The Sun.
London, England, 1860-02-18 00:00:00

'4wer.

--.—..........----.----“..........------ _
had not attempted to give the shadow of an PA--
1
(Cheers.)
Lord J. RUSSELL complained that the noble lord opp: I
site had nuintentionally misrepresented him altogether.
The hon. member for Perthshire had asked why it was that
when both countries, by their legislative bodies, could have
instituted changes in the duties which they relatively
of
posed, the Government had chosen to proceed by way el
commercial treaty ; and he replied,i that when the debate
was raised upon Monday upon the whole question he would
give the reasons why in this instance he had thought it ad-
-isable to enter into a commercial treaty. He did not say,
fl, ht:l been represented by the noble lord opposite, that on
---
.ion he would be prepared to enter into the details
that occa
,rcial treaty. Ile would now give to one part
of that comm..
'44°11
of the general qu, -an answer, which possibly he had
namely,- that no such correspondence
before omitted to do—_ existed at the Foreign-dam
as had been referred to
(Hear, hear.) 'owing how completely
Mr. HARDY, with a view of s,-'Zed up the Budget
and inseparably the Government had m-
- from a letter
and the commercial treaty, read a passage• and Mr.
written by Lord John Russell to Earl Cowley . -« in.
Cobden, which was as follows :—"-The effect of yoa,
structions will be to place at your disposal a large sum be--*
longing to the revenue from Customs to be employed in re-
moving, in most cases wholly, and in all cases to a consi-
derable extent, the charge of Customs duty from very im-
portant productions of France. These productions are not
in general articles of primary necessity, or of auch univer-
sal use among the people of the United Kingdom as to en- '
title them on those grounds to the first attention of the
Government. (Ironical cheers.) They are selected, then,
for relief, fn part indeed upon commercial grounds, but in
part also because of the collateral effects which we antici-
pate from the conclusion of the treaty." If the house wero
to act in the manner that the Government now called on
them to do—in an independent way and for the interests of
England [alone—they ought in the first instance to enter
on the consideration of the treaty, and afterwards to take
up the discussion on the Budget. (Cheers.)
The motion for adjournment to Monday was then agreed

to.
On the motion that the Speaker do leave the chair,
with a view of going into Committee of Supply,
Lord PALMERSTON said—Sir, I take advantage of that
motion to answer the inquiry of the right hon. gentleman
opposite. It must be obvious to anybody who has read the
treaty, or to any one who reflects on the constitutional
principle, that it is essential that the opinion of Parliament
should be taken on the treaty as a compact between the two
countries. The only question is as to the orderby which our
proceedings should be governed. Now, I humbly think—
considering that the treaty involves a considerable number
of changes in our Customs regulations—that if we had come
down to the house, and at once and before any other pro-
ceeding had proposed a general vote sanctioning the whole
treaty as it stands, we should have been met with the natu-
ral objection—" You call on us by one vote to give an
opinion on a matter involving a great number of details—
(cheers)—you are not dealing fairly with Parliament.
(Hear, hear.), Let us go through the matter point by
point and step by step, and when we have arrived at a con-
clusion on all the separate parts, then give us an
opportunity of expressing an opinion on the national en-
gagement as a whole between the two countries." (Cheers.)
That, I apprehend, was the,course pursued by Mr. Pitt;
that is the course we mean to pursue. (Hear, hear.) We in-
tend to take the sense of Parliament on the different matters
dependent on that treaty, in combination also with changes
made on separate grounds in our other Customs and fiscal
regulations. But undoubtedly it will be our duty—a duty
from which we have no intention of shrinking—to give to
the two houses of Parliament an opportunity of stating
their opinions plainly and directly—aye or no—in approba-
tion or disapprobation of the treaty. (Hear.) It will be our li
duty to give noticeof the time most expedient for the public
interest to take the discussion, and the house may be as-
sured we have no intention of shrinking from that duty.
My noble friend has deprecated the premature discussion of
the treaty, and with all submission I must say, when the
house is assembled to discuss the Army Estimates it is in-
convenient to employ the time of the house in discussing a
treaty which will probably be a subject of debate in the en-
suing week. My noble friend has been interrogated by se-
veral hon. gentlemen after the time when the forms of the
house permit him to be catechised ; and I believe I am now
in acme degree departing from those forms in giving the in-
formation asked by the right hon. gentleman.
Mr. DISRAELI—I have not received any answer from
the noble lord. Of course nonmember of the house supposes
that this treaty will be carried into effect without the house
having an opportunity of giving its sanction to it. But the
question to which I wish to call the attention of the house is
the mode and manner in which it shall receive that sanction.
The noble lord says the question of the approval of the
treaty will be brought before the house. But I maintain it
should be brought before us is the same manner as the
treaty of 1787 was laid before the house by Mr. Pitt, so thai
the house should have an opportunity of expressing its
opinion on each article. (Hear, hear.) By the course the
Government has settled, the house will have ;he opportu-
nity of parting with a considerable amount of the revenue
of the country ; and afterwards it will have an oppOrtunity
of rejecting the treaty in consequence of which this amount
of revenue has been destroyed. (Hear, hear.) Nothing is
more proper than that we should have an annual statement
of the financial prospects of the Government for the year
that informs us of its commercial and financial policy, ex-
ternal and internal ; but because we have that statement it
does not follow that we should immediately go into com-
mittee to consider the Customs duties. In 1787 Mr. Pitt
was Chancellor of the Exchequer as well as Prime Minister,
and made his financial exposition when he moved that the
treaty be taken into consideration. The duty of the Go-
vernment now is to give the house an opportunity of ex-
pressing its opinion on every article of the present treaty.
That, I believe, is the proper and constitutional course, nor
will any other course be satisfactory to the country.
THE DISEMBODIED MILITIA.

On the question that the Speaker leave the chair, for
going into Committee of Supply,
Mr. PALK, according to notice, called the attention of
the house to the great expense incurred in raising and
training a regiment of militia, so as to make it fit for per-
manent duty ; he also asked the Secretary for War what
arrangements he contemplated for filling up the vacancy in
the numbers in the array that will be occasioned by the dis-
embodiment of the militia regiments ? The militia had suf-
fered from the practice of one Ministry reversing the policy
and undoing the work of another. The militia was an ex-
pensive force, and if organised and maintained as a perma-
nent body would be a reserve from which the regular army
could be reinforced by regiments and battalions. It was a
force no Government could hastily get rid of. Now, he
understood 12,000 of the militia were to be disbanded, and
the number to be supplied by the regiments coming home
from India. He thought the militia should be kept up as a
reserve, and to furnish garrisons for their present fortified
places, and those that might be hereafter erected. If the
Government would confine themselves to ordinary, times,
when there was no fear of foreign invasion, to a force of
10,000 men, they would have a well-organised and useful
force, which could be called out without that detriment to
the agricultural interest which the calling out of large bodies
of men for short periods of training necessarily inflicted. He
should like to know to what extent the disembodiment was to
be carried. The estimates gave no information on that point.
However peaceable our relations with Fiance might be at this
moment, he trusted the right hon. gentleman would calmly
consider the state of our foreign relations. The commercial
treaty did not appear to be going on quite so smoothly as was
perhaps origin,ally supposed. It had been said in that house
that the Government were so sanguine they should be able to
pass this measure, and that it would re-unite the bonds of
peace so strongly, that they had not thought it necessary to
considerwhat the effect of its rejection would be on the minds
of the Emperor of the French and the French people. That
was a most important ingredient in the case. The French
people were not %Accustomed to the inconsistencies of our
Legislature as we were, and he thought it extremely possible
that if the treaty were not adopted by that house some feeling
of irritation would be created in their minds. Entertaining
that opinion, he thought would bo meat dangerous and ill-
advised to disembody one single regiment until this matter
were settled. It would be most unwise to do anything that
should diminish the defences of the country. Whatever the
number of regiments to return from India, he should, at tha
present juncture, welcome their approach with the greatest
satisfaction. Even with them, with the militia, and all the
volunteers that could be raised, there would not be a man too
many. When a Ministry had difficult negotiations on hand,
or a difficult policy to follow, the best force he could have was
a large arrny well appointed. (Hear, bear.)
Sir J. FERGUSSON hoped the right hon. gentleman the
Secretary of State fer War would, in the statement he was
about to make to the house, give them some information as
to the intentions of the Government with regard to the
militia. It was very important both to the country anal to the
army that they should have a large force of militia, whether
embodied or disembodied; but he was afraid it
ould be
found, when the return of the hon. member for Middlesex
was produced, that the number of the militia bore a very
small proportion to the nominal amount voted by Parlia-
ment. The number of absentees on the books of regimeuts
had been found to be increasing at every annual training,
and the force now available, in all probability, was not ever
60 per cent. of the Parliamentary vote. He did not speak
with a knowledge of the subject. In the militia regiment he
had the honour to command there had been for two or three
years an accumulation of absentees most annoying to offi-
cers and prejudicial to the public service. Had the War-
office permitted them to strike off the absentees from that
regiment two years ago, there would have been no difficulty
in filling up the numers. But during the last two years
there were fresh absentees, and they were cumbered with
the names of those who were nominally members since the
conclusion of the Crimean war, but had long since enlisted
fraudulently in regiments of the line. These men received
two bounties, and the right hon. gentleman would do well
to put an end to suck a system. He wanted to know the
course the Government intended to pursue with respect to
the embodiment of the militia from time to time. Without
disparaging the services of the volunteer corps, Government
would do well not to neglect or allow the old constitutional
force of the country to fall into decay.
Colonel DIXON was g'ad this subject had been brought
forward, although it had not neat the support it deserved when
he had introduced it. He admitted that thereilitiaregiments
were raised from the lo west class of society, but discipline and
good treatment had made them a most admirable national
force. The case of the junior officers of militia, thrown desti-
tute on the world, was a very hard one; and it was to be
regretted that the Secretary of State for War should have
met their claims the other night with the simple remark
that lie thought these young men had derived great advan •
Cage from having been two or three years in the service.
From the nature of the questions constantly beim.. put in
that house it was undeniable that there existed in the public
mind a lurking suspicion that the political horizon was not
quite so clear as we had hitherto fancied it. If, therefore,
we were to have a militia at all it ought to be kept in a
state in which, should its services be called upon at any
moment, it would be found perfectly efficient. A certain
though number of the reiments should always be embodied, even
ough the
that would be embodiment of each regiment should last only
present
f a short time.
impos-
sible to understand how every regiment Then we might rely upon having, fur
that was embodied, six or seven others
thedo w
mi n in case of need. It was impos-
heoswttmthaeteistefomr
doifsetoboo,doiora
tlida,bwehpiul
et
to be taken for the embodied militia was £300,000.
a
Was the militia to be
service or was it not f Were the
to
be
wanted;s ents in order, though they were
officers to keep their re
never likely or was the force to be treated as