The Sun.
London, England, 1860-05-18 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY E P;EINING, MAY 18, 1860,

. ... .
' not revent the
resolved upon a change of policy in that respect Neapolitan vesiels from firm g; but he says
had the opportunity of firing upon the
it was their nthatl:
duty to take the step he had suggested. (Hear.).
..
c lici- vessels and the men, they
did not so. He a vs,- moreover,
had beenlanded, and . the merchant
t to ta
Mr. MALINS thought that the opinion winch the ..a..
tor-General gave on a previous occasion with respect
deniers had disembarked
al the troops of 'Garibaldi, the
the Neapolitan steam Ler came to him
English boat to take
. possession
although they
for thee
command of
of waging war against a friendly P
lawfulness of raising subscriptions in thisecworr
wtiaLjuealt.
purpose
that if his hon. and and Mod ,_
tiously advanced, and felt convinced
The English officer, Captain Marryatt,
learned friend, instead of making an elaborate attempt to of those vessels.
.aed to do so. (Hear, hear.) He had
provebe wrong,properly deck.. • • these very ,athorisedlum to take vessels,
that to be right which everybody knew to
which
. .
had candidly acknowledged that he had expressed . himself no instructions w a nroceedings. His instructions
too hastily, the house would have treated him with the or to take any part in those I. `he British Government
greatest
indulgence. Anything more dangerous or more were, as the conduct if 1— ..
hira to send an fn.gla
Autrality in the to observe perfect b., .„
.refore although
con-
erroneous than the doctrine laid down by the Solicitor- has been, .
General—vm.,
a direct denial—;.
of ' that foreigners residing in this country might filet that is going on. (Dar, hear.) Th.. . '4. knowing
e ships,
!awfully combine together to raise money for the purpose
. this officer does not give
ite...
revented the fire of the Neap:ll u
of making war witha friendly Power, he could not conceive. anything of its existence—to the allegation that la,-
~ _
The Attorney-General had entirely repudiated it, bat at the beingl anchored,
may inferP
from his account that such was
same time, doubtless from a desire to screen his colleague, vessthe s,
from Marsala any of his officers who
had expressed himself with considerable ambiguity on one not
asked ehicwaseete.
recall
does appearthat the Neapolitan captain
portion of the subject. He had correctly stated that for any
and when his dicers had come on board fire was
pose of making war against a friendly Power was contrary purpose, body of men to combine together to raise money for the pule- Nere onTshore, and he immediately put up a signal for that
That should be considered as an act of international cour-
whether the law was applicable to foreigners resident in this
the common law of England, but he had also raised a doubt opened on the town of Marsala by the Neapolitan ships.
ot::: aftereriu the
men.
country. Now, if the hon. and learned gentleman really teetsyellonimtphleyparthettotfhteheENngholiethianp
entertained any doubt upon that point, it was his duty to seewPertaeinin, buttko itw adyo does notili
e
remove it without the loss of a single day, for surely nothing fire. It does not appear that the English officer in any way
could be more just than that foreigners resident in this
country, and enjoying the protection of our laws, should be exceeded etecxee his duty. He was there for the purpose of pro-
tin gßwrieetisy a few words upon the other point which has
British interests, sad he did no more. (Hear.) I
bound to comply with them in all respects. His own epe- must ne
n so much discussed. I shall not, of course, touch upon
defined by the Attorney-General, was equally applicable accuratelyto
the question of law upon which the hon.. and learned gen-
natives and foreigners, and he suspected that if the sub
tle en on both sides have given us admirable disquisitions,
scription adVertised in the Times had been raised to put butrn from which I cannot ascertain that in this particular
down the Government of the Emperor of the French, or of case
is wise for de Government to prosecute. It
it would be
some other powerful Sovereign, it would have been stopped one thing to state the general purport of the law,—and
long ago. (Hear.) The debate had beenmost useful and no onem could do so with greater clearness and authority
important, and ought to have some practical result, and he than
therefore wished to ascertain what was the intention of the but it isy hon. and learned friend the Attorney-General,—
another qaestion whether, if the Government were
Government with respect to those advertisements calling on to
foreigners and British subjects to subscribe money to make
prosecute in a certain case, we asked him to state the
probability of obtaining a conviction. The hon. and learned
war on the King of Naples. (Hear.)' With the Govern- gentleman opposite says we ought immediately to prosecute
ment of Naples this country ought not to interfere, or,-ifthe e persons who put the advertisement into the paper. I
interfered, should interfere in a manner to leave no doubt it
m surprised
evi-
as to the result ; but this acquiescence, amounting to con- dente that a lawyer should say that. What
re e have we of who it was that put that advertisement
nivance, in irregular proceedings against a powerless ally into the newspaper
and endeavour to obtain evidence of who had
this ? We must first go to the printer of the
was grossly improper. He apprehended that the Govern- w
ment on consideration would find that a foreigner in nseenteFta, P eand then to oomiect them with the advertisement
country had equally with a British subject no right to pro-d Mr. MALINS--Names ere given of persons by whom
and the subscriptions.
jest the upsetting of a foreign and friendly Government, an
this matter might be brought to a test if an
indictment subscriptions will be received.
were preferred against the parties issuing the advertisement
e printer
of the Times newspaper, I allow, but lam not Lord J. RUSSELL--There are names given by the
he had alluded to. At any rate, an intimation from th
con-
Government that the proceeding in question was discount e- winced that Signor Saffi or ethers whose names appear, if
nanced by them would have a salutary effect. In conf or- they were asked by some one sent by the Attorney General,
mity with the same principles of strict neutrality the puss-
would at once admit that they desired their names to be
given
Lion whether or not Romagna was to belong to the Pope as the collectors of subscriptions to be expended in
was one to be settled between, him and his own subjects,
te
making war against the King of Sicily. I should think it
and therefore the enlistment in Ireland of troops for h would be necessary to prove all that, and to bring evidence
Pope, alluded to by the hon. member for Marylebone, must to shovethat the printer of the Times did not without au-
be considered an infringement of that strictneutralitywhich thority use the names of Signor Saffi and others, or we
ought to be preserved in this country. should be all at the mercy of the printer of the Times, who
Mr. NEWDE GATE trusted that if the Government acted
might give the names of all the Cabinet as contributors of
on the suggestion to issue a proclamation to prohibit assist
large sums to be used in waging war against the King of
-
ance being given to General Garibaldi, on whose under- the Two Sicilies. " Hear," and a laugh.) The hon. and
taking he gave no opinion, they would proceed impartially learned gentleman is a much better judge than I am of
in the matter, and not ignore any longer the movement these matters, but if the government were to prosecute in
such cases they would hare to ask the law officers as to the
in Ireland, promoted by persons holding authority in the
means of obtaining convictions. Ido not remember any
Roman Catholic colleges, for the enlistment of her Ma_ means
of successful prosecution in respect of persons who
jesty's subjects to serve the Pope. The Government would
not forget the promptmanner in which the attempt to enlist had been subscribing forthe purpose of mantaining insur-
American subjects was resisted in America, and he hoped rection or wars in Poland or other countries. There is one
they would not permit the agents of any foreign Power to country in regard to which I myself was concerned, to-
enlist within her Majesty's dominions forces intended for gether with many distinguished persons. I refer to the
the service of a foreign State making war for temporal pur-
insurrection in Greece. We carried on our proceedings
poses, although
the head of the State was invested with spi- openly. I was a member of a committee which met at
ritual authority. Not only were men being enlisted, but the Lord Fitwilliam's house in Grosvenor-square, and after-
days of Peter's Pence were revived—contributions were wards we went to a meeting in the city. I did not find at
being extracted from her Majesty's subjects under the name that time there was any great zeal for prosecuting us
of a tax formally abolished by the Legislature of this coup-
(" hear," and laughter), and certainly I never suffered any
try. This was no trifling matter. It was all very well for imprisonment in Consequence of my connexion with, those
the house to express indignation at what might be a rash Proceedings. (Hear, hear.) Therefore the question of
undertaking by Garibaldi. But that was a sudden move-
common law does not appear to be quite solved yet, and it
ment, while the other was a protracted and organised sys-
requires much consideration before the Government can
tem. Was inconsistent with the law of this country, and with feel warranted in interfering. But, after all, there is much
the principles of international law, that the agents of foreign difference of opinion on these points. Some say, "What a
States should raise money and men in this country without wicked thing it is to assist in waging war against the King
the consent of her Majesty's Government ? He wished to
o f
his
powertheT w. o, , Sicilies, and in exciting insurrection against
ask whether the persons accepting this engagement did notl But, then, other gentlemen say, "That is
from the hour of leaving this country lose all claim to their not so very bad, but it is a dreadful thing to go and assist
rights as British subjects, and whe her the consent of the the Pope. That is a crime indeed." But when you
c
Government not having been given they did not stand in the consider these questions of insurrection and international
position of pirates, and were not at the mercy of any foe law you must separate them from each other. A move-
whom they might encounter ? He thought that if Govern-
ment such as that which Walker attempted in south
ment took any action in the case of Garibaldi, they ought America, when he sought to invade and to obtain
equally to take it in the other. (Hear.) possession of territory, with no higher object than his
own selfish interests, is one case ; but a patriot fighting
Mr. B. OSBORNE—I am not about to enter into the
for the independence of his country is quite mother
question of enlistment in Ireland. That is not properly the case. ,
(Hear, hear.) We know that our. sympathies
question before the house. (Hear, hear.) The original
and the julgrient of history will distinguish between the
questionwas one calling attention to the reply given by the
cases of the filibuster and felon, and that of the hero and
Solicitor-General respecting Garibaldi's expedition and
the patriot. (Hear, hear.) We had once a great filibuster
that, to my mind, appears the more serious matter. The
who landed in England in 1688. (Hear, hear.) He not only
house must feel that it has arisen from the very elaborate
received considerable support, but all the people of Eng-
, answer given the other evening by the Solicitor-General, land flocked around him. (Hear, hear, and " No.") That
who has been universally thrown over by every lawyer in
filibustering was successful. (Hear; hear.) These are cases
the house, and even by his own colleague the Attorney-
in which it is not sufficient to say that Garibaldi is a man
General. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) I must say I
fighting against a Sovereign whom he ought to respect, or
heard that answer with great surprise, but it is no slight
that the Pope is endeavouring to maintain his authority by
thing for the Solicitor-General by implication to leave unlawful expedients. It is not enough to say these things
people out of doors to imagine that the subscription which in a glib and fluent manner. These questions, whether
has been so extensively advertised is a legal ono. In one
taken as questions of law, or politics, or morals, require
point, at any rate, this discussion has bean useful,—we
much examination before you can affii Zither moral blame
have now ascertained that the subscription is strictly an
or moral praise to those who are engaged in them. I cer-
illegal one. Whether it would be advisable on the part of thinly would not pledge the Government to undertake a
Government to prosecute, and whether they would get a
conviction is another question ; but it is no doubt the place prosecution in this case. Whenever we find that the plain
law is openly outraged it is our duty, undoubtedly, to see
of Government to give expression to their opinion on the
subject in this house. If they are for the doctrines of non-
that it is enforced. That has been done frequently in cases
intervention, of which lam a humble disciple, they ought of breach of the Foreign Enlistment Act, but even as to
t
to state that this is an illegal combination for assisting statute we have found considerable difficulties in the
way of our carrying it into effect. I will not bind myself by
people in opposition to a Sovereign with whom we are on
a general declaration of what is the common law to prose-
friendly terms. (Hear, hear.) If we once give way to this
sort of thing, on what ground can we complain of the con-
cute those who are raising subscriptions to send money to
duct of ? Have I not heard gentlemen here using Sicily. (Hear, hear.)
the strangest language with reference to General Weikel? Mr. WYLD, referring to the " blasphemous proclama-
What was said about the attempt by American Filibusters lion" that had been attributed to Ricciardi, said that docu-
ment had never been acknowledged by that patriot or his
some time ago to take the Havannah ? Those are parallel
fends.
(Hear.) With respect also to the statement that
instances, and if we are on every occasion to express oar
sympathies by subscription in opposition to Sovereigns Garibaldi was a member of a secret society, he reminded the
with whom we are in
house that the imputation had always been' denied by that
amity, you may say what you like
about the common law of England, but lam sure it is distingu;shed individual, who was too noble to connive or
against all the principles of international law. (Hear, hear.) take part in private murder. (Hear, hear.)
These may not be popular sentiments, but I think they are Mr. MAGUIRE said the noble lord had stated that the
such as ought properly to be entertained by an independent printer of the Times might take extraordinary liberties with
member, who has no sympathy with Naples, and much the Cabinet, and might put down the name of every member
of it as having aided and assisted the expedition. of Garibaldi.
liking for the Sicilian cause, but who thinks, whatever his
If the printer of the Times had done that, he would by no
sympathies may be, that it is not right to truckle to.mere
out-of-doors feeling, and that he ought to lay down the means have made an extraordinary mistake (a laugh),
position which he wishes this country to assume upon all seeing that the Government had done everything in their
occasions. (Hear, hear.) Now, I wish on this subject to power, perhaps unconsciously, to promote discontent in the
put a question to the Foreign Secretary. I have read in dominions of the King of the Two Sicilies, and to a certain
extent to encourage the present rebellion. The noble lord,
the newspapers with considerable surprise that the landing
of Garibaldi's force at Marsala was greatly assisted by
sitting in the Foreign office as a kind of European school-
Englishmaster, had regularlybirched the King of Naples —(a laugh)
vessels. Whether that be true or not, I know the
report is very prevalent on the Con anent because I have-
—he had, in fact, done everything to discredit his autho-
rity in his own dominions, and had almost justified the in-
received communications from abroad stating that the fact
clearly shows this country to be in favour of the ex-
surrection. The fact was the King of Naples was compelled
pedition. On the Treasury bench this question has been
to take steps which might be called arbitrary and harsh, but
narrowed down to the mere consideration of its legal bear- which were absolutely necessary in the state of the public
feeling there. Surely that Sovereign, when he found con-
broader grounds. I think we ought to have a Minister of
ing ; but
,I think it is important that it should rest on some
spiracles hatching in Naples with the view to foment insur-
greater authority than the law officers of the Crown to tell
rection in Sicily, had a perfect right to turn the conspira-
us what truth there is in the statement, that the landing of
tors out of the country. He (Mr. Maguire) hated to see in
the despatches emanating from the Foreign-office all that
the expedition has been mainly assisted by English yes-
eels. (Hear, hear.) With regard to the subscriptions, I cowardice and truckling manifested towards a great power,
a
believe there are many sympathisers With the Siciliancause and that tyranny and oppression towards the email. (Hear.)
even in this house. I, perhaps, may sympathise, but my The noble lord was brave when he had to deal with the
King of Naples or the Sovereign of Rome, but he blanched
duty here is superior to my sympathy, and I certainly will
when he had to encounter the Emperor of France. The
not show that sympathy by breaking the law. (Hear, hear.)
The O'DONOGHUE said it used to be held that illegal most abominable conspiracy the world over saw was now
acts only met with approval in Ireland ; but such a doctrine being carried on in Italy, and all the confusion there atthis moment was owing to the infamous machinations of
could now no longer be maintained. He had had the honour
two kingly robbers. He was perfectly justified in the belief
of presiding at two meetings, and of taking part in a third
influential that the robbery which was perpetrated in Italy of a por-
ion of the States of the Pope and of a portion of the Aus
meeting, for the purpose of expressing sympathy t-
with his Holiness the Pope. He had never done anything of trian dominions, and the division of the booty between those
which he felt so proud—(hear)--and he was sure the house two Sovereigns, originated in a base compact between them.
would agree with him that there was such a difference be- And what was the principle that had been sanctioned by
tween assisting a legitimate Sovereign to maintain order in her Majesty's Government ? Why, that it was lawful for
his dominions and assisting rebels who were endeavouring to any portion of the subjects of a legitimate Sovereign to cast
overthrow their legitimate Government. He hoped the off hie yoke and to hand over their allegiance to another.
Government would answer the question which had been On the same principle the people of Cornwall or of Devon
repeatedly put to them, and would state what course they
might throw off-,the yoke of the Queen, and might, by
intended to take in this matter. Unless they did so this universal suffrage, express their discontent with her Go-
debate would have had a most unsatisfactory termination.
vernment, and their determination to be free, or to hand
(Hear.) As to the statement of the hon. and learned gentle- over their allegiance to the Emperor of the French.
man (Mr. James) that those who were going from Ireland,
(Hear, hear.) Garibaldi is called an illustrious patriot, and
if any were going, were proceeding to Italy in orderto mas-
by many mere high-sounding epithets ; but who were his
sacra the subjects of the Pope, that was a most =warrant- accomplices ? Why, the very scum of Italy—bandits and
able calumny on the people of Ireland. He believed that if assassins, leagued together by ties of blood. Among them
they were going it was with no such intention. He should
not take upon himself to say whether these proceedings was one Zambianchi, who, judging him by his acts, was an
infamous villain, a foul, blood-stained robber, and an as-
were contrary to the Enlistment Act or not ; but he gave the sassin. He could tell the house something of that man Zam-
most emphatic denial to the statement of the honourable bianchi. He had been a Custom-house officer, and was an infi-
and learned gentleman.
del and vagabond—(a laugh)—he feared neither God nor man;
Lord J. RUSSELL—My hon. friend (Mr. B. Osborne)
he was at enmity with the Pope; and therefore, forsooth, he
has asked me a question 'respecting the landing of Gari- was a hero and a patriot. During the rebellion in Rome he
baldi, and respecting two British ships which are said in assisted in arresting every person who endeavoured to escape
certain telegrams to have protected the landing of these men- from the confusion in which the Pope's dominions were at
Now, 1 received to-day from the Admiralty the telegraphic that time; and if the persons whom he arrested ventured to
despatch of the officer commanding ono of these vessels— express opinions different from his own he settled the con-
the Intrepid. Hon. gentlemen should be informed that troversy either by the dagger or the pistol. He had a large
there is considerable British property at Marsala, and that field of action in the city of Rome. He brought a number
from the time when a rising in Sicily was expected, and still of priests into San Calisto, whom he imprisoned, afterwards
more from the time when the report was circulated that starving some and murdering others, cutting them in piece-
Garibaldi was going there, applications have been made meal and gloating over their agony. Such were the hor-
both to the Foreign-office and to Admiral Fanshawe, who rible atrocities committed by that miscreant that the revo-
commands in the Mediterranean, to send ships for the pre• Intionary Government were eventually compelled to inter-
tection of British property whore British subjects were to fere and put a stop to his barbarities. Why did the noble
be found. Admiral Fanshawe accordingly sent the Intrepid lord do to the King of Naples what he did not dare to do to
and the Argus to Marsala. The Intrepid arrived, I think, the Emperor of France ? Tho noble ' lord would say, of
on the 11th, but had not been there long before two raer- course, that the Emperor of France went to Italy to liberate
chant steamers came in with Garibaldi's force and began to Italy. Was there ever a more monstrous ', humbug" than
land it. While this was going on two Neapolitan ships of that ? (An ironical laugh.) He repeated, was there ever a
war--asteamer and a frigate—approached Marsala; but this more monstrous "humbug" than for one of the most eon-
officer says that, although these ships might have fired upon summate despots whom the world ever saw to pretend to
the vessels and upon the men during their landing, they did give liberty to Italy? When the people were shot down in
not do so. He does not say, not knowing anything of the the streets of Paris at the time of the mil) d'etat, did Ipay Ire.
story that has since been mind, that the English ships did bake for the brutal atrocities perpetrated on Unit Occiole4

important a matter in the hands of the Admiralty as at pre-
sent, constituted, seeing that their previous efforts had
proved so completely failures. How could it be otherwise
in a department ruled by a civilian, who knew nothing
whatever about naval matters, with a Board appointed
chiefly for political reasons, and with but little re-
gard to professional merit ? He could hardly re-
collect a single naval man of eminence and distinguished
talent who had ever had a seat at the Board of Admiralty.
Sir Thomas Hardy was the best of them. (A Voice—Sir
George Cockburn.) Well, he owned Sir George Cockburn
was a distinguished officer; but during the whole 18 years
that he was at the Admiralty scarcely a single improvement
took place. In the War Department there were the Adju-
tant-General, the Quartermaster-General, an I their respec-
tive deputies, who could be employed to inquire into any-
thing that went wrong and prepare a report en the subject.
But the services of no similar officers were at the disposal
of the Admiralty, although in the case of the recent muti-
nies, they would have been found of great value. When
the Admiralty wished to make an inquiry into any irregu-
larity on the spot where it occurred, so many of their lord-
ships went down in their yachts, which was very beauti-
fully fitted up and well stocked with wine, and enjoyed
themselves as though they were a mere party of pleasure.
He suggested that the offices of Rear-Admiral and Vice-
Admiral of England should no longer be allowed to remain
sinecures. The Senior Lord of the Admiralty ought to fill
the office of Rear-Admiral, and the next lord that of the
Vice-Admiral. They could then visit the dockyards, inspect
the ships and the works, and examine everything for them-
selves. Theymight then perhaps be able to instil some sound
ideas into the head of a non-professional First Lord. He was
aware that civilians were in the habit of retorting that the
business of the Admiralty had never been conducted more
efficiently when a sailor was at thehead of it. The adminis-
tration of Lord St. Vincent had been subjected to a good deal
of criticism. Now, Lord St. Vincent entered upon the duties
of First Lord at a time when the fleet was in a deplorable
state, but he succeeded in re- establishing discipline. He
wished we had another like him to re-establish discipline
now, for it had almost disappeared in our navy. He feared
that as long as the navy was governed as at present no tree
economy would ever be secured. It was startling to look
back on the various classes of vessels which after having
been constructed at great coat had been abandoned as useless.
First there were the notorious "Forty Thieves," and then
the " donkeys," which were made use of when the frigates
were found to be failures. Lord Spencer's gunboats, called
after his dogs, came next, followed in succession by Sir W.
Symonds's vessels, the iron vessels and the gunboats, which.
he agreed with his gallant friend opposite had better be
broken up. The slip at Hasler was invented by a civil
Lord of the Admiralty, who did not, it was said, consult his
board at all on the subject, and his gallant friend had shown
them what sort of a job he had made of it. There really
ought to be a committee of inquiry into the government of
the navy.
Admiral WALCOTT thought the names of the contrac-
tors ought not to be given until the inquiry entered into
was concluded. He thought the honour and reputation of
this country were involved—and the lives of many officers
imperilled—by the manner in which the contractors built
these gunboats, and he hoped the strictest inquiry would be
made to ascertain who were the guilty parties. Until that
inquiry was made, however, he would pass no sentence on
any one engaged in the transaction. (Loud cries of
" Divide, divide.") He would do his duty in spite of any
interruptions he might receive, and would speak when he
thought proper, and for what time he thought proper, not-
withstanding their cries of " Divide, divide."
THE ESTIMATES.
Mr. A. SMITH asked the hon, gentleman the Secretary
of the Treasury when it was intended to proceed with the
Civil Service Estimates ; how soon No. 7 of those esti-
mates would be laid upon the table of the house, and whe-
ther the same would contain an estimate for the Commis-
sioners of Woods and Forests during the current year?
Mr. LAING said he would be delighted if he could
answer the first question of the hon. gentleman with
respect to the Civil Service Estimates, but that was be-
yond his control. It would be necessary to get a vote
on aecount before Whitsuntide, and then they could be
afterwards discussed. With respect to No. 7, it con-
tained, as the hon. gentleman knew, the Miscellaneous Es-
timates, and it was not usual to bring them on until the
end of the session. They would be printed and distributed
among hon. members previously, in order that az opportu-
nity should be afforded to discuss them properly. With re-
spect to the Commissioner of Works that involved a great
constitutional question, and the committee that considered
the subject thought the matter ought to be left as it was
settled, when the Civil List was agreed on at the accession
of her Majesty.
Mr. DISRAELI said the proposition of the Government
with respect to a vote of credit, was one which, the house
should always view with suspicion, because it was a mode
by which the real examination of the country would be
be evaded. tHear.) He did not say a word against its
adoption by the Government, but he must protest against
this course of proceeding, which ought to be looked upon as
one of an entirely exceptional character, and whieh, if per.
sisted in, must tend eventually to dispossess the House of
Commons practically of any control over the expenditure.
He was quite unaware of the particular circumstances which
made such a course necessary in this instance. They might
be of a satisfactory nature; but if those demands of votes
of credit were only made in order to carry on business in
which neither the house nor the country felt any great in-
terest, he thought the house would hesitate before they
agreed to sanction the course proposed by the Government.
' The motion for the adjournment of the house till Mon-
day was then agreed to.
INSPECTORS OF CUSTOMS IN CHINA.
Mr. WYLD asked the Secretary of State for Foreign
Affairs, whether the Earl of Elgin, while at Tientsin, made
any arrangements with the Chinese authorities for the
appointment of foreign inspectors of customs at the open
ports, and reserved the right of filling eleven such ap-
pointments ; and, if so, why the correspondence relating
to those appointments was not printed in the blue-book of
his mission ; if there was any objection to lay this corres-
pondence upon the table of the house, together with the
despatch from Lord Elgin, announcing the appointment to
the Chinese Customs of the secretary to his lordship's em-
bassy : and, if there was any objection to lay upon the table
of the house copies of the correspondence from Mr. Bruce
on the subject of the Chinese Customs foreign inspectorship,
especially as regards the ports of Canton and Swatow.
Lord J. RUSSELL said there had been no correspon-
dence with the Earl of Elgin in, regard to the appointment
of foreign inspectors in Chinese ports, as alluded to by the
hon. gentleman to be found in the Foreign-office. There
had been some correspondence with Mr. Bruce, but it chiefly
related to objections made by the American Minister at
Canton, and it would be inconvenient to produce it. There
was no account of the appointment of Lord Elgin's secre-
tary to any office connected with the Chinese Customs, on
the contrary, the present system appeared to work very
satisfactorily at the porta which were open, but the port of
Swatow was not yet open, and therefore there could be no 1
inspectorship.
REFRESHMENT MOUSES AND WINE LICENSES
BILL.
The house then went into committee on this bill, Mr.
Massey in the chair,
Mr. E. JAMES moved to insert in clause 12, line 31,
after the words " wine licenses," to leave out down to " re-
spectively" inclusive, and insert "at their discretion, and
upon all or any of the grounds on which they are now en-
titled to refuse or disallow any license by virtue of the acts
now in force regulating the granting of licenses to public-
houses." His object was to give to the magistrates the
same power over refreshment-houses in respect to licenses
which they had now as regarded public-houses.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER opposed
the amendment, and said the question had been settled on
the second reading of the bill.
Mr. HARDY said. he would support the amendment.
They had no right to get rid of the powers of themagistrates
to grant licenses by a side-wind such as this was. He also ob-
jected to the clause as leaving out the important element of
character.

One from the English Government ? Was there not rather
an expression of sympathy with Louis Napoleon from one
whose name had been almost synonymous with the en-
couragement of revolution throughout the world ? " Oh,
oh!" He (Mr. Maguire) said they ought to be careful in
those cases in laying down principles, for no man knew
how soon they might be applied to themselves. If there
were any hostile feelings on the part of Ireland to-
wards this country, he could not see why Louis Napoleon
might not fancy he heard a " cry of agony" from Cork or
from Kerry, and why he might not attempt to land some
30,000 or 60,000 sympathisers with liberty on its shores.
He (Mr. Maguire), as an Irishman, would be one of the
first to repel such an attempt, for he abhorred the man and
his rule; and, much as he might be disposed to Toad faUlt
with the Government of England in dealing with Ireland,
it would be one of the greatest calamities that could befall
his country to allow that man, or a single soldier that
fought under his banner, to set foot upon its shores. What
he desired was that this country should be preserved from
the machinations of a man of this kind ; and he therefore
asked gentlemen to pause before they sanctioned a principle
that might prove dangerous to its interests. He thought
that, as the friends of liberty, they should be the last to en-
courage any scoundrel who was endeavouring to carry out
his own private objects under the auspices of two kingly
robbers, whose names would be branded with infamy when
the history of these times was written. (Hear.)
Mr. H. D. SEYMOUR rose to express his surprise at
the speech of the noble lord the Foreign Secretary. (Hear.)
With reference to that speech, he would take the liberty to
mention a conversation which he had heard on the bench
near him. A . friend of his had said to another hon.
member, " Yoa are, of course, in favour of non-inter-
vention; what do you think of the noble lord's speech ?"
The reply was, " Why, I think he was holding the candle.*
(Hear, hear.) And that was said by a very moderate man,
and a supporter of the Government. The noble lord had
formed a very decided opinion upon this question, and he
held out very strong encouragement to those who were
willing to support Garibaldi.
Lord J. RUSSELL—I gave no opinion at all. I said
that each case must be judged by its own merits, but I gave
no opinion whatever. (Hear, hear.)
. Mr. SEYMOUR—If I understood the noble lord aright,
he compared Garibaldi to William 111. of England.
Lord J. RUSSELL—No; I compared Walker to Wil-
liam lll.—not Garibaldi. (A laugh.)
Mr. SEYMOUR certainly thight, and he believed others
had the same impression, that the tone of the noble lord's
speech was to encourage the Sicilian insurrection, <Hear,
hear.) But it now appeared that-such was not his intention.
He thought the position of the Governmentof this country
should be one of non-intervention. (Hear, hear.) If we
encouraged Filibusters :under the impression that they
were acting in the cause of liberty, the time might come
when we should have the doctrine turned against ourselves.
(Hear, hear.) He agreed with those who thought that if
Garibaldi succeeded in his expedition to Sicily, he might
easily establish there a Government better than the Neapo-
litan one ; but when they saw the difficulties that lay in the
way of extricating Sicily from the rule of Naples, and the
European complications that must arise, while their best
wishes were fora better Government in Sicily, yet theymust
desire that it should not be taken out of the hands of its
present lawful possessors. (Hear, hear.)
THE DEFECTIVE GUNBOATS.
Mr. F. SMITH rose to askthe Secretary to the Admiralty
if he had any objection to discontinue the breaking up of
the defective gunboats till a full opportunity was afforded
for thoroughly examining into their state under the direc-
tion of a select committee, should it be appointed. He was
desirous that these gunboats should not be broken up, in
order that they might have the means of ascertaining in
what condition they really were. The other evening the
noble lord the Secretary to the Admiralty was asked to
name the contractors by whom the boats were built—a ques-
tion which he with his usual. good taste and judgment de-
clined to answer. But since then the Messrs. Green had
come forward and publicly, stated in the newspapers that
they were the contractors I a large number of the boats
' found to be imperfect; and they admitted the use of unsea-
soned timber and short bolts. The letter of Messrs. Green
gave the strongest reason why there should be a committee
of inquiry, and why the work of demolishing the boats
should not be further proceeded with. They said :
" As to the vessels being defective, we are not surprised,
as many of them were built of unseasoned timber, although
the best that could be got at the time, and the air excluded
when they were hove up out of the water at Hasler, instead
of having, a plank taken out fore and aft for ventilation,
which ought to have been done."
Any man who knew anything about ships would see the
force of this observation. They then proceeded :=
" With regard to the short bolts, we beg to state that
during the progress of the work we were pushed very hard by
the Admiralty to complete our contract, and even threatened
with legal proceedings if behind time, which compelled us
to employ a large number of strange shipwrights, who
worked very often night and day, and it would, therefore,
be impossible for us or the Government inspector to be an-
swerable that every bolt was properly driven. It is admit-
ted by the Admiralty, in their report, that 2,202 bolts were
properly driven through, and we maintain, as shipbuilders,
that planks fastened with one through bolt in every other
timber, with a short one between, are Liuite sufficient to se-
cure the safety of any vessel of war. Lloyd's require one
through bolt and one short bolt in every butt, and not less
than half of the trenails to be driven through, in building
their highest class ships, calculated to carry heavy car-
goes; and, should the ship be copper-fastened, theyrequire
only one half of the bolts to be through bolts, and all the
rest short bolts. We complain of the Admiralty for not giv-
ing the contractors longer time to build these vessels, and
for not having a larger staff of inspectors to superintend the
work, and also for not taking proper care of them after they
were duly delivered up into the charge of their authorities,
ae.lording to contract, with the necessary certificates."
He thought that those allegations were matters for inquiry,
and therefore he was anxious that the best evidence in the
case—that of the boats themselves—should not be put out
of the way. He hoped the noble lord would be able to give
hini the assurance that the destruction of these boats would
be immediately stopped. (Hear, hear.)
Sir J. ELPHINSTONE believed that these gunboats
were defective in every possible respect, and as they consti-
tuted a species of defence of the greatest importance, he
trusted that an inquiry would take place before a select
committee as to how the demands of the public service for
this class of vessels might be best supplied. Into the per-
sonal question he would not enter. It was necessary during
the Russian war that gunboats should be immediately built.
There was no seasoned timber to be got, and the Govern-
ment were obliged to have such vessels as they could procure.
The Government, however, would have adopted a much
more sagacious course if when the war was over they had
dispensed with the services of these boats, and had directed
the construction of more suitable vessels. There were 150
of these gunboats, and they constituted a description of
force and a means of defence which were rendered requisite
by the preparations going on elsewhere. But the existing
gunboats could neither steam nor sail. They could not
carry their guns in heavy weather, and they were incapable
of moving from one point of the coast to the other, as and
when they were required. One object of the inquiry ought
to be to ascertain what-a gunboat really ought to be. (Hear,)'
A friend of his, an officer of great intelligence, had fitted out
a gunboat for service in a distant colony, and had sent him an
account of her performances. This friend said that the
merits of hisvessel might be summed up in the words that she
was an excellent sea-boat and " stayed" well, but that her
defects would fill a sheet of foolscap. She drew 8 ft. 6 in,
of water, could not steam for more than 24 hours without
interruption, and leaked like a sieve. (A laugh.) Yet this
gunboat was on service, and was making her way to a dis-
tant colony, where she would have to defend the honour of
the country. (Hear.) He had himself witnessed at Spithead
the other day the extraordinary performances of one of these
vessels--the Beaver, which formed one of the advanced
steam reserve. The mistake made by the Admiralty was in
not selling these vessels out of the service at the close of the
Russian war. They would have made very good coasters,
and their engines, being high pressure, would have answered
very well for thrashing corn. (A laugh.) There were 40 or
60 of these gunboats hauled up at Hasler, like horses in a
stable. They were drawn up by a screw, and the slightest
derangement of the machinery would lock them all up, so
that they might as well be in Winchester gaol. (A laugh.)
It would be of the greatest advantage to inquire into the
best construction of small vessels. He believed that if an
Armstrong gun were put into the small swift steamboats
employed on the Thames, they in'ght be painted of a tint
which would render it impossible to distinguish them, at
the distance they could throw shot or shell, from the water
they moved upon. But the gunboats built during the Rus-
sian war were miserable things, and no reliance should be
placed upon an arm that would be certain to, fail us in the
time of need. (Hear, hear.)
Lord C. PAGET was not going to defend the gunboats,
or to state that they were perfect in all respects. The best
proof that the Admiralty did not think them perfect was
that the gunboats now in process of construction were built
of a very superior form, and would constitute a much im-
proved armament. His hon. friend (Sir F. Smith) was mis-
taken if he supposed the Admiralty were breaking up these
vessels. From the moment it was found they were in a de-
fective state the Admiralty directed them to be left, so that
the contractors might see them for themselves, and with
the view to any ulterior measures. With regard to the mor-
tar-boats at Chatham to which his hon. friend had alluded,
he feared it was too late to prevent them from being broken
up. As to the future, the Admiralty would leave them as
they were, until it was decided what course was to be pur-
sued in regard to that class of vessels.
Sir. C. NAPIER concurred in the opinion that this was
a subject which could not be too often discussed. '(" Oh,
oh," and a laugh.) It was a most important question, for
on it depended the lives of our seamen and the defences of
the country. (Hear.) He did not blame they.A.dmiralty
for having built the gunboats, because they were urgently
demanded at a period of emergency. But, as to the manner
in which they had been built, Mr. Green had let the "cat
out of the bag," and it appeared that the Admiralty were as
much to blame as the contractors, Mr. Green alleged that
the Admiralty did not provide a sufficient number ofinspec-
tors, although, as the work was carried on during the night,
instead of fewer there should have been more of these offi-
cers in attendance than usual. The hon. member for Ports-
mouth had said very truly that these gunboats were unfit
for any service but that for which they were orginally in-
tended—to make short voyages, not far from our own shores,
and to act on an enemy's coast. If we were to go on build-
ing these small craft, we ought to bililt a very different sort
Of vessel, He hark thou ht yrou2:'pe cafe to trust au

Sir J. V. SHELLEY thought large towns were not
fairly dealt with, that beer-shops generally were woll con-
ducted, and that magistrates should be deprived of the
powers Which they now possessed.
After a few words from Mr. KER SRYMER,
-Sir W. JOLLIFFE said he thought that if magistrates
had any power, it should be that which they now had.
Mr. AYRTON supported the amendment.
Mr. S. ESTCOURT thought that the competition of the
proposed new system would be injurious.

Sir W. MILES said the three systems of licensing would
not work well together. He thought they ought to go to
the division either as the friends of the bill or as its enemies.
The committee divided, and the nufnbers were—
For the amendment .................. 117
Against it ................. . ........ 154
Majority ....................
—37
The amendment was accordingly lost.
On the motion that clause 12 stand part of the bill,
Sir W. JOLLIFFE objected to the whole clause. He
thought that magistrates should enforce the law and police
regulations, but that they should have nothing to do with
granting or preventing the grant of those licenses.
The clause was then agreed to. Clause 13 was also
agreed to.

Mr. w. MARTIN next moved that from and after the
passing of the act, the 12th clause of the 24th of Geo. IL,
commonly called the Tippling Act, should be repealed.
After some conversation, in which Mr. Hardy, the Chan_
cellor of the Exchequer, and Mr. Ayrton took part, the
motion was withdrawn.

Mr. HUME moved that the chairman report progress.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER objected
to reporting progress. He propo&ed that they should go
on, to enable them to insert the various clauses in the bill
of which he had given notice. He would also agree to
the insertion of the clause proposed by the hon. member
for Leominster, and if the house would agree to insert
theife. several clauses in the bill .they could all then be
printed with the bill, which he would propose should then
be recommitted, and thus the whole subject would be again
brought before the house.

Mr. HUME consented to withdraw his motion to report
progress.

The 414.NCE141.013, Qf Ule ZXcLIAQTaIi then

moved a clause having relation to the fixture of a fine upon
a second eonviction.

After a few words from Lord FEnMOY,
Sir W. MILES made a suggestion on the subject of the
clause which did not reach the gallery.
The clause was then added to the bill, as also several
other clauses and schedules, preparatory to reprinting the
bill for recommitment. Amongst these were Mr. Hardy's
clauses which stood on the, parer.
The house then resumed, and Monday next was fixed for
bringing up the report on the bill.
REGISTRATION OF BIRTHS (IRELAND) BILL.
TLis bill, after a short discussion, in which Mr. HEN-
NESSY, Mr. CARDWELL (Secretary for Ireland), and Lord
NAAS took part, was read a seeond time, the discussion to
be taken upon it, and Mr. Cardwell's bill on the same sub-
ject on the 4th June.

ROMAN CATHOLIC CHARITIES BILL.
This bill, on the motion of Mr. BOWYER, was com-
mitted pro forma.

INNKEEPERS' LIABILITY BILL.
On the motion that the house go into committee on this
bill, some discussion arose in which several hon. members
took part, as to whether the house at so advanced an hour
(half-past one o'clock) ought to go into committee.
The house ultimately resolved itself into committee,
when--

Sir F. GOLDSMID intimated that ho had several
amendments to propose to the bill.
Lord PALMERSTON suggested that the best course
would be at that late hour for the Chairman to report
progress, and ask leave to sit again.
Mr. WHITESIDE said the bill contained only three
short clauses, and that it might be disposed of now.
The CHAIRMAN, after some observations by Sir F.
Goldsmid, Mr. Whiteside, Mr. Stuart, and Mr. Isaac Butt,
reported progress, and the house resumed.
LANDLORD AND TENANT (IRELAND) BILL.
Mr. WHITESIDE obtained leave to introduce a bill
fOr consolidating the relations between landlords and tenant I
in Ireland.

SUPPLEMENTARY (NAVY) ESTIMATES.
Mr. WHITBREAD brought up the Supplementary
(Navy) Estimates, which were ordered to lie on the table.
The other business on the paper having been disposed of
the house adjourned at ten minutes to two o'clock.