it advisable to make it known to Govern-
ment,
and I accordingly did so in my private letters. I
was in possession of the solemn declaration which Count
Walewski gave in July, and if I had made the observa-
tion the subject of an official communication I should have
involved the Government at once in the discussion of a
question— (cheers)—which to all appearance was about to
engage the attention of a congress, and I should have given
up the advantage of the previous declaration which I had
received unequivocally, and without any qualification what-
ever. (Cheers.) Another consideration which weighed very
strongly with me was that, whatever the wish or intention of
France might be, it was impossible that Sardinia would
give up its territory. I did not believe that the King of
Sardinia would relinquish what has been well called "the
cradle of his dynasty," and which, moreover, is the last
resting-place of his ancestors. (Hear, hear.) My noble
friend, in the resolutions which he has proposed, remarked
that it is not usual to refer to private correspondence in
public despatches. My lords, I admit this; it is irregular;
but I think I can give your lsrdships good reasons why this
irregularity took place. When the change of Government,
or rather the change in the department for Foreign Affairs,
took place I happened to be out of town. On returning to
Paris I found the whole aspect of matters altered. The
question of Savoy, which had completely fallen to the
ground, was in everybody's mouth, and it consequently
became necessary for me to speak to the now Minister
for Foreign Affairs on the point. Congress, moreover,
was shortly expected to assemble. As soon as M. Thou-
venel had taken office I went and spoke to him on this
question; but he was so totally unacquainted with what
had taken place that he told me on various occasions
until he had an opportunity of informing himself fully he
would give me no information. It was not until the
sth of February that he gave me any notification
of the intentions of the French Government. I had re-
ceived information in the meantime from other sources,
but it was only on the sth that anything like an official
communication was made to me. It was necessary for me
then to recall attention to the declarations formerly made,
and M. Thouvenel admitted the accuracy of my representa •
tions, but pointed out that on more than one occasion allu-
sion had been made to the possibility of a demand by France
in the event of territorial additions being made to Sardinia.
With regard to that part of the noble marquis's motion which
says that the " absence of any record is injurious to the
Foreign Minister who makes the communication," he must
know as well as I do, that when a Foreign Minister wishes
to make a communication to a foreign Government, he has
his own ambassador to do it by, and it is generally in that
way that such communications are made. (Hear.) Cer-
tainly no complaint of injustice was ever made to me by the
French Minister. (Hear.) lam not sufficiently conver-
sant with Parliamentary usages to know in what manner
this motion ought to be met. But I hope I have said
enough to convince your lordshipa that throughout th•
whole of these transactions no important communication
was ever withheld by me from her Majesty's Government
—(hear) —and that in making this particular communication
by a private letter, and not in a public despatch, I did that
which I thought best for the public interest, (Cheers.)
The LORD CHANCELLOR rose, and was about to put
the question that the resolution be agreed to, when
Earl GRANVILLE, who had been absent, returned to
his place, and said he wished to make a few observations.
The answer made by his noble friend who had just sat
down was so clear, so candid, and so perfectly satisfactory
—(hear, hear)—that not one single peer had risen to sup-
port the motion of the noble marquis. (Hear.) He should
therefore ask their lordships to agree to the previous ques-
tion. The noble earl then reviewed the speech of the noble
marquis in introducing the motion, and remarked that it
must have been painful to the noble marquis that during
this short session he should have been compelled by a sense
of public duty to attack the two men who had immediately
succeeded him in the two last diplomatic posts which he had
held. One of them was a young man, and it would be for
the noble marquis to say whether the attack was fair in
his absence ; but as to the other, the noble earl who had
just sat down, he need not speak of his good qualities as he
was present, except so far as to say that those qualities had
obtained for him the confidence of every minister who had
presided over the foreign affairs of this country, and of every
foreign minister with whom ho had had any communica-
tion. The noble marquis had also stated that it was not his
intention by the present motion to turn out of office her
Majesty's Government, nor did he even intend to censure
or blame the Government, and the noble marquis had even
asked that another motion in support of the Government
should be abandoned. '1 hat declaration was satisfactory,
but considering the serious tone of the noble marquis's
speech, and the personal attack which he had made against
the noble lord at the head of the Foreign-office and against
her Majesty's Government generally, raking up a story of
ten years old for the purpose of throwing the apple of discord
between two distinguished members of the Government, it
appeared to him that, if the noble marquis did not wish to
turn out the Government, it was because he was utterly
powerless to accomplish that task. (Hear.) The noble
marquis had complained of the answers which he (Earl
Granville) had given to him in the course of this session,
and first with regard to the despatch of Jan. 25, when it was
impossible for him (Earl Granville), after reading that des-
patch, to say, with the slightest semblance of truth, that the
government had received official information with regard to
the negotiations between France and Sardinia in reference
to Savoy. Lord Cowley himself said that he had no rea-
son to believe in the existence of the treaty, and that in-
deed for many reasons he was inclined to doubt it; there-
fore he (Earl Granville) could not say that he had received
official information. Lord Cowley went on to say that he
could not take upon himself to affirm that some sort of en-
gagement had not been entered into between the two Go-
vernments ; then why should he (Earl Granville) be called
upon to answer in the House of Lords statements which,
so far as he knew, had no official source of information !
With regard to the charge that Lord John Russell had en-
couraged the popular voice in Italy, he would appeal to the
noble earl as to whether he had received any instructions on
that point.
Earl COWLEY replied—None whatever.
Earl GRANVILLE expected the noble earl would give
that assurance. The results of the election were no doubt
distasteful to the noble marquis, who so confidently stated
that if universal suffrage were resorted to, the Government
would not be changed.
The Marquis of NORMANBY explained that what he
said was this, that if the Sardinian agents were withdrawn,
and the population of Tuscany was out of the power of
foreign pressure, then they might deliver their opinions
freely, and that such would be the result.
Earl GRANVILLE said he could not accept the expla-
nation of the noble marquis, because a few Sardinian agents
could not overturn the established customs of the country.
What the noble marquis distinctly stated was that her Ma-
jesty's Government had favoured the annexation of those
provinces to Piedmont, and that it was the direct cause of
Savoy being taken by France. He denied that, for her
Majesty's Government went no further than to say that the
Italians ought to be left to themselves to select that mode
of distribution of territory which they should think most
agreeable. (Hear.) On that point there was no difference
of opinion. The Government agreed that there ought to be
no foreign coercion upon the Italians, but that ther should
be allowed to adopt that mode of settlement which would be
best calculated to establish their future happiness. (Hear,
hear.) lie was too well acquainted with the English lan-
guage not to be able to say that the resolutions on the table
were drawn up in the most slip-slop manner, and particu-
larly where they referred to the published correspondence.
The noble marquis said that the French minister had stated
truly—certainly a very extraordinary declaration for their
lordships to agree to—that it was the intention of the Em-
peror of the French to take possession of Savoy under cer-
tain contingencies, which had been made known to her
Majesty's ambassador at Paris, and made known by him on
more than one occasion in private letters. Now, it would
have been perfectly impossible to state, at the time he was
referring to, that there was any truth in the matter. The
noble marquis said it was necessary to lay down the princi-
ple upon which diplomatic correspondence should be carried
on, and then he s aid it should be by means of public de-
spatches. But, in fact, the most important question was not
the want of any principle, because there would be no doubt
on that point, but when it should not be applied so as not
to be injurious to the public service. He begged pardon for
having treated this matter somewhat lightly, but really it
was one which did not require very serious eonsideration.
He could not move a direct negative, and therefore
he thought the most becoming way to treat the resolution
would be to move the previous question. (Hear, hear.)

The Earl of MALMESBURY said he was anxious to ex.
press the feeling- on that (the Opposition) side of the house
on this question, and to say that there was no intention
wkatever to cast any censure upon the noble earl who had
come over from Paris to be present this evening. For him-
self he might say that ho was perfectly conscious of
the ability displayed by the noble earl in carrying
on the important affairs of his mission, rand no man had a
greater admiration of those abilities than himself. Still,
he must say that the speech of the noble earl did not re-
move the impression that the noble marquis was justified in
bringing this subject before the house. The noble earl did
not deny that he had had some conversations with Count
Walewski, and that he sent them to this country, not in an

official form, but in private letters; and the noble earl ad..
mitted, too, that such a course might be irregular. It was
clear the result of this irregularity had been to enable the
Government to state by a sort of quibble that they hr 3 not
received any official information. (Hoar, hear.) It was
right, perhaps, to state that they had not received offi.iial
information, but it was a quibble, and they deceived the
house when they said they had received no information at
all. (Hear.)

Earl GRANVILLE was understood to say that he had
never denied the fact of there having been private letters.
The Marquis of NORMANBY made an observation
across the table wholly inaudible in the gallery.
The Earl of MALMESBURY said he understood that,
by the course which the Government had pursued, they
had deceived the house. (Hear, hear.) Did not the Go-
vernment receive information such as to excite an apprehen-
sion in their minds of the results which, in fact, had been
brought about? (Hear, hear.) But, whatever result there
might have been, a great injustice had been done to Count
Walewski, because he always spoke and acted as though
he had communicated to the noble earl the intentions of the
Government of France, and therefore he had not the least
hesitation in saying that his noble friend in Paris ought to
have made his communisations in the form of despatches.
Their lordships must be aware that the conversations of
Count Walewski brought with them a weight and impor-
tance which could not be attached to the private opinions
of an individual; and if when he had last year the honour
of being at the head of the Foreign-office, a foreign minis-
ter had said so-and-so was his private opinion upon such
and such a question, he should have considered that they
were words to be remembered and acted upon, arid repeated
to his colleagues. His noble friend had looked upon those
private conversations as of less consequence then. other con-
versations which had formed part of public despatches.
This was the whole of the charge which could possibly be
brought against his noble friend. He thought the noble
lord the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs had been
much to blame for not putting into a public :form those
private letters, so that those who might succeed him at the
Foreign-office might have the use of them. (Hear, hear.)
He believed that extracts might have been made from those
private letters, but it would have been unfair to have done
that without first communicating with the ambassador at
Paris. He would not have said another word if his noble
friend the President of the Council had not gone into the
subject respecting the annexation of Savoy, and if there had
not been some observations made in another place with re-
spect to what had passed when he was in office. His accu-
sation against the Government was of a much graver
nature than that with regard to this subject of the conver-
sations with Count Walewski. His accusation was that
they had not been watchful enough, or jealous enough, in
reference to this question. The Government had evidently
good cause of alarm, for there were documents within the
reach of the noble lord at the head of the Foreign Depart-
ment quite sufficient to arouse the apprehension of her Ma-
jesty's Government, and to prepare them to expect what
had really been brought about. So long ago as October,
1858, there was a despatch received at the Foreign-office
which showed that a great conspiracy had been concocted
between the two great personages at Plombieres. The
president of the Swiss republic wrote to her Majesty's Go-
vernment, and stated that he had reason to be m alared, for
i
he believed that a treaty had been entered nt, between
the Emperor of the French and Count Cavour with respect
to the disposition of Savoy. (Wear, hear.) They put in-
quiries to the noble lord opposite, in order that they
might ascertain what had taken place, and they were
told that no treaty had been signed. He (the Earl of
Malmesbury) did not believe that any treaty was signed by
either of the two potentates, and he believed the reason was
that they might be able without any violation of truth to
say that no treaty had been signed. But at the same time
he entertained a conviction, amounting almost to absolute
knowledge, that a conditional agreement was made whieh
had since been carried out. What was the impression that
was produced upon her Majesty's Government at that time?
Personally, he was sufficiently alarmed to communicate his
fears to his colleagues, and to warn France of the feeling of
England upon the subject, and he had been tainted by the
noble viscount now at the head of her Majesty's Govern-
ment with having in so doing unnecessarily offended
France. What was it that the Government did when a
proposition was made for the French troops to march
through Savoy into Sardinia? The Swiss Government ob-
jected to such a step as an infringement of the treaty of
1815, which they quoted in order to show that the troops
had no right to pass through the neutralised territory, but
subsequently, when there was some dispute as to whether
the line of railroad did not by a short cut avoid all the neu-
tralised parts of Savoy, the Swiss Government waived their
objection, and allowed the troops to pass. But her Majesty's
Government took a very different course. They considered
the independence and neutrality of that territory of such
European consequence that they thought the exact and
even the pedantic observance of treaties necessary, and
therefore protested most energetically against the passage
of the troop:. On the 29th of April, 1359, he wrote to say
that her Majesty's Government were aware from a com-
munication which had reached them that the Swiss Govern-
ment did not intend to raise any objection to the passage of
the French troops but as parties to the treaties by which the
neutrality of that district was recognised, her Majesty's Go-
vernment felt it their duty to place it on record that the
marching of troops through the district was directly con-
trary to the treaty envagernents to which France as well as
the other powers were parties. That showed how jealous
the late Government were of any question concerning Savoy,
and yet for having written the letter to which he referred,
he was taunted by the present Prime Minister with having
uselessly offended the French Government. But the jea-
lousy which they showed at that time, and the apprehension
they entertained, were entirely set aside by the Govern-
ment which succeeded, and led to a supineness calculated
rather to encourage than to check the policy of encroach-
ment which France desired to inaugurate. Would it be
believed by any person who now knew that the annexation
of Savoy was accomplished, that only a short time ago, in
reply to a question from Sir It. Peel as to the nature of the
communications which had taken place between the Sar-
dinian and the British Governments, and whether there
was any intention to cede Savoy to France, the noble lord
the Foreign Secretary stated that there was no treaty upon
the subject, and that Sardinia had no intention to cede Sa-
I voy ? That, however, had been the general nature of the
answer which had been given to all the inquiries addressed to
the Government. But the noble lord added, that her Majes-
ty's Government had not communicated to France the opinion
entertained by the other powers because ho had had no com-
munication with the other powers to ascertain what their
opinions were. (Hear, hear.) He had been taunted in
another place with not having acted with greater energy in
reference to Italian affairs, and had also been accused of con-
duct calculated to promote a quarrel between this country and
France ; and under those circumstances, he had merely risen
to defend himself from the charge made against him, and to
state that in his opinion the conduct of the present Govern-
ment throughout the whole matter had been far from satis-
factory. That there had been some irregularity in the cor-
respondence between the noble lord (Earl Cowley) and the
Foreign Secretary he was not prepared to deny, but under
the whole of the circumstances he would recommend his
noble friend (the Marquis of Normanby) to withdraw his
resolution, or to accept the course suggested by the Presi-
dent of the Council. (Hear, hear.)
Lord WODE HOUSE denied that there had been any at-
tempt on the part of the Government to mislead the house.
When questioned upon the subject of the contemplated an-
nexation of Savoy, his noble friend (Lord Granville) stated
what was precisely the fact of the case, namely, that there
had been no official communication, but that some conver-
sation had passed upon the subject between Lord Cowley
and Count Walewski, which was not included in the de-
spatches. It had been said that her Majesty's Government
had not set themselves seriously to oppose the annexation
of Savoy. He thought that anyone who read the despatches
upon the question would be able to contradict that asser-
tion, for no one could peruse them without seeing that the
British Government had taken a meet decided part against
that annexation ; and he was quite sure that the part we
took must have left the strongest impression on the diffe-
rent courts of Europe that the British court were anything
but favourable to such annexation. His noble friend had
said that the steps which the Government took in the mat-
ter were not taken sufficiently soon. All he could say upon
that point was, that England being one of the great powers
which signed the treaty of Vienna, the moment anything
occurred which in any way tended to destroy the guarantee
given under that treaty her Majesty'sGovernmcnt consulted
the different Powers of Europe, and even at the present
moment it was in correspondence with the great Powers on
the affairs of Italy. As to that portion of the noble mar •
quis's statement which had reference to correspondence by
private letters instead of official despatches, it had been so
fully and completely answered by his noble friend (Lord
Cowley), that he thought their lordships would at once ac-
cept his explanation. (Hear, hear.)

The Marquis of NORMANBY, in reply, said that it wax
clear sufficient grounds existed to justify him in bringing
this matter before the house ; and he was quite surprised to
hear that noble lords who differel so entirely with one of
their colleagues some years ago on this very subject of pri-
vate correspondence should now justify the proceedings to
which he had called their lordships' attention. Noble lords
opposite might find it convenient to forget that circum-
stance, but he was quite sure that it was remembered by
every foreign Minister and diplomatist abroad. He dis-
claimed all private motives in bringing forward the matter,
stating that he had been actuated solely by public motives
and a desire to see our foreign correspondence conducted in
a regular manner, and through the medium of recognised
public despatches. The noble marquis concluded by saying
he would not withdraw his resolutions, but would accept
the previous question. He was only anxious to show to