The Sun.
London, England, 1860-08-25 00:00:00

run SUN, 'LONDON, SATURDAY lEVENING, AUGUST 25, 1860.

wished to state that the report of the Commission relative
to the Post-office could not possibly be laid on the table this
session.

POOR RATES, &c.

On the motion of Mr. J. WHITE, the following return
was ordered :—That the Return 11. of male occupiers in
Parliamentary cities and borough, 124, of the present ses-
sion of Parliament, be amended so as to include the cor-
rected numbers of male occupiers at £6 and under £lO, in
certain cities and boroughs, as laid before the select com•
mittee of the House of Lords on the elective franchise on
the 6th day of June, 1860, by the Poor Law Board ; and
that the return, as amended, should contain information
arranged according to the annexed form.
GARIBALDI.

Mr. E. JAMES asked whether any official information
had been received of the landing of General Garibaldi in
Calabria, and the capture by his troops of the town of
Reggio.
Lord PALMERSTON replied in the negative.
THE AUSTRALIAN POSTAL SERVICE.
In reply to Mr. HENNESSY,
Mr. LAING said that the present Government thought
that the system of ocean postage had been pushed to an
extreme, and that it was not intended to carry out the views
of their predecessors in regard to this matter.
AUSTRIA AND NORTHERN ITALY.

Mr. BUTT referred to statements that have appeared in
the contihental journals-Ist. That the Austrian Govern-
ment has intimated to that of Turin that they would treat
the landing of Garibaldi in the Neapolitan dominions as a
eausus belli between Austria and Northern Italy ; 2. That
Austria had engaged or tendered support to the King of
Naples, by armed intervention, against any attempt at re-
volution ; To ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether
her Majesty's Government had received any information of
such a menace being addressed to the Court of Turin, or
such an engagement or offer having been made to that of
Naples ?
Lord PALMERSTON said that the Austrian Govern-
ment did not intend to interfere in the transactions going
on in Italy, but were determined to defend their own fron-
tiers. There was no ground for supposing that any such
communication as'that alluded to had taken place.
DIVORCE COURT BILL.
This bill was read a third time and passed.
TRUSTEES AND MORTGAGEES, &c., BILL.
The amendments to this bill were considered and agreed
to, and the bill was ordered for third reading.
CONJUGAL RIGHTS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
The consideration of the Lords' reasons for disagreeing
with the Commons' amendments to this bill, which was on
the orders of the day, was postponed until to-morrow.
PUBLIC BUSINESS.

On the formal motion that the house adjourn till Mon-
day,

Mr. T. DUNCOMBE moved the following resolution as
a standing order :—" That on the question of adjournment
from Friday to Monday, all discussion shall be confined to
questions relating to the intended business of the following
week, or to matters of public urgency demanding immediate
attention." He complained of the present practice that
prevailed of bringing forward miscellaneous subjects which
were not of a pressing character on Friday, to the delay of
public business.
Sir G. C. LEWIS agreed with the hon. member (Mr.
Duncombe), but as the matter would be referred to a com-
mission, and as there was a thin attendance of members, he
considered it would not be advisable to discuss the question
at present.

After some conversation the subject dropped.
FOREIGN AFFAIRS.

Mr. KINNAIRD moved the adjournment of the house,
in order to call attention, before the session closed, to the
long-talked-of Conference of the great Powers on the sub-
ject of Savoy. The calm dignity, forbearance, and firm-
ness manifested by Switzerland with reference to the an-
nexation of Chablais, Faucigny, and Geneva, neither
seduced by promises nor shaken by menaces, had been such
as to call forth general admiration. (Hear, hear.) The
neutrality of Switzerland was guaranteed, in the interests
of peace, by all the great European Powers in 1815. Pied-
mont, too, bound herself to Switzerland by the treaty of
March 16, 1816, never to alienate the provinces in question
to any third Power. But it was a manifest absurdity to
suppose that any portion of a great empire like France could
really remain neutral, and consequently the possession of
these provinces by such an empire would be a standing
menace to the security and independence of Switzerland.
(Hear.) It was a guard against such a danger that provi-
sion was made in the treaty of 1815 for the neutrality of the
three provinces. Two things were essential to the neu-
trality of any State—the wish and the power to be so. Now,
Switzerland was weak on the side of Savoy. A frontier
easy of defence was necessary to her existence, and on that
side she has no frontier that she could defend. The Powers
of Europe, therefore, gave her a military and strategic fron-
tier besides her political one. It was for the maintenance of
this that Switzerland appealed to the public opinion of
Europe, and he hoped that the session would not close
without an assurance from the noble lord that the Con-
ference which had been promised would speedily be held.
(Hear, hear.) It was not simply a matter of treaty but u
question of natural right. They all knew that these pro-
vinces were naturally connected Winn awitzeriand, and that
all their produce and trade found an outlet at Geneva and
the canton. It was not, therefore, a questiOn of treaty
but of natural right which had thus been aggressively
taken from them. (Hear, hear.) lie believed that
Switzerland was entitled to thanks of Europe for the
manner in which she had maintained her rights. If, in
addition to great foresight, she had not acted with great
prudence and moderation, it was impossible to say what
would have been the consequences to Europe. (Hear.) It
would bo in the recollection of the house that when his hon.
friend first asked the Government whether there was any
intention to annex Savoy and Nice hardly any one believed
it. They were indebted to Switzerland for first calling the
attention of Europe to this act of aggression. At the time
when the question was first put by his hon. friend he was
one who placed implicit confidence in the speech at Milan of
the Emperor of the French, and in the statement of Count
Cavour, that Sardinia would neither cede, sell, or exchange
that property which she was bound by special treaty with
Switzerland to hold. He therefore scarcely gave credence
that such an act of aggression was actually in contempla-
tion. He thought that Switzerland acted nobly in refusing
to treat alone with the Emperor of the French. Switzer-
land' putting aside her individual interests, determined not
to accept anything from the Emperor, but to stand by her
rights. He trusted that those rights would be brought be-
fore a Conference of the great Powers, and he believed it
would then be shown that might was not right, and that
there was justice in the cause and in the policy which Swit-
zerland had adopted. He did not wish to detain the house at
that period of the session. He would only say that the cir-
cumstances which had occurred, and the circumstances
which were occurring, showed that the Government ought
to be prepared for .all eventualities. It was a remarkable
fact that not many months ago news came from across the
Channel that the Emperor of the French was already weary
of Dalian affairs and that they would soon hear of great
events in the East. They little thought at that time how
soon the fearful.massacres in Syria would follow, and how
circumstancs would arise which seemed to call on France to
occupy that country. When they looked at affairs in Italy
they must feel how important it was that England should be
prepared. He trusted that the report that Austria was about
to take active measures against the rising liberties of Italy
was untrue, and that it was, as they bad heard, the fixed in-
tention of Austria to remain, unless attacked, in the Quadri-
lateral. He hoped that those who conducted the Italian
cause would still maintain the moderation which they had
hitherto exhibited, and that nothing would happen to cause
them to regret the progress which Italitin liberty had made,
and which had given the greatest satisfaction to every mem-
ber of the house and to every one in the country. (Hear.)
Ho wished to put the question of which he had given no-
tice—" Whether definitive arrangements had been made for
assembling the Conference proposed to be held at the in-
stance of the Swiss Confederation; and, if not, whether it
was the intention of her Majesty's Government to recognise
the annexation of Savoy and Nice as a valid act, forming
part of the public law of Europe ; also, whether any other
of the five great Powers were acting in this matter in con
junction with her Majesty's Government ?"

The SPEAKER haying put tie question that the house
do now adjourn,

Mr. KINGLAKE rose and said—There was, I believe,
an understanding that before the close of the session some
opportunity should be given to us for raising a discussion on
foreign affairs, and although I cannot say, looking at the
empty state of the house, that the present opportunity is a
very promising one, I am anxious, if the house will so far in-
dulge me, to address to it a few observations on the subject.
I think it will be admitted, by her Majesty's Ministers and
by the house in general, that those who are accustomed to
take an interest in foreign affairs have not been wanting in
forbearance towards the Government, and have not been
guilty of anything like undue intrusion on the time of the
house,
.for we must remember that the present state of
affairs in Europe is one of an unusually critical kind.
(Cheers.) I cordially agree with every word which has
been said by my hon. friend the member for Perth with re-
gard to the conduct of the Swiss Confederation. lam
bound to say that in the earliest stage of the transaction
which was the subject of my hon. friend's speech Switzerland
perceived the danger in which she was placed. She com-
municated that danger at the earliest time to all those on
whose friendship she was entitled to count, and from that
hour to the present she has never for one moment swerved
in the earnestness of her endeavour to preserve her own
rights and to protect the true interests of Europe. (Hear.)
She has never for a moment forgotten that vital as the
question was to her the question was one of deep impor-
tance to Europe. (Hear, hear.) And, therefore, when-
ever pressed, whether by the menace or, as my hon, friend
termed it, by the cajolery of her powerful neighbour, she

has always answered that the question, though vital to her,
was also a European question, and by the great Powers of

Europe her rights and interests were to be judged. (Hear,
hear.) It is very true that this question of the annexation

of Savoy and Nice has disturbed Europe, but I must say
that it is right that it should be so, for I cannot conceive
anything more lamentable than that a great wrong of this
description should be perpetrated to the prejudice of a weak
but deserving power such as Switzerland, and Europe
should stand by acquiescing in such a transaction. (Cheers.)
My hon. friend behind me, the gallant member for Lis-

keard, in the course of some discussion which took place on in sending home me or two of these rifles marked with such
the question of fortifications, more than once addressed to a stamp, we shall hve one clue to the cause of the dis-
the Government a very pregnant question. To that ques- turbances. There is ,pother clue to which I think I may
Hon he never received any answer, because the question venture to direct Lore Dafferin's attention. For 'a long
was one which could be more conveniently answered or time there has been puLlished at Beyrout an Arabic
commented upon by an independent member of Parliament newspaper. That nenspaptr contains articles, couched
than by a Minister of the Crown. My gallant friend asked in very bitter and ferocious terms, having a ten-
why it was that the report of the Commissioners having dency to incite the Christians 'gain,
the Drues, and
been placed in the hands of the Government so early as the also to irritate them against the nnglish, on account, I
month of February no application was made to the house suppose, of the impression which certaaly prevails in those
to act on these recommendations until the month of July. countries, that the English are the erients of the Druses.
My answer is that between the month of February and the lam told that this newspaper, although
month of July a momentous change took place in the state rout, is printed in one of the capitals of Eurore ; and if that
Pa-dished at Bey-
of European affairs. I ventured, as early as the month of is so—if this journal is printed in a city where et, would be
February, to warn the house that when the Emperor of the hardly safe or profitable for private individuals to engage
French proposed to break through the public law of Europe in such a manufacture without the consent of the Gwern_
he was doing that which would place us all in a new condition ment—then I think we shall have another clue to the anal
—he was doing that which effected a transition, if I may so cause of the disturbances. e pee-
express it, from right to might, and it became certain, mission of the house lam nowear, anxihous to say Wit ah f thew words
in my opinion, that if he should carry out the purpose with on the subject of Italy. (Hear.) Sir, the public prints
which we were then menaced we should hear less of treaties inform us this day—though, as it seems, the Government
and less of negotiations, and a great deal more of fortifica- have received no official communication of the fact—that
tions, battalions, batteries, and all the implements of war. General Garibaldi has effected a landing in Calabria, and
(Cheers.) So it has turned out, and that I think is the an- for a long time there has been an impression, founded upon
swer to the question of nay hon. friend. (Hear.) The truth the collapsed state of the Government of Naples, that Gene-
is, that the annexation of these countries, evenif it had been ral Garibaldi may succeed in displacing the Government,
assented to by England, would have been a very grave af- probably going much further, and, if one may use a military
fair, but it took place contrary to the declared recommenda- phrase, " rolling up" the greater part of Italy. It is also
tion of England, and when it took place, I may say, in the given out that when this consummation is effected move-
teeth of the English Government, it became a transaction molts will also be directed against Venetia. At such a
of momentous importance. It took place at a time when moment it was natural that Austria should be very vigilant.
Parliament was sitting, and I do think that if at such a Everybody must admit that where you see an enemy pre-
time we had, remained silent we should have been guilty of paring to attack you you are not always bound to wait un-
a shameful abandonment of our duty ; and I will do her til the attack takes place. That is a maxim that prevails
Majesty's Ministers the justice to say that I believe they all over the world, but as a matter of policy of course you
shared in that opinion. (Hear, hear.) It is natural for need not act upon it if your opponent is vastly inferior to
Ministers to dislike being interfered with. All men in pos- yourself in strength. I have heard, therefore, with the
session of power naturally like to exercise it with as little greatest satisfaction that Austria, notwithstanding reports
extraneous advice as possible. But her Majesty's Ministers to the contrary, has determined not to interfere with any of
must do those who acted with me in these matters the jus- General Garibaldi's operations either in Naples or in the
tice to say, that not only did we do right in calling the at- Papal States. That is a determination which places the
tention of the house to them, but that we should have done Emperor of Austria in a most admirable position towards
wrong had we failed to take that course. I will not say that Europe. Considering the antecedents of Austria, I think
the urgency of those protests had any effect upon her Ma- the fact that she has arrived at such a conclusion entitles
jesty's Ministers, for I believe it is a truer and more gene- her to great praise for the moderation and wisdom which
rous view of the matter to say, that they who are English- she is thus displaying. (Hear, hear.) One of my princi-
men like ourselves were sharers, from the beginning, in pal reasons for now venturing to address the house is my
the feelings which influenced us, and that the principles we desire to express an earnest hnpo that, beyond
were venturing to inculcate—if not finally adopted by them the acquisition of Naples and Rome, no wild attempt will
—were inchoate in their minds and on the point of being be made by Gen. Garibaldi against Venetia. I am speak-
adopted. Accordingly, when the 26th of March came we ing on the assumption that France will not interfere ; and I
bad the gratification of hearing that the Government say that if the Italians, unassisted by France, ventured to
were sharers in those opinions which we had humbly yen- assail the great Quadrilateral which repelled the Emperor
tured to urge upon them. The purport of the famous de- of the French, common prudence must lead us to fear that
claration of the 26th of March was simply this—it an- such an attempt could not be made with any fair chance of
nounced distrust of France and the determination of Eng- success. If it failed what would be the position of Italy ?
land not to keep aloof from other Powers. I recollect the Why, Austria, bursting forth from the Quadrilateral, and
Secretary of t•-tate for Foreign Affairs pronounced these claiming the right to pursue those who attacked her,
momentous words in a significant but low tone , but all would, unless some miracle prevented her, overrun with
Europe listened to what he said, and it was not long before great ease the vale of Lombardy, and would reach, with-
that important declaration produced the fruits which it was out any serious difficulty, the gates of Turin itself.
calculated to bear. At the time that declaration was made I think, therefore, that the most ardent friends of
there was nothing like union throughout Germany, but no Italy must, if they have any prudence in them, join in
sooner was it known that England was distrustful of France the hope that no attempt beyond the one I have referred
and was turning to other Powers, than the States of Ger-
many not only determined among themselves that each to will be made by General Garibaldi. It is suggested,
I know, that Venetia should be transferred to the Italian
would separately express an inclination toturn towards Eng- people by purchase or in some such way. There are many
land, but their language among themselves was of the most who look upon the possession by Austria of any territory in
simple and practical kind. They said, as long as we are the north-east of Italy as the greatest possible eyesore. But
disunited we are hardly worthy to proffer, ourselves for the experience we have had of modern transfer by one coun-
an English alliance—let us be united among ourselves, let try to another—the transfer, for example, of Savoy and
us be able to say that Germany against the foreigner will ZTice to France—does not make me at all desirous to see con-
act as one, and then we shall be in a condition to proffer to duct of that kind imitated by the Emperor of Austria. I
England a German alliance. I rejoice to see that that prin- am bound also to say that the annexation of Savoy and Nice
ciple was acted on at Baden, and was carried to a comple- has brought into a new light the importance of the great
tion the other day at Toplitz. If the existing state of things Quadrilateral to Austria. Every one acquainted with min-
is satisfactory in comparision with that which existed before tary operations in that part of the world knows that the
we owe it in part to Germany, and in part to the determi- occupation of Switzerland gives to any country the power, so
nation of this house, one reacting, if I may so speak, on the to speak, of rolling up all the defences on the Rhine. The oc-
other. It is a subject of congratulation that Germany is cupation of Switzerland is, therefore, of the deepest import-
now united; we are entitled to take a little pride that ante in the event of a war between France and Germany.
this house has found means in a worthy manner to It is vital, indeed, because it is on the flank. (Hear.) Since
cause its opinion to be once more heard with respect in the annexation of tho neutralised provinces we are bound to
Europe. (Hear, hear.) Anterior to the Treaty of Turin the see how the neutrality of Switzerland can best be maintained.
situation of the Emperor of the French in Europe was one of The question is one which affects this country deeply, be-
immense weight. Germany was disunited, Russia is known cause the noble lord the Foreign Secretary has stated that
at that time to have approached, at all events, to something her Majesty's Government would feel bound to maintain the
like an understanding with France, and the alliance, or, at neutrality and independence of Switzerland, which again so
all events, the cordial understanding which had for some vitally affect the defence of the Rhine; But quis eustodiet
time existed between France and England had placed France ipsunt eustodem ? Who shall be the safeguard of this safe-
in such aposition that she was relieved from all anxiety with guard ? In point of fact, I believe it will be found, in any
regard to her sea communications. The consequence was struggle between Germany and Franco, that the first ques-
that, being able to wield her immense military force by land tion which will arise will be whether the neutrality of Swit-
and to move as she chose by sea, France had acquired so zerland can or cannot be maintained, and the means by
great an ascendancy in Europe as to cause the deepest which it is to be maintained are the possession of the Quad-
anxiety to all those who are accustomed to attribute im-
portance rilateral. lam glad to see the hon. and gallant officer opposite
to the balance of power. (Hear, hear.) The Treaty (Sir F. Smith), and I think he will confirm what I believe is
of Turin was signed—signed, as I have said, in defiance, the opinion of most officers, that the best support of the neu-
so to speak, of England. The result is that the Emperor trality of Switzerland is a strong power in the direction of the
of the French has these provinces which he has now gone, great Quadrilateral. I will only further say that, having
it is said, to visit. No doubt the Savoyard battalions made great sacrifices in the way of armaments, I think it
and the seaboard of Nice and the adjacent country are ac- would be intolerable if what we are doing by our arms-
quisitions of groat importance—no doubt, also the frontier, meats should be defeated by anything like a perverse aye-
menacing to Italy and menacing to Germany, is a matter tern of alliances. lam of opinion that there is no country
of deep Importnnoo , but, on the other hand, it is to be op- whose Interests are more cowpatthio with those of Engiaou
served that in exchange for these acquisitions the friend- than France. (Hear.) It is true that Franco is a great
ship of England has been converted into that avowed dis- country, and in one sense is a rival country, but the ex-
trust which was expressed on the 26th of March in words, perience of the years which elapsed between the termination
and which has since been expressed still more significantly of the last war and 1852 show that the interests of the two
by our armaments. (Hear.) Moreover, Germany, now countries are perfectly compatible. During the whole of
united and alarmed, is making her preparations on her that period there was hardly any dispute which was not of
eastern frontier, and the countries more immediately bor- what I may call a dynastic character. For instance, when
dering on France—Switzerland and Belgium—have been first after the congress of Vienna was peace threatened ?
so thoroughly alarmed by the proceedings of the Emperor It was by the Spanish marriages, and no one will say that
that I think we have no reason to fear anything like lan- the interests of France were concerned in that affair. I re-
guid acquiescence on their part. (Hear.) If I am en- peat that the interests of England and France are quite
titled to assume, as I trust I am, that the answer of the compatible, and that all wo desire is that the Government
noble lord to the second branch of my hon. friend's of France should be animated by principles truly and de-
question will be such as we have a right to expect—if we are cidedly French ; but when the Government neglects the
to be told, as I trust we shall be, that although England did true interests of France, and proceeds to look after merely
not think fit to resist that annexation by force, yet she will dynastic objects, then the alliance between the two coun-
nevertheless decline to recognise it, then it is very important tries is endangered. As longas a truly French policy is pur-
to observe the change which is thus effected in the position sued there is nothing to bring that country into conflict
of the Emperor of the French ; because, whereas he was be- with England ; but when it becomes a pursuit of what I
fore not merely recognised fully as an equal Sovereign, if I may call Bonapartist ideas, and when France, forgetting her
may so express it, but the ally of England, now the recog- true interests, suffers her Government to remain in the
nition of his character as Emperor of that which he consi- hands of men who pursue a tradition of the past with a
ders the French empire is, in a sense, qualified, for I trust view to aggrandise a particular family, then I say that
we shall hear that the British Government is not prepared necessarily and inevitably the two countries must be rent
to do any formal act which shall amount to a recognition of asunder, as it is impossible that England should follow
this annexation. (Hear, hear.) For instance, if it should France in such a course. I have now only to thank the
happen that our Consul at Nice were to die er to resign, house for its attention, and to express a hope that the an-
then I trust we may beassured that the English GoYernment swer of the noble lord will be satisfactory. (Hear.)
would not ask an exequatur from the Emperor of the French PERSIA.
for any new consul in his place. (Hear, hear.) lam anxious Mr. H. SEYMOUR, in rising to ask a question relative
to say a few words on the subject of Syria. It was my fate to Persia, took the opportunity to observe that an answer of
many years ago to bo a traveller in that country, and one the noble lord (Palmerston) to a question ho had asked re-
finds that when one has become personally acquainted with specting the Pasha of Egypt appeared to be inconsistent
a distant country one is apt to keep up one's knowledge, with one of the articles of the treaty of 1840. By that ar-
and even after a great lapse of time, one's interest in it is tide the Pashalic of Egypt was placed upon the same foot-
frequently continued. In several discussions which have ing as all other pashalics with respect to revenue, but no
taken place here on this subject I have heard the noble lord other governor of a Turkish province had the power of bor-
at the head of the Government taunted for the part which rowing upon the Customs' revenue. The noble lord said the
he took in 1840 in displacing Mehemet Ali from Syria. We Pasha of Egypt had not exceeded his powers in raising a
have been told that Mehemet Ali was an excellent and vi- loan; but if that doctrine were correct there could be no
gorous governor who maintained order in that country, and reason why one pasha should not mortgage the revenues for
that we did very wrong—the gallant member for Southwark 20 years to come. The interests of the pashas would natu-
made the observation, Ithink, whenwe took measures which rally induce them to raise money, because the succession
had the effect of displacing him. It is rather singular for was not to the oldest son, but to the oldest male of the
those who are filled with horror at the Turks and at mas- family, and consequently each pasha made a purse for his
sacres to come forward and befriend this man Mehemet Ali. family. At present the power of the Pasha of Egypt was
I was in that country at the thee when his power was absolute, and exceeded even that of the Sultan in Constan-
in full force, and I say his reign was simply a reign of tinople. It would be very desirable that the treaty should be
terror. He was a Turk, and a Turk of the most ferocious revised in those portions which related to the succession and
kind, and probably the most wicked of all the massacres the powers of the pashas. With respect to Syria, he would
which have occurred in this country was a massacre perpe- only express a hope that the Government would take a de-
trated by Mehemet Ali. He invited to a banquet at his tided course, for he anticipated that there would be a rising
castle all the Mamelukes of Egypt—the aristocracy of the from Bagdad to Egypt if exemplary punishment were not
country—the men who had been in a rude way the deposi- dealt out to the offenders in the late events. A remarkable
tories of the governing power, and when he had them all in letter appeared afew days since, which showed that in Egypt
the courtyard of his castle he caused them all to be massa- Christians and Europeans were exposed to the insults of the
cred ; so that to the cruelty and bloodthirstiness of porpe- Turkish soldiers, and the same feeling pervaded all the coun-
trating a massacre there were added the treachery and tries in that part of the world. He was assured that the born-
wickedness of a host who murders his own guests. (Hear.) bardment of Jeddah, so much condemned by some phi-
Therefore we might have been spared anything like taunts lanthropists at home, had prevented a rising at
for displacing such a man from the government of Syria. Damascus and other places. He wished to call
There has been, too, a good deal of unfairness towards the the attention of the house to our relations with
Ottoman Government in these discussions. It is impossible Persia—a subject of considerable importance at the
to overstate the poltroonery—for I believe that was, in fact, present time. Sir H. Rawlinson was sent out under the
the real cause—of the wretched Turkish officers who stood East India Company with a sufficient staff, but when he
by while the horrors of which we complain were being per- arrived he found himself transferred to the rule of the Fo-
petrated ; but if we ascend higher in the chain of causation, reign-office, and his staff was taken away. Unfortunately,
and ask what the causes really were, I am afraid that, there was no one attached to the Persian embassy who was
instead of being able to fix the responsibility on the acquainted with the local affairs of that country, while
Turkish Government, it is to the Powers of Europe persons who were well acquainted with them, and who had
that the responsibility will in a great degree attach. In been educated with a view to such knowledge at the public
1842 or 1843, and at a time when Lord Aberdeen held expense, were wasting their time at home in compulsory
the seals of the Foreign-office, changes were pressed upon idleness. Mr. Alison had to encounter in Persia the oppo-
the Turkish Government in regard to the management of sition of the Russian Minister—a man who had been 22
the Lebanon. First, the Porte was urged to appoint a se- years in that country, had a thorough knowledge of its
parate Kaimakan for the Druses and the Maronites, so that affairs, was extremely agreeable and insinuating in his
in point of fact we called on the Turkish Government to manners, but at the same time very firm. He had also
allow, not an imperiunt in imperio, but two imperia in immense means at his disposal, and was able to give pre-
imperio, those two imperia being embittered in their feeling seats, which our embassy was not allowed to bestow. It
towards each other by s traditional hostility. (Hear.) In would be seen therefore that the British embassy at Tehe-
the perverseness of our recommendations we did not stop ran laboured under great disadvantages. At the present
there. .We required Turkey to abstain from having troops in time there were important questions to be settled with Rus-
the mountains, so that we provided not only that these hostile sin. The Russian Government was anxious to possess the
tribes should be perpetuallyconfronting each other, but that provinces to the south of the Caspian, where Persia main-
the Ottoman Government should withdraw the very means tained a military establishment for the purpose of chastising
by which the Druses and Maronites might be prevented from the turbulence of the Turcoman A, who were Persian subjects.
coming into conflict. Now, surely after the European He had learnt from private information that the Russian
Powers have taken upon themselves theresponsibility of in- Government proposed to withdraw their embassy from
terfering in that way with the affairs of the Lebanan, they Teheran unless Persia consented to give up her control of
cannot very fairly turn round upon Turkey and accuse her of these Turcomans. (Hear.) Every encroachment of Russia
having permitted disturbances which, in a sense, may be in that direction affected the interests of England in the
traced to the advicepressed by them upon the Porte. With East, and unless care was taken to check these encroach-
regard to the immediate cause of these massacres, I desire to merits we should rue our negligence, perhaps, when it was
abstain from expressing any opinion ; but there are two or too late. He trusted that the noble lord would give the
three circumstances which will serve as a clue, and will house the means, by the production of papers or otherwise,
enable Lord Dufferin to ascertain what I may call the final of obtaining authentic and official information on these sub-
cause of these disasters. If lam rightly informed, a vast. jects. (Hear, hear.)
quantity of rifles were not long ago 'distributed among Sir G. BOWYER agreed in what had been said as to the
the Maronites. (Hear, hear.) Now I have never seen annexation of Savoy and Nice being an outrage on the part
one of those rifles, but, if the information which reaches me of France and a disgrace to the illustrious House of Savoy;
be correct, it will turn out that they are not the rifles of , but he wished to ask whether the annexation of Tuscany,
commerce, but bear upon them a stamp which shows that I Parma, and the other duchies, and especially of a portion of
they came from the Government stores of a European the dominions of the Holy See, was not equally an outrage
country. If that is the case, and if Lord Duffsrin succeed on the public law of Europe. It was the fashion...to speak

in terms of admiration of Gen. Garibaldi—(hear)—but he
wished to know whether the proceedings of Garibaldi were
not wholly subversive of the public law of Europe. Gari-
baldi sailed from Genoa, with the full knowledge of the
Sardinian Government, at the head of a body of filibusters,
consisting of refugee Poles and Hungarians and Sardinians,
many of them very desperate characters, and made an at-
tack on Sicily. He had no authority from any Sovereign
to do so ; he was not in any sense a lawful belligerent, and
by the law of nations, therefore, was a pirate. Indeed, a
more daring act of piracy never was committed than that
which he committed on the dominions of the King of Na-
ples. He was successful in his attack on Sicily, and it was
now stated that he meant to attack Naples in the same way.
Would not this be also an outrage on the public law of
Europe ? He was convinced from what he knew of Italy
that nothing could be more offensive to the Neapolitans
than an attack from Sicily, as there was no friendly feeling
between the Sicilians and Neapolitans. If the Neapolitans
had grievances to complain of against their King—and he
believed these were much exaggerated—let them be re-
dressed by themselves. Tho King of Naples had granted a
constitution to his subjects. (A laugh.) Gentlemen might
laugh, but there was nothing to show that the Neapolitans
were dissatisfied with that constitution. He believed it
would not work—(hear)—because what he called a consti-
tution was not a thing in accordance with the genius of the
people, or the history and requirements of the country.
Nobody loved constitutional government more than he did
in this country, but it did not follow that, because constitu-
tional government was suited to this country, it should be
set up everywhere else. Garibaldi was going, it was said,
to Naples to destroy the constitution, and dethrone the
King of Naples, and annex the country to that of Sardinia.
Would not that be a gross violation of the public law of
Europe ? But, not stopping here, they were told that
Garibaldi, after succeeding at Naples, was to attack the
dominions of the Holy See. (Hear, hear.) Would that be
in accordance with the public law of Europe ? What cause
could be given for so gross an outrage, so unprincipled a pro-
ceeding ? He asked whether, with the knowledge of such
an intention on the part of Garibaldi, General Lamoriciere
would not be justified in marching against him before he
left Naples. General Lamoriciere was not bound to wait
for him in these circumstances. It was said Garibaldi was
going to attack Venetia also. (Hear, hear.) If so, Austria
' would be justified in attacking him before he reached
Venetia. Thcy were told that Austria did not intend to
interfere with Garibaldi till -Venetia was attacked, but that
was only a matter of prudence. He was not present at a
meeting of the friends of the noble lord at the head of the
Government, but he understood that the noble viscount ap-
plauded the success of the foreign policy of his Government.
and said it was one entitled to the confidence of Parliament
and the country. (Hear, hear.) The noble viscount gave as
one proof of this that ho was informed General Garibaldi
had landed on the territory of the King of Naples. Now, the
King of Naples had a Minister at this Court and was at
peace with this country. Was ever such a thing done as for
the head of the Government to express his approbation of
an act of piracy—(no, no)—committed against a Sovereign
with whom we were at peace ? With regard to the sympathy
of her Majesty's Government fcr General Garibaldi there
could be no doubt of it, and whatever moral support that it
was in their power to give had been given to that expe-
dition. Hon, members opposite invoked the public law of
Europe when it suited them, but when it was against them
they did not care a halfpenny for it and trampled it under
foot. Suppose, for example, Garibaldi had turned his eyes
upon the lonian Islands. There was an oppressed nation-
ality that had demanded to be united to Greece. Her
Majesty's Government put down the natives of the lonian
Islands by force, and flogged, hanged, and shot them to any
extent rather than admit their claim to say what Govern-
they would belong to. Parliament was told that every
country was to decide for itself how it was to be governed.
Why, then, did the Government not convene an assembly
in the lonian Islands to determine how they were to be
governed ? If Garibaldi went there the Government would
say the public law of Europe was violated and that Gari-
baldi was a pirate, but when he went to Naples they
applauded him. There was a man lately in India very much
like Garibaldi. He was a brave patriotic man, called Tantia
Topee. (Oh, oh, and a laugh.) He kept the British army
at bay and gave them a vast amount of trouble. He was,
however, taken prisoner and brought to a court-martial on a
charge of rebellion against British authority. The Go-
vernment of India hanged that man. He thought that an
atrocious act. He knew it was said he was implicated in
some outrages against the Europeans. (Hear.) But he
was not charged on his trial with an! thing except treason
and with having resisted the English Government.
He died like a patriot. He had fought for his
country. He wished to drive the British out of the
country, and to preserve India for the Indians. If
the King of Naples took General Garibaldi he would
have as good a right to hang him as the Govern-
ment of India had to hang Tantia Tepee. It was pretended
that the Italian duchies had declared for annexation with
Sardinia because they were badly governed. But it was ac-
knowledged that Parma was ruled by a wisp and excellent
Princess, who governed her subjects well and justly. Parma
was treated like the rest, and therefore the badness of these
Governments were proved to be not the cause of the annexa-
tion.. The cn, ernmene, or 1 uscany was a nine cos ee
(Oh, oh.) It had, however, been overturned by a "conspi •
racy, headed by the Sardinian Minister accredited to that
very Court. (Hear.) The Minister of Sardinia at Rome
had also conspired against the Papal Government, and it
was by intrigues that the overthrow of the power of the
Holy See was attempted in the Legations. Hon. members
ought to blush—(a laugh)—to talk of the public law of
Europe under such circumstances. He believed that the re-
sult of these annexations would be the ruin of that Italian
freedom of which hon. members were so fond. He, too,
wished to see Italy great, glorious, and pro*rous, but he
believed that would be hest attained by a federal system,
which would unite the whole country without injuring the
rights of its Sovereigns. That object would, however, cer-
tainly not be attained by the utter destruction of the prin-
ciples on which the peace of Europe rested and upon which
society itself was founded. lie believed that if the King
of Sardinia should succeed in all his schemes of annexation
his monarchy would fall to pieces in our own time like a
house of cards. lie had before said that the annexations
going on would be the ruin of the House of Savoy, and he
was confirmed in this belief. At the present moment he
knew, upon good authority, that the greatest discontent
prevailed in the newly-annexed provinces of Sardinia.
In Tuscany the people had to be kept down by the Pied-
rnontese troops, and, as for liberty, there was none. The
people dared not read written communications, far less
speak what they thought. The overthrow of the legiti-
mate Sovereign was brought about by means of the coercion
exercised by the secret societies who now held undisputed
sway in Italy. He thought it very probable that Gene-
ral Garibaldi would succeed in overthrowing the King
of Naples—(cheers)—because the Neapolitans were not a
warlike people and could not cope with the band of ferocious
filibusters whom Garibaldi commanded. (A laugh.) Sup-
pose so much accomplished, what would follow ? Garibaldi
was pledged to attack the Roman States, but there he would
meet the French army, Possibly he would have to aban-
don that part of his programme ; but he could hardly avoid
fulfilling his pledge to attack Venetia. In that enterprise
Sardinia would be obliged to join him. The people had been
so excited by the dream of nationality—a dream for which
torrents of blood had been shed, and which had been a
source of misery rather than happiness to the mass of the
people—that dream had been so much encouraged by
speeches made by the noble viscount and his colleagues—
(hear, hear)—that the people were mad on the subject, and
Sardinia would be compelled to go against Austria.
Whether France would support Sardinia in that attack was
a matter of speculation. As the Emperor of France had
got what he wanted, and as if France supported Sardinia
Germany would support Austria, he thought it likely France
would not interfere. He very much doubted whether the
Italians by themselves would be able to resist the powerful
arms of Austria; and if they were defeated, then that would
happen which had been hinted at by the Constitutionnel, and
Italy would be overrun by Austria from Turin to the South
Neapolitan States. But should France be tempted to
back Sardinia then there would be a general European
war, in which Great Britain would, in all probability, be
involved. For that result, if it arrived, we should have
ourselves to thank. It was the natural consequence of a
policy which set at nought all principles of right and wrong
and acknowledged that the end justified the means. A
universal public profligacy seemed prevalent just now. No
regard was paid to treaties or international law. He hoped
hon. gentlemen would be warned in time, and forbear to
give any further encouragement to the revolutionists in
Italy. Garibaldi, it was well known, had always been a
Republican, and only took up the King of Sardinia now
because he was a tool fit for his purposes. Garibaldi would
probably be seen before long at the head of a Red Repub-
lican movement that would throw everything into confusion
and necessitate the interference of the Powers. The violent
anarchy which the success of the revolutionary cause would
p;oduce would be inevitably succeeded by a despotism sterner
and more powerful than that against which hon. members
exclaimed.

ferred
to it as an event pregnant with the most serious con -
sequences, which it would require all the judgment and care
of the Government to deal with. (Hear, hear.) With regard
to the course which the hon. and learned gentleman indi-
cated as about to be followed by Gen. Garibaldi, I have to
remind him that the King of Naples has an army of 60,600
or 70,000 men, and a fleet very large in comparison withany
which Gen. Garibaldi is able to scrape together. Therefore,
if Gen. Garibaldi should achieve the success which the hon.
and learned gentleman anticipates, it must not be by the force
which he brings to bear against the Government of Naples,
but by the assistance of the people of the country. (Hear,
hear.) It is quite impossible that the force with which
General Garibaldi undertakes the expedition can
obtain success unless he is joined by the inha-
bitants. Whether he will receive that support or
not I leave it to the future to disclose. As to the ques-
tion of my hon, friend the member for Perth, it is well
known that the Conferences referred to were sought by
the Swiss Confederation, and were, more or less, agreed to
by all the other Powers. At the same time various matters
have arisen to delay the meeting of the Congress, and at
present no period is fixed for its assembling. The Treaty
of Turin has not received formal acknowledgment by any of
the Powers—certainly not by this country, and cannot, at
present, be said to form part of the public law of Europe.
The cession of Savoy to France was a very peculiar transac-
tion—(hear, hear). -and does not cola° within the ordinary
category of cession of territory made by one sovereign to
another. The territory of Savoy was held by the King of
Sardinia subject to very peculiar conditions attached to it
by the Treaty of Vienna, to which all the eight Powers of
Europe were parties. It was not competent for the King cf
Sardinia to cede, nor, as I hold, for France to accept that
territory—(hear, hear)—thus emancipating it from the con-
ditions under which it stood as part of the dominions of Sar-
dinia. (Hear, hear.) The conditions had mainly for their
object the preservation of the neutrality and independence
of Switzerland, and it is clear that Savoy, in the hands of
France, stands in a very different position in regard to the
maintenance of the neutrality of Switzerland than when in
the hands of Sardinia. (Hear, hear.) France being a
much stronger Power and differently situated in many re-
spects, there is greater danger to Switzerland from it than
from Sardinia. The cession was objectionable not only on
that account, but on account of the manner in which it
was made. All the circumstances connected with it from
first to last, the denials at one time and avowals at another,
' the promises made, as reported, by the President of Swit-
' zerland in his message of March, the promises made in
January and February by the French Government to the
Minister of Switzerland, that whenever the cession should
be completed Faucigny and Chablais should be transferred
to Switzerland—a promise afterwards retracted, and appa-
rently never intended to be performed—(hear)—all these
circumstances must produce a most painful impression in
the minds of every man in regard to all the parties who
were concerned in the transaction. (General cheering.) It
had certainly produced a painful impression on the minds
of all the other States of Europe--an impression showing
that they considered that, for the future, forethought and
precaution must be the duty of every Power. (Cheers.)
I should hope that the result will be that France will con-
' sider she is bound by a regard to her honour and good faith
to close these transactions in a manner consistent with the
due and complete security and independence of Switzerland.
(Hear, hear.) It is quite true, as my hon. friend has stated,
that the neutrality and independence of Switzerland are for
the interests of all Europe. The Swiss are deserving the
sympathy and goodwill of all the Powers, from the manly
character and spirited independence which they have
always displayed—ineffensive to their neighbours, and ready
to defend themselves against all corners. (Hear:) But it
was not simply and solely from a regard to the Swiss that
the arrangement was made. It was from a wise and well-
considered regard for the general interests of Europe, and
the maintenance, as far as possible, of the peace of Europe.
(Cheers.) I cannot but hope that the French Government
will, on account of the engagements to which France was a
party, on account of the promises which she held out to
Switzerland, and for the Take of the general and future in-
terests of Europe, make some arrangement which will
satisfy the just expectations and guarantee the security of
the Swiss Confederation. (Hear.) It is not necessary that
I should enter further into that branch of the question.
But my hon. friend the member for Bridgewater went at
some length not only into that Swiss question, but also
into those other questions of great importance—the trans-
actions in Syria and Italy. It is deeply to be lamented that
these unfortunate events should have taken place in Syria.
My hon. friend stated facts which have come to his know-
ledge with regard to whence, and through whom, and from
what causes these disturbances originated. Ido not feel it
necessary to follow him in those investigations. The duty
of her Majesty's Government is rather to endeavour to pre-
vent the recurrence of these evils than to scrutinise mi-
nutely the sources out of which they arose. (Cheers.) We
are acting in concert with France, Austria, Russia, and
Prussia, and I hope that steps will be taken which will be
effectual for the purpose we have in view. We believe
that the Turkish Government is sincerely desirous of
taking every step necessary to punish the minty, to ...lco
an example of the offenders, and to lay the foundation
for future tranquillity between those hostile races,
and I cannot but believe that if those measures are
properly taken, they will accomplish the purpose for which
they are intended. (Hear, hear.) Commissioners of whom
Lord Dufferin on our part is one, will go to Syria, collect
information, and suggest such measures as they think best
calculated for the future peace and security of the country.
(Hear, hear.) The hon. member for Poole went a little
further east—to Persia. By the bye, he stopped in Egypt
on the way, and referred to an answer which I gave last
evening as to the power of the Pasha to raise a loan pledged
on the Customs duties of Egypt. The arrangement made
in 1840 and 1841 was this—that the Pasha should pay
given amount of tribute to the Sultan, but that the remain-
ing part of the revenue of Egypt should be at his disposal,
to be employed by him as he pleased. In one sense the
Pasha is limited in his power to mortgage, because the tri-
bute to the Sultan is a prior claim to any engagement which
he may make with regard to any part of the revenue. But
supposing that the tribute is faithfully and fully paid, then
I apprehend the remaining part is for him to spend as he
pleases, or to mortgage for the interest of a loan. With
regard to the tribute itself, it is well known that it was
pledged by the Turkish Government as security for a loan
which Turkey raised ; but I believe the pledge does not go
beyond that tribute. With regard to Persia, I can assure
my hon. friend that we greatly regretted Sir H. Rawlinson
would not continue in the mission at Teheran; but his re-
tirement was his own act, and in no degree arose from any
wish or suggestion of her Majesty's Government. He was
of all men the one who I should say was best qualified to
perform successfully the duties of British Minister at that
Court; and he succeeded in acquiring the goodwill of the
Shah in a manner in which no other British Minister has
been able to acquire it. It is, therefore, a great misfor-
tune that he should have felt it his duty to retire ; but his
retirement, as far as is alleged in his communications to
the Government, is founded on the circumstance that
that mission is transferred from the Indian Government
to the Foreign-office. We thought that, considering our
relations with Persia are so mixed up with our relations
with Russia, Turkey, and the other Powers of Europe,
it was exceedingly inconvenient that communications from
Persia should come through the India-office anel not direct
to the department which alone has cognizance of our rela-
tions with other Powers. (Hear.) With regard to the in-
terference of Russia there has always been a great desire to
establish in Persia a superior influence to that of any other
Power, and I believe that some communications, such as
my hon. friend implies, have passed between the two Go-
vernments with regard to the expedition of the Shah against
the Turcoman territory. But lam bound to say that in
our opinion the nature and extent of the expedition which
the Shah was about to take was beyond what we thought
was for his real interests. It is our opinion, and that of
those by whom our judgment is guided, that the expedition
proposed is beyond the range at which the Shah can use-
fully establish a permanent occupation, and that he will do
much better to content himself with operations of a more
limited character. (Hear.) I may say that our relations
with Persia are of a mos., satisfactory kind. The recollec-
tion of former differences has entirely been effaced. There is
nothing now but the most cordial understanding, founded
on the conviction on the part of the Shah that it is our Wish
and our policy that Persia should be independent and pros.
perous. (Cheers.)

Viscount PALMERSTON—I am not going to follow the
hon. gentleman into a discussion of past events in Italy
during the year which has just elapsed ; neither am I going
to enter into any speculations as to the future. The hon.
gentleman asked, in the beginning of his speech, several
questions as to the interpretation of international law, but
as he was kind enough to give an answer to them himself
it is unnecessary that I should go into them. (A laugh.)
I wish to set him right in regard to a misconception under
which he labours as to what was said by mo at a meeting,
which I am sorry he did not honour with his
.attendance.

(A laugh.) At that meeting I spoke in terms of the highest
praise of the manner in which my noble friend the mem-
ber for the City had conducted the foreign policy of the

country. (Hear, hear.) That expression of mine seemed to
find an answer in the breasts of almost all who were present
on that occasion. (Hear, hear.) But I did not mention as a
proof and result of that policy the landing of Gen. Gari-
baldi in Italy. (Hear, hear.) I stated that as a single fa t,
remarking that the landing would in all probability bring
about events of grave importance, and that it was essential
to enable the Government to deal with those events, when
they might happen, that they should possess the good will
and confidence of those who had hitherto honoured them
with support. (Hear, hear.) I certainly did not claim any
share in the expedition of Cien, Garibaldi, but simply 0.

Mr. D . GRIFFITH thought the Government had bees
inactive for two months on the question of Savoy in the early
part of the session, but acquitted them of any further der
linqueney.

An Hon. Member drew the Speaker's attention to the fact
that there were not 40 members present. The right hon.
gentleman proceeded to count, and there being but 23 mem-
bers present,
The house then adjourned.

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LONDON : Printed and Published by MURDO YOUNG ,
of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at As Sun :Mice, No. 112,,
Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, in the county
Aliddleen, Saturday, August 26, 1860.

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