The Sun.
London, England, 1856-06-20 00:00:00

ARMY ESTIMATES.

On the first vote, an addition to a previous sum of
450,000% far the civil establishments of the army,

Mr. MONSELL said be had to state the reduction which
had been made in the estimate for this branch of the ser-
vice. It had been originally 514,141/., but it had been re-
duced by a sum of 141,0001.; and it had been calculated
that one-half of what was left would be sufficient to meet
the actual expenditure. A sum of 101,0001. only would be
required for the commissariat and civil establishments on
the Bosphorus and in the Crimea ; many of the persons
employed in that department having returned to this
country or being on their way home. It would, however,
still be necessary to have a number of commissariat clerks
on the Bosphorus after the troops had come home, in order
to make up the accounts, and ha was happy to say that he
had reason to believe that the whole accounts of the ex-
penditure of the army in the Crimea could be examined
and audited before the expiration of the year. The remain-
ing amount of 13,000/. or 11,000/. was for a reduced ex-
pense for lodging and furniture allowances, in which item
he believed there would be a considerable reduction, as
steps had bean taken to get rid of places hired for lodging
the militia as rapidly as possible. On the whole, he would
say that the a 50,000/, asked for would be amply suffi-
cient to defray the expenses of the present year.
Col. DUNNE asked whether it was intended to keep up
the War Ministry on its present system, or whether there
was to be a return to the less expansive system of a Secre-
tary at War? He also wanted to know whether the large
clothing and arms departments were to be kept up to a
war establishment while the army was being reduced. He
hoped some explanation would be given as what the con-
stitution of the War Department was to be in time of
peace.

Mr. MMNSELL said he could not hold out any hope of
any great reduction of expendituie in the present year. In
the War Department it was necessary since the peace to
have additioual clerks, in consequence of the great labour
of winding up the business of the department. The only
answer he ceubl give to the other part of the hou. and gal-
lant geutieuren's question was, that undoubtedly the ex-
isting constitution of the War Department was to be kept
up, although Lord Panmure ha I under his con .ideration
great reductions. It was, however, doubtful whezh ,r in
the present year any great reduction could take place.
From the moment that peace was declared the whole at-
tention of the War Department was directed to the pro-
motion of economy.
Mr. WILLIAMS said that there had been no sufficient
opportunity given to the house to see what reductions were
to be in,,de in the War Department. The vote was a most
extraordinary one, as there wasonly a difference of 50,0J0t.
between the expeneitare of a war and peace establishment.
There ought to be a fuller and more satisfactory explana-
tion of the vote given.

Mr. SPOONER wished to have some explanation of an
answer given to a question of his the other night by the
Secretary to the Treasury. Ho had inquired whether any
workmen had boon sent from this country to the gun fac-
tories iu Belgium by the Ordnance, and if so, at what ex-
pense ? The bon. gentleman had replied that no such per-
sons been sent ; whereas it was certain that some
viewers had been seat to Belgium, to the artillery depart-
wont in that county, and others to Liege, to overlook the
manufacture of gn❑ barrels.

Mr. MONSELL said that the misapprehension in ques- '
tion arose from there having been two different sets of per-
sDns sent to Belgium. There were certain viewers sent to
Liege to overlook the manufacture of the arms contracted
for by this country, and some gentlemen connected with the
gun trade at Birmingham had also been sent to Belgium to
view the manufactures, to whom facilities had been given
by the Government, and he was glad to s-ty that he had
received from the gentlemen a very interesting report on the
.iiffereuce between the processes of manufacture at Liege
and Birmingham. We coati not have carried on our con-
tracts without the employment of viewers at Liege in the
same way that viewers were employed on the part of the
Government at Birmingham.

Mr. SPOONER. asked wheOer thoss viewers were ern
ployed to view the gun-barrels only, or did they not in-
struct the manufacturers of Liege so as to enable them to
compete with those of Birmingham? What V 939 the ex-
pense of thoie viewers ? There was no vote for them in
the estimates.

Mr. MONSELL said that the expense of the viewers was
charged under the small-at ms vote. Did the hon. gentle-
man mean to say that they ought not to have gone to Liege
when they wore in great want of arms, and when they could
not get all they wanted from Birmingham ? The viewers
did not instruct the workmen as to the character of the
arms which the English Government would receive.
Mr. SPOONER said the deficient supply of arms from
Birmingham was only caused by the manner in which the
orders for them were given_ If the Government sent to
Belgium for arms they should have been viewed in this
country, and they should not have allowed instructions to
be given to the Belgian manufacturers which would enable
theta to compete with those of this country. The pay of
the viewers in question ought not to have been included
in the small anus vote, but should have been put iu a
s:tparate estimate.

.Mr. NE WDEGATE said that out of the 40,00 i stand of
arms which had been ordered at Liege only 14,000 had
hem received, and that too late for the purposes of the
war, and of those ordered in America only 400 muskets
had been received, and most of those spoit and damaged,
so that out of all the orders gi ,en to the foreign trade we
had not got one musket for the war, whereas 150,000 stand
of arms hail been obtained from the English trade, whie.h
the Government said could not supply them. The hon.
gentleman then proceeded to urge that we were actually
giving to the manufacturers in Belgium and America, the
chief seppliers of Rassia and other continental countries,
net only the pattern of our improved unu4cets, which were
the best iu the world—tor the Enneld rifle was a great im-
provement on the Minie—hut we were, by means of in-
struwors, creating that which neither America nor Bel-
gium ha,± yet obtained—the skilled workmen to manufac•
ture that species of arms.
. . - .

tilr. STXFFOR,I) asked whether the vote No. 8 includ-
e 3 the expense of the surgeons of the civil hospitals ; also
whether a deterinination had bee❑ come to as to the pay of
the civil surgeons, and whether it had been determined to
draw a diitinction between the ply to be granted to the
assistant-surgeons an the surgeons to the militia ?
Mr. PEEL said the pay of the civil surgeons was not un-
der inw,sttz. Lion.

Mr. STAFFORD thought there was an understanding as
to the civil hospital surgeons, that they were to have three
months' pay, and the assistant-sargeone two months;
whereas the militia surgeons wore to receive a larger sum.
Mr. F. PEEL said there was no question whatever as to
the number of months' gratuity, but questions had arisen
as to wli,ther the duties were dispensed with when the
surgeons left the East, or when they arrived in this coun-
try.
Mr. SPOON-ER asked whether the staff of viewers in
Belgium was still continued, and if so, at what expense,
aed whether there would be any objection to laying on the
table en account f tie expense!
!dr. MONSELL replied that the viewers would be kept
up till the contract was completed. The expense was about
2; a gun. Ho should not have the least objection to lay a
at ttement of the expense on the table.
Col. —U,N*.NE remarked that he was quite in order in
referring to the former votes, because. there was an agree-
ment with the noble lord at the head of the Government,
that if they paseed the votes, they shoul t have an oppor-
tunity of discussing them afterwards. He understood it
was intended during peace to retain the office of the War
Department on the same extravagant footing as at present.
He also wished to know if theheed-quarter staff was to re-
main as it was nosy? Goverment determined to procure
arms from America, but there were no manufacturers in
America in a position to supply them, and they advanced
a firm 20,0, 0/. to build a factory, and the rifles cost 5/.
each, which they were not worth. The same thing'hap-
pened with regard to powder, for which they were paying
85. or 9s. a b ,rrel more than its value.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER wished to
say a word in reference to the understanding as to the
discussion of the estimates. A portion of the votes were
taken definitively. In those cases it was understood that
the discussion as well as the vote was closed. There was
another set of votes which were taken on account, but if
the Government found the amount already voted was
sufficient for the year, there was to be a discussion on those
votes, and a mere nominal sum was taken in order that
the house might have a fresh opportunity for discussing
those votes.

The vote was then agreed to.
The next vote was IUI., in addition to 54,2461. voted be-
fore, for wages of artificers in Woolwich arsenal.
Mr. M. CHAMBERS Raid he wished to have an explicit
understanding as to the cost of the fireworks used on the
celebration of peace. They were told that the expense of
them was to be 8,0001„ but he was informed that the
workmen at Woolwich were employed in making the fire-
works, and that while they were so engaged their wages
wire put to the general account. He wished to know
whit the expense would be, including the wages.
Mr MONSELL said he believed 6,0001. would cover all
the expenses. exc,pt those which were incurred in the
arsenal at Wool with, which were undoubtedly in addition
to the 6,000/- Ho could not tell what those expenses
woeld be ; indeed ho did not know how it was possible to
make them out.
Mr. M. CHAMBERS was extremely desirous to know
what the expense was. Ho was informed that the 6,0001.
was a mere drop of water in the sea of expense.
Mr. STAFFORD observed that there were persons be-
longing to various departments employed in the matter,
and the aseertainine the amount of ;heir wages would be
simply a niattOr of curiosity.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS said neither the hon. and learned.
gentleman nor the country would ever know the cost of
those fireworks.
lAr• E. BALL wished there had been the same scrutiny
?",1) all the expenses connected with the war that there was
Into.thieezpeuse of the oelebation of PIM ,•I,lle thought