The Sun.
London, England, 1860-02-17 00:00:00

penal servitude for stealing a few sticks from a fagot stack;
Whether there was any truth in the statement ?
Sir G. C. LEWIS said that an application had been
made to the Chairman of the Quarter Sessions relative to
the matter, but no information had yet been received.
LORD ELGIN.
Mr. B. OSBORNE inquired whether there was any
truth in the statement which had appeared in the news-
papers, to the effect that Lord Elgin was about to be sent

in fa mission to China ?
Lord J. RUSSELL said that he could not answer 'that
question at present.
THE RUSSIAN COMPANY.
Mr. HUBJWRD asked the President of the Board oi
Trade whothff he had received any, and, if any, what com-
munication from the Governor of the Russian company,

eituciaiiiilestieVy of dues by that company.
Mr. M. GIBSON said that it was intended to remove
the dues alluded to in the event of the treaty with France
being agreed to by the house.
MANNING THE NAVY.
Sir C. NAPIER moved that in the opinion of this house
the recommendations of the commissioners on manning
the navy ought to be taken into consideration by her Ma-
jesty's Government, with a view to carry out the prin-
ciples of such recommendations. The Secretary to the Ad-
miralty had declared that France had the same number of
ships that we had, and had extra means of manning them
by having recourse to her reserves ; but the English fleet
could not be ms nned in that way. Such a declaration by a
member of Government was one of the most extraordinary
declarations he had ever heard. He was glad that we had
a respectable and well manned fleet at the present moment :
but we lived in very odd times. France appeared to him,
more particularly after what had passed that night, to oc-
cupy a very uncertain position with regard to Great Britain
sad other nations. All this might end peaceably ; but as
we were not sure that it would, the Government ought to
take steps, let it cost what it would, to secure that we should
be able to bring forward as great a naval force as France.
Every man in the house, soldier, sailor, or civilian, knew
perfectly well that things had taken a very different turn of
late years from what they had done in former ones. No
man could tell what would be the effect of the first naval
action fought between France and England. We had
great reliance on our sailors and officers, but the changes in
other respects were so perfectly extraordinary, and had
never yet been tried, that it was impossible for any one to
tell what would be the effect of the first collision.' In for-
mer days, when a British man-of-war fell in with a French
man-of-war, the doom of the latter was fuel ; and the same
when a British fleet fell upon a French fleet. In the late
war the action fought on the Ist of June by Lord Howe was
a very severe action ; it was fought well both by the French
and ourselves. We were conquerors, but that action was
fought after the French Revolution, when the most distin-
guished officers had left the service, and the French ships
were not manned so well as ours. That battle was gained,
but no human being could tell what would be the result of
the next naval action, when they had guns which fired shot
that would make a hole as large as a wheelbarrow. (A
laugh.) No one could say what the effect of molten iron
would be. It was probable that in the first naval action
which was fought, both fleets would be almost annihilated,
and if in that case the French were able to bring forward
another fleet, what would be the position of this country ?
It would be almost annihilated. Now the Government
stated by the mouth of one of their own officers
that we were not in a position to send a second
fleet to sea. It was true they had a reserve in the
different ports of England, and a recommendation was
made that the coast-guards should be increased to 12,000
men, but they were only increased to 8,100. With regard
to the coast volunteers, it did not appear so much atten-
tion was paid to them as was the case some years ago. On
a former occasion he proposed that efficient men-of-war
should take the place of the block ships, and the noble lord
at the head of the Government voted for that motion. They
had 48 sail of the line but 27 only were in commission.
Now what was to hinder the Government from replacing
the inefficient block ships by efficient men-of-war ? This
was a step which ought to be taken, but whether it was
owing to dereliction of duty on the part of the Admiralty,
or to stubbornness in resisting proposals that did not
emanate from themselves, they were just in the same posi-
tion as they were last year when he brought forward his
motion. The noble lard the Secretary to the Admiralty
admitted that seamen entertained great suspicion of the
Beard. He quite agreed with the seamen in their view.
How could sailors place any confidence in that Board ?
Some time ago the Admiralty found it necessary to call
out what were called the long pension men, promising the
same pay and allowances as they had before. But did the
Board carry out what they had promised ? Here was the
petition of the men, complaining that the promise held out
had not been fulfilled. (The hon. and gallant admiral
commenced to read a portion of the petition in question,
but the daylight in the house not being sufficient, he re-
quested the Speaker to order the light to be set on. This
having been done the gallant admiral proceeded to say that
this was only one amongst many instances where the men
were dissatisfied, and justly so, with the conduct of the
Board of Admiralty. When there was such a want of men
would any person in his sane senses believe that an order
had been sent to the different ports directing that when a
ship came into port, if any of the men were found outside,
they were to be taken up as stragglers, and their pay
stopped ? This only came to his knowledge yesterday, and
when he heard it hetsearcely believed it to be possible. With
regard to the report of the manning commission, the Ad-
miralty had not carried out the recommendation respect-
iv g the boys and seamen gunners. He admitted that bread
and meat were improved, that clothes and bedding had
been supplied, that the allotments had been carried out,
and that the reserve ships were in such a state that they
were ready for the men to go into the moment they were
commissioned. The bounty question was the most impor-
tant, however. He believed he had as much to do in get-
ting the bounty for the seamen as any other man, and it
was most successful in manning the fleet. The fleet was
now manned ; but was it prudent to reduce the bounty to
? £lO might be too high a-bounty after the fleet was
manned, but certainly much more thanl4 ought to be given.
He now came to the important point of the reserve, and in
regard to it he did not think that the Government had
taken the proper steps to obtain success. They were now
obliged to keep up a large fleet. He did not mean to say
that ten sail of the lino was too large a force on the home
station, but such a large fleet would not be necessary if
they had a proper reserve. If they had a reserve of 5,000
men, giving £lO a piece to men who had served ten years,
which was called the short pension. they would always
have a body of men who would be as ready to be called on
as if they were on board the fleet. But if they were
obliged to employ 6,000 additional men on board the
fleet, they would cost at a low estimate .L 250,000 ; whereas
the reserve force of 5,000 men:would not cost above £50,000.
If £lO was not sufficient to get the men, they ought
to increase it to £l2, or to a still higher sum, so important
was the object to be gained. The commissioners recommended
an.increo.se of 5,000 marines, but that had wily been carried
out to the extent of 1,000. With regard to the royal volun-
teers the commission put them down at 20,000, but it would
be difficult•to find out where they were, or the 10,000 naval
coast volunteers. That was the reserve force pointed out
by the commission, but that reserve force they had not got
and never would. He had pointed out before that it was
not necessary to press men into the service, but it was
necessary to get them out of the service as fast as they
could. If men who had served their country ten years, or
even five years, got a pension of five years, and were en-
couraged to go into the coastguard volunteers, allowing
three years' time there to count for two of effective service,
it would contribute to the formation of an effective reserve.
But when the house should read the report of the Greenwich
Hospital Commissioners, they would be astonished to see
what " advantages " that hospital held out to seamen, and
when they had seen the manner in which, from year to year,
sailors' wives and children had been treated at Greenwich
Hospital, they would be induced to come to the conclusion
that that institution, instead ef being a blessing, was almost
a curse. He had laboured for years to have that commis-
sion appointed, and he never read such horrible details as the
evidence given before it exhibited in the whole course of his
existence. He had now gone through pretty nearly
the whole of what he had to say, but there was one point he
must not leave out, because it was so rich. In 1857 the
Government decided to pay off seven sail of the line, but at a
subsequent period they were absolutely obliged to give a
bounty of £lO each to bring back the men they had paid off.
Ile intended to do all he could to get the Admiralty re-
formed, for every one declared it was excessively bad at pre-
sent. He must, however, give them the credit to any that
the other day they did a praiseworthy thing. Baldwin
Sir
Walker, eurveyor to the navy—than whom there wasno
more efficient public servant—could not go down into the
dockyard and give a single order to the superintendent of
power of any description. He
the dockyard, and had no
was happy to say, however, that the Admiralty had now
made Sir Bald win comptroller, so that he could now go into
the dockyard au* give any orders he thought proper, an
arrangement by which hundreds of thousands of pounds
would be saved to the country. He was sorry to have de-
tained the hote4e so long, but he looked upon this as a very
important subject. After what they had heard about France
and Savoy, it was impossible for any man to say what
might be the consequence in six months hence, and the
noble lord at the head of foreign affairs might be one of the
first who—he was going to say—might be brought to the
block. (A laugh.) If we lost our channel fleet we had no
reserve, while the French had a reserve, and in case of any
untoward circumstances arising out of that state of things
he Should not like to be in the Ministers' shoes. But if
they put their shoulders to the wheel they would be" able
to maintain their position; let them get a proper reserve,
which would only cost 150,000, and without that re serve
they could net man their fleet (Hear, hoar.) The hon.
and gallant member concluded by placing in the Speaker's
hand the resolution of which he had given notice.
Sir M. SEYMOUR seconded the motion.
Mr. HENLEY said it was impossible to read the valu-
able evidence given before the commission on manning the
navy without coming to one of two conclusions-0:30 of
which was, that when the navy was stated at anything
like an even number there was no difficulty in getting as
many men as were wanted ; on the other hand, it seemed
quite clear that in case of war breaking out, then there
was great difficulty in getting the number of men required.
It had been said that the Queen's service was not popular
in the merchant service, and it was also said that the mer-
chant service had no confidence in the Admiralty. Many
things had happened lately to bear upon this point. The
right hon. baronet opposite some years ago got up a great
Crimping machinery to get men far the xavy ; but it turned
outtinat seamen did not like to be " ticketed' any more than
te. nonconformists. (A laugh.) Be that as it might,
thatnavalnachinery had now been set up in order to get up a
cir-
cumstances' He should have thought, under these cir-
ances, and looking to the legislation of last year, and
viewing tho ex' t. 18 mg state of feeling in the merchant service,
if there was on
than another,one point which ought to be considered more
it was the terms of service in the navy. The
condition of the terms should be so plain and simple that
anybody could havmeroecaiedoand understood them, which would
be-the most likely
mtrfareeloving the suspicion that there
-was any intention to
to
for this service. (Hear.)
It was said that men otHigehatPhoublsgrlled cut by proclamation
upon an emer
meiaknet. to ITiahNz-eaaent isnaitderiptrewtaa;
tion of what an "emergency"
when her Majesty might think fit, but was not the
condition. Seamen naturally ask what they mean—eras it
that
when war or invasion was expected, or there was any dan-
ger of it ? He thought a great de dof the legislation of that
house about seamen treated them as if they; were all fuels.
Now they were no such thing. They were a most tilpi
efous race of mortals, and when you held out to thorn termsi-
which nobody could understand, they would be totally at a
USA to comprehend what was meant by an " emergency."
The 'next question was as to the period of service. Five years
was • the time specified, but that might be carried out to
within a few days of ten years. Afi plain man would say,
"I'll make a bargain with you for vo ears B
. ut the- was
not the state of the case ; yet they wanted A. B. seen,
and there were not many of them. The Manning Commis
sioners told them there were only 66,000 of them altogether.
Ile (Mr. Henley) thought it would be desirable to employ
the married men in the coasting trade, because they were
always at home, and it would be a great inducement to them
if, when they came to drill, they could go home to their
Iv:kills:0 every night. But tho Admiralty did not say that ;