The Sun.
London, England, 1860-02-03 00:00:00

occur than that which happened in the case of a committee
ever which the hon. member for Stafford presided—viz.,
the committee on our consular establishments. The recom-

mendations of that committee were of great value, and led
to great improvements in our consular system ; but, in so far
as economy was concerned, the result would have been an-
increased expenditure £40,000 or 1L50,000 a year had tha
Government, in revising the consular system, and carrying
out the principles of the committee, not been able to do so

in a lesi expensive way. He referrid to that as affording tho
house a proof of the difference that existed between the ac-
tion of .a committee and the Government. Indeed, he could
hardly recollect an instance in Which a committee had sat

to investigate any matters involving expenditure—such as
harbours of refuge, designs for the :oreig-9.-.oflice, or other

public works—iii Which-the result of theii-labours, however
beneficial to the public; had not opposed the interests of
economy. (Hear, hear.) Another objection to the ap-
pointment of this committee was that all large items on
which the possibility of carrying out an extensive system
of economy mainly turned were devoted to subjects of such
general interest that the house could hardly be expected to
listen to the opinion of any committee in the event of its
recommending a reduction in them. Among these was the
vote for education, by far the largest and most important to
which his hon. friend had referred. The annual increase

that took place in the vote for education alone swallowed up
over and over again all that could be economised in smaller
matters. If they were onlyto have regard to economy nothing
would be easier than to say how far the expenditure could be
cut down ; but, in the case of questions affecting the higher
interests of the country generally other considerations had te)
be attended to,(Hear.) His hon. friend referred to the Woods

and Forests. There, again, a great difficulty—and that a con
stitutional one—stood in the way of such an inquiry as he
suggested. If the Government or the country were absolute
owners of the whole of the Crown property there might be
no difficulty in saying what were best to be done. Pro-
bably it would be to convert the whole of their landed pro-
perty into money, and invest it in securities, where no staff
of officials or foresters would be required to guard it, be-
cause a large landed property scattered all over the king-
dom, including a great amount of waste land, was just thatc
sort of property that required all the supervision and eco-
nomy of a private individual owner to manage it well. They
all knew how the estates of joint stock companies were
ordinarilymanaged, and it was very probable that the State
could not manage such matters better than a joint-stock
company would do. But, then, there was the constitutional
difficulty that the property belonged to the Crown, that we
were not the real owners of it, and were not in a position to
dispose of it. We had only made a bargain with the Crown,
by which we agreed to manage it during the life of the Sove-
reign. The management of the Woods and Forests had,
however, been under the consideration of committees of
that house from time to time. Some years ago a committee
presided over by Lord Duncan took great interest in the sub-
ject, and many improvements were the result of its inves-
tigations. It was admitted that the department was much
better managed now than formerly, and the gentlemen at
the head of it, Mr. Gore and Mr. Howard, were exceedingly
assiduous and attentive to their duties. He knew that they
were anything but extravagantly disposed, and during the
short time he had been in office he was able to say that they
had endeavoured to manage the property in the best possible
manner. (Hear, hear.) He would say, in such circum-
stances, let the house watch the results, and if in course of
time .‘hey were not satisfied, then let a committee be ap-
pointedsto discover abuses and infuse fresh vigour into the
department. Ho believed the appointment of a standing
committee would be open to the objection that it would re-
lieve parties from responsibility to whom they ought to
look for the right discharge of their duties; and he could not
see that, with a responsibility resting partly on a committee
and partly on the Treasury and Woods and Forests, the
system would work well. (Hear.) There only remained
the question regarding the Consolidated Fund, and there
also a difficulty arose on a point of political principle. The
charges on the Consolidated Fund were those that they did
not wish to subject to the fluctuating chances of an annual
vote of the House of Commons. Among these were the
charges for the administration of law and justice, certain
ecclesiastical and theological payments, and the grant to
Maynooth, which were paid out of the Consolidated Fund
to avoid exciting questions being raised in that House. In
considering the appointment of a committee to deal with
these matters with la view to economy, the house should
bear in mind that, on the question of transferring votes of
this kind to the estimates, there was something to be said
on the other side. Instead of leading to economy, it was as
likely that there would be a pressure on them to increase the
votes, so that they might in reality have to pay larger sunis
than when the charges came out of the Consolidated Fund.
He had thus adverted, as shortly as he could, to the reasons
which induced him, while agreeing in the object proposed
by his hon. friend, to doubt whether such a committee as
he had suggested was the best mode of attaining it. In
doing so he had been obliged to point out that the abuses
complained of arose very much from causes heyond the
control of the administrative department; but before sitting
down he was anxious to guard against being understood as
meaning that every thing had been done that ought to be
done to carry out economy in the public expenditure. But
if the Government were supported by public opinion, and
by that house in enforcing economical views, a good deal
might yet be done,—he would not say to return to the esti-
mates of former years, but certainly to arrest that increase,
which, if it went on as at present, would in a very short
time be formidable indeed. Government really could not do
mach unless they were supported by the opinion of the
country. If public opinion, as reflected by that house, was
constantly urging a more liberal expenditure for objects of
admitted utility, which, though, perhaps, separately form-
ing but small items in the estimates, yet made up a con-
siderable aggregate, the Government could not long oppose
a very effectual resistance. But if, on the other hand, they
were supported by the house, there wore some questions on
which a good deal might be done. Tho question. of educa-
tion, to which his hon. friend had referred, was one on which
he did not say considerations of economy were paramount ;
but still he thought, if these were admitted to have due
weight a good deal might be done. If every gentleman in
that house who had a taste for architecture took every op 7
portunity of enforcing it according to his own notions, with
a total disregard of expense, a very large expenditure must
be incurred. seeing the necessity there was for the erection
of many pUblic buildings. In regard to harbours of refuge,
again, there had been a constant pressure from all parts of
the country on the Government for the expenditure of a
large sutra of money ; but if supported, oe ho trusted they
would be, by public opinion and the house enforcing
economy in these matters, he did hope the case was not
altogether desperate. He could assure his hon. friend and
the house that the attention of the Government during the
recess had been most earnestly devoted to this subject. He
might say there was not a vote in the estimates for past
years which he himself had not gone through carefully,
anxious to make reductions. He could not venture to pro-
mise that the result of these reductions would be a very
great diminution in matters which had gone far beyond
control; but he did venture to hope that when the estimates
were produced it would be seen their exertions had not been
altogether useless. He thought the best course the house
could take was to leave the whole responsibility for the pre-
sent on the Government,. watching their progress very
closely, scrutinising very jealously every subject of expen-
diture in the estimates, and if, after giving them a fair trial,
they were not satisfied with the results, let them comedown
on them with a committee, not a standing or annual com-
mittee under which the Government might shelter them-
selves, but a committee whichwould be a reality, and would
bring home to the Government a sense of their responsi-
bility. (Hear, hoar.)
Mr. B AXTER thought both the house and the country
were exceedingly indebted to his hon. friend for bringing
forward this question. He was rather disappointed with
the speech of his hon. friend the Secretary for the Treasury.
Something must be done to check the public expenditure,
and keep it within reasonable bounds. There was an abso-
lute necessity for economising the national expenditure.
Even gentlemen who were inclined to be liberal, if not
lavish, in voting sums of money for the army and
navy, and for the defence of the country, ought most
carefully to scrutinise this expenditure. The hon. Secretary
for the Treasury said it was the duty of every member of
that house to scrutinise the votes as submitted to Parlia-
ment, especially those proposed by the Government. Well,
ever since he had the honour of a seat in Parliament, for
the last five years, he had attended in that house almost
every supply night, and he must say, the conviction forced
itself on his mind that no great benefit would or ever could
result to the cause they all had at heart, of national econo-
my, by debating and 'dividing upon a few of those small
items which formed together our civil service estimates.
During the period to which he had referred he believed he
was correct in stating that, with three or four exceptions,
every vote proposed by the Government had been carried
without reduction, perhaps, in double that number of in-
stances votes had been expunged in oonsequence of there
having been a very narrow run the year before ; but this he
held to be a very small result; and without objecting to
each great subdivision of votes, or reducing each vote care-
fully and seriatim, he did not think mush progress would
be made, or any great reduction effected until gentlemen
who, like his hon. friend and himself, thought the expen-
diture was excessive, took a different course, and adopted
such a plan as this at a very early part of the session, say-
ing to the Government, "We are not prepared to expend
£7,500,000 on the civil service; we think £7,000,000 or
£5,500,000 quite sufficient, and we wish you to form your
estimates on that basis." (Hear, hear.) He held, in
point of fact, that at present the house had no efficient
control over the public expenditure. They ought to throw
on the Government the responsibility of bringing forward
those votes which were absolutely necessary, but with some
such limit as he had suggested. He was disappointed
that the Secretary for the Treasury had not been able to
state that the Government had been enabled very much.
to reduce the civil service expenditure. He had had con-
siderable faith in the right hon. gentleman the Chan-
cellor of thn Exchequer, and he was in hopes that
ho would have devoted his great abilities to this
subject, and with success; for he was firmly convinced,
not only that a great saving might be effected without diffi-
culty or detriment, but with considerable advantage to the
public service. If any one doubted this, let him read the
speech of the right hon. gentleman the member for Buck-
inghamshire upon this subject when last in office, who dis-
tinctly admitted that there was a very great profusion in
the civil service expenditure. Besides, the expurgation of
votes would save a great deal of the precious time of the
house. His hon. friend objected to this committee, and
there was a good deal of force in his objection to it being a
standing committee : but he had looked in vain for anylde-
claration of what the Government intended to substitute.
The house and the country were agreed that the expendi
ture must be checked, and unless the Government were
prepared on their responsibility to tell them that it should
be reduced, he was to a considerable extent shut up to sup-
port the proposition of his hon. friend; and should the re-
sult not be satisfactory he thought it would be the bounden
duty of the house to affirm such resolution as he had sug-
gested. Sure he was the day would come when they would
be forced by public opinion out of doors to devote more at-
tention to this subject than they had hitherto done, and it
would, without doubt, be one of the first great subjects dis-
cussed in the reformed Parliament. He thought they would
show themselves exceedingly shortsighted, if, supposing
there was no economical disposition on the part of the
people, they attempted to blink what, in his mind, was one
of the most important questions which could come under
the consideration of the Legislature. (Hear, heir,)
Tho CHANCELLOR of the.EXCHEQUER—My hon.
friend has stated that ho was not entirely satisfied with the
tone and general effect of the speech of my hon. friend
the Secretary for the Treasury. If that be so, it must
be because my honourable friend the 'Secretary to
the Treasury did not wholly succeed in conveying
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